Bitcoin Forum

Title: CBDC is a tool to combat Bitcoin, says Bank of Indonesia exec

Source: “CBDC would be part of an effort to address the use of crypto in financial transactions,” Bank of Indonesia’s assistant governor Juda Agung said.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/cbdc-is-a-tool-to-combat-bitcoin-says-bank-of-indonesia-exec

I think I do not have to explain further as I did not even go deeper into details while reading the new because I know it will be a completely waste of my time.

How can CBDCs combat bitcoin? CBDCs are fiats and nothing more, what is special about CBDCs than being more privacy depriving? Bitcoin is an appropriative asset, a decentralized currency, a money. Bitcoin is not depreciative in value and not centrally controlled by any government or organization. The more people adopt it, the higher the price. This is making more people to buy it.

Now I can not believe some government officials in certain nation can be this so inaccurate (please pardon me to say that).

When it supposed to be celebrated how bitcoin and many cryptocurrencies made people rich, only what is talked about is condemnation. Who hold bitcoin for long and never sell while losing and yet still losing? No, long holders do not lose, they are making profit. Other than fiat that if not used for something good, its purchasing power is everyday decreasing.

That's hilarious! It seems government officials are same all over the world. It's no exception here in my country as well. I have a misfortune to work with the beaurocrats for two years and I have observed and that 99% of these officials are stupid and have sky high ego. Moreover they prefer to act as a puppet to the politicians.

CBDCs can't replace crypto in any way! If some officials are thinking that way, then they themselves need to wake up and face the reality. Unfortunately, that's what makes the difference between progressive and regressive nations.

Because they don't really understand what is Bitcoin or they understand the potential of decentralization in the money so trying to suppress it before fellow citizens realize it.

CBDC is a combat for Bitcoin for them because many people don't know what is actual bitcoin so they will go with what their government is guiding them instead of choosing decentralized money due to their ignorance.

And Bitcoin made some people rich and some as poor it really depends on their investment decision but what we have to prove is Bitcoin is more than a speculative asset, its going to be the future of money.

Anyone who says CBDC is a tool to fight against BTC didnt understand what BTC is. But they may have different meaning if the did understand what they are saying.

Basically, the adoption of BTC hasn't yet gone to a level where people can go out of the vending machine scan qr code and a pack of napkins come out. But with CBDC, they can fastforward things which we could use the CBDC app casually in any mart and buy thru the app.  So its the adoption of Bitcoin that they are combating.

Hey, they have to at least say something about Bitcoin and why they're trying to make cbdc, even if it was absolutely bs in the eyes of the learned. But hey, it's like bringing a bat to a gun fight, without the bat dude not really understanding the rules. Well ig for the government, it doesn't mean sht if they really understand it or not, as long as they believe that something is for a certain action, then they reckon it would work out. A forced argument so to speak, and hey, it's nothing different from the usual no?

AFAIK, CBDC in Indonesia isn't because of internal policy, but because of an agreement between worldwide central banks (including Bank of Indonesia) (https://bicara131.bi.go.id/knowledgebase/article/KA-01038/en-us). So I believe Juda Agung only repeat what he's been told by the higher ups (global central bankers cabal). Anyway, central banks seem to ignore the need for hard money, such as Bitcoin (or they are just pretending?). As long as they (the gov) don't mark crypto as illegal, I believe Indonesian people still holding strong, even if it become illegal (like gambling), they won't be able to stop the people.

I do think that the government, might try to make people go towards CBDC'S by saying such things but I do think that people should understand the fact that these things are not just wrong but also is guiding people towards accepting something which is not even what they promised it to be. They are not cryptocurrencies, they are just another thing close to fiat. Which would not even be volatile, it would be backed as well, which means that they are not at all different from fiat itself.

Government should actually understand that people are not stupid and they literally have to stop trying to impose such things. Very irresponsible statement made by the government.

They are not a tool to fight against cryptocurrencies, they are not even close to them, let's just let it sink it for the moment, Especially for them.

Politicians are in many ways a reflection of the societies that elected them, do you think the majority of the population understands what bitcoin does and why it is different than fiat? Do you think they understand fiat at all? And obviously the answer to those questions is no, so it is not odd that politicians do not know either and they believe they can just impose their will to their citizens as they have always done, not understanding that bitcoin was specifically designed to resist them, so am I surprised to read something like this? Not really, as to me it was to be expected.

This is to me is elusive and I won't the saying of any government against crypto-currency. Don't know about you but whenever I hear a news about any government concerning crypto-currency either good or bad, it all feels like a game. Where their aim is having control in the end. El-salvador might have had a long lap in accepting crypto-currency, that's ok and I respect that. But is it politically inclined, I can't be certain. The government can either come with threats or enticement, which ever works for them just so as to fill up their hunger to control. My country made this sort of move they are trying to make and it hit rock bottom. Crypto-currency isn't manipulated.

My country Nigeria recently launched their own CBDC, E-naira, this came few months after the ban on Bitcoin transactions as well as tracking and blocking of accounts believed to have been involved in cryptocurrency transactions. If you try to connect the dots, this would likely have been an attempt to draw people's attention away from Bitcoin, touting the national coin as an alternative. This plan however, was always going to fail as majority of the citizens have lost faith in the government and as such are looking for different ways to escape the grips of Banks and the likes.

However, in a fully developed country whose government is trusted and the citizens do not know much about Bitcoin, then a CBDC could actually become very popular, but again, it's not Bitcoin against the government or banks; Bitcoin is just another financial option one is allowed to have and use.

I would interpret it to mean they intend to contrast bitcoin's decentralization with centralization. Bitcoin's deflation with inflation. Bitcoin's open ledger and transparency with zero transparency. And so on.

Indonesia's population is primarily islamic. Many muslims have teachings and ideology which trends against banks and institutions that lend at high rates. It could be interesting to know how muslims reconcile CBDCs with their own religion. It is possible bitcoin could be the more attractive option under the ideology of islam.

Well you can say that they don't understand Bitcoin, but I do believed they are, it's that they have to protect their own interest here and obviously they still want to have this sort of control from their population.

Just imagine if most of them are going to invest on Bitcoin, become wealthy but then go out of the country, it's capital flight and it will make their economy worst. Maybe that's one reason why government is against Bitcoin, they want to keep all the wealth inside their country.

It speaks of how little knowledge they have about Bitcoin, or perhaps none at all. It is amusing how they seem to reduce Bitcoin into a simple fiat alternative devoid of anything special. They have a very shallow perception of what Bitcoin is. They underestimate Bitcoin so much so that they think a digital version of fiat is enough to compete, if not make Bitcoin entirely useless. These people are funny as they are clueless. The joke's on them. The joke is them.

To answer the title, I think the reason why these government officials don't understand is it's probably generation gap which means that they have no clear way to understand this technology because if I may say some of them think that we've hit technological advancements brick wall when CRT computers were made and they're from a generation that likes to feel what they have interest in physically so it's hard for them to grasp the concept of cryptocurrencies unless of course you are technology inclined person.

This news feels exaggerated, I even see that crypto does not interfere with my country's financial system. And what they are trying to do to fight crypto in my country is like fighting a sleeping elephant (actually there is no need to fight it). Even though it has reached a fairly large circulation volume, crypto is only a passive asset that is illegal to use for buying and selling transactions.

In addition, I still can't imagine how well the government wants to pressure people to switch to bank versions of digital money. In fact, right now they haven't even identified and screened crypto users as a whole.

I can't agree more. Most bureaucrats think so highly of themselves so much merely because they have a position in the government. They take that as leverage over other people mainly against ordinary ones. Maybe they think they have immunity because they are government officials since basically, the higher-ups are also tolerating them. Little did they know they are just being pawns in the chess game of the politicians with much power. The benefit goes to both parties still after all.

Also, can't really stand this kind of people who kept on saying that the CBDC will destroy bitcoin and crypto in general. Foremost, CBDC and crypto have their own purposes. They are existing for various reasons and there is no need to pit them against each other because they can coexist serving their own target markets and being an alternative for each other. Since you see, it would be a little too hard to some if the other vanishes away. It's just really the people that make things complicated than what originally is. Both have their uses and it can benefit people if they will just utilize its best to their advantage.

You are absolutely right, I always say this same thing whenever CBDC is being talked about . It is nothing more than the same fiat with a change of name and nothing more. Take for example, there is the Yuan and the digital Yuan, they are still the same thing, a currency that keeps on depreciating in value and nothing more.

He might be right in a way, because if you look at the reasons behind some of the governments releasing their digital currency, it's usually because they want to combat Bitcoin. Some of them like China and Nigeria banned Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies before releasing the heir own CBDC. But, CBDC is nothing more than just a joke.

AFAIK, There is a belief among many that the reason Bitcoin is attractive is that it is a new, completely digital asset and thus an evolution from traditional and slow payment methods in addition to the fees that can be very low. Thus, if banks create a digital currency, many will stop using Bitcoin.

The truth is the opposite. Commercial banks are the arteries that pump money into the financial system, and the creation of a digital currency will break the barrier for those banks, and thus the money will be direct to users, and the role of these banks is only financing, and thus the value of Bitcoin will increase.

More like creating plastic or synthetic Orange to combat real Orange.
It's important to educate people to know that the real one is good for them while the fake  kills them slowly.
 Those eating in ignorance will probably survive... Tell them the truth and they would spit it out in disgust or be more careful next time.

What government officials say about BTC might sound hilarious and/or ignorant,if you are an experienced Bitcoiner.
However,if you are a total noob and you are not even aware about Bitcoin,you would mostly likely listen to the government officials and believe in their words.
Many people,who aren't inside the crypto/Bitcoin world might believe the BS about Bitcoin being a threat to the national security and/or the financial system.
CBDCs might attract many financially ignorant people,who don't know and don't care about Bitcoin.
After all,the CBDCs are guaranteed by the central banks and they are digital currencies.What's not to like? ;D
The "average Joe" won't care about decentralization,deflationary nature,secure transactions and all that stuff.

we do not know behind the statement whether they also actually own crypto assets, ordinary people will definitely be affected by it but those who already understand technology don't care

We can say that they are ignorant because they doesn't know things about technology and its expected for people to react badly for the thing they didn't know so this is expected for them knowing majority of the law makers is old cunt. But for other who knows about it for sure they think about technology and not those scammy things or bad things what they think about it. Maybe for now we cannot expect them to care about bitcoin but once the popularity of it will burst more for sure those guy will step up and file a law towards its adoption.

Politicians are the problem that the world is facing. They are double mouthed. They speak to favour government in power for favour, office uplift to be relevant to that particular government but after the government elasps, they grant interviews and you see them criticizing the government  ;D They are the worse advisers of the government and because they see the difference in class status being narrowed from cryptocurrency investment by the lower class they struggle to fight it with the introduction of CBDC but because of their inept knowledge in blockchain and cryptographic encrypted technology they feel digital currency will
replace cryptocurrency.

Ok I get it now. I think what they mean is, there are various platforms which are basically real world share market based broker who are now offering the trading options for crypto currencies as well. I think this has caused them to link bitcoin as one of the prime asset which is being traded in similar fashion to traditional commodities thus making it as part of regulated CBDC asset too.
If not then I believe it’s merely a way to showcase that bitcoin is causing lot of problems in financial circle and they don’t want it to be part of the same.

Well I would say it is what it is.

Behold, some of them know exactly what crypto is all about but won't stop them from badmouthing crypto simply to create an entry point for them to invest, bad news still affects crypto till date as we know it so that's a weapon for power men across the globe

There are numerous reasons behind it since government think it'll increment the dark advertise and expansion will took put but they dont think almost the reality on the off chance that they didnt issue claim coin will confront numerous poblems since modern era will not halt to utilize the crypto and exchanging with it.Actually they do not truly get it what is Bitcoin or they get it the potential of decentralization within the cash so attempting to stifle it some time recently individual citizens realize it.More they will delay more issues will confront and endure from financial hurdles.

This is something that is very funny because directly these officials show off their stupidity and make something as if they are right but wrong :D
I don't want to say only in one country because most governments in almost every country will have something like this :)
At least with them doing this I become a new joke and entertainment :D

They say proudly CBDC is the opposite of BTC. But on the other hand they don't know what BTC is. this is so funny lol.

I absolutely agree with you. Bitcoin has a lot of advantages over fiat money. First of all, it is not prone to inflation. It has a limit and nobody can create more Bitcoin than 21.000.000 while fiat money can be released in large quantities and, as a result, they devalue. Secondly, Bitcoin is under the control of public, while fiat is controlled by the government.

This is really ironic, what amazes me this political stupidity is widespread not only in reactionary countries but in developed countries as well, many civilized countries have done the same thing and they are both fighting bitcoin, I think the problem is not that they don't understand bitcoin but quite the opposite They fully understand Bitcoin, so they fight it with full force. They know that Bitcoin means decentralization and privacy, and they also know that it means financial freedom, and these are exactly the things that they want to prevent and deprive citizens of access to. But their lies no longer deceive anyone.

That is because they want to get sympathy from people by saying like that so people will believe that the government officials really know the current situation and conditions. Besides that, I think they have their own mission to say like that for themselves because they want to have a good name among their people so they can achieve their goals in the future.

But unfortunately, people become smart now and can think twice about what they heard and will not just believe what their government says. Besides that, some of those people have institutions that can investigate if their government officials saying the truth or doing a lie to their people.

I think this is the key here. They simply want to fight the new system that is Bitcoin, holding on to the old system that is FIAT but making it digital. I think it is a mixture of ignorance in part and on the other hand of refusing to see reality, because deep down they know the essential difference between the Bitcoin and the old FIAT system that they represent, however much they want to digitize it and turn it into a shitcoin.

Because they feel powerful whenever they say something and defend it. There is nothing you could do to change their minds because they believe that they are great and they are never wrong and that's at least the act they put on. They would not be able to find any solution to any problem in the world, we have seen absolutely zero improvement in nations for decades now, every politician in every nation works to just get themselves richer and that's it.

If they ever do anything that looks good, that is mainly because they want to get rich from it and that's it. They build a bridge? They get tens of millions of dollars bribe in it, they build a road? They get paid, they start a hospital? They put their family members as workers. No politician has done something that was 100% purely good in many decades. Hence they do not care if they know what CBDC is or if I they are right, they just care to get popular and get richer.

Actually, I'm not surprised if Bank Indonesia said that, while on the other hand the President himself allowed the people to learn Crypto because it was part of the development of the times.  Basically, Bank Indonesia as the central bank really doesn't like the existence of BTC and other coins.  What's more, they consider crypto as a threat and an enemy because it disrupts financial stability in Indonesia.  So that the warning from Bank Indonesia continues to roll on crypto users.

Ask yourself how many people can define Bitcoin in one or two simple sentences? I honestly doubt that this is perhaps between 1% and 2% of the total world population, and I may have exaggerated the estimate if we take into account that a large number of members of this forum do not distinguish Bitcoin from blockchain.

Herein lies the answer to your question “how can CBDC combat Bitcoin?” - very easily if the average person doesn’t know the difference between two diametrically different things. In addition, most people blindly trust governments and do whatever is asked of them, which means that they will believe that CBDC is better than BTC.

I see this happening around me and get really pissed off. I mean, if you don't like a thing or get some sense of insecurity about something, the least that could be done is doing a proper research in order to know that thing in depth and satisfy that it isn't good for you! By doing that, you could clarify doubts and be able to present some really good arguments on that course other than working on a hunch. I wonder if people go with a hunch to a court of law. If no, why should the case with bitcoin or cryptocurrencies be any different.

I think most of the old forks in places of authority aren't just dynamic in there way of reasoning and doing things. I hot news of some senator in my locality to have been recently thought on how to use an android or smart phone. I mean, how can such a person appreciate technology? It's absurd what these guys do and how they reason. The world is rapidly changing and those that are too stiff to follow the trend, they should give more vibrant persons space.

I believe that in most nations the central bank and the president are two different power places and they can't do anything about each other. Obviously there are tons of dictatorships in the world where their money worths absolutely nothing at all but if it is democratic enough then central bank presidents could say anything they want without fearing what the president of the nation would respond.

Bank of Indonesia could fear bitcoin as much as they want to, any bank in the world could be fearing it as much as they want to, but that doesn't change the fact that they will have to accept the fact that bitcoin is here to stay and they will not be able to change that at all.

That is the way many politicians think, they have a view of the world that believes that everything can be solved from the top to the bottom, basically they think that if they pass a law or something that is going to be enough for everyone to do what they want, but if people have an incentive to think the law is unjust then they are not going to follow it, and that is what it will happen with any attempt to ban bitcoin, and once they fail they will have to recognize that bitcoin is something that is outside their control.

Honestly governments do not have any other options to escape from bitcoin except accepting it. I mean they may try any method to compete against bitcoin but due to all resolutions provided by bitcoin, it will definitely sustain and then government will start realizing their mistake. CBDC are indirectly helping people to understand about electronic payment methods by leaving off paper money which means over the time people will adapt bitcoin as well along with CBDC due to deflation and decentralized nature of bitcoin.

So, we need to be calm by watching government's actions against bitcoin (I guess in most countries, bitcoiners will not have any other option except watching) and then will start experiencing the real power of bitcoin over the time.

It doesn't even need to be officials from "certain" nation. I won't even be pissed if I heard such trash and misleading comment from my country's financial officials. Whether Africa, Asia or America, politicians are unbelievable. They often act the spin doctor just to deceive the undiscerning populace. The wise among the populace will discern the true situation. The only reason the American citizenry are different is because theirs is a complete democracy where citizens can boldly challenge their leaders through court and popularity contest. Africa and Asia aren't like that.

There is maybe the same situation in all over the world, this cab funny when you say they do not understand it but actually for me, that's very much sad to see the government do not even understand what they say and we are surrounded by these people ruling our countries and surly affecting our lives, however, no matter of the country but as far as I can see there is he same situation in all countries in the world more or less. They act like CBDC is a tool to fight against bitcoin because they do not even know bitcoin.

The news has become consumable to spread things the government doesn't like about crypto assets, especially with the mainstream news from CBDC. I no longer wonder why they make news as if a big threat is happening to the Indonesian state just to protect the interests of the government. It's not that they don't understand, they don't want to be rivaled and they don't want things to outperform other financial assets than they have control over. Therefore, mainstream media is not an option for us to prepare ourselves to invest in crypto.

Simply put, for the government itself, the presence of the CBDC was deliberately created as a way to divert people's choice towards cryptocurrencies. There would be no CBDC without cryptocurrencies. So it is clear how the issues they are trying to convey to the news consumption audience, of course CBDC is considered safe. But still it is the essence of financial monitoring to their respective owners. In essence, the government of any country does not want the flow of funds to flow without the approval of the bank and the government. Because then they have a big incentive.

I as an Indonesian citizen actually feel embarrassed by this stupid statement, and to be honest he doesn't know anything about bitcoin

even a CBDC as strong as China alone will not be able to beat bitcoin. Her statement is just a fantasy, so there's no need to think about it  :D

It is going to take a significant amount of time for that scenario to happen even if I think the same as you and I think bitcoin will leave governments no option, for example El Salvador has adopted bitcoin like no other country but it is only one country, the rest still have an ambivalent attitude towards bitcoin, they would like to get taxes out of it but they can see the risk bitcoin entails for their fiat currencies, so the most likely scenario in which the rest of the governments could adopt bitcoin is when their fiat currencies are in such a bad shape that such a thing is not a factor anymore when it comes to taking the decision to adopt bitcoin or not.

Don't worry, we all live in nations with stupid people. Indonesia is not really alone in this, from USA to the west to Japan to the east and everywhere in between, the whole world is filled with idiots and people who are so brave with their ignorance is that they end up talking about it like it is not a big deal and they talk like they know what they are talking about.

The reason for this is that we have ignorant masses in the world right now, and those ignorant masses vote for the politician who promote ignorance, do you think someone with 50 IQ would vote for someone who belittles them and uses his 150 IQ? No, they would vote for the guy who talks like he has 50 IQ (even though he is smart politician but acts with stupid to get their vote). This is why we keep seeing all over the world how populism means acting along with the idiots and saying idiot things to get more votes.

I believe it happens because these officials aren't prepared to occupy the spots they do inside the public administration. Many of these people are put there by politicians to act in a political way, what means they don't have technical knowledge and experience to deal with technical matters, like crypto currencies, so they end giving inaccurate statements when confronted by reality, like the one presented in OP.
Not only that, but these officials are also totally harmful to their countries, because as they are clueless about what to do, they end presenting disastrous solutions through regulations to what they consider a problem, that is bitcoin and decentralized crypto currencies in general usage.

Cryptocurrencies and blockchain are relatively new solutions, and therefore it should not be surprising that officials do not fully understand the issue and treat it with some prejudice. Also, one should not neglect such a factor that such officials reason exclusively from the side of state benefits and see cryptocurrencies as a threat to already established economic relations and the functioning of the state machine. Therefore, such statements are often justified not by incompetence in this matter, but by partiality, which sometimes borders on rejection of new phenomena and trends. Therefore, let's hope that time will put everything in its place and cryptocurrencies and fiat currencies will get along perfectly and complement each other around the world.

They want to get sympathy in the wrong way, Instead of being seen as updated with technological developments they actually blunder and show their shortcomings that make people who understand laugh.
Imaging in order to have a good impression in front of the public I have never had a problem with things like this, but indeed things like this should be based on more knowledge, at least they need to learn a little before issuing a statement so that they don't look stupid with data and facts

some politicians are just too lazy to educate themselves on certain subjects like crypto. we know that most of them have their own research staff, so they are relying to what is given to them. some don't have time to do their own studying on such topics. the reason why sometimes they give statements that are lopsided because they lack the true understanding of the subject.
some are just following what their constituents are saying just to get their sympathy, especially if they have political plans.

They wont really learn up things or they do sound dumb which it isnt surprising because as long things wont really interest them out then they wouldnt tend to make out
some research and on the time that they do give out some words then they do really look to be that dumb in the front into those people who do knows about crypto.
They could learnt it up if they wanted too but same as you said that they are just too lazy on doing such very basic behavior or thing.

They are just been skeptical since they know old school things that's why they don't really take this seriously and think that its bad for the people to adopt it, but if they could just research it and get help on those people who really know about the technology for sure they will learn this. But they remain silent and became naive on what's new so expect that the adoption will take time if this kind of people will still in the seat.

CBDC is surveillance on citizens without the vast majority of citizens realizing it . VERY SCARY !!!

What can we expect? They will only believe what they want to. They're seeing Bitcoin as a threat to fiat beause it cant be regulated. Thus creating their own CBDCs would be the solution for them to replace Bitcoin to use by its people. If only the Government is open to see the advantage of using crypto (just like El Salvador that sets Bitcoin as legal tender) then there's no need for them to make their own CBDCs.

Yes you do have a point. Most of these government officials do not do their research before coming out to say things like this. Instead of them to do proper research and understand everything that they are meant to know about decentralized cryptocurrency (Bitcoin)  they just come out of nowhere with half knowledge of what it is all about and start saying rubbish to make themselves look stupid.

I just don’t get why they are against bitcoin, their problem is that they just don’t understand it, but they never agree, and still continues to say things that doesn’t really make sense at all. They don’t give reasons that are strong enough to convince people that Bitcoin is bad. They can only lie to those who have no knowledge at all about Bitcoin, but you can’t keep lying for long, very soon people will come to know the truth.

At the end most politicians are in their positions because they had some influence and they used that influence to give themselves a chance to get elected and people voted for them, so most of the time they do not know what they are talking about, but since they have power they believe they do, this is a problem as politicians can do a lot of harm to a country with the laws they pass and then they try to blame someone else for the consequences their laws brings believing that the population will believe them, something that happens way too often.

They wouldnt be called government officials if they arent really that having intellect which is more than on most people yet they are on the position on which having that high responsibility and its true that they are getting used into those old school.

Its just a matter of self aware on things around and they could eventually adopt it right away if they wanted to.It is just clear that
they havent put up any interest yet as of now.

We dont need them to be forced though because one they it would really poke up their attention.

The more irresponsible a government is and the less educated, the more they will want to combat bitcoin and make it as difficult as possible. However those that embrace the technology can take an effective competitive advantage by allowing the citizens and the institutions to invest and create new markets and new economic developments.

By no means should any government think that banning bitcoin is without consequence. Firstly the citizens will bypass the ban, as it is nearly impossible to completely stop it and secondly, other countries embracing the tech will take advantage.

Exactly, everything has consequences, if a government wants to ban bitcoin they can do so, however they cannot complain when their citizens despite the ban keep using bitcoin instead as they think the law is unfair and they use bitcoin as a store of value to protect themselves from their policies, in fact this is nothing new, as we know inflation is very high all over the world and despite the attempts to blame this on supply issues we know this is because of how much money it was printed, and whenever people begin to lose faith in the national currency the government tries to stop people from using alternatives, and this has always failed.

The government can try all they can but I'm certain they can have the term crypto scrapped because its beyond their power already. It keeps expanding and we all can see the progress.