Bitcoin Forum

Maybe a dumb question, but why should I display irreversibility as an advantage? I recently made a transaction using bitcoin and waited for long time to receive what I purchased. So long that I thought I got scammed.

How can I, as a customer, be protected my malicious sellers? I can't really use an escrow service every time, I need to ensure the seller will be discouraged to steal my money with a smarter, cheaper and more comfortable way. For instance, PayPal transactions are reversible within a time frame of 6 months. I could address them.

How can the police confirm I've got scammed and not lied? It's definitely harder than with cash if the seller knows how things work.

Because that's the way it was setup? On the other side there are a lot of merchants that took care of the customer and said / delivered what they said they were going to do and faced a CC chargeback or bounced check.

If you hand me cash and I don't do what I said I was going to do / deliver what I said I was going to deliver. How is that any different?
BTC is not 100% cash, but it's close enough to it that we keep telling people to treat their wallets like cash, and secure them with hardware, etc.
That is the point, that is the reason we "flaunt the irreversibility" because once I hand you cash it's yours, once I send you BTC it's yours.

-Dave

And if you're a fraud, it's yours. Not mine. That's what I'm saying.

Let's say you order something and choose to pay with cash. The courier won't hand it to you until you pay. You may expect something valuable, but the seller was a dick and put in there a brick.
Bitcoin is closer to hard cash than to CC, for example.

And PayPal is designed closer to an escrow that favors the buyer; comparing Bitcoin with that is like comparing apples with oranges.


I think that all depends on the selling platform. If you buy directly from a seller, you're indeed better with escrow or PayPal. But most things one usually buys from bigger shops/selling platforms. For now most are used with CC/PayPal handling user protection in this kind of matters, but for example AliExpress are themselves escrow - afaik the seller receives the money very late and the buyer has quite a good chance to prove he received broken product/got scammed and get his money back. I guess that for Bitcoin the shops or payment processors (why not?) may have to evolve into handling this too. And, interestingly, CBDCs getting issued may be of help in this matter.

Which does kind of bring up an interesting point about BitPay. They are one of the few that actually work with buyers when the merchant does not deliver. Many of the other custodial ones are still more of a hands off approach. Could be just the way they choose to do business, could be because they are US based and have to deal with other rules, but for all the crap they do, it's still better then the "too bad, so sad" attitude that other BTC / crypto processors have. Not saying BitPay is good, just bringing up the point that having processors have a 'merchant complaint department' would not be a bad thing.

-Dave

They're not idiots, they're just evil. :D Sorry, had to say this. :D
And I don't want to imply that the others would be idiots; I guess that they just don't care - there are far too many businesses that work under the "principle": if the money flows, why bother?

It's interesting that they do this, I didn't know. I would have been expecting them also in the "why bother" team. It looks like they're one more step in front of the competition. I really hope a proper Bitcoin payment processor will emerge and fast. One that is smart and also not evil.



Back to OP: reversible transactions help one side, irreversible transactions help the other side. It's still a good feature, not a weakness imho; I find it more normal that when a transaction is done, it's 100% done.
Fiat is also not reversible per se, it's just intermediaries who made it so.

That's the reality of a decentralized system, you do not pick and choose the part of it that you deal with.
With fiat systems, your finances are regulated, this does not mean you cannot be scammed, even the banks can screw you over. But there's a centralized system that exists and this gives an extra layer of options.

With Bitcoin, you do not have that, and are fully responsible for your transactions and everything else related to it. You make the decision to use an escrow and can make the decision not to and take the risk. It's just you and the other party with no third wheel.

It's an advantage from the point of view of receiver. Sellers can lose money to chargebacks if the funds came from stolen credit card or if the buyer is a scammer. People say that merchants will love Bitcoin because of this and will hurry to adopt it and will offer lower prices, because they won't have to pay fees to payment processor if they accept Bitcoin on chain.

So, overall both reversibility and irreversibility have upsides and downsides. But you are right that reversibility is better from the point of buyers, and there's way more buyers than sellers in the economy.

Well, talking about trust they are ways things can be handled and a buyer will be on the safer zone than the seller. Implementing double spending on a transaction can keep you safe and keep the seller at bay. The seller may now be compared to send the product before the buyer sends another funds (transaction fee) that will trigger the transaction to be confirmed.

On this note the buyer can reverse the transaction if they do not get their products and as well if they got the product. So, the best practice is to take an escrow at every transaction because in this space nobody trusts easily with their hard earned money or products.

The thing is; reversibility or a charge back absolutely does protect millions of pounds worth of money from fraud every year. However, it also enables people to use a charge back to their benefit, and therefore get products/services that they initially paid for, and then later charge back after using that product/service.

So, no matter what angle you come from, charge backs can be argued as a positive, and a negative. Although, Bitcoin when trading with a trusted middle man is absolutely the best way to exchange money, though I understand people's reluctance to use a third party when it comes to handling money. Though, ultimately when it comes to a dispute its the escrow that will be determining the outcome of the dispute.  

Personally, I would prefer to know that when I get paid, it can't be then taken off of me at a later date, because someone won an appeal, which usually favours buyers in all instances. So, you could be providing a perfectly legitimate service, but because of the appeals process which in the most popular websites consider buyer safety more than seller safety, they could potentially win a appeal simply by social engineering the person who's reviewing it. After all, these companies want to advertise that its safe to buy on their platform, not to sell.

Bitcoin doesn't allow for that social engineering aspect, and while it could be argued that the fact you can't reverse or charge back a transaction as a negative, I believe its the best approach since you aren't relying on a third party to determine the fate of your money.

The only issue with that is you're 100% responsible for doing your research when making a transaction, and sometimes research can't be conducted on every trade. That's part of the risk that Bitcoin entails if you use it.

I don't really know the answer on what's better. I don't like the appeal process in several websites, and while I have never had a problem selling something simply because I don't routinely do so, I know people who have offered a perfectly acceptable service get burned through it. So, it definitely does protect sellers in some cases.

Which is why while I do recommend people use escrows, I'm actually not a big fan of getting any third party involved. That's just my personal feeling towards the freedom that Bitcoin grants. Though, I think escrow does suit most peoples needs, because most people actually prefer a safety net, instead of being the sole responsible person for their money.

This is why I'm not entirely against banks either. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of them, but I can understand why some people would want fraud protection, and all that malarkey.

Irreversibility is good in a way that when you receive BTC with a good amount of confirmations, you know for sure that the funds are now actually yours without the fear of losing it. Knowing your bitcoin can't be taken away from you through reversing the transaction simply makes you sleep better at night, especially if it's a huge sum of money.

Now, obviously bitcoin doesn't fix literally anything, and buyer/seller fraud is one of them. While it sure helps to have reverse transactions in the situation your describing, it could also easily easily be a flaw. Imagine you selling some books to someone, then the buyer just reverses the transaction. Poof.

Lets look at this way. There are 2 ways of implementing the payment system.
1. Reversible like PayPal
2. Irreversible like bitcoin

A- The merchants using the first way will get scammed very easily and they can't do much about it.
B- This method would also be impossible to implement in a decentralized payment system. So if there were reversible transactions you can bet that all merchants are going to be scammed every day.
C- The merchant can also not know who the user is so they can't tell if the user is a scammer or an honest  customer.
D- Users using the first way are more protected although they can still be scammed if the processor (ie. PayPal) doesn't let them reverse the transaction even if they got scammed!

A- The merchants using the second way are protected and there is no way to scam them as the [confirmed] transactions are irreversible.
B- This is also the only way that works in a decentralized system.
C- Unlike other method, here the user can analyze the merchant and see if they can trust them. User can remain private but the merchant is not. Looking at feedback, age of their service, etc.
D- The users can still get scammed but the risk is significantly reduced. As I said the merchant "trustworthiness" could be measured and there are always escrows.

So you see when we look at pros and cons of two methods we realize that the second method is superior because it has less flaws even though neither are perfect.

Irreversible that's good for the merchant right and that is the biggest advantage of cryptocurrencies along with the decentralization. But the irreversible is only possible when we are talking about the confirmation so the merchant need to wait for atleast one confirmation to say that the money becomes mine which may take time when we are using less fee. And borderless transaction makes the bitcoin to become more preferably than paypal or banking channels because the receiver have to wait for days which is not the case with Bitcoin.

Well, the way I address a problem like this is usually through a Escrow service, but you do not want to do it that way. (So you obviously have to accept the consequences of that decision) Now on the other hand... using Escrow services for small purchases defeats the purpose of using Bitcoin to save money on fees, because it inflates the price of the whole purchase.

I normally do a test run with the cheapest product or service to "test" the merchant/retailer and then scale up my purchases if I am happy with their service. Obviously you cannot do this for all purchases, but it helps me to "validate" if these merchants are worth supporting.  ;)

Also, the "irreversibility" advantage is advantageous for the seller and not for the buyer, because the sellers are being scammed by reversed transactions ..after they provided the service or product.  ;)

From this last line, I think your post is talking more on anonymity than irreversibility, in the sense that if you get scammed with Bitcoin, there are very few ways to actually prove that you were scammed, and such cases are more often than not dismissed, but the thing is, whatever has a pro, usually has a con, thus with all the advantages of Bitcoin, which is most especially the fact that users are their own banks, the one thing the network expects of it's users is to protect themselves to the best of their ability, Bitcoin users who learn the security protocols on the network will hardly get scammed, if they want to make purchases with Bitcoin, they'll only buy from a well known store or individual who accepts Bitcoin, as a user, knowing how difficult it is to trace Bitcoin transaction, you should as such take double steps in protecting yourself and making the right choices when it comes to your funds.

It has its ups and downs, of course. If you send money to a scammer, you can't get it back. That being said, I don't think banks willingly give people their money back if they send to scammers either, otherwise so much money wouldn't be lost to scammers. I used the reverse option once in my life, but it was simple because they didn't actually send the money to the receiver's bank yet, and it was clear from the records that it was simply a mistake in a transaction (my card was charged twice for one purchase in a shop). But there's a benefit of irreversibility if you're a receiver, of course, because once you're paid, you're paid, and nobody can take that from you. Overall, it makes Bitcoin more serious and definitive.

I confess that the above responses haven't convinced me for the reason of this flaunting. They're like — Irreversibility is better because of <whatever>.

But, the merchants should do what's better for the client. Especially, if it's a recently-made business that exists exclusively in the internet. I can't trust them my money if I don't have another trusted third party.

I understand you like this liberty that is offered to the seller, I can concede it from the way you've formulated your opinion. However, I'd like to respond to this:

There's a strange thing with people who support this innovative, anarchic technology:  Instead of trying to give a solution, that will, if not completely solve the problem, balance the final result, they want to eliminate it completely. For instance, there's a problem with appeals which can happen even if the service is legitimate. How about making the transactions without trust? This way, the sellers won't suffer from this social engineering aspect.

Yes, but as you can see there are other problems created on the opposite end of the spectrum.

The reversal doesn't just happen with the clicking of a button. The procedure is durative as you'll have to provide evidence you've got victim of a fraud.

How's that? You mean the customers?

Irreversible like Bitcoin? They don't. You mean reversible like PayPal?

Isn't PayPal responsible for this?

adding reversibility will instantly be abused

chargeback scamming is high.
faking "my account has been hacked" to get a refund is high

bitcoins purpose is for PEOPLE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY of THEIR OWN VALUE.

transaction finality is the biggest feature of all
once its confirmed its final. and its the whole point of why people trust bitcoin. confirmation finality.

bitcoin protocol does not need reversibility. if people dont want to take responsibility to manage their funds they can always hand it to some custodian and let them manage it.

the way to see it is simple.. a suitcase of cash.
if you cant trust your own judgement to look after it. then find something that can do it for you(escrow).
if you are the type that would happily hand a suitcase of cash to a stranger with just a conversation of "ill be back later to give you the goods".. then maybe you should have done some checks and thinking before agreeing to such a lack of self security

heck even silkroad, a place for illicit drug dealings had its own escrow service and from reading old forum posts it seems that many people were happy with this and no one was demanding to break bitcoins independance to add reversibility

it does not require breaking bitcoins confirmation finality to give people some more control. they can easily find escrow services/custodians/even a friend/relative to work as a middle man if they want some buffer

I think that almost everyone pointed out the fact that this is an advantage depending on a case-to-case analysis.
If you're the seller and you get your bitcoins before you're sending the package is an obvious advantage, if you're the buyer in this situation then it's no advantage whatsoever dealing with bitcoins, quite the contrary.

The only case when this irreversibility is truly showing its advantage for everyone is when you're just thinking of storing your coins you've got from any source possible, there is no way in hell somebody could come and reverse this, so for the average joe that has got his coins from a stranger or an atm or some exchange yeah, this is an advantage, his coins are now his and nobody can reverse that. Of course, when the average Joe thinks of investing his coins in a 125%/day scam, then we do an u-turn  :D
In my opinion, the ones who you've seen flaunting this over and over are probably poeple who are restricted to one category, they don't care about day-to-day transactions or commerce or anything else, for the hodler till I die type it's an obvious advantage.

But what I'm curious about is why you linked this to commerce, if you would want to make a case against irreversibility there are other things where is a lot worse, just how in some others it would be the obvious preferable solution.

It is actually a very wise question and irreversibility is one of the many other factors, which makes bitcoin a not-fit currency for regular purchases. The only practical way is to use a bitcoin backed debit card if you really want to use bitcoin in your daily life.

So I don't think we can do anything here because bitcoin was created that way. That's why majority of the bitcoin holders actually use it as an investment rather than a currency system. it's slow confirmation time, irreversible transactions and high fees are pushing bitcoin to become only asset.

There is nothing else that you can do apart from making use of escrow and trying to find out whether the seller can bereliablebefore doing any kind of business with them. I’m by the way you shouldn’t report such cases to the police if cryptocurrency is not a legal asset or tender in your country. Reporting a case of cryptocurrency transaction to a law enforcement agency in a country where cryptocurrency is declared illegal, is going to land you into a serious problem.

So, first of all nobody legal status of cryptocurrency in your country before you take such a step. But, I would advise you to always deal with people that you know are trustworthy, and not just some strangers that you would see online.

Used to work at an online retail store handling payment disputes between buyers and sellers, and most of the time it only favors the buyers, while the sellers are almost always left with no option but to take the loss on their side.

The thing with reversible transactions is that anyone can make up a story that favors them, and ultimately win the appeal even if the story is purely fabricated. Most of the time, adjudicators only listen to the side of those who paid and never really ask the side of the seller. Transaction reversibility is a two-way street, that no matter where you look, there will always be a losing side. That's why it's highly important to choose which marketplaces are you going to deal with when using crypto. Not every seller is honest and will deliver the goods, but the same goes with buyers, too.

It's definitely a legitimate question, OP. It's just that IMO, there isn't really any right side between the two as the merits and demerits of transaction reversibility varies depending on the nature of the situation.

Who do you provide the "evidence" to though? The CEO of Bitcoin?

Having reversibility can be advantageous in some cases like you described, but this should be implemented in a platform made specifically for buying and selling stuff, not on the Bitcoin protocol itself.


Yeap, you pretty much described PayPal.  :D

No, the first method is a reversible method (like PayPal) and lots of merchants receiving payment through reversible methods are getting scammed every day.
You can search the keyword "PayPal chargeback scam" and see the complaints.

Fixed the typo.

Not really. They are just providing a payment processing and a wallet service, they do minimum checks but they can't prevent someone from going through all those checks and still scam a merchant. If they could there wouldn't have been so many scams happening!

I was talking about PayPal. Reversing a transaction in PayPal requires to address them. A bitcoin transaction cannot be reversed, however you may get your money back if you make a complaint to the police.

And I'm wondering, what counts as evidence with Bitcoin?

Nonetheless, PayPal gives you tips to avoid these cases (https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/disputes-chargebacks).

And yet, much less scams happen from the merchants' side. Isn't it a double-edged sword?

Why should it be considered as an advantage and where did you read it as an advantage of btc? The irreversible transaction is part of the things you should be aware of while using btc for transactions since that's the way it was designed, in the case of having a buyer's protection like ebay for refunds on item not received or things like, it is not possible with crypto as it is in fiat, you can see it as a disadvantage and not advantage.

If me, because that "irreversibility" is part of crypto, since i joined in this kind of community then i will accept something that can't be change, maybe keep suspicious to other people is something that we must do. Because once we're careless, scammer will take it as their advantage and then stole our money. And for Paypal, sometimes scammer can made that reversible thing as advantage too because they can ask refund and if we lose in position, we can lose our money because refunded to scammer. My point is scammer will have a lot of ways to steal people's money and it is better that we always guard ourself.

Yes, it is.
Understand for every great opportunity there must be a great sacrifice. I know if the cryptocurrency transaction reverse is introduced it will be a great benefit to everyone but what makes you think the same people that abused the freedom and decentralization of Bitcoin won't abuse the reverse features since Bitcoin is not governed when you and I?

I think the irreversibility of crypto is still a great advantage since only the sender has to be security conscious.

One of the big features of Bitcoin is this.

The answer is simple: If you allow reverses, you are letting someone the power to discriminate you, if you want that, go back to fiat.

The responsibility falls entirely in you. So don't get scammed, and if you do, go after the culprit, leave Bitcoin alone.
If someone makes an altcoin such as Ethereum, where one or few people can decide what transaction goes and what doesn't, go back to fiat.

The whole point of Bitcoin is to remove the power from these (any) people, otherwise they may decide tomorrow to block your transactions on a whim.

Its all or nothing. Either it works for ALL, or it works for NOBODY.
This is one reason why Bitcoin is so valuable, while the rest are not.

The power to discriminate should never exist. If someone is a criminal or not, that is outside of the code, its none of Bitcoin business. Otherwise you open a can of worms, some selected elites will abuse this power, because you are not of their country, or share their beliefs, or whatever.

The whole point of Bitcoin is freedom from all this nonsense.

Transactions are FINAL, there is no turning back. Want protection? Use a mutually trusted middle party, so called escrow, etc. That is your choice, just like you can ask a bank to store your bitcoins and handle them your keys. A foolish choice in my opinion, but a choice that is OPTIONAL, and not MANDATORY.

Reverse a transaction and you will lose trust forever. You are declaring the world that your garbage coin is as trusty as the whim of their creator or dev team or whatever small group of elite controls it or get coerced to. NOBODY can turn back a transaction in bitcoin, not even Satoshi, and that is PRICELESS.

I'm leaving this question for anyone who's willing to enlighten me:  If Bitcoin doesn't favor the buyer, but we want it to be adopted, how will we convince the buyer to use that, instead, if this very reason discourages them?

I didn't mean that irreversibility is a complete disadvantage for the people in general, but it really depends on which side of the shopping you're at. Could you name me these few, other things that are a lot worse?

I never said that bitcoin should change to a highly censoring currency with reversible transactions. I'm just thinking what's better for me to use. It seems it's bitcoin, because I don't want from anybody to know what I'm buying, but the downside is this.

I didn't badmouth bitcoin.

Couldn't agree more.

Because of all the other benefits bitcoin brings. Sovereignty over my own money. Privacy if I want it. Censorship resistant. No third parties. Etc.

Sure, irreversibility provides a greater benefit for the merchant than for the buyer, but I have never once been discouraged from using bitcoin as a currency because of its irreversibility, and I have never once been scammed or lost bitcoin because I actually pay attention to what I'm doing and who I'm trading with. If you can't trust yourself to pay attention to your money or not to be scammed, then sure, maybe a reversible currency where a third party can step in and save you from yourself is a better option in your case.

I sometimes forget to return from the Joe's view. Yep, these are decent reasons.

Merchants are doing what's best for their profits, and reducing risks means minimizing loses, which means more profits. They don't exist to purely serve the clients, serving clients is means to an end, not the end itself.

However, I think this factor is not very relevant, because merchants don't see any point in supporting a payment method that their customers are not using, it would just be a waste of resources to implement it.

Simply, in most cases is involving theft.
A guy could put a knife at your throat ask you to unlock your phone and that's it all your coins are gone. With a bank account or a credit card, you still have a chance! Same for everyone that gets its computer infected with malware or anything else, if I get an alert that at 2 pm my cc is being used somewhere in a store in Dubai I get on the phone and block it, if I get an alert that my transaction just get confirmed...well fuck...
By mistake entered the wrong address, you're at the mercy of the one who holds it, you sent btc to bshit, the same thing.

Cases and cases.
Could somebody force me to go to an atm and withdraw the maximum allowed money, yeah he could, does he know I have access to x10 more in btc he could get in a split second if I'm smart enough? Nope!  ;D

Pros and cons in everything, if we will have all the cars on the earth automatically stop 2 meters from a person to prevent things like the last even in Waukesha, there will be a band that will simply enter the highway stopping everybody and robbing them, if you piss your neighbor he will just send his kid in your drive way every time you get close to the car and block you. Every single thing can be abused and has flaws and in some situations, there is always a better one.

paypal is not dollar.

paypal is an escrow
you cannot compare paypal to bitcoin

paypal is comparable to all the bitcoin escrow services.
a bank note has no reversibility

if you deposit into an escrow (localbitcoins) they have their own claims process.

so in your arguments. try to keep to the correct analogies
bank note=bitcoin
paypal=escrow(localbitcoins)

after all in the fiat world you would not trust sending bank notes to a strangers PO box when buying something on ebay, that WHY YOU CHOOSE TO USE PAYPAL
so with bitcoin if you dont trust sending bitcoin direct USE AN ESCROW

oh, and if bitcoin did have a reversibility feature. what stops them reversing the reserve of the reverse. meaning no one can trust a confirmation anymore, even a refund of a fraud cant be trusted as the fraudster can then reverse their funds seizure.
it just opens up a whole bag of trouble of killing the purpose of bitoin..
.. oh wait your one of the altnet 'channel routing' lovers that want to break bitcoin to promote your altnet..
.. now i understand why your so emotionally hyped about wanting to break a bitcoin fundamental feature

maybe i have got you all wrong and you simply were recruited into these altnets before having time to learn what bitcoin is and does. so i hope you can take the time to learn about confirmation finality and its purpose, utility, benefit. and not simply ignore it to try tearing it apart in efforts to promote how your altnet is better

This, exactly. If you allow reversing some bitcoin transactions when fraud was involved, then bitcoin becomes no better than any other centralized currency. If you allow spying on some users' communication, then everyone's communication is at risk. If you ban some speech because you don't like it, then nobody has free speech anymore.

If you want bitcoin to be decentralized and censorship resistant, then you cannot possibly have some centralized entity deciding which transactions can be unilaterally reversed.

Not only that, but what if someone reverses a transaction I've already spent? You send me coins, I spend the coins at a merchant, and then you reverse your payment, leaving the merchant out of pocket and me responsible for it. Not to mention you could end up invalidating whole chains of transactions. Unless you say once the coins have moved they can't be reversed, which would just flood the network with absolutely everybody sending every transaction they receive to another address they own to bypass the reversibility feature. Completely unworkable.

This has always been a problem with crypto. It is why reputation is so important and frivolous use of the trust system should not be accepted by the community. I haven’t seen anyone come up with a good solution for this issue, but perhaps we must accept that cryptocurrencies have their limitations and in the end it comes down to dealing with people who have solid reputations and honest intentions.

It's a double edged sword, I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to argue that irreversibility in p2p transactions is the epitome of a pristine economic system, it's far from it. You incur risk any time you send a transaction because there is no do-overs, that risk is mitigated by common sense, and that risk becomes your advantage when the roles are reversed and you become the seller.