Bitcoin Forum

Actually this epic moment happened in Ukraine, I don't know how difficult it is to get cash there (even using e-money). Someone sells "a Legendary Car" with bitcoin. View more... (https://twitter.com/pete_rizzo_/status/1503816119584501767)

Another milestone that bitcoin really serves as an alternative currency especially in times of urgency, bitcoin is really valuable for someone to survive. Because urgent situations are not just about war, calamities can also have more severe repercussions. I think this is a perfect consideration for any government not to be too strict on bitcoin regulations.

(The point of this thread is not about Ukraine situations specifically, but to the experiences of the people on this story.)

Actually you can argue exactly the opposite - when you are surrounded by devastation with no water, electricity or maybe even food - then it is highly unlikely you'll have access to an internet connection that could allow you to move such crypto funds around easily. Cash is king in that scenario (provided it's not the Russian ruble) but more likely things like gold are useful for bartering your way. Most of the world is privileged to exist in a relatively stable environment, but the sheer devastation that has been wrought on parts of Ukraine mean that it's much easier to transact in physical goods and makes hard cash more important than ever, provided it is relatively low volatility like USD.

You have homework to do. Read this: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjqluXYusz2AhUG1xoKHVKQDRQQFnoECAgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbitcoin.org%2Fbitcoin.pdf&usg=AOvVaw05-4mYD7EyyKjwcHh8i0Vw)

Bitcoin was created as an alternative to the shitty fiat currency system of central banks.

And to the point of the thread, I don't think it's that big of a feat either. In this case they had Bitcoin (I guess on mobile) and no cash, but let's imagine that where they were they didn't have working internet. Or that they had lost or broken their cell phone. If they had taken cash with them instead of hoping to get it from an ATM, it would have been enough to buy the car.

This sentence, mainly the parenthesis, got me thinking of how messed up and manipulated the centralized world is.
Think about it in comparison.
Ukraine is being invaded, it has lost a lot of its infrastructure, its economy doesn't exist, the military is mostly destroyed, millions have fled the country, analysts claim Putin's plan is scorched-earth strategy, ... and yet Ukraine fiat only dumped 5% which makes no sense!
Then we have Russia that is the invader, hasn't lost any infrastructure since there is no attack on Russia!, hasn't lost anything economy wise, the sanctions are mostly jokes that don't really target the economy (eg. sanctioning Russian cats, athletes, porn sites,etc.) and yet Russian fiat tanked 40%!

Sorry to go off-topic but it was an interesting observation that I can only explain as market manipulation (I'd love it if someone could explain any other reason opposite of what I said).

OP, I believe the priority alternative for the entities that matter is Gold. Central Banks will buy Gold with U.S. Dollars because Gold simply has the precedent of acceptance around the world. Humans have valued Gold for more than 5,000 years. BUT, in due course, I'm very confident Bitcoin will be used for international trade for more efficiency. Gold can't be shipped back and forth efficiently.

Pretty simple!

In Russia, everyone tries to get dollars including the government which banned dollars purchases, driving a black market which in some reported cases goes to 300 rubles for a dollar, the government is desperate for foreign currency and the lack of it does what you see happening.
In Ukraine, the country is flooded with billions in aid, poeple received a ton of donations which have to be converted in local currency, doing the exact opposite as it happens in Russia, driving the offset between demand and offer down, just the proposed help to date is about 1/3 of the monetary mass in the country.

Besides, unlike Russia, Ukraine has the definitive backing of two major real global powers, that makeup half of the world GDP, nominal as PPP has zero importance when it comes to currency rates, what Russia has is a fear of backstabbing by the 3rd largest.  ;)

Also, neither Venezuela nor Iran nor Turkey nor Argentina got into a war on home ground, their currencies are still shit.

This time Russia-Ukraine are in this critical condition this is the time when People will get to understand bitcoin the more and the benefits. This is the time people in that region will convert their fiat to bitcoin to make purchase of things for consumption,  this time the bank won't be useful to keep money bitcoin will be use as currency to make things very easy for people.

I mean, sure, it worked, but I can't really see this happening too often. And in this case, it was a car, but can it buy some canned food? A blanket? Pay your electrical bill? In some countries, yes, but it's not as widespread as we would like to think. So, while it can be of help in certain situations, it's not really a solution until it can fully be replaced to buy anything FIAT could, and I am not sure it would happen, I am not sure if it's even envisioned to be that.

As you said, population is still too unaware of the crypto currencies. It's a too volatile market and people don't want to risk their hard-worked money, in a critical situation for buying (doing) what? I don't think it's not possible to get food, pay bills using BTC. Maybe it can be helpful in a niche market, but it will not spread among all the country.

The real purpose for which bitcoin is being innovated is getting fulfilled. To overcome the flaws in the fiat system blockchain evolved as a solution with the bitcoin developed over the platform. Initially people are not in a situation to believe it as an alternate to the fiat, but it was always termed as a solution to launder money and as a value storage asset for illegal and gambling needs. Slowly this gained importance as an investment.

With the ongoing war the usage of bitcoin peaked as it is the only solution with which Russia is able to escape the sanctions. Ukraine on the other side have legalized crypto and the outcome is the incident mentioned by OP.

This is a country specific matter due to which there is an influx of bitcoin purchase transactions. But if I try to find out the same trend worldwide, I don't see any credible source of information that says bitcoin has become the world's favorite reserve currency for individuals.

Nope! Bitcoin has not yet reached that level. The capital protection leader is still gold and other precious metals. There's no proof that majority of the population is buying bitcoin for the unforeseen emergencies. What's happening in Ukraine, is an exception!

One has to realize the governments and banks are not going to go away anytime soon. Government systems and banking systems have been around as long as gold. Thousands of years. Sure there can be a change in government and bank systems. They are not going to go away. Some banks are now getting into crypto as well. Same with governments.  Some governments more in the future will make BTC as a legal tender. Probably happen.  There will always be some sort of centralization in everything.

Keep in mind., for many people , they have more confidence in using a bank for their finances vs using a private company. Private company being like for example Binance, Kraken, Coinbase etc for their finances. Even if more people used crypto as their main finance, many would have more confidence to a bank.

Just the way it is.

Yes a few years ago, the banks shunned crypto as it would cause havoc in their platform. Since most banks only dealt in fiat and precious metals.

Now the banks are looking more into crypto. Which is probably smart. As now they can deal with that system and keep their  business platform.

That how it is.

More or less we are just moving from one money system to another. The higher up control will always be there at some point.

Bitcoin becomes a favorite asset for people when the more of them realize how fast fiat currencies lose their purchasing power because of over printing from governments.

It does not come from the pandemic only. I do know the pandemic makes inflation worse globally but it is not a main reason for it. The pandemic fortunately reveals the truth about governments, central banks and fiat currencies that do bring more proofs for people to realize value of Bitcoin.

The war in Ukraine is another tip of iceberg and not the main reason why Bitcoin has become more popular and more widely accepted globally.

Bitcoin is as we speak has gradually started showcasing it's user case , And this why it was created initially to solve the problems that fiat currencies could not solve and this is one of them [inflation hedge] in the time of geopolitical challenge ,Economic challenge etc.
Satoshi forsaw all this problems facing the world at large and hence created Bitcoin to become a safe heaven like during era of Gold.

It had worked for Ukraine when infras were destroyed where could be data centers, banks and other finance related buildings were operating that led them to stop operation so using and owning cash there is truly a big problem.

In times like this, it's proven that bitcoin has remained strong and usable and it's also a place to save wealth by those affected people. It's an all-in-all asset that can be considered when the bad and worst times come like a war.

                 While buying the car with bitcoins in that situation is a good thing, it is not such a huge achievement. But regardless, an achievement is an achievement which helps worldwide mass adoption. The thing is that even with the situations in Ukraine, bitcoins or any crypto currency is not a solution unless you are leaving the country. This is because there won't be any way to access your cryptos when electricity goes out. You'd be hetter off carrying cash, jewelry or anything that has value which you can trade with necessities.

It's an interesting story, and I do believe that the war motivated the increased usage of Bitcoin. However, this only works under fairly peaceful conditions and in places with stable Internet connection. Local fiat is currently the most handy thing to have in small towns and generally in places which are under blockade or where electricity is down because of the war. In other places, getting cash is often very challenging (because the ATMs are running out of it), but paying with card is almost always an option. I'm glad they found a way to buy a car with Bitcoin, but they said it was in central Ukraine, and central Ukraine is one of the least affected areas by the war so far.

But wouldn't the Russian government start avoiding accumulation of U.S. Dollars currently that they are sanctioned from using it? All Dollars held within Russia and in Russian banks are essentially "erased" from the ledger.

You don't need to send cash to Ukraine, because Ukraine's electronic payment systems are fully operational. If a person refuses to accept them and wants cash, chances that they will accept Bitcoin are actually pretty low. If you think that a 50 y.o. dude from Ukraine who only uses the Internet for Facebook and Telegram will be interesting in listening in a lecture about the benefits of Bitcoin while being in the middle of war trying to sell his car to the highest bidder, you are a bit unrealistic.

Still, it's nice that Bitcoin exists and is being used and is helpful in extreme situations. Just don't think that this is a common occurrence.



You are drinking some Russian state kool-aid if you think that Ukraine is on a verge of defeat and destruction.


Russian trade with the West got obliterated while Ukraine's trade will only ramp up. Again, if you think that the current sanctions are a joke, it only means you're consuming Russian propaganda in large quantities.

No, money held by the central reserve and their own banks in their OWN accounts and not overseas accounts as collateral is not touched by these sanctions and the Russian government needs dollars because it has debts to pay, one was just the other day, it has to pay the debt of the companies that are owned by the state, the sum is of around 150 billion, that's why they had reserves in foreign nations, to back up this debt as collateral, not because Russia managed miraculously to set aside 30% of their GDP in savings in 3 years.
If they can't service the debt there will be a default, and if their own companies can't do that either there will be bankruptcies, and assets are going to be seized.
It's the USSR all over again, what other choice do they have than getting dollars? Do you think China will accept rubles for their stuff?  ;D

Yes Bitcoin has been around for few years now but it has not reached the level of global acceptance. To most of us cryptocurrency transactions are easy to understand but it is very complicated to most people, even the US government is still studying the system. In Africa for example were a larger part of the population has no access to education or the internet. It would take decades for cryptocurrencies to penetrate some financial market. Like the founder of bitcoin said: There is much work to be done.

They are sanctioned from using the Dollar, but they are still required to pay their debts in Dollars? Wouldn't that make the lender, for receiving payments from Russian companies/financial institutions, be breaking U.S. orders under the sanction? I believe the U.S. have also sanctioned Russian Gold.

My viewpoint truly is, I believe the sanction might hurt the Dollar more in the future, because other nation-states might start losing trust in the cabal behind the U.S. Dollar.

Crypto in general became one for me years ago. I have been working freelance for many years now, a lot of years actually and I can tell you that I have been paying for many things as well. I always wanted my own project and that resulted with me spending money by paying people all around the world as well, other freelancers and domains and hosting and servers and software as well.

So, I have spent and earned crypto for years and that proves to me that I never really needed fiat. Sure I still use fiat in my regular life, but that is because I have to, not because I prefer to. Who would prefer fiat if they could spend crypto everywhere? The amount of people who own fiat would drop significantly in that case.

this is still the setback of crypto, you can't easily use it as direct payment to your local shops or merchants. so you still need to convert your crypto to your fiat if you want to spend it. but i do agree, if you have the skills, you can really earn good money via this industry. you just know how to. nowadays, freelancers are growing in numbers because we are discovering a lot of jobs that you can do at the comfort of your home. this has been boosted by this pandemic when most of us are forced to do your work at home as much as possible.
but still, even if you have crypto willing to spend for your daily needs, you can't find a lot of these shops to accept crypto. this i think is still work-in-progress, as more merchants are now trying to integrate crypto in their payment system as part of becoming more digital or additional options to their consumers..

The sanction against using the dollar is more theoretical, the actual way it works is that they can't issue more debt in dollars nor can they ask for financing through most financial systems. But nobody is stopping them to pay from their bank's accounts to some bank in China 1 billion dollars, that's why I told you on the other topic, sanctions don't work by chopping somebody's hand off so he can't play tennis anymore, it's more like nobody wants to play tennis with him at all.
Plus Russian companies' debt and governmental debt can't be sanctions since it's actually not theirs anymore, for example, if the IRS would seize all your goods and funds and bank accounts, they won't cancel your mortgage, that would still be up and running.

As for the second part, I don't know how old you are, but my father when he was a child had nothing else to listen than to all that communist propaganda about the fall of the dollar and look now, 60 years have passed, and the dollar is going strong but people still say it will ...what?
Russians are desperate for getting dollars and you think this will hurt it? Lol.

With the world right now is uncertain, you don't know when your country will become like Ukrain or like Russia facing sanctions from various industries. It's better for us to save some money and convert it to bitcoins in case we suffer like the current state of Ukraine where people are struggling to withdraw their money back because of the long line and they're having some hard time transporting it. When you have most of it in bitcoins, you are just chilling because you already know that this would happen and you are already prepared.

Bitcoin has been created as an alternative to Fiat Money its true.  Bitcoin is very popular and and easy use to anytime  anywhere. But then it is meaningless. When, you have Bitcoin, but your phone will not have internet connection. But when there is an internet connection, Bitcoin will act as a valuable currency in the absence of money

The assumption is that the buyers in this case are tourists (they speak English) who are trapped in a warring country and want to get out of the city immediately but there is no public transportation operating in the middle of the conflict. In this situation where cash and e-money are needed more by local residents so that the demand for exchanging foreign currency into local currency has reached the bank's daily transaction threshold (possibly over-demanded), I don't think there is an alternative currency to get something tourists need quickly except for a new currency which was just legalized.

I believe it MIGHT hurt the sanctity of the U.S. Dollar, I never said that it will definitely hurt it. Do you believe that the United States' actions will strengthen the other nation-states' trust on the cabal behind the Dollar? It might weaken that trust, which was the main point.

You can actually. In El Salvador they can now use their crypto directly for buying anything locally, that is because cryptos on their country is now a legal tender. We just need to wait though for our country to become one of it. For sure it will happen to other countries too soon and not just on the El Salvador.

For countries that only adopted bitcoin normally, why can't they use a service that converts crypto to fiat on their shop so that people that prefers crypto can still use their cryptos directly? I think that was still allowed. If they didn't do it yet, your best chance to spend your crypto is via online shops. There are have lots of them now.

bitcoin has proved time over time that it is more than just a cryptocurrency. It is something that people trust at time of emergencies.
It is more like a safe haven for many people and as time goes by more number of people will start believing bitcoin for what it is and what value it brings to them.
US has also started the preparation of regulating cryptocurrencies. Many other countries have also realized the fact that its impossible to completely ban cryptocurrencies so why not regulate it instead.
Good times are only getting started.

The fact that you could even tax it makes it even more illogical to ban it as well. Like if you could just tax it, get money from the people who use crypto, that means we are talking about making a good income. I have been paying crypto taxes for 4 years in my nation right now, and I have to say if they banned it, they would have lost out on all of that income from me, and that is just me, there are over 1.5 million people investing or at least in one point owned crypto.

It means that even if they all paid just one thousand dollars overall (some paid A LOT more, some paid less) that makes it 1.5 billion dollars yearly, and in the last 4 years (since we started legalizing and taxing crypto) that would have made it 6 billion dollars. Seriously, why ban it when you can make that kind of money?

You’re right if there’s a such thing as a silver liner when it comes to the Russian / Ukrainian war is that it showed the importance and the uniqueness of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency and how it can come in hand when it comes to not being able to access your countries fiat services. I am kind of surprised that values didn’t go up a bit more than they did Over this time but they will.

Bitcoin is truly an alternative currency that helps even in a pinch. As you said about the Ukrainians who took advantage of Bitcoin during the war because of access using fiat currency. This proves that Bitcoin is indeed an alternative currency that can really help even in dire circumstances. The more you come here, the more it appears that Bitcoin is indeed useful and really helps, it is appropriate that people look at Bitcoin. Although full of risks, Bitcoin also brings many benefits.

Hmmmm as innovations increases new is come,however there is what we called cashless policy now day if bitcoin come to stay as castless transaction it will still fine but there are some primitive people that   will not bitcoin but the prefer cash

People are now realizing the good features of bitcoin as the advantages of using it has been seen during this pandemic and war crisis. As you don't need any third party just to send crypto to anyone at any part of the world, the experience is borderless, while enjoying the cheap and fast transactions. And now, many people are changing their perspectives towards bitcoin. Before a lot are thinking that bitcoin is a scam, fraud or whatever you may call it. But with the participation of the government like in El Salvador and big companies like PayPal, people are seeing that it is not the problem of the bitcoin itself but the people who are trying to use it to deceive gullible people.

This is another reason why we really don't see these days a huge drop in the price of Bitcoin. I believe that the volume now is really huge and a lot of people using Bitcoin especially when the pandemic started, Bitcoin was really useful during those times and that's the time how most people appreciate the use case of Bitcoin.

for the matter of fraud, it may be from other parties outside bitcoin who are in the name of bitcoin. but at this time we do admit that bitcoin can be an alternative payment due to the ukraine war. in this case bitcoin is an example that it can be used in unsupportive situations, but globally the problem comes from the government with all its considerations, so most countries have not been able to legalize it

Ofcourse they can. Generating income from taxing income from cryptocurrencies is a great way for governments to grab a decent amount from the citizens of their country.
But at the same time if they are taxing cryptocurrencies then they will also have to come out with laws and policies to regulate cryptocurrencies to protect funds of their people.
This is where many governments are struggling in my opinion. There are no clear laws in many countries for cryptocurrencies including my country India.

People are doubting in bitcoin that what if it was a scam because bitcoin was not known back in time and almost all the people that use bitcoin that time are scammers and criminals. They use bitcoin as a medium on the dark market but now that bitcoin is not new anymore, lots of merchants have also opened up and this proves that bitcoin is clean.

Not only this time but bitcoin is really an alternative payment next to fiats or banks, that is why those that are affected in wars didn't hesitate to use bitcoin to accept donations because they are having a problem with traditional payment system. No matter how strict a government, they will always give an exception when they are in trouble.

The only thing that prove the people trust in bitcoin from the investment on bitcoin on 38k dollars.So the demands started to increase from that price.After the huge struggle the price of bitcoin had reached the value of 44k dollars.It’s not an easy things.From the war begins,the price of bitcoin reduced due to the panic selling.It takes some time for the recovery of the price.

I have read the stories of people that had to survive during a war for months and even years, and stuff that has no utility very quickly losses any purchasing power and you have to either barter or offer some useful skills that you may have, stuff like food, alcohol, medicines, toilet paper, cigarettes, candles and other consumables become incredibly valuable, while cash and gold become useless, now if you happen to accumulate a lot of cash or gold and survive the war you could make significant profits, but under those circumstances most people only think about the short term, as they do not have any idea if they are going to live to see another day.

I'm not so sure about this, because during a war, the first targets are the communication channels, besides the military centers. It means the enemy will destroy television and internet signal towers plus infrastructure. It means without internet connection bitcoin is almost useless as currency. When cash fails in scenarios like this, people appeal to barter system or start begging for donations.

The sad part is people are realising the true importance of bitcoin at this time when the conditions are very bad in the war affected regions.When there is no cash to afford the food and other basic amenities bitcoin is helping a lot to the people and say cash is not available and have gone too low in the value compared to USD standards.But on the other side btc have helped many as the exchange volumes have increased in both countries.Ukraine has also passed bill to consider it as legal tender and maybe this is where people see it as positive thing to adopt.

Cryptocurrency will be used not only as an alternative but also as a major currency in the future and then there will be no paper money.
And what has happened here is the success of this currency. They went through a moment when they had no hand work so they had to use Bitcoin as an alternative. And this is the advantage of cryptocurrency that you can make purchases wherever you are with a net connection.

Generating income from ANYTHING is great for the governments. I mean they are always lacking money, they always have corruption and use the taxes that we pay them to get themselves and their families richer, which means that they always need more money to actually help us.

If you pay them 100 bucks, 80 will go to them and 20 will go to helping us, if you pay them 120, 90 will go to them and 30 for helping us. So, it does help us to pay more taxes... in a horrible way. So, governments will always need more taxes paid just so they could get richer and also still help us more. With this new crypto taxing, they could definitely fill their pockets and maybe build a school or two.

Yes, eventually it is a blessing compared to FIAT money, when you live in a country where your local currency is getting lower and lower in price and its value is more and more null, the acquisition of foreign FIAT money is very difficult, because every time it continues going up, then when you have BTC it becomes the only alternative that is above any currency, even if the price of BTC goes down it doesn't matter, because with respect to the local currency you are still earning, for countries with high inflation things They work like this, perhaps in countries with economies with better liquidity and with inflation less than 5%, things are somewhat different, however, BTC often represents the best way to invest so that you can save on lottery prizes.

Crypto will always be an alternative that can exist alongside fiat, but cannot become major currency. I don't think it will happen in the future, although we have seen the benefits that cryptocurrencies brought to Ukraine during the war. Crypto still have certain weaknesses without internet then cryptocurrencies and bitcoin would suddenly become useless in this situation, so fiat is still necessary in our lives.

of course this will also be a solution if the cash transaction fails then we can switch to bitcoin or digital currency, with an unlimited withdrawal or deposit process of course this is the main attraction for miners to continue to be in the crypto world for a period of time long, so that bitcoin can provide convenience in carrying out a transaction if it fails to process cash

Where bitcoin really shines is in your ability to move your wealth when you are running away from a country that is at war, as an example during the second world war many Jewish people began to run away from the countries that were invaded by Germany and they had to leave everything behind in order to try to save their lives, however with something like bitcoin you can move a significant portion of your wealth without bringing any unwanted attention to yourself, however if you get trapped in the middle of a war zone without any way out then bitcoin just like fiat and gold will become pretty much useless under those circumstances.

and in the next years ? transaction will ne ore easier in crypto this is why sooner we will see more and more adopter will come and support will increase eventually .  and also it will not be a alternative besides crypto will be the next big thing that will explode in terms of payment and transactions .
expect that to come any time soon , maybe in the next year or at least 5-10 years from now when the world accept this as currency and not another scam word to explore .