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Title: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Hydrogen on March 11, 2021, 11:33:16 PM Quote Thieves in Turkey switched painted paving stones for copper Commodities trader Mercuria Energy Group Ltd. struck a deal last summer to buy $36 million of copper from a Turkish supplier. But when the cargoes started arriving in China, all it found were containers full of painted rocks. The saga unfolds like a gangland thriller, with the Swiss trading house saying it’s been the victim of cargo fraud. Before its journey from a port near Istanbul to China even began, about 6,000 tons of blister copper in more than 300 containers were switched with jagged paving stones, spray-painted to resemble the semi-refined metal. The bizarre case highlights commodity traders’ vulnerability to fraud, even when security and inspection controls are in place. In 2014 and 2015, Mercuria took provisions to cover potential losses after metal contained in a warehouse in the Chinese port of Qingdao was seized by authorities as part of fraud investigation. Turkish police took 13 people into custody in relation to the faux-copper scheme. Mercuria, one of the five-biggest independent oil traders in the world, is seeking redress in both Turkish courts and a U.K. arbitration case against the copper supplier, Bietsan. It’s also filed a formal criminal complaint with Turkish police and prosecutors alleging cargo substitution and insurance fraud, leaving the authorities to determine who’s responsible. Several calls to Bietsan’s offices in Tekirdag went unanswered. “Suspects have been taken under custody who are thought to be involved in the various parts of this organized crime against Mercuria,” the Geneva-based Mercuria said in a written statement in which it thanked the Istanbul Financial Crimes Department. The story was pieced together from legal documents, interviews and local media reports. Copper Switched Last June, Mercuria agreed to buy copper from Bietsan, a Turkish supplier it had done business with before, according to Sinan Borovali, the trading house’s lawyer in Turkey. It appears that copper was initially loaded into the first shipment of containers, before being surveyed by an inspection company. Seals used to prevent fraud were then affixed to the containers. But under the cover of darkness, it is alleged the containers were opened and the copper replaced with paving stones, Borovali of Istanbul law firm KYB said in an interview. The fraudsters switched between fake and real container seals in an effort to avoid detection. As ships left Marport terminal in the port of Ambarli every few days, the same thing happened: the copper was secretly unloaded at night and replaced with painted rocks. “This was how they did it,” Borovali said. With the vessels at sea, Mercuria paid $36 million in five installments with the last payment made on Aug. 20, 2020, according to documents provided by the commodity trader to Turkish investigators. The fraud wasn’t discovered until the ships began arriving in the Chinese port of Lianyungang later that month. By then, all eight vessels were en route to China. Organized Crime “There has been a criminal investigation petition by the buyer against the seller and two intermediaries,” Turkish police said in a statement. “It’s been determined that the incident is the outcome of fraud perpetrated in an organized manner.” Normally, in such cases of non-delivery a trading house could make a claim against a cargo’s insurance policy. But Mercuria found that just one out of seven contracts used by the Turkish company to insure the cargo was real. The rest had been forged. The 13 suspected fraudsters were taken into custody this month in a series of police raids. Some have since been allowed to leave custody and placed under house arrest, according to local newswire reports. More hearings on the case are expected from this week. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Trader-Buys-36-Million-of-Copper-and-Gets-16011989.php .... The long history of precious metals markets equate commodities like gold with stability and safety. "Just buy gold, you'll be safe," is consensus accepted advice. But has the time finally come to question those long held views? In an era where $36 million in copper commodities are hijacked and lost. Reliability of commodity trading/shipping appears on a steep decline. Could an outlier precedent could be emerging where commodities like gold no longer represent the safe havens they once did? Experts and analysts claim gold and silver are undervalued. But did they remember to price in the cost of counterfeit gold and silver bars flooding markets. Cases like these where even insurance that is supposed to protect commodity shipments from loss turn out to be forged and fraudulent. If negative trends like these continue, could a case be emerging for bitcoin being a better inflation protected asset than gold. On the basis of commodity trading, shipping and insurance not the reliable and wholesome industries they used to be. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: The Sceptical Chymist on March 12, 2021, 12:03:48 AM Interesting story. Makes me wonder why a Swiss trading firm would want all that physical copper, and the article doesn't say unless I missed it.
Now as far as your comment, Hydrogen, I'm not sure I'd lose any faith in precious metals as investments because of this. The prices for gold, silver, and probably all the base metals too, are determined by paper traders and I don't think any of those fake gold/silver coins and bars really matter all that much. I'm also pretty sure the copper market won't suffer a bit because of this bit of shenanigans, which seems like a completely idiotic crime to commit IMO. How did the perpetrators not think they weren't going to get caught? It's almost laughable. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: bitsurfer2014 on March 12, 2021, 12:32:48 AM That incident was a brazen act of stupidity coming from those criminals who thought they can escape the teeth of law. Meanwhile, I think the buyer company has been complacent enough that they did little to ensure that the copper cargo would be accompanied by their own representative and the insurance papers verified for their veracity considering that the transaction involves a considerable amount of money. Imho.
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: franky1 on March 12, 2021, 01:16:25 AM yep the flaws of commodities trading.
people playing digital markets where digits are backed by physical products. but those physical products dont move or get inspected enough to ensure the backed commodity is still real and valuable same went for fiat when it was gold backed. no one was allowed to audit the fed reserve its the downside of 'backed assets' you have to trust the vault/reserve/warehouse isnt fractionally reserving or syphoning off the pile Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: franky1 on March 12, 2021, 01:21:19 AM That incident was a brazen act of stupidity coming from those criminals who thought they can escape the teeth of law. Meanwhile, I think the buyer company has been complacent enough that they did little to ensure that the copper cargo would be accompanied by their own representative and the insurance papers verified for their veracity considering that the transaction involves a considerable amount of money. Imho. commodity traders.. dont seek to trade to get delivery. they hold 7day contracts where if they dont sell it on day 8 it triggers a delivery to them. so they play with 7 day contracts and always sell on day 7. meaning the next trader sells on day 7. meaning the next trader sells on day 7.. meaning for 21 days it doesnt move with fast trading by commodity traders circulating the stocks. the goods can be held up in warehouses for years. if traders never sell on to industry buyers think about it. 13 people arrested... hmm.. 300 containers containing hundreds of thousands of tiles. all individually handsprayed... that takes a few months.. not a 2 day lay-over by not triggering a delivery.. no one inspects the containers.. they just sit there doing nothing until a delivery is triggered Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Darker45 on March 12, 2021, 02:10:37 AM As far as being a long-term store of value is concerned, gold is still dependable. Within such context, I think "Just buy gold, you'll be safe" is still true. If you have an immense amount of wealth and you want to keep it in such a way that its value is well-preserved for your great great grandchildren, I guess gold is the perfect choice. Of course, only if certain conditions are met like it is well-secured, proven to be genuine, and so on.
Anyway, this news reminded me of the gold scandal less than a year ago. $36 million in copper proves too small to the $2 billion loan availed by one of the largest gold jewelry manufacturers in China. Kingold Jewelry Inc. used 83 tons of fake gold as collateral.[1] On the basis of Bitcoin being easily verifiable, easily stored, easily transferred, resistant to counterfeiting, and so on, Bitcoin is far better than precious metals. But as a long-term SOV covering generations after generations, I think gold is reliable. [1] https://news.bitcoin.com/gold-industry-83-tons-fake-gold-bars-secure-2-billion-loans-china/ Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Twentyonepaylots on March 12, 2021, 02:21:08 AM If the shipper is a trusted partner of the buyer, then there's a higher tendency that the foul move was made by the logistics. Because there's no way you'll cross your long-running partner for $36 million worth of copper when you could get a consistent buyer that will consistently make you money in the long run. If this is not the case, then it's best to interrogate the seller.
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: philipma1957 on March 12, 2021, 02:48:52 AM As far as being a long-term store of value is concerned, gold is still dependable. Within such context, I think "Just buy gold, you'll be safe" is still true. If you have an immense amount of wealth and you want to keep it in such a way that its value is well-preserved for your great great grandchildren, I guess gold is the perfect choice. Of course, only if certain conditions are met like it is well-secured, proven to be genuine, and so on. Anyway, this news reminded me of the gold scandal less than a year ago. $36 million in copper proves too small to the $2 billion loan availed by one of the largest gold jewelry manufacturers in China. Kingold Jewelry Inc. used 83 tons of fake gold as collateral.[1] On the basis of Bitcoin being easily verifiable, easily stored, easily transferred, resistant to counterfeiting, and so on, Bitcoin is far better than precious metals. But as a long-term SOV covering generations after generations, I think gold is reliable. [1] https://news.bitcoin.com/gold-industry-83-tons-fake-gold-bars-secure-2-billion-loans-china/ Long term this thought process could cost you a fortune. Golden asteroids are being visited by NASA/Musk and if they figure a way to get it back for use gold will become as common as copper. I am 64 and I am not rich. But if I had billions invested in gold and was still earning and stacking gold with out stacking BTC I would be gambling that gold stays scarce. For no reason other than its been good for a long time it will stay good. There was a time seashells had value for trade. Just saying gold could drop a lot in the 10-20 year time slot. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Sithara007 on March 12, 2021, 03:03:18 AM The issue for Mercuria Energy Group is that the legal process in Turkey is very slow, as well as corrupt and mired in bureaucracy. I don't think that they are going to get the reimbursement anytime soon (in case they are going to get it). This is the price you pay, when you are dealing with third world nations. I have heard similar stories from countries such as Russia and some of the African nations. Hopefully, next time they will purchase copper from Australia or some other country where the traders are more honest.
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: bitsurfer2014 on March 12, 2021, 03:34:06 AM That incident was a brazen act of stupidity coming from those criminals who thought they can escape the teeth of law. Meanwhile, I think the buyer company has been complacent enough that they did little to ensure that the copper cargo would be accompanied by their own representative and the insurance papers verified for their veracity considering that the transaction involves a considerable amount of money. Imho. commodity traders.. dont seek to trade to get delivery. they hold 7day contracts where if they dont sell it on day 8 it triggers a delivery to them. so they play with 7 day contracts and always sell on day 7. meaning the next trader sells on day 7. meaning the next trader sells on day 7.. meaning for 21 days it doesnt move with fast trading by commodity traders circulating the stocks. the goods can be held up in warehouses for years. if traders never sell on to industry buyers think about it. 13 people arrested... hmm.. 300 containers containing hundreds of thousands of tiles. all individually handsprayed... that takes a few months.. not a 2 day lay-over by not triggering a delivery.. no one inspects the containers.. they just sit there doing nothing until a delivery is triggered Hmmm... I wonder why they haven't used any commercial letters of credit as a way to both secure their transaction. Anyway this could serve as a lesson to all international traders. On a side note, I think a digital letters of credit could be implemented in a blockchain as a DeFi platform to cater to international trades though I don't know yet a blockchain project that that offers similar services that functions like a traditional letters of credit. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Kong Hey Pakboy on March 12, 2021, 04:10:21 AM That incident was a brazen act of stupidity coming from those criminals who thought they can escape the teeth of law. Meanwhile, I think the buyer company has been complacent enough that they did little to ensure that the copper cargo would be accompanied by their own representative and the insurance papers verified for their veracity considering that the transaction involves a considerable amount of money. Imho. I am pretty sure that the company don't mind that their precious metals were stolen because as far as I know, those are insured in a way or that they can easily be recovered from the thieves, not to mention that those stolen coppers are going to have a hard time being sold in the market because it is tainted and the only way for it to be sold is when they don't sell it publicly which is the likely thing to happen.Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: bitsurfer2014 on March 12, 2021, 04:15:27 AM That incident was a brazen act of stupidity coming from those criminals who thought they can escape the teeth of law. Meanwhile, I think the buyer company has been complacent enough that they did little to ensure that the copper cargo would be accompanied by their own representative and the insurance papers verified for their veracity considering that the transaction involves a considerable amount of money. Imho. I am pretty sure that the company don't mind that their precious metals were stolen because as far as I know, those are insured in a way or that they can easily be recovered from the thieves, not to mention that those stolen coppers are going to have a hard time being sold in the market because it is tainted and the only way for it to be sold is when they don't sell it publicly which is the likely thing to happen.Ideally, the use of any insurance policy is recommended for such transactions but according to the report, the buyer has been duped ... Quote Normally, in such cases of non-delivery a trading house could make a claim against a cargo’s insurance policy. But Mercuria found that just one out of seven contracts used by the Turkish company to insure the cargo was real. The rest had been forged. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Silberman on March 12, 2021, 04:17:31 AM The long history of precious metals markets equate commodities like gold with stability and safety. "Just buy gold, you'll be safe," is consensus accepted advice. But has the time finally come to question those long held views? You nailed it, the market of precious metals can offer protection against inflation so for those that are not convinced on bitcoin yet it can be a good way to protect themselves, but the issue of the authenticity of precious metals is something that cannot be ignored, in the case you present it was easy to see those rocks were not the copper Mercuria was expecting, but in the case of gold there are falsifications so realistic that it is impossible to tell with the naked eye which gold is real and which is not, while in the case of bitcoin even if there are low quality clones there are not fake bitcoins out there and this is a huge advantage.In an era where $36 million in copper commodities are hijacked and lost. Reliability of commodity trading/shipping appears on a steep decline. Could an outlier precedent could be emerging where commodities like gold no longer represent the safe havens they once did? Experts and analysts claim gold and silver are undervalued. But did they remember to price in the cost of counterfeit gold and silver bars flooding markets. Cases like these where even insurance that is supposed to protect commodity shipments from loss turn out to be forged and fraudulent. If negative trends like these continue, could a case be emerging for bitcoin being a better inflation protected asset than gold. On the basis of commodity trading, shipping and insurance not the reliable and wholesome industries they used to be. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Darker45 on March 12, 2021, 04:27:28 AM ~snip~ Long term this thought process could cost you a fortune. Golden asteroids are being visited by NASA/Musk and if they figure a way to get it back for use gold will become as common as copper. I am 64 and I am not rich. But if I had billions invested in gold and was still earning and stacking gold with out stacking BTC I would be gambling that gold stays scarce. For no reason other than its been good for a long time it will stay good. There was a time seashells had value for trade. Just saying gold could drop a lot in the 10-20 year time slot. There was what was called Psyche 16, an asteroid believed to contain "enough gold to make everyone on Earth a billionaire." Three things, though: 1. It has already been discovered in the mid 1800's. No mining ever took place since then. 2. Very costly future explorations are planned mainly for scientific research rather than mining or financial exploration. 3. If, after several decades, gold mining will commence far away from earth, the production cost would be very high, which gives us an idea that the venturing company wouldn't be pricing their proceeds very cheap. They'd be extra careful not to cause the gold market to plunge into worthlessness or else... However, the most important point is that despite the idea of space or asteroid mining becoming a sort of a craze and has even caused a certain race in the field, it is probably mostly just talks, not even cost-benefit or profit-oriented financial talks but ones which involve fundamental mathematical formula on how it is even made possible. Anyway, just saying asteroid mining is still a remote possibility that won't devalue earth's gold, at least not in the next century. [1] https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/9378480/giant-golden-asteroid-psyche-61-billionaire-nasa-2022/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-12-21/space-mining-on-asteroids-is-never-going-to-happen Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Kong Hey Pakboy on March 12, 2021, 05:04:58 AM I am pretty sure that the company don't mind that their precious metals were stolen because as far as I know, those are insured in a way or that they can easily be recovered from the thieves, not to mention that those stolen coppers are going to have a hard time being sold in the market because it is tainted and the only way for it to be sold is when they don't sell it publicly which is the likely thing to happen. Ideally, the use of any insurance policy is recommended for such transactions but according to the report, the buyer has been duped ... Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: bluebit25 on March 12, 2021, 05:35:52 AM In the country I live in is also starting to add this market to a new investment portfolio, I do not know too much about it, but heard from some friends that this market is guaranteed by the state. it's safe. Through the story of my friends I still cannot understand why it is possible to cheat so explicitly, are they too stupid or not?
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: jseverson on March 12, 2021, 06:17:25 AM If negative trends like these continue, could a case be emerging for bitcoin being a better inflation protected asset than gold. I feel like cases like this definitely add to the conversation, especially since counterfeiters are becoming more sophisticated in general (https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/glitters-not-gold-fake-gold-silver-coins-flooding-market-n591201), but I'd say it's still way too early to think Bitcoin will pull ahead. Gold literally has millennias of track record (I'm sure it has endured the same problems with counterfeiting and shipping for just as long) over BTC, not to mention it's basically the money of central banks. It's very difficult to imagine that gold will slip in the foreseeable future. Bitcoin does solve the counterfeiting and shipping problems, but it also comes with issues of its own. One of the biggest I can see that can impact its long-term value is that it's still very vulnerable to legislation -- sure, the network itself cannot be interfered with, but I'm pretty sure most people won't bother once they have to start spoofing their locations, they can't trade conveniently because exchanges are banned, or they're threatened with jail time, etc. Things have definitely been trending for the better as of late though (and a lot better and faster than I would have expected, at that), so I do believe the flippening will eventually happen, but probably not within our lifetime. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: davis196 on March 12, 2021, 06:35:55 AM Quote In an era where $36 million in copper commodities are hijacked and lost. Reliability of commodity trading/shipping appears on a steep decline. It seems wrong to make generalized conclusions about the safety of the precious metals markets based on such theft.I still believe that the precious metal markets are safe and secure and such cases are an exception. I really hope that the buyer will get a refund and the criminals will get caught. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: iv4n on March 12, 2021, 07:57:56 AM Quote about 6,000 tons of blister copper in more than 300 containers were switched with jagged paving stones, spray-painted to resemble the semi-refined metal Amazing! think about it. 13 people arrested... hmm.. 300 containers containing hundreds of thousands of tiles. all individually handsprayed... that takes a few months.. not a 2 day lay-over I can understand spraying, they were doing that in some warehouse, slowly (if they started on time)... like preparation time! :) But can you imagine this entire action? One truck can carry 20-30 tons (some special ones can carry more), so roughly 200-300 trucks, you probably need a few forklifts... they must be doing that for a while, looks to me like impossible to do this switch in just 2-3 days! Or maybe they had containers, so one container with fake copper comes, one container with real copper gets out!? Those 13 people are probably low ranked workers, and painters! :) Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: so98nn on March 12, 2021, 11:11:06 AM Well there is thing like letter of credit, Post Dated Cheques, Bank Bonds and more with which you can always secure your funds. This is the common practice for the international shipping or cargo when its B2B transaction. I am not sure how the hell they made $36 million worth of transaction without such methods?
They could have followed the proper procedure to save those millions of dollars. They can still file the law suit though. However they will have to fight for it in the country of origin! That’s gonna be hard shit. Lolz Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: paxmao on March 12, 2021, 11:30:59 AM This depicts the problem of the physical assets and the "real world", it is difficult to decentralise, but it is nearly impossible to have thrustless exchange.
I see this as a PoS problem, that is, you as buyer will be staking your reputation, yet having a trusted escrow for money and equivalents is not too difficult. The vendor and the logistics company will be staking their reputation. From this we can figure out what went wrong: a) The buyer trusted a insufficiently reputable vendor? Should they have asked to match the insufficient reputation with a economic stake? b) Should the seller have asked for a sufficient stake from the transporter, such that would cover the value at risk? Or simply just take some insurance and avoid all this :) Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Kakmakr on March 12, 2021, 11:42:54 AM Yea, I watched "Best of Pawn Stars" Season 1 episode 1 and some guy brought a bunch of Silver to the pawn shop that he wanted to sell. Rick (owner) of the Pawn Shop had to drill a whole into the Silver bar to test if it was not filled with something like lead. (We not even talking about lower grade Gold bars that are covered with 24 Carat Gold.)
This is not what you have to do with bitcoins, if you have the Private key.. you are 100% sure that it will give you access to the content of the wallet and the bitcoins that it represent. (It is not something physical, but every Satoshi is real and verifiable on the Blockchain) When you use dodgy Exchanges, they can fake the bitcoins on their internal ledger... but if you have the Private key.. you know that you own all the Satoshi that it is linked to in that wallet. ;D Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: DrBeer on March 12, 2021, 12:14:39 PM People have always been prone to dishonest enrichment. Somewhere more often, somewhere less often, somewhere stupid and somewhere cunning and clever. Neither the level of life, nor faith, nor religion, nor gender do not interfere with the realization of these plans. It has been and always will be. The only way is to instill respect for private property, and create conditions when a person understands that it is illegal to do this and that he will be punished for it. Of course, high-tech solutions will help reduce such risks and increase disclosure, but it will not work to reduce to 0
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: franky1 on March 15, 2021, 03:38:58 AM Hmmm... I wonder why they haven't used any commercial letters of credit as a way to both secure their transaction. Anyway this could serve as a lesson to all international traders. On a side note, I think a digital letters of credit could be implemented in a blockchain as a DeFi platform to cater to international trades though I don't know yet a blockchain project that that offers similar services that functions like a traditional letters of credit. what you dont realise is while the physical copper might be being transported from a smelting facility to a secure store warehouse at a port that copper has been passing through a dozen 'options' contracts by wall street day traders. they are signing over digital ownership. and as long as they dont hold their contracts for too long they dont have to get delivery. take last year. the oil contracts. wall street was trading them. then demand dropped from actual oil refineries due to covid. so wall street had no one to sell the contract to.. meaning the oil would have been shipped to wall street and flood the trading floor in oily tar.. so to avoid accepting delivery they panic sold all their contracts to literally anyone willing to take delivery. now if there was no dip in traders. they could have happily kept trading back and fourth. and the oil would have sat there for longer. the reason why copper sat there for so long was it was being traded non stop for months.. without being sold to an industry that had physical need. but when the contracts finally passed to a industry that wanted copper physically. they found the copper had been smuggled and swaped for rock. while at the port. digital credit or proper credit would not have changed a thing the problem is that goods should be mined and sold direct to end user industry. not locked in ports for months while its left to be digitally traded on markets Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: tbone777 on March 15, 2021, 07:53:47 AM Why he need real metal for trading? There are a lot of derivatives instead
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: 415jeremy on March 15, 2021, 08:07:32 AM Unprecedented. Just wondering. If I decide to invest in Tether gold, will it represent real gold or painted stones too.
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Kittygalore on March 15, 2021, 08:45:40 AM This could be a really good heist film idea to be honest, just change some nooks and crannies and you can get a good heist film out of this incident. It is pretty bad that the thieves got away with it but I don't think that it will be for far too long because $36 million worth of copper is not something you can easily clean so you can sell it without a hitch, and not to mention that they don't have a lot of ways to hide this kind of thing because any smelting process involving this is going to raise some flags.
Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Silberman on March 16, 2021, 12:28:12 AM Quote In an era where $36 million in copper commodities are hijacked and lost. Reliability of commodity trading/shipping appears on a steep decline. It seems wrong to make generalized conclusions about the safety of the precious metals markets based on such theft.I still believe that the precious metal markets are safe and secure and such cases are an exception. I really hope that the buyer will get a refund and the criminals will get caught. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: lixer on March 17, 2021, 06:39:45 PM I do not get how buyer never puts a guy around it constantly, like if you have a 36 million dollar copper, you hire someone to go check it out constantly, even few people so that there is always someone on that in shifts even when others sleep. I do not really get why people let these type of deals go this risky. However scammers are jailed at least that is a good thing, what did they expected? I mean you send someone and there is an end result, you have done a criminal act, and it is obviously there, how did they assume they would get out of jail time? The second you do this you are basically in jail 100% for sure.
Some people were let go because they had nothing to do with this, but 8 people were jailed from 10+ years to at least 5 years, that should be basically worth it if you ask me, if I get 1 million dollars I may spend 5 years in jail for it as well, depends on the jail of course. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: acquafredda on March 17, 2021, 06:48:58 PM Quote Normally, in such cases of non-delivery a trading house could make a claim against a cargo’s insurance policy. But Mercuria found that just one out of seven contracts used by the Turkish company to insure the cargo was real. The rest had been forged. That is the worst part :oThis is a $36 million trick! So there is nothing that can be done to even appeal to an insurance. It is very interesting because I connected this story to the FFP2 mask scam in Italy where the authorities realized that the CE certification was fake and based on a third-party certificate issued by...guess what? A turkish company. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: magneto on March 17, 2021, 10:16:11 PM This is as absurd, as it is a powerful illustration of why BTC is going to be the store of value around the globe going into the future.
The potential for fraud with precious metals is far too great and the costs of verifying the legitimacy of physical metals is way too high for it to be remotely feasible. Yet, people criticise BTC for its high transaction fees, which is objectively minuscule when compared to the transportation costs, costs associated with securing your metals, and costs of verification. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Shasha80 on March 18, 2021, 02:56:29 AM Therefore, nowadays many people choose Bitcoin as a safe haven compared to precious metal. because sometimes it has difficulties to distinguish
the real one from the fake. Even myself, it is difficult to distinguish real metals from fake ones. In fact, I once bought gold jewelry from my friend, then after a few years I was going to sell it, it turned out that I was buying fake gold jewelry. Now with Bitcoin I am more comfortable and safer to store my wealth, compared to buying precious metal. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Silberman on March 19, 2021, 03:42:04 AM This is as absurd, as it is a powerful illustration of why BTC is going to be the store of value around the globe going into the future. Most of that criticism is dishonest at best and ill intended at worst, the reason many think bitcoin has high costs is because the costs of bitcoin are upfront and anyone can see them, but most people never take the time to verify the precious metals they bought are in fact what they think they are, falsifying coins is very easy, counterfeiters can cover coins made of cheap metals with gold and even imitate the feel and sound the coin makes so it is indistinguishable from an original, and when you want to sell because you need the money you realize you bought a counterfeit, this is not a problem with bitcoin and this will be a factor that will play in favour of bitcoin in the future.The potential for fraud with precious metals is far too great and the costs of verifying the legitimacy of physical metals is way too high for it to be remotely feasible. Yet, people criticise BTC for its high transaction fees, which is objectively minuscule when compared to the transportation costs, costs associated with securing your metals, and costs of verification. Title: Re: Trader buys $36 million of copper and gets painted rocks instead Post by: Lorence.xD on March 19, 2021, 04:00:26 AM Therefore, nowadays many people choose Bitcoin as a safe haven compared to precious metal. because sometimes it has difficulties to distinguish What does an average person need those precious metals in the first place? If you are in the trade of refineries and things that deal with this then it is understandable that you have some involvement, it really depends on the person which one he/she is going to invest in, whether bitcoin or precious metals, it is up to that person. The problem with this one is that it was a planned heist in my opinion because 36 million USD worth of copper is a lot of money and you can't easily move that and replace it with fakes.the real one from the fake. Even myself, it is difficult to distinguish real metals from fake ones. In fact, I once bought gold jewelry from my friend, then after a few years I was going to sell it, it turned out that I was buying fake gold jewelry. Now with Bitcoin I am more comfortable and safer to store my wealth, compared to buying precious metal. |