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Economy => Economics => Topic started by: Hydrogen on May 02, 2022, 04:39:58 PM



Title: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Hydrogen on May 02, 2022, 04:39:58 PM
Quote
Could you grow enough food to feed yourself and your family if you wanted to—or needed to?

Gardening is often pitched as a relaxing, therapeutic activity—and it is relaxing and therapeutic! But it’s also a sign of how advanced society has become that we can regard growing food as a charming hobby instead of an absolute necessity. On the one hand, that’s a clear sign of mankind’s mastery over the world. On the other, it’s left us remarkably dependent on a system of farming and delivery logistics that has been shown to be distressingly fragile.

Anyone who has ever successfully grown a tomato plant in their backyard has wondered if they could go “off-grid,” grow their own food, and be done with their local supermarket. The answer is yes, but that’s the wrong question. The question isn’t whether it’s possible—the question is how. It’s all about the logistics: How much space do you need to grow enough crops to feed you and your family? Math will help you figure this one out.

Calculate the necessary square footage

If you’ve only ever gardened for fun, or to supplement your store-bought groceries with some tasty home-grown treats, you might not be aware of just how much space is required to feed someone. You may have noticed that family farms are kind of large, and there’s a very good reason for that (though some of that space was traditionally given over to livestock and draft animals). Estimates vary. Different crops require different amounts of space, for example, and some gardening gurus estimate you’d need at least 4,000 square feet per person, with more space allotted for stuff like lanes between crops.

Most of us don’t have 4,000 square feet to dedicate to gardening, but you probably don’t need quite that much as long as you’re efficient. A good rule of thumb is that you need about 200 square feet per person for a self-sustaining garden. So if you’re a family of four, figure you’ll need about 800 square feet, or a space about 20x40 or 10x80.

That’s ... still a lot of space, especially if you’re in an urban setting. The key is planning your garden out, because different crops take up different amounts of space, and if you’re going to live off of those crops you have to include a wide variety of plants for nutritional completeness. Your garden will need to include these:


  • Proteins. If you’re going to survive on a garden, you won’t be eating meat. While nuts are an excellent source of protein, nut trees take up a lot of space, so make sure you plant beans. Growing lima beans on poles will require about six square feet of garden per person. Snap beans will take about 10 square feet and soybeans will eat up about 30 square feet.
  • Carbohydrates. You’ll need some starch in your diet. The good news is that you have a lot of options. Beans will pull double duty here, in fact. Potatoes will require about 25 square feet per person, corn will require about 30 square feet per person, squash will need about six square feet, and peas need about eight square feet.
  • Vitamins. A complete diet requires a load of nutrients beyond protein and carbs, so plan on including stuff like spinach (eight square feet per person), broccoli (eight square feet), kale (one square foot), or cabbage (10 square feet).
  • Fruits. You can live on vegetables alone, but having some fruits is a great idea. Melons are great (six square feet per person), as are pumpkins (10 square feet), strawberries (10 square feet), and watermelons (six square feet).
  • Medicinals & Spices. Some plants don’t offer much nutritional value, but make life a lot better by providing seasoning or health benefits. Some examples include cilantro (one square foot per person), garlic (four square feet), onions (eight square feet), and mustard (two square feet).

If you grow every plant we just discussed for a family of four, you’d need a garden space of approximately 754 square feet of garden—so the 200 square-foot rule tracks pretty well.

Here are the caveats to surviving on your own food

There are a few caveats here, or aspects of a survival garden you really need to think about before you decide that just because your backyard is precisely 200 square feet you’ll be able to pull this off. First of all, the list above isn’t comprehensive and only included a few examples. You might want things like carrots, okra, or cauliflower. This garden size calculator will give you some idea of how much square footage each crop requires. When planning your garden, the main rule is this: Grow stuff you want to eat. Growing food you despise is no way to live.

Other things to consider:

  • Variety. Keep in mind that growing just enough food to survive on will wear on you over time. Sure, you could go full Mark Watney and try to live on potatoes alone (and you just might be able to with some supplements thrown in), but if you think entering year two of nothing but potatoes won’t be depressing, you’re kidding yourself. Keep in mind that variety is the spice of life, and diet variety will require more square footage.
  • Seeds. Make sure you always select open pollinated seeds so you can recover seeds from your crops and re-plant.
  • Spoilage. Growing food is a battle against nature. The moment your crops start to grow, hungry things will show up to eat them in the middle of the night, bugs will nest in them, and diseases will somehow find them. You’re going to need a margin of error if you’re going to live off your garden—and you will likely need a year or two to figure out what not to do and make adjustments to your plan.
  • Design. There are many ways to lay out and manage a survival garden. Square foot gardens use raised beds and a grid system to maximize space, keyhole gardens are drought-resistant, and homestead gardens utilize a farm-like layout (and require more space). When planning a survival garden, look at the space you have and consider what kind of garden design will maximize your yield.

A survival garden can bring a lot of relief to your pocketbook and a lot of independence to your life—if you have the necessary space. Hey, no one said going off-grid was easy.


https://lifehacker.com/how-much-garden-you-would-need-to-100-survive-on-1848829190


....


This source claims an average of 200 square feet needed to produce adequate food for 1 person. Which conflicts with many claiming its impossible to grow sufficient food on 1 acre of land, which is 43,560 square feet.

I think it assumes the usage of chemical fertilizers, which are increasing in price due to them being manufactured from natural gas. While it may be possible to grow food in a reasonably small space, the dollar cost of soil, dirt, containers, compost, seeds, plants, mulch. And the man hours of care necessary could make the bar to entry prohibitive for many.

Money, experience and time appear to be the largest obstacles to solve for the world to fully embrace independent & organic food production.



Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: kaya11 on May 02, 2022, 04:59:42 PM
This is a good source for starters and compute necessary needs to start growing your foods. World War is possible and we could imagine food getting scarce so we better get ready before it really happens. We have more than 200 sq feet of garden, our back yard is full of greens. My father graduated in college of Agriculture and he started farming months ago. We have so many vegetables at the back yard and already started harvesting it and directs to kitchen for cooking. It is a nice feeling when you are eating the foods you grow. As of now we are planning to grow more and planning to plant avocado trees and mangoes. We just have to be patient, and make it possible with hard work. We hardly use any fertilizers, all we have is free animal dung and banana peels and others. Water is also abundant, especially this season which is rainy, we don't have to water them and have it easy.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Captain Corporate on May 02, 2022, 05:18:45 PM
Are we really sure this calculation is correct? I mean I haven't given a try myself so I can't say if it is correct or not but I have had gardens before, bigger than 754 square feet, one of them MUCH bigger than that, and I never really considered it. I mean don't get me wrong maybe I have no talent in it, or maybe this requires advanced farming techniques that I didn't consider, but it looks quite difficult. On the other hand, with the way hydroponics are going, it will be quite possible to grow enough food to make it "profitable" for people in a small room and still call it a business, we just need the equipment to get more affordable. So with that kind of tech, maybe this is possible in such a small space.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Freeesta on May 02, 2022, 06:49:53 PM
I think that such things should be done by specialists. What can you grow? What food? To grow something you need to work in the garden all day. Maybe bad weather and then the crop will not grow. It could be a hurricane, a tornado, a drought, anything, in some countries it may be sudden frost. I stand for the fact that every case should be done by a professional. And what seems simple is not always the case.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: 24Kt on May 02, 2022, 07:35:59 PM
Are we really sure this calculation is correct? I mean I haven't given a try myself so I can't say if it is correct or not but I have had gardens before, bigger than 754 square feet, one of them MUCH bigger than that, and I never really considered it. I mean don't get me wrong maybe I have no talent in it, or maybe this requires advanced farming techniques that I didn't consider, but it looks quite difficult. On the other hand, with the way hydroponics are going, it will be quite possible to grow enough food to make it "profitable" for people in a small room and still call it a business, we just need the equipment to get more affordable. So with that kind of tech, maybe this is possible in such a small space.

I can agree with you here. There are some people who can grow more than what they need and still make a business out of it. And just like the hydroponics method that you mentioned. Many people are already doing this type of gardening method. You don't need big space to survive. This is very subjective as it depends on the capability of the person when it comes to gardening. So some will say that they need big space to produce something. But if you are in a tight position and financial budget, you can make your small space a very productive one.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: hatshepsut93 on May 02, 2022, 09:48:11 PM
Money, experience and time appear to be the largest obstacles to solve for the world to fully embrace independent & organic food production.

Where would people who live in cities grow their food in such manner? And don't say "on rooftops".

This whole separation of labor thing allowed humanity to achieve everything that we have now, and everyone growing their own food would just result in us living in stone age again.

Also, in the last years of the Soviet Union a lot of its people did grow their food on dachas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacha) - people didn't do it because it's a fun activity, but because the economic situation pressured them to do so. I don't think that any country in the West is dire enough to massively shift to such system.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: adaseb on May 03, 2022, 03:06:02 AM
This will not work for many people. Take people who live in New York City for example. They don’t own a home with a large garden. They can’t grow any food and vegetables.

Another issue is the weather. Many fruits and vegetables can only grow in certain climates. So you can’t rely on growing your own food year round if you live where it’s cold in the winter which is how it is with many people.



Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: philipma1957 on May 03, 2022, 03:24:33 AM
Quote
Could you grow enough food to feed yourself and your family if you wanted to—or needed to?

Gardening is often pitched as a relaxing, therapeutic activity—and it is relaxing and therapeutic! But it’s also a sign of how advanced society has become that we can regard growing food as a charming hobby instead of an absolute necessity. On the one hand, that’s a clear sign of mankind’s mastery over the world. On the other, it’s left us remarkably dependent on a system of farming and delivery logistics that has been shown to be distressingly fragile.

Anyone who has ever successfully grown a tomato plant in their backyard has wondered if they could go “off-grid,” grow their own food, and be done with their local supermarket. The answer is yes, but that’s the wrong question. The question isn’t whether it’s possible—the question is how. It’s all about the logistics: How much space do you need to grow enough crops to feed you and your family? Math will help you figure this one out.

Calculate the necessary square footage

If you’ve only ever gardened for fun, or to supplement your store-bought groceries with some tasty home-grown treats, you might not be aware of just how much space is required to feed someone. You may have noticed that family farms are kind of large, and there’s a very good reason for that (though some of that space was traditionally given over to livestock and draft animals). Estimates vary. Different crops require different amounts of space, for example, and some gardening gurus estimate you’d need at least 4,000 square feet per person, with more space allotted for stuff like lanes between crops.

Most of us don’t have 4,000 square feet to dedicate to gardening, but you probably don’t need quite that much as long as you’re efficient. A good rule of thumb is that you need about 200 square feet per person for a self-sustaining garden. So if you’re a family of four, figure you’ll need about 800 square feet, or a space about 20x40 or 10x80.

That’s ... still a lot of space, especially if you’re in an urban setting. The key is planning your garden out, because different crops take up different amounts of space, and if you’re going to live off of those crops you have to include a wide variety of plants for nutritional completeness. Your garden will need to include these:


  • Proteins. If you’re going to survive on a garden, you won’t be eating meat. While nuts are an excellent source of protein, nut trees take up a lot of space, so make sure you plant beans. Growing lima beans on poles will require about six square feet of garden per person. Snap beans will take about 10 square feet and soybeans will eat up about 30 square feet.
  • Carbohydrates. You’ll need some starch in your diet. The good news is that you have a lot of options. Beans will pull double duty here, in fact. Potatoes will require about 25 square feet per person, corn will require about 30 square feet per person, squash will need about six square feet, and peas need about eight square feet.
  • Vitamins. A complete diet requires a load of nutrients beyond protein and carbs, so plan on including stuff like spinach (eight square feet per person), broccoli (eight square feet), kale (one square foot), or cabbage (10 square feet).
  • Fruits. You can live on vegetables alone, but having some fruits is a great idea. Melons are great (six square feet per person), as are pumpkins (10 square feet), strawberries (10 square feet), and watermelons (six square feet).
  • Medicinals & Spices. Some plants don’t offer much nutritional value, but make life a lot better by providing seasoning or health benefits. Some examples include cilantro (one square foot per person), garlic (four square feet), onions (eight square feet), and mustard (two square feet).

If you grow every plant we just discussed for a family of four, you’d need a garden space of approximately 754 square feet of garden—so the 200 square-foot rule tracks pretty well.

Here are the caveats to surviving on your own food

There are a few caveats here, or aspects of a survival garden you really need to think about before you decide that just because your backyard is precisely 200 square feet you’ll be able to pull this off. First of all, the list above isn’t comprehensive and only included a few examples. You might want things like carrots, okra, or cauliflower. This garden size calculator will give you some idea of how much square footage each crop requires. When planning your garden, the main rule is this: Grow stuff you want to eat. Growing food you despise is no way to live.

Other things to consider:

  • Variety. Keep in mind that growing just enough food to survive on will wear on you over time. Sure, you could go full Mark Watney and try to live on potatoes alone (and you just might be able to with some supplements thrown in), but if you think entering year two of nothing but potatoes won’t be depressing, you’re kidding yourself. Keep in mind that variety is the spice of life, and diet variety will require more square footage.
  • Seeds. Make sure you always select open pollinated seeds so you can recover seeds from your crops and re-plant.
  • Spoilage. Growing food is a battle against nature. The moment your crops start to grow, hungry things will show up to eat them in the middle of the night, bugs will nest in them, and diseases will somehow find them. You’re going to need a margin of error if you’re going to live off your garden—and you will likely need a year or two to figure out what not to do and make adjustments to your plan.
  • Design. There are many ways to lay out and manage a survival garden. Square foot gardens use raised beds and a grid system to maximize space, keyhole gardens are drought-resistant, and homestead gardens utilize a farm-like layout (and require more space). When planning a survival garden, look at the space you have and consider what kind of garden design will maximize your yield.

A survival garden can bring a lot of relief to your pocketbook and a lot of independence to your life—if you have the necessary space. Hey, no one said going off-grid was easy.


https://lifehacker.com/how-much-garden-you-would-need-to-100-survive-on-1848829190


....


This source claims an average of 200 square feet needed to produce adequate food for 1 person. Which conflicts with many claiming its impossible to grow sufficient food on 1 acre of land, which is 43,560 square feet.

I think it assumes the usage of chemical fertilizers, which are increasing in price due to them being manufactured from natural gas. While it may be possible to grow food in a reasonably small space, the dollar cost of soil, dirt, containers, compost, seeds, plants, mulch. And the man hours of care necessary could make the bar to entry prohibitive for many.

Money, experience and time appear to be the largest obstacles to solve for the world to fully embrace independent & organic food production.



Frankly you need chickens that lay eggs 🍳.

And many places wont let you have chickens.

I am a diabetic and need high protein low carb.

depending on what doctor you listen to maybe 25% of the human race needs high protein low carb diet.

I have 6000 feet to grow if I want. I grow basil , figs , tomatoes 🍅. Oregano.

Maybe  use 300 feet to grow.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Lucius on May 03, 2022, 02:17:48 PM
I grow organic vegetables and to a lesser extent some fruits (mostly raspberries, strawberries, chokeberries, currants) and I will just say for a start that it is not easy to produce healthy food. I do not use any chemicals in my cultivation, nor tap water that is full of chlorine, which is very harmful to plants. I also collect seeds every year, and I do the selection of the best seeds that again come from organic untreated seeds.

All this requires a lot of time, from planting seedlings already during the winter, taking care of it that lasts until spring when they are planted in the garden. Since the climate has changed, we now have to protect the plants with nets (hail&strong sun), which is an additional investment.

All this allows me to produce food for my family from spring to late autumn, and some of this food is used to make supplies for the winter. Tomato soup, peas, beans, garlic&red onion, carrots&parsley, and cucumbers can be stored and last us all winter, and we also have them fresh during the rest of the year.

I don’t know how big my garden is, but it’s not overly large and can produce food for 4-5 people. However, I must emphasize that this is an eco garden where it is much harder to keep plants healthy, which means that I had to learn how to produce eco plant protection products and fertilizer. In the end, I would certainly go cheaper to buy products in the store, but what I produce really has no price since it is 100% natural and healthy.




Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: stompix on May 03, 2022, 03:13:28 PM
Quote
Carbohydrates. You’ll need some starch in your diet. The good news is that you have a lot of options. Beans will pull double duty here, in fact. Potatoes will require about 25 square feet per person, corn will require about 30 square feet per person, squash will need about six square feet, and peas need about eight square feet

Hmm, are you sure about this?

For potatoes, you quote 25 sqft per person, which seems to be 2.32 square meters.
The maximum yield for full industrialized production is 40 000 kilos per ha, 10 000 sqm, 4 kilos per sqm, so you will get 9.2 kilos of potatoes per person a year, or roughly 800 grams a month.
From personal experience, you won't get anywhere above 20 000 kilos for corn without going full hybrids and full treatment, this means even lower than potatoes, something at 500 grams a month.

Of course, I'm not happy with this damn imperial system so I could have done some mistakes but those numbers, at first sight, they are just bogus.

I don’t know how big my garden is, but it’s not overly large and can produce food for 4-5 people. However, I must emphasize that this is an eco garden where it is much harder to keep plants healthy, which means that I had to learn how to produce eco plant protection products and fertilizer. In the end, I would certainly go cheaper to buy products in the store, but what I produce really has no price since it is 100% natural and healthy.

Bro, weed out those strawberries  ;D
As for the I have about 100m2 of raspberry and about the same of strawberries in a 5x40 greenhouse and they are just gone as they are getting ripe, it's been the second year with nothing left for jam.  ;D
200 sqft, that's probably only enough for Barbie's dollhouse.



Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: iv4n on May 03, 2022, 06:50:49 PM
I don’t know how big my garden is, but it’s not overly large and can produce food for 4-5 people. However, I must emphasize that this is an eco garden where it is much harder to keep plants healthy, which means that I had to learn how to produce eco plant protection products and fertilizer. In the end, I would certainly go cheaper to buy products in the store, but what I produce really has no price since it is 100% natural and healthy.
Bro, weed out those strawberries  ;D
As for the I have about 100m2 of raspberry and about the same of strawberries in a 5x40 greenhouse and they are just gone as they are getting ripe, it's been the second year with nothing left for jam.  ;D
200 sqft, that's probably only enough for Barbie's dollhouse.

Haha, he really needs to weed them out! It's too late here ( almost 9 pm and it's dark) I would take a picture of my line of strawberries... I will try to remember and do it tomorrow!

I have a small garden, something from everything, also I have 7 chickens (my daughter convinced me to take them) from a few weeks ago!
Just checked what 200sqft is, and I agree it's too small for anything really! I get what 100m2 is, the same math is here in Serbia, my garden is around 40m2 for now! I have a big yard (614 m2 with a house), but still in the progress to build it how I want! There's a lot of work to be done, I bought some additional yard (130 m2) and I am cleaning it for days (nobody got in there for years)!

Anyway, the point is that with my garden I can't survive for the entire year for sure! It's more to have something healthy at least and not to buy everything while it's a season! For now, I am not buying eggs, I am new in that area, it's a nice period, will see how it will go through the winter...


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: paxmao on May 03, 2022, 09:58:37 PM
I think that the land you would require depends a lot on the region you live in and the resources (water mainly) that you have a your disposal. Costs are also quite a critical consideration. In a wet and relatively cold location, there are not that many crops that do well in winter and the summer may be too short to grow a good quantity.

I personally only grow stuff from April to October, except for a few resistant crops out there. It is just a hobby and a way of getting some organic stuff I can fully trust. I would not consider that is particularly cheap.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Hydrogen on May 04, 2022, 12:12:16 AM
For potatoes, you quote 25 sqft per person, which seems to be 2.32 square meters.
The maximum yield for full industrialized production is 40 000 kilos per ha, 10 000 sqm, 4 kilos per sqm


They could be quoting outlier results, rather than mean averages.

Like these claimed results of 105 kilograms of potatos grown in 6 square meters, which works out to 17.5 kilos of potato produced per square meter.

I grew 235 lbs Of Potatoes in 200 sq ft Without Watering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrytUqXE9Ns

My attempts to grow potatos are an absolute horror show in comparison to his methods.   ;D

My yields are ok though due to climate advantages. (300 inches of rain/year/avg)


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Lucius on May 04, 2022, 09:26:19 AM
Bro, weed out those strawberries  ;D
As for the I have about 100m2 of raspberry and about the same of strawberries in a 5x40 greenhouse and they are just gone as they are getting ripe, it's been the second year with nothing left for jam.  ;D

I honestly don't bother much with strawberries🍓, they grow without too much effort - although I always plan to get as many varieties as possible and pay a little more attention to them. Since I'm allergic to something that producers spray strawberries on (and other fruits and vegetables), this is the only way I can eat them without looking like I've been stung by bees or wasps🐝

200 sqft, that's probably only enough for Barbie's dollhouse.

You’re right there, people can hardly estimate areas without ever really planting anything and doing gardening. Considering the safety nets I use, I estimate that I have about 150 m2 more or less, although the area is a bit bigger, but there is a space where I make compost and plant plants like comfrey that I use as fertilizer.

Of course, part of the area is also a flower garden, because a garden without colorful flowers is not a real garden🌼


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: davis196 on May 04, 2022, 10:59:56 AM
If you want to survive by growing your own food the space inside your garden won't be enough.
You have to plant vegetables on your own(or rented) piece of property,somewhere in the fields.
This raises another question.Who is going to protect your vegetables from stealing? ;D
Having access to water is really important.What if your property is too far away from a river or a lake?
There's not enough agricultural land for all the people in the cities,so I guess that the division of labor will be preserved.The farmers will keep farming and the people in the cities will keep doing their business.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: stompix on May 04, 2022, 03:52:27 PM
For potatoes, you quote 25 sqft per person, which seems to be 2.32 square meters.
The maximum yield for full industrialized production is 40 000 kilos per ha, 10 000 sqm, 4 kilos per sqm
Like these claimed results of 105 kilograms of potatos grown in 6 square meters, which works out to 17.5 kilos of potato produced per square meter.

I grew 235 lbs Of Potatoes in 200 sq ft Without Watering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrytUqXE9Ns

235 lbs is 106 kg
200sqft is 18.5 sqm
It gets you 5.7 kg per sqm, nothing out of the ordinary for somebody who does this in order to get results.

While plants do technically grow out of thin air they still need nutrients to grow that big fruits or tubers or else, your average garden without aid won't be able to produce 20 kgs/sqm unless much of that is water, like cucumbers. And you can't live on cucumbers

I wonder what you tried to do with yours that went wrong, potatoes are quite resilient in growing, it takes art to mess them up . My specialty is growing cabbage with leaves opened up like a sunflower and harder than bamboo!

I honestly don't bother much with strawberries🍓, they grow without too much effort - although I always plan to get as many varieties as possible and pay a little more attention to them. Since I'm allergic to something that producers spray strawberries on (and other fruits and vegetables), this is the only way I can eat them without looking like I've been stung by bees or wasps🐝

I wouldn't use herbicide either on small plants with short flowering fruit cycles but you could help them a lot with a weed barrier. Obviously not that cheap HDPE or PEHD or whatever poly- thing but one sheet made out of wool and wood resin. Not going to last more than 4 years as it does discompose but nothing to worry about them either. The problem with weeds is that once you get some nasty stuff like knotgrass it will be a pain in the ass to get rid of it, you're going to feel the need to buy a flamethrower.

Back to the main topic, did a bit of math on those assumptions.
Quote
This source claims an average of 200 square feet is needed to produce adequate food for 1 person.

7 billion means 1.6 trillion sqft, so if the online convertor is right this is about 57392 square miles so we could feed the entire world if we raze Georgia to the ground and make it all agricultural land.
The metric system is simpler, 18.5 m2 per person,  148 000 km2, so ~ Sweden or Spain, and we have land for beaches and resorts left.
Seriously doubts those claims, it would mean  Lesotho would be needed to feed the whole of Africa.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/06/12/A8YUz.png

If you can't see that tiny green dot there, I don't think you can see any reason to believe the claims either.  ;)







Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: be.open on May 04, 2022, 04:22:04 PM
There are very highly efficient progressive methods such as permaculture (smart forest) or aquaponics (aquaculture and hydroponics closed system cultivation) that allow you to get a lot of food even in a limited space, spending little effort or even fully automated. But I think that the problem of hunger on a planetary scale (and the breath of this horseman of the apocalypse is already close) will not be solved by progressive agricultural methods, but by a breakthrough in the field of pharmacology - a type of universal dry food for people approved by the dietitians association. Long term testing on pets doesn't seem to show any significant side effects from switching to dry food and clean water, I think the next step is to offer it to people. Of course, marketing efforts are needed to make people want to switch from natural food to dry food, but I think that this issue is completely solvable.

I think that natural food will very soon become a luxury that not everyone can afford - people will go to a restaurant on holidays and on special occasions to eat a steak or a lobster. And on weekdays, just eat a handful of these inexpensive tasty granules from the nearest pharmacy with a balanced composition, as well as the necessary set of vitamins and minerals - and do not worry about food anymore. My cat has been doing this for ten years every day and he's fine.

ps Technically, there is no problem making a Soylent-type universal nutrient liquid to solve the problem of food and drinking water in one blow, but without regular chewing, the gums weaken and the teeth begin to fall out, and this is an unpleasant side effect that I would like to avoid.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Hydrogen on May 05, 2022, 02:12:21 AM

235 lbs is 106 kg
200sqft is 18.5 sqm
It gets you 5.7 kg per sqm, nothing out of the ordinary for somebody who does this in order to get results.

While plants do technically grow out of thin air they still need nutrients to grow that big fruits or tubers or else, your average garden without aid won't be able to produce 20 kgs/sqm unless much of that is water, like cucumbers. And you can't live on cucumbers

I wonder what you tried to do with yours that went wrong, potatoes are quite resilient in growing, it takes art to mess them up . My specialty is growing cabbage with leaves opened up like a sunflower and harder than bamboo!


I see where I went wrong. Assumed 1 square foot = 3.3 square meters, when in reality its closer to 1 square foot = 0.1 square meter.

I put common dirt in a big plastic container. With wood chips, chopped tree branches, grass clippings, leaves. Sprayed water on it. Turned it to mix everything up. Its been decomposing for many months now. It looks and smells bad. That's what I'm using for my potatos. They're growing ok, it doesn't look beautiful. It looks like a swamp. Need to find a way to introduce more oxygen. Everything is too clumped together and choked off. Sawdust might work but am trying to see what type of results I can get without using electricity or modern conveniences.


Back to the main topic, did a bit of math on those assumptions.
Quote
This source claims an average of 200 square feet is needed to produce adequate food for 1 person.

7 billion means 1.6 trillion sqft, so if the online convertor is right this is about 57392 square miles so we could feed the entire world if we raze Georgia to the ground and make it all agricultural land.
The metric system is simpler, 18.5 m2 per person,  148 000 km2, so ~ Sweden or Spain, and we have land for beaches and resorts left.
Seriously doubts those claims, it would mean  Lesotho would be needed to feed the whole of Africa.

https://i.imgur.com/fVlcCmL.png

If you can't see that tiny green dot there, I don't think you can see any reason to believe the claims either.  ;)


If 200 sq feet can produce 200 pounds of potatos in a 90 day period. And 200 lbs of potato might be "sufficient" food for 90 days on a rationing system.

I'm not playing devil's advocate. Perhaps we are planning for future potato world.



Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Darker45 on July 23, 2022, 03:54:22 AM
My father lives in a rural town where there's ample of land for gardening or even farming. And he indeed grows his own food. Actually, the entire neighborhood is partially independent when it comes to food. They've got chickens, pigs, cows, goats. They've got all kinds of vegetables and fruits around, both planted and wild.

However, they're still not 100% self-sufficient. For example, there are still spices that they can't grow but they need everyday. They also need condiments that they can't produce. So they still have to go to the market every once in a while. But when worst comes to worst and survival is the only thing that matters, they could probably get by, at least in terms of food.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: oaz7t on July 23, 2022, 04:44:03 AM
There needs one more factor to be added in the above theory and that's seasonal crops. You can not just have fertilised land and grow whatever food we want. We need it harvested according to the seasons. Too much rain and your wheat can't grow but definitely you can have good quality of rice in that season. Even with 2000 sq feet of space one can do miracles using the hydroponics cropping. Mutliple crops can be planted and have the dietary requirements achieved with the same.

Though article is pretty much convincing but it does need proper planning before one can achieve high quality crop cycles. For every crop cycle fertility of soil will reduce significantly and it may need additional steps such as halting crop harvesting in that land for particular period of time.

In that case we may need to grow on another apart of land until the previous one gets breathing.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: justdimin on July 23, 2022, 12:58:38 PM
My father lives in a rural town where there's ample of land for gardening or even farming. And he indeed grows his own food. Actually, the entire neighborhood is partially independent when it comes to food. They've got chickens, pigs, cows, goats. They've got all kinds of vegetables and fruits around, both planted and wild.

However, they're still not 100% self-sufficient. For example, there are still spices that they can't grow but they need everyday. They also need condiments that they can't produce. So they still have to go to the market every once in a while. But when worst comes to worst and survival is the only thing that matters, they could probably get by, at least in terms of food.
Those are few of the reasons on why I like to live in a rural area. I can raise my very own crops there and then grow some animals like pigs because here in urban places the space here is only limited and people will get angry at you if you raise animals like chickens especially pigs because of the strong foul smell. You know, houses here are very close to each other. The soil on rural areas are also soft and healthy, perfect for gardening.

The only downside here is like you said, the market is too far away. Before you go on town, you need to make sure that you list all the things that you will be needing for quite some time so that you won't missed anything.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Lucius on July 23, 2022, 01:08:10 PM
It was nice to remember how everything was beautiful and green in the spring, and now, unfortunately, the heat waves are destroying everything in front of them, regardless of all the effort. Anyone who tries to grow their own food under these conditions really needs to be incredibly persistent or as some would say a little crazy.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: TheNineClub on July 23, 2022, 01:15:57 PM
This source claims an average of 200 square feet needed to produce adequate food for 1 person. Which conflicts with many claiming its impossible to grow sufficient food on 1 acre of land, which is 43,560 square feet.

I think it assumes the usage of chemical fertilizers, which are increasing in price due to them being manufactured from natural gas. While it may be possible to grow food in a reasonably small space, the dollar cost of soil, dirt, containers, compost, seeds, plants, mulch. And the man hours of care necessary could make the bar to entry prohibitive for many.

Money, experience and time appear to be the largest obstacles to solve for the world to fully embrace independent & organic food production.

I mean, how can we objectively calculate this, seeing as we do not all eat the same amount of food. It could theoretically be enough, but it also depends on what foods you are growing and how much you need on a daily basis. There is also an issue of seasonality, you would need to alternate what foods you grow as well as have a bunch that can keep through the winter.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: kryptqnick on July 23, 2022, 01:30:21 PM
I think whether gardening is therapeutic depends on a person. I know people who are really into it, but I personally hate sand and dirt, so doing something that requires a lot of contact with them is annoying to me. Also, while I've noticed that fresh produce is sometimes very expensive in Western countries, it's very cheap in my home country, so unless it's something like growing your own basil, chillies or cherries, it doesn't make any financial sense to put lots of effort and resources into growing your own veggies, for example.
It all really depends on where you live and what you have. If you live in a flat you're renting in a city, it's much harder than if you have your own house and land in a village. But even in a village, people tend to specialize (someone grows potatoes, someone grows corn, others have animals and get tons of milk), and then cooperation with others when you exchange goods works much better.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: NotATether on July 23, 2022, 03:30:32 PM
Anyone who has ever successfully grown a tomato plant in their backyard has wondered if they could go off-grid, grow their own food, and be done with their local supermarket. The answer is yes, but thats the wrong question.

Actually, that is just about the right question. Because half of this population would die from depression if you took their phones away from them, or if they were impaired in some other way e.g. could not access the internet.

Now you take the surviving half, and also take away electricity as well for several hours, in unpredicable times of the week. You'd kill off 90% of THAT out of despiration.

So 95% of the population would wilt if the electricity was cut regularly. Taking away markets and food stores too? That would finish off the rest of the population.

Seriously, it just shows how dependent society is on electricity, and how even more dependent they are on stores - that this entire article is just wishful thinking, far away from reality. I will bet $100 that most of the people who read that article do NOT want to attempt something like that unless they were in extreme desperiation (And I will take your $100, because once you know how basic things are in the 3rd world, you will start to think that most people in developed countries are spoiled).


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: virasisog on July 23, 2022, 04:28:42 PM
It was nice to remember how everything was beautiful and green in the spring, and now, unfortunately, the heat waves are destroying everything in front of them, regardless of all the effort. Anyone who tries to grow their own food under these conditions really needs to be incredibly persistent or as some would say a little crazy.

The environment, as well as the climate, isn't the same as before so growing plants and crops isn't as easy as before. There are also lots of things to consider for us to grow crops and plants. We need a good location, season, and so on so mostly, only professional farmers and agriculturists could grow good plants.
Also, we now have different focuses and priorities. Most of us don't have enough time to do things like planting so we rely on supermarkets when it comes to our necessities. Our generation now is different. We rely on technology and our time each day is limited to doing important stuff for us to survive so planting couldn't be our top priority if there are still other alternatives.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: be.open on July 23, 2022, 05:19:08 PM
It was nice to remember how everything was beautiful and green in the spring, and now, unfortunately, the heat waves are destroying everything in front of them, regardless of all the effort. Anyone who tries to grow their own food under these conditions really needs to be incredibly persistent or as some would say a little crazy.
Evil tongues say that this is the work of Putin's secret climate weapon, but I think this is the consequences of the accident in the Gulf of Mexico in 2021, which almost killed the warm Galstream current, which made the climate milder in Europe, when there is no extreme heat in summer and there is no extreme cold in winter. Although I don't have an extra chromosome like Greta Thunberg to be a big climate change expert.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: DVlog on July 23, 2022, 05:40:49 PM
This source claims an average of 200 square feet needed to produce adequate food for 1 person. Which conflicts with many claiming its impossible to grow sufficient food on 1 acre of land, which is 43,560 square feet.

I think it assumes the usage of chemical fertilizers, which are increasing in price due to them being manufactured from natural gas. While it may be possible to grow food in a reasonably small space, the dollar cost of soil, dirt, containers, compost, seeds, plants, mulch. And the man hours of care necessary could make the bar to entry prohibitive for many.

Money, experience and time appear to be the largest obstacles to solve for the world to fully embrace independent & organic food production.

You can grow more crops in a small place if you have enough knowledge and resource to do that. In many urban places where open space to grow crops is hard to find, people use their rooftops.

People in the modern world like to be involved in service work that doesn't require any physical effort and they intend to buy foods from the market. Very few show interest in growing their own foods by investing some time because they can earn more money within that time if they do other work.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: AmoreJaz on July 23, 2022, 11:14:14 PM
You can grow more crops in a small place if you have enough knowledge and resource to do that. In many urban places where open space to grow crops is hard to find, people use their rooftops.

People in the modern world like to be involved in service work that doesn't require any physical effort and they intend to buy foods from the market. Very few show interest in growing their own foods by investing some time because they can earn more money within that time if they do other work.

i guess, that's one way to look at it. if you have no time or no interest in growing your own food, you can always find another option or job that can give you income to cater your needs. we can't really expect people to tend their own garden if it is not in their vocabulary. but in that case, he should be the one looking for his options how to survive in this crisis.

also, when it comes to having your own garden. you can always make a barter to your neighbors or friends regarding your harvests. so you can you have variations of vegetables.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: carlfebz2 on July 23, 2022, 11:55:14 PM
You can grow more crops in a small place if you have enough knowledge and resource to do that. In many urban places where open space to grow crops is hard to find, people use their rooftops.

People in the modern world like to be involved in service work that doesn't require any physical effort and they intend to buy foods from the market. Very few show interest in growing their own foods by investing some time because they can earn more money within that time if they do other work.

i guess, that's one way to look at it. if you have no time or no interest in growing your own food, you can always find another option or job that can give you income to cater your needs. we can't really expect people to tend their own garden if it is not in their vocabulary. but in that case, he should be the one looking for his options how to survive in this crisis.

also, when it comes to having your own garden. you can always make a barter to your neighbors or friends regarding your harvests. so you can you have variations of vegetables.
People would really be just ending up on getting consideration on having a garden is on the time where there's famine or severe economic crisis and also attached with some total devastation that affects crops
and plantation on where it did really come to a point that there would be scarcity.Yes, it might still be impossible to happen as of this moment but we cant really remove the probability that it might really be a reality in upcoming years to come.

For now we are still fully dependent since there are supply from different aspects which as long you do have the money or funds then you wont really be finding yourself to be in trouble in terms of food
or sustaining or simply surviving yourself. Garden is a good option though but not all would really be having the interest and would just simply stick out into their fiat and bought simply.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: yhiaali3 on July 24, 2022, 01:17:33 AM
One of the things I love the most and I put it as my first goal within the future plans is to own a small garden for farming, unfortunately the city in which I live is difficult to get a garden no matter how small, the houses here are adjacent to each other and there is not enough space to form a small garden, the solution is to go out to the countryside or Resorting instead to surface cultivation, surface cultivation can be a good alternative in such cases, but it requires more experience and skills required.
Individuals like nations need food self-sufficiency, otherwise we will never be free. In addition, wars and famines may occur and we are forced to feed ourselves so it is necessary to acquire farming skills.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: a1 Hashrate LLC2022 on July 24, 2022, 02:39:03 AM
As a suggestion. Storing canned food  is likely a better option.

If the world goes to shit an outdoor garden will attract a lot of people.

Maybe a thread on what foods should be stored.

Canned chickpeas would be one as they take a long time to go bad.
Bottled water no better would be some ceramic filters.
Interesting problem.

What size of food room and how many cans would last 2 years? this could be done.

Also 5 years of stored food is it doable?


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: NotATether on July 24, 2022, 05:48:17 AM
Evil tongues say that this is the work of Putin's secret climate weapon, but I think this is the consequences of the accident in the Gulf of Mexico in 2021, which almost killed the warm Galstream current, which made the climate milder in Europe, when there is no extreme heat in summer and there is no extreme cold in winter. Although I don't have an extra chromosome like Greta Thunberg to be a big climate change expert.

I wouldn't be surprised if Murmansk completely freezes over this coming winter as well /shrug

The whole idea of a "Climate weapon" is quite silly to be honest - I can't imagine Putin being dumb enough to get his only western sea port in the Arctic frozen off as a collateral effect.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: be.open on July 24, 2022, 06:06:48 AM
Evil tongues say that this is the work of Putin's secret climate weapon, but I think this is the consequences of the accident in the Gulf of Mexico in 2021, which almost killed the warm Galstream current, which made the climate milder in Europe, when there is no extreme heat in summer and there is no extreme cold in winter. Although I don't have an extra chromosome like Greta Thunberg to be a big climate change expert.

I wouldn't be surprised if Murmansk completely freezes over this coming winter as well /shrug

The whole idea of a "Climate weapon" is quite silly to be honest - I can't imagine Putin being dumb enough to get his only western sea port in the Arctic frozen off as a collateral effect.

These are not problems, considering how many nuclear-powered icebreakers Russia has. It is also possible to burn gas from the unused Nord Stream 2 and heat water locally in the waters of Murmansk. There is only a fraction of a joke in this joke, and everything else is true.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Cyl0nius on July 24, 2022, 06:34:55 AM
All of this was already thought about in the pre-digital age.
And John Seymour wrote a book about it.

The Self-Sufficient Life and How to Live It - The Complete Back-to-Basics Guide
Das grosse Buch vom Leben auf dem Lande - Ein praktisches Handbuch für Realisten und Träumer

I have read the book long time ago.
It's not in my nature to kill animals and farming is too exhausting for me.

Today i live peacefully in a country with a local crypto-exchange, where electricity is cheap and i can't read/understand the daily newspaper.

Everyone finds their own way  ;)


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: wmaurik on July 24, 2022, 10:13:12 AM
Today i live peacefully in a country with a local crypto-exchange, where electricity is cheap and i can't read/understand the daily newspaper.
You should be more grateful when you are still able to live in peace and hopefully the country you live in can always be peaceful because it is also the initial foundation for citizens to be able to live in peace.

Quote
Everyone finds their own way  ;)
That is true because there are many ways and paths that can be used by everyone in their own lives which in the end are for the purpose of a better life.
May your life continue to be enjoyable after reading the book compiled by John Seymour.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Lucius on July 24, 2022, 10:32:39 AM
Evil tongues say that this is the work of Putin's secret climate weapon, but I think this is the consequences of the accident in the Gulf of Mexico in 2021, which almost killed the warm Galstream current, which made the climate milder in Europe, when there is no extreme heat in summer and there is no extreme cold in winter. Although I don't have an extra chromosome like Greta Thunberg to be a big climate change expert.

No one can blame the current politicians for what has been happening for decades, all the politicians who put development first, regardless of the price that the next generations will pay, are to blame. I just cannot understand all those who claim that climate change is a fabrication and that all that is happening is just a natural development of events.

I read somewhere a very detailed explanation of why the temperatures have risen so drastically in parts of Europe, and the reason is a disturbance in the flow of air that stays too long near Africa and sucks in too much hot air that then comes over Europe. In short, everything has been disrupted and nothing is the same as before, and it doesn't look like anything will get better in the future.



The environment, as well as the climate, isn't the same as before so growing plants and crops isn't as easy as before. There are also lots of things to consider for us to grow crops and plants. We need a good location, season, and so on so mostly, only professional farmers and agriculturists could grow good plants.
Also, we now have different focuses and priorities. Most of us don't have enough time to do things like planting so we rely on supermarkets when it comes to our necessities. Our generation now is different. We rely on technology and our time each day is limited to doing important stuff for us to survive so planting couldn't be our top priority if there are still other alternatives.

Unfortunately, people are increasingly becoming some kind of techno zombies who spend more and more time looking at screens, instead of trying to deal with other things. Large corporations produce food that is unhealthy and poisoned, poorly paid workers put the same food on the shelves, and then people like ants grab that food and deliver it to their homes. It doesn't seem like a promising direction to me, because if for some reason the crops fail or the supply chains are seriously disrupted, I wonder what all those people will do when they realize that the shelves are completely empty?


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: stompix on July 24, 2022, 04:33:45 PM
It was nice to remember how everything was beautiful and green in the spring, and now, unfortunately, the heat waves are destroying everything in front of them, regardless of all the effort. Anyone who tries to grow their own food under these conditions really needs to be incredibly persistent or as some would say a little crazy.

Solariums.

Despite what some believe that they are meant to keep vegetables as exposed to the sun as possible and warmer in spins/autumn they are also pretty good at dealing with every extreme weather also, be it rain, hailstone, and even extreme sun.
If you have a glass solarium and you don't want to spend a fortune on the reinforced glass all you need is some cheap rolls of standard white 0.5 polyethylene that you can simply pull from the rooftop down to the ground. If your solarium is already made out of a bit higher quality LDPE then you're set, all you need for your plants is to avoid direct radiation at peak sun times, otherwise heat alone won't do any harm to them.

And if you think of esthetics, there are a lot of them who ware works of art, looking far better than some houses!

Unfortunately, people are increasingly becoming some kind of techno zombies who spend more and more time looking at screens, instead of trying to deal with other things. Large corporations produce food that is unhealthy and poisoned, poorly paid workers put the same food on the shelves, and then people like ants grab that food and deliver it to their homes.

You're not going to like it, but int he near future even the farmers will be looking at screens, J&D just brought their autonomous tractors CES, our company has in plans to test by 2025 the first full autonomous loader /unloader in one of our logistics centers, and delivery will probably start being dominated by pi-cup delivery locations like those safe boxes that have been popping up like mushrooms from Denmark to Bulgaria.

Evil tongues say that this is the work of Putin's secret climate weapon, but I think this is the consequences of the accident in the Gulf of Mexico in 2021, which almost killed the warm Galstream current,

Some angelic tongues say it's because of what's been happening for decades at Karachay, quite coincidentally is in your region so that might explain a lot of things


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Lucius on July 25, 2022, 10:09:30 AM
Solariums.

Look what hail did a few months ago in my country, and even greenhouses with glass that was supposed to be resistant to hail impacts were destroyed. Conditions have become extreme in every way, be it hail or temperatures going over 40 degrees Celsius in the shade. You must be aware that some plants cannot bloom and form fruits if the temperature does not suit them, so for example, we do not plant green beans in spring at all, but in late summer, which is more suitable for them and they produce good fruits in autumn.

https://www.zagorje-international.hr/2022/05/25/tuca-kakva-se-ne-pamti-nema-kuce-i-staklenika-koji-nisu-osteceni-usjeva-koji-nije-unisten/

You're not going to like it, but int he near future even the farmers will be looking at screens, J&D just brought their autonomous tractors CES, our company has in plans to test by 2025 the first full autonomous loader /unloader in one of our logistics centers, and delivery will probably start being dominated by pi-cup delivery locations like those safe boxes that have been popping up like mushrooms from Denmark to Bulgaria.

It is logical that technology enters every pore of society, and agriculture is no exception. I have no doubt that in the future everything will be automated to the extent that the entire farm will be managed from one center, provided that it will be possible to produce food at all, given that some areas will look more like deserts than arable land.

https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/stretching-sands-desertification-spreads-europe


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: stompix on July 25, 2022, 07:43:47 PM
Solariums.

Look what hail did a few months ago in my country, and even greenhouses with glass that was supposed to be resistant to hail impacts were destroyed.
https://www.zagorje-international.hr/2022/05/25/tuca-kakva-se-ne-pamti-nema-kuce-i-staklenika-koji-nisu-osteceni-usjeva-koji-nije-unisten/

The glass alone can't resist the impact of ice the size of baseball balls, you need sandwiched reinforced one, and clearly, from the pictures that ain't one, it's not even tempered glass. That's why I recommend PE solution on top of that, it will take the initial blow and it will prevent much of the impact, if you're living in a dangerous zone you can renounce glass at all and go for double-layered LDPE, extra 20cents more on sqm and you get the UV resistant one which will not degrade even in 5 years of exposed sun, we have that on top of our normal PE sheets and it has withstanded everything to date, from rain to hailstorm to crows.

You must be aware that some plants cannot bloom and form fruits if the temperature does not suit them, so for example, we do not plant green beans in spring at all, but in late summer, which is more suitable for them and they produce good fruits in autumn.

Well, green beans will be more prolific now with this warm weather, you could theoretically plant them in March since I doubt the soil below 30cm in southernn Europe is still frozen by that time, probably in excellent conditions you might be able to harvest it even before the first summer heatwave in July.

For others, yeah, it's going to be the end of home farming, I doubt anyone would be able to grow watermelons, cabbage, cucumbers or any other fruit or vegetables that have a late harvest schedule and requires tons of water, we've stopped growing the normal tomatoes and gone for the roma of plum type, rather change a bit the taste than have nothing at all.

Looking back at this topic, probably best to read it in spring or late autumn when the weather is nice, everything is fine, and everyone thinks that farming is fun, if you read it after getting back home from 40C outside all tried and sweaty from just walking reality kicks in, farming is a pain in the ass, it will always be and home farming is fun just for a few days while you know that if it goes wrong you can still pull the phone from your pocket and order a pizza in 15 minutes.




Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: wmaurik on September 12, 2022, 10:26:45 AM
If I could, I would start growing my food. I wish I had the knowledge and expertise to do so, but the other major issue is the land.
If you don't have your own land to grow herbs or fruit that you can eat, then try to rent it to someone else if the rent is not that expensive and you feel it is very suitable to do the job. Because if you are a reliable farmer who has a lot of knowledge about agriculture and is able to manage every crop, then that is an advantage for you in terms of farming.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Oceat on September 12, 2022, 11:58:33 PM
If I could, I would start growing my food. I wish I had the knowledge and expertise to do so, but the other major issue is the land.
If you don't have your own land to grow herbs or fruit that you can eat, then try to rent it to someone else if the rent is not that expensive and you feel it is very suitable to do the job. Because if you are a reliable farmer who has a lot of knowledge about agriculture and is able to manage every crop, then that is an advantage for you in terms of farming.
There are lots of way to make a garden though even if you have if you have small space left. Some farmers/gardeners hang it in the wall with a pot but it limits of what you must plant and herbs are the best choice for a pot but for the crops you really need some space to grow them. And if someone was living in an apartment it's not gonna work but if it's your own land you can do whatever you want since no one would hinder what you've been doing since planting really need a lot of time and care to grow.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: BRINIRHA on September 13, 2022, 07:42:29 AM
Growing crops for yourself and your family will actually be quite easy. because it certainly does not require a large area of ​​land. This is different from farming where the produce is for sale. Of course it requires a large area of ​​land as well as extra energy and high capital.

if you grow crops for yourself and your family, using chemical fertilizers will still be affordable. because buying vegetables and grains from the market will still be more expensive than growing yourself. but if we can grow plants with our own processed compost, it will be much more efficient.

but for large-scale farming it will require large amounts of fertilizer. so of course it will be difficult to make organic fertilizer on a large scale.

unless there is an agricultural group that cooperates in making it.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: noorman0 on September 13, 2022, 08:52:01 AM
My country belongs to the category of half developing countries where many residents of the 70s generation in remote areas still make full use of the vacant land around them for daily food needs without relying on traditional markets at all. Even though it is only a small plot of land (not even 0.1 sq. acre), with the support of 2 tropical seasons,  it can produce food for 4-5 family members with almost complete nutrition all year round from farming and partly for raising livestock.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: wmaurik on September 21, 2022, 01:58:18 AM
a small well maintained garden will be enough - it gives peace of mind, and it is a very healthy activity too.
Even if you don't have space there is a lot of trend of having a rooftop garden and balcony garden and people are growing there vegetable and fruits there.
For people who have land in front of their own house, it is very nice, because they can immediately turn their home page into a small garden to grow plants and fruits that can be consumed. But this will not be able to be run by those who only have a house without having a qualified front yard. So I think the advice you give is very limited because it is only for certain people.

There are lots of way to make a garden though even if you have if you have small space left. Some farmers/gardeners hang it in the wall with a pot but it limits of what you must plant and herbs are the best choice for a pot but for the crops you really need some space to grow them. And if someone was living in an apartment it's not gonna work but if it's your own land you can do whatever you want since no one would hinder what you've been doing since planting really need a lot of time and care to grow.
I agree to this because the suggestions you are making are factual and very logical with so many examples that have been seen at this point. I have also seen some people who plant herbs on the walls of their homes, but it will not be enough for him even though it is very healthy, because everyone also needs fruits to eat besides they need vegetables to eat every day.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: stompix on September 21, 2022, 03:12:26 AM
My country belongs to the category of half developing countries where many residents of the 70s generation in remote areas still make full use of the vacant land around them for daily food needs without relying on traditional markets at all. Even though it is only a small plot of land (not even 0.1 sq. acre), with the support of 2 tropical seasons,  it can produce food for 4-5 family members with almost complete nutrition all year round from farming and partly for raising livestock.

0.1 acres is 0.04 ha, best two-season production is around 7 tons of rice per ha, with 0.1 acres you will get 280 kilos of rice a year, or 56 kilos of rice per family member, so even all of it used won't satisfy your needs, livestock has no way to compete on used land with rice or other grains so it would be been less possible to live on it.
Redo the numbers!

It is a very informative post. Infact time is very high that we need to start becoming self reliant for our food production. I think aquaponics can also play very good role for growing food in our apartments.

You forgot the part where the math is completely wrong!
Self-reliance is just a dream, impossible to realize in today's world.
Even with the completely bogus numbers or 1000 sqm being enough you would still need cities like for example Tokyo to grow 10 times in size just so that everyone could have its small garden, how do you think it will look like, not even mentioning that those gardens will displace some other millions who will also need a new home and a  new garden? In countries like Belgium, Japan, or Vietnam you would cover 1/3 of the whole country with small farms, do you think it's still such a great idea?


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Lucius on September 21, 2022, 01:40:43 PM
Self-reliance is just a dream, impossible to realize in today's world.

Although I agree with that in principle, when you already mentioned Japan, I remembered an example of an office building that contains 43 000 square feet of area for growing about 200 different types of fruits and vegetables. I was really fascinated by such an approach, which not only produces food for the employees, but also creates a very pleasant working environment - except for those who don't really like to be in the natural environment.

https://archello.com/project/pasona-hq


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: stompix on September 21, 2022, 07:52:08 PM
Self-reliance is just a dream, impossible to realize in today's world.

Although I agree with that in principle, when you already mentioned Japan, I remembered an example of an office building that contains 43 000 square feet of area for growing about 200 different types of fruits and vegetables. I was really fascinated by such an approach, which not only produces food for the employees, but also creates a very pleasant working environment - except for those who don't really like to be in the natural environment.

https://archello.com/project/pasona-hq

Hihi, this is one of those 1 in a trillion situations when the close to impossible happens, and, yes it did!
I was curious about how the building looks from the street view and guess how google maps greeted me:

Pasona Tokyo Headquarters
Permanently closed (https://www.pasona.co.jp/area/ootemachi.html)

Quote
※Urban Farm’s original address, Gofukubashi Building, was closed in June 2017 and subsequently demolished. Pasona Group Inc. has moved to the new location.

Well, they tried, god knows how much money they've spent on it cause they didn't replicate that stunt anywhere else.
So I guees this counts as a shattered demolished dream.  :)




Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Zlantann on May 03, 2023, 03:50:39 PM
If you want to survive by growing your own food the space inside your garden won't be enough.
You have to plant vegetables on your own(or rented) piece of property,somewhere in the fields.
This raises another question.Who is going to protect your vegetables from stealing? ;D
Having access to water is really important.What if your property is too far away from a river or a lake?
There's not enough agricultural land for all the people in the cities,so I guess that the division of labor will be preserved.The farmers will keep farming and the people in the cities will keep doing their business.
My country has vast agricultural lands wasted due to rural-urban drift. Before now we lived in agrarian agricultural communities that were self-sufficient. There were no thieves because of our religious beliefs and we have sufficient rainfall. Now the rural areas lack basic amenities and employment opportunities which has made many people flee to the urban areas. But the environment in these cities is polluted and the food is highly inorganic. Sometimes we think we earning a better income in the city unknowingly that when we grow our food and live in a healthier environment we will spend less on food and healthcare. I always feel like going back to the rural area but my greatest challenge is the infrastructural deficit.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: Silberman on May 03, 2023, 08:08:35 PM
I think that such things should be done by specialists. What can you grow? What food? To grow something you need to work in the garden all day. Maybe bad weather and then the crop will not grow. It could be a hurricane, a tornado, a drought, anything, in some countries it may be sudden frost. I stand for the fact that every case should be done by a professional. And what seems simple is not always the case.
Most likely many people are thinking about growing their own food not because they want to but because they believe that in the future they may have to do it, as we know the economy is not doing well and if there is one thing that you cannot live without is food, and when the country in which you are living or even the whole world is suffering due to an economic crisis, the very first thing that goes up in value is food because everyone needs it, and if you can cut your food expenses that will help you greatly under those circumstances.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: libert19 on May 04, 2023, 05:25:01 AM
I think trees are overlooked. Here where I live, they grow on their own and whenever they yield their seasonal fruits we just eat them, without any maintenance whatsoever. 1 acre land is plenty, surround it with edible trees and in-middle plant vegetables, bit far from tree themselves as in shade they won't grow as proper.


Title: Re: How Much Garden You Would Need to 100% Survive On
Post by: goldkingcoiner on May 04, 2023, 02:03:06 PM

For people who have land in front of their own house, it is very nice, because they can immediately turn their home page into a small garden to grow plants and fruits that can be consumed. But this will not be able to be run by those who only have a house without having a qualified front yard. So I think the advice you give is very limited because it is only for certain people.


I think if we consider some time and space saving options, you would need only a minimal amount of garden to survive on.

Something has lately sparked my interest. Namely indoor gardens aka greenhouses and potato growing bags. The growing bags are interesting because you would not have to actually uproot and harm/destroy the potato plants, rather you open a section of the bag and take out the grown potatoes. The plant itself stays unharmed and continues growing even more potatoes for the maximum yield, until exhaustion. Unlike if grown in a field, its more efficient, I would think.

It takes 3-4 months for the plant to grow to the point of harvest and with a potato bag, even though the next harvest will not be as plentiful, it should only take 10 weeks for new potatoes to fully grow.

Whether or not thats more efficient than replanting and waiting 3-4 months for a full harvest can be a point of argument...

You could grow in a greenhouse, or even in a room with sufficient sunlight. Even in winter, so the question is, seeing as you do not need to replant every time, how many perpetually growing potato plants do you need to harvest a steady amount of potatoes and survive?


edit: I am not plant expert, so I might be completely off on how many times you can harvest from a single potato plant. A strategically timed replanting could achieve the same result.