Title: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 02, 2021, 01:50:26 PM n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig https://i.postimg.cc/QMNkXyjh/n0nce-stamps-0.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/bJyt0DZP/n0nce-stamps-1.jpg Very nicely readable 6mm letters (tape holds washer in place) | Prototypes & final version. Improved letter spacing & tolerances. https://i.postimg.cc/8JGddw9V/n0nce-stamp.gif (https://i.postimg.cc/76GBkWNb/n0nce-stamp.gif) This is pretty much how it works Backup pure material cost: 4€ Requirements: stamps ~20€, jig ~10€ Go big or go home! 30x10.5mm washers! 6mm tall letters Edit: Any size of washer and stamp is now possible using the openSCAD file I provide for free below. Enjoy! The idea is inspired from econoalchemist's blog post Securing a Bitcoin seed phrase in stainless-steel washers. (https://www.econoalchemist.com/post/backup) and it's very great:
Backstory: After reading the aforementioned blog post, I went to download the file for the jig from blockmic. It can be found in their Thingiverse (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4590734) and they wrote a very good article about it. (https://blockmit.com/guias/hazlo-tu-mismo/fabrica-tu-billetera-fria-con-arandelas/) But: For one, I wanted to use larger washers. In fact, I think I got the largest that I could find in the first hardware store I walked into. A reason for this is that larger washers are usually also thicker and thus more durable, and the other reason is simply because the stamps I already had were too large for such small washers. I have 6mm high letters and the stamps are 9x9mm in size. So I did the natural thing: create a new 3D design from scratch, which is completely parametrized. This allows me to adapt it for anyone with different sized washers and / or stamps! :) 0:) Then did a few iterations, as shown here, and now it's ready to rock! It's really the most pleasent stamping experience (only did plates without any jig so far), since the stamp is held in place very well, while still being able to slide and of course it's perfectly square. The inner and outer parts are also designed such that there is not much friction when assembling them, but there is no wobble when stamping. So you can actually go back and re-stamp a letter if it didn't come out perfect for example! PSA: I can achieve much better print quality than what you see in the images, but I am finishing up some old rolls which have taken a lot of humidity so the results don't look as good. Also, I used more perimeters than CryptoCloaks (https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e65a7a_75c101c71dfa4391a2da5814082e0a25~mv2.jpg) since it makes things more sturdy. Finally, the darker colour you use, the more print lines show (especially when photographed) ;D An idea to achieve tamper evidence and protection (though we had the discussion if it's even a good idea or not): weld on the nut. Protection: Not everyone just has an angle grinder. Evidence: Someone would need to weld it back on which is visible, or redo the backup identically, thus needing a welder AND a 3D printer and all the same supplies that you used. Otherwise the letter size would be different for example. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 02, 2021, 04:54:10 PM Works in Progress:
How to get? If I gave the file it could give you headache since I pieced it together quickly and tolerances are quite important when printing it out.. :D But if you're experienced in modifying designs, printing them or are overseas etc. just send me a DM! Get the fresh clean source code below and print it yourself or if interested, I can print for you and ship it to a PO box or something. For best privacy, buying or borrowing a cost-effective printer would be recommended. [NEW!!] OpenSCAD design finalized! Paste this following code into OpenSCAD (https://openscad.org/) (free, open source) and set the parameters to whatever fits your washers and stamps. It's important to measure the stamp's outside size, not the letter height which is usually given on the product page. Then hit F5 and F6 to preview and render the two models. Finally, export the STL file and print it out. Code: // n0nce's Steel Washer backup jig A note on material choice: When you are talking about extreme weather conditions, I don't know if you know this but 304 stainless steel can easily be corrupted if exposed to salt water, so if you are living in area near sea water I would opt out for better 316 stainless steel. I am not sure if Jameson Lopp did any tests with salt water, but I believe that is much more realistic threat for some parts of the world compared to acid exposure. Not all stainless steel is made the same, there are different types and grades, so while 316 SS is better for salt water it does have slightly lower melting point compared to 304 SS: Grade 304 melting points: 1400-1450°C (2552-2642°F) Grade 316 melting points: 1375-1400°C (2507-2552°F) Grade 430 melting points: 1425-1510°C (2597-2750°F) Grade 434 melting points: 1426-1510°C (2600-2750°F) Grade 410 melting points: 1480-1530°C (2696-2786°F) Grade 420 melting points: 1450-1510°C (2642-2750°F) Pick 304 if you want high temperature resistance, or pick 316 if you want high corrosion resistance. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on October 02, 2021, 07:42:27 PM This is very cool. Great project!
Remember to also stamp on the position number of each word in your seed phrase. The last thing you want is to drop the whole thing when trying to recover your seed phrase and end up with 24 washers on the floor in a random order, which will be impossible to brute force. In terms of welding the nut on and then cutting it off again - what is the risk that you damage your back up by doing this? I suppose you could always use a longer bolt with some extra washers, so they are still tight and can not be read while the device is sealed, but giving you some dead space between where you are welding/cutting and the washers containing your words. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 02, 2021, 07:50:13 PM This is very cool. Great project! Thanks for your feedback!Remember to also stamp on the position number of each word in your seed phrase. The last thing you want is to drop the whole thing when trying to recover your seed phrase and end up with 24 washers on the floor in a random order, which will be impossible to brute force. In terms of welding the nut on and then cutting it off again - what is the risk that you damage your back up by doing this? I suppose you could always use a longer bolt with some extra washers, so they are still tight and can not be read while the device is sealed, but giving you some dead space between where you are welding/cutting and the washers containing your words. Yes, word index is part of the blockmic design and I incorporated it as well (see the 2 notches above the 8 notches - those are for the index) :) However I later noticed I should have done a stamp with such a number on it, to display how it will look ;D I will do it tomorrow if I remember :) Dead space for angle grinding sounds good to me! Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on October 02, 2021, 08:35:21 PM (tape holds washer in place) Quote from: Google translated from Spanish https://blockmit.com/guias/hazlo-tu-mismo/fabrica-tu-billetera-fria-con-arandelas/ Before starting the hammering, the mold that I have created has a small defect that I have not really been able to correct without adding anything external. And it is that when hammering the first character and extracting the moving part to do it in the second, the washer moves and the final result is quite bad. To fix this I use a little electrical tape, making the result look good by not moving the washer during the whole process. Have you tried stamping it without any tape? I'm curious to know how it moves? Does it turn or it comes out slightly when you remove the moving part?- Depending on the answer, I could help in finding a solution for each, but it would probably require modifying almost everything [if you want, I can provide the STL file on Monday (assuming that you still have some old filaments to spare)]. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 02, 2021, 09:01:46 PM (tape holds washer in place) Quote from: Google translated from Spanish https://blockmit.com/guias/hazlo-tu-mismo/fabrica-tu-billetera-fria-con-arandelas/ Before starting the hammering, the mold that I have created has a small defect that I have not really been able to correct without adding anything external. And it is that when hammering the first character and extracting the moving part to do it in the second, the washer moves and the final result is quite bad. To fix this I use a little electrical tape, making the result look good by not moving the washer during the whole process. Have you tried stamping it without any tape? I'm curious to know how it moves? Does it turn or it comes out slightly when you remove the moving part?- Depending on the answer, I could help in finding a solution for each, but it would probably require modifying almost everything [if you want, I can provide the STL file on Monday (assuming that you still have some old filaments to spare)]. So in theory, it would work without tape, as long as you don't need to punch a letter twice often. Because sometimes it rotates just a slight bit. But it's really not a big issue in my opinion with the tape; quite easy with normal packing tape or wide transparent tape :) I'd be glad to hear any recommendation / improvement suggestions though! I was already thinking of modifying the file so that you can screw the jig into a piece of metal beam, but then it would be tedious to get the washer out and to replace the tape when needed. I don't really see another way to hold a round object in place other than friction to be honest. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on October 03, 2021, 05:34:45 AM Because sometimes it rotates just a slight bit. You're right... I wanted to tackle that issue by using "square washers (https://stampingblanks.com/Washers/1-1-4-Square-Washer-Blank.html)" instead [I do know it's probably not worth the trouble to modify everything in order to integrate a different shape into the design, but it'll solve that problem completely].But it's really not a big issue in my opinion with the tape; quite easy with normal packing tape or wide transparent tape :) I'd be glad to hear any recommendation / improvement suggestions though! ~Snipped~ I don't really see another way to hold a round object in place other than friction to be honest. Note: I'm not vouching for the website that I've included as an example. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on October 03, 2021, 07:13:51 AM I don't really see another way to hold a round object in place other than friction to be honest. It would be a significant amount of additional work for very marginal gains, but you could cut a small wedge out of each washer and modify your jig design so there is a small piece which sticks out in to the wedge cut-out to hold the washer in place. Almost certainly not worth the time, though. Your other option would be to buy square or other non-round washers, but again, you would obviously need to redesign your whole jig.It sounds like your set up works fine with tape though. If you really mess up a washer by trying to punch it twice and being out of alignment, then you can just make a new one - it's not like you've messed up the entire back up as you might have done with a single steel plate. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 03, 2021, 12:17:16 PM I wanted to tackle that issue by using "square washers (https://stampingblanks.com/Washers/1-1-4-Square-Washer-Blank.html)" instead [I do know it's probably not worth the trouble to modify everything in order to integrate a different shape into the design, but it'll solve that problem completely]. I didn't know these existed, but it seems an option as well! In general the cool thing about these products is that the price / weight of stainless steel is so so cheap. I don't think they would stay on a screw as nicely as round washers, but it would be doable. When I'll find time to sit at the CAD again, I might give it a shot, though I don't have such washers here to try / experiment with.Note: I'm not vouching for the website that I've included as an example. I don't really see another way to hold a round object in place other than friction to be honest. It would be a significant amount of additional work for very marginal gains, but you could cut a small wedge out of each washer and modify your jig design so there is a small piece which sticks out in to the wedge cut-out to hold the washer in place. Almost certainly not worth the time, though. Your other option would be to buy square or other non-round washers, but again, you would obviously need to redesign your whole jig.It sounds like your set up works fine with tape though. If you really mess up a washer by trying to punch it twice and being out of alignment, then you can just make a new one - it's not like you've messed up the entire back up as you might have done with a single steel plate. I'm not even sure how the suggestion of using some tape is such a big concern to be honest ;D For me, after reading the BlockMit article, it was a no-brainer to just keep that concept since it seemed so easy and quick to do anyway. As you said, it's great that each word has its own washer with costs just a few pennies, so even if a letter comes crooked due to omitting tape, just take another washer. I have to say; I never had such a good looking steel backup.. I know, you can create a jig for a steel plate backup as well, but if you still mess up, you will need a new $20 plate. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on October 03, 2021, 06:02:31 PM An idea to achieve tamper evidence and protection (though we had the discussion if it's even a good idea or not): weld on the nut. What about rust? I know that's usually not a problem with washers I've had laying around forever, but if it holds crucial information, I wouldn't mind oiling them before bolting them together. Especially since this won't be in a normal drawer but probably somewhere well hidden.Quote Protection: Not everyone just has an angle grinder. I can just imagine myself getting my angle grinder to buy something :DI don't really see another way to hold a round object in place other than friction to be honest. Have you considered a magnet? They're available in many sizes and shapes on AliExpress and can probably fit somewhere inside the 3D design. Unless you're going for stainless steel washers, but I assume those are too hard to stamp.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on October 03, 2021, 07:09:42 PM I prefer to customise it for you and sell you a print or printable file :) Cool project and I think I saw similar thing recently when I wrote about metal seed backups.I see you written nice Bitcoin Talk, so do you have your own stamping tools and letters or you borrowed it? What about rust? I know that's usually not a problem with washers I've had laying around forever, but if it holds crucial information, I wouldn't mind oiling them before bolting them together. Especially since this won't be in a normal drawer but probably somewhere well hidden. They are stainless steel washers, rostfrei, meaning free from rust, but it is possible to develop some rust during long periods of time, under special conditions or if weaker alloy is used.I think that painting would be a better protection solution than oiling them. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 03, 2021, 10:44:36 PM An idea to achieve tamper evidence and protection (though we had the discussion if it's even a good idea or not): weld on the nut. What about rust? I know that's usually not a problem with washers I've had laying around forever, but if it holds crucial information, I wouldn't mind oiling them before bolting them together. Especially since this won't be in a normal drawer but probably somewhere well hidden.Quote Protection: Not everyone just has an angle grinder. I can just imagine myself getting my angle grinder to buy something :DI don't really see another way to hold a round object in place other than friction to be honest. Have you considered a magnet? They're available in many sizes and shapes on AliExpress and can probably fit somewhere inside the 3D design. Unless you're going for stainless steel washers, but I assume those are too hard to stamp.However, the washer has to be held either from the top or the bottom (side is too shallow I think). From the bottom is tricky because then you'd be hammering onto the magnet, not sure if they're made to withstand that. From the top won't work, because the top is not covered by the 'outside' part of the jig, instead by the (removable) inside. We need a way to stick the washer to the outside part instead. I have one idea which would require re-seating the washer for applying the numbers though, since I'd put a magnet in that location roughly. So you would need to do the number first, rotate the washer by 180 degrees and then do the words. https://i.postimg.cc/8kMDMdfQ/50-Pcs-4x2mm-Runde-Form-Rare-Earth-Neodym-Super-Starke-Magnetische-Nd-Fe-B-Magnet-K-hlschrank-Handwerk.jpg I prefer to customise it for you and sell you a print or printable file :) Cool project and I think I saw similar thing recently when I wrote about metal seed backups.I see you written nice Bitcoin Talk, so do you have your own stamping tools and letters or you borrowed it? The tools I used were 2 hammers and normal 6mm high letter stamps! I got them when I made my first steel backup for around 30€ with all numbers and letters. 2 hammers? I don't have an anvil, but a washer is so small it can fit on the side of a larger hammer. This way you don't need to hit them as hard as when using a wooden workbench as support, since that absorbs a ton of energy. My stamps are from 'Gravurem': https://www.heidenpeter.de/en/products/handschlagstempelsaetze/gravurems-standard/ At least in the 6mm variant, the tip is a bit taller than the bit's actual size, so I created the jig with this in mind. So the stamp is inserted into the inner circle 'from below'. But in case your stamps are equal sized from top to bottom, I will adapt the file to reflect that geometry. Edit: Ordered some magnets, will try something that would require no tape, once they arrive :) Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 20, 2021, 10:15:54 AM Small update: After doing a few backups, unfortunately it is indeed pretty tedious to use tape, since it has to be replaced frequently. By the washer being hammered into the underlying metal support, it damages the tape around its perimeter and it's hard to remove & reuse it without ripping.
5mm diameter neodymium magnets however don't hold the washer in place too well; I will maybe need stronger / larger ones to get a satisfying result. Will update when I got something new; maybe simply stronger tape would help as well (ran out of electrical tape). I suspect the bad performance of the magnets is due to low ferrite content in the metal, so especially if you find very 'good' stainless steel, magnets won't work. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on October 20, 2021, 10:39:36 AM How about a more classic way to hold the washer in place: a screw :)
Drill a hole from the side, taper inner thread, put a screw in it. One pointy screw at the right place should keep it in place: https://cdn.hornbach.nl/data/shop/D04/001/780/499/017/53/DV_8_5828317_01_4c_NL_20160607184523.jpg Even better if you can tighten it by hand: https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/205256/files/148219124/image.jpg Disclaimer: I have no idea how strong 3D-printed plastic is. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on October 20, 2021, 12:27:41 PM unfortunately it is indeed pretty tedious to use tape, since it has to be replaced frequently. How about a more classic way to hold the washer in place: a screw :) LoyceV's comment reminded me of something that would defeat the purpose of printing the jig part: Clamps [it'd require covering 1/3rd of the washers]
Out of curiosity, do you have a CNC machine [apart from the 3D printer]? - If you do, then just use its clamps. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 20, 2021, 02:53:27 PM How about a more classic way to hold the washer in place: a screw :) You sir, are a genius! ;D To be continued... ;)Drill a hole from the side, taper inner thread, put a screw in it. Disclaimer: I have no idea how strong 3D-printed plastic is. You can screw directly into a slightly undersized hold and it holds very well, it's also possible to insert heat-fitted inserts. Both are about equally as strong last I checked :)unfortunately it is indeed pretty tedious to use tape, since it has to be replaced frequently. How about a more classic way to hold the washer in place: a screw :) LoyceV's comment reminded me of something that would defeat the purpose of printing the jig part: Clamps [it'd require covering 1/3rd of the washers]Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on October 21, 2021, 08:11:21 AM I don't think the main purpose of the jig is to hold the washer in place. Otherwise, of course a clamp would do a good job easily. I forgot to add "to an extent" when I said it'd defeat the purpose of printing it [my bad].since jig holds the bit perfectly perpendicular and you can re-stamp in the exact same location. You have a point but you can still get good results without the jig [or a tool bit boring bar and a holder], provided that you don't have a hand & arm tremor and as for the re-stamping part [CMIIW], I don't think there's a need for one if you hit it three to four times with enough force [in quick succession].Secondly, the jig helps you align the rotation and spacing between letters. So no letter ends up tilted to one side or way too close to another. Since the majority of the letter stamps, come with right-angled [or squarish] shafts, then with a proper technique you can still get almost perfect results in round shape washers...
There's no doubt that the "Blockmit jig" is a great product, but you can still achieve good results without having one! Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on October 22, 2021, 01:54:17 PM I don't think the main purpose of the jig is to hold the washer in place. Otherwise, of course a clamp would do a good job easily. I forgot to add "to an extent" when I said it'd defeat the purpose of printing it [my bad].since jig holds the bit perfectly perpendicular and you can re-stamp in the exact same location. You have a point but you can still get good results without the jig [or a tool bit boring bar and a holder], provided that you don't have a hand & arm tremor and as for the re-stamping part [CMIIW], I don't think there's a need for one if you hit it three to four times with enough force [in quick succession].Secondly, the jig helps you align the rotation and spacing between letters. So no letter ends up tilted to one side or way too close to another. Since the majority of the letter stamps, come with right-angled [or squarish] shafts, then with a proper technique you can still get almost perfect results in round shape washers...There's no doubt that the "Blockmit jig" is a great product, but you can still achieve good results without having one! For sure, I guess it depends on technique / experience.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on October 24, 2021, 01:00:51 PM And I didn't hurt any finger even once! ;) That should also be one of the main reasons for using a Blockmit jig ;)I appreciate the sketch, but I am not sure I understand it except of 'well, align it with the edges of the washer', or am I missing something? ??? Sorry, I should've been clearer but I believe you got it right [e.g. no uneven sides when you check the spaces from the top].Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on January 14, 2022, 01:50:43 AM Awesome!
I stumbled on this thread almost by chance and this is definitely something I would like to test in the near future. Low tech, durable way, of storing bitcoin is definitely something I would like to test. I already had a tough on the topic, Gifting satoshis to future generations (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5213462) Now, trying first hand is now on my 2022 project list. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on January 14, 2022, 12:45:36 PM Awesome! That's cool! If you're interested in such a jig as well, feel free to tell me the dimensions of your washers & I can send you STL files to print :)I stumbled on this thread almost by chance and this is definitely something I would like to test in the near future. Low tech, durable way, of storing bitcoin is definitely something I would like to test. I already had a tough on the topic, Gifting satoshis to future generations (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5213462) Now, trying first hand is now on my 2022 project list. I didn't get around to making an easy customizable OpenSCAD (https://openscad.org/) file for it. With that, anyone could customize the file by themselves for free, but the file I have right now is only for (paid) Autodesk Fusion. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: philipma1957 on January 31, 2022, 05:55:06 PM Please note if I think I gave credit for the image correctly. I pulled it from:
https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A109/ how about using a fender washer. use center hole screw washer to plywood drill second hole screw washer in both holes put new hole at six o'clock wrap the word at 7-9-11-1-3-5 cost is a piece of plywood. 25 washers a nut and bolt when done lightly grease the coins to slow rusting. white lithium grease is good. (yeah stainless steel can rust) and you can make a jig that holds the punches using this https://www.amazon.com/Mending-Stainless-Straight-Connector-Thickness/dp/B08DNMK7W5/ref=sr_1_1?c https://i.imgur.com/atiOYrj.png Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: Rakib$11 on February 01, 2022, 03:46:55 PM Extraordinary 🙂
I already had a tough on the topic. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: philipma1957 on February 01, 2022, 06:55:06 PM Extraordinary 🙂 I already had a tough on the topic. I looked at op's idea and decided to do this. I ordered washers I ordered bolts I ordered punches I have the other gear. I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on February 02, 2022, 12:20:03 PM Extraordinary I already had a tough on the topic. I looked at op's idea and decided to do this. I ordered washers I ordered bolts I ordered punches I have the other gear. I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me. Feel free to link it here as well! :) Edit: How I understood, what will keep the washer in place will be 2 screws instead of this plastic jig. I must admit, your solution will probably hold it in place better, while being less good at holding the stamps square, not allowing to re-stamp easily in the exact same location (sometimes you don't hit it hard enough) and not allowing to stamp on a metal 'base' which is much better suited in my experience. But I'm intrigued to see it in action nonetheless! ;D Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on February 02, 2022, 08:12:56 PM yeah stainless steel can rust Only if you scrub the surface or cut it with other metal, or if you use some chemicals for cleaning.There are different types and grades of SS with different percentage of iron, chromium, nickel and carbon... in simple terms more nickel means better anti-corrosion. I think that Jameson Lopp used all kinds of testing when he tested metal seed backups, including acid with other torture methods and stainless steel survived all of them. One material that would outlive stainless steel would probably be titanium but that is expensive and I never heard of titanium washers so far ;) I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me. Great to hear and I just love reading about DIY projects, especially here in forum.What exact type of steel washers you purchased? Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: philipma1957 on February 03, 2022, 03:19:15 AM Extraordinary I already had a tough on the topic. I looked at op's idea and decided to do this. I ordered washers I ordered bolts I ordered punches I have the other gear. I am going to do my own thread as this one inspired me. Feel free to link it here as well! :) Edit: How I understood, what will keep the washer in place will be 2 screws instead of this plastic jig. I must admit, your solution will probably hold it in place better, while being less good at holding the stamps square, not allowing to re-stamp easily in the exact same location (sometimes you don't hit it hard enough) and not allowing to stamp on a metal 'base' which is much better suited in my experience. But I'm intrigued to see it in action nonetheless! ;D yeah I am certain I will have the washer held solid via 2 screws. center and six o'clock. washers came today along with bolts and nuts. I think I have a great jig Idea that will rig off your rig idea. I will hold back on that idea until I see if it works. How big is the full list of words? 24 of ? @ dkbit98 I got this. these are 18/8 vs 316 https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A109/ got 2 packs of 25 https://www.mcmaster.com/90313A108/ got 1 pack of 50 https://www.mcmaster.com/91249A726/ got 1 pack of bolts https://www.mcmaster.com/97149A100/ got 1 pack of 50 so 100 washers will allow me four sets. I know that 18/8 is not as rust resistant as 316 but some lithium grease will offer more protection. I can field test it easy peasy. Just put one outside for a few months time. My washer choice is from this company https://www.mcmaster.com/washers/oversized-washers-9/ I got the punch set below https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I0P8ADA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details edit list length is 2048 words if you had 2 separate wallets with 48 words you could make 2 of these for under 20 bucks and labor. If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you. I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers. Yeah I know it is only decently secure vs using the full list. Code:
Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on February 03, 2022, 06:09:36 PM If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you. Just 24 words give 620448401733239439360000 (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=24%21) possibilities if you don't know the order, but there's a bigger problem: you need to remember the order by yourself. So if you ask someone to make very nice looking washers with perfectly spaced words in there, you'll need to hammer in the numbers 01 to 24 by yourself.I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: philipma1957 on February 03, 2022, 06:20:52 PM If you were to give a list of 60 words from below knowing that 48 of them covered 2 wallets you could have someone make the 60 words for you. Just 24 words give 620448401733239439360000 (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=24%21) possibilities if you don't know the order, but there's a bigger problem: you need to remember the order by yourself. So if you ask someone to make very nice looking washers with perfectly spaced words in there, you'll need to hammer in the numbers 01 to 24 by yourself.I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words. If you give a list of 60 words. 48 good words for 2 full seed backups. you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt you don’t need to punch. but the fabricator would know you sent for the set of 60 words. So you would be safe more or less from the two wallets getting cracked. but the risk of five dollar wrench attack is heightened Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on February 03, 2022, 06:36:34 PM you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt Without numbers, you lose your money if you drop the washers. I wouldn't like that risk.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: philipma1957 on February 04, 2022, 04:09:11 AM you only need assemble a nut 24 correct washer bolt Without numbers, you lose your money if you drop the washers. I wouldn't like that risk.true good point Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on February 05, 2022, 10:50:53 PM And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words. I think that he said that he will do what n0nce did, that means he will put seed words on washers himself, and that is not so hard to do if you have the right tools.I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. I don't see the problem of using the full list of words, and it's not very good idea to be lazy about this.Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers. Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people? It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy :D Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: philipma1957 on February 08, 2022, 02:54:18 PM And for OPSEC it's much better to buy normal washers than have someone hammer them with wallet seed words. I think that he said that he will do what n0nce did, that means he will put seed words on washers himself, and that is not so hard to do if you have the right tools.I am lazy but would think you would be fairly secure making 2 wallets and using 48 of the 60 washers. I don't see the problem of using the full list of words, and it's not very good idea to be lazy about this.Would be very hard to crack. It could be affordable for a buyer and makable for a fabricating guy. I wonder what the math would be on 48 of 60 good words for 2 wallets. Once set up I would think it is about 1 hours labor to make the 60 washers. Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people? It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy :D maybe depends on how easy it is to do. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on February 09, 2022, 12:39:59 AM Excuse me for asking, maybe I a don't understanding this correctly, but are you planning to make this washers with seed words on them and then sell them to other people? Pretty sure such a product exists and there's definitely a place for it. Since it takes probably 2h to stamp a backup and even more time to get all the stuff needed, people might prefer buying just a set of all seed words and only having to number them correctly.It's always better to teach a man how to fish, than to give him the wish... even if he is lazy :D But I still believe for better opsec, for reducing waste and saving money, the DIY approach is king. Seems after years of engineering and professional, polished ready-to-use solutions, we are going back to the roots; DIY nodes, DIY seed backups and since 2021 (right?) even DIY hardware wallets (SeedSigner, various HW wallet 'scandals')! :D Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on February 09, 2022, 06:52:39 PM Seems after years of engineering and professional, polished ready-to-use solutions, we are going back to the roots; DIY nodes, DIY seed backups and since 2021 (right?) even DIY hardware wallets (SeedSigner, various HW wallet 'scandals')! :D I think DIY is the way to go, it's just not for everybody, because some people can only eat baby food and they can not chew for themselves ;)Most people today prefer to trust others to do the job for them, and it's not just related with Bitcoin stuff, it's the same with everything else. Probably one of the best things you can have today is nice 3D printer, learn basic soldering, working with tools, and you are good to go. It's not that hard to make your own hardware signing device, seed words backup on metal, your own bitcoin node with 3d printed case, etc. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on February 15, 2022, 06:20:16 PM I am definitely going for this.
I already have a blockmit printed. I would like to do a review of your jig. I have 24mm washers and this set of pinchers set of punchers (https://www.amazon.it/dp/B09DZ1P9FH/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_ES17TV18QA6D5481ZG75). Do you need anything else? Sending you a DM. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on February 22, 2022, 01:59:21 PM A little update from my secret location:
I got this: https://i.ibb.co/S5D8Q0G/59327870.jpg I started testing: https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob86578250aa112e98.jpeg The moment I realised I bought an anvil to secure my intergenerational wealth, it was hilarious. I am going to write a full thread on this experience. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on February 22, 2022, 04:18:25 PM A little update from my secret location: Sweeet! That's a clean setup! I am using rusty tools and for my last backup, due to no access to the anvil at the time, resorted to using a large hammer's side profile as support for the washer. Works better than you might think. ;)I got this: https://i.imgur.com/Zg4Kxx4.jpg I started testing: https://i.imgur.com/z89lX48.jpg The moment I realised I bought an anvil to secure my intergenerational wealth, it was hilarious. Same epiphany here when I did my first backup, kneeling on the ground outside hammering onto metal for hours. This caveman-type activity, with the background of securing high-tech digital decentralized online 'gold', was kind of bizarre at first, honestly! :DI am going to write a full thread on this experience. Cool, looking forward on more opinions on this backup technique in general & also specific challenges / critiques / improvement suggestions.It's still my favourite so far due to cheap material, perfect results (can throw away badly stamped washers) and privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ;)). Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on February 22, 2022, 04:24:41 PM privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ;)). This is something I thought about.Of course the most difficult part was getting the 3D printed jig. But I was lucky enough that the person didn’t know anything about bitcoins (or pretended to). We will see… Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on February 22, 2022, 04:27:46 PM privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ;)). This is something I thought about.Of course the most difficult part was getting the 3D printed jig. But I was lucky enough that the person didn’t know anything about bitcoins (or pretended to). We will see… Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on February 22, 2022, 04:41:01 PM privacy when buying the materials (preferably in store, paid for with cash, of course ;)). This is something I thought about.Of course the most difficult part was getting the 3D printed jig. But I was lucky enough that the person didn’t know anything about bitcoins (or pretended to). We will see… From the few iterations o had with people printing 3D objects, and people preparing 3D files (ehehe) I had the idea the whole 3D printing process is still to clumsy, prone to errors, trial and error, mishaps and other accidents to be considered so “safe” to make such an investment. Going forward, something definitely doing going forward. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on February 22, 2022, 04:44:51 PM From the few iterations o had with people printing 3D objects, and people preparing 3D files (ehehe) I had the idea the whole 3D printing process is still to clumsy, prone to errors, trial and error, mishaps and other accidents to be considered so “safe” to make such an investment. Well, it's not a big investment is the point I'm trying to make. You can get a working, small 3D printer for probably very close to 100€. But of course it will take time to build, set up, get into the whole process for sure.Going forward, something definitely doing going forward. Otherwise you can also always stamp onto washers without any jig. It's just a little help... :) Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on February 22, 2022, 06:34:31 PM Well, it's not a big investment is the point I'm trying to make. You can get a working, small 3D printer for probably very close to 100€. But of course it will take time to build, set up, get into the whole process for sure. 3D Printer is a great investment but I am not sure you can find decent machine for around 100 euros (if I am wrong about it please post some links).Maybe this cheap machine can work for printing jigs for steel washers or for some simple objects, but I don't think it can print more complex objects. What I would really want to have is 3d scanner, because it's much harder to make 3d model than to print it, and scanners would help a lot with this. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on February 23, 2022, 09:52:46 AM Well, it's not a big investment is the point I'm trying to make. You can get a working, small 3D printer for probably very close to 100€. But of course it will take time to build, set up, get into the whole process for sure. 3D Printer is a great investment but I am not sure you can find decent machine for around 100 euros (if I am wrong about it please post some links).Can an $80 3D printer be any good? EasyThreed K7 Review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8K1VPwcGjs) For like 150, you do already get sturdier, larger machines definitely. What I would really want to have is 3d scanner, because it's much harder to make 3d model than to print it, and scanners would help a lot with this. 3D scanners are unfortunately really bad. The idea is cool, but as of today, they're either super expensive (and still require CAD touch-up work) or very bad and not suited as an alternative to designing something by hand. The perfect application for a 3D scanner would be producing a spare part for something, but even in those cases it's faster and more accurate to use some calipers and design the part in CAD.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 07, 2022, 05:40:26 PM I found interesting project called SeedCapsule that can be useful for people who are using steel washers for holding seed words backup.
Stl files for 3d printing can be found on their github page, and what is interesting that you can make your backup tamper evident with this method. Capsule stem must be broken to take out steel washers, and it is locked with a twist before that. I am not sure if it is compatible with washers that n0nce used in this topic, but other people may use it also. https://i.imgur.com/wLiaoo6.jpg https://orange.surf/seedcapsule/ Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 07, 2022, 06:14:53 PM what is interesting that you can make your backup tamper evident with this method. That looks nice! But to make it tamper proof, you'll need to make sure you recognize the exact version you created. If someone can just print his own SeedCapsule to replace yours, you may not notice it.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 07, 2022, 06:25:15 PM That looks nice! But to make it tamper proof, you'll need to make sure you recognize the exact version you created. If someone can just print his own SeedCapsule to replace yours, you may not notice it. That is true, you can always make your own custom made details that can't be printed and duplicated exactly.It's not that hard if you have your own 3d printer, to add specific color mix or something similar like that, maybe editing stl files and making it unique. Just let your imagination go wild. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 07, 2022, 06:27:39 PM what is interesting that you can make your backup tamper evident with this method. That looks nice! But to make it tamper proof, you'll need to make sure you recognize the exact version you created. If someone can just print his own SeedCapsule to replace yours, you may not notice it.Making your seed tamperproof is a crucial aspect of the whole process. I found a solution, but I am far from satisfied from that. Keep in mind that ideally many years can pass between the creation of the backup and his usage. So verification of the taper isn't trivial. Regarding to this: It's not that hard if you have your own 3d printer, to add specific color mix or something similar like that, maybe editing stl files and making it unique. Just let your imagination go wild. You have to "remember", or communicate to the third person. Which colors/pattern used for that specific seed. It is an added layer of complexity. I'd be better to speed up and disclose my own method. But damn... I am busy IRL. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 08, 2022, 06:10:56 PM Making your seed tamperproof is a crucial aspect of the whole process. I found a solution, but I am far from satisfied from that. Any tamperproof method is better than none, but let's not think that it is perfect method for protection.Using stickers is probably cheapest way when you are using seed phrase backup on paper and custom made envelope that can't be reproduced so easy. I know some people are selling more expensive tamper evident plastic bags that can be used for coins or for crypto, but think this is waste of money. Interesting free idea is taking different colored grains and legumes in tight box container, mixing it all up and taking a picture of that mix. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 08, 2022, 06:32:47 PM Interesting free idea is taking different colored grains and legumes in tight box container, mixing it all up and taking a picture of that mix. Sorry, I am not smart enough to understand how this should work. Also, you don't need to take care of a seed, but now you need to take care of a picture? Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on March 08, 2022, 06:40:00 PM Sorry, I am not smart enough to understand how this should work. Also, you don't need to take care of a seed, but now you need to take care of a picture? Take a transparent plastic food container.Fill it half full with a variety of rice, grains, legumes, seeds, confetti, different colored ball bearings, etc. Place your seed phrase inside. Fill the rest of the box with more of the above until it is overflowing. Force the lid on, sealing everything inside tightly so it can't move around. Take photos of the box from a variety of angles. Hide the box. Now, when you go back to retrieve the box in the future, you can compare the photos you took before to how it looks now. If anyone has opened it to access your seed phrase, all the grains or whatever you used will have moved around and will look different to the photos. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 08, 2022, 07:41:24 PM Now, when you go back to retrieve the box in the future, you can compare the photos you took before to how it looks now. If anyone has opened it to access your seed phrase, all the grains or whatever you used will have moved around and will look different to the photos. If I lose the picture, the proof is not effective. If somehow the box tumbles or it is moved in a “wrong way” the tamper proof would reveal a false positive. If someone wants to check the integrity without the picture, he simply cannot. Mhh I appreciate the design simplicity, but I don’t like it. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 08, 2022, 08:40:22 PM Sorry, I am not smart enough to understand how this should work. Also, you don't need to take care of a seed, but now you need to take care of a picture? It's not like you have to keep this image safe from terrorist or hackers, because nobody knows why you are using regular photo of grain and legumes.There is no way you can get false positive for tamper break if you do it correctly, this is not some rocket science and you don't need lot of time or money to make it. I remember that I saw easy instructions how to make this yourself but I can't find it right now. Guys from EntropySeal are doing something similar: https://www.entropyseal.com/ Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 08, 2022, 08:50:33 PM https://www.entropyseal.com/ Thanks, now there is another piece of gadgetry I do want. What concerns me about the picture is not that terrorist or hackers are going to crack it. But that it simply get lost, because the person responsible for hodling this loses access, a tech failure or other common mishaps can happen to a digital good over the years. My idea is that the tamper proof should be locked inside the box, so that it is a self contained “circular reference”. Since we are here, a preview of my upcoming test of n0nce jig: https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blobcf46fe2e4f8137f9.jpeg I added to the washers a couple of “special ones” with the serial numbers of the tamper proof seals printed on it. Edit: Reduced size of the picture so sensitive users don’t get offended! /j Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 09, 2022, 08:44:40 AM Now, when you go back to retrieve the box in the future, you can compare the photos you took before to how it looks now. If anyone has opened it to access your seed phrase, all the grains or whatever you used will have moved around and will look different to the photos. Being tamper proof only helps you if funds haven't moved between the moment someone tampered with it, and the moment you discover the tampering. So if you hide your transparent container well enough, you probably won't check it very often. And long before you notice someone tampered with it, you'll notice your funds suddenly disappeared.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on March 09, 2022, 11:02:01 AM Being tamper proof only helps you if funds haven't moved between the moment someone tampered with it, and the moment you discover the tampering. So if you hide your transparent container well enough, you probably won't check it very often. And long before you notice someone tampered with it, you'll notice your funds suddenly disappeared. This is true if you use a single seed phrase and nothing else. If you use a seed phrase and an additional passphrase, or a multi-sig set up, then there is a lot to be gained from having a tamper-evident container. If someone accessed one of my seed phrases, for example, even though they couldn't steal any of my coins I'd definitely want to know that they could now be attempting to brute force one of my passphrases or actively searching for another one of my back up locations so I could take the necessary steps to re-secure my wallets. I'd also want to know that a location I thought was secure had been compromised, since that could have an impact on my other storage locations.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 09, 2022, 11:09:24 AM Being tamper proof only helps you if funds haven't moved between the moment someone tampered with it, and the moment you discover the tampering. So if you hide your transparent container well enough, you probably won't check it very often. And long before you notice someone tampered with it, you'll notice your funds suddenly disappeared. This is true if you use a single seed phrase and nothing else. If you use a seed phrase and an additional passphrase, or a multi-sig set up, then there is a lot to be gained from having a tamper-evident container. If someone accessed one of my seed phrases, for example, even though they couldn't steal any of my coins I'd definitely want to know that they could now be attempting to brute force one of my passphrases or actively searching for another one of my back up locations so I could take the necessary steps to re-secure my wallets. I'd also want to know that a location I thought was secure had been compromised, since that could have an impact on my other storage locations.I am always concerned about spreading pass phrases across different locations. If I am splitting my pass phrase across two locations (12 washers in one container in a hole drilled on a wall, the other on a well in my mountain hut, just to stay on topic), am I making my setup more secure, or less secure? Of course in a complex dead-man switch multisig setup the tamper proof is more important, but I guess the complexity of the setup is order of magnitude more critical than a simple fund storage. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on March 09, 2022, 11:20:39 AM If I am splitting my pass phrase across two locations (12 washers in one container in a hole drilled on a wall, the other on a well in my mountain hut, just to stay on topic), am I making my setup more secure, or less secure? You are making it more secure from theft, but less secure from loss. The trick to any back up is finding the correct balance between the two. This will be unique to every person, their circumstances, their personal threat model, the wallets they are using, etc.I have a couple of wallets which are secured only by a seed phrase. These wallets never contain more than I am willing to lose, such as my mobile daily spending wallet. I also have several cold storage wallets which contain much more money and are secured by much more than a single seed phrase. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 09, 2022, 03:43:14 PM Prompted by fillippone's latest thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5388917.0), I got the motivation to finally make an open-source, easily customizable (fully parametric) design of my jig.
The code is found here. I haven't tested it yet (printed), but from measuring the dimensions and tolerances, it should be almost a 1:1 copy of what I had previously designed in a commercial, closed-source and not free CAD program, with less parametrization. If there are any questions or issues with the code, or maybe improvement suggestions, let me know. [NEW!!] OpenSCAD design finalized! Paste this following code into OpenSCAD (https://openscad.org/) (free, open source) and set the parameters to whatever fits your washers and stamps. Then hit F5 and F6 to preview and render the two models. Finally, export the STL file and print it out. Code: // n0nce's Steel Washer backup jig Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 09, 2022, 04:15:47 PM Prompted by fillippone's latest thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5388917.0), I got the motivation to finally make an open-source, easily customizable (fully parametric) design of my jig. The code is found here. <…> This is a great news. Thank you very much n0nce for this. It will be way more simple to get a jig customised on each own needs. The stamp customisation will be of utter utility, as it will allow for easier use of “recovered” stamps without buying new ones (Opsec Reasons). Also, as you mentioned it, I am soon going to translate my thread in English, once I have polished it a little bit. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 09, 2022, 04:19:44 PM Prompted by fillippone's latest thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5388917.0), I got the motivation to finally make an open-source, easily customizable (fully parametric) design of my jig. The code is found here. <…> This is a great news. Thank you very much n0nce for this. It will be way more simple to get a jig customised on each own needs. Yes, correct, I'd like people to use whatever they have already or what they can find locally so they don't have to make suspicious online purchases... ;)The stamp customisation will be of utter utility, as it will allow for easier use of “recovered” stamps without buying new ones (Opsec Reasons). Only one thing to mention: This is now designed with 30-ish millimetre or smaller outer washer diameter; the jig size doesn't change, so you can do anything that's smaller, but not really larger ones. If someone needs that, just increase the jig's outer size, which is currently coded to 54mmx54mm. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 09, 2022, 08:11:09 PM I added to the washers a couple of “special ones” with the serial numbers of the tamper proof seals printed on it. Is this Italian thing to post big images with red color like this? :DWhat happens if someone removes this stickers and put them back in same place or make a copy first before doing that? Good tamper evident stickers should leave some residue that is hard to remove from surface indicating sticker was removed aka void happened. https://i.imgur.com/lHZCfjY.jpg Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 09, 2022, 08:40:40 PM I added to the washers a couple of “special ones” with the serial numbers of the tamper proof seals printed on it. Is this Italian thing to post big images with red color like this? :DWhat happens if someone removes this stickers and put them back in same place or make a copy first before doing that? Good tamper evident stickers should leave some residue that is hard to remove from surface indicating sticker was removed aka void happened. https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob851bb0b6c7e2961d.jpeg I should have posted a bigger picture, as this is exactly the kind of stickers I have used. Also important they have a serial number. Don’t worry, I am going to explain everything in the English version of my thread, which has HYGE pictures. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 10, 2022, 12:50:41 PM I should have posted a bigger picture, as this is exactly the kind of stickers I have used. Also important they have a serial number. Mamma mia!Don’t worry, I am going to explain everything in the English version of my thread, which has HYGE pictures. Don't forget to accidently put red Ferrari or lot of red ripe tomatoes in background. One question, where did you buy this kind of void stickers with serial numbers, online or locally? I was looking to order void roll tape that is cheaper and you can customize size and shape yourself... and guess what, they have RED color ;) https://i.imgur.com/gNLCP0E.jpg Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 10, 2022, 01:04:16 PM I should have posted a bigger picture, as this is exactly the kind of stickers I have used. Also important they have a serial number. Mamma mia!Don’t worry, I am going to explain everything in the English version of my thread, which has HYGE pictures. Don't forget to accidently put red Ferrari or lot of red ripe tomatoes in background. One question, where did you buy this kind of void stickers with serial numbers, online or locally? I was looking to order void roll tape that is cheaper and you can customize size and shape yourself... and guess what, they have RED color ;) https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob26ef75dfacbcad7e.jpeg Bear with me. I am going to translate the whole bunch of informations in English. Today I added a paragraph regarding... Glitter Nail Polish... wondering if it is available in RED (not sure I am getting this joke, btw) Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 10, 2022, 04:45:15 PM If you use a seed phrase and an additional passphrase, or a multi-sig set up, then there is a lot to be gained from having a tamper-evident container. This makes a lot of sense :) I didn't consider the multisig scenario when I wrote about tamper proofness being quite useless.Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address. I was looking to order void roll tape that is cheaper and you can customize size and shape yourself... and guess what, they have RED color ;) How useful is this if anyone can just buy it on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Welstik-Tamper-Evident-Security-Transfer/dp/B07Y9CP7HJ)? It should be more unique than that.I am going to translate the whole bunch of informations in English. I wanted to Merit your post already, but I'll save it for the version I can actually read :)Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 10, 2022, 05:35:47 PM Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address. As far as I know, Bitcoin is the only crypto natively supporting multisig. Multisig are actually more se ire than single sig, only lacking a truly idiot proof interface. I have great expectations for Taproot to make degrading multisig easy to implement for the idiot user (like me). Something that was implemented by GreenAddress, for example, with a custom software implementation. A degrading 3/4 multisig would be my perfect ideal setup. How useful is this if anyone can just buy it on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Welstik-Tamper-Evident-Security-Transfer/dp/B07Y9CP7HJ)? It should be more unique than that. Absolutely correct. This is why you need at least a serial number on that. I am going to translate the whole bunch of informations in English. I wanted to Merit your post already, but I'll save it for the version I can actually read :)I have to deliver then. I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 10, 2022, 05:54:43 PM I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone. What do you mean?Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 10, 2022, 05:58:50 PM As far as I know, Bitcoin is the only crypto natively supporting multisig. That's not true, I've seen it in Byteball (now Obyte), which actually supported it from it's official wallet. From what I remember, this was much more idiot proof by default than manually setting it up in Electrum. It's been a few years, but what I remember is linking the different wallets from inside each wallet, which worked nicely.Quote I have great expectations for Taproot to make degrading multisig easy to implement for the idiot user (like me). Electrum is confusing: If you create a multisig wallet, you can't even save your incomplete wallet before you have the master public keys from all other wallets too. I tested it earlier today (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5386113.msg59479940#msg59479940), and it's disappointingly labour intensive.I just realize talking about multisig in a topic about steel washer backups is slightly off-topic. And of course setting up multisig is much less labour intensive than 3D printing and hammering words into steel :P I've spent hours setting up a secure wallet and backups in the past. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 10, 2022, 06:40:13 PM I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone. What do you mean?https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xIG-4-9pjVg/ULXO3-8J6XI/AAAAAAAAHVE/tSSIuFNMcu8/s640/ilovenp_christmasinbordeaux.jpg Buying an anvil is ok. Buying glitter nail polish, and watching YouTube videos on how to apply it, it is not. As far as I know, Bitcoin is the only crypto natively supporting multisig. That's not true, I've seen it in Byteball (now Obyte), which actually supported it from it's official wallet. From what I remember, this was much more idiot proof by default than manually setting it up in Electrum.I knew that writing that sentence above I was exposing myself to being proven wrong by some obscure shitcoin. Yes, byteball is an obscure shitcoin. And yes, multisig implementation is cumbersome. This is why I hope the next protocol advancement will make this simpler. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 10, 2022, 07:14:13 PM How useful is this if anyone can just buy it on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Welstik-Tamper-Evident-Security-Transfer/dp/B07Y9CP7HJ)? It should be more unique than that. You can buy it on amazon or ebay but you can't remove residue with void message so easy and that's the whole point.It is easy to customize it with different unique shapes, and I was not going to use this for bitcoin seed words but for regular envelops with paper documents. You can also order this tapes with custom design, so for fillippone I would add custom ferrari drawing with electric power, or you can send them any design you want. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 11, 2022, 01:53:05 AM I’m on the case. Latest addition to the italian OP are beyond my comfort zone. What do you mean?https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xIG-4-9pjVg/ULXO3-8J6XI/AAAAAAAAHVE/tSSIuFNMcu8/s640/ilovenp_christmasinbordeaux.jpg Buying an anvil is ok. Buying glitter nail polish, and watching YouTube videos on how to apply it, it is not. This is why I hope the next protocol advancement will make this simpler. Are you sure it's a protocol issue? I think it's more just the software implementations. For example, BlueWallet and I think also Sparrow, give pretty good UIs for creating multisig wallets.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 11, 2022, 09:28:46 AM You can buy it on amazon or ebay but you can't remove residue with void message so easy and that's the whole point. My assumption for those stickers has always been that it's not easy to replace them. Removing residue shouldn't be that hard (using a solvent).I've seen laptops with an anti-theft-sticker which covered a "Stolen Property" warning burned into the plastic. That would make it much harder to cover up tampering. Quote I was not going to use this for bitcoin seed words but for regular envelops with paper documents. On paper, I agree that it's going to be very difficult to remove any sticker residue without leaving permanent damage.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 11, 2022, 02:41:45 PM I've seen laptops with an anti-theft-sticker which covered a "Stolen Property" warning burned into the plastic. That would make it much harder to cover up tampering. You know how easy nowadays is to buy spare plastic part for that laptop and replace it, especially cover is cheap and I even saw people adding foil over damaged covers.Sure, residue can probably be removed with some solvent depending on what surface is used on device but it's not always so easy. I got one sticker I tested on metal plate and it was impossible to remove residue without scratching metal or removing surface color. There is always a factor of time to consider, more the sticker is on surface more will color be different (preserved) from surrounding surface. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 11, 2022, 02:43:05 PM That looks nice! But to make it tamper proof, you'll need to make sure you recognize the exact version you created. If someone can just print his own SeedCapsule to replace yours, you may not notice it. That is true, you can always make your own custom made details that can't be printed and duplicated exactly.It's not that hard if you have your own 3d printer, to add specific color mix or something similar like that, maybe editing stl files and making it unique. Just let your imagination go wild. Also this idea of mixing filaments is pretty cool; reminds me of fillippone's glitter nail polish idea. It will be pretty hard to replicate the 'mix' 1:1 another time. You can simply pause the print at a random time, switch the filament and repeat it however often you want. Adding a design into the file itself would also work, but it'll be easier to replicate. Sure, residue can probably be removed with some solvent depending on what surface is used on device but it's not always so easy. Actually, 3D prints will be one of the surfaces where it's hard to get off such a sticker without damaging the plastic, since it's usually soft and reactive to lots of chemicals. Prints also have lots of small ridges where the adhesive can get into nicely, so no chance of simply peeling it off cleanly either.I got one sticker I tested on metal plate and it was impossible to remove residue without scratching metal or removing surface color. There is always a factor of time to consider, more the sticker is on surface more will color be different (preserved) from surrounding surface. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 11, 2022, 03:03:46 PM Also this idea of mixing filaments is pretty cool; reminds me of fillippone's glitter nail polish idea. It will be pretty hard to replicate the 'mix' 1:1 another time. You can simply pause the print at a random time, switch the filament and repeat it however often you want. We are probably getting into paranoid twilight zone territory with something like this, but I think this is much better approach then not using any protection at all.Adding a design into the file itself would also work, but it'll be easier to replicate. One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem. Combine this with something like SeedCapsule that has stem-to-be-broken, and you got yourself a damn good tamper evident setup. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 11, 2022, 03:09:45 PM One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem. As per nail polish, or any other entropy-related scheme, you are supposed to take a picture (and safely store) to check against to the seal while opening it. Progressing with the translation of the thread. Should soon land. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 11, 2022, 03:17:49 PM Also this idea of mixing filaments is pretty cool; reminds me of fillippone's glitter nail polish idea. It will be pretty hard to replicate the 'mix' 1:1 another time. You can simply pause the print at a random time, switch the filament and repeat it however often you want. We are probably getting into paranoid twilight zone territory with something like this, but I think this is much better approach then not using any protection at all.Adding a design into the file itself would also work, but it'll be easier to replicate. One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem. Combine this with something like SeedCapsule that has stem-to-be-broken, and you got yourself a damn good tamper evident setup. I just had another idea though: if you go for tamper-evidence, and you've got seals that stick to metal as well as you mentioned earlier, you could also just put one or two directly onto the 'stack' of washers. To read the seed, you will obviously have to separate the washers from one another, breaking the sealing stickers. Progressing with the translation of the thread. Should soon land. Very nice! Looking forward to it; though it will be a long read if it's similar to the Italian one. ;)Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 11, 2022, 04:03:37 PM One problem I see here would be if you totally forget how your printed stuff looked like originally, as a result of some amnesia or other memory problem. Since we're on the subject of printing custom capsules with multiple colors: how about making the capsules for each part of the multisig storage line up? Say you have 3 cylinders with metal washers. When you put those 3 cylinders together, a matching pattern occurs. That way you don't need to remember the exact details of each cylinder, but you do need to get them all together to check if any tampering took place.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on March 12, 2022, 08:47:25 AM Somehow multisig always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable: it doesn't "feel" as solid as using just one privkey for just one address. Although I don't share those reservations I can certainly understand them, but I still think that using a standardized method which is reproducible across multiple different pieces of wallet software (or even manually) such as multi-sig or passphrases is far preferable to any other scheme such as seed splitting or Shamir's.If you are thinking of putting something directly on to the stack of washers, then why not just use a couple of different colors of metal paint and paint over the whole stack. For someone to open the stack they would have to break them apart which would obviously damage the paint. And obviously you can take photos to ensure someone hasn't painted over your paint. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 12, 2022, 11:00:05 PM As per nail polish, or any other entropy-related scheme, you are supposed to take a picture (and safely store) to check against to the seal while opening it. I know you need to take a picture, that is why I said that remembering something like that is not a good option long term,but I am just brainstorming that someone could find that picture and replace it with their own fake copy anytime. Since we're on the subject of printing custom capsules with multiple colors: how about making the capsules for each part of the multisig storage line up? Say you have 3 cylinders with metal washers. When you put those 3 cylinders together, a matching pattern occurs. That way you don't need to remember the exact details of each cylinder, but you do need to get them all together to check if any tampering took place. Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on March 13, 2022, 12:26:22 AM I finally published the translation of the guide on the language most can comprehend:
Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg59506339#msg59506339) Hope you enjoy it and I am waiting for many suggestions! Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 13, 2022, 12:38:56 AM Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life. Since I did it before, I can confirm it's quite trivial to manually pause a print and change filament mid-way through. There's a 'filament swap' feature in most modern printers that does it all automatically; you only need to insert the new colour.You could even tilt the model in the slicing software before printing at a random angle, which will be tricky to replicate (though it would then print with support material, costing more and taking longer). I finally published the translation of the guide on the language most can comprehend: Quickly skimmed it; it seems 1:1 like the Italian one which was great as well, so no complaints from me! ;)Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg59506339#msg59506339) Hope you enjoy it and I am waiting for many suggestions! Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on March 13, 2022, 11:43:38 AM Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life. Since I did it before, I can confirm it's quite trivial to manually pause a print and change filament mid-way through. There's a 'filament swap' feature in most modern printers that does it all automatically; you only need to insert the new colour.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: n0nce on March 13, 2022, 11:55:46 AM Idea is not bad in principle but I think it needs some testing from people who owns 3d printers (read n0nce) to see how it works in real life. Since I did it before, I can confirm it's quite trivial to manually pause a print and change filament mid-way through. There's a 'filament swap' feature in most modern printers that does it all automatically; you only need to insert the new colour.Resin printers are also gaining popularity, which produce a smoother finish, but won't allow for any type of colour change. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: o_e_l_e_o on March 13, 2022, 03:38:44 PM but I am just brainstorming that someone could find that picture and replace it with their own fake copy anytime. I think we might be bordering on the ridiculous here, even for someone as paranoid as me. Someone would have to know your entire system, figure out where you stored that photo, hack in to your device to view the photo, find your seed phrase, break it and then reseal it, recreate the photo you took with the same angle/lighting/surroundings/etc., and then hack back in to your device to replace the photo. And all that to only compromise one part of what is presumably a multi-layered back up.The attacker in question will almost certainly look for a different way to target you. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on March 14, 2022, 12:02:34 AM Wait, and here I thought 3D-printers would be able to print in color.... Google tells me it exists, but at a whole different price level (a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars). It's easy to order this replacement fillers online or locally, and I think you can find at least one seller that sells all different fillers even in small towns.I know all this from ads I see and I personally ordered some simple stuff for printing... I could always choose from several color options. I think we might be bordering on the ridiculous here, even for someone as paranoid as me. Yeah we are :D and I also said before that we entered the paranoid twilight zone territory like Rod Serling in famous tv series, we just need that theme songhttps://i.ibb.co/c1nMsBK/pic53.jpg Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: NotATether on April 01, 2024, 09:18:50 AM I am sorry for bumping this but lately I have been trying to figure out how this backup method works, so my questions about this might come across as ignorant.
I do have some CAD experience so I get the washer part, but what is that black thing that is holding the washer in place? And do I need one for each washer (i.e. word)? ??? And according to the GIF showing the thing moving, it looks like you just rotate it to hide/reveal the washer? Or does it open/close? Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on April 02, 2024, 10:06:54 AM I do have some CAD experience so I get the washer part, but what is that black thing that is holding the washer in place? That's the jig part... Apart from holding the washer in place, it helps with the spacing and alignment while also providing some protection against hammering our fingers.And do I need one for each washer (i.e. word)? ??? No, you only need one to stamp on all of them.And according to the GIF showing the thing moving, it looks like you just rotate it to hide/reveal the washer? Or does it open/close? There aren't any moving parts on the jig to open/close that opening.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 11:02:45 AM I am sorry for bumping this but lately I have been trying to figure out how this backup method works, so my questions about this might come across as ignorant. I do have some CAD experience so I get the washer part, but what is that black thing that is holding the washer in place? And do I need one for each washer (i.e. word)? ??? And according to the GIF showing the thing moving, it looks like you just rotate it to hide/reveal the washer? Or does it open/close? I wrote a thread, there is a gif and a video of the whole process: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg59506339#msg59506339) I hope that reading that you will find aclarificatiin of your doubt. Anyway yes, the jig is meant to hold the washer you are stamping in position. You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on. Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again. So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig. In case, just ask. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: NotATether on April 04, 2024, 11:25:01 AM I wrote a thread, there is a gif and a video of the whole process: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.msg59506339#msg59506339) I hope that reading that you will find aclarificatiin of your doubt. Anyway yes, the jig is meant to hold the washer you are stamping in position. You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on. Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again. So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig. In case, just ask. Your thread is very helpful, and it seems that preparing the washers requires substantial amount of manual work :) I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process. One part I do not understand is the serial number part. Why are you stamping that onto the washers? It doesn't seem at first glance to be verifying anything, especially if you're going to put all this into a tamper-proof container. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on April 04, 2024, 11:28:53 AM I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process. Anything that automates something adds the risk of storing the data.Quote One part I do not understand is the serial number part. Why are you stamping that onto the washers? If you drop 24 washers without knowing the order, your backup is worthless.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: NotATether on April 04, 2024, 11:34:32 AM I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process. Anything that automates something adds the risk of storing the data.I was thinking something more mechanical, where you have all 26 stamps inside the machine. Sure there's going to inevitably be some flash memory required to remember the words, but this is not supposed to be a network-connected device anyway, and I believe there are methods for securely destroying flash memory when you are done with it (although that might get expensive quickly). Anyway I'm just throwing ideas around, I'm not really sure what a good solution for this would be. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 11:51:42 AM I was thinking maybe a device could be invented to automate many parts of this process. Anything that automates something adds the risk of storing the data.Quote One part I do not understand is the serial number part. Why are you stamping that onto the washers? If you drop 24 washers without knowing the order, your backup is worthless.I think he’s actually referring to the washers with the serial number of the tamper-proof labels. It is an additional layer of complexity. This is meant to avoid someone breaking the tamper-proof labels and substituting those with new ones without the necessity also to restamp the washers, which requires new identical washers, with identical labels, and stamps. Not perfect, but I guess effective. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on April 04, 2024, 05:59:27 PM You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on. Did you alter the STL file from your end [specifically referring to the jig itself (apart from your name)]? I remember thoroughly checking the STL files when @n0nce created this thread, but AFAICR the squarish opening on the jig didn't open and close [the only way to reposition it was by lifting it first].Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again. So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: dkbit98 on April 04, 2024, 06:26:32 PM If you drop 24 washers without knowing the order, your backup is worthless. There is a risk with that (additional order numbers would probably fix this) but it's not totally worthless, there is still a chance of finding correct order when you know 24 from total of 2048 words.I was thinking something more mechanical, where you have all 26 stamps inside the machine. Sure there's going to inevitably be some flash memory required to remember the words, but this is not supposed to be a network-connected device anyway, and I believe there are methods for securely destroying flash memory when you are done with it (although that might get expensive quickly). I don't like this because it can create more risk in overall setup.Stainless steel washers are cheap and great, but I am coming up with alternative option for storing seed phrase, it will be released soon. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: LoyceV on April 04, 2024, 06:43:15 PM there is still a chance of finding correct order when you know 24 from total of 2048 words. That gives 6.2*1023 possibilities. With 12 words, it's doable. With 24, it's not going to happen.Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: fillippone on April 04, 2024, 06:55:36 PM You open the jig, insert the washer, stamp a letter, rotate the upper part, stamp the other letter and so on. Did you alter the STL file from your end [specifically referring to the jig itself (apart from your name)]? I remember thoroughly checking the STL files when @n0nce created this thread, but AFAICR the squarish opening on the jig didn't open and close [the only way to reposition it was by lifting it first].Then you open it, remove the stamped washers and insert a new one, then close it again. So yes, it opens and closes, and you need only one jig. Exactly. I didn't modify the files from n0nce (who very kindly offered me a customised version of his jig—or was it one of the parameters in the file?). kindly offered When I said you could open and close the jig, I meant lifting and lowering the upper part. Title: Re: n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable) Post by: SFR10 on April 04, 2024, 09:14:40 PM I didn't modify the files from n0nce (who very kindly offered me a customised version of his jig—or was it one of the parameters in the file?). kindly offered I thought [and also hoped] you managed to improve the original design of the jig in a way that the protruded part would slide in and out of the crevices [or rather sections] and the squarish opening.When I said you could open and close the jig, I meant lifting and lowering the upper part. Thank you for the clarification :) |