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Hello,

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

Thanks !

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

--snip-- If you have printer at home, there is nothing bad about that --snip--

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

Which one will last longer ?

And keeping another backup in another place doesn't hurt of course.

Recently I was contacted by someone who lost part of his WIF because of gun oil in safe lock... So, you never know.

You can quite easily check this for yourself: dig up some old school papers, the earlier the better. Then get some old books you have. I expect all of them to still be totally fine.

You say you would type it in a notepad app and then print it. By doing so, there are multiple ways your seed phrase could be stolen. Keyloggers could steal it, or screen capture malware could steal it. Even if you delete the notepad file after you are done,

In my experience:

• Paper, ink and toner will probably last for centuries. Just keep them dry! And keeping another backup in another place doesn't hurt of course.

Meaning if the computer is air gap then this risk doesn't exist

if it is not then storing it in a notepad adds only a small risk on top of already very risky setup.

Absolutely. But very few people actually use properly airgapped computers, and if you have the technical knowledge required to properly airgap a device, then you are almost certainly already aware of the risks of printing a seed phrase over hand writing one and how to mitigate against those risks too.

Makes me wonder how easy it would be to create a bootable Linux disto with nothing but printer drivers so to speak.

It depends on the printer: in my experience, a new printer is terrible to install offline, while many old laserjets work out of the box.
I don't really mind having network drivers, just unplug the cable and disable wifi. If that's not enough: remove the physical card.

If you don't want to go the metal way as others have posted, and use paper make sure it's good paper: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5296179.0

But besides metal detection, is there any other situation or reason paper may be a better choice than stainless steel?

Purchasing an old printer from someone else is a bad, bad idea as you have no idea who and how someone may have messed with it.

Incredible idea! To add a GSM module into old printer, change firmware and start selling it bitcoin forums. Then transmit to a given server the content of suspected prints.

By the way, maybe saving seed as a QRcode could be a partial solution for missing parts?

Don't buy a printer on Bitcointak, buy it on Craigslist. That makes a targeted attack much less likely.

You should know that most printers have coded tracking dots that prints invisible Machine Identification Codes with time, date and printer serial number on paper, with who knows what else to track what you print.

Long time I ago I remember printing some cd covers on my old printer and they all faded a lot, this could be because of cheap ink paint, but you get my point.

I wouldn't worry about yellow dots on an old black and white laser printer, but more imporantly: the tracking is meant to track a printout to a certain printer. Printed seed phrases aren't meant to be shared, and even if someone would get their hands on it, they wouldn't be interested to know which printer you used. They would just take your money.

Some of the documents that we previously received through FOIA suggested that all major manufacturers of color laser printers entered a secret agreement with governments to ensure that the output of those printers is forensically traceable.

I prefer toner over ink.

Printed seed phrases aren't meant to be shared, and even if someone would get their hands on it, they wouldn't be interested to know which printer you used. They would just take your money.

You should know that most printers have coded tracking dots that prints invisible Machine Identification Codes with time, date and printer serial number on paper, with who knows what else to track what you print.

I'm going to disagree with everyone above saying it doesn't really matter and instead say you should absolutely write your seed phrase by hand and not use a printer.*

I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups.

Just another minor point to add to the list of "Why over complicate things with a printer?". Write your seed phrase down, laminate the paper if you so choose, job done.

If you are interested in that subject, maybe you should check that program: https://github.com/dfd-tud/deda
Developed by scientists from Dresden, allows you to detect and modify/remove yellow dots. Or just read a data encoded.

I would also bring up that it is a best practice to store backups of your seed phrase in multiple mediums of storage. So if you do decide to store one copy that is written on paper, you should store another copy of your seed in some medium of storage, such as an encrypted USB stick or encrypted HDD. This way if your ink does fade, you will hopefully still have access to your other backups. 

Hello,

I would like to write down my seed phrase but I am hesitating between writing it on a sheet with a pen or typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?
Which one will last longer ?

Thanks !

I like those invisible ink pencils/pens that expose writing under specific light, and this would be my counter-attack to printer yellow dots  :D

I wish there was some physical switch that disables writing like it was with old magnetic tapes long time ago.

hi, try to memorise it.

I'm not sure what you are proposing using this invisible ink for, but it tends to fade far more quickly than regular ink so would be a poor choice for backing up your seed phrase.

You do get USB drives with a physical write protection hardware switch. There are also WORM (write-once read-many) SD cards, which do exactly what they sound like.

I prefer hand and pencil over toner.

I understand the reasoning behind this, and if that makes you feel safer and/or fits with your threat model, then by all means go ahead. But again, as I discussed above regarding steel back ups, I find this unnecessary.

Lets say that I have three copies of a seed phrase, all hand written on paper (using good quality ink and good quality paper), stored in three separate physical locations. I know that under the reasonable conditions of temperature, humidity, etc., that the copy stored on site in my house will experience, I'm going to get decades out of it before the ink fades to any significant degree. In terms of my offsite back ups, I'm still checking on them at least every few months so I know if they have been compromised or damaged in any way. Even assuming these offsite backups are exposed to such environmental extremes that the ink fades in only a year, I'll find out before they become unreadable and will be able to replace then as needed.

If you have created your seed phrase on an airgapped device then there is little additional risk to creating a back up of your seed phrase on an encrypted USB drive. But very few people do this. If you have, on the other hand, created your seed phrase on a hardware wallet, which thousands if not millions more people do, then creating an encrypted USB drive back up poses a significant additional risk since most people do not have a properly airgapped device with which to do so.

I have several USB devices that suddenly died on me, so I am not considering them a viable option for any important backup.
They can also create errors with operating system if they are encrypted resulting in easy disc format and permanent data destruction.
I wish there was some physical switch that disables writing like it was with old magnetic tapes long time ago.

If you are comparing storing a backup using medium A and medium B, in order to compare the two mediums, you need to assume the same security measures are taken, unless doing so would not be possible.

Every medium of storage has the potential for data loss under certain circumstances, and the only way to mitigate this risk is to use multiple storage mediums.

typing it on my notepad app on my computer and print it ?

But again, as I discussed above regarding steel back ups, I find this unnecessary.

Not only unnecessary; I personally find it worse. Metal detectors can detect those.

If you are comparing which storage medium is more secure once they have been created, then sure, you assume they are both created securely. But in reality, that is not the case. Almost anyone can write down a seed phrase securely - just make sure you do it with nobody else around and no cameras or webcams pointed at what you are doing. Very few people on the other hand can properly create an encrypted USB drive back up from a properly airgapped computer, leaving no traces of what they have done and leaking no information in the process. This is an important point to consider.

Just as if we compare a properly created paper wallet to a properly created software wallet, then the paper wallet is exponentially more secure. However, we know from experience that many people who create paper wallets or import them later do insecurely because they far harder to create and use than a simple software wallet.

This is also mitigated by using multiple storage locations, not just mediums. If the circumstance is, for example, all my paper wallets are vulnerable to fire or water damage (which is no different to a USB drive), then I am far safer storing two paper copies in two physical locations in different states than I am storing a paper and a USB copy a few blocks from each other.

Writing down a seed still requires some kind of computer-like device to generate the seed. If the seed was generated on a HW wallet, then perhaps storing a seed on a USB drive would require an additional computer. However, if you remove that assumption, using a USB drive requires no additional security measures above using a paper backup.

If you compare the potential security risks associated with creating (and using) a paper wallet, and a wallet stored on an encrypted hard drive or USB drive, using a paper wallet would have all the security vulnerabilities associated with a seed stored on an encrypted hard drive or USB drive, and would also have additional security vulnerabilities.

The variable that increases the benefit in your comparison is the distance between backups, not using a single medium of storage.

Does not matter. Laminate.

I store mostly my seed in a safe place because I wrote it down on a piece of paper, printed in a bond paper, and make an online copy to make sure I have different copies in case I miss out or forgot my seed

I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know. Did not make it complicated obviously. Then I lesser printed it and it's fire proof. There are two copies and only these two copies combined will get the full seed.

Or do some DIY.
I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know. Did not make it complicated obviously. Then I lesser printed it and it's fire proof. There are two copies and only these two copies combined will get the full seed.

I feel fairly safe LOL

I bought a metal plate. Changed some words the way I can remember them. They are some synonym or antonym which I know.

Check out the bolded parts. Words that YOU can remember and words that YOU know. With time, your memory can start playing tricks with you. Those who suffer from Alzheimer's can't recognize their children or remember where the bathroom is in their home, let alone remember what antonyms or synonyms they used and where. It might seem like a good idea now, but who knows that the future holds.

Does your family know the words YOU remembered and the antonyms/synonyms YOU used? What if you die or suffer a serious head injury? What if war comes to your doorstep overnight as it did to Ukraine?

Laser printing isnt fireproof. So i'm not sure what you mean. ???

This did not came to my mind. Good point.

I would suggest that if an attacker has been able to either find out enough to figure out the location of two separate back ups, or coerce you to revealing the location of these two back ups, then one or two changed words will not pose much of an issue for them, and they can either work out, brute force, or coerce the correct seed phrase. A far better option would be to use one or more additional passphrases (although again, make sure someone else knows what these are or how to recover them), which provides greater security as well as plausible deniability.

The people I am surrounded with are not much bitcoin savvy not even tech savvy. I am not sure if I am underestimating them but it seems whatever you do, is not enough always. This additional layer is interesting. At this moment I have 3 people who needs to be contact each others to find the full combination. Among three, two are common relative who are very trustworthy to me. The third one will be able to connect with one of the relative to send the message only in case any accident happens to me.

I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?

I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?

From my understanding, this is a 3 out of 3 setup.  I see this as yet another problem.  If the connection between THREE persons is necessary in order to find the full combination, have you considered other possible issues they could encounter in the event of you losing your life?  It is not very rare that after the loss of a loved one relatives start arguing about what the deceased has left behind for the living ones.  Some are more greedy than others.  The trust you have in your relatives may not be equal to the trust these relatives have for each other.  What if you die together with one of these three persons that are NEEDED for the recovery of the seed?  What if the third person will request a premium for sharing their key part of the puzzle?  You have ensured the recovery if an accident happens to YOU, but you have not taken into account the possibility of an accident also happening to one or more of them.

As others have pointed out, I would keep the seed phrase backup as simple yet safe as possible without reinventing the wheel.  I would definitely not rely on humans for the recovery.  There is maybe more vulnerability to three humans having to connect for the combination than there is for an improperly stored paper wallet.  It is enough for one of the three to say 'no' and now everything goes wrong.

I remember Trezor offered a backup method that requires 'x out of y' backup sheets with a variable x or y based on your needs.  I can not remember the name of this method however, although I do think the name was something similar to 'Schnorr'.  Maybe someone with more knowledge can help me with the confirmation that this method is safer and less vulnerable than a 3 out of 3 sheets setup?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Need to study the Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme. I was thinking it was good enough only to split the seed to two person but then I had to involve another person to answer the twisted words. The only thing I am lacking here is one of the person lives with me who is holding half of the seed. Means if in our house by any chance if we both become a victim of a sudden accident then the one who has other half of the seed will not find anything. He can not access the fund.

Card 1: under stomach XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX dust struggle ugly XXXX rocket XXXX hedgehog sponsor produce hello border limb appear mixture XXXX peanut live XXXX
Card 2: under XXXX peace humble weather flip XXXX struggle ugly dinosaur XXXX voyage hedgehog sponsor XXXX hello XXXX limb XXXX XXXX ladder XXXX live normal
Card 3: XXXX stomach peace humble weather flip dust XXXX XXXX dinosaur rocket voyage XXXX XXXX produce XXXX border XXXX appear mixture ladder peanut XXXX normal

It is now involving 5 people.

Need to study the Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme.

Your suggested set up is better because you now have some redundancy in the system, but it still seems overly complicated to me and if it were me I would still prefer to use a 3-of-5 multi-sig set up.

I second the suggestion to use multisig. People take it for granted here in bitcoin but some cryptos can't do it for example ethereum. multisig can increase transaction fees slightly but ... it's no big problem.

This sounds overly complicated.

overly complicated to me

Your suggested set up is better because you now have some redundancy in the system, but it still seems overly complicated to me and if it were me I would still prefer to use a 3-of-5 multi-sig set up.

I am interested to learn how you are handling your crypto.

I really do not want other people except my wife to know how much bitcoin I have. With the x of y multi-sig wallet I can not hide my numbers LOL

I am interested to learn how you are handling your crypto.

My wife knows about all my back ups.

Part of my OPSEC is not sharing the exact details. It feels better that way.

Let's take 3-of-5 as an example since that's what we've been using so far.

Back up 1: Seed A, xpub B, xpub C
Back up 2: Seed B, xpub C, xpub D
Back up 3: Seed C, xpub D, xpub E
Back up 4: Seed D, xpub E, xpub A
Back up 5: Seed E, xpub A, xpub B

Any 3 of those 5 back ups gives you 3 seeds and the other 2 xpubs, allowing you to fully recover the wallet, while preventing any person from viewing the contents of the multi-sig wallet.

My understanding is when you will create a 3-of-5 multi-sig, all five need to have all public master key to get the wallet created first.

Or you are saying I create a 3-of-5 wallet and carefully give them the public key and public master key?

My understanding is when you will create a 3-of-5 multi-sig, all five need to have all public master key to get the wallet created first. Or you are saying I create a 3-of-5 wallet and carefully give them the public key and public master key?

If you are going to create 5 separate wallets, then yes, each wallet needs to be given the other four master public keys in addition to its own seed phrase. There is no need to actually create 5 separate wallets though. I can generate 5 seed phrase, derive the 5 master public keys, use those 5 seed phrases (or master public keys if you want a watch only wallet) to create a single wallet for my own use, and then create the 5 back ups I have specified above and hand them out to 5 friends or relatives. The friends or relatives don't need to create a wallet; they just need to hold on to the back up you give them.

I need all five people alive to get me the full set.

No, you don't. That would be a 5-of-5. The set up you've quoted is a 3-of-5. Pick any 3 of those 5 friends, and you will have at a minimum three seed phrases and master public keys from the other two seed phrases. This gives you all you need to fully restore the wallet and spend the coins from it.

Friend two: Seed2, xpub3, xpub4
Friend three: Seed3, xpub4, xpub5
Friend four: Seed4, xpub5, xpub1

You can derive xpub2 from seed2, which you do have.

You only need the 2 xpubs from the seeds you don't have.

That I do not know how to do. Please drop a link about it to get some idea.

In a 3 - of - 5 wallet don't I need at least three cosigner and all 5 xpubs to restore the wallet.

That I do not know how to do. Please drop a link about it to get some idea.

A bit confuse now. In a 3 - of - 5 wallet don't I need at least three cosigner and all 5 xpubs to restore the wallet.

You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.

-snip-

Now you have confused me. ;D
If I use a 3-of-5 multisig setup and I have all 5 seed phrases, will the wallet accept all those seeds or do I have to import some xpubs manually? I am asking if I am the one who need to get my hands on the xpubs or will the wallet do that itself? I know that everything is derived from the seed, but I always thought you need some xpubs as well without the wallet doing the deriving part. 

piece of paper, I'm sure you have faced the issue of finding an invoice or some paper on which you have written a phone number and now can't find it.
I keep my diary really safe so if you are that kinda person, I would suggest a diary over a piece of paper and please write using a BALL Point Pen

Engrave it on steel & hide it in your home or something. I don’t like seed words written or printed on paper. Too many things can go wrong. You’ll need at least one copy, preferably not in the same location.

why would a diary be any safer than a piece of paper? ~ if anyone ever finds your diary, there will be no doubt that it's something to read through.

But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. Blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains.But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated

If you don't know what you're looking for, you're going to have to read through 100 pages of (potentially) terrible handwriting. If you don't even know there's a seed phrase in it, I'd say it could be safer than a piece of paper with 12 words.

yeah but in that case, the person the diary belongs to might forget how to decode it too. so back to square 1.

whenever you try and obfuscate information inside other information, you run the risk that you forget the encoding process and how to recover the information.

a diary composed of list of meaningless sentences, sounds like a bitcoin private key hiding somewhere. ;D

That's easy: just read through your own handwriting, until you stumble onto 12 words that form an incoherent sentence. It might take you a few hours, but you'll find it.

That's true. And that's why I wouldn't suggest adding your own encoding, just keep the 12 words together. I'll give you a hint: search for "Blanket" on this page :)

That's because I couldn't find a meaningful diary to download as an example :P In real life, if you have a diary already, you can just add the seed words today in the middle of your story. The coming months it will be hidden "deeper".

a reasonably sophistocated attacker would simply get the diary into a text file then search for strings of keywords in the bip 39 wordlist. "blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley" would stick out like a sore thumb. so keeping the 12 words together would be like handing over your seed phrase to an attacker on a silver platter.

It indeed won't help against a targeted attack, but how likely are those?

I'm talking about the millions of burglaries where the thief looks for valuables and wants to get out as quickly as possible again. 12 words under your pillow will be noticed, 12 words in a long written text will be ignored.

~

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

Most theives are cowards, particularly when they are by themselves and you point first, so he wouldn't dare take anything while there's a gun pointed to his head.

a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone. if it has really sensitive personal information or just information the person doesn't want anyone to know. that's why a diary is a liability just as much as a bitcoin private key on a piece of paper is a liability if anyone finds it.

a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone.

can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

Aside from how much thief bother doing it, there's risk of getting tracked or the victim decide it's cheaper to ignore the blackmail.