Bitcoin Forum

Justify yourselves. I'm tired of hearing this. What makes you keep saying that the China situation is FUD?

As far as I'm aware, it is a FACT that the PBOC issued statements in DECEMBER that third party payment processors and banks should not transact with bitcoin exchanges or in bitcoin. Since then, Chinese exchanges have ignored the guidance and continued to use bank accounts, and attempted other manipulations and tricks in defiance of their government. Bulls have been attempting to use sheer hope and willpower to turn this temporary situation into a permanent one and pretend that nothing ever happened in China and that everything is ok. They are deluded! To think that the Chinese government was not going to enforce PBOC rulings or for the bulls to think that they could go in and change the fabric of the universe to reverse things with their sheer bullishness, enthusiasm, and willpower. Moooooo! No! It was bound to fail eventually. Now the inevitable enforcement action rolls around. Even if the current news is fake (which I'm hearing it probably isn't), enforcement action could STILL be right around the corner, and I've been warning about this months, and how I never really liked this 'recovery' because it was always led by or supported by China which was doomed to fail eventually.

One more thing: Someone argued with me that cash vouchers were the reason everything was ok. You know well as I that it is not cash vouchers but bank transfers that have been moving the real money, cash vouchers are just another trick to defy the government which will probably also be banned, and that cash vouchers are not even on Huobi - the highest volume exchange, so they are practically irrelevant.

So anyway, anyone who still subscribes to the "China FUD" theory, explain yourselves?
1) Why do you think the rulings in December were fake, or did not really imply that bank accounts should not transact with Bitcoin exchanges? Provide proof. If there is a mistranslation, please provide the appropriate translation, and proof of how it is a valid translation.
2) Why do you think the current news is fake? Again, provide proof.

So you sold your coins? :D

Stop spreading FUD! ohh.. sorry autopilot was on. Carry on.

To all of those that don't care about China - You're right comrades.

Well TERA, I think you wanted some decent discourse on this so I'll oblige.

I think when people scream FUD, it just means that they feel the Chinese government is cowardly for it's behavior in not providing clarity on their stance of bitcoin.  Right now if the Chinese government and PBOC wanted to clarify their stance, they could easily do that couldn't they?  But ambiguity is a form of oppression, of mind control, a way of inspiring panic and fear in their people.  And they seem to do that very well, in fact revel in it.

The news could very well be true, and most likely is at this point.  Whether it is or it isn't, the Chinese panic sellers believe that it is and that's all that matters to them.  Their actions today speak for themselves.  If they want to be sheep and sell everything, then so be it.

Personally I hope that the PBOC weighs in on this definitively in the next few days and I hope the news is true.  I hope that China dumps for good and goes away from bitcoin forever.  Right now they are a liability in all of this.  I think that's what the rest of the world is thinking as well.

When people scream FUD, it generally means that they are hearing things that they don't want to be true. Especially on this forum and especially you.

I personally think bitcoin value is going down the shitter and people are way to optimistic.
That being said, look at how many crashes china has caused over rumors of the same shit said differently.
So, for me China news is about as credible as hicks talking about getting sodomized by aliens. 

Sorry to hear you sold your coins in the 1-2 figure range and/or lost your coins.

TERA has made a shit ton trading and is a bitcoin advocate, so get off his ass. When you lump people into a category just because you do not like what they say, that reflects on you. TERA is not a troll, making shit up to try to affect a price.

Now to your points, TERA. I agree, whether this current announce is true or not, I expect it to become harder and harder to trade in China in the near to intermediate term future. If and when Bitcoin becomes a more global system of payment, China will probably reconsider, but for now its an annoying blip on their radar. I think that is another reason they are ambigious about it. They really don't care as much as people think they do. Nor do they feel threatened in any way. I just don't think they see any benefit, which isn't surprising because China is not innovative by nature. They are copiers by nature. This is also why, despite so many bitcoin advocates complaints and gripes, the US is actually the most friendly bitcoin country to date and the biggest beacon to its potential global adoption. China can come later. The US is much much more important short term.

But because China did not "follow" through on their announcement months ago, that negativity did not have a chance to be fully rung out of this market.

The final Chinese "cleanse" has begun. And its probably going to be about as ugly as the Gox cleanse.

I think this will lead us to our final bottom. But its probably going to be another bearish ugly 3-4 weeks. And if $380-$400 holds a third time, it will be a testiment to a market with potential to move back up.  

Should be some volatility and lead to some good trading opps.

Why does every subject I talk about here end up with an irrelevant discussion about my own trading?

Regarding your second point (actually both to be honest), the onus is on the news provider to substantiate firm confirmation of the action. I've seen the statement regarding closing down the accounts of Chinese Bitcoin Exchanges, but when the PBOC goes onto weibo and says:
and another party says that the statement has "authenticity," one is clearly firmer than the other.

As we have seen before, it isn't uncommon for there to be a lot of misdirection and obfuscation regarding media, reports, and statements from China. That's why I stand firm with my statement saying that the onus is on the provider to fully substantiate such a claim.

However, maybe misdirection is part of the game plan in general? After all from a political perspective, if the U.S. is willing to accept bitcoin to a certain extent, China could easily slant in the other direction.

Cos if u say anything negative about future Bitcoin price action it obviously means you are jealous and hate Bitcoin cos u sold at $100 or something.

PBOC is the government? They have the backing of guns?

What does PBOC mean? Which division of the Chinese government does it stand for?

You mean like "Bitcoin is used to purchase illegal drugs that make people act like buttholes?"

Do you have "proof" from the PBOC that the current news is real? Or do you just have 3rd party online news sources saying that it is real?

I don't really care either way, but if you're so adamant that it is real, can you live up to your own standards and provide proof yourself?

Yawn....so China bans Bitcoin (again). Price dips, people move on, price goes back up. Big whoop.

The Chinese government is hardly going to give a shit about informing exchanges. They're just a bunch of irritating nobodies in their eyes, if they're aware of who they are at all. If there's a decision it'll go straight to the banks and the exchanges will find out eventually from them.

As far as I can tell, it's still unclear on what position the PBOC is taking. I'm going to play it cautious in case a worst-case scenario unfolds. Don't listen to the people who bought at $1000, they'll say anything to try and get people to buy.

Yeah, never really thought I'd join that illustrious "perma bear" crowd, you know the one I mean, Blitz, ElectricMucus etc. But the reactions of the Bitcoin cultists are just too frustrating to stomach sometimes: on the faintest sign of good news anyone who cautiously asks for a source or verification is shouted down, while on the emergence of rather well-established bad news (like China right now), a majority is calling it FUD and feels bears are only trying to piss into their cryptocheerios. I remain as optimistic about the long term prospects of Bitcoin (or at least: of cryptocurrency as a whole) as I was, but that delusional subset of the investor crowd in here is getting on my nerves. Majorly.

Agreed. It is one thing to be bullish about a very bright future for bitcoin as world currency, and I don't have a problem with that. However, it is another thing to try to deny blatant facts and twist events around to manipulate so that so that everything is always perfect right now and support your desire for bitcoin prices to go straight to the moon right now and for everyone to follow along and buy. If you are really bullish about the future and the resiliency of bitcoin, then you shouldn't need to do that. That is just being delusional and manipulative.

I have felt the same feeling for several months already :/ Starting with "It doesn't mean anything that pboc stated how they don't want to see any business activity with bitcoin in China". Or "It will certainly be OK because Bobby Lee has a strong feeling that it will be OK".
Usually, I consider myself as a friend to bitcoin. With mostly defending bitcoin from mindless fear and hate. But in the context of this forum, I'm considered to be "the enemy of bitcoin" just because I think that it's not right to worship bitcoin and to try to make it seem like something that it clearly isn't.

In my idea, the cultists are the reason on why there is this ugly slow downwards market. Without the cultists, we could of went down quickly, experienced some stability at the bottom for some time and then started to go up again. That would have been an healthy environment where one would feel comfortable investing.

posted just now more or less

seems it is NOT FUD

this is not good

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/28/bitcoin_china_pboc_ban/

Cultists are part of the healthy environment in all investments.

When that part gets too big, then the environment won't be healthy anymore.

Huobi still has 5x more volume than Bitstamp.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-27/pboc-orders-banks-to-shut-bitcoin-exchange-accounts-caixin-says.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-27/pboc-orders-banks-to-shut-bitcoin-exchange-accounts-caixin-says.html)

As usual - Rumour spread by 'Interested' parties who want your Btc for nothing !

FUD def: Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. that's exactly what's coming out of China. I don't have to justify that. The burden of proof is on those reporting this ban, because there has been no confirmation from the PBOC. Until there's PBOC confirmation or denial, it is by definition FUD.

Hey Billy.

On the plus side, we have those sub $550 coins that you reckoned you would give your two front teeth to get at again. You know, those sub $550 coins that we were never going to see, because of what all the whales would do as soon at Bitcoin hit this price point. Are you buying as much as you can right now with all your worthless fiat and maxed out credit cards?

What about the forum member who you 'dared' to sell at $580? Do you still 'dare' him to sell at $511 and risk missing out on the ride 2 da moon?

Tell us oh sage one, how should we align our Bitcoin investments from here?

P.S. Is it not the case that you are only 'successful' because you got in nice and early, but had you been trading since Dec 2013, that you would be 90% down on your capital, which of course means that actually, you really don't have a fkn clue?

P.P.S. What if the PBOC don't blatantly advertise when they directly prohibit certain financial activities? What if it is more a Chinese way of doing things that the authorities simply pronounce their 'dim view' on Bitcoin and expect their citizens to fall into line out of sheer willingness to comply with the wishes of the state. What if they deal with the remaining non-compliants by simply shutting them out the system, yet acting as though nothing is wrong and nothing is banned? If that were the case, would it then be reasonable to assume that the exchanges may have their bank accounts frozen/terminated without so much as a single round of fanfare?

Every time I see FUD, the very first question that came to my mind is:

How much that bear bought it ?  
How much that bear expect to profit until buy again ?



"every bear is bull embryo mutation"

I first came running to Bitcoin as a speculator in Nov 2013, bullish as hell. I was bullish on Bitcoin when I first went to open my Bitstamp account in Nov 2013 with Bitcoin already at a whopping $300. I was still waiting on Bitstamp to verify my account when Bitcoin crashed from $760 to $380 and turned bearish right on the eve of the crash (check my post history), but when Bitcoin recovered almost 100% within a few days, I turned bull again, as my Bitstamp account finally got set up and I bought my first speculative Bitcoins at low $700 range. I remained bullish until after the $1160 double top, at which point I turned bearish. Since then, I have been mostly bearish with the odd bit of flip flopping onto the bull's wagon.

Do you see a pattern emerging here that has absolutely nothing to do with a bear simply being a 'repressed closet bull' and everything to do with the bear simply wanting to avoid getting burned by sitting on the wrong side of the trade?

Thanks for share your history, I always apreciate yours post.. You right, you should follow the trend, the wisdom of the crowd, etc.. for me its' all about timeframe, since I got into cryptoeconomy as a miner I see things in long terms, and it's also a bit like my own personality ..I have a tendency to think about 5-10 years ahead ... I more inclined to be hedge fund manager than day trader ... unfurtunaly I not that stake high, but yes I preffer check stuff like 4 times a year, than check every single day the charts ... Well, as a miner my hardware is paid itself alread, already makes profit to me .. now I just checking the eletricity ... so pretty much... all that swing does not afect me anymore..

This year things seens to be more controleded by exchanges ...while in 2013 was by hardware mining industry ... I think next year will be more software people developing new products based in bitcoin technology ... I will keep my eyes on ... social media (doge) anonymity (anon/zero) frameworks ( ethereum ) etc ...

A lot of good points are being made here.  But there are some of you that fail to recognize the "China" economic policies that are currently in place.

A good amount of you seem to forget that China is still a communist country.  Why we have open trade with them and not other communist countries is still a mystery to me but that's besides the point.

Let's step back from the screens for a moment and look at the overall picture of China's economics.

1) Only allow export of manufactured goods.

2) Hoarde world's raw materials including precious metals.

3) Sell back low quality good to people with lots of fiat.

4) Do not permit citizens to move country's currency into other forms to avoid dilution of the state.

5) Prohibit transactions which devalue the currency of the state.

You can call it FUD or whatever you want.  The truth is, China has a history of not wanting to let their money leave their country and will go to great measures to protect the state even if it means banning something without any further explanation.

Just google China ghost towns to see what the Chinese have been doing with the funds that are not allowed to leave the country.

China is roughly 60% of the bitcoin market.  If that goes away expect the price to fall dramatically to correct levels out of bubble territory. 

Trade accordingly and quit crying because you missed the triple tops.

All this is true except for the 60% part. That is not even close to correct. I contend that Chinese is probably 10-15% of the market, that their no trade fees lead to ridiculous high coin circulation AND that most of the traders on China exchanges are not Chinese.

by China you mean, the government-parasite-bureaucrats ...

But don't make the same mistake that I have made in the past in turning 'anti-Bitcoin' due to associating it with the fkn numbskull spastics on this forum that fill the pages up with endless reams of brain dead tunnel visioned delusional shit.

I noticed you get in an argument with billyjoeallen, who I count amongst the very worst of Bitcoin Nutters around. He is dangerous because unlike say JimboTornonto, pbody or any of the other truly idiotic and totally mindless Bitcoin Nutters, he does put forward rational arguments, he likes to remind everyone of the great wealth that investing in Bitcoin has brought him, yet practically everytime Bitcoin does anything except go up, his market acumen has been proven to be horrendous and I am in no doubt that he has influenced dozens of noobs into jumping into Bitcoin at the worst of times and ending up seriously underwater. Of course, in his own words, there is more to investing in Bitcoin than chasing mere profit. There are higher values and goals at play here, right? He extols the virtues of being a 'Bitcoin cultist' ensuring that it has inherent value no matter what happens. But then I am sure most of us wouldn't mind holding the odd few hundred Bitcoin simply to 'support the cause', especially if we only paid single digits for them in the first place and have cashed out a small fortune on top of those, but as far as late investors are concerned, who really fancies emptying lots of their savings into some shark market players pockets purely to 'support the cause'? Especially so now that the true nature of Bitcoin is increasingly being spelled out to those of us with an ability to read between the lines as something considerably more nefarious and indeed sinister than the 'libertarian magic internet money of freedom' which Bitcoin was embraced as back in 2011/2012.

Talking about the China situation is FUD (no matter what actually happens in China), since the market has already reacted it is time to move on. :D

Seriously, the current source is shady/weak, but the story is getting old (like Gox is old news but not fully resolved)
Bitcoin is getting big enough to move beyond this "crap", so even this current effort is a form of "just more FUD", (even though you probably didn't have that intention)


Q) What if the Chinese dump huge amounts?
A) People in Denmark can buy and legally pay no taxes on the profits.

Bottom line:
There is way too much good news to be focused on bad.
If you are repeatedly focusing on the same bad news, it is FUD by definition.

Brilliant post. I posted something similar in Altcoin section https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=546338.msg5961660#msg5961660

Bitcoin is getting ridiculous. The mining companies will manipulate a bit more in the coming days though and offer the artificial support, but this scheme is getting exposed more and more by the day. The Chinese news is just a catalyst.

BTC China says today that Mainland Chinese CAN Fund AND Withdraw via banks... (News as of March 28,2014)
https://vip.btcchina.com/page/notice20140328

What do you make of that? Its the latest information to come out of china.

So I'm the worst because I put forth rational arguments? That makes sense.

People like Matthecat don't understand that the majority of silent holders of bitcoin are speculating on future price rises over a period of years and not days. Trading is different from speculation. I don't have to trade bitcoin because for me it is a long term punt in a much larger portfolio. And I will continue to add to it at these prices until I am comfortable with my allocation.

The sky is falling and bears are screaming sell (and they are so emotive). But despite your 'crypto currency fatigue' Mat, the underlying idea of what bitcoin represents as a technology remains sound. Adoption is widening, transactions are rising. We can tell it is slowly entering the public imagination because the central banks around the world are beginning to murmur and resist.

When the market turns every bear on this forum will belatedly help to propel the price to new highs. If you didn't believe in the idea then one has to ask why you continue to post here.

21st march.. btcCHINA ceo said that china did not really ban bitcoin..

dude use your brains... u think huobi ceo + litecoin CEO + btcchina CEO do not have friends from the goverment?

of course they do.. so do u think they will have the news first or the corrupted reporters that will report for $ that tells the truth??


its like if your the MANAGER if there is any news.. do u think the director of your department will tell the manager first or your staff or your cleaner?

of course your manager will know first, not your mum or dad !!

wake up.. use some IQ please.. of course the damn bloody news is fake...ITS A FUD.. so dont get FK up by a FUD...

I should have said 'pseudo rational' which is indeed more dangerous to a n00b than JimboToronto constantly posting 'Bear'*derp* memes and the like.

of course BTCCHINA said so, why he would tell that his market is ruined?
Facts are : price is falling since the first ban of december, AND it will drop til a good news come, obviously it's FUD because China wants cheap coins (maybe because of manipulating the market) and because most of volume is China AND because of the bubble type of price, need to find bottom and then rally again like it did in November....

SO no news = bad news = DROP
remember last year, price was about 100$ and still x5 more....

Hopefully the good news will continue.

I don't need to say anything.  Bitcoinwisdom will show you all you need to know about this "FUD".

Hope you all got out in time.

Advice from someone with 4 months of experience. lol

You're sooo smart.

OK, so maybe you are an alt. That's no excuse for playing Captain Hindsight.

Too all those spreading "China FUD":
BTC is recently going up every day.  :)

I bought back in full BTC between 402-409.

Money where our talk is then?

I am a longterm bull, have been a medium term bear, and am now a short term bull with hopes to put the medium term bear to sleep for a while