Bitcoin Forum

So apparently[1] all the remaining Bitcoin ATMs[2] in the UK must shut down because they're not licensed, and don't comply with the AML regulations. I'm not sure what does that mean exactly, but I'm assuming it's because most of these ATMs don't require identity verification unless you're buying/selling large amounts?

Luckily, the UK doesn't have many ATMs compared to the U.S and Canada, so this is not going to impact a lot of people. What are your thoughts on this?
 
[1] https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/cryptocurrencies/2022/03/11/uk-orders-shutdown-of-illegal-bitcoin-cashpoints/
[2] https://coinatmradar.com/country/225/bitcoin-atm-united-kingdom/

It may be the KYC, but my guess that's also about not paying the taxes (or not in full).
As I wrote in WO too, most probably the operators will need a bit of time to get fully legal and then re-deploy the machines, maybe with more KYC enforcement rules, maybe with higher fees too.

That's the thing though the fees are already high as they are right now, increasing them would not attract more users, especially if they're going to enforce KYC. Why would anyone (aside from tourists maybe) use them anymore when exchanges are offering way lower fees.

One of the problems might also be the fact that they are not registered at FCA to offer ATM services



I am no surprised that goverment agencies are getting stricter when it comes to ATMs and any other way that enables you to cash out without doing KYC. In my country BTCATM I use occasionally doesn't ask for KYC no matter the amount you are taking out and I know its just a matter of time when they change that here as well.

Then again, if you remove the advantage of not having to do KYC while keeping high fees (which ATMs usually have) they might become completely obsolete.

This indeed a very good point. Under a certain amount the KYC may still not be necessary (and where some will pay an even higher premium for their privacy), these machines may indeed get to the point they'll have no "customers".
I fear that it will need a certain threshold to be met (meaning under a certain number of monthly customers) to see those operators consider lowering their margins and maybe optimize their cash flow too so the user doesn't pay so much extra. Time will tell...

I’ve used various atms from 2017 - 2019 around the UK - never had any KYC. A few atms wanted some KYC details for over £500 , but you could do multiple transactions up to £500. BUT, the fees were crazy - minimum 7.5%.
I always wondered when regulation would come and so it appears it’s arrived !

I’m not acquainted with the regulations that apply there to Bitcoin ATMs, but it seems that they need to abide by what’s stated here:
https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/financial-crime/cryptoassets-aml-ctf-regime

According to the above link, crypto ATMs are considered as a Cryptoasset Exchange Provider, and must comply with MLR (Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations ) since 2020, but also registered with the FCA by 31/03/2022, after an extension to the registration period (thus the notifications now I presume).

The above link encloses other links to lengthy regulation factors (too lengthy for me to go over properly now), but just to point one out I found interesting:
Extract from page 260 of https://secureservercdn.net/160.153.138.163/a3a.8f7.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/JMLSG-Guidance_Part-II_-July-2020.pdf
CDD is customer due diligence.

Hopefully they will be able to open up again if they are licensed ....  ::)

This is just a money making stunt to milk more money out of the private companies that are offering them. We saw what happened in New York with the Bit License, when the people who introduced it.... made it so complex that you needed consultants to be able to license it.

Guess who quit their jobs and started working as consultants to get paid to help with these BitLicenses ..... yea you guessed it...   ==>  Benjamin Lawsky  ( Superintendent of Financial Services for the New York State Department of Financial Services (NYSDFS)  ::)

Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitLicense

Sounds bad for now but I think in future, ATM owners will find ways to bind themselves with regulations.

Although, it is not the end of either Bitcoin or Bitcoin ATMs, I see a good lesson from it and hope others will see it as well as agree with me. Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash and it works on a decentralized network. So, why do we need a physical machine, location to exchange Bitcoin. It breaks the core idea behind Bitcoin network.

It's even weirder when the first ATMs were installed in London around mid-2014 (http://www.jaguarshoes.com/uks-first-bitcoin-atm/), does that mean they've been installed without a license since then? Compared to my country where bitcoin was only legalized as a commodity asset in 2019 iirc, it actually made regulations (https://finance.detik.com/moneter/d-2681445/bakal-ada-atm-bitcoin-di-bali-bi-tidak-ada-izin) from the beginning regarding the installation of bitcoin ATMs which has also been around for the first time since 2014.

Well if that was the requirements of the Government regulators then I believe everyone should have followed it to remain legal because in reality there's nothing we can do about it they must comply to stay operational and legitimate. Anyway, I think there's no reason to be alarmed about it because it's just a simple Government law enforcement and anyone can buy and use Bitcoin without ATM'so just relax.

Fact is, most of the ATM's around the world might be owned by individuals and not companies which does mean that they do not really have a good profit margin, comparing to the laws, the requirements I do think it's hard for them to keep up with everything. More or so the licence can be a bit too costly for these companies who just have a few customers in a while making it more difficult for them to keep with with the requirements and also pay the fee for the licence.

I do think that the government is making these requirements even more hard for individuals on purpose so that at the end of the day the whole thing would be controlled by companies extracting profits from such network.

I didn't think they had many customers anyway. A lot of the bitcoin atms in the UK are just randomly sat in shops in city centres so they probably have low overheads and I'd also probably consider a bitcoin atm to be more of a toy.

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That being said, I'm pretty sure currency converters still exist where you can put up to $10000/€10000 into a machine and it'll spit out gbp for you - without kyc and those are normally in supermarkets.

I think it is because the bitcoin ATMs would not have been registered with FCA (Financial Conduct Authority) of UK.
If they had been registered with them then they would have been under the radar of MLR (Money Laundering Regulations).
In that case they would have been allowed to keep their businesses running.

As per the AML (Anti-Money Laundering) regime of UK

Reference: https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/financial-crime/cryptoassets-aml-ctf-regime

More like because people can buy or sell using their cash? I cannot think other than good reasons for that though.

Maybe because it is called "Bitcoin ATM" and knowing the characteristics of bitcoin so "KYC" is a requirement, but I don't think how KYC will work in bitcoin ATMs though.

Interesting, I think the shutdown was due to the fact that the fees were unregulated to the point that it has unbridled discretion as to the amount being paid? Not complete sure but all we can do is speculate. Since it has been proven that no KYC function was needed, I think I am leaning towards the regulation of the fees not being faithful to the statutes of UK.

Though I think it is also due to the fact that it may not be licensed perse or it did not comply with the regulations provided by law?

High fees of Bitcoin ATMs seem to be a common issue, and that's why I've never used a Bitcoin ATM. But asking for KYC for over £500 sounds like a pretty strict but somewhat fair requirement already (similar limitations are set for fiat currency exchanges in some countries, that's why I think it's somewhat fair to impose the same on Bitcoin)... Perhaps it's a temporary measure, to close ATMs, work out the regulations, enforce them and allow reopening those ATMs that comply. As others mentioned, apart from the KYC, there could be a problem of owner evading from paying taxes.

I think ?? These atms sort of fell through “gaps” in the regulations and/or were so new that there weren’t any regulations that specifically covered them. Now perhaps the authorities have plugged these gaps and now ‘can’  be regulated ?? This is a bit of speculation!

Through this kinda service there is increased fee as well as this might've been used for tax evasion. If it comply with the proper AML process surely each and every transaction will be taxed. With USA and Canada for any volume of buying the user needs to verify his identity. With that it is risky for money laundering and to escape tax.

I think the government is just up to the point that they want to control everything that could cause the economy, whether it's scamming or money laundering. If they don't have any percent or tax being contributed by the owner of the ATMs, then they would just remove it.

Is there any legal bitcoin ATM there at all?

I thought bitcoin ATM deduct around 10% or more of the total amount of total fund transacted, if so, the fee deducted should be enough to pay for tax after paying for miners fee for each transaction I think. Increasing it will really be discouraging. I have been wondering why bitcoin ATMs have been increasing especially in United States when exchanges can offer low fee, it got to the point that people can use p2p on exchanges now with zero fee.

I do understand that these machines need to actually follow the regulations, but the weird thing is, why were they even placed if they were not following the law to begin with? I mean if they are not properly put there according to the law, should have been taken down or even not even allowed to exists.

It creates the question, did some laws changed? I mean if there were no laws changed, why did it took so long, if a law changed, was it because of bitcoin mainly and should we be scared? All in all, I am fine with no bitcoin teller machines, it is not really that much needed, we can use exchanges very well and easily without a problem anyway and withdraw fiat to our bank accounts.

+1.  A lot of ATM users are choosing no KYC ATM's over exchanges strictly for more privacy.  If an ATM has enforced KYC, it makes no sense to use it anymore unless you just want to avoid moving money through banks.  I think they found a particular niche of users, but they failed in providing them what they needed.  I, for one, would use them but not when they impose exaggerated fees and definitely not when they request my ID and charge me a bulky fee.

With enforced KYC, I am not sure for how long these ATM's will last.  That is, unless people started to avoid banks which in turn would be amazing news for us and for Bitcoin overall.

I think most of them began functioning back when Cryptocurrency regulations were not a thing and Bitcoin ATM's were in a grey area.  Now that they have a legal framework, they can take proper action.  You can not say an ATM is not following the law when there is no framework, right?

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Regards,
PrivacyG

It is kind of funny. There are so many BATM operators saying that it's impossible to comply with the NY regulations (bitlicense) and they can't possibly provide service here in NY.
But there are several who have and are quite successful with them.
People are lazy, it is a lot of work to deal with setting up a Bitcoin ATM. It is also a lot of work to have to comply with all the stupid rules and regulations.
But don't tell me it cant be done.

-Dave

They didn't need one just as candy vending machines
You didn't need the green light from the FCA then as the FCA had no authority over it as there were zero lawyers classifying bitcoin as anything. The downside of regulation, you want it to be recognized as e legal payment instrument, a currency, legal tender then it comes with a ton of requirements for the intermediaries.

The same happened here, one of the first BATM in the city was set up in a pub, a used one bought from somebody in the US, for years he hadn't registered it nor changed his business classification to include it when the legislation finally was put he place he has chosen to replace it with one in a franchise system.

I'm not surprised by the FCA move I'm more surprised how long it took them to finally issue a warning, they had this coming from 2020.


and once they raise the fees on top of what they are charging now they can start packing them and sending them to a recycling station.
They are already milking as much as humanly possible from poeple who are either curious to use one or are forced to use it because of bank restrictions or other issues, going well over 10% would mean on client per week.

The moment you start paying more in fees than you would pay in taxes these things become truly useless.

It is their business, so they should know how to manage it without compromising their profits. As crypto users are looking for alternative ways how to cash out their crypto cheaply, these ATMs may not be favorable in the competition when it comes to fees. So these owners should re-think if they will deploy again these machines. Is it worth or not?

Also, I believe these ATM owners knew that this is about to come, the regulation and all. But they haven't acted on it. So now, it depends on them whether to open it up again or not.

Lack of compliance with the rules for A that is run by the government, maybe that's what makes ATMs closed from the government, which mostly calculates the pros and cons first.  This is a way to enforce ATM so that it is not misused.

The UK has indeed issued a termination order for bitcoin ATMs, maybe one of the concrete reasons is the kyc problem, because the machine will charge a 4% fee, then add another 7% cash exchange fee, so this can cost us and the ATM party who gets it. many advantages, maybe it is for this reason that the British governing body, issued an order to close bitcoin ATMs in the UK, but other problems definitely exist, but for now I don't know any other reason behind closing bitcoin ATMs in the UK.

7.5% fee minimum? That's crazy high. I was using BATM from 2017 up until 2021 (No KYC whatsoever, no matter the amount) and fees were around 5% which for me was already high. The last straw was when they increased fee up to 7%, and Ive been 'mostly avoiding them ever since. I know that owners have a lot of expenses (ATM itself, renting the place, paying taxed etc) but I simply don't wanna give them 7% of my money/BTC. For that amount I'll rather do it some other way and nowadays we don't lack options.



I don't get this part; why is BATM against the "core idea behind Bitcoin network", can you please elaborate more on this? I don't know if you ever used Bitcoin ATMs, but all transactions there are done on blockchain, so for example when you are selling your BTC you have to send it to designated address, wait for a couple of confirmations and then you pick up the money.

I remember someone selling crypto ATM in the UK and mentioning among other things that the business is very profitable and has a fee of about 20%, but I can't find that thread - it may have been deleted for some reason.

Personally, it is strange to me that all these companies have been operating since 2014 and were not regulated in the sense that they had any mechanism that would prevent money laundering. If it had happened in a third-world country, no one would have said anything, but in a society that should be far more organized and regulated, it is really news that attracts attention.

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5% is more than enough to be profitable, but what about one of our companies that has a fee of as much as 10% (AD), and deals with the purchase and sale of gold (I think you know who it is). But if you want cash in hand and without KYC sometimes you just agree to such conditions. For larger amounts, however, I would not agree to such conditions, and fortunately, there are still alternatives.

Yeah I know who you are talking about but luckily never had to use them, and certainly never would with that kind of fee. I understand fees being that high 7-8 years ago, but at this day and age with so many people buying & selling BTC, it's just insane.


For me, BATM is the last resort kind of option, when I don't have any other way to cash out and I need money asap. In the last year or so I had to use it only once and hopefully not anytime soon as it just feels like a punch in the gut when you have to exchange bigger amount with that kind of fee.

I think there is deeper hidden issue with all ATM's and cash, not just Bitcoin ATM's from United Kingdom.
Recently I heard they are shutting down all cash ATM's in Australia in their effort to totally remove cash and move 100% to digital payments with fiat currencies.
I think many countries are preparing for starting CBDS and removing cash during and after global economic crash is one of their possible plans, and they don't want Bitcoin either.
This is just my speculation and observation from watching current situation and last few years in the world.

While it's probably true that governments prefer people not using cash in order to control people more easily, big reason for banks shutting down branches and especially ATMs is due fact that people prefer paying with cards. Rarely anyone I know carries cash around (and if they do its very small amount) and they use cards for even a smallest thing like buying an icecream or beer in a bar.

So in the end we are doing all this by ourselves, no need for some conspiracy plan as you can always count on people doing it the easier way (and paying with card/phone/smartwatch certainly is) no matter the long term consequences.

I am not doing that, and I know more people who prefer paying with cash, that is when we are talking about fiat currencies, not for Bitcoin or other crypto.
Most payments with credit/debit cards I use is for online payments or for ordering stuff from other countries with shipping.
There are ATMs everywhere so you can take cash anytime, but remember what happened recently with countries in war zone stopping ATMs and Banks... only cash or Bitcoin could be used.

It's not conspiracy, it's well known plans they want to remove cash and introduce fully tracked and controlled digital payments, with permanent kill button if you are not a good boy.
What do you think CBDS are for... it's sure not made for people.

What I wanted to say is that governments don't have to put any effort into this; they don't have to ban ATMs or anything of that sort to force people abandon cash as people themselves will do the job for them. Like people are doing with social media, making everyone track them easily.

Regarding Australia, I did read that banks shut hundreds of branches and several thousands of ATM, but I don't think that has to do with any government directive. As we all know, Australia had some of the harshest covid measures so no wonder that people will use ATMs/banks less if they can't even go out and it makes no sense for banks to keep them open if there is no people using them, as they do cost money. Add on that the info I read (don't know if its true) that 80% Australians prefer cards/online payment instead of cash and no wonder this happened to them.

It doesn't make sense to come up with a business but you're not getting anything but it's okay to get less as long as the demand is still there. Crypto ATMs can be convenient to some and they won't mind spending some fees but to the person that budgets well, they can avoid such service.

No one is forced to is it anyway. Before they deploy the ATM, they need to make sure first if crypto is legal and in demand in their area but deploying this kind of ATM useful for someone to get aware of cryptos and they might use it out of their curiosity. No one thought about regulations because cryptos are decentralized but this should not stop them if their business is doing well.

You know whats the best ''ban''?
When you make people to choose themselves to abandon cash with fake benefit carrots while hiding all negative sides in the same time.
It's not that hard if you think about it, just tell them it's for their ''security'' and ''protection''.

Let's face it, all this is totally related with their crazy government decision, and people getting jelly soft... but it's obvious they are just puppets controlled by someone else.
Is anyone else really believes in 2022 that elections and politicians are doing anything more than playing some bad circus show for the masses...not me.
What are people going to do if something happens (not so sci-fi anymore) and there are no electricity to use credit cards, and all cash is banned?

Huh.  I never considered that aspect of bitcoin ATMs--you don't have to pay taxes when you exchange other currencies (like USD-->CAD for instance).  Does the UK consider bitcoin an asset that's taxable as opposed to a strict currency?

Anyway, that could be a reason, but if I had no other info I'd suspect that this has more to do with the KYC issue.  In the US you can only buy small amounts of crypto at an ATM without having to show a drivers license (and some of them you have to even for small amounts if I'm not mistaken), but I don't know how the ATMs are set up in the UK.  I can't imagine the ATM providers aren't paying some sort of tax so they can operate.

I'm with you, man--and I agree with the part of your post I snipped for space as well.  The problem is that the average citizen--and even groups of citizens united for a cause--have very little power over shit like this.  A thousand people could picket in the street over bitcoin ATMs being taken away, and chances are that it wouldn't even be on the news, much less attract the attention of politicians who could reverse the decision.  I'm sure the decision wasn't even made public until it was made anyway.  So yeah, the whole game is fucking rigged.

Of course, people are willing to exchange freedom for security, as proven many times before. And as that old saying goes, those kind of people deserve neither of those. Or something along those lines.


If the whole game is rigged, then there's no point worrying about it as there is absolutely nothing we can do to change it. Then again, I am more in line of something Alan Moore once said (creator of V for Vendetta and Watchmen). Or it maybe just makes me feel better, that I can do something about it. :D

“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory. The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control. The world is rudderless”.

Take a look back at decades of politics in the US and every president has pretty much run on the platform of making things better.  But do things actually get any better?  Some things have, but in general it's the same tired, old story:  the rich and powerful look out for themselves and their cronies and in the process make things much worse for the average person.  This is why there's always, always so much room for improvement.

As far as being helpless to do anything about it, well, that depends on how fast you want change and how much you want to break the law, because the laws are stacked against the average person (or at least enforcement is).  Again I'll reference Andrew Joseph Stack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Austin_suicide_attack), who flew a plane into an IRS office in Texas.  That was a guy who'd had enough of being fucked over and wanted blood.  Did he change anything?  Nope, and that's an extreme example of civil disobedience, but the only thing you or I could do to change any given policy is to vote, protest/petition, or become politicians ourselves--all of those things being useless as far as I'm concerned.

They called that thing at the White House last year an insurrection.  That's a joke if I ever heard one.  Not a funny one, either.