Bitcoin Forum

Hello everybody,

I'm new to cryptocurrencies and I want to buy my first hardware wallet.

Let me just say that I didn't know where exactly should I put this thread,so I opened it in general section.I kindly ask mods to move it to right part of the forum if this one isn't appropriate.

I narrow down my choice to Trezor One and Ledger Nano S.

I would like to know few things that will help me choose between two.

1.Which one is more secure when it comes to connecting to PC (i don't plan to use smartphones)?

2.What will happen if I have etc. Trezor and it get broken/lost/malfunctioned-can I still retrieve coins if that happens?

3.Can I get hacked if I connect them to infected PC or PC with bad Antivirus protection?

4.If either company (Trezor/Ledger) goes broke,what will happen with support and will i still be able to use them?

5.I prefer to be more safe once I'm connected to PC and I have less worries that someone will steal physical device,which one would you recommend then?

6.Which one has larger capacity for storing more coins?

7Which one is more future proof in long terms?

Every comment is welcome.

I am using a Ledger nano S since they launch it. I have never encountered any problem with it. You can install / uninstall any app (wallet) anytime you want and use of the device is easy too. Never used a Trezor so I do not have much idea but with my nano I never felt that I would need anything else.

One thing worth to mention, when you order, try not to give too much personal details. Ledger has this bad record of getting hacked which means if privacy is something you care too much then give a delivery address which is not actually yours but you can collect the delivery when it arrives.

1. I think that they're both offer kinda same safety.
2. If something like that happens with the device and you don't want to buy another one, you can easily enter the seed into a software wallet (eg Electrum) and use the funds. The seed is the part you have to keep safe, maybe even in multiple places.
3. Not all viruses/malware "know" what to do. On a compromised computer the biggest problem may be a compromised wallet software (which you have to use together with the hardware wallet). But if you are not careful, you can download yourself a compromised wallet and the antivirus may not complain about it.
4. If they go down, the official support will also go down. But there's a large community of users here on bitcointalk and also on reddit and you may get help from the community. Keep in mind that the seed is more important than the hardware wallet.
5. I think that both are similar vs PC and I think that both have problems if somebody else gets physical access to them.
6. I don't know. It may be Nano X, but I don't know for sure.

I recommend you read [GUIDE] How to buy a Hardware Wallet the right way (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288201.0;topicseen)

Both are secure, but if you want to use Trezor, make sure you use passphrase as seed extension for more safety, this will help you during theft.

What should be more important to you is your backup, especially your seed phrase and passphrase. Offline backup are the best for safety reasons. If you have your backup, you have your coins in a way you will be able to recover the coins on another wallet if the wallet is lost or stolen. But, make sure you do the backup appropriately including the seed phrase, and passphrase if included.

Your hardware wallet can be vulnerable to malware if connected online, make sure your computer or device used is not having malware. Although, hardware wallet are malware resistant than online wallets but not 100% resistant.

What should most matters to you should not the hardware wallet or the company, what matters most is your backup that can generate back your keys and addresses and recover back your coins. You do not need the wallet type you are using for this, you can use another wallet and use the backup to recover back your coins.

For Ledger Nano, it has a secure element that can not let thieves get access to your seed phrase if stolen. For trezor, make sure you use passphrase in addition as a word extension, if strong passphrase is used, it will not be also possible for theives to get access to it. And if your wallet is stolen, you will be able to access it with your seed phrase and passphrase if included, and move your coins to another wallet entirely as soon as possible with new seed phrase and passphrase generated.

Ledger Nano S store more coins than Trezor One, but they are both compatible with ERC-20 tokens. For more coin support, it will be good to go for Trezor Model T or Ledger Nano X.

One thing about Ledge Nano wallet is that their secure element is close source, it means even if seed phrase generated is done with malacious secure element, the seed phrase will be compromised, many people would have been affected before people will know. But, I think the company can be trusted, but I do not trust anything close source in design as it can be compromised by the company that are producing the wallet. I prefer open source because the source code used will be available for the public to check, which means it is like knowing everything about what your wallet is using to operate, and Trezor is a open source wallet which will make me prefer it if compared Ledger Nano, but not using it with passphrase is not safe.

I know a few years ago, someone managed to intercept data on the Trezor wallet with specialized tools and they successfully extracted the Private keys from the wallet. (So for this to work, someone has to have physical access to your Trezor wallet to do this)

The Ledger Nano S on the other hand had some very dodgy Firmware upgrades... (I am saying dodgy with a tongue in the cheek.. it is actually not very user-friendly and possibly an attack vector for hackers)

That said.... I would still go for the Ledger Nano.... because it is a very nice hardware wallet. ( I have both)  ;)

Both are safe and you won't have problem with them. If you're worried about getting hacked, it's because of your negligence. Don't input your seeds to any forms online whether you use ledger nano s or trezor.

About PC having no anti virus, there's a chance you'll be hacked by those copy paste address attack. Otherwise, you're free and safe because these two are the most reputable. Btw, I own a Ledger Nano S and its still working.

I have a Ledger Nano S and a Ledger Nano X.
If you are interested in hodling and operations with 1-4 coins, then you can buy the Nano S. If there are more coins, then you will have to uninstall applications, because the memory of the Nano S is very small. This is the disadvantage of the Nano S.
Wait for the discount season and buy the Ledger Nano X.

Kraken Identifies Critical Flaw in Trezor Hardware Wallets
https://blog.kraken.com/post/3662/kraken-identifies-critical-flaw-in-trezor-hardware-wallets/

First,I didn't quote all who commented in this thread because it would take too much space,but I want to thank everyone who helped with their comments.
@jossiel I plan to keep seeds words written on paper and stored on safest place possible.
I have anitvirus,but I also use,well...pirated websites very often and I often have viruses,but I remove them frequently.
I know there is a morality issues with that,but I mostly use them to try product before I decide if I'll going to buy it or not.
You said there is a chance I'll be hacked by copy paste address attack,what did you mean by that?

@zasad@ I don't feel safe to hold even small amount of coins without HW wallet.I have very small amount,but I read that if you have coins that are cost as or more as HW wallet it's unwritten rule to buy HW wallet.
I don't mind that I won't have large amount of coins to mine,I mine mainly ETH and Bitcoin so I don't have interest in other coins.

I don't have experience on using up Trezor but I do have some in Ledger and when it comes to safety then I do believe that both could really do the job well in securing your coins
without any worrying about getting breached or hacked.

As long you are responsible into those important informations like ex. keys etc. then you should really be fine but if one day you have lost these coins
due to breach then theres no other for you to take blame but only yourself.

Choosing between the two? Its a matter of preference.

There is a section of the forum dedicated to HARDWARE WALLETS (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=261.0) which is packed full of information.



There is a degree of personal responsibility involved with owning and using hardware wallets
which involves being security conscious, the wallet is secure as long as the user practices
good habits to being mindful of possible attacks.

I own and use both.

I like the Nano smartphone app and the convenience of being able to use the wallet
with an OTG cable, downside is that phones can be mislaid or stolen easily.

I use the Trezor less often, it is where my long term HODL coins are and access it by
PC to the trezor.io official website. Downside is that its not quite as easy to access IMO,
but thats not a big deal.

That's what you should really be doing for keeping your seeds. You don't put that on any online storage, keeping it on a written form and safe place for the storage shows that you know what you're doing.

Avoid using or downloading things on pirated websites, you might encounter a malware from any of the app that you're downloading there including downloading cracked anti-virus.

Just avail an anti virus that came from the official company, it's not that going to cost you much for your security.

A sudden change of your bitcoin address upon copying your own. The one that you'll paste will be pasting the hackers bitcoin address which would likely come from a malware, that's why avoid downloading on pirated websites and as well as unknown apps.

They are both safe and reputable, but the problem is should properly correct of purchasing and using them. Because there's no safe wallet at all, they are all vulnerable to hack if you don't know how to manage your wallet or using them. Just like storing your seed and it should be in a safe place, and also when using your hardware device you should use a third-party wallet app that also open source. There are various explanations on how to take good care of your hardware wallet. 

So either Trezor or Ledger will work similarly in this case. They protect your coins from any malware which might be on your computer, and prevent an attacker from being able to immediately steal your coins as they could on a software wallet installed on a computer infected with malware. I would recommend using a different computer altogether for your crypto which you do not use for pirated software, but if that's not an option, then a hardware wallet is a reasonable next option.

The way both Trezor and Ledger wallets work is that any time you want to make a transaction, you first create the transaction on your computer, your computer sends this transaction to your hardware wallet for approval and signing, you double check the transaction on your hardware wallet's screen, confirm that it is correct, and then your hardware wallet signs the transaction and sends the signed transaction back to your computer to be broadcast. The signing process is protected from malware since it takes place on the hardware wallet itself, and once the signed transaction is sent back to your computer it cannot be altered or changed by malware, since doing so would invalidate the signature and mean the network would reject the transaction. So the only way for malware to attack this process is in the first step, where you create the transaction on your computer.

The most common way for this to happen is via what is known as clipboard malware. Let's say you want to send some coins from your hardware wallet to an exchange so you can trade them. You log in to your exchange account and highlight and copy your deposit address - bc1YOURDEPOSITADDRESS. You then head over to your hardware wallet software interface, paste the address, and choose how much bitcoin to send. However, when you paste the address, instead of your computer pasting bc1YOURDEPOSITADDRESS, it instead pastes bc1MALWAREADDRESS. You don't notice, you hit send and your computer sends this transaction over to your hardware wallet. You then check the details of the transaction on your hardware wallet. Now, thankfully, you notice that it is showing bc1MALWAREADDRESS instead of bc1YOURDEPOSITADDRESS, so you can reject the transaction, and your coins are not stolen.

Both of them are good ones and you can buy anyone without any concern. However, do you have enough bitcoins with you that you actually need a hardware wallet ?  You already told that you are new in cryptocurrencies so i assume you will not have much money in crypto. If this is the case, you can postponed the idea of buying hardware wallet until you are holding a bag of bitcoins and altcoins.

Both Trezor and ledger are connecting in the similar way with usb connection and I would say that risks are equal here and most mistakes happen because of human mistakes.


You can always recover your funds if you stored your backup seed phrase in safe place, and import them in other hardware or software wallets.


Hardware devices are created with assumption that computer device is infected so it should not affect your coins on hardware device, but some keylogger may be used to record what you type.


Your backup phrase and private keys are more important than any hardware wallet device, and if or when some company close down just use your seed phrase and import in other wallets.


If you want to be more secure than use separate computer only for connecting with your hardware wallet, and keep you hardware wallet in safe place.
Using passphrase as 25th word will also help in case someone stole your hardware wallet device.


ledger nano s have small and limited memory capacity and you can only install few apps to fill this memory space, nano x has bigger memory space, and there are no limits or apps for trezor wallet.
Trezor have advantage here and support for coins is very similar for both but you can check exact coins on their website.


Long term my bet is on Trezor because they are fully open source, they are working on their own secure element and they care more about customer privacy and keeping information safe.
They are also first ever hardware wallet created, and they contributed a lot to crypto ecosystem with real development solutions.

I believe using hardware wallet is the best for him to avoid scam and hacked on his account regardless on what is the amount of his current holdings. Newbie are prone on danger since they can easily exposed there private key on some phishing website or malicious malware since they don't have much experience on cryptocurrency.

Per my understanding, open source HD wallet would be better, it means you can download the source code, review it, and build it yourself. Or in another word, open source had already been reviewed by many users/hackers/programmers already, if there is a weakness, I believe the batch stolen behavior may happen and be a big news to spread, we may hear that easily.

So finally I bought Bitbox02 HD wallet.

Do remember, "seed backup and store" is the most important thing in all cases, no matter which wallet you select.

I'll try to answer the more important ones, since some were already cleared and don't leave any grounds for discussion


I have ledger, but they're pretty much the same. Ledgetr had a database leak and some guys managed to break into Trezor by exploiting a vulnerability.
https://blog.kraken.com/post/3662/kraken-identifies-critical-flaw-in-trezor-hardware-wallets/

They're both still very secure and only a handful of people around the world have the knowledge to even attempt to crack them. Such attempt would take a lot of time and you'd be able to access your wallet from the seed and move the coins.

Remember that everything can be stolen but you can minimize the damage by being smart, having backups and limiting physical access to your hardware wallet.

1. Both of them, even with smartphones. Since the seed doesn't leave the device, you can consider it safe even with an infected device. This does not mean you shouldn't make sure the devices you are using aren't infected though. There are lots of things to still be worried about: malware exposing your private info, the old CTRL-C + CTRL-V viruses etc..

2. Yeah, tools like Ian Coleman's could help you out. But this is the more riskier option. You also have the more expensive solution: purchasing another HW and restoring the seed.

3. Not really. It's never happened before and I doubt it ever will since the seed is safely stored in the device. The only risk you might be running is if the device has been physically tampered or stolen. In that case, you should assume that the hacker might have the required equipment to tamper with your device and steal the seed - although even the best companies like Kraken call this a quite far stretch... you should be extremely unlucky to have your device stolen by someone who truly knows how to steal your funds off it!

4. Support will probably not be existent anymore, but there's a very large community that would be able to help you out. And again: Ian Coleman's tool might be the savior of your funds.

5. Not sure what you mean.. Between Ledger and Trezor, I'd prefer Trezor due to it being open-source rather than proprietary.

6. Trezor.

7. I think Trezor is. Since it's open-source, even if your device fails and the company does too, there's an alternative: building your own Trezor from scratch.

I don't understand why anyone would take the risk of using a "USB hardware wallet", when it is not firesafe, and has the possibility of a software problem.     I lean towards a "metal hardware wallet" like the ELLIPAL Mnemonic Metal  OR  Cobo Tablet .

Or would I really want is a bundled "cold wallet" + mnemonics container like in this bundle?  https://www.ellipal.com/collections/sale/products/bundle?variant=33170514772067 

Can anyone convince me that a USB wallet would be as safe?

Hey Gang,
Noob here.
I just ordered a Trezor One to store all of my BTC and ETH long term.
Sorry to say, but this is all kinda confusing.

Currently I have an account with Coinbase that is in a 2 step verification process for access to my wallet
For simple sakes, let's say I have 1.5 bitcoins in that wallet.

Before I transfer anything to my new Trezor, should I do a deep virus scan to my computer?
Should I go "offline" on the internet when doing the transfer?
What exactly is stored on the new Trezor?
Is it just that private key with a readout that says something like 1.5 bitcoins?

Sorry guys...
Now I know how my Mom feels when she goes on the internet for the first time!, Hahaha..

you won't be offline to transfer from exchange to Trezor.  you need an internet connection.

Trezor design to protect private keys, signing the transaction only on the device. I can't say anything If the virus can mutate from pc to USB cable.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trezor


but, to be sure to keep cleaning up your pc.

Hardware wallets and steel mnemonic back ups serve different purposes. No hardware wallet is going to be a physically resistant as a good steel product, but a steel product does not let you sign transactions without importing your seed phrase to a computer (and all the inherent risks that come with doing that). They are complementary devices, not mutually exclusive ones. A hardware wallet is used for interacting with you private keys in a secure environment, keeping them offline, but still allowing you to generate new addresses and create and sign transactions. A steel back up is used for long term back up of your seed phrase. It is entirely sensible to use both.

Note that both the Ellipal Mnemonic Metal and the Cobo Tablet performed very poorly on stress testing, with both resulting in complete loss of data - https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

Also note that the Ellipal hardware wallet had a vulnerability which allowed the seed phrase to be extracted - https://donjon.ledger.com/Ellipal-Security/.

Ellipal is closed source chinese made product with modified android os and nothing more than overpriced cheap mobile phone device.
Having no usb connection does not mean that some wallet is better or safer, vulnerabilities have been discovered in Ellipal several times and with each new firmware there are new bug risks.
Vulnerability have been discovered by ledger donjon team that was later fixed, and here are 10 new security vulnerabilities discovered by Towo Labs team in 2020:
https://coil.com/p/RareData/Responsible-Disclosure-Blind-Signing-Vulnerabilities-in-Ellipal/nG_tOlNr_

I would never recommend anyone to use Ellipal wallet and with current price of $139 it is more expensive than both Trezor or Ledger so it's not hard not to buy it.


It's best if you can use separate laptop just for crypto related stuff and not your everyday computer, and yes you should clean your computer from all malware and keyloggers.

The whole point of a good hardware wallet like a Trezor is that your keys and coins are safely stored on it and protected from any malware on the computer you are connected to. However, it never hurts to do a deep virus/malware scan.

You won't be able to do this when transferring from Coinbase, since you will need to log in to your Coinbase account to create the transfer request. Although you can use hardware wallets in an airgapped set up by only connecting them to a computer without internet access, most people do not do this, and it is fine for your hardware wallet to be connected to an internet enabled computer (in fact, the entire point of a hardware wallet is to remove the necessity of airgapping your computer).

The seed phrase it will create for you when you first set it up, and the private keys derived from that seed phrase. Your coins are not actually stored on your Trezor, and indeed, never leave the blockchain. When you transfer coins from your Coinbase wallet to your Trezor wallet, what you are actually doing is telling the network that some of the coins which are accessed by one of Coinbase's private keys are being moved to a new address which can only be accessed by a private key from your Trezor device.

I would absolutely recommend a Trezor over a Ledger any day, and would recommend the Trezor T over the original Trezor if you can afford the upgrade.  Another good option is the Coinkite Coldcard's.. bit less expensive than Trezor T, and arguably a more secure wallet than both Ledger and Trezor.  https://store.coinkite.com/store

That's definitely true, although it's more of an inconvenience than a real problem.  You can still hold tons of coins on the Nano S, but you just can't display them all at once. 

OP, NeuroticFish gave some good answers to your questions and there's nothing I could add to them.  I'm not sure about the Trezor security issue zasad mentioned, and I've never owned a Trezor (I just don't like the aesthetics).  However, both have been on the market for a long time and there haven't been any major issues as far as security goes and personally I'd trust both the Ledger models and the Trezor ones.  And as long as you have the seed phrase backed up, you don't even need the physical device to have control of your coins.

Thank you!
This stuff is confusing.. so much to learn.

Easy, there's time to learn all of it. Try to read the reply of o_e_l_e_o to your post/questions.

What you should do when transferring your coin, is to check that the address in the hardware wallet's screen is the same on the software wallet you're using(coinbase).

Get a backup copy of your 24 word seed of your trezor, in case that the hardware is stolen or broken you can recover your funds by importing that 24 word seed to compatible wallets.

There are some great posts and comments noted above in this thread.  I didn't see anyone mention a particular item that Trezor offers for those that are BTC only hodlers.  Trezor ALWAYS issues a btc-only firmware with every new release version.  The firmware is pure BTC minimizing any attack vectors that writing software to support many coin types may introduce.  For those that are pure BTC hodlers, this may be a significant security improvement.  Something for the purist to consider!

Your metal hardware wallet still can't help you if you lose your recovery phrase, if you wrote it down wrong, or if the RNG the company uses is weak. Essentially, it doesn't matter. The brand you suggested is worse than the ones this discussion is about. You can purchase one made of titanium and it would still be weak.

On the other hand, if you take proper care of your seed, you can use a hardware wallet made of jelly and always recover everything from seed when your device melts.   

Bitbox02 hardware wallet is doing something similar and you can buy separate versions on their website, Bitcoin-only or Multi edition with other coins and features like FIDO U2F included.
This is good especially if you are not using any other coins and if you want to improve security and reduce possibility for bugs in firmware.
There is also Coldcard hardware wallet dedicated only for Bitcoin.

That's not exactly true... you can technically display all your holdings at once (Ledger Live does not remove the account displayed if you uninstall the coin app on the device)... so you'll still be able to see all your balances and transactions within Ledger Live.

What you won't be able to do is interact with all of those coins at once... that is to say, you won't be able to confirm receive addresses or sign transactions etc unless you have the specific coin app loaded on the device. You would still be able to generate a receive address in Ledger Live, you just won't be able to connect the device and have it shown the confirmation on the device screen and you won't be able to create and send a transaction unless you have the correct coin app loaded on the device to allow you to sign the transaction.

However, all it takes is to uninstall a coin app or 2 to free up space and then reinstall the specific coin app that you want to work with. The entire process takes maybe a minute or 2 at the most... so unless you're constantly dealing with 10+ different coin types, multiple times a day... it really isn't a huge deal.

Hey guys,I heard that cryptocurrency aren't actually stored on hardware wallets at all.
They just make some kind of barrier between online wallet and hackers.
Is that true,because I felt really safe knowing that they'll be stored on device itself and cutoff from internet and PC,although I'm aware I'll had to go online to make a transaction.

That's correct. The coins are not stored in any type of wallets. They are always on the blockchain. Your hardware wallet stores the private keys that allows you to spend and control those coins. Ledger, for example, has a secure element. The private keys are stored in the secure element and kept offline even when you are connected to the Internet. If your device is malware infected, a virus still wouldn't be able to get to your keys. When you make a transaction, you give the wallet permission to sign for it by pressing the buttons on your hardware device.     

So,I guess Trezor have a secure element as well,just like Ledger?
Once I get Trezor,I won't have to worry about that someone can hack into my Coinbase account whether I'm offline or online and steal anything?
So even if coins aren't actually stored on device itself,nobody can ever hack my wallet,if I keep seed words written on paper and device stored on secure place?

Correct. Like others have said before me, the Trezor itself doesn't hold any bitcoin/crypto. Look at Trezor as a Key to open your house where you have all your belongings... you will only be able to access the funds associated with your Trezor if you use it to unlock the access to them. Even if you loose the device, provided that you still have your seed phrases, you can re-gain access to your funds by simply restoring the wallet.dat file in Electrum, for example.

The benefit of Trezor is that the keys are generated in a total different device other than your PC, to increase safety. You can also even add a password to your Trezor (if you end up buying the Model T) that even if you loose the device, nobody can access the interface because it's password protected.

Trezor also implements the so called passphrase, which further increases the safety of your funds. You can learn more about it here - Passphrase on Trezor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR5SKuhF-50)

---

If someone can find that piece of paper they can indeed access to your coins, so you better keep that paper in a high secured place...

When you talk about a password, you are referring to the PIN needed to unlock the hardware wallet, but that password is not a guarantee that your device will be protected in case it falls into the wrong hands. Furthermore, if you have not set the paraphrase, an experienced attacker who comes into physical possession of such a device will extract the seed from it within 5 minutes.



A seed that is additionally protected with a sufficiently strong paraphrase (brute force resistant) will not allow anyone to steal anything - in other words the seed and paraphrase should be stored separately.

Pretty much you wont need to use coinbase if you have a ledger or trezor. Make sure your seed is safe and secure!!!!!

If you're buying a ledger, I would suggest you to buy a Ledger nano X instead of Ledger Nano S. Personally, if you ask me, I would prefer a ledger over a trezor(mainly cause of the UI and personal preference and I like ledger live).

Ask us any other questions you have!

Ledger have written a couple of good blog posts for beginners, and one of them covers this topic. You can read it here: https://www.ledger.com/back-to-basics-part-1where-are-my-coins

Not quite correct. Trezor does not use a secure element like Ledger does, which is part of the reason why Trezor devices are vulnerable to seed extraction method Lucius has mentioned above. That's not to say that Trezor devices are worse than Ledger devices though, and both provide similar levels of protection when an attacker does not have physical access to your device or when using a long and complex passphrase.