Bitcoin Forum

 
Today we are proud to announce a new outreach effort to find and convert new Bitcoin users.  I gave a preview of this during my presentation in Prague.  Well, we are now live!
 
http://lovebitcoins.org (http://lovebitcoins.org)
 
Our goal is to aggressively advertise and reach out to new potential users, and convert them to becoming Bitcoin users.  We will target Libertarian groups, Ron Paul supporters, foreign students, immigrant workers, gold and silver bugs, international business travelers, and more.  The site will spend money on advertising the usability of Bitcoins as an alternative to PayPal, debit cards, Western Union, and wire transfers.
 
What it is:
A simple place for new users to get started
Focus on the ways to USE Bitcoins
Mostly geared to consumer users, but will have info for businesses also
A place to direct the media and reporters
 
What it is not:  
A Wiki or library all about Bitcoins
A directory for Bitcoin sites
Anything too technical in nature
Promoting Bitcoin as any type of Buy-and-Hold investment
 
We expect this site to start seeing high traffic starting in January, as we will be doing a special promotion with the man himself, Max Keiser!  Max is committed to using his TV, radio, and internet appearances towards helping us reach our goal of 1 million users.  
 
If you have a Bitcoin business, and you would like to be featured on this high-traffic website, click on the link that says “Become a Member.”
 
If you are an Individual and would like to have your name listed as a supporter on our site, click on the link that says “Become a Member.”

I chose the 1 million goal for several reasons:
- it will make any bans or fines irrelevant
- it will push larger businesses to adopt
- it will gain critical mass to snowball from

By the end of 2012, expect to see digital wallets from Apple, Google, and Facebook.  However, right now, they have NO product, and we do.  The next 12 months are perfect for Bitcoin.  So if you see anyone, and I mean anyone, that is interested in a digital wallet, let's grab them.  Grab them All!
 
My main project between now and January 1st is getting some starter kits ready for new users that will be coming from Max.  We all realize that Bitcoin is not ready for grandma, but it IS ready to start expanding beyond the group of mostly unix hackers we have now.
 
I am building starter kits for people of different skill levels.  If you would like to contribute ideas, please feel free to reply to this thread, or contact me directly.  I want to put the most effort into the blue and black sections, and keep it as non-technical as possible.  I do not think the technology is ready for the green users just yet.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/tonygal/2011-12-03_1850.png

Now, this is what I'm talking about ^^  ;D  This is exactly what the community needs! great job Bit-Pay!  ;D

It looks pretty bad when you have no digital wallets recommended for "beginners."
However, I love the idea of this kind of Bitcoin Foundation.

That's because as of today, there are no wallets on the market that would meet the criteria for beginners.  The reason is highlighted in RED in the chart. Wallet development is key for this effort!  We have plenty of exchanges, but not enough wallets. 

I would put more work/thought into this before promoting it. What you have is much too complicated and text heavy. You are asking users to make too many choices.

My model: Make some intriguing claims, put up some self-explanatory images and videos, invite people to play around with a bitcent, explain how to take the bitcent to a client, explain how to take the bitcent from a client to Mt. Gox.

e.g Let them javamine for a bitcent, stored on your site, and then play a simple gambling game. For example, minesweeper for bitcents.

Describe the steps of cashing out from the site to a client. Direct people to one client.  Walk them through the use of this client.

Direct people to one exchange, walk them through the steps of this one exchange. Solicit sponsorship from the exchange, use sponsorship to subsidize people playing minesweeper.

Max won't be promoting this till January.  So, we have time to improve it.

We are working with exchanges and wallet makers to improve the user experience.

Running a wallet service in the US is problematic unless you have money transmitter licenses.

I think it's problematic introducing newbies to the concept of mining.  It doesn't fit in with using Bitcoin as a currency.  For most people, mining is something they can easily skip.

Agree 100%.

thanks for the feedback guys.  Our challenge is the simple problem where we cannot assume that "one size fits all". 

what wallet do we use?  well, it depends on their skill level. 

What exchange do we use?  well, it depends on their country.

I would really like to make it even simpler than it is now, with less text and options, but unfortunately Max reaches people all over the world.  So he sends everyone to one place, and we direct the people from there.

Your main goal should be to capture people's imagination and suggest some first steps. A 4x4 table is not the way!

Clever people do their own research. Refer the experts to other resources.

Hmm, I'm not sure how displaying only native currencies reduces your Bitcoin risk. For beginners you really want there to be no FX risk at all? How is that possible short of issuing USDcoins, EURcoins that use the same algorithms but are backed by a central bitbank of some kind?

good point.  I guess technically it's never holding any bitcoins, as opposed to not displaying them.  Meaning, deposit $100 in fiat and let it sit there in the wallet as $100.  Don't buy any Bitcoins because if the value drops by 20%, suddenly you only have $80 worth of buying power for your $100.  That will piss off new users more than anything!

The idea is to get people to start using bitcoin wallets, without any volatility risk or understanding how bitcoin works.  When they need to send bitcoins, just have the wallet buy them at market price at the moment they need to be sent.  The Bitcoin price becomes irrelevant at that point.

People keep fiat in PayPal all the time.  A decent bitcoin wallet can offer the same.  However, the usability is not there yet, but its something to aim for in 2012.  Let's just say it this way: "Green is for Grandma."

Yes, it really needs some an attention grabbing and selling headline.

How can I use Bitcoins

Its no good. Since it does not communicate why a user should get involved with Bitcoins and does not arouse curriosity.
It sounds to boring.

Its a great headline to use once a prospect is allready interested in Bitcoins.

You should also speak to your subject as in.

How you can use Bitcoins.

Me? Yes you...
(How can I, is not as effective as you since it sound a little like you are speaking about yourself.)

Its allready better. But still not good enough.

Even better would perhaps be.

Why you will use Bitcoins

Now, this one just forces you to watch the content.
What do they mean? I´m not going to use bitcoins...What are they talking about...

Or

Why you will love Bitcoins

Here you have an emotional word, we imply that they will not only use them, but also love using them.

Though, since once you click play you have a much better headline/ start of the video.

Whats so great about Bitcoins

This one makes you much more curious.

If possible make something like that the headline.

Here is some good advice.
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/06/29/five-copywriting-errors-that-can-ruin-a-company-website/

And here are some more.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/types-of-propaganda-techniques.html

You might also want to get a copy of some good books such as
Tested advertising methods and read it.
(Recommended by John caples.)

Though if you get that book, take some advices with a pinch of salt.
Such as the preference for long texts, people are much more stressed today.
Short messages gets more readers on the web.

Also images are very important...

Is your campaign an advertisement for bit-pay or for bitcoin?
Why all the support behind externally hosted wallets?
Isn't external hosting how the majority of thefts and frauds have happened so far?
How does external hosting make things easier for anyone?
Why recommend external hosting to beginners?

This is perfect.  The video was made a few months ago.  when we get time and money to redo it, This will be in it.  Thanks!

The idea is that the general public does not have the security skills needed to run the official client.  But they can still take advantage of the benefits of Bitcoins.

I would argue that a proper external host is more secure than the average person's computer.  And if the person is a windows user and surfs the internet looking for free porn, well then an external host is definitely safer.

BitcoinSpinner (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52674.0) was designed to be as simple as possible while NOT being a bitcoin bank, and was tailored for mass adoption.

• The app has the private keys -> no one can run away with your coins
• A server manages the block chain -> No block chain downloading, and the app is ready for use immediately

In the OP list this would fit for Intermediate users, not beginners. However, look at how easy this is to spread:

Setting: 2 guys meet on a street corer. Both have an Android phone, and one has BitcoinSpinner and a few BTC.
1. Fred: Hey, wanna learn about Bticoin?
2. Joe: Sure, what do I do?
3. Fred: Download BitcoinSpinner from the Android Market
4. Joe (takes less than a munite): Done.
5. Fred: Let me scan that QR code of yours and send you 3 Bitcoins
6. Joe (5 seconds later): My app says that they are already in transit.
7. Fred: Yes, and in 10 minutes you can repeat what I just did with the next guy you meet.

I'll see if I can make a simple video with the above, however I am not a natural when it comes to video.

Nice job!

Sure, the site still look a bit not completed, but it's a good start

Now make it better and put much more links, to the "official" bitcoin website and to the wiki

Jan - this looks VERY promising.  I will download it and investigate.  Thanks!

Most of your recommended "groups" are not storing private keys which is wrong IMHO.
I would want the opposite. May be create a fund for hiring some programmers to create first fully-featured light client :)

Just remember - one of the top priority bitcoin feature is that no one controls YOUR money. Not really true with "wallet managing" sites even if they can't move user's coins without his password/key part.

The current "official" client is not suitable for plain users. Not because it's too dangerous or skills required, but because plain user doesn't wants to 1) wait a couple of days for the first launch, 2) keep 1+ Gb of chain data.
Wrong solution: spoil the fun by using online wallets.
Correct solution: create a light client.
Really, we need more different client applications.

I agree.  I would like to replace what's on the site now, with something like you describe.

A mobile wallet client should contain the private keys, but not the blockchain.  Keys should be exportable and able to be backed up.  Nothing like that exists today, from what I know, so rather than have an empty table I had to recommend something.

Light client (not only mobile, but desktop too) should store block headers and TX data as needed instead of full blockchain.
While not keeping everything, it can still send/receive coins autonomously, without 3rd party services.

Take a good look at BitcoinSpinner (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=52674.0). It has exactly what you are asking for, including easy backup/restore using QR codes. The app has the private key, server does the heavy lifting of managing the block chain.

this is awesome

Can we donate to help finance the campaigns?

It may be a great mobile app, but this is certainly NOT what I'm talking about because it needs your server to operate.

yes!  and we can list you on the site as a supporter, if you want

http://lovebitcoins.org/join.html (http://lovebitcoins.org/join.html)

I think what is needed is something that provides the best of both worlds…easy to use and by default uses a service for the back end interface with the p2p network…but also having the option that people can easily setup their own back end and use it without needing the service.

I'm pretty sure NO pure wallet software will let you do that, because there's no way to hold dollars on your phone or any other device. As you know, they have to be held on account at a bank which makes you a money transmitter (lots of paperwork, users need to open accounts, go through ID verification etc). At least, not unless you count wallets from exchanges like Mt Gox, which still requires you to open an account. Also, if you're just going to say "don't use Bitcoin, it's unstable, use a wallet and then pay exchange fees whenever you transact" you're rather undermining the case for Bitcoin.

A pure Bitcoin wallet doesn't involve any money transmitters. You just have your own money in your pocket, like cash. So you can just install and go. It's actually easier than one connected to a bank because there's no account, as such.

I agree that FX risk is something that makes Bitcoin offputting for some users. Saying the solution is to not use the regular Bitcoin software unless you are an experienced FX trader is complete overkill though. It may just be that users who can't tolerate much FX risk need to wait a while before Bitcoin is useful to them.

on a side note, the site's missing G+ button. and also stats how many tweets, FB liked and +1'ed so we can see some relative numbers right on the site )

^this

Why do you say mobile clients shouldn't contain anything about the block chain? That's not apparent to me at all. I'd suggest just letting clients develop and see what works out. It boils down to a tradeoff between server availability/fee charging and performance, but I think in the long run the two approaches we see today will converge.

You are in control of the private key and can export/import as you desire. The client code is open source, and nothing prevents an alternate server from doing something similar. I could imagine a slew of such services. BTW, Electrum is another example of a similar service.

A mobile client that needs to download and verify the block chain will drain your battery, exhaust your bandwidth, and take a while before getting operational, as it needs to catch up with the block chain.

@DeepBit:

It is not reasonable for a normal user to store private keys. They will get hacked or fail at backup diligence, and lose their money either way. I strongly recommend that we do not encourage what will inevitably end in disaster. Sure, fraud in banks will appear, but it will be less of an issue than with fiat money, since nobody can bend the truth as much by inventing numbers on paper.



@Topic:

Haha, I love how "Computer Skills" goes up to "Command line hacker". ;D It's exactly what I see everywhere, I love the irony of that table. (Placing Visual C below is strange though. Okay, VS really sucks for C, but the debugger alone makes the order look like irrational console/emacs/vi/whatever fandom.) On a more serious note, I don't think it's right to assume perfect correlation between financial and technical understanding. I know people whom I would place "off the chart" in one of "knowledge of currencies" or "computer knowledge", but rather low in the other.

Also, I believe good design should never have to care about assumptions on the users' low-level tech skills, such as C hacking or webdesign. Ending up at such a question is a strong indicator that something went wrong. (And I don't like the idea of non-verifiable code when there's finance involved, but I know I'm fighting a lost cause.)

If I may, let me propose what groups I believe are around, why, and how big their numbers are if advertisement is done right:

• Casual user -- 10 M or more thinkable. (Yes, I think 1M is conservative)
  
  • Wants a small amount of Bitcoins for an arbitrary reason, and does not want to invest a lot of effort.
  • No assumptions on platform or technical skills are reasonable. Needs web interface to Bitcoin bank or similar, and to be guided in terms of security.
  • "A friend told me about the new bit coin..."
• Geek -- 100 000 or so people readily available as market
  
  • Likes Bitcoin just because it's Bitcoin.
  • Mostly wants to store Bitcoins himself. May get bored if there aren't enough ways to spend or earn some.
  • This group is already strongly represented, although many more would join in if given more incentive.
  • "Whoa, 1337 crypto, Satoshi-sama!"
• Small financial speculator -- 10 000 people maybe?
  
  • Is interested in Bitcoin because of the massive potential upside of new, disruptive technology.
  • Safe to assume knowledge on financial instruments.
  • Not safe to assume any technical knowledge.
  • Expects to be able to move five- to six-digit USD sums in or out of Bitcoin without trouble.
  • "What's the spread on call options at 3 USD/BTC?"
• Investors and project leaders -- little known about who and how many might be there.
  
  • Is an expert on at least one related topic.
  • Has an idea that needs support, either in terms of infrastructure or funding.
  • Is capable of coping with some issues, but will drop the project if problems pile up.
  • "How is the legal situation of Bitcoin in Norway?"

This kind of classification removes the coupling between financial interest and IT knowledge and instead sorts by intentions and existing groups/stereotypes. I find it easier and more efficient to classify people this way.



Now, what I would like everybody to keep in mind: the important groups are casual users and investors! Geeks and speculators is what we currently have, and these are easy to draw in anyways. But the real power lies in building a bridge between the ideas of the investors and the needs of a casual newcomer! This means it's very important to make direct Bitcoin usage available to even the casual users. We need a comfortable path between projects and their potential customers.

That said, thanks for doing this! I hope you will have a lot of users! :)

Edit: added some kinky example sentences for each stereotype. ;D

ok bubble added...searching around for G+.  not much space for it though, should I delete digg or reddit?

I think there are some assumptions in here which can be invalidated by technical progress:

• Nothing stops an app from catching up with the chain at nighttime, when it's plugged in to the wall for charging. When you open it during the day it only has to catch up on (probably) around 100 blocks, which is fast.
• In future Bitcoin nodes can be asked to filter blocks before sending them, ie, only sending CMerkleTx structures given a set of interesting script templates + possibly bloom filters. This isn't exactly a difficult protocol addition, but it does involve some coding and then waiting for people to upgrade. I described this protocol months ago on this forum.
• Currently processing the block chain on a mobile is slow because BitCoinJ (the only codebase I know which does this) does some things quite inefficiently. It can certainly be sped up a lot without protocol additions.

That said, there's no denying that with the state of various codebases today, what Jan says is true.

Thanks @Vandroiy

I agree people can be good financially but bad technically.  Those people probably should not use the official bitcoin client. 

Your ideas are good.  I will probably revise the table to discuss block chain and private keys better.  The average user has no need for the block chain, or to have any idea that it even exists.  leave that to the experts.

Wow the website is improving every time i refresh it, nice job!

Mostly I was talking about light client, not especially mobile one.
Light client is "light" not because it runs on the smartphone, but because it stores only block headers and relevant TXes instead of complete blockchain like existing full client.

It's not reasonable for a normal user to store cash. They can lost it, invest it, be robbed, and so on. Let them use credit cards and paypal instead, right - someone should be in control of user's money :)

Mybitcoin, btcex, bitomat, mtgox - sure, they aren't like "normal users", so they can't get hacked or fail at backup diligence. Oh, wait...
Currently possibly tens of thousands of bitcoins were stolen/lost by online wallets and exchanges.
But that's not the point. I just think that big enough portion of users should have all the control. I'm not against all online wallets, but I would prefer them not become the "normal" way to store funds.
Also it makes bitcoin easier target for governments and other enemies.

you have good points.  But look at the millions of people that DO use PayPal.  Let's get them to try our thing!  but it needs to look and feel like something they are familiar with.

@Bit-pay: You're welcome; I hope my thoughts help optimize the site! I added some examples and fixes in the list.

One more comment, which I just noticed on vocabulary: be careful with words such as "bad" or maybe even "beginner". Okay, the latter might encourage people who are not tech-savvy, but it must be used with caution. This may seem a minor detail, but the psychological impact of such subtleties should not be underestimated.

And yet another thing I noticed: the web design is fixed-width and sticks to the left side of the screen. This will leave massive blank space to the right on big screens. Scaling sites, such as this forum, have an advantage in that respect. A quick and common fix to this is to center the current 1024px design. Many pages use this method and just add neat graphics to the sides. https://www.casascius.com/ (https://www.casascius.com/) would be an example of such a page.



@DeepBit:
Comparing the required security knowledge between cash and Bitcoin is like comparing counting marbles to Fourier analysis. Do a test on normal people: give one group an item to keep safe, and transmit data to the other. Then look for ways to break their security. Do you seriously suggest that the difficulty will even compare? Who breaks into people's houses in the first place, and even then, good luck finding the valuables. But almost everyone either fails to backup or leaves ridiculously huge security holes open on their computers!

The average person will lose money if you put this to the test.

According to the internets, more than 2 100 000 people do this each year in USA.
This is not related to bitcoins, but I just can't leave the "Who breaks into people's houses in the first place" part unanswered :)

Why they wouldn't lose their online wallet password/key then ?

A lot of homes may be broken into, but does this exceed the amount of infections of computers? I care a lot for my security, yet it has been breached three times already. The house I live in, though, has never been broken into. I doubt this is a rare and exceptional case.

They may lose their wallet password, but the provider can then go the usual recovery way and silently watch whether nobody else claims to be the owner (or the owner's personal information is known), then refund. On hacked accounts, withdraw limits and sanity checks help prevent disaster. But there is no helping someone whose private keys for BTC have leaked.

I know the "personal identity" thing is not a geek's preferred way, but the average person actually likes this. Sure, everybody should be free to store the coins himself, but I wouldn't try to force it onto people.

Jan - I have added Bitcoin Spinner to the wallet list!  Since it deals with bitcoins only, its still an advanced wallet (like instawallet)  But I will start recommending it.  Good idea on the backup/restore!

Great!

I would argue that it should go in the Intermediate section rather than Advanced. It is so simple that anyone who knows how to scan a QR code can use it. You can Send/Receive, Backup/Restore. There is no pin/password, email or other kind of registration. Install and you are good to go right away. It's even simpler than the MtGox Mobile, which is in the Intermediate section.

I guess I don't understand why you would regard a simple Bitcoin wallet that deals with Bitcoin only as an advanced Bitcoin application.

By the way its "BitcoinSpinner" and not "Bitcoin Spinner"

I'm still trying to define the categories.  I was thinking that anything Bitcoin-only would subject the user to currency volatility.  so instawallet and BitcoinSpinner, while simple to use, would expose the user to 100% volatility.  At least with MtGox you can store a USD balance, to preserve your purchasing power.  I was thinking along the lines of currency risk, not complexity of the app.

Cool project!


I have also started to think that this will be necessary for the foreseeable future: Convenient tools that allow to _transfer_ using Bitcoins, but to _store_ using fiat (which requires a third party). Bitcoin's volatility isn't going to decrease anytime soon. For that we need a lot of volume, but as soon as we have that, it will probably just ignite Bitcoin bubble #2. So I don't see it calming down anytime soon.

The whole "lower fees for customers" argument is pretty meaningless, if you keep things in Bitcoin. What does the 0.0005 BTC transaction fee help you, if a 10% price swing between buying Bitcoins and using them makes your cappuccino much more expensive?

So we need to engineer around it: Keep things in fiat and exchange for Bitcoin just in the moment you pay. The receiving side will probably do the same thing and convert back to fiat. Bitcoin is then just a neutral mechanism to exchange money digitally. I am a little worried about the overhead cost though. To make this feasible we need efficient exchanges that have both low fees and low spread.

I played around a little bit with Mt.Gox to see what the typical total cost would be if you pick a random time and want to buy Bitcoins at the current exchange rate. So I compared a "lossless" conversion at the current exchange rate to what you would actually get if you take Mt.Gox's fees and the spread into account. Mt.Gox's fee is 0.6% (if you don't have any discounts) and the spread usually adds another 0.25% to 1%. So let's go with 1.5%. Keep in mind though, that you probably have to do this on both sides of the transaction: Customer with USD -> Bitcoin -> Bitcoin transfer -> Bitcoin -> Merchant with USD. You are already at 3% there - not a lot of room to work with. Hopefully this can be improved by more competition between exchanges (lower fees) and more day traders (lower spread) over time.

Jan,  the problem is the Buyer is always paying this 1.5% fee anyway to pay with bitcoins.  He can put $100 into gox, but he will pay the same percentage whether he buys all at once, or in small increments as he needs them.  the cost to the buyer is the same.  By keeping FIAT, the buyer at least maintains his purchasing power.  

I should add that https://intersango.com (https://intersango.com) charges NO fees to buy or sell.  ACH and SEPA are also free for deposits and withdrawals.

This will get better as the spreads tighten and volume improves.  One thing that is badly needed is a consolidated Level II market depth, to put all the exchanges into one table, and route the order to get the best price.

1) If such online wallet can provide password/key recovery then it can control user's bitcoins. Those bitcoins may be stolen if site is hacked.
2) Also this implies that site can do fractional reserve banking, which is not funny.

Here is a short video of Max Keiser, announcing his support for our initiative.  The full, professional video will be up soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFSbj-MidPw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFSbj-MidPw)

It was my impression that Bitcoin, the software, technology, or network had a capital B, while bitcoins, the units of exchange, had a lowercase B just like dollars or euros.

Promoting bitcoin meets paypal-wallet services. Yes. Promoting bitcoin itself. Not really.

  >:(

Millions of people use PayPal.  Let's get them to try our thing.

I've only dabbled with PayPal a while ago - but as I see it, for the average consumer, Bitcoin can't compete on Fees yet.
(paypal you pay each transaction, but getting your money into paypal is cheap..  
whereas bitcoin you easily pay 5% or more depending on where you are to get your money into it in the first place)

Also - I hear paypal allows person to person payments.

So..unless they sell things for bitcoins or earn in bitcoins, they're effectively paying more to use bitcoins than they would using PayPal - so what exactly is the angle here that will sell the idea of Bitcoin to the average person?  

That they can send amounts equivalent to a few cents?
The 'political' aspects of avoiding banks or corporations which could freeze your money? (A valid concern - but 'occupy' crowd aside, it's probably not high on the agenda of most people)


edit: It rather seems to me that this is the 'elephant in the room' when it comes to Bitcoin. It's nice and all as far as easy setup for merchants & people who want to set up donations - but the *effective* Fees when you consider getting it in and out of your local currency are very high with Bitcoin.   
Sure -if you do a very large deposit via wire-transfer etc, the fee becomes a small percentage - but then you're holding a large amount of BTC and can get screwed by the volatility.

PayPal's fee structure. (https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/?cmd=_display-fees-outside)

PayPal charges fees for every transaction except deposits into your PayPal account and some withdrawals.

Sending money to anyone via PayPal incurs a fee, the only question is who pays it.

But if I lose 5% for my initial Bitcoin purchase (I've paid more than that in the past by the way!) - what's the difference between being hit up front like that, or getting free initial deposit with PayPal and then hit with a fee for every purchase?  Actually.. the difference is you come out ahead with paypal because it's less than 5% right?

I also pay another 5% or more if I want to get my Bitcoins out.

edit: Note, I'm a bitcoin supporter - but let's be honest about it's advantages and not bullshit about it's weaknesses. I'm not saying Bitcoin won't have an advantage over paypal down the track - I just don't see it right now in terms of cost, so I'm wondering why the average consumer will see it.

You could use an exchange called https://intersango.com (https://intersango.com) which has zero fees to buy or sell.  and deposits and withdrawals are also free, unless its a wire transfer.  there is no need to pay 5% in or out.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

If you don't want to pay a 5% fee to use bitcoins, find another method of obtaining them.

If that's the case for a large slice of users then great - but I don't believe that's the case here in Australia.
I'll pay $15 if I use cryptoxchange, Mtgox only has a wire option at the moment - so that'll hit me with $22, how would I get money from Aus into intersango? Wire again I suspect.
(By the way - now that there are quite a few exchanges - I strongly recommend exchanges make it obvious how deposits/withdrawals work for various countries *before* requiring register/sign in. Most people are not willing to sign up to them all in order to compare deposit options and fees)

Judging by many of the forum posts about hurdles getting money to exchanges, I strongly suspect free deposits are not going to be the case for the majority of people either.

Once free deposits or face-to-face bitcoin exchanges are commonplace - sure, the advantage will shift to Bitcoin.. but can we really push it with a straight face as an alternative for most PayPal users right now?   (Even with the vastly smaller number of places you can use bitcoin for purchases compared to bitcoin this is an uphill sell)

Looks like the cheapest intersango option for Australians would be wire in Eur, losing some small fee on exchange, plus wire fee (in my case $22) + 2.56EUR intersango charge.

edit: Americans cop a $15USD wire fee... so we're back to requiring all these other intermediaries like dwolla, paxum.  Not exactly simple compared to paypal.

What are these other methods that these millions of PayPal users are going to find?

Thank you for your contribution to the bitcoin community.

+1 
I love where they're trying to head with this - I'm just wary of touting it as a replacement for PayPal at this stage.

In many countries, it is.  I think the $15 fee from Crypto is for wire transfers.  Ask them about cash bank deposits.  I can't imagine them charging $15 if you bring $100 to a bank teller to deposit into their account.

If it doesn't apply to cash bank deposits - they've done a terrible job at explaining this on their site.

I've tried using their online support to ask about this fee, which included entering my email address - but I got no response.
I'm willing to put this down to teething problems.. but so far it's not looking like a cheap option.


It would be interesting to see a survey of what people in the bitcoin community do pay on average for depositing funds into Bitcoin exchanges.  I'm skeptical that anywhere near a majority are getting it less than around 5% by the time they use one intermediary or another.

Like the site, will be sending interested people there instead of sending them a bunch of links.  I didn't see Flexcoin on there, are they not an online wallet?  I use the client only so I don't know where to send new people.

hmmm, I'm not sure where to put flexcoin.  they aren't really used as a wallet because they charge you for every withdrawal.  It's more for cold storage.  I don't know if the new PayPal type users are ready for that yet.

Even if you don't pay an explicit fee, there is a large implicit fee (transaction cost) due to the huge bid-ask spread. Bitcoin will not be competitive with paypal in the near future (next three years at least).
Your business model is not credible.

Bitcoin has some unique advantages:
1) Quick, irreversible trades at any distance
2) Consumer Privacy when selling services and digital goods at a distance.
3) Low fees for micropayments
4) Facilitation of trade in illicit goods (gambling, drugs)

The correct strategy is to develop businesses around these competitive niche(s). Once these are developed, bitcoin's use can be extended into mainstream areas.

Instead of highlighting bitcoin's advantages, you plan to slingshot bitcoin into the mainstream consumer payments arena directly. Why do you think that has any chance of succeeding?

Anyways, I'll stop hijacking your thread with unwanted (and unheeded) criticism. Best of luck with your endeavors.

No mention of remittance on the website?

Remittance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance) is a massive money transfer business here in Canada and the United States. Millions of immigrants who speak poor english walk into a remittance shop once a week to pay ridiculous fees to transfer money to their loved ones back home.

If you could target them, and somehow get across that the fees were much lower...!!!

YES!!  We have that in the US also.  Western Union.  I will add it to the site, as these are perfect groups to target.

they are only a target group if you can gurantee low fees and fast transactions for deposit/withdrawal in both countries. therefore, the best approach would be to target one specific country pair at first, make sure the currency conversion and money transaction is vastly superior to the current popular solution and try to replace it completly within that specific immigrant community. immigrants are often highly connected among each other, so once you set up and introduce your solution, it might spread on its own if its really that good.

Can you explain this?

once we get 50 members we will form a Chamber of Commerce type business model, with Directors to plan the marketing roadmap.  We are quite a ways away from that though.

Ouch! Western Union???

Steer very clear of that on anything that you are doing to promote bitcoin. Western Union screams scam, thanks to the enterprising lads in Nigeria at the internet cafes, who use it as their preferred remittance source for ill-gotten gains. Even mentioning WU will create all kinds of negative press both with users (the more savvy greens, and all of the blues) and with media and the authorities.

Please don't add the taint of a criminal facilitator to this world, it is exactly the kind of message we need to avoid.

My last scam was through Western Union I fell for it :(  lost $2,900 that I would love to have back ugghh....

Western Union goes well beyond 'scams' in terms of market penetration.

Perhaps it would be equally accurate to blame the USD (or whatever currency is the scam du jour) or bank wire transfers.

Or perhaps the criminal on the other end of the transaction?  People use Western Union all the time to send money to their friends and relatives.  and it's very expensive.

Perhaps remove the "become a member" button from the top menu and add it to the bottom About us etc. options, or place it somewhere in the member listing page. I don't think it's relevant to most visitors.

Good idea, this is changed on the site now.

It's evolving, yay! :)

I like how this project will reward its makers through Bitcoin businesses paying to get linked.

Are there any traffic stats directly from the site, to see whether it's working? Might also be interesting to analyze just what visitors click.

we do have site stats installed.  In the first day, we have had 544 visits from 49 countries.  As we get this rolled out we can publish the stats, yes.

It seems that some similar-sounding domain names have already been parked.

lovebitcoin.com
lovebitcoin.org
lovebitcoins.com

It took me several attempts before I ended up on the real page :(

Yes, that is correct. Tony, is there a reason you're using "Bitcoins" everywhere instead of "Bitcoin"?

Why use Bitcoin: "for Satoshi". Wait Wut?

Where is expert level 5, "comfortable with optimizing cryptographic hashing algorithms in 3D vector space in highly parallel ASIC design"....?

Sounds similar to http://we.lovebitco.in/, a natural choice for a xxxx.lovebitco.in name, available on afraid.org for your own subdomain. I think I know who created that domain now...

No reason, just force of habit of typing it B I guess.  I can update the site to how it should be used.

Note that in most places in the site the more appropriate term is "Bitcoin", the system, rather than "bitcoins", the unit.

I sent a donation in and have been sending people to the site. The responses have been good. Would you consider adding Flexcoin (w/ fee disclaimer) and Multibit to the wallet chart?

Yes I have Multibit already on my list to investigate.  Flexcoin is a little different because its more for cold storage and not a wallet, at least that's my impression?  If either one of those guys builds a mobile client I would be much more inclined to feature them.

why?

Because your leather wallet is a portable item you carry everywhere in your pocket.  Your digital wallet should offer the same convenience. 

Agreed.


It's not a native client, but the webpage is cleaner than Instawallet (though I do like not having to login with Instawallet).  You have the option of sending all or some of your BTC to cold storage, the rest is available for transactions like any other e-wallet.

i had hoped for an argument, not a bad analogy  :-\
imho focusing on mobile devices and especially local sales with QR-codes is pretty much a guarantee for failure. you need something like a dozen globally available, popular shops or services for bitcoin to really catch on or alternatively thousands or maybe even millions of local businesses. plus PCs and laptops are still extremly popular and will remain so, especially among the more tech-savvy crowd. you cant play games, program or do any other serious computer-related work on a phone. for the short and medium term, this will be your audience. i hope you dont try step 5 before step 3 and 4.

besides that, mobile phones are currently a security nightmare. bitcoin is a security nightmare by design. i think both have to improve before this explosive combination can really work.

I respectfully, and completely, disagree.  Mobile phones, and getting a smoothly working client running on them, should be a huge priority.  Smartphones are being carried around more and more, and not having a Bitcoin client available for them to use is cutting off a large crowd of people from using it.

I would have to respectfully disagree as well.  NFC payment systems like google wallet are not going away, why should Bitcoin not jump in.  And the more I see stories like this http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/12/hackers-hit-supermarket-self-checkout-lanes-steal-money-from-shoppers.ars (http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/12/hackers-hit-supermarket-self-checkout-lanes-steal-money-from-shoppers.ars) the more I wish I could just pay with bitcoins at the store with my phone and never reveal account or identity information.  The current system is a security nightmare, Bitcoin offers some advantages and should promote that fact.

regular computers are still the majority. how many people in western countries have smartphones but no computer? how many use their phone instead of their computer for online shopping? how many buy digital goods and services on phones? file download services, movies, porn, gambling, gametime, all of these make more sense for the big, clunky devices.
i dont say ignore the smartphone market completely. but bitcoins (first) breakthough wont happen there.

Apple, Google, and Facebook are not spending millions of dollars on mobile wallets for no reason. we have a product today and they do not. Read my OP.  let's build ourselves as much of a lead in the "digital wallet" space while we have no competition.  If I had a team of developers at my disposal right now I would put all hands on deck for mobile wallets and nothing else.

A big rise of Bitcoin price is needed.

fornit I think you just described the complete opposite of me and the people I introduce to Bitcoin.  I shop, download, and spend much more time on my phone than on my computer - and people like me are the ones I send to the site.  Having a resource like LoveBitcoins.org focused on mobile payment solutions is perfect.  People stuck in a chair staring at a monitor can be directed to bitcoin.org.  I would like to see the Apple and Android rows filled with options on that chart.

BTW where is Blackberry in all this?  If their apps aren't open to developers, don't the ewallets still work?  Can something be added for them?

EDIT: I don't actually send people there....

I don't think blackberry or windows mobile are worth spending development time on. But I wouldn't stop someone who wants to.  It's a bad ROI.

I think you and I are on the same page. I spend 1-3 hours a day at a computer. And about 10-12 hours a day with my phone.  I download music and games straight to my iPhone. The only thing I really use a computer for is Photoshop editing and some HTML design.  when I shop online, it's much easier to grab my phone and scan a QR code on the screen than it is to open up a program, wait for a blockchain update, and copy and paste. that's just painful.

your strategy seems surprisingly sound - for a company with several hundert million customers + infinite money supply...
a currency needs an ecosystem. google etc. have half of that and has the money to create the other half from scratch. they can create applications, products and demand all at the same time. you have to pick a niche where at least some of that already exists and expand from there.




the flaw in your logic is that you are already here.
sell to potential customers, not to yourself.


i did. there are 1 billion iphone users and 1 million windows users, all of which have the computer knowledge of a visual c programmer and would use bitcoin solely for the technology.
obviously, you live in a parallel universe.

An alternative would be a standardized method to trade private keys.

For instance, if I don't have a smart-phone, I may print off a few bitcoin notes on my home printer.  They will have an exposed public and private key.  When I go to a store, I simply hand the cashier a bitcoin note with enough coin on it to cover my purchase.  The cashier asks me how I want my change, and I would ask for a printed key.  The receipt would print up a pub/priv keypair with the change loaded on it.  I could then take this and use it at the next place I shop.

Along the same line would be a small device that stores public/private key pairs.  You press a button and a public key is displayed.  Press another button, enter a pin, and the corresponding private key is displayed.  Hit the clear button, enter pin, and a new keypair is generated.  You could then simply have this small device that holds keypairs, and expose the private key for the cashier to scan when you make a purchase.

The downside to this is that it would not allow the individual to send bitcoin.  It would just be a dumb device that displays public/private key pairs, so it would be useless at bitcoin vending machines, parking meters, gas pumps, etc...

edit:  I guess it wouldn't be useless if those devices allowed the users the option to enter a private key.

Way to go fornit.

+1

My motto is simple. Go Big or Go Home.  With the talent we have in the bitcoin community we can build more innovative products than a mega corporation like google.  It doesn't take ten million dollars.  It just takes good ideas and solid execution.  The road is wide open right now while we have no competition.  Let's take it. 

You have enthusiasm, slogans, and a motto. But what about a strategy? Is there a plausible scenario in which your plan leads to a successful outcome? Care to outline how a successful outcome might play out?

I start by saying good work. I really like Max Keiser, so that is a big plus as well.

But the problem is this, if 1 million users show interest for Bitcoin, the high inflation environment will very quickly put them off. Why? Because the miners (and not the fiat buyers)  are in total control right now with the high inflation that Bitcoin have. Bitcoin will get big, but not right now, it is to early, when we hit the 25 BTC/day inflation (around 10 % annual inflation) the it will get much more interesting when the fiat buyers are pretty much in control. But that is in one year, you guys are in a hurry. If this get big 2012 it will end as it did last time and the questions is if Bitcoin will then get a third chance. As I see it, this should start earliest in the summer of 2012. This is my point of view.

Also, in five years time, then this will get a lot more interesting, with the very low inflation rates, then miners have very little power and the fiat buyers almost 100 % control. The upside at that time are very very big, but that is if everything plays out well until then.

May I suggest a specific target market: remittance (ie immigrant workers sending money home).
In Europe thats usually Polish, Turks, Moroccans,  and some other Northern Africans, and to a lesser degree, Nigerian, Thai, Filipinos. In the US I imagine its mostly Mexican.
This is a huge market. Over $400 billion according to wikipedia:
According to World Bank estimates, remittances totaled US$414 billion in 2009, of which US$316 billion went to developing countries that involved 192 million migrant workers.[2] For some individual recipient countries, remittances can be as high as a third of their GDP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance

Many of bitcoins feature are a perfect match for it.

Although in some of the recipient countries it might be hard to convert bitcoins in to cash. I think this is actually an opportunity for business to help facilitate this in specific countries (say for instance Turkey or Mexico) and offer a "bitcoin based wire transfer service" that gets cash to even unconnected and PC illiterate locals in those developing countries.

edit: just stumbled upon this:
http://technology.cgap.org/2011/02/18/how-do-migrant-workers-move-money-in-india/

Gives you an idea how much those people pay in costs and what services they currently use.

Exactly.  Remittance is prominently mentioned on the site and in the updated presentation.  The video will be remade when we get time and money.  Bitcoin needs local bitcoin-to-cash dealers in Mexico, India, and the other places you mentioned.  Its a perfect business for a local merchant of any kind.  Get em started!

+1

Behind on keeping up on this thread, but I love this post.

i didnt say go small. i consider finding a niche only a first step and expect exponential growth from there.
remmitance for example might turn out to be a profitable business, but i think wont ignite exponential growth for bitcoin as a whole. it totally doesnt fit your go big philosophy.
my approach would be to find ways to distribute bitcoins within an online community and offer services specific to that target group.

that way, you have people who are inclined to spend or keep their bitcoins, not directly trade it back to another currency. you can then expand on both sides, find more shops to cater to that group or get groups with similiar customer behavior on board. once you have a big enough community for shops to consider it an oppurtunity and enough shops for people to rather spend small amounts of bitcoins then to go through the hassle of trading them, its downhill from there. its like getting toads to australia. as soon as you get the first few toads in a fitting enviroment they spread like a plague. you however try to build a boat for every toad in the americas.

i agree they are easy to approach, but what can you offer them?
you lack the enviroment. you need ways for them to spend their money. a single shop in new york wont cut it. you have to focus on online shops. and those are equally accessible with a pc or laptop. so why ignore them?

For remittance, bitcoin is not competitive with international wire transfer in terms of trust, speed, cost, and convenience.

To change this, at minimum there need to be brick and mortar locations for bitcoin/fiat exchange. I am not aware of any city pair that has these.

Wait until bitcoin can deliver a remittance service before advertising one to users.

Bitcoin is a serviceable platform for online gaming and international transfer of digital goods. Why not advertise these angles instead?

I would encourage anyone that already has an import/export business to add bitcoin exchange in both cities. We will absolutely promote this to millions of people.  I will make a featured listing on our site for each city pair.  It will save HUGE fees over western union.

This is great. Wait to do the promotion until you have at least one featured city pair with physical exchange addresses and opening hours. Make sure bitcoin can deliver on whatever is advertised.

Gary Rowe and I have signed up 'MultiBit' as a personal member on LoveBitcoins.org.

I have also added onto the multibit.org website:
1) The fullsize LoveBitcoins.org logo as a link on our FAQ page.
2) a 2/3rds size LoveBitcoins.org logo on our landing page (index.html).

Thank you Jim!  When I return home in a few days I will update the site. 

In addition to Jim's comments, an upcoming release of MultiBit is expected to have a Hindi translation in place. While this is not expected to be the most common selection for users in India (most will speak English well) it demonstrates our commitment to making Bitcoin a truly global currency. Anyone wishing to contribute their time to add another language need only PM either myself or Jim. Typically translation would take about an evening for a fluent speaker.

To that end it may be useful for LoveBitcoins to offer alternative voice-overs/translations to the standard video. I think the video is great (and even my Mum was impressed so well done) but to a European ear the American accent can sound like a "hard sell" rather than a soft introduction.

I also think that we need to widely publish a recommended free and open source exchange application with clear instructions regarding how to set it up in a range of environments (e.g. Amazon cloud, Rackspace, JustHost etc).

gary - translations for the site and presentation are already underway :)

also - I updated the website with the names of 4 new donors!  Thanks guys for your support!

Site down. Changes coming??

Our hosting provider http://www.btcvps.net is having issues. :(

We have updated the site to list our newest supporters. Thanks guys!

http://lovebitcoins.org

Your site looks very nice! Good luck!

Also. Congrats your 250th post. Sr. Member

I like how your targeting new markets. I think all the Alpaca sock wearing crypto-anarchists have heard of bitcoin by now. 

We have given a much-needed facelift to the LoveBitcoins website - check it out!

http://lovebitcoins.org (http://lovebitcoins.org)

We will be using this site as a quick-conversion site to help people get started.  The ideal case is if you are talking to someone about bitcoin, you've already covered the basics, and they are ready to get started.  This is a simple place you can send them to for finding different wallets, exchanges, and some basic information.

Much nicer! Well done!

Looks good. Great work :)

One thing I have to mention and I think this has been mentioned before, is that the Bitcoin video needs a new voice over. Alison is great but her voice is not the best for this kind of work. Hopefully you'll work on this.

Thanks guys.  Yes we can have this re-done in a recording studio with a better actor.  It's on our to-do list!