Bitcoin Forum

hi,
I see that price trend is influenced by the amount of crypto bought or sold but I don't know the level that can create that panic to demand you to buy or sell too...
More, have you considered organizing yourself in groups for trading based on a schedule? For instance, you create  a group of 10-100 people, you agree by voting what you'll do, sell or buy and then you go in group by buying or selling knowing exact timing? Is this kind of strategy profitable? Did you try it? Wanna try it? :)

cheers

That might be considered a pump and dump (illegal).

Just go to the exchange you're using and check the order book. From that you should be able to work out how much fiat it'd take to move btcs price up $1,$1,$100,$1000. You could also try to work out how many orders get passed to the exchange and how many you'd expect to see (if you want the order book to move with you).

I don't know how many but I do believe the estimates to be around 10,000 worth of bitcoin to see a considerable change in the prices, and that is if we are talking on a macro scale of things, in my opinion, everyone who holds bitcoin has the ability to influence the price, individual hodlers that do not have a lot can affect the prices because of their sheer numbers which could amount to tons of bitcoin if together they are all combined. If you can organize a lot of people then I think that you can create a price trend but that can rarely happen like what happened at the Gamestop stocks suddenly running high, but that organization will be called a market manipulation no matter what social standing you are in. FUDs can create panics that can influence the prices because people are selling out of fear and distrust in bitcoin.
It will be illegal if you get caught, ordinary people organizing will be difficult to get litigated with that kind of scheme while the rich people can get away with it because they have the law on their leash.

The act is illegal regardless if you are caught doing it or not. I don't know if this kind of things is really illegal on an unregulated cryptomarket.

Signal group is already trending especially on telegram. Many TG group are giving free signal and offering a VIP lounge for for premium signal. In reality, this kind of group is just a signal in disguise but they are really using it to organize a pump and dump scheme using subscriber's money that following the signal.

No that's not how the law works. There's probably some fancy workaround that doesn't take much for make it legal. (eg making a group and saying it's for "educational purposes only" in a disclaimer).

I'm clueless about this but if you want to play the market, give some hypes and let the market controlled by you, then you have to accumulate them all. Sounds like you are owning the whole city and everything is in your control.

But forget about it. You don't need to do that and make an influence on the market just to make money in crypto because no matter what you do, you'll never be successful. If you are serious about trading, better make a fair play, not to harm others and do stupid things just to satisfy your greediness. Knows also the word ENOUGH.

this is called group pumping, its not advisable although some people do it but majority of partakers are losers. they groom thier group and give buying signals and sometimes take profit percentage but you can lose all your funds. they usually buy the token they want to pump before everyone and then give the signal to the majority and then sell off before anyone. these types of signals usually have share candle stick of buy and sell.

If you're talking about the recent price increase of Dogecoin right after fuelled by the memes that came from market influencers and now we saw that the XRP has a huge pump due to the price manipulation of the group which is clearly a pump and dump group.

That's right, it's a pump and dump group which is they only know how to make a better move because you don't know when the exact point to exit the market when there is a pump.  It's very risky for you if you want to join that kind of group, most likely, the organizer of the group will have more benefits than the members.

For example, when Elon Musk changed his Twitter bio with the hashtag name of Bitcoin.  At that moment Bitcoin was suddenly increasing with no specific causes why it has an increase.  Therefore, there's no strategy and I suggest focus on Bitcoin because it has less manipulation than other altcoins, after Dogecoin and XRP had a sudden rise, what next?

STAY AWAY from the market influence price trend, they are just hyping the price.

I had no clue such organized sell/buy is illegal!? can you help with some reference? law number, ToS snippet from any exchange, etc? Many thanks!

Have never been in the group like you said.
For now I follow my own heart and mind in selling and buying crypto and also I do analysis based on existing charts, for now it looks good enough for myself.

Maybe a method like what you said 10-100 people in a group that sell / buy crypto, maybe, it has been done by investors to boost certain crypto prices.
Well, if you think about it, it might be profitable with the condition that you buy in large quantities, if you count and multiply 100 people by and focus on one crypto, because the price of crypto goes up based on the buyer, maybe.
Logic, stock is running low, many enthusiasts, of course the price is expensive / high, which is clearly not our method, maybe companies or entrepreneurs consist of 10-100 entrepreneurs.

maybe we will resort to such a method, in the next 1-2 years.

To manipulate order books, you must have big capital to set up big sell walls and big buy walls.

Fortunately, the capital is different with different coins.

• Big volume coins: big capital
• Smaller volume coins: smaller capital

It means in the market, there are big whales and small whales. Amazing right?

Price will be stagnant in the range is decided (manipulated) by big buy walls and big sell walls.

I don't catch your question completely. I guess your question relates to fake trading volume as well

• Bitwise Asset Management -- Presentation to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (https://www.sec.gov/comments/sr-nysearca-2019-01/srnysearca201901-5164833-183434.pdf)
• Github source code to run Bitcoin Volume Validator (https://github.com/Whalepool/Bitcoin-Volume-Validator)

it's written above that pump and dump or organized trading (buying or selling) is illegal so I was wondering where such rule is being mentioned...

It's not good when you make money out of thin air. Always remember that making money that way comes with risks and in this case, it's just considered as an illegal activity because you manually cause price change and destroy the purpose of fair trading.

Usually, that's done on new and unknown altcoins, mostly in order to fool some people. When people see rising altcoins, they think to better buy them now than later. Those groups sell coin in high price and then dumb the price. The opposite happens too, people behind coin create a telegram group and put some people there, "signal seekers" who want to earn money easily and cheat them, make group members to buy coin at a high price.

fair trading? is this trading business fair anyway when in real life people are working 8-10hrs/day for $50/day or less, money that a trader can do them in minutes with almost no education?

Here I'm not referring to those who are new coin inventors/investors with the only purpose nowadays is to scam but actually to top marketcap coin traders... nevertheless, it's mentioned this kind of movement is illegal which I find very unusual since it's a trade...regardless if it's crypto or amazon books  :D

I don't think that the average individual can manage that. In order to do so, you'll be required to own a large amount of that coin and take great risks. I've seen it happen quite a few times to be honest. Recently, I was trying to sell Ethereum, there was this one transaction, selling 30 coins, valued at approximately $40.000, forcing smaller traders to sell at a lower price than the 30 ETH transaction.

As a result, I sold at a lower price than I anticipated.

if you are a person who has a lot of knowledge then you can just make a strategy like that and enjoy your own profit,
as many people have done on twitter and telegram, only tokens or altcoins with a low volume can be manipulated by someone,
and of course that very risky and make other people more likely to lose, because high volatility makes flash pump possible,
for a trader it is better to avoid this strategy!

Not a smart idea because it will not even worth the risk you take. The pump dump groups have a better success rate compared to individual speculation/market manipulation, low trading volume altcoins will be the best choices for managing the risks. First come first serves, so be quick and don't mess with the order book unless you know what you are doing. Depth of the market can swallow the pre-orders if there is another predator around the corner.

Well, it is up to you if you will join the pump and dump group and there is no one will prohibit you. But beware if you wanted to join, always remember this word ^[RISK] when you are want to join the group of a pump and dumb. A pump and dump is just a fooling with someone who doesn't know, its kinda tip to the newcomers in trading, and I hope they are all aware regarding this matter.
But when it comes to influencing others, that is what I did not understand.

Maybe if 10-100 were all like elon musk I think that's fine, but then again, depending on the number 10-100 in the category and their access to running the market, will that have an impact? resentful groups that are built must be based on the same goal.
Unfortunately, to gather 10 people is very difficult here, because both of us are still working on cryptocurrency where I live. and we still survive from 2015 until now. we had a hard time finding anything else out there, apart from using social media.

I think it isn't exactly a rule about it, I tried finding one but there wasn't really any BUT it should be encompassed in laws that encompass Fraud. Pump and dump schemes is technically you lying to people since you falsely promote a stock/product to increase its prices temporarily then sell it to your own advantage. Quite simple to understand that said situations are about Person A basically lying to Person B, C, D and more and running off with their money once they are done. Ponzi schemes should possibly be included in such frauds as well.

In the end, Trading however you want is quite up to you, most people just share their researches while most choose to do in on their own. There really isn't any guarantee that being in a group has advantages, since a group could just reach the same result, which may not necessarily be what the future would hold.

There's a lot of pump and dump group playing in the market, even though they don't agree at the same time but it looks like they can really move the market up, just like what happened on Doge where I see a post from their telegram group of 100k individuals I guess, they decided to move the market up and now, its down again.

It takes guts to organize such group and you must be good on talking to people, this is quiet alarming to see such group but we can't do anything about it, those pump and dump group will continue to manipulate the market so as an individual trader, its better to stay focus on your holdings and don't focus much on the hype.

That is not the only one, in smaller places we are talking about easier movements, but even in bitcoin we could have a pump and dump just like we have seen recently. Elon Musk wrote bitcoin on his twitter bio and suddenly bitcoin moved from 32k to 38k prices for example, which is not really shocking for anyone who has seen his influence before but it is obvious that we are in the same boat as the altcoins when we are talking about bitcoin.

Definitely it requires a lot more money, probably around 10-20+ million dollars all going into the market at the very same time, maybe even more money, but the reality is that it could still happen no matter how much it costs. Sure altcoins could be done with just few thousand dollars, depending on which altcoin, but only difference between a small altcoin and bitcoin is the amount, otherwise both could be done.

There have been lots of signals and pump & dump groups created along the time, especially in the crypto space which is quite unregulated. However it is very hard to influence the price anymore especially on higher capitalized coins like Bitcoin, Ethereum, LTC. Unless you are an ultra high net-worth individual or you represent an off-shore hedge fund which does not have to obey strict regulations regarding the assets and actions you can take on the market, you should take your thought from this kind of actions. Personally I discourage both pump&dump and signals groups. Besides being illegal, a lot of beginners get caught in this schemes and lose important sums of money.

No,I have never participated in pump/dump groups and I don't plan to organize such group.
If it was so easy for pump/dump groups to manipulate the cryptocurrency prices,then the internet would be full of pump/dump crypto groups.It's really difficult to gather 100 people,who have enough capital and are willing to unite their forces in trying to manipulate the markets.
I don't know why pump and dump groups are considered illegal.Isn't a trust fund or a hedge fund organized on a similar principle-Many people put their capital into a fund,that is managed by a few skilled traders.
The only different with pump/dump groups is that the traders perform the trades by themselves,without having to give their capital to a trust fund manager.

The pump and dump group is a practice that is not allowed, because it will make many people suffer losses because of the FOMO they make. But for example DOGE does not only come from the pump and dump group, but also because the tweet from Elon Musk which we know is very influential. Whatever you tweet will increase.

The person who created the pump and dump group would have bought the coins first, which would be used as a pump practice. groups of thousands of people can create flash pumps as well as flash dumps. Hype like this is very detrimental, many will lose money. Even though they indirectly lost, they still held the coins they bought, but the price of these coins fell by 20%-to 50%.
But behind all these losses, some people who already have coins that will be pumped, whether intentionally or not, will feel lucky because of the drastic increase.

Well pumps and dumps are bad but attention from Elon Musk is a good thing since it brings more people to crypto. Safest bet is top 10 coins which prices can't be manipulated so easy. Rest can be affected buy pumps and dumps but only for shorter time.

Elon Musk gave public attention to the cryptocurrency as well as the DOGE coin he idolized. Just look at how much he looks when he makes twitter status and makes DOGE coins increase 1000% in a day. The top 10 coins can also be manipulated, Bitcoin alone can be manipulated by several groups called whales and that is very influential.

When you  create groups to buy and sell at the same time, it is what’s called P&D Groups (pump and dumps), and in regulated market it is considered as something illegal to do.

I cannot tell if that’s the same with cryptocurrency trading since it is not regulated by the government, but it seems totally wrong to me since most of the people that does that are usually targeting small cap coins that they will easily pump and dump and then render these coins useless which is totally wrong.

You are simply talking about pump and dump group which it had been known in this market and yes, you can do that but you would really be getting's lots of
negative feedbacks or criticisms towards to on that.Why? You are most likely trying to deceive out specially those noobs around.

Also you cant be sure that out of that 100 member of yours will really not tend to secure their profits out first when you do all decide to pump a certain coin?

They will surely make out some assurance and wouldn't are if he's part of the group on having the same motive. Good luck into that.

The answer is no.

If you wanted to influence the market better do it religiously without hurting anyone. And I don't think we need to influence the market for the sake to make money.

If you have the guts of doing it, then have tried it. Let's see what will be the result or you will just end up losing the same to the previous pump and dump group.