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Some people say that working is good and that it makes people better themselves, not just by giving means of living, but because it prevents them from doing other things, becoming lazy and living of others. This entails a number of second corollaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corollary) such as:

- If you do not work you are not a good person.
- Since work is good, the more you do the better.
- Working is the natural order of life and what "God wants". If you do not work you are "a sinner". (see here "protestant work ethic" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic#:~:text=The%20Protestant%20work%20ethic%2C%20also,espoused%20by%20the%20Protestant%20faith%2C)).


https://i.blogs.es/5e95c6/bubbles/1366_2000.jpg

For those that may remain unconvinced by the shame, there is another positive construct based on ambition (I won´t call it greed): "The American Dream" - not exclusive from the US at all, it is just that it is better know by that name. The basis is "If you are talented and work hard, you can do whatever you dream of", and by the way you have to dream of a family and a big house in case you had any doubts.

This are quite simple concepts, appeal to the masses and are the type of simple answers to complex questions that seem to get grip in certain social groups.

Are any of these dogmas valid in developed countries nowadays? Is it better to interpret it as working for yourself rather than making effort to advance other people´s agenda?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW05s7yW0AAioFB?format=jpg&name=medium

People/society should work according to the purpose they were created for. The ear cells should quit trying to be like eye cells,likewise other cells trying to emulate different cells.

You don't work for selfish purposes. We work for the common good of people and society.
And certain people think certain kind of job are bad or are unnecessary, the question is how do they know that? Everyone should do what they are talented/gifted in, honestly and morally... and GOD will be pleased. It's not always about becoming rich, it's about using your businesses/talents to make society and people better. There are businesses that are bad for people and society, yet people get rich off such businesses. It's not supposed to be so. Everything you do must be pleasing to GOD ALMIGHTY, and we are told to work hard for others.
If you could remove the bad/immoral parts of people's work, and people who do such work are talented/gifted in them, you will likely know their true purposes.

Not exclusive to the US, but I think that the effectiveness of the aspirational element depends in large part on the degree to which people believe it is possible to succeed. The historical advantage of the US in this regard is that old Europe was perceived as already plundered, with the rich in perpetual control... whereas America was an untamed wilderness, with riches beyond measure available for the taking for anyone who had the courage to do so, and who dared to dream. See also Manifest Destiny.

I'm familiar with this, and have read summaries although not the text itself. I'm from the UK, where active Christianity is very much a minority thing. A lot of people I think still put "Church of England" on the census, but church attendance as a % of the population is negligible. I'm aware that religion is a much bigger thing in the US. I'd like to say that the linking of work to respect and value and success is determined by government and media direction/propaganda as well as rampant consumerism, rather than religious imperative... but I can't speak for the US.

As for Weber's link to Protestantism, I'm not fully convinced of the correlation, especially given the context of early 20th C. Europe, and German nationalism. Weber's suggestion that religious asceticism leads to fiscal prudence is unpicked a bit in the study at the link below.

https://voxeu.org/article/weber-revisited-protestant-ethic-and-spirit-nationalism

This will just be a positive feedback mechanism, if you work for yourself and you become rich, there is no way you will not impact to people lives, and people will impact to your life. Even if you think to be rich, and you are rich, people will like you because you are benefiting them, you will just be useful to the community in many ways. So, it is not about what we think, if we think about interpreting it as working for ourselves will not make good sense because being rich is like a forest which can not be made up by a tree, in the process of helping others, others also helping you to progress (the rich people, they provide job while they workers provide the service needed, thereby impacting to themselves). If you work towards working for yourself, if there is progress and you are rich, you will advance many people as may people will depend on you, and although depending on them as work force will be surfacing out.

In our contemporary society, the importance of working hard cannot be overemphasized, and one need not another to tell him or her that if you do not work, you'll resort to begging and other irksome social vices, I know there's the one or two percent of people living of inherited wealth and prolly do not have to work as hard as others before they can earn a living, but that sect is in the minority.

Having said that "work ethics" has quite a lot of advantages imo, not just for the individuals themselves, but for the general society at large, "work ethics" helps to shape an individual positively into putting maximum effort into their work without seeking shortcuts, for example if every individual actually has the desire to work hard following the principles of "work ethics", then there prolly won't be scammers and thieves out there, cause "work ethics" doesn't only forster hardwork, it also builds an individuals morals.

On the other hand, the "American dream" or rather dreaming big has an advantage on people's desire to work hard, and I think it's inextricable from "work ethics", why I say so is cause, it'll be futile to dream without actually working to make such dreams come to fruition, thus an individual through introspection first of all envisions what they want to achieve and what their talent is, and then the major step is working to achieve it, and work ethics is a good guide to making dreams possible.

What I have realized is that this type of conception is usually linked to political ideology. Those who are more capitalist/republican/right wing, believe that "work dignifies". Those who are more social communist/democrat/left wing tend to be more of the "work enslaves" conception. What is clear to me is that if the world has advanced, it has been more because of the first conception than the second. The point is to find something you like to do.

too complicated to simplify that I don't have enough knowledge to understand how the concept works hard in theory. because the more I theorized the more awkward I was at doing something. with that, I often do what can be done today.

oh I just remembered that usually this phenomenon can be found in developed and developing countries, people in developed countries are people who have high investment. and do not forget that Evsey Domar and Roy Harrod said "economic growth is determined by high savings and investment. If people's savings and investment are low, then the economic growth of the community or the country is also low"

For me, there is an important lesson that needs to be understood about the failure of capitalism, namely the developing supercapitalism, namely the emergence of the recent global financial crisis phenomenon.
Supercapitalism is characterized by the dominance of the financial system in driving the world financial system and economic system. hence the supercapitalism system is also marked by the loss of social relations between governments. When viewed from the indicators of economic development, what makes other countries successful is by adopting a welfare state model.

For me it doesn't really matter on what you call it as long as you have a goal in mind and have a plan for it I think that will keep you in track on what you want. American dream and work ethic for me is something you can associate more for your motivation which you are correct when people use it to work hard for the goal they want to reach but if we are talking about mostly a corporate setting this could be different as the ones above you will always try to say the lines "if you want to go up you must work hard" is something that they will always use for the benefit of the company but not you which is truly disappointing, they will use what you want but the progress or career you are looking for will always be dependent on the company you are in.

I do agree that "hard work" doesn't bring anything close to wealth, I have seen a lot of people work harder than you can imagine, and none of them are rich. One of them is my father, he was a person who came to work earlier than anyone else and got everyone's job ready for that day, and he left the latest, once every two weeks he went to work on Friday and came back home on Saturday morning, we have gone to him to give him home cooked meal time to time, thankfully on later years there was facetime so we could see him and give him a cheers up because it was so hard. And he retired with my mom at some distant place with his own house, that is not too bad, that is better than many people who are starving on the streets, but that is nowhere close to wealthy, this guy worked 100 hours a week for 32 years and he got a house to show for it, not an expensive house neither.

So nobody tell me that hard work would bring money, that's a lie.

Unfortunately that's how the current thought process of the society works. I am a victim of such thought process of my family. Back in 2007 - 2009, I used to have 3 websites in my local languages. At that time the market penetration of my native languages was not good I used to enjoy a huge amount of organic traffic in all 3 of my websites. I was able to monetize my traffic in a great way because the usage of ad-blocker was not very common. So I literally used to earn a good amount of money every single month sitting at my home at the same time when I was studying for the post graduation.

I had to join a job just because of my family's pressure because they could not understand the nature of the work I was doing and the job was paying 1/3rd of what I used to earn through my websites. As a result, I had to give up two of my websites and I was able to continue with only one which eventually died a slow death because I couldn't manage time after a hectic banking job schedule.

So it is a man made structure and social taboo which eventually forced me to do a job instead of getting creative. So the so called "work ethics" and "Dream of a good life" is what ruined my finances for the rest of my life. I am still doing a corporate job and living mostly on my salaries apart from my signature and trading income. All thanks to the social taboos called "work ethics" and "Dream of a good life".

One of the most fearful tools that has been invented to keep people working for the rest of their lives is debt, truth to be told a person should be able to leave decently if they earn a good amount of money, but what keeps most people from achieving this dream is the fact that they can obtain credit so easily, just a few generations ago if you wanted to obtain a credit you needed to demonstrate that you were going to use that credit for something productive, today you can even buy your groceries with credit.

This means that people live way beyond their means thinking that they can always repay back their debts but they forget that they have to do so with interest and they do not use their money to their full potential, someone that is able to understand this can achieve financial freedom relatively quickly especially if that person invests in bitcoin.

Would it be fair to say, throughout history there were hustlers who were motivated and ambitious. They worked hard and enjoyed glory, success and riches as a result. Over thousands of years, human societal values and tradition came to reflect these trends. There was pressure on parents to raise healthy & successful children. And pressure on children to meet the expectations of their ancestors.

In the modern era we've witnessed fracturing of culture and tradition. Many wish to breakaway from culturally normalized values and ideology. To blaze their own trails. Environmentally this may be one of the best times in human history for working class individuals to survive and live well without being mutually dependant upon a community or family unit for survival.

In past eras parents might be more prone towards caring for their children. Knowing that their children would care for them when they became old. Parents today are more prone towards being indifferent towards their offspring believing that the state or government will provide for them when they become elderly. Recent shifts in societal values could be environmentally driven moreso than a result of other variables.

I think the following quotation by Patrick Geddes could highlight segments of the debate. Although it could be a bit of an oversimplification.

People who succeeded worked really hard to achieve their goals in life which is what shown in the media but every people who is working hard become rich? No and never as long as they are living in a society. Only people who realized the need of working hard in the sector where people wanted to become consumer became rich for example Apple and Google.

These things aren't very relevant today and haven't been relevant for quite some time already, as the influence of religion is waning, especially in the Western world.

These days, people value themselves and their time more, so they won't allow their bosses to overload them with work without proper compensation. Also, demanding from your workers to work hard can be quite counterproductive, because the quality of their work will drop. Look, for example, at game development, where companies often demand to finish the game in unrealistically short spans, and the product comes out buggy and lacking in promised features and generally disappointing.

The same narrative that our government is trying to push into the minds of its citizens as to why there are a lot of people living below the poverty line. Why work hard if the pay grade is not even worth half of the job that is being given? But even though that's the case, those who are living by making ends meet have no other choice but to get those jobs until some opportunity comes up. It's really cruel but we made a world where capitalism reigns supreme. It is what it is, but people can still succeed if great opportunities come in their way and they do not hesitate to seize it and make the most out of it.

I'd disagree. My politics are some way left of centre, but I'd say that the question of whether work 'dignifies' or 'enslaves' depends entirely on the nature and conditions of the work, and the associated reward... and has nothing to do with the concept of work itself. Let's take the example of Amazon drivers who are paid a pittance, and have to work so frenetically that they can't even get toilet breaks, and are reduced to defecating into bags (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/amazon-delivery-drivers-scolded-toilets-b926440.html) in their vehicles... and then chastised for doing so. The work is "delivery driver". In this instance, it does not dignify the worker, it's enslaves/shames/humiliates them. This has nothing to do with being a delivery driver, and everything to do with the exploitative and inhumane practices of the employer. It's perfectly possible to pay people a decent wage and give them decent working conditions (especially when you're the richest person in the world (https://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryadolan/2021/04/06/forbes-35th-annual-worlds-billionaires-list-facts-and-figures-2021/?sh=237acd625e58)), it's just that many companies and the governments who enable them have no wish to do so.

Stop using my trigger word!

I don't necessarily believe that it's a divine revelation that "work is good, else it's a sin" but what I believe is working is necessary. There are many lazy ways to make money today on the internet as well, there are people who has inherited a large amount of money from their parents and become a sloth and eat from what they have, there are people who steals money from others etc, and frankly, these people are nothing but a burden to the world. Now, don't get me wrong, work isn't limited to physical work, it expands to mental work as well, like a doctor treating patients etc. Work means you are providing some productivity to the world and its progress, and in return the world gives you value in form of money/respect etc. Even if I throw all the ethical value, the human body is a machine, we are animals of flesh and blood and today if we all become lazy sloth, our life span would decrease, we would die early, there will be new diseases which never we saw! To make this machine efficient, we gotta use it no? Plus, not all works are a form of punishment, if you love what you are doing and making money off it, it's like a win-win journey for you and you are an example of success ;) 

I heard this particular dialogue from one of my favourite shows recently.

'Everyone knows the secret to success : Work hard like crazy'.

The female lead said these words and I felt that she was absolutely right. This is basically the 'American Dream' as you mentioned op. It's not an 100% effective solution, but it is the best solution out there since it works majority of the time.

The American Dream is just a lie that is created by big corporations to make the workers think that if they work with loyalty to the company and work themselves to the point of exhaustion, that they might be able to achieve the dream. Work ethics on the other hand is a set of rules for workers to not be unruly and be a liability to the company, in my opinion, work ethics is a good thing in a work environment.

Maybe you are right, but I can't 100% agree. Some people are gifted liders, while the others are good doers. Working for oneself won't be suitable for all of us.

In short, I think what OP meant was working hard vs. working smart. People who belongs to hardworking are those people who works for money, and the latter are those people who makes money works for them. Is there any difference? the answer is YES.

If you're the type of person who works for money, you'll never achieve any big goals in your time in which you could still work pretty good, so the ending is that you'll only achieve one average goal when you're already in your 50's, which is pretty bad. Unlike if you work smart, you could achieve a lot of things and when you're in your retirement age, you'll only be in your 40's sipping on your glass of wine in your own private resort.

While the religious aspect of this line of thinking has faded, although you may want to take a look at how live these are in some regions such as the Bible Belt (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt), the cultural aspect remains. In a way, it is similar to some Muslim countries and particularly some cities in which people are just moderately religious or none at all but women will still wear a hijab.

The origin was religious, the support came from those who would benefit from social order, social immobility and having others "work hard". The thinking is culturally still there and the support is still coming from the same groups.

Actually work ethics is the way of having the proper work etiquette in everytime that we are working with our colleagues in which it will help us to have a proper team work inside the job. The thing that the American dream is that whenever you work hard and put all of your effort that's already enough for you to be successful someday but the thing that we need to consider is that we need tk strive high in order for us to be more successful someday.

For me the American dream was always that you could make it from a dishwasher to a millionaire if you work hard enough. But is this still the case? I noticed that the living cost rose much faster than salaries over the last 10 years. Would 1 million USD be enough to  be rich and have made it in life? Definitely not in my country. In my city for example, you get a 100m2 apartment for 1 million. So while you are a millionaire on paper it won't be enough.

Well, I don't know what political ideology I have, because it is not defined and is open to change. Let's say that at present, for moral issues I am more left-wing and for economic issues more right-wing.

What I don't like about leftist ideologies is that what they sell is the victim mentality.

The example you give of Amazon is certainly not a dignifying job but that is far from the norm today. Nowadays, a worker is more master of his destiny than ever. We are not in the Middle Ages where peasants had no choice but to work in semi-slavery conditions for the feudal lord. Or think of the peasants of Ireland working for the English Landlors, or the beginning of the industrial revolution. Today, in historical terms, workers work better and live better than ever before in history.

The Amazon worker can try to organize with co-workers or unions to get better working conditions, can try to get another job, or do other work in their free time (e.g. online) to save and have a cushion to allow them peace of mind when making decisions. He could, for example, have bought $10 worth of bitcoin a week for the last 5 years, etc.

So, he is not a victim. His future, although not 100%, is in his hands. Surely he has had fewer advantages in this life than someone born into a wealthy and well-connected family, but he is not a victim. His future depends largely on his choices.

I for one do not believe that work in general either diginifies or enslaves, what I do believe is that those who manage to work in something they like live better than those who work as a means to get money.

That's what I was referring to before. The world has advanced precisely because of that. Because there have been people throughout history who have set goals, and done whatever it took to achieve them. When Columbus discovered America (thinking he was going to the Indies) he did not stop to think if what he was doing was enslaving or what. And I assure you that such a long voyage by ship at that time was anything but comfortable.


That is similar to this one:

Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working. — Pablo Picasso (https://serendipitylabs.com/inspiration-exists-find-working-pablo-picasso-2/)

He also enjoyed his job.


It was not so much a question of quantity, of getting a million, as of quality of life. Someone who started out poor, simply by working, could get a house, a car, support his family, vacations, etc. In general, improve their quality of life.

Today, it is still possible, not only in the USA, but in most developed countries. But this conception is also linked to what we have been talking about in this thread: the American dream assumes that the destiny is in your hands and that you are not a victim (to whom a socialist politician has to come to save).

The difference between America and many countries is that America is highly democratic, things are not just done anyway. The government upholds people's right and sovthey must act appropriately. The government takes care of some many aspects that makes human life comfortable
In America, the poor have access to access loan for opening small business and there are housing that you as poor person can access, there are good roads etc. High level of security and feed back to government incase anything goes wrong for proper planning, this is the American dream built in there governance system. For America, governance is serious business and that is the reason they are serious during elections. Election is to elect set of people to pioneer the affairs of the America economy and society for the next tenure of 4 years.

Is there any other way to achieve the American Dream without working hard through Work Ethics mindset? I don't think so...

People just shouldn't take these terms literally. By working hard you aren't harming yourself physically and psychologically, it just means you are a focused person, who pursue your goals in order to reach a better life status to give more confort to yourself, your family, your community and to honor God for the attributes that were guaranteed you. You are the main benefited in the end, there is nothing about slavery or abuse in working hard. And if you don't, no one will work for you. Maybe a populist government you will give you some pennies (that is slavery), but that is all.

Work ethics is about being disciplined, professional and fulfiling with your promises/deals. Something like this could be smelled as a wrong thing only in a sick society like this one we have nowadays.

We're all living in different situations. Some people wouldn't survive life without working but that doesn't mean that they're on the wrong path. Some people just don't have a choice but it's about working wise not working hard that could make life better. America has strong government support especially to their poor citizens, unlike other countries that the government is just taking advantage of the poorest of the poor's situation.

I wish you were right about the worker rights but unfortunately we are at a much more modernize version of the roman republic slavery. Now you may think that it is impossible we could ever be similar, but given those days slaves (who actually worth something) were given housing, wines, chance to marry each other, food, anything basically they would need to survive whereas people today are in responsible for their own well being meaning they are given some paper and told go do whatever we want with it and call it "money" is making things harder and there are much more automation and a lot less people employed, there are so many people and so little jobs so people are afraid of changing their owners, they still do but it is a hard and difficult process and if you are without an owner for too long you starve to death which is why it is not that different.

I may exaggerate a bit but I just do it so you can understand why it is difficult. Plus amazon is trying to block any union deal there is, the current places they have are trying to build an union and they are doing everything to stop it, if they made 90 billion dollars in profit this last 400 days, do you think it is ok for them to try to block unionization? What are they doing in there to make it difficult for unions? I mean if they are so good place they should allow unions as well, but they won't because they are disgusting.

And most of the time they drive all other business around them to bankruptcy so the only good jobs left are amazon jobs because it at least pays more than other places, even if it means you may have to shit in bags once in a while people prefer that so that they won't starve.

This is relative, the logic says that if you work more you should receive more money or payment, sometimes some jobs require you to give at least 8 to 10 hours of work, but the salary you earn is not enough to live well, but to try to cover the most basic needs such as food, services, among others.

When you have a profession in a certain branch, according to the degree of difficulty, the pay is taken into account, for more difficult professions the payment is higher, but if the payment is higher, the schedule is not taken into account, because in the same way it is due meet schedules.

When a job is done, it should pay through the achieved goals, I think that in that aspect everything would improve from the time dedicated to the work as well as the quality and the payment.

That's work hard, to spend how many hours in work without even any shortcuts.  The instinct of having another source of income is a must and in the right investment.  Just like my professor once said, "don't work for the money, let your money work for you".

I think the reason why there has to be argued is that someone wasn’t able to get the point.
Working and service are considered synonyms however, they have a big difference if you’re going to observe.

Working is doing something in exchange for your desire and service is doing something to someone or something in favor of yours.
For me, working is a trap.  If you consider your job as one exchange for what you want to get, that’s the reason why you feel what you feel.  But if you know the real purpose of service, you’ll never complain and you will reach the American dream without noticing it.

I agree every country has different situations and also different policies, in some countries it is very difficult to find decent paying work.
I agree that America has a pretty good government in terms of its hiring system, compared to the country where I live. In America more
people bribe to get into good universities, such as the Rick Singer case, which is quite large regarding the bribery case to get into a favorite
university. But in my country people pay more bribes to be able to work. Therefore, every country has different situations and problems.
In the end, the victims were poor people again.

In a capitalistic society that is also competition-driven, people must work to acquire as many capitals as possible to win the battle. This reality will turn off lots of people who are not competitive in nature. Therefore, people need motivation in the form of quotes about working hard, teaching about work ethics, the dream, etc., that are there to "smooth-talk" people and give them hope.

Yep, capitalism is a cruel system, but fair, unlike the opposite side of the spectrum, where your work doesn't mean anything if the supreme leader dislikes you.

They condition people into thinking that if they work hard enough, they will get more money but that is not the case since there isn't a lot of people that are hardworking that get rich, maybe there are some that are an exception but most of the time, it is not the case. This conditioning is used so the capitalist ruling class is able to exploit human resources with the problem of the people revolting against them.

What I hear here is the victim mentality I was talking about before. No. There is no slavery because people are free to leave that job and look for another one. And there are many more opportunities nowadays. In Ancient Rome, people din't have computers and cell phones with which they could generate income, or invest.


Yes you are exaggerating quite a bit, lol.


No, I don't agree with those practises, I think the authorities/regulators should do something about it.

I feel so unfair on our own country, other countries pay huge money based on how hard they work of a person, unlike on our country wherein most of the hard job we have are not paid enough for their basic needs, just like the construction worker, this kind of job is such a hard job as it uses your physical health.
There are many different works we have all over the world, there are some who say that we have to spend our time first studying so we can have a better life in the future or good career that pays us enough money to survive in our lives. Well this is true but in some cases not, skills and confidence would still be the assets to have better life.

I have very much understood until recently how the rich work and how the common man works.  We can clearly compare the rich to be rich because they work smart.  Likewise, an ordinary person works very hard until his sweat is flowing profusely but he is also not rich because he is not smart in managing his money and how to earn money.  The minister in my country said that the fundamental difference between developed and poor countries lies in the financial literacy of their people.  Because the better the community is able to manage their finances, it will help their country succeed in getting out of the poverty zone.

the teachings of Muslims is to follow their prophet Muhammad to which he is a merchant. most if not all are actually following his steps which every corner in my country there are stalls owned by Muslims selling just about anything from CDs, cellphones, items of clothing and etc.

the history of the American Dream as far as i know dates back to the time where they redistribute lands in America to those who are willing to migrate and populate America the land of opportunity. Now it evolves just someone who become famous being a rockstar and living the dream.

That's true, a lot of hard working people do not get rich, and then they tell you to be smart and go to college and study and become better, so you do that and when you do that suddenly we are in a world where idiots are saying smart people are ruining the world, and "just because you went to college you can't decide what is going on", and basically all around worse stuff.

The fact is that if the world was run by meritocracy instead of capitalism or communism or any other method which I have to say ALL of them are corrupted, then we could have a decent world. In capitalist nations you work and some business owners get rich and live awesome, in communist nations you work hard and some community part members and president gets rich and you don't. In all nations we have people who get rich while most of the people end up being poor and that's the problem.

Comprehending works from my perspective, it's real that work is the primary source of provision of better living, so without engaging in work even though it's average work, I think is obvious that working activities is what can extend the life of humans via finance, exercise and engagement in conversation, so without work life would have be difficult to survive, yes i agree with you that work can only make someone people lazy, but the only factor work can make someone people lazy, is the situation whereby it's am office work that does not required disturbance or stress, but their are varieties of works that can help for proper activation of body functions such as engineering works, such as constructional works.

Work ethics is something that is duly expected from you by your company. Yes it could be a mechanism to ensure that you are working at your utmost capacity but we can't just put a company's productivity in the hope that your team works hard because you trust them, so certain rules and regulations are necessary to ensure that a business stays alive, one way or another.

A lot of people can not become rich, because it is those individual people who have more wealth than the main number of people around them, just considered rich. A person is a social and rational being, and therefore it is better for society to motivate a person to work with such ideas. Reality, of course, never falls short of such ideals, but if society and citizens at least strive for such things, then I do not see anything wrong with it. The most important thing is that the gap between reality and ideals such as the American dream is not huge, otherwise social explosions are inevitable and this capitalist ruling class in the person of individual representatives may well give way to other representatives.

I think the main problem is that nowadays to live the American Dream you need to do so much better, than just work. In developing countries, it is common that the government and oligarchs simply steal the fruits of people's work. They can try very hard but never get any kind of reward, while the upper-class people buy themselves the 15th car or the third mansion.

In the developed countries there's another problem. Too many educated people choose the same work field, e.g. everyone wants to be a designer, or a lawyer, an actor, manager, etc. This creates a huge and unnecessary competition, which leads to too many qualified people ending up working out of their professional field or having no job and, at the same time, lack of skilled labor in non-popular fields.

In such an atmosphere, in order to succeed not only you need to work hard and know your stuff, but also to be able to "sell" yourself, make a proper presentation, be very goal-oriented, competitive, and also sometimes you need to be lucky. Because in very developed countries you can possess all of the above-mentioned virtues, but still end up not living your dream, because your employer didn't like you, or had a bad day and didn't feel like hiring you, or you got fired after a long period of hard work.

This is what happens when the labor market is oversaturated because people aren't doing what they really want, but rather choose whatever they are saddled with from the very childhood. This needs to change.

I don’t think that whether we should work or not should be a question. As you said, people not working might not be a sin, but there is a quote that goes as such – an idle mind is the devils workshop, meaning that when you are idle you’re likely to be facing temptations that will lead you into doing things that are morally wrong. People steal because they don’t have work to do.

So not working might not be a sin, but it can lead you to sin. There is no food for a lazy man, you don’t just sit and expect money to be coming into your pocket, no, you have forgot to work and then the money will come. So, it’s totally right that people have to work, if you don’t, nobody will do it for you.

I don't have a problem with work ethic because I want my workplace as an employee respectable as much as possible, what I have a problem with is that Capitalism sells you the American Dream which is just a myth that is used to conditioned into thinking that they are a vital part of the corporate machine which deludes them of the reality that these parts are replaceable.

It doesn't matter how hard you are working.What matters is do you really like your job/business?
If you work hard on a shitty job,then your life is going to be miserable.If you truly enjoy your job/career,hard work won't be a problem for you.The main goal is to find your purpose in life.This is easier said than done.I still don't know what is my purpose of life.
The "American dream" and the "protestant work ethic" are just ways to explain the "hard work pays off" cliche.
And yes,it's always better to work something,instead of being lazy and wasting your life,doing nothing every day

It is true, from a young age in some cases they tell us: Study, train as a professional and work in a famous company, your life will be assured there, and I think not, I have always thought and agreed with the philosophy of Robert Kiyosaki that the system It is corrupt, they do not teach you from a young age about financial education, about accounting, Real Estate.

I am particularly in favor of children speaking to them about business, about Real Estate, from their formation, so that they have another type of thought, if they choose a profession that they are employers and not employees. I believe that this type of training will lead to hard work with more results and with more quality.

Your family and society expect something from you, first as a son or daughter then as a citizen,  there is a saying that goes "an idle mind is the devil's workshop" if as a person you are not engaged in any activity that will keep you busy or active you tend to be bored and think about irrelevant stuff,

Work can varies, nowadays some people don't need to work hard to achieve their "American dreams" ever heard of "born with silver spoon" yeah this category of people don't need to sweat much to have their dreams come true,
Others who fall below this category perhaps needs to work hard to achieve their dreams, and don't forget dreams also varies, depending on individual interests, does not necessarily mean having a mansion and fleets of cars 8)

It doesn't matter how hard you work, what matters is the process taken to achieve that dream, your obligation mostly lies to your family before society,
Society can demand something but it is up to you to consider fulfilling it or not.

The "American Dream" of a suburban house with a lawn, a dog, a smiling wife, car and children was basically an invention to motivate the working classes. This image was reinforced with patriotism and the spectre of a communist takeover of the world during the cold war. America never really recovered from the values established in that time. Ayn Rand's individualism combined with the desire to always project an image of the success of free-market has pushed the American society where it is now.

The situation is different in different countries and is determined by their historical involvements in wars etc. European nations, for example, are in a much better state where patriotism is not on incessant display. America is unique in the way that corporates exploit the consumers there. Whether it is the arms sellers, survival gear markets, Self-help market, Yoga and rejuvenation market. The American corporates have a panache to take something good and turn it into a product which is then exploited to the maximum possible extent.

This is why the culture of modern slavery is applicable to Americans more than anyone else in the world.

Without a doubt working hard is a requisite to become successful, but the keyword here is requisite, you have to have it if you want to achieve long term success but just because you work hard that doesn't mean that your success is guaranteed, as we know you need a lot of things in order to become successful, in my experience very few people have the necessary money skills to achieve a success that is long term.

For what I can see many people want to live a life of luxury, and there is nothing wrong with that but that kind of lifestyle is very expensive, the people that I have known that came from a humble background and reached success do in fact spend some money on luxuries, but only on those that they really want and when it comes to the rest they are very cheap and prefer to avoid to spend money unnecessarily.

Why do people allow themselves to be stolen? I think they actually don't, rather they sell themselves too cheap to these oligarchs in exchange of pennies and a false feeling of being cared. Most people in undeveloped countries aren't independent people who developed a critical sense. They actually need and want a ruler to tell them how to behave, what to do, what to think and everything else. That is what oligarchs do, and if you try to change this reality in benefit of these poor suffered people, you are actually going to be slandered and defamed by this same people, as they are manipulated by the oligarchs.

Good point, people don't give any importance to their savings, all they want is expensive things but they are getting all of them on loan money which should be avoided if you want to reach the success status in terms of money. Save money then buy assets or invest then buy the expensive things from the returns so you get the things you wanted with no risk and also you got assets now not the loans.

American Dream only works on capitalistic society with freedom and stuff. In developing country, they need freedom first, to be liberated from a tyrannical government that control every aspect of people's life, including economic freedom. Once the economic and political system is suitable for capitalism and meritocracy, the work becomes the most determining factor of someone's prosperity. That said, hard working slave is not equal to hard working freeman.

Come to realise this American dream and work ethics is just one PONZI, speak out loud you all feel this PONZI the American dream is harming yourselves because you work hard for the dream that make you poor yet make the top of the PONZI much richer, a ponzi that send money to the richest to even richer by printing massive amount of money and give it to them without condition, this PONZI is itself toxic system we already finally feel how horrible it bring to our well being, the ponzi is always here and getting even more ridiculous, it make you work even harder even more poorer and eventually all your hard work worth nothing to this PONZI.

This has to do with the views people have when it comes to money, many people do not really want to be rich, they want to feel rich, they want to buy anything they want without thinking on the long term consequences of doing so, so they buy a lot of things on credit since they can see immediate results but they bought all of those things with money that was not theirs and now they have to pay huge interests on those purchases.

Then if something happens, like a pandemic, they find out everything they build did not had a solid base and the they lose everything and they become bitter against the banks, government and society when it was their decision to get in so much debt, they could have waited and saved their money and could have bought most of that stuff for a cheaper price if they were just willing to wait.

Fact!

This is the reality that we are really having that kind of mindset and i cant really deny to myself or honestly speaking im bit guilty on that stuff where you do really want things to be get immediately
via credit.

It isnt really that bad as it sounds and as long you are really that responsible on paying up those debts then thats good and it turns out to be bad if you do get things which is
already surpassed into your limit or capacity on paying those.

People should work and be given opportunities to work based on their specific talents, and ambitions. According to Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the highest on the ladder is 'Self-Actualization', which is the expressed feeling of content of an individual after achieving his/her dreams. Sure, the American Dream applies to everyone who is living a western lifestyle, but altogether, everyone should strive and work for their Self-Actualization, doesn't matter if there is someone who is living off of some of your hard-earned work, just think of it as taxation to give these people a chance to better themselves as well and reach your level.

100% agree.

If you take a look at the reports of first-year analysts in major BB investment banks, you'll see this in action.

People are obsessed with doing as many hours as they can and wearing 100+ hr workweeks as a badge of pride.

Not only is this counterproductive (who can work 100+ hours and say for sure that they have done everything efficiently?), it is also a way for firms to extract value from abusive practices towards their employees.

Credit can be a useful tool if used correctly, after all who has enough money to buy their dream house with just cash? Very few, so it makes sense to ask for a credit to banks under those circumstances, however like always it has to do with being a responsible person when it comes to our money and unfortunately this is way more uncommon than what we think.

While I have been affected by the pandemic like everyone I am in a good shape because I think long term and I held no level of debt when all of this began, but there is a lot of people that I know which are in great trouble as they lost their jobs and they were nowhere near close to pay their homes and their situation is getting worse by the day simply because they thought they could always borrow from the banks in order to fulfill their desired lifestyle and they are finding this is not the case anymore.

Based on what I researched, they say that work began when Adam ate the forbidden fruit from Eva. It served as their punishment wherein they need to spend their blood and sweat just so they can survive. Later on, work became something where a man can satisfy his feeling of fulfillment while earning from it, Michelangelo and Da Vinci defined work as that way. At the present, working is necessary for survival still and it can also be considered as punishment if ever you are not doing what you love. Working has also been revolutionized through time and no one should be left out on finding modern solutions on how a man can earn more, just like how it is for crypto. Not everyone who work hard becomes successful, sometimes you just need to work in an intelligent way.