Bitcoin Forum

I thought it was interesting to discuss when I just realized that merit senders are mostly dominated by signature campaign participants ^{[bitcoin payments]} compared to bounty campaign participant ^{[token or coin payments].} Check every profile of the Top 200 merit senders in this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4523027.msg58364214#msg58364214), you know the facts.


This fact does not necessarily prove that there is not a single bounty hunter who does not care about the merit system because I think some of them still care about the quality of posts and the merit system. Honestly, most of the spam reports I send to moderators are posts made by bounty hunters, they dominate the list of users spammers compared to bitcoin paid signature campaign participant.


So this fact just proves that this dominance is the reason why signature campaign participant are much more likely to gain merit and rank up than bounty hunters. The main factor remain because of the quality of the posts, so it's only natural that bounty hunters always have trouble getting merit and rank up.

Can you think of anything to change their behavior about this especially in an effort to reduce spam on this forum?

If a spammer never stops posting spam which ends up getting moderators to delete a lot of their posts, then I think a signature ban or temporary ban deserves them. The merit system is actually very helpful for qualified users to rank up "if the ranking is still low" regardless of whether they are bounty hunters or other signature campaign participants.

You may have noticed when you are also a participant in a signature campaign that the campaign manager requires you to have high quality posts and this may differ from many bounty managers. They pay more participants for quantity than quality of posts and this has been the case for a long time. Some managers may care about the quality of the bounty participants' posts, and they warn the participants and I think that is only done by managers with high reputations while others don't.

Linked to this, I really think that managers should ask for a higher amount of merits earned in the last 120 days in order to be accepted in any signature or bounty campaign.

As far as I know, the average number of merits needed to participate (if any) is 5, which is ridiculous.

I'm not saying that they should ask for 100+, but Jesus! 5 merits in 120 days is very, very low, at least for Full Members or higher ranks.

I think the reason for more merited users in Bitcoin campaigns than alt campaigns is basically simple – bounty hunters don't really put much efforts in their posts like those in Bitcoin paying campaigns and as such don't attract much following and reading. I ain't sure most bounty managers even take out time to go through posts made by those who promote their products. I'm referring to on–forum posts by signature bounties. Personally, I had on few occasions tried to merit some users who had over 200 activities and posts but zero merit. Upon checking their post history I discovered that there was no post deserving of being merited as virtually all were bounty posts and weekly reports. Only a few bounty participants make it a point of duty to write constructively.

In my opinion, campaign managers should play a major role in controlling the quality of posts. Since I have never participated in any of these altcoins campaigns, I do not know who the managers are, but if they applied better quality control, I think the amount of spam would be significantly reduced.
It would be interesting to see a comparison between these managers and the amount of merits shared among participants in their campaigns.

Bounty hunters don't need merits to participate in bounties, they do not even need to make quality posts to get paid. There is more competition for signature campaigns, it is survival of the fittest. The way to increase one's chances of being accepted in a good sign campaign is quality posting and merits. A campaign manager won't consider a user with 7 merits earned in last 120 days over another with say 40 merits. The rules and requirements of sig campaigns help prevent spam, some managers count only constructive posts so it all boils down to the manager

Have you considered who has available sMerit to send? Have you also considered the number of posts made by each category of users?

I obviously have not seen the specific data you are looking at to make your conclusions, however, I suspect one group has much more sMerit available to spend than the other group.

The manager should check their quality post that might change their posting behavior.
There are some scenarios that a bounty hunter will spam and be forced to complete the weekly quota because they had multiple accounts, they can't able to put some effort into their posts that result from spam.

To reduce the spam post it could be by helping with us.  Just report to the moderator if there's an irrelevant, off-topic, and nonsense post that results in spam, in that way, we can help moderators to take action quickly of those reports.  But of course, bounty managers should always be the first addressed to this question.

Paid Bitcoin signature members have got many eyes to them, if you didn't have a constructive post it might you will be reported and have a chance to be kicked on the signature campaign.  There are many users waiting for the free slots on the paid Bitcoin signature campaign, so most likely they will put effort to maintain their position.  Not like in bounty signature.

Because of two main reasons

• They are mostly from top merit earners
• Many of them are merit sources

There are very little good posters from bounties. I don't say all participants in bounties are shit posters but it is very hard to find good posters amongst thousands of bounty hunters

Bounty managers don't require minimum earned merits to join and they even accept newbies. It is most common reason. You give shit posters chance to join and earn, so why do they have to care about their post quality and merit?

Usual bounties in alt section don't care about quality but quantity while BTC paying bounties are strict, they would kick you out if your post quality is not enough. Also, these BTC paying bounties are reserved for high ranked members who have proved themselves before.

This is easy... just remove altcoins sections, but I don't think theymos would do that since surely it will reduce traffic in this forum. It's true that this forum doesn't need shitposter and spammer, but the forum still need traffic otherwise it similar like in Serious discussion or Off topic sections.

There're many good poster aren't active again (one of them has passed away too) e.g. TECHSHARE, Vod, Lauda, gentlemand, TMAN, Brewmaster, TheNewAnon135246, marlboroza, Last of the V8s and many more I can't remember. We can't do much about it just use report to moderator.

At least the Merit system has reduced some Spamers. Even if it's not very effective. Actually the first orientation on the new members must be straightened out. They only have a money-making orientation.
The false start makes it difficult to eliminate. I myself also saw in other forums, the spamer must be there. I think if all members care, it can start with yourself by using the moderator report feature. If everyone cares at least it will help the moderator to delete it, so the author should be aware of why their post is missing. If it is still repeated it may have to be permanently blocked. 

I've already said such behavior in one of the topics, it's an open secret among the BitCointalk community.

Bitcoin paid campaign the required conditions (Merit) for the Bounty campaign do not require (Merit), the spam phenomenon is a natural phenomenon, the character and behavior of many communities in this world, it doesn't only happen in Bitcointalk, social media and other forums are also flooded with spam.

The way to reduce spam all you need to do is report it to the Mod, that's the best solution.

While we all agree that most Bitcoin paying signature campaigns require a minimum of 5 merits earned within 120 days, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't some campaign managers that accept posters with zero merit earned within that time space. Sometimes, posters have quality posts that aren't merited. It happens so and some of these managers know that. The hardworking ones among them do check post history when accepting participants. I have even seen cases where posters with less merits earned got accepted ahead of those who've excess merits.

Bounty hunters are not into merit race and they are regularly posting the bounty submissions and rest if they post in other sections they are sharing the same posts that other members have already said and they are not contributing best to the forum out of their capacity which is why those who are doing the same get merits.The bitcoin paying signature campaign have rules to have earn merits in past 120 days and manager also checks the quality of post of the participants which is why it further ensure they can get merits as well.

I think last week, I saw one important Thread Headline and quickly clicked on it to get some useful responses and to join the discussion. I Read the entire replies but couldn't find any useful response. Every post in that thread sounds like they were written by drunken bots who are also on steroids. Now I get it. Perhaps those posts were made by the Bounty Hunters?

If the thread appears on search engines, everyone who's clicking on it is going to be very disappointed. The mistake I made was that I didn't report the posts but I'm sure someone would do that.

It's going to be almost impossible for anyone in their right mind to merit such posts. I don't really know what Bounty Hunting is or how it works but I think more effort should be put in moderating their posts.

Bounty hunters have very different goals. I am more than sure that almost everyone has several alternative accounts to participate in bounty campaigns. The only thing is that someone knows how to properly hide these accounts, and someone, due to their haste, greed, and inattention, is periodically caught by detectives.
Therefore, they are not baffled by writing good posts. The goals are different, quickly work out your numerous accounts.
But one day the hunters need merit, and then we see their "efforts" to obtain merit, which very often lead to plagiarism and further prohibition.
A recent example: https://loyce.club/archive/posts/5861/58619364.html
Account banned.

Best way to adjust merit system is if you have earnings here you can only have one account on one ip.
many people disagree with it but this is the only right way to correct merit system.

greed is something that can make people go to any level without controlling it you can't cure it.

interesting topic. the discussion that maybe few people pay attention to this.

Bounty hunters focus on what is considered a job. (non-accusable thought).
outside the context of the bounty hunter signature campaign (payment of tokens or altcoins), you can see how accounts are joining social media campaigns. you will even see the fact that there are accounts that 100% only contain posts in the bounty thread in the form of POA and weekly reports.

What can help with this classic problem? I think, is the rules of the bounty manager.

Just by imagining having a farm of accounts, it's more possible that they'll be caught abusing bounties. I recall certain user here in the forum that I caught long time ago (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5338254.msg57045252#msg57045252) due to similar Telegram names. It was only a single post/single mistake that cost the account. Although in a naked eye, judging from their usernames, it is obvious that both are alts.

Bounty hunters (in general) care about the merit system to the extent that it allows them to rank up, and that's about it.  I seriously doubt any of them care about what anybody else is writing, because they're not paid to read or hand out merits--and the vast majority of them are here for the sole purpose of getting paid.  There are exceptions, of course, but what I just described is the rule.  And OP, you've pretty much presented good supporting evidence for that.

Bitcoin-paying sig campaigns are harder to get into than bounties, which seem to accept any member who applies (including alt accounts).  So it stands to reason that members who write the best posts and are invested in the forum are going to flock to campaigns instead of bounties.  Plus they tend to be members who've been on the forum for a while and know that the tokens that bounties pay out are usually complete shit, and that's in addition to the risk of not getting paid at all.

Well that's been discussed ad nauseam over the years, and I'm fresh out of ideas.  Theymos could probably come up with solutions, but I think he's satisfied that the merit system has reduced shitposts significantly since its inception (and it has).

Of course they should demand more, but then the problem would be how to fill in all the available spots in the campaigns. In addition, this criterion is completely meaningless, because each shitposter can in one way or another reach 5 merits in 120 days. Whoever invented this rule did not want to prevent spammers from being paid for what they do best.

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I would say that only two things would be effective, although both are in the realm of the impossible.

• The forum bans bounty campaigns, the number of active users falls by 50% +, and so does forum traffic.
• Managers are raising the bar and banning Newbie and Jr. Members from participating in bounty campaigns.

Of course, everything revolves around money, and no one will cut the branch they are sitting on - so we can continue to pretend we don't know where the problem is, even though it has long been clear to everyone.

This is because, most of the bounty participants make their posts in altcoins section. And the altcoins section doesn't have any merit source. Moreover, they doesn't make good qualitative post in altcoins section which deserve merits. While Bitcoin signature campaign participants spread their post all around the forum and you will find good qualitative post from them.

Almost every bounty hunters consider the forum as a source of earnings. It's not possible to change their behavior until they change their mentality. The campaign manger search for qualitative posters for BTC paying campaigns. On the other hand, bounty manger doesn't search for good posters always (unless the campaign is run by a good manger). Many of them just pick some users to run the advertisement.

Using data as of last Friday, and without taking into account banned accounts, I make it 4.438 profiles merited in the last 120 days. The distribution would be as follows:

Now placing the merit bar for campaigns above, let's say, 10 earned Merits over the last 120 days, would currently reduce the number of candidates to 1076 (24,25% of all merited users over the last 120 days). Taking into consideration that those precise profiles are currently likely in slots of the best forum campaigns, the actual available pool for "other" campaigns would be pretty low. I figure that leads to lowering the bar a fair share in many campaigns, and even to giving it a skip.

I went through those times on this forum and to be precise before the merit system was introduced in January 2018. But after this system was born there was no best way to rank up and get merit except simply by improving the quality of posts to be more constructive and useful. Without reading and trying, I think people would still have a hard time doing it, and my success since then stems from a growing interest in reading more things and posting them at every opportunity.

OP, you have been recognized as a spam hunter so far based on your reported activity. I only advise you to keep doing it if you intend to keep the forum from spammers. Usually a temporary signature ban or temporary ban will make the spammer change his mind and post behavior and I think it works quite well in some cases.

This might have been the rule if the user kept on making spam posts and most of them were deleted:

• 7 days ban
• 14 day ban
• 30 days ban
• Permanent ban

I understand all the points you made, but I don't think there is any need narrowing it down to the sort of campaign one is in, merits actually have nothing to with whatever campaign a user is on, I'm reiterating this so users on altcoin bounties don't get the impression that their sort of campaign gives them the 'liberty' to post spam more often than not.

Merits is basically just based on what quality you can generate/produce, it doesn't matter the kind of signature you have on, or if you do not have any at all. The only way there can be a behavioral change based on this is if more users actually understand what exactly the forum is for, if they do then they'll engage in discussions without expecting anything (mostly merits) in return, and that way they get better and become an invaluable member to the community.

The problem with bounty hunters is that they don't understand that they can participate in their bounties but still make some effort to create decent posts in other areas of the forum. But they don't care, and they don't want to do that. That's why many users don't like them. Especially social media spammers. Why can't you be a designer who creates artwork for new projects, does translations, or writes articles, but in the same time has a genuine interest in Bitcoin and participates in discussions on those subjects like a normal human being? You don't get many of those. Bounty hunters are mostly focused on their tokens.

Established members and merit sources have altcoin subs on ignore or they simply don't go there. Bounty hunters post mainly in those sections. Add those two pieces of info together and you get the reason why those willing to discuss things normally are users who get merited and are meriting others with similar interests.

Bounty hunters (in the altcoins section) only care about the merit system if it is a requirement for participating in the campaign. They probably don't even care what else is on the forum. Almost all of them only care about their bounty payment, and they are not paid to read comments or participate in discussions. What is worse, the vast majority of them have more than one account on this forum, which requires a great deal of time to manage them all.

I've been ignoring altcoin boards for some time because I know I can't achieve good quality posts there which I think will only make my posts more likely to be reported/deleted. Indeed there is nothing wrong with altcoin board if users can post on topics that are constructive enough, this allows them to increase the insight of other users whose understanding is still subpar.

As you said, the best post quality standard is when the poster is willing to engage in an interesting discussion where they can interact with each other based on their knowledge and experience on the forum. This is the best advice I've ever received when I was struggling to improve post quality, so I've chosen to keep it until now.

True. I have been promoting bounties since past one year and mostly I join signature campaign and try my level best to make versatile and quality posts while meeting the Targeted quantity. Indeed  Bounty Manager have vital role to control quality of posts and some good Managers  do take of it and some don't. i think we should initiate debate on this forum to define what is quality post and what is not and make it mandatory for Managers to strictly implement it.

Actually we have long had the correct rule to apply to all forum users if you have paid attention to rules 1 and 2 of this thread: Unofficial list of (official) Bitcointalk.org rules, guidelines, FAQ (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0). So I don't think there's any need to argue about what users should do when they join a signature campaign. While the number of users who care about the quality of posts in my opinion is very small compared to spammers, it is true that the merit system has made these users more recognized and they will be stuck in the same rank for a long time until they start to care about quality.

Some bounty managers will care, and many others don't, so they can still accept users with negative tag in their bounty campaign. I think it's the manager's decision how he builds his campaign management well, but of course this will open up opportunities for scammers to get a place in the campaign and get paid.

I have never done a bounty and as such might not tell how it works perfectly.
But in a common sense, if I have a project and all I care is the publicity of the project, irrespective of the means of publicity or the reputation of the one behind the publicity. My only problem should be the end result - how viral my project is going

Again, if my primary aim of being in this forum is to gain knowledge, at some point, I should be able to appraise myself and know the amount of knowledge I have gotten.
But if my aim is to be paid with any token, my self appraisal would be to check how fat my portfolio is becoming.

Not everyone values the merit system.

Yet, the number of merits one has does not only  define how quality the person is, it hugely defines interest. Some users careless about merits that they will even ask you not to merit them no matter how quality their posts appear.

You cannot stop them because we have a different perspective they want to support altcoin projects, also we have a merit system in the altcoins campaign they don't require too much also few people rank up with the altcoins because their goal is to make in the quota. Today it makes it hard to rank up because of the merit system and they don't want to spend a lot more time to get it most of the campaign now requires a minimum of full members and it took a long journey to have this because of 100 merits than the member rank of 10 merit requirements. Still it is better to have a quality post than spamming post only it does not benefit the whole community.

If BM counts shitposting for payments, consider that project already failed one, bounty hunters already pay for it by not getting payments/delays and if they even get the payments they get measly value out of it.

One of the most effective method of stopping spammers is to report as often as possible posts that you find off-topic, non-constructive and low-quality to moderators.

Whether or not it is difficult to rank up as long as this merit system exists depends on the user's own interests. If users have a great interest in learning bitcoin then they will probably rank faster without worrying too much about merit. But this will never happen to users who from the start only thought about how to make money through bounty and you may find they don't get a single merit even though the number of posts has reached thousands. If users care about rank then they should make an effort to learn and improve their knowledge about their interests in order to make quality posts.