Bitcoin Forum

I couldn't put the full title in the subject line due to character restrictions, but here is the full question:
If bitcoin was fully adopted into everyday life, why would it ever be used for day-to-day transactions if the general consensus was that the price would always appreciate?

After reading several posts on this forum many people seem to think that Bitcoin will always go up. If this were to be the case, why would people spend Bitcoin at all? In this theoretical time, wouldn't it just be a poor financial decision to do?

Or is it thought that in this future where there is widespread adoption the price would stop being so volatile and for the most part stabilize?

Bitcoin price is determined by demand and supply, if people are selling Bitcoin, the price will be decreasing, if more people are buying bitcoin, the price will be increasing. So, I do not understand what you meant by consensus here, although the supply is limited to 21 million.

Why do people like to enjoy life before they die? I think that answers the question. Also, some people are just crypto traders, they sell and buy Bitcoin. Also, some people may go broke and have no option than to make use of some of their Bitcoin. Some people already seen enough profit and feel like selling some of their Bitcoin holdings, and many other reasons.

There is nothing like volatility will be stabilized, although Bitcoin price may become less volatile as the level of adoption increased which I think it is the question asked.

This is a really good question.

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1)
One mindset is it is a hedge against inflation. = hodl hodl hodl.

 This can drive the price up.  Say I have $1,000,000 and want an inflation hedge I have to find some one willing to sell it. This can drive the price up.

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2

Some people day trade 24/7/365. This churns the coins and in the long run should not make price go up or down

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3

every day LN adoption is the unknown if it happens world wide it will churn coins  it should not make the price go up or down





We are not sure if 2&3 will override 1

the coin is set in stone =21,000,000 so no inflation

rewards drop. mining cost pressure. both should rise price

2&3  add tx fees to help miners survive.

It is very much a balancing act. 2&3 need to be large enough to help mining work as profitable.

blocks are 6.25 soon to be 3.125 under 3 years  and 1.5625 under 7-8 years

It should be interesting to see this play out.

I have some sort of answer to that, I think it's probably the same as using a dollar to buy a candy, there's an exchange where you can trade foreign currency for your dollar. I think that it's the same as that although bitcoin is much more bigger in terms of growth plus wouldn't it be good that bitcoin is circulating through the usage of it as a transaction medium besides being a speculative asset?

It seems like this...Why you are here in crypto? To invest in bitcoin. Why you need to invest in bitcoin? To earn profit. Why you need to earn? Just to live and survive. To have money to spend for foods, clothes, house, cars, pay bills, hang outs, etc.... What’s the benefit of bitcoin if people don’t use it? Don't forget that bitcoin was created from zero value and now it was so valuable because of it's limited supply with a higher demand. And while adoption keep on increasing, bitcoin is become more useful not just as an asset but also as digital currency that people love to buy and sell.

Bitcoin is highly volatile and this will make it very hard to be use as daily means of payment for many businesses out there, I think the whole BTC idea is instability and that is what makes it the best, come to think of this if BTC is stable who will be using it today? Even if people use it there will be difference because there is zero gains in stable coins

1. Bitcoin goes up and goes down too. It has quite a wild range of price fluctuations. In general though, it goes up. But: I expect that after not too many more years the overall appreciation curve will no longer be this stiff and the "price going up" will not be such a big thing (it may go up at a rate similar to what current fiat goes down).

2. On short term, let's say from the monthly paycheck to the moment you'd spend (like for fiat) the price difference is quite often insignificant.

3. Although Bitcoin looks great now as long term investment, we don't live forever and we have to also "eat" today too. Hence:
- People who invested in the past does sell, at least now and then.
- People who earn bitcoin may sell now and then.
- Mining is a business. Miners pay for electricity and may have other expenses too. They also obviously sell.

So there are valid scenarios for also spending Bitcoin. And as I said, after more time will be passing, it should start making even more sense to spend too, not just hodl.

What you are seeing is something similar to the Gresham's law at work, we have two different types of currencies, fiat currencies and cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, and people are going to use the currency that loses value over time and they will prefer to keep the one that gains it, but what is the endgame? The endgame is that eventually we see a reversal and we see Thier's law in place and people will prefer to make transactions with a good currency and disregard the bad one, but how long is that going to take? No one really knows.

That's because they want to, they want to use it like a currency that can buy stuffs and services, nothing wrong with that plus if the seller favors to sell to someone at a discounted price to someone who pays in bitcoin. It's not always the speculative aspect that we should be focused on, remember that it's just half of what bitcoin is.

I think people are used to a currency that constantly lose value, so it will be a breath of fresh air for them to use a currency that appreciate in value. The long-term believe seem to be that a more even distribution of bitcoins will eliminate the "whales" that are causing these "Spikes" and "Dips" in the price.

I honestly think "Whales" will always exist, because there are some filthy rich individuals and groups.. that will always be in the position to buy a lot of coins. People will get used to the price cycle and they will capitalize on the "recovery" period. (Spending when it is on the Up and Up)  ;)

this is what makes it more interesting because if btc becomes stable it won't be monotonous and maybe even some people will tend to move because of this.
which makes bitcoin a coin that is loved by people because apart from its pluctative nature and this coin is interesting in terms of its fundamentals which makes people interested in adopting it and if btc is stable of course people will start to change direction and will be the same as other stable coins and bitcoin will become common thing

If you get your salary paid in Bitcoin, you will have no choice but to spend it on your living necessities as well as entertainment, hobbies, etc. From time to time I am selling small amounts of coins when I need some extra money for my purchases, and I never care that these money could be worth 10 times more in the future, because I live in the present, not the future. I'm not going to sit in my house all my life and wait for Bitcoin to go to the moon.

Situation. That's the main reason why people are using it for things that they need. If the person who holds bitcoin is in good situation and doesn't have to think of spending and selling his bitcoin, he'll be ending up holding it for long and there's no doubt with it.

But even if a person holds bitcoin, time will come that he has to sell it for such serious situation that he has no choice but to sell it at any price just because the situation permits.

Congratulations, you've identified the main problem with a deflationary currency- it disincentivizes economic activity.  That's why inflation is built in to our economic system and monetary policy.  It's a feature, not a bug. 

Majority of the countries in this world do no consider bitcoin as a legal tender and to be used as money one has to heckle a lot of fees to finally be able to convert bitcoin to fiat. But they can buy bitcoin for selling in future and therefore it is easier to hold as a mode of investment.

There is the reason why the use of bitcoin as an investment mode became more popular even though it was intended to be a mode of payment. In fact if today the fiat currencies were deflationary they would also have had a similar economy.

Cost of price can be adjusted and bitcoin is divisible up to eight decimal places. So let the price rise, but it can still be used as a currency, although it would become less attractive to use as currency if an alternative inflationary currency already exists.

Of course people have to spend to survive, they need food and basic services, so they have to pay. So if fiat did not exist, they will be forced to spend their bitcoin.

That's actually true. Every person here has their own needs and reasons why they are into crypto. Also, at some point even long time holders will sell if they see that the price is quite attractive for them. And a lot of us here are also waiting for the good timing in the market to sell some of our stash. Not many people can afford to hold long term as a lot of us here has needs to address especially during this pandemic. And besides, if everyone here is expected to hold long term, the supply and demand in the market will not be good.

Some uses it as for their convenience. You cant see it well cause you are only looking on the other reason why some uses it instead of holding it and becoming rich in the end.

Yes you are right this expensive digital coin is too expensive to spend right? Why not hodl it and sell it when the times come. However people that believe of use cases easily use their bitcoin for daily transactions. Some are even uses it for a simple payment terms.

Drop a merit for a very delicate question.

Feature that robs people that save money. Great feature ... pickpocket guy in crowded subway is also a "feature"?


"wouldn't it just be a poor financial decision to do?"

Eating is not a financial decision. Eating is a physiological need that must be satisfied. Same as owning a car, or a place to sleep. You spend money when you need goods. With deflationary currency you focus on saving and spending when you actually need something. I own BTC since 2017. Using it when it was 6k$, 10k$, 20k$, 40k$, 60k$. I don't care that price went up and I could buy 2 times more at ath. I needed stuff i bought using BTC when I bough them, not now, not after 10 years because people can't survive 10 years without food. It was not financial decision. Its financial decision when you have 1% in BTC 99% in fiats - you spend fiats. If you have 99% in BTC and 1% in fiats ... you spend BTC when you need goods.

You need to spend money on the basics of life from things you need to buy daily, newspapers, magazines, electricity, haircuts, and others. You can not stop spending money, but the increase in the value of money will make many people prefer to reduce their spending to increase their money.
Humans, by nature, tend to spend, so do not be afraid of this aspect. The price of 50 thousand dollars is enough for some people to sell and not enough for others.

Well, that's the thesis of Saylor, Keiser and others. They expect Bitcoin to continue to rise with significant returns for many years to come, as they consider Bitcoin the best financial asset in the world.

From that point of view, it is foolish to spend Bitcoin, at best lend it for yield or borrow against it (and refinance as it rises to continue to get liquidity for practically free).

Another thing is that in the future Bitcoin has acquired the status of a store of value and replaced gold. Then I guess it will be more stable and maybe it won't be so crazy to spend it.

If trading is among the use of bitcoin then it makes sense to use Bitcoin even if you expect it to go up all the time. You will need to trade it for cash and some only for stable coin.  If there is wide adoption that we can buy something with BTC, people will be using it too. I think the example of this is in El Salvador where they use BTC to buy in local stores.

It's the current state yes, but it doesn't mean it would last forever. As others have said, the price of Bitcoin is based on the simple logic of supply and demand, the price was never expected to always go up since the supply is limited. Most people who expect that Bitcoin would go up are thinking of the time frame where its supply would still be increased by a sizeable bit. By then, the only reason Bitcoin would actually increase in price would be if coins were lost permanently, companies hodl a huge amount (and at the same time, would probably incur a huge amount of loss), or there's a financial crisis where they used Bitcoin as a safe asset.

I think one of the most probable reason is whenever someone who is holding bitcoin experiences an emergency that requires financial aid and they have no option left but to spend their holding. Other reason could be they have already reached the certain target amount they are waiting for and it is now their time to cherish their earnings from bitcoin investment. Bitcoin's value is volatile in nature so the price wouldn't go high always although I get your point that no matter what, the only direction of this market is going up but still time is of the essence I guess that's why they want to enjoy life as they spend some of their holdings, maybe they will be dead the next day and they won't even reach the next bull run.

That's one of the reason we need to consider on why people choose to use their bitcoin instead to hold it, but one of the reason we can point out on why we see people use bitcoin is because they are not a holder and they only have limited capital so securing their profits is always on their minds. I saw so many people always put their earnings on their bank accounts and they totally making great on saving although its really regretful to sell early but if we think profit still a profit we can relax and cannot be affected on pumps or dumps.

Not all the bitcoiners are spending time to time; only active traders must be selling exact the same amount they do buy.

For example, I do earn bitcoin in various methods but to resolve all my monthly expenses my day job income alone is not sufficient which leads me to spend my bitcoin earning as well. Still, I with my all efforts to save at least 50% of my bitcoin earning on month basis. Also, I have cold storage wallet and whatever bitcoin is moved into that addy, I cannot spend for next 10 to 20 years.

I personally believe that bitcoin may have value in millions in next 10 years so saving bitcoins as much as possible will benefit me for sure still I cannot live for next 10 years without consuming food and paying bills.

This actually is a big paradox even I have talked about this on the forum many times, In fact, this is a problem with every deflationary currency, if price of something is getting higher and higher in longer-term a person would obviously never like to spend it, which means people will keep on holding it leading to scarce supply and ultimately this spiral continuing again. It's actually called deflationary spiral.

https://innovativewealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Deflationary-Spiral-2.jpg

Here is an image of a deflationary spiral starting with '"lack of demand"

Some people suggest that once there is enough adoption of bitcoin chances are that its price will stabilize but the truth is that it can't happen because of the supply getting more scarce and the natural tendency of economic growth.

Stability is something that is important when we talk about fiat, when we talk about other traditional currencies. When we are talking about bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies, the major fact is that most people prefer the price to be Volatile and these ups and downs are the ones making the market more acceptable for all classes, people invest here and HODL for a long period of time to see some good gains. I do think now it's not just about the price but about the applications too. Majors companies are accepting Bitcoins now, you are going to have a lot of options available if you are dealing with cryptocurrencies like bitcoins, I do think even if people are late they can still make profits in stuff like : Inter-day trading etc.

It's a good question really and leads to the point that Bitcoin is actually a victim of its own success. It has become such a desirable asset to own that people would rather hoard and hold on to it, rather than use it for the original intended purpose - which is a commonly used and functional virtual currency. Sure some people are using it for this purpose, however it seems the vast majority of buyers (as this forum is a perfect example of "HODL" culture) have little intention of spending it without cashing out a vast profit first. This combined with the natural depletion rate due to lost wallets and unused "dust" will ultimately wipe it out as a usable currency - it will become a novelty like gold that few except the super rich will find helpful to acquire when their are lots more altcoins taking its place.

Do not forget that anything that hoess up must surely comes down, the instance works with the financial markets. Price is meant to go up and come down forming different chat patterns inciting more comprehensive analysis of the market in general. If Bitcoin continues going up without a break, how will it be traded?  There will no buyers and sellers pool that will determines the next move of Bitcoin and it's altcoins. Two participants always determine the movement of an asset especially the one with higer force.

Bitcoin is conceived primarily as a digital currency. These days, for most people, its most tangible use is as an investment tool.

Bitcoin may do well as an investment. Or it may not. We will never know for sure, while the market for bitcoin as an investment vehicle is ramping up, the market for bitcoin as a currency is dwindling. But I think there will always be people willing to spend their coins. To begin with, miners sell bitcoin to cover their mining costs. Investors liquidate their investments for a variety of reasons. And finally, there are users whose salary is paid in bitcoin, who need to pay their daily living expenses.

With all the valid reasons listed above, i do think spending bitcoin will create an issue. After all, we get to invest or mine bitcoin for the sake of our own financial security and becoming stable these days.

And once bitcoin will reach its endpoint having to use it as a legal currency with the government supporting it, more likely its value will be less volatile or might be controlled just like fiat. But still, bitcoin will always have its great advantage over fiat in the form of currency or as an asset or investment.

It's part of circulation to make the economy healthy so there's noting wrong for someone to sell their bitcoins if they really need it, Maybe this only became an issue to a person who bought at high price and always convince people to hodl so that he can recover back his capital but this will never happen since not all bitcoin users can afford to hold. But maybe once there's a good news we can say a huge price hike since many will keep buy since this is the start of FOMO.

Yes, as a long time holder. I have no choice but to sell some but that won't make me sell everything that I have.

I have my discipline that I only need to sell whatever is needed by me and then eventually, if I have the opportunity to buy those back, I'll do that instantly as long as the price is quite low and I have ready cash to buy it.

We want to sell at the best prices so we're all waiting for that and as well as accumulate as much as we can and buy at the best price that we want to.

well its like why you invest your money into bitcoin in the first place?. im sure because you believe bitcoin could give you bigger return from other investments which you can use to fullfil your needs or buy something that you dreamed. Also bitcoin is made for transaction that are trustable and easy and many people start to accept it which no wonder why people shoping using their bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a digital currency, thus on spending btc it just serves the real purpose on why it was created. Its a currency that can be use to transact online so its quite normal for some of us to spend because of the convenience. Like for me its a convenient way to send money, an alternative to remittance without the need to go outside and fall in line. Yes many of us believe that in the long run the price will going to increase hence saving while the price is not expensive is a wise thing to do. However there are situation where we cant just "hold" even if we wanted to do like if we are really in need of money and taking profit on our bitcoin is the solution. Its one of the reason why holding is not easy specially for an average investors who only counts on his crypto profit.

The question is really good and after reading the answers here I don't see a direct answer at all. This is what characterizes the current situation with bitcoin. Indeed, it is now very little used as a means of payment and more as a means of accumulating value. This is partly due to the fact that the infrastructure for this has not yet been created and in many states there is still legal uncertainty, bitcoin still does not have a clear legal status.
 However, the main role here is played by precisely the expectation of the price growth of bitcoin in the foreseeable future. I personally think that someday bitcoin will stop in price anyway, but let's see how it will be in practice.

I am hearing about this argument for so long. A lot of people claim that no one will use Bitcoin as a currency, if it's value goes up almost constantly. I don't think that is the case and in fact I would say it is one of the plus points of Bitcoin. Let's take an example, where you need to do some shopping and pay utility bills. You need $300 in total to do this. Now this expenses are spread out over several weeks.

If you want to pay using fiat currency, then you need to store this much amount in the bank account and make the payment when they are due. The exchange rates will remain constant. On the other hand, if you store this money in the form of Bitcoin, then there is a good chance that by the time you make the payment, your initial $300 might have grown to $330 or even $360. So overall, it is beneficial for the user.

In my opinion, it is a waste to use Bitcoin for payment now. I think the value of Bitcoin will become higher and higher, so it will not be used for payment in daily life. If it is a transnational large payment, I will choose bitcoin, because this is the advantage of bitcoin.
So when the volatility of Bitcoin is stable and more and more people hold bitcoin, they will choose bitcoin for their daily payments.

If all investors keep holding and not selling because of the expectation of rising Bitcoin, the price of Bitcoin will show a downward trend. Therefore, if you want to hedge against inflation and push the price of Bitcoin, you must keep Bitcoin liquid and continue to trade.
Bitcoin as an investment has a good storage value, but there will always be people who use Bitcoin for transactions for daily consumption or some countries that prohibit Bitcoin need to convert Bitcoin into legal tender.

Indeed, based on your explanation, making payments using Bitcoin will be more profitable than making payments with fiat. Because the price of
Bitcoin is likely to rise, while fiat will remain. But it will be useful if the price of Bitcoin goes up, what if the price goes down. We also need to think
about the worst that will happen, so with Bitcoin's volatile price, many people still choose fiat to pay the bills. I also still choose to use Bitcoin as
a digital asset, the reason is because the price of Bitcoin is volatile, it is too risky to use Bitcoin as payment.

Interesting question that got me into thinking also but I think most replies have already answered your question.

Just to add, what drives the price of BTC is the law on supply and demand. When people sell their BTCs, the price goes down and when they purchase it, the prices increases. As there are wealthy people who trade BTCs on a daily basis (by taking advantage of its volatility), this affects its price on the market. Not to mention, since BTC has a significant value, some have already sold their BTCs to cash for their personal expenditures.

Since at the moment we probably do not know 100% for what exactly Bitcoin was invented and launched, it can be assumed that it is a kind of new financial assets, which at the moment are best used as a store of value, as well as to preserve your funds. from inflation. Of course, the price of BTC cannot constantly go up, and we see this in the example of a fall in price, and then again its growth, which, in principle, is shown by other assets. I also believe that it will not be possible to keep BTC all the time, because in the end everyone will want to fix their profit and be sure to sell their Bitcoin for this.

I can say that the demand for bitcoin will be higher than the fiat currency you will have the money to use the fiat currency for shopping you may have to transact it through the bank but it is easier to trade with bitcoin here you can easily pay for everything with your own bitcoin as the market fluctuates, its value increases. Bitcoin is more profitable because there is no such move for Fiat currency the exchange rate at bitcoin increases all the time.

Don't forget, bitcoin was created to give people personal freedom and control over their money. While the mainstream media and economic experts say it is just a tool for speculation. Those are the two sides of bitcoin and you'll want to use them regardless of whether it's practical or not in your opinion.

Because it is fully decentralized and has a fast transaction without the need of a middle man unlike the financial institution, because of having financial freedom and not tied to the clutches of the government, for the purpose of liberation and many other reasons some people could think of,  I guess only people who are in this school of thought will understand and buy btc at any cost without hesitation.

To answer your question, I can say I know many people who don't actually 'spend' bitcoin and they just hold it in long term to get benefits. However, sometimes due to personal economic issues, people will have to use their bitcoins and spend the savings to buy stuff. Also, you may don't know but because of the economic sanctions or privacy stuff many people can not have the master card/visa card or Paypal, and in order to buy stuff online or receive the online premium services, they will have to use bitcoin as an alternative payment method.

Maybe the price is going to stabilize when there is much adoption. I think for now that it is still growing, there is always going to be an expectation that it is going to increase in value. And especially times when there is halving, everyone usually looks forward to the time the market price will go up.

This is normal because when there is a decrease in the rate of supply, then you should be looking forward to an increase in price since demand is going to be high at times like this. So, the question is what would now happen when there is no other supply coming and there would be no other halving? I believe the price will be really stable by then.

The extent of bitcoin's price volatility may be decreasing as adoption is increasing, but Bitcoin price can never be stabilized or stable, it will have be fluctuating. Do not forget that some people will always trade it, I mean scalping, day, swing, and future trading, and other form of margin trading, this will always make the price to be volatile. Also people will use it for day to day buying and selling reasons which can not let the price not volatile. But the more the adoption, the lesser should be the volatility.

Why do people only look at the spender side as well, I get that there are good sides and bad sides of spending bitcoin, but why only the spender? If a person spends bitcoin somewhere, that means that another person has earned bitcoin somewhere right? That is why people could be using bitcoin, because there are people who wants bitcoin to begin with.

That is why I honestly believe that we should be considering this as an option or a reason for it, if I own a game company and willing to sell my game for crypto, there will be some people who would be willing to buy it, if I own a Laundromat that takes crypto I am sure even that will get something, vending machines too, doesn't matter who and why but there will be "some" who will. It is not about the number of spenders, it is about number of sellers, if we have everyone around the world accepting bitcoin, we will see a lot more spenders as well.

It may seem silly and irrational now, but try to picture the situation this way.

Right now Bitcoin is precious and, indeed, many want to hold on to it, because it will be a great profit in the future. But with the years passing and Bitcoin getting closer to 21m the degree of price increase won’t be that significant. But more importantly, if (when) Bitcoin is widespread you won’t be afraid to use it in everyday life. Firstly, you won’t be using a large portion of it. Say you’ll have 1 BTC worth of $100,000.

So assuming you only spend, monthly you’d be only using around 0.01 BTC. And the more the price grows - the smaller portion it would be. But then again, in a world where Bitcoin is widely adopted, you might get paid in Bitcoin, so you won’t actually be losing any of it. Your friend borrowed BTC - you get your money back in BTC, you made a purchase in BTC - you sold something in BTC, etc. So the idea is, that no one will keep Bitcoin to themselves because it would be in circulation.

Also, consider this: in poor, developing countries people think of USD the same way you think of BTC “why spend it if I can store it and get profit, or use it as a hedge?”, but the rest of the world is fine buying a pizza with $, right? So, hopefully, in a more stable economical environment and easy access to Bitcoin, we won’t face such a problem.

Though I have to admit, that is a possibility.

Yes, lately the trend is never sell and mortgage it and get loan to spend. It will be used in many different ways, but to buy a cup of coffee is not that important, although doable

It is mostly about those higher level financial usage that normal people typically have no knowledge of. For example, if the pension fund decided to buy bitcoin ETF, then it will impact everyone's future pension, while they might never know about it at all.

If everyone adopted the bitcoin and using it for day to day usage then the price is not going to increase anymore, it will only increase according to the population growth of this world but its a very gradual process so it won't be a noticeable one like now.

But I never thought about bitcoin is the only currency used by everyone in this world because its not possible and the actual blockchain can't handle such huge number of transactions.

And I think a great deal of the people in this market think that they are correct as it is almost unthinkable that the price of bitcoin is not going to go up during the next decades, however I think that the creator of this thread is making a mistake, you can spend your bitcoin and use it for whatever you want just make sure to use your fiat to buy bitcoin after you do so, that way even if the price of bitcoin went up significantly during that timeframe you're still going to have bitcoin at hand which at the end of the day is all what matters.

What people say doesn't mean that it's true. Nothing can grow enormously, without limits, especially the currency and also, bitcoin isn't mean for massive usage, it won't be able to handle a number of billion daily users. At the moment we can say that bitcoin's price rises after every halving, we don't exactly know what will happen once the halving ends and all the bitcoins will be mined. Also, with the help of futures trading, you can make money on Bitcoin's price rise and fall, so, this will again strengthens the power of the bear market.

Also, another thing: If the society holds something and doesn't use, then it loses value. Let's hold gold and don't use it, what will be the value of this? Also, value is the psychological factor too.

It would just be good for alternative payment system but imho it wouldnt able to play such same role on how fiat is been doing and volatility would be the main  problem of that.

People would normally think off about high  prices or  bitcoin had already become  a store of value which i really cant blame off basing on the history on how it did become so huge

then it  would be just normal that people would be thinking off holding for future profits.If it becomes mainstream but i dont see the reason for it to replace fiat anytime soon.

Nothing goes up forever, even the law of gravity has prove it and the same ideology will always be applied to our daily life.
We are all investing to secure a good future and we don't want our $1 to depreciate in value due to growth of inflation we are experiencing. If inflation growth continues with this geometry, it will be a disaster for everyone. This is why everyone is investing in bitcoin and hoping it continues to grow in value.
Now, people invest with different strategies, some are normal traders who after getting gain, they sell off while some prefer to hold for a very long time.

Well, Bitcoin is supposed to be used to spend or use it to transact p2p in a daily basis without the need of the banks to approve the transaction globally. But because of it's high volatility, people tend to consider Bitcoin as a store of value and doesn't want to spend it instead wait for it to pump and then sell.
Another fact, people cannot continue holding Btc without having a liquidity because If that happens Btc might gradually lost it's value as a currency.

The truth is people always have pressing needs and because they live in the present spending some of their bitcoin will certainly make perfect financial sense at that time irrespective of whether the price would go up.

It is however a poor financial situation to always spend fractions from your bitcoins even when you have an alternative.

The example of the artwork I like I have already mentioned it several times, Nobody wants to sell your  beautiful painting of Picasso.

With the Bitcoin the same thing happens, we go Open Mind, you can not generalize in the trend, although Bitcoin becomes a very valuable asset the retail or the big buy/sales according to the case they will always be there, someone for some reason will have Satoshi to buy a coffee and someone will have BTC to buy a jet.
A picture of Picasso is not sold every day but someone is going to buy it. Sale and purchase is an innate process to asset.

Regarding your last question I do not know how real that a generalized adoption causes little / a lot of volatility, this is a latent term of any asset, perhaps when its price is very high a volatility of a percentage unit causes the same effect of nowadays.

The price of Bitcoin is volatile, it is unstable, and no one can guarantee that its price will rise forever.
Most traders use its volatility to continuously buy and sell Bitcoin to obtain high profits.
There are still many countries that do not support the use of bitcoin. In those countries, bitcoin cannot be used for transactions. They must exchange bitcoin for legal currency when they consume daily.

I wonder if Op has researched how real currency worked in the old/ancient times. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of them appreciated in value, meaning their prices increase in relation to prices of goods and services. So, if you save some money at  home back in those days, you would expect that the price of the money would increase whenever the price increases in open market.
I actually think a real currency should be anti-inflationary and good Store of Value... that's what Bitcoin is basically meant to be. If you save $50 worth of Bitcoin for 5years where a bag of rice is worth $50,  and you withdraw the Bitcoin after the 5years... if the Bitcoin is worth $100 while the bag of rice is $70, the Bitcoin appreciation in value in relation to the price of the rice makes it anti-inflationary currency and a good Store of Value.

No one can but people having faith in it's prices going up is enough to not worry that it's not going to go up forever and even if that happens, I don't think that we will be alive at that time when it happens. Those countries that you're talking about, they will eventually fold, remember that they care about public opinion and if their people cares about bitcoin, they will eventually change their allegiance.

Yes, the expected outcome is that once bitcoin has sufficient adoption, its price should stabilise.

Besides, there is no reason why bitcoin has to be a currency that is actively used. It can definitely still be good as a store of value even if its ability to serve as a currency may be diminished.

But bitcoin at the end of the day is not designed to be deflationary. It is disinflationary - which means that we will stabilise eventually as adoption levels continue to climb, and bitcoin reaches that 21 million hard cap. Higher prices due to increased adoption levels should be the least of everyone's concerns here.

For me personally it is more about bitcoin getting at the hands of others so that they would like it and I would gain more from it, not maybe personally but the general bitcoin world. Think about it this way, you have a company and you own 100% of it, but it makes 100k a year, then you give 50% away to Elon Musk, and now you only own 50% of the company, but he takes it to a billion dollars, now you own half a billion dollars worth of company instead of 100k.

As you can see you lost half of your company but now your half worths more than fully of what it used to be. Same logic here, if we all used and spend bitcoin that will make bitcoin grow bigger, so 1 bitcoin I have worths 45k now, but if we all spend it then bitcoin will become 100k and my 0.5 bitcoin will become 50k and I will be in profit. That type of logic will make bitcoin grow bigger, or at least that is what I think.

its already happening in most people . they use btc in their daily lives whether whether for daily trading if they are traders or simply by spending thier btc because they love it more than other payment methods  . to the people that spend their btc i think they dont care much on the increasing value .
they do this because they are a true supporter of btc and this is the real use case of btc  .

You see that is the problem, there are a lot of people who are want bitcoin to used as a currency which is the reason it was created, and others who see as just an investment and an asset that should be held and sold at a higher profit, and because of the imbalance in these forces the price of the bitcoin is quite volatile ( more demand and less supply) , and to be honest i don't see this changing because the higher the price the more people want to invest in it for profit, so the idea of bitcoin as a currency is starting to fade out.

It should not go up forever, once the demand and use is widespread, it should progressively become more stable or its value should go up, but maybe not as much as other alternative investments. Like everything else out there, growth is never unlimited. Perhaps the difference is that if bitcoin reaches an overprice or bubble it may be quite difficult to identify due to its tradition of being a very volatile asset in general. That is where the investors that have a hint have the upper hand.

Why would anyone sell gold if they ever think it's going to go up.  The same holds true for tons of appreciable assets.  Using bitcoin not only increases the chances that it will go up but accomplishes what it was meant to do.  Will it go up yeah, but if you are going to use fiat to buy things what's the difference with buying bitcoin and when needed use it for transactions.  Tax wise it's a pain in the ass that would be the only downside.

The existence of transactions in bitcoin also increases the value of bitcoin, which is why in the past so many people supported a service payment platform or any services to using crypto. because if transactions is used by other people, the demand for bitcoins will also increase and the community will become larger. but with bitcoin prices this high right know I think many prefer other cryptos that have lower value and are stable in volume on the marketcap.

Whether we like it or not, that really the thing that we are able to see. Not all have bought and just hold for a lifetime as it never makes sense for me. I bought this because I've wanted to use this while I'm still alive, not after death.

Honestly, we are not sure how long this Bitcoin would exist and that is why someone has to sell. Because if we all just buy and hold, I can't imagine what going to happen in the market. And I don't know how this can be appreciated and how this fulfills the thing to be called currency.  Buy and sell that really it involves as that was the nature in the market.

Everyone sees volatility as a bad thing but in general it's helpful, what goes up and doesn't come down is HYIP and in a matter if time they crash hard and never grow again, BTC is the best because it's highly volatility I see that as balancing and surviving for long term

Besides that, volatility also helps newbies to get in at a much lower price when the prices are going down or in the bear market. Plus, having that volatility makes it less susceptible to manipulation or prediction of where it will go next. For me, it's only on whim or that they want to experience using bitcoin like how you spend a fiat, that's probably the reason why they use bitcoin like that.

You make it sound like volatility is the backing of Bitcoin. I don't understand how high volatility helps in a currency's survival. I scalp the small dumps for profits and I'm okay with the occasional dump but volatility is not a factor that as you say balances and survives bitcoin. According to your theory, stable coins will eventually crash since they are not very volatile

If in a certain situation the use of Bitcoin provides you with sufficient utility such that you feel the use is justified, why not use it even if you expect it to go up further? The time concept comes into play here as well. If you have to make a decision that is aligned with your preference curve and using Bitcoin today provides you with more utility then keeping Bitcoin and gaining an expected 10% more value over the next four weeks, using it makes sense. The rest has been said here, if you have no choice, I guess you have no choice but to use it! ;)

Let me add: Maybe you got kidnapped or hacked and the criminals want you to use Bitcoin! :P Even if you expect it to go up, I suppose you are going to use it regardless. ;)

OP, take note of jaysabi's answer here, because I think it's probably the best one I've read so far (and I haven't read this thread in its entirety).  I don't know if everyone expects bitcoin to only increase in value, but its volatility alone discourages its use because people see that there's a very real potential to miss out on profits if they spend it.

And that's only one of several reasons why people don't use bitcoin to buy things all that much.  Bitcoin will never become a viable alternative to fiat currency unless fiat ends up failing all over the world, all at once--and I seriously doubt that's going to happen in our lifetime.  But the main reason is indeed bitcoin's deflationary nature, which is the basis of your question.

People use their Bitcoin in different ways, some see it as an asset more than using it as a currency but the general consensus of bitcoin is never the price to always appreciate and the last time I check no currency, asset or commodity whatsoever will ever surge in price. Besides, the volatile nature of the market won't allow that.

If bitcoin would be mass adopted by most countries, it would act like a currency itself that can be used for transactions. Bitcoin being one of the modes of payment will be a fulfillment of its intended purpose because it was made to be a currency in the first place and not really a form of investment. Although soon after it was marketed, it became an investment vehicle for most people because it has shown the potential that no other coins exhibited. To add, it is also not prone to inflation unlike with fiat which enticed most investors to make it a store of value.

Using it in everyday scenarios could possibly happen and I think people wouldn't opt to spend it on anything that they could buy with fiat (only if bitcoin would retain its volatility). Like what you said when they know its value would increase soon after, why would they spend it with something they can buy with physical money the moment they exchanged their btc with fiat?

However, when this time comes, I think the volatility of bitcoin would lessen compared to the time people are just holding it. If the time comes that bitcoin could be used in daily transactions such as buying groceries, I guess this will be the time that the value of bitcoin would be more stable. Its price unpredictability will decrease. The gap between the pump and dump positions wouldn't be that massive and it would function as a normal currency there is, except it is decentralized and scarce.

In fact, many people know that bitcoin will increase in value over time, but many of them have not dared to take a step, this is a dilemma because if we want to be successful, we have to get out of the box that always shackles us, until in the end we don't sorry that we are late to step up, and as time goes on of course we will be forced to use it, so what are you waiting for

Each of us has their own kind of reasons why they keep on using their bitcoin in their transactions rather keep it on hold for a long term and that's fair enough because we don't know their reason. But for me in my case I keep on using my crypto asset even I say that it is expected to go up because it has a more value what I mean is using a single token but with a huge market value is enough to transact and sometimes we may feel satisfied whenever we take gained from our hardships.

It's difficult to know but I think that back then taking into account that the number of products that you could buy with your money was very low and there were very few increases in production then it is likely that the prices were very stable, however thanks to the Industrial Revolution and the multitude of products and services that we have now a currency like bitcoin will without a doubt buy more each passing year even if it doesn't appreciate in price.

well making a transaction using crypto is something especially bitcoin,  back in the days when i used to buy a cdkey.. i often spent more than 0.1 bitcoin in daily basis,  guess its really fun to look back and compare with the current price,  damn yeah $4,600 daily and overall 15 days consecutively equals to around $70,000!

crazy but a fun way tho, given the fact that there is a lot of altcoins with much less transaction fees, i swithched to altcoins as a payment crypto currency.

don't expect the price of bitcoin to be stable, it won't be possible due to the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.  this is the magic of Bitcoin, people can use it as an investment asset and also as a currency depending on the needs of the holder.  bitcoin price will not always up but i always consider bitcoin is my safe haven.

OP, I'm sure there are other users who are willing to explain to you that bitcoin is a new innovation for any network or payment system. Regardless of how expensive it is now and how much it can afford to go up, bitcoin will still be used as a means of payment because that is its main function.

Price volatility should not be a burden for bitcoin users to use it as a currency in their daily life. People can use it as a trading and investment asset and I don't think it will change its main function. Adoption will make volatility lower and bitcoin will remain suitable as a mean of payment regardless of price volatility.

And this is what is happening right now. People are just holding it because they hope that the price will keep on increasing. Some are using the volatility as an advantage to make quick profit. Less people are using it as a regular currency because of some issues that arise during high network usage such as very high transaction fees and confirmation waiting time. But I guess as the marketcap starts to grow bigger, the currency will become less and less volatile. We will eventually find a solution to all existing problems and hence start using it as a regular currency. Maybe after few years, but not now.

If good to switch to altcoin as payment cryptocurrency if we're to think of the benefits of Bitcoin in the future but if it is because of the transaction fee, Bitcoin tx fees are still fair these days.
However, all you guys said is off-topic cause what the OP asks is why we use BTC if the price was to go up which I believe if we want BTC to be mainstream of payment people also need to use it for payment.

The price of Bitcoin has been rising. The value of Bitcoin has also been rising. Because we make money, we will sell Bitcoin. However, for daily payments, legal tender is still used. More convenient.
Payment with Bitcoin protects our privacy and there is no third-party supervision. safer.

We all have different goals when we hold bitcoin. A few years ago when the price was just still quite low, we're wanting it to see $10k-$20k. And when those prices were hit, our goals are going to be bigger than the last goal that we've set. That's why each stage and level that we reach, the expectation and goal is getting bigger and increasing because of what we've experienced and we're having the idea that in the future, bitcoin's limit is the sky. But if we have to sell and we have an important reason for that, we will see no matter what goal we have.

You will have to understand why people decide to HODL, sell or even want to acquire more at every buying/selling point. Your question is to each his/her opinion. Maybe swinging for daily profit could be the main reason buying at the top. Few people could be buying to save them up for their future generations.

For daily payments, I'm also more comfortable with fiat because that's the only legal thing in my country...

for bitcoin I make it as my long-term investment I sell some for necessities and hold some for the long term. I'm sure the price will go up but it's still volatile.

You are talking about the use of bitcoin in daily life? Actually, it's not possible because of the volatility in the bitcoin market. Right now the only use of bitcoin is as an investment asset. The long-term holders usually don't sell bitcoin. Only bitcoin miners and short-term holders sell bitcoin to make a profit by using speculation. And some people sell bitcoin in need of money.

For me, as for every investment, there is an expected return in terms of profits so, with Bitcoins investment, over time the investor is equally hoped to be in profits so it is this profits that investors will be looking forward to spending whether directly as Bitcoin for whatever payments or exchanged for Fait. However, there could also be a time when an investor might decide to cash out totally depending on their reasons regardless of whether Bitcoin still could rise in the near future.

A lot of people expect the price of bitcoin to go up because it is driven by demand and supply. And since it is still a new thing, there are lots of people who are yet to join the community, and with time we will get to see a lot of them join the community and invest their money. So since the market is driven by demand and supply, you’re going to see an increase at anytime. That’s why if you check the market chart, the market has been growing from year to year.

But then, everyone has a purpose as to why they are making use of bitcoin, there are people who are using it as a payment method and there are those who prefers it as an investment, just do what works for you.

Even for those who chose to hodl bitcoin for a long term, eventually they will sell it in its perfect time and spend bitcoin for its purposes. I think even with the present time, bitcoin is already used as a currency  because some use if for buying or any payment method.

However, bitcoin does not destined forever as a tool for investment because once the government approve its widespread adoption, it should also be used as a currency  and maybe by that time, its price volatility will somehow be lessen. And of course, bitcoin can only serve its purpose if it will be utilized as a full currency rather than using it purely as an asset or investment.

This is basically a hodlers thought and most bitcoin enthusiast too. I can't say I don't think the same myself but then, bitcoin was developed to serve as a currency and its gradual deviation from being a currency to an asset is where the problem with spending bitcoin comes. Yes, there is the problem of fees and confirmation time but, the singular thought of it as an asset gives you the impression of loosing a part of your portfolio  everytime you spend a Sat. So, it's advised that you spend only when you've got no option or its of the most convenient.

This is what is hoped but, we can never find out until the last bitcoin is mined and perhaps bitcoin gets a global adoption. Even at that still, the law of demand and supply will still continue to play out.

Thanks OP, for your question. I think the answer can be varied because everyone has their own purpose with bitcoin.
I have used bitcoin for my daily needs through P2P exchanges. But as I saw that bitcoin had more interest for more investors around the world I could realize that bitcoin was changing level.
We have seen how the latest events on bitcoin have been relevant to its future. From that moment I told myself I am not going to spend any more bitcoin, instead I am going to spend another coin to know where bitcoin is going and celebrate that moment.

I will save bitcoin for the future of my underage relatives that will be my goal.

I also think that bitcoin should continue to be the market leader with the highest percentage of dominance for developers to think about creating convenient solutions to make bitcoin more usable.

It is actually possible. There are people that can finely use bitcoin in their daily lives. Remember the bitcoin family that has sold their property and lived life through bitcoin? they're now worth a lot and with the last time I have an article about them, they now scattered their wealth over 3 countries. And with their journey, I think since 2017 or 2016, they've used bitcoin for each purchase that they have. I don't know if that's for real but that's what I've read in some articles a long time ago and that has followed their journey. Even a haircut, he said that he has spent bitcoin for it.

The majority of us are using it as an investment but it doesn't stop the main purpose of it as payment.

There are so many factors that force people to sell their Bitcoins in the short term, even though we all know the price of Bitcoin continues to rise.
But sometimes everyone has an urgent need and because of that some people choose to sell their Bitcoins. Not all investors have good and stable
finances, so it is very lucky for people who can hold Bitcoin in the long term. Therefore we must have a steady job, in order to have a steady income
every month. That way the salary we get, some we can buy Bitcoin, Bitcoin accumulation in the long term, can make us become rich people.

It is an exxageration that daily products price will change too much if market becomes too volatile. You can prove it yourself by doing some simple calculations. The drop/rise in BTC vs USD needs to be more than 10% to make a significant price change in the  price of any article. However for a shop using bitcoin for payment, the owners can use adjustments to keep the prices fixed.

Another method is to directly accept BTC as payment. These are all possible if someone is willing to use it. But then why does it not become popular in countries outside the US? The reason is lack of government support.

Since spending bitcoin is out of the options, therefore holding it as an asset becomes more popular. It can change in future if governments are more lenient towards use of crypto and then the scenario will change. The prices will not longer rise this high or become stagnant at certain ranges.

I actually resonate with this statement.
I guess it would still feel the same as today, even though it will continuously go up, I don't think it would be a bad decision to spend it.
Just in my view, If it is widely adopted and we pay and get paid in bitcoin, the circulation would be better. I think the price will only gradually change.

I think it was because they still have fear on losing to much. Not all people put their trust in bitcoin and its' volatility. or maybe they are not patient enough to wait for good timing. And also they are affected by some people or fake news. Or just they need it already. There are really many factors why people spend their bitcoins.

this is a very good problem i appreciate your question , in my own opinion you are talking about the value of BTC going up and why they sell and use it but not buy storage Enter and keep the price up?
1. I want to talk about the issue of thought and thinking of each person is different as well as the value they invest differently. Some people just set a goal and when they reach that value they sell.
2. are newcomers to some of these markets and are manipulated by price drop sentiment they cut their losses and BTC value will drop by these people
These are just a few examples that I can see, how about you?.

Assuming the cost of transaction fees continues to remain at it's current lowest prices, if you were wanting to make a $100 purchase, then you buy $100 worth of bitcoin (probably a tiny bit more to cover subsequent TX fees) then make your purchase of a $100 item. 

Essentially, it doesn't matter what the price of bitcoin is if you buy BTC then spend that BTC more or less straight away.

There's truth in what you've said. Even I've got already confidence for bitcoin and been holding it for years, I want to take some profit and that's why I have to sell and take my profit with it so that I won't be missing some profits if it starts to correct. But the other thing happens, it keeps going up after selling but that's okay. I've anticipated those actions after selling and it's not really a coincidence because there were many times that I did the wrong timing.

Price won't stop being volatile because that's the characteristics of a cryptocurrency's decentralized being. Maybe there's a random state that it will stabilize but I foreseen worldwide adoption will make these things possible that price will rise consistently. Every persons mindset will always begun to influence one by one, and that's beyond imagination to see how bitcoin popularity gather the most praises all over the world.

Bitcoin already make a history to get higher and higher value in the long run thats why almost lot of crypto user and enthusiast saying that it will goes up always. And for your question why people spending their bitcoin because it depend on them of how they make profit from it not just by Hodling but by just trading if they want their bitcoin multiply to their wallet and what do you mean poor financial decision? the main reason for it is the volatility of bitcoin some of them dont want to lose their investment thats why they sell it and trade it.

More and more companies now accept Bitcoin as a payment method. It has become the world's first widely recognized cryptocurrency. Bitcoin will be accepted and recognized by some large companies, because people have seen the advantages of using Bitcoin, anonymity and fast transaction speed. The advantage of Bitcoin payment is that the transaction speed and cost remain the same regardless of which country the transaction is conducted with.
After Bitcoin is accepted, the fluctuations in the value of Bitcoin will decrease, but there will always be people who trade Bitcoin and others will use it for daily payments.

This (argument made by OP) may sound logical theoretically. But in real life it is not always the case. If people never sell their high performing assets, then no one will be selling their stocks of AMZN, MSFT and TSLA. But that is not the case. Investors have a fair idea about when to book their profits. They keep a part of their holdings for the long term, and keep the rest in semi-liquid form. And when there is a need, you need to spend some of your holdings, as the only other option is to take a loan (which I would never prefer).

There should always be selling for bitcoin to have a good market circulation. If there are only a few who will use it, few merchants will accept bitcoin as payments.

In some cases, people need money leaving them no choice to sell it.

Others also want to take chances of the dip. Selling it at a high price they consider will give them a chance to accumulate more when the price goes dip.

I am someone who has kept most of my Bitcoin stash for the long term. But that hasn't prevented me from making payments using Bitcoin every now and then. Because I book my profits on a regular interval. For profit booking, I either convert my coins to fiat directly, or use some of my coins to pay bills and purchase gift cards. And the latter scenario is what the OP is mentioning. I know about a few guys who are adamant that they will never sell their coins before the exchange rate reaches $1 million, but don't count the majority of the users among them.

Your whole assumption is based on expectation so it's pointless what others think or what crypto investors think. If bitcoin is expected to rise then its gonna rise at some cost. Nothing in this world is free, it comes at great cost and if bitcoin is supposed to go upwards only then obviously this will take great deal of investment from the same users who are expecting the prices to go up. This means, there will be enforcement of mining farms running 24x7 to confirm our transactions, there will be non-ending trading fiesta live 24x7, big whales moving market up-down, creating that buzz for the crypto world and that very volatility which will give rise to new portfolio's.

The bitcoin adoption is really big thing. If bitcoin gets adopted throughout the globe, then it will change the current theory of yours. Let's not forget we are moving real $$ to buy the crypto in one world (fiat) and then transacting our bitcoin and alts in the other for various purposes. The driving force exists!

Owning a lot of money doesn't necessarily equate to being wealthy or rich. In Venezuela this is the case. I believe people would come to appreciate Bitcoin more once it had served its primary purpose which is to act as a better form of currency than Fiat. This is because contrary to Fiat that inflated every year, Bitcoin is deflationary, and as time passes by this allows people to purchase and enjoy goods and services for a lesser price than before, allowing for a much more economic society. Main reason why people held bitcoins anyway is because it shows promise in more ways than one, so you're correct in supposing that we shouldn't assume as if the majority of Bitcoin enthusiasts are to only sell their holdings after bitcoin's $1 Million breach which is still far from being a reality at least today.

Should you have a pressing need with no funds at hand or an alternative source, how then do you satisfy that need without selling a portion of your bitcoin portfolio? In an investment, you must stand to understand the point at which, you could say your making profit or a considerable amount of profit that suits your investment purposes and that is a win. Value is always going to play around in the price of bitcoin and no single person would be able to gain in on all its value else, your most likely to never enjoy any returns on your investment and that won't make a lot of sense. At some point, you've just got to sell with a reason.

We hope that bitcoin is more actively used not only for see in the wallet, if bitcoin is only stored then this is speculation that can make the price fall at any time in a short time, different if bitcoin is actively used it will be stable and increasingly encourage many countries to accept bitcoin.

Because they want to use it, it's that simple, they want to use because they can plus it makes Satoshi happy that what he intended for bitcoin to be used for is still being used. There's nothing wrong with that and I don't think that it's a big deal for anyone that someone is spending their bitcoin instead of just hodling it.

We all need to sell at least part of our hodlings for real life needs. These people will sell btc. Alsom weak handers will sell it too

Well, but I actually like the point made in OP. You consider a situation like this.

- The price of BTC will only move higher -

Now given that you have some BTC and you want to buy something in the market why would you ever spend your bitcoins? Surely the bitcoins you hold aren't the last and only a bit of money you have.

One answer could be because bitcoin in a lot of places keeps you anonymous while other payment methods don't. If someone wants to pay for porn anonymously, they would never opt for PayPal.

It's nearly impossible to go through each comment so if someone has already answered it, sorry to repeat it.

Because, bitcoin doesn't exist in isolation. There are hundreds of crypto which are even more profitable and yeah bitcoins won't be probably used for daily transactions because you want to save them but surely there will be traders. In fact, if bitcoin is not used for small transactions that's great news because that reduces the transaction cost and more coins for everyone technically.

We all know the price of properties (or land) will usually go higher, right? Yet there are sellers and buyers in abundance.

You said price has been rising and the value has been rising, what is the difference between price and value? I thought the price determined the value of an assets? That's exactly what's bitcoin portray.
One of the many ways of adoption of bitcoin has been payment through lightning network, it allow mobile payments without dependent on the network and the transaction fee is very light and smooth but it's centralized because of the channels used in making this payment, there has to be sort of agreement too.

If you plan to utilize bitcoin for trading, it makes sense to do so even if you expect it to rise steadily. You'll have to trade it for cash, and part of it will only be traded for stable coins. People will use BTC if it becomes widely accepted that we can buy something with it. I believe El Salvador is an example of this, where BTC is used to purchase goods in local stores.

Removing coins from the market makes the coins still in the market move valuable because the supply is limited. So price would rise and not fall.

Now spending bitcoin is a choice depending on whether the owner has access to bitcoin-accepting merchants or not. Most countries do not have such merchants, mind you. Hence we are currently not seeing what would actually happen once this becomes more mainstream.

I think acceptance comes first before usage but acceptance catalysing more usage seems understandable too but that happens after sometime.

The basic flaw in the OP is that we compare bitcoin to a fiat. We never consider a doughnut to be priced at 10sats but always with fiat like 1.2USD or something. (random numbers, not basing on conversion rate.)

It is like this, and assuming that all people have different needs, it is normal that those people when they have economic emergencies do not hesitate to sell a fraction of BTC.

When we trade there are many ways to look for money, the main one, the one that many are governed by is looking for Dollars or Euros, either in USD, USDT, among others, and other traders seek to accumulate as many satoshis as possible (When it comes to BTC) others with alts, but very few believe that BTC will always grow, because few understand the stages of the market, among which are the accumulation and Distribution stage.

When people see that BTC fell, many say that it was a bubble, it will not rebound, even people of great repute, such as Schiff, and other people who are a role model like Warren Buffet, who do not believe in BTC or cryptocurrencies. , and if cryptocurrencies allow you to pay, resolve and make any purchase, why not use it? you can use half of what you have in crypto and the other half is put into "Hodl" mode and you will never lose.

   I think it's better to think that Bitcoins is goes up ang goes down or we could say a Volatile we can not expect the value of Bitcoins but this Bitcoins consistent increase the price I think more user will likely to trade or invest but don't be confidence so much cause there's a sudden down of the price.

Under the words "use bitcoin" probably the word "sell" was meant. I think that not everyone is ready to hold and wait for infinite price growth. Everyone has their own level, when they are ready to sell, everyone has their own needs, everyone has their own believes. Dont forget FOMO also (but that was perhaps mentioned numerous times already).

I do not think that we should care about all those other elder generation saying bad stuff about crypto because it makes no sense to me at all, but at the end of the day it is us who are involved in crypto that makes decisions and decide on what bitcoins direction will be like.

I do not believe that warren buffet has any bitcoins, but even if he does, he doesn't care about it and it is a tiny sliver of what he has total, so that means that he is not deciding factor on bitcoin all by himself, but when he says something bad about it, and everyone else gets scared about it and sell their bitcoins because of it? Then dude didn't spend a single dime to drop the price by just influencing others. That's the type of thing that we should be avoiding, Elon Musk did the same thing for both making it go up and also making it go down, we should not make trading decisions based on others peoples words.

The market isn't always up, and when it's consistent on a specific value, using it as an asset for the transaction won't affect you much if and only if you've bought back at the same price. The OP makes sense, I understand the point, and I'm wondering why I'm still using my BTC for other things if it'll just go up. Taking profit, on the other hand, should explain why others continue to sell and use bitcoin for transactions, we have different approach on crypto, can't blame them if they're happy and satisfied on what they're doing.

This raises the question why anyone would needlessly introduce middlemen to a transaction.  In this case, bitcoin is an unnecessary middleman.  If you're buying bitcoin to immediately spend it, why not just conduct the transaction in fiat?  There are very few situations where this makes sense, but a couple I can think of are cross border transactions or speed over electronic transfers, which are probably slower except in the case of wires.

But aren't people already spending bitcoin? The problem is that there aren't many shops accepting it as payment, but if they were, bitcoin would be much more used as currency than it currently is. People would treat bitcoin the same way they treat fiat: spend the necessary in their daily life and save what is possible for the future. The only difference is that bitcoin is actually profitable to save when compared to fiat, that isn't profitable at all due to corrosive inflation. If it doesn't make sense for you now, once people start receiving their wages in btc I believe it will...

People do have this kind of mindset specially when you are just new into this market where you do expect that price do continue to rise up without minding about the reality of this market which is really wild when it comes to volatility.

We do have different taking or views  towards bitcoin and some of them would really be saving up bitcoin rather than on using it up or making active conversions.

Its a wrong mindset on believing that it would always go up but if you don't really mind much about on short term then holding isn't always a bad idea.

Humanity is characterized by a herd instinct, so still the majority listened and will listen to the opinion of the leaders of public opinion and nothing can be done about it ;) Therefore, you can say as much as you like that the opinion of some of these leaders is not important and decisions should be made by people who are competent in this matter, but the fact remains that the absolute majority of investors are by no means absolute gurus in this matter, but still the market movement depends on this majority. Therefore, the media component of the question is also important, and it is desirable that different generations have a positive attitude to bitcoin and it is worth making efforts to explain the positive features of bitcoin to the older generation.

I think the second option is correct. The volatility will be less and the rate will be more stable. It makes sense.

I can tell some are not ever willing to sell part of their bitcoin holdings but life at times gives smackdown unexpectedly.. and bitcoin comes as last and only rescue plan to help put themselves' back on the track.

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As a holder of BTC, one will be faced with some of the properties of a currency.  If it's like you said why not invest further, it doesn't fall into the category of three fuction of money.  In addition to investment, currency serves as a means of speculation and currency as a means of transaction and the last is a store of value.  So, it's a bit less fitting if we leave it without any tactics.

It's easy, they can and they want to. Also, it's not really our business why they want to use it to buy stuff, we have our own decisions, probably it's a ppet peeve for you but I don't exactly think it's not a bother plus they make the economy of bitcoin healthier as bitcoin gets passed around and circulating.

Doesnt really matter much since its our money and we do have that full control and decision neither we do spend it actively or would really save or store it up for some future goals
that you do have in mind.It is true that majority of us do really expect for the price to go up which i cant really blame off since if we do really go back or trying to check out
its history then it could really give out that kind of opportunity or chances for you to make profits on just simply holding even though it isnt guaranteed but at least
we do know that chance is something there.

Considering that not many people are still even aware of the LN, let alone crypto, we're still long way to go before we manage to have that "dreamt adoption" that everybody is discussing. Here in my country, there are few people nearby my area that just use custodial wallets to allow p2p transaction. It isn't the full adoption yet because it uses our PHP currency and it isn't purely Bitcoin.

Of course, when it comes to risk, I think everyone who wants to invest or trade in cryptocurrencies has thought of this,
sometimes our assets have to be sold and used as you say,
what is clear here is full of risk but if we can get profits up to many times too

I don't quite get your question, but do you mean that people will hold their coins instead of selling them if Bitcoin is going to up anyways in future and they will be in loss if they spend now, right?

Then that's the case with almost other currencies, okay, may not be with fiat because of inflation, but how about gold and silver?

Let's say, you have gold in your locker, and you know in future it will grow in value surely as it's a very rare metal and precious, but you will still sell it. Why? Because you have to meet your needs. Will you not eat food or drink water for 7 days just for saving more money? No right? That's why even if we assume that, Bitcoin in the long run will go up, still if we use it as currency, we will be willing to spend it for our needs because needs is what we need, we can't eat bitcoins, or gold, we have survival instincts which is quenched by only food and water!

The status of the Bitcoin market price is not determined by the level of demand and supply, not the number of active users.

No, and technically about 75% of all crypto traders quit at some point due to losses, and what impacts the price of the Bitcoin market it be a subject of volatility and speculation itself.

People do end up not selling their gold for a long time, I have seen people leaving gold to their child when they die, gold is not something you "spend". Bitcoin is like fiat in the sense that you can spend it, you can pay bitcoin to someone and get something in return, that is the beauty of bitcoin, but at the same time you could also keep it as well, you do not have to end up spending it neither because it is going to make a lot of money to you.

However I agree that nobody should fear spending bitcoin, you bought that bitcoin with money, you can do the same, so you spend $100 on bitcoin? Well, go ahead and buy $100 worth same day and you will be fine, or do it before you send it. That way you can both still have the same amount if you want to and also you could be spending it without a problem as well. I just feel like that is the type of thing we should all do.

Well that should be --but people see that bitcoin is good for storing value because they know that will get profit on it that spending regularly. But there are some people who are regularly spending their bitcoin, only a few of them while the largest percentage is hoarding bitcoin to hunt profit. You can see on mempool that there are fewer transactions on bitcoin, so perhaps people are preferred to hold than use like money. However, we can't blame them because that is normal in crypto that we should understand. Spending or keeping it to store value is not important, you help the crypto space in a different ways.

Bitcoin used by many people around the world has all different purpose. Some are using for investment and holding is the main goal and some are spending bitcoin because they are making day trading and the expense of profit will be converted cash for the daily life needs. There are people also buying bitcoins for the ease and hustle free online payment transaction because crypto currency always makes life easy.

First point is Bitcoin is cryptoCURRENCY = meaning must be use in exchange to something for this to have distinguish value.

Second point is Bitcoin has been wrong anticipated by people in which going to be Store of value.

Third point is Bitcoin is very well trust(though also manipulated) in which the main reason why people seems to be waiting for long term.

if bitcoin mate it adopted worldwide , then this is much valuable to spend things that i believe the main thing why people keeps holding instead of spending .

On the first point, it may have been the intention but it's certainly not of much practical use as a currency.  A currency that can't keep a steady value isn't much of a currency at all.  Store of value is still being proved out.  There hasn't been enough time to determine if bitcoin will prove a decent historical store of value.

First of all, Bitcoin price doesn't always go up as we all know. It starts going up generally when there is a good rally or a bull run. Let's say that the price is always going up. In that case, there are still two types of people whose usage purposes are totally different. Or there are three types of people. Some people only like to trade their Bitcoin in exchanges or HODL their coins. Some people like to use Bitcoin only when they decide to buy something. And some other people like to do these things both at the same time.

You are right indeed the price of BTC is unstable and payment becomes very difficult , The second problem is when we buy an item like a loaf of bread , Or an object worth 10$ want to pay with the price . Small value of BTC is really difficult because BTC transactions have to pay some fees for the transaction ie you buy $ 10 will turn into $ 15 or more, and for stable money, you can pay immediately and pay with amount of small value.

The argument of the OP is flawed, lets give an example, new cars are expensive however as they age they become cheaper, so why people buy new cars despite being able to get cheaper ones if they buy used? And the answer is simple because they want to, spending bitcoin may not seem to make sense to some but if you need something and you have bitcoin then you spend it, it is as simple as that and yet for some this simple concept seems too hard for them to understand.

Not really that hard to understand if you really wanted to learn up but if you do make your mindset or wouldnt open into something new then you wont really be that interested. Purchasing new cars is something different
when you are totally trying to compare it on investment because we do know on what are their main differences when it comes to reasoning in mind on why they do decide neither they would deal with it or would simply
skip or pass.It is depending on several factors and thats why we cant really make out conclusions on why it do happen. People would always expect for bitcoin to go up because they had seen out its history
and presuming on doing the same thing is more likely.

The premise is “why use bitcoin if it is always expected to go up.” What it actually does is not relevant, so you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the question. And it is unquestionable that among unsophisticated investors (i.e., retail investors) that bitcoin can only go up. That’s why every time there’s a dip, the mantra on these boards is you have to buy every dip.  The subtext of that is any dips are only temporary and the bull case will reestablish soon.

Bitcoin needs to follow the financial markets principles which govern the law of supply and demand which illustrate The higher the price the lower the quantities demanded while the lower the price, the higher the quantities demanded vice versa. When the price of a coin is lower, more investors tend to buy more which will trigger the price to go up. When the price is up or at the peek, more investors tend to sell to their share of the coin, making  the price if the coin to fall massively.

This price is behind the pump and dump of a coin. The market can not just keep going up continually without having a breath to relax before looking for a sure direction to heed to.

That's known but in the long term view, it's really expected to go up.

We're mostly all of those types, when the price is good, we're about to take profits and use it to buy something that we want to. But it all ends up to the one category or type, that most of us who have bitcoin, we're all holders. We are all believing that there's a greater future that waits for bitcoin and we're all sharing the same faith that the price will eventually increase to the price that we are expecting to see. Like with most of the predictions today, high price is literally becoming normal for someone's expectation if it's bitcoin.

As far as I know those people who owned a gold are possibly rich man or have other resources in their life so they hold their gold for a long time and giving it as inheritance to their children. What I mean is, everyone is entitled to do what do they wanted to do with their assets but as far as i'm concern if a person has no other resources rather than the profit that he gets from his bitcoin investments then there's no point of holding his coin for a long term investments. Bitcoin were so volatile and we can't tell when it will go up and go down, we do believe that bitcoin has a great future ahead but it's true we can't eat bitcoin instead we can use it to buy food so spend it wisely.

It depends on people's goals about how they want to use Bitcoin actually. People who choose to only trade wouldn't like to sell and use their Bitcoin generally. But people who like to trade and use Bitcoin at the same time wouldn't think of not using Bitcoin as its price is going up. Because Bitcoin is not only for trading for them. Bitcoin gives someone the freedom of using it in different ways anonymously. Maybe its price is going up but people should use it somewhere also to help Bitcoin adoption.

All holders have their own way of using bitcoin and it's their right, the most important thing is to use it wisely and also not to spend it just like that because the future of bitcoin will be brighter like the last 10 years which happened a few months ago and that is real evidence.
I personally prefer to keep it because the price is guaranteed to continue to rise in the long term and besides that I will use it as a reserve fund, and when I need it I will sell it as needed and the rest I save back.
and when there is a decline, I will buy to cover my bitcoins used for needs and grow them.

It's going up and down, but overall it's going up more than it goes down, so we have new records every now and then! It's very attractive for people who like to speculate and earn from this volatility... perfectly understandable!

I think the Bitcoin price will stop rising eventually when it conquers the world! We see that more and more people and all sorts of businesses are joining, take a look at where Bitcoin was 10 years ago and follow the line to now... it was nowhere to be found, now the Bitcoin market is almost at a trillion dollars! And do you think it will stop there? I think not, there are a lot more things that Bitcoin can do on a global stage!

The fact that bitcoin is currently used more for short-term trading maybe daily or weekly, this makes the value of bitcoin always fluctuate so that it gives us the opportunity to buy or sell anytime if we get a profit, this is unique and makes anyone interested in owning bitcoin.

Up until now, extravagant spending has dropped dramatically because bitcoin has taught us a lesson in awareness and value, Bitcoin is not easily created and would be sorry to waste without meaning, the scope of use is now just encapsulating in making bitcoin the largest virtual bank as well as the best investment option these are two processes that are widely applied and converted back and forth to create a lot of benefits. Such direction is really necessary when individuals with financial shortage cannot raise the value of bitcoin while large funds and whales are short of bitcoin to pump, the use of which is a cooperation between two parties.

It is a choice depending on how many way you have at your disposal to spend those coins. In most countries till date, bitcoin is not yet something that is legally tradeable without problems. If you live in a country like that where bitcoin is a grey area, you are more likely to spend it on gambling and trading.

With the increase in countries becoming more lenient towards spending crypto to merchants, there will be an increase in market volatility. These questions currently come up because we are still in baby phases of crypto adoption and it really is starting off now.

Without methods to spend your coins, you are more likely to save them. Simple logic here.

The price of Bitcoin is determined by people's needs. Daily price fluctuations are due to someone buying and selling Bitcoin. The high volatility of Bitcoin indicates that the daily trading volume of Bitcoin is also very large.
The purpose of our investment in Bitcoin is to profit from it, and the profit is to satisfy our daily lives and improve our quality of life, so why not use Bitcoin after we invest? Investment is not just to make profit after accumulation, but to make this investment meaningful.

This goes back to everyone because indeed not everyone uses bitcoin in the same way because here even though the scope of crypto, including bitcoin, is still very small compared to the human population, even with the current number, the goals of people in adopting bitcoin are definitely different.
some are intended for long-term investment, some are used for daily trading and it's not even impossible there are people who keep their money here but they don't understand what they are going to do.
so? why is it always expected to go up? because everything is mainly related to financial matters, surely everyone will target like that, the goal is none other than to get the maximum profit.
and indeed there may be some people say I am naive but I am here for that (profit)

This question of yours I feel you can answer this question on your own, because any investor wants to profit and profit from the increase in bitcoin value, this goes to every investor. private. investors expect bitcoin price to rise, do you think i'm right?

The price isn't a function of need at all, but overall supply and demand at any given time.  Since bitcoin isn't actually needed for anything in daily life though and the only people buying it are speculating on price, demand is a function of speculation more than anything else.  Bitcoin is purchased exclusively by people who have money they can spend on speculating the price will go up, since obviously people who can't afford it won't be able to.

Why do people still hold dollars if they believe it will lose value constantly? That is what dollar is (and all other fiats), because of inflation the value of dollar will ALWAYS be lower and lower in the long run. Then why do people still keep holding dollars in their bank accounts, shouldn't they spend it as soon as they get it so they do not lose value?

People still do hold it on savings accounts and all that right? Because that is how people invest, well at least some people do. Plus bitcoin is a currency as well, you may spend it, but you may also earn it as well, if you want to survive then you gotta pay for bills or food or whatever and that means you HAVE TO spend, not just because you want to, but because you have to.

Each person has different living conditions/economic conditions, and of course this has something to do with their living conditions, some are after it for profit in investing, trading, and some are making it a steady income which of course is done with certain efforts. I think the demand will indeed increase, and Bitcoin price is indeed more likely to increase, but not everyone is only focused on investing their money in long-term profits in Bitcoin, on the other hand... Bitcoin has become a means of payment, I think this does continue to fluctuate because of the large number of the different activities carried out within the Bitcoin sphere itself.

I'd like to answer your question about why people hold their dollars in spite of inflation. The short answer is the dollar is the most liquid asset there is. If there is an emergency, people can spend their money without any fuss or muss. No one will accept your FAANG stocks or your real estate if there is a panic. They are illiquid and are subject to depreciation during a major collapse and uncertainty. The dollar is the answer, everyone will accept it because it is liquid, highly divisible, easily transportable. The only major problem with fiat currency is that it doesn't retain its value for long. That is why people are hoarding gold, however, gold is poorly divisible, hardly transportable, and easy to confiscate, nobody wants to run around with bars of gold. Bitcoin is another option, it retains value over a long-term horizon and is easy to carry, however, it is likely illiquid during an emergency situation. Conclusively, there is no perfect solution, you should try to make use of all three options to alleviate the uncertainty that the future brings.

Bitcoin is purely based on its demand and supply. If you see the price increases, its because there are more of its consumers or users are using it for investment or for payment purposes. And i don't think we will live our entire life investing the whole time. People will definitely end up using their bitcoins either just to enjoy the profits or use it for some uncontrolled emergency events. Its a matter of choice anyways. And bitcoin will definitely not become stabilized because its nature will always be highly volatile.

If everyone holds Bitcoin and does not use it, the volatility of Bitcoin will decrease and its price will stabilize.

Bitcoin is a kind of currency. Using Bitcoin to pay can increase its liquidity, which is conducive to the wide spread of Bitcoin and the enhancement of people's awareness of it.

I think the best thing about bitcoin is that it can be used to pay, with functions like fiat, bitcoin will last for a long time, maybe most people currently only use it for trading and long-term hold, this is what makes bitcoin too volatile because demand and stock can skyrocketed unexpectedly.

The price of Bitcoin is unstable. If all investors choose to hold for a long time because of future price increases, its utilization rate and liquidity will weaken, and the corresponding price may also show a downward trend.

Although long-term investment in bitcoin will make a lot of profits, people will sell bitcoin in exchange for legal currency when they need other expenses.

precisely because the price of bitcoin is very volatile, bitcoin will not be able to replace fiat money as a legal tender. I think the best thing for bitcoin is that it is recognized by the whole world as a safe investment tool.

The price of Bitcoin will be determined by demand and users. Due to the volatility of Bitcoin prices, many investors will sell when the price is high to get a profit, and then buy and hold when the price is low to get more profit.

Bitcoin has a scarcity while the usage environment of Bitcoin increases. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has proven to be valuable moving according to the 'Stock to flow' model so people always believe that Bitcoin will increase in price. Even so, the value of anything is
comes from the need to buy and sell, so the market will determine the value of Bitcoin.

A lot of people expect the price of bitcoin to go up because it is driven by demand and supply. And since it is still a new thing, there are lots of people who are yet to join the community, and with time we will get to see a lot of them join the community and invest their money. So since the market is driven by demand and supply, you’re going to see an increase at anytime. That’s why if you check the market chart, the market has been growing from year to year.

But then, everyone has a purpose as to why they are making use of bitcoin, there are people who are using it as a payment method and there are those who prefers it as an investment, just do what works for you.

Why do we invest in bitcoin? Yes, because we want to get profit to continue our life, to survive, pay bills, buy food, shop etc. The value of bitcoin fluctuates due to buying and selling transactions. it will go down if more people are selling and the price will go up if more people are buying . So I think you need to understand exactly what your goal is to enter in bitcoin for what.

I think this problem exists because there are still fiat currencies that can be used as an alternative to Bitcoin. In fact, as far as I know, Bitcoin has incomparable advantages in cross-border or large-scale transactions. For example, if you need to pay 1 million US dollars for your imported goods, you can choose to use bitcoin to pay at this time, and then buy US dollars into bitcoins will save time and cost of handling fees.

If the price would always appreciate, how would that stop you from making use of Bitcoin? That the price is appreciating doesn’t mean that you can’t be able to make use of it, and moreover that would be to your own advantage if you are to adopt it earlier and start making use of it, because as the price increases you are still the one that is going to beginning from it.

I think that in future when the price gets to a certain extent it might stop increasing that much and become a bit more stable than it is now. So I do not think that this is an issue at all, Bitcoin is still new so it is going to be volatile for now, until the time comes for it to become stable and that is going to be the time when there are lots of people who are making use of it.

I think the reason why people advocate the widespread adoption of BTC or blockchain technology is due to its nature which is a decentralized system, without any 3rd party involved. However, If people wish to use it as a currency in a real-world setup, then its price needs to stabilize just like what you've said and fluctuations of price would be problematic. For me, it's still best to consider it as a speculative asset rather than a currency, if your primary concern is its price

Nothing would stop you from using it, that's not the question.  The question is if you think bitcoin is always going to go up, why would you ever spend it?  Because obviously if you think it only goes up, spending it brings the opportunity cost of losing future gains.

Agreed, and this is the point at which people will stop selling it because the price is rising. That is nonsense, and we could say that there will be no trading because there will be no buying and selling because there will be no movements, only selling and buying. The market will not go through a cycle. Also, if the price continues to rise, the day will come when no one can afford to buy a bitcoin because the price is so high, unlike now.