Bitcoin Forum

Is it possible that bitcoin isn't as bullish as we all expected it to be because of the crypto tax that every price gains is likely to invite as a form of capital gains? Lets the math, what is the possibility of the whales and all parties that are affected by the capital gains which will attract this tax in having a hand to control(manipulate) price just so they stay below the tax threshold and buy time to take out their profits?

I don't think there's a tax system where people pay more tax on a higher gain without taking more pay for themselves too... I think this has been a common confusion for a lot of people though but there is a chance that if the gain is split over a few years then less tax might be paid (but that wouldn't be by whales, that'd be by the mases of retail).

I would think it would be the opposite. If I have to worry about taxes if I sell I am going to keep sitting on my BTC I would think most other people are the same. If you don't need to sell and your are worried about the tax burden, you will wait till 'later' to sell it and deal with it. Most people buying / selling / trading as an investment see the taxes as just part of the cost of doing business so it does not matter to them.

Just my opinion.

-Dave

 Math? What math? I don't think it is possible to calculate how it is going to affect crypto. We can only speculate about it.

Taxes didn't stop stocks from going to the moon, what makes you think it will stop crypto? It will surely draw some attention from crypto but we can't know how big the impact is going to be. There are some people that like crypto because it was unregulated markets and those people will probably leave.

This may be a problem for others, but tax issues in my country is not very well checked, because of lack of organization and arrangements from my country so what we face is a non acceptance of exchange to bank crypto-currency transaction, but if I was paying my taxes with out cheating the government on my job, be it two or three, and I saw it as given to the government for further development then I would not stop adopting Bitcoin because of it.

Define Moon. It seems to me when people always talk about moon, it's some infinite figure  ;D

We have had Bitcoin go all the way from less than 1 USD to 60,000 USD today and you still say something called tax is holding back Bitcoin?
Most Countries around the world probably still don't have a proper taxation plan for gains made from crypto. Take an example of traders from countries like Venezuela?

I dont see this way because tax has nothing to do with this because adoption hasnt really stopped nor slowed down and this is mainly an issue of regulation and of course taxation would be automatically attached to it which is inevitable i would say and also whales do knows on how to handle of things in regarding on this one.It cant really be denied somehow that these regulations becomes tighter do really makes the situation harder but
it doesnt mean that it could be impossible.We could still make out some cashout without really having any problems on various condition or circumstances but if its something which is really
needed or mandatory then you wouldnt really have any choice.

Tax is a thing that you have to accept in real life. You can not live in a nation which has law, regulation and taxation and wish that you won't be taxed. Don't try to do it illegally.

It is fair enough if in other industries like traditional finance, manufactures, etc. everyone are taxed and you are taxed in the same as a crypto investor.

The problem would be whether the margin of taxation in crypto is the same as in stock or other traditional finance or lower or higher.

Sum up, I don't think taxation will be barriers for Bitcoin or crypto, never.

I mean, taxes have always been a hindrance with anything money related; but it applies not only to bitcoin but for most things — you could say the same for investing in stocks, starting a business, receiving your wages as an employee, etc. It's not like it's only exclusive to bitcoin lol.

I don't think so. Bitcoin will be bullish despite all the tax policies in different countries of the world. The thing that makes Bitcoin bullish, other than itself, is that fiat is in an ill state. So regardless of the tax imposed on Bitcoin, it remains attractive not just to investors but also to those who wish to keep with wealth intact over time despite all the uncontrollable inflation and the regular devaluation of money. Also capital gains tax will only make Bitcoin owners keep their Bitcoin rather than sell them. That's bullish.

It seems like they have their own definition as well. anyway, they think the moon is when the price is achieving ATH day after day non-stop. Well! people have their own perspective in life but this one is ridiculous. I mean, what more they can ask for the price this year? isn't it enough for them for the bitcoin price to reach a massive ATH this year? there will always be next year and there's a high tendency on seeing another ATH again.

Yeah, I believe like most of the opinions expressed so far in the thread that taxes are not a determining factor.

I understand that the OP is referring to Bitcoin not having just taken off. We are at the end of the year, and, according to all the predictive models we have seen, Bitcoin should be going higher. Recall that some models were giving $300k-$500k as ATH for year end.

So no, if Bitcoin hasn't gone to the moon it hasn't been because of taxes, as taxes were already present in previous years when it gave excellent returns. If we end the year below $100k, other explanations will have to be sought.

The worst thing that the government would do is taxing our unrealized gains. It’s gonna be miserable when that happens, especially if the market is crashing. Right here in the Philippines, they’re just taxing income that is realized (crypto to fiat) and I’m happy for that right now.

The thing is even you live in countries with very high taxation, the tax wouldn't took up all your gain/income it just some % of your gains/incomes. Let's say you bought Bitcoin when the price still $10,000/each, now the price is $60,000/each. The tax is 20% of unrealized gain, so $50,000 x 20% = $10,000 you still profit $40,000. If Bitcoin going to the moon and hit $1,000,000 the tax is $990,000 x 20% = $198,000 but your profit is $801,000!

Why should the whale scared of the tax if Bitcoin going to the moon then?

a tax system that is truly crypto-friendly is still not fully realized. because the government doesn't know who is fully using crypto.
If the tax charged to you is income tax that has been realized in fiat currency, then it is not included in the crypto user tax.
Some countries are starting to study the imposition of taxes on crypto because of the increasing number of crypto users and are in demand at this time.

I don't think so.. And how they can apply tax for crypto is my question as well, wherein we all knows that until this day most of the people here in space are anonymous. So how is that possible to be honest is that trough exchanges or not? I'm very confused. Lol ?  Perhaps its possible only unless of you're exposed in public and a lot of people knows that your making more money with crypto.. Like what's happening right now to some youtuber in the PH wherein some of them were paying tax because of their income from yt.. So i was wondering how they can apply it for crypto enthusiast wherein most are anonymous..  ;D

Bitcoin is not even recognized as an asset in majority of the countries except a handful few. So I am not sure where you have seen such tax system available! If such taxation is applicable everywhere in the world, then it would have an impact for sure. But since such system is not available pretty much anywhere, there's no question of holding back bitcoin.

But, the way bitcoin is progressing, many countries are indeed thinking about bringing a framework around cryptocurrencies. So a taxation system will be introduced sooner than later which is a net positive for the community.

Tax is normal, and capital gains tax is only paid when you sell the asset, so if you keep holding bitcoin until you are satisfied with the price, you will be able to sell it at a good profit with less deduction (taxes). We cannot evade taxes anymore, it's part of the government system and we are all required to pay for it regardless of how much profit we make, so these holders are making sure they make a lot of profit before they sell it.

For some, they are smart enough to do the right accounting to minimize the taxes, maybe if you are holding a lot and you want to minimize in paying a taxes, seek for help from an accountant, they know for sure how to make it possible.

Since taxes are only charged when you actually sell the assets, I'd say it should have very little to no effect on the price of bitcoin price overall. Crypto taxes won't be going away anytime soon so it's just best to overlook it and see it as a responsibility. That way, you won't over think it enough to feel you can't do well in crypto or you are a bitcoin investor.

Imposing taxes on crypto gains is part of regulation and it adds validity or legitimacy to this market somehow. At least that's how I perceive doubters would think since they see the Government is not seizing or banning them. I think that's also the case with some of the institutional investors.

I don't think that there's relation of taxes and bitcoin's bullish form. It's a different matter and we usually are just relating every move of bitcoin to the market.
So if there's something that's holding back from bitcoin then it's us, we panic sell, we add pressure to the market and that's making others do the same as well.
It is the force that we're having and whatever the whales do, it's the bigger contribution that holds bitcoin's price.

What tax? In my country, there is no tax for holding Bitcoin. So, how can tax influence Bitcoin price?
Anyway, as far as I know, Bitcoin price cannot be fully controlled by any party. Bitcoin price is always increasing as far as there will be positive news about Bitcoin's future. At the end of the day, Bitcoin still can go to the moon if it is always supported to soar by any parties in crypto world.

The fact that we are still anonymous, there is still a way to deny the total amount of our crypto holding and only we could pay taxes based on what we declare on the paper but nobody from the government ask for it. Are they?

As long as our funds keep on the crypto market we no longer pay any taxes but somehow, we can't just leave it there forever, we usually converted it to fiat money leading us to pay taxes as mandated by the law. But, this never had an impact on the market and stopped Bitcoin from going to the moon. It moves depending on the market demand, not because of taxes coz that only apply to fiat money.

It doesn't, but personally it holds someone's holding back, if you'll cash out your holdings, there's a fee in order to compensate for tax whenever you cashout or make a transaction, it's annoying and I hate how some of these exchanges use up a high cashout fee, personally, it holds us back but Bitcoin can still go to the moon, regardless of tax.

It's true that taxes have nothing to do with the movement of Bitcoin, After all, not all countries impose taxes on income earned from Bitcoin.
So I don't agree that taxes are the reason why Bitcoin prices don't pump, because Bitcoin price movements are based on supply and demand.
If more and more people buy Bitcoin, then the price of Bitcoin will continue to rise. Why is the price of Bitcoin holding back from rising right now,
because there are still more investors selling Bitcoin than buying Bitcoin. Therefore we need good news, to trigger FOMO, so that Bitcoin can go
to the moon. At least for now what we can do is be patient holding Bitcoin until the Bitcoin price recovers again, and don't panic if we see
Bitcoin's performance declining.

We can not deny the crypto tax that will come anytime depending on each government but I think bitcoin will have a bullish time many times in the future and I think bitcoin can get another bullish in a short time this year. The whales will still play on the market while they will withdraw their profit anytime and they will not have a mind if they need to pay tax. We do not have to worry about the tax because the government applies a high tax fee to the crypto user. After all, if they do that, they will face the people who will object to their regulation.

The bitcoin market is clearly going with supply and demand and there's really nothing to do with taxes. But if the taxes are going to make that much demand.
Maybe we can agree to those that are saying that it is the taxes that are making and helping bitcoin's price to pump and not holding back.

Indeed, there is currently no public summary of the tax on bitcoin and the government also seems to refuse to comment on it, once without such specific paperwork and legal work, the inhabitants of bitcoin will still live in autonomy, this means that the value of bitcoin can still go from moon to moon of another world and each moon it approaches, a lot of members will join to increase fuel and speed of the route. Taxes are not enough to block the space of bitcoin, to blockade will need to conduct and cooperate from high-level to low-level apparatus, this is a highly fictitious story

Cryptocurrency is always strange, it is not possible to say with certainty what happens here. But I also agree with you, the tax has prevented Bitcoin from going to the moon. The crypto market is an unregulated market which is why it is so popular. I think this tax will have a negative effect on cryptocurrency.

positive or negative impact on crypto depends on how the regulation is given to cryptocurrencies. The application of taxes to crypto also requires some research to determine who is taxed and what percentage of the tax must be paid. The more crypto-documented, of course, the more complex the problems that will be faced. the government also compensates so that they can get new coffers from every crypto user.

What is the price you think that would convince yourself that bitcoin is already on the moon? That's the first thing you have to determine because in the past people are already saying that bitcoin has already gone to the moon and yet we are still expecting the same now.

 The bull run is here, there's no price limit as it could go beyond our expectation, but as an investor, we should be smart and be more realistic with our goal so we can do a timely action to sell for profit, otherwise, we will miss the opportunity.

The possibility of whale manipulating the market just so that they don't go above their tax threshold is something I don't buy. From my view, with this argument business owners will never grow their business to stay under the tax bracket, investors will never maximise their investing potential and so on.

There are always ways to reduce these burdens, it is not a matter of keeping something low level on the contrary...

adoption of btc hasn't stopped or slowed down and for regulatory and tax issues it's a perfect match which will automatically attach to it which is unavoidable so there's no denying that these regulations getting stricter do make the situation more difficult, but
sometimes I think,  where do they calculate the income tax from crypto? what we know is that crypto prices sometimes go up sometimes down, do they only count when the bitcoin price has a high price without thinking about the loss when the bitcoin dump

I agree with you how the government will calculate the value that must be paid from bitcoin / crypto income, maybe the percentage that has been set by the government from the profits or assets collected from all transactions and how they look for the history of these transactions because as a trader it is impossible to stay in one market and wallet