Title: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 19, 2022, 12:22:52 AM Apollo BTC (full package) review
What is it? (TL;DR)
Hardware:
Backstory and price: I preordered this Apollo BTC (batch 3) 'full unit' late summer 2021, paid it in full and received it pretty exactly 6 months later. I got the 'full unit' that includes the Orange Pi 4, compared to the 'only hashboard' option that looks the same, but has void in that spot. The price difference (right now) is $300 and for that you get the Orange Pi 4 and the 1TB SSD. I'll purposefully repeat the SBC's model name often here since until I got it I wasn't sure what it was. Their webpage always just speaks of 'our controller' and that it's faster than a Raspberry Pi 4, but never mentions that it's not 'theirs', but rather an off-the-shelf Pi 4 alternative. Quote from: https://www.futurebit.io/ At the core of our revamped Apollo Platform is a supercharged Single Board Computer (SBC). This is not your typical Raspberry Pi. Our board features [...] [emphasis mine] Quote from: https://www.futurebit.io/ This is nearly 10x faster than our closest SBC Full Node competitor, and is nearly as fast as a dedicated desktop computer. At the heart of the new Apollo BTC product is a revamped SBC (Single Board Computer), that is as powerful as any consumer grade desktop system and can run almost any Bitcoin Application natively on the device 24/7. [emphasis mine] The Apollo BTC Miner Unit with our latest controller built in [emphasis mine] Make your own judgement (maybe let me know what you think about this), but to me it appeared it's something custom, maybe even tailor-made for this application. Instead, it's the Orange Pi 4, which has less software and community support than a Raspberry Pi, and has unnecessary hardware like a GPU (https://orangepi.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=237&product_id=895). I must say that $300 for adding this SBC and SSD is steep. The 'hashboard only' option can be acquired for $524.99 right now, whereas the 'full unit' runs you $824.99. Buying an Orange Pi 4 and the exact same SSD right now, runs you pretty exactly $200, so it's a 50% premium. I'm not sure if you can just buy those yourself and mount them into a 'hashboard only' unit, or if there are missing mounting spots or holes on those. But from pictures, they look exactly the same. Just throwing an idea out there. Setup and first impressions
Long-term usage
All in all, it's a pleasant companion; it doesn't take up a lot of space, doesn't make too much noise (*more later) or draw too much power. However: it's pretty useless if you use it the way it ships. It has no real daily utility. All the applications they claim you could or can run on the Apollo, do run, but you have to do it yourself and there are no instructions. Out of the box, it has no local block explorer (not even that useful for me), no Electrum and no Lightning on it. Add the fact that it's recommended against updating (or installing) anything, because it may break stuff (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.0); it's kind of a paperweight (if you use it as it comes out-of-the-box). More on the software below. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 19, 2022, 12:23:07 AM More technical and in-depth information:
Controller As I found out when making my [Custom Linux install guide for the Futurebit Apollo] (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401729), it was hard to find OS binaries for this SBC. It comes with I do have to say I find it a bit dishonest (as I alluded to earlier) how Futurebit claim it's their controller, purposefully cease to mention the SBC used and even claim it's as fast as any(!!!) desktop computer. Such a claim can be refuted by pointing out a single desktop computer that is faster, so I'd be very careful with absolute claims. Even if they claimed it was as fast as a desktop computer, it would be wrong. They probably refer to the chip having 6 cores, which is not too shabby by today's home computing standards, but core count alone doesn't paint the whole picture. In my experience, it feels around as fast as a Raspberry Pi 4, and definitely much slower than any of my nodes, even easily beat by an upgraded laptop node (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5364742). I think I paid around $150 for that whole node since I upgraded to a 1TB SATA (NVMe has no real-world performance benefit for a node) SSD and 8GB of RAM. But the processor is a super old Celeron dual-core. Compile times on the Orange Pi are so long that I resorted to pulling a compiled binary for Bitcoin Core (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401747.msg60311571#msg60311571). The CPU even overheated after a while and I had to reboot and retry. After two attempts, I just got the binary release. It's important to point out (as seen in the pictures), that the fan cooling the SBC is pulling in air from below the hashboard. It works fine in normal operation, but I would personally have turned it upside down so it can get fresh air instead. The fan is also not silent - it's a 40mm, pretty cheap looking fan and for silence I'd replace it. Especially when it's not mining (more on noise later). All the critiques out of the way though, the controller does run the 'whole Bitcoin software stack' that it's advertised to run, even though you have to manually install everything (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401747) and there's been no offical guide, until I made my own (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401729), even after repeated (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg57581898#msg57581898) questions (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg57801833#msg57801833) in (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg58195788#msg58195788) the (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg58197802#msg58197802) support (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg58740285#msg58740285) thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59203696#msg59203696) . (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59303204#msg59303204). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59332133#msg59332133). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59342210#msg59342210). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59529275#msg59529275). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59792613#msg59792613). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59900018#msg59900018). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg59901827#msg59901827). (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg60343781#msg60343781) Full Node Info This message is around 13 months old now; there is no block explorer, LN or solo mining so far and since it's included in the quote I'd like to point out that batch 1 and 2 shipped with a 500GB drive, which was obviously too small and did not have a 1-2 year buffer at all. I recently switched a node from 500GB to 1TB, even though I already had pulled indexes and chainstate off the 500 gig drive. So I'd say the time where 500GB was enough for a full node, has passed less than 1 year after that message.The Apollo Full Node runs the latest release binaries from bitcoincore.org, and is automatically configured and setup at the system level. It will start syncing a clean chain state from block 0 on your nvme SSD on first boot, and is capable of downloading a full unpruned node on its 500 GB drive with a 1-2 year buffer. This is the core that will enable us to release additional apps and services in the coming months and years (solo mining, block explorer, Lightning network all planned in the short term), and allow you the user to verify your own transactions and chain state without needing to trust anyone else. Of course, the blockchain is not yet over 500GB, but with chainstate and additional files, the Bitcoin directory is now at almost (or over) 500GB. It's good that they now ship these devices with 1TB drives; that's enough headroom for all the extra software, too. Code: orangepi4:admin:# du -ch /media/nvme/Bitcoin/blocks/blk*.dat | tail -n1 Code: orangepi4:admin:# du -ch /media/nvme/Bitcoin Noise / is it quiet? The subject of noise is pretty important to me. It is my main motivation for getting pod and stick miners instead of industrial ones. I like the cooling design of the hashboard. But if you've got some experience with CPU wattages and what heatsinks are required to cool 200 or even 300 Watts, it will be no big surprise to you that a single 95mm fan can't silently cool off +200W of energy.
As noted earlier, I mostly mined on https://kano.is/. It's a PPLNS pool, so you only get paid if the pool finds a block and you get rewarded for the last 3 days of shares. Quote from: https://kano.is/index.php?k=payout We use PPLNS (Pay Per Last N Shares) PPLNS means that when a block is found, the block reward is shared among the last N shares that miners sent to the pool, up to when the block was found. The N value the pool uses is 3 days. At the time of writing, Kano's last block was #706643; just shy of 236 days ago. Therefore I got no payouts from Kano. CoinWarz (https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/bitcoin/calculator?h=3.00&p=200.00&pc=0.05&pf=0.09&d=30283293547737.00000000&r=6.25000000&er=1&btcer=19208.01610000&ha=TH&hc=17999.99&hs=0&hq=1) estimates a 3TH/s miner to get roughly 0.00001246BTC per day, so just over 1,000 satoshis. This is roughly the performance I got on NiceHash, as well. It's not much, and therefore I don't think running this device on any level below Turbo (3TH/s) makes any sense. At that point (if you don't care about a somewhat meaningful hashrate), USB stick miners might be more interesting. I own some Compac F sticks (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5355470.0) and they can give you a silent operation, less upfront cost and better efficiency than the Apollo hashboard. Custom Linux There's a reason this point is the last one and follows directly the 'profitability' topic. A big selling point for the Apollo BTC (especially in conjunction with the price) is that it's not just a pod miner, but that you get a full node and can run a 'full Bitcoin stack'. As mentioned earlier; having this unit mine on kano pool with the stock OS, feels like a bit of a paperweight. No daily payouts, no Electrum server for your SPV wallets and no Lightning. The good news is that it it can run those things. It's just that there are no OS images or instructions provided by jstefanop. Ever since I went through the whole manual install process myself (honestly I procrastinated that for a couple months), it instantly became so much more useful. We talked about this in the support thread and assumed that a custom install will require a short USB cable going from the hashboard to the Pi, but I'm pretty glad I got it working through the internal GPIO; so there's no external / visible changes at all. In case anyone's still looking for it, here's the link to my guide. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401729 Unfortunately, I couldn't get openSUSE to run on the Orange Pi, so I resorted to the most reasonable, officially supported OS which was OS Support: Android 8.1 Ubuntu 16.04 Ubuntu 18.04 Debian 9 I'm generally quite worried about the security of the stock OS. I honestly see it as just a of proof-of-concept and to check that the hardware works right; other than that it's pretty risky to use it as-is; the Armbian version is outdated, the software packages are outdated and you have to keep nodeJS 9 on it to have the web UI, which people will inevitably port-forward it to the internet to be able to access it remotely. Just a disaster waiting to happen. The web GUI, which is admittedly pretty useful, doesn't work without installing outdated nodeJS. I did install it though, and it gave me angry warnings. I left instructions for installing it in my guide, but opted out of doing so myself. On the miner side, you honestly don't really need more insights than what the pool website tells you, i.e.: 'is my hashrate where it's supposed to be?'. The Bitcoin Core node you can easily check on using bitcoin-cli getblockchaininfo and for your Lightning Node there's no web GUI provided by Futurebit anyway, so you'll use Ride-The-Lightning (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5366854.msg58233721#msg58233721) for that. There's no real conclusion since that's in the TL;DR already, but I again do think it's a potent, little machine, with a tiny size and it can run everything you need at a reasonable noise level. I'd just repeat that it's infinitely more useful once you do install that stuff yourself, onto a fresh, up-to-date, secure Linux distribution. And remember you pay $100 premium on the off-the-shelf parts; so do consider buying those separately and connecting via USB to a 'hashboard-only' Apollo unit. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 19, 2022, 12:23:14 AM Reserved
Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: DaveF on June 20, 2022, 04:50:14 PM I had a batch 1 full node and sold it on eBay last year for a very nice profit. I was going to keep it but the inability to update it and running outdated software (even back then) just made me skittish.
Like you I never had any issues running it, but leaving that many gaping security holes on 1 little box was not something I wanted. I have picked up the base unit since then and have a nice USB cable running to it from a machine that is up to date. NOW, I also know that the old bitmain gear I have running here is also running possibly vulnerable OSs BUT the old versions of Node and Armbian have known vulnerabilities. I have not seen that much about the bitmain stuff. Had you put out the how to guide last year I might have tried it. But since there are other ways to run it, that is how I went. -Dave Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: dkbit98 on June 20, 2022, 06:53:01 PM I preordered this Apollo BTC (batch 3) 'full unit' late summer 2021, paid it in full and received it pretty exactly 6 months later. One thing I don't like about preorders is possible long waiting time and uncertain delivery date, but I guess you used to it with Apollo and Passport hardware wallet :DIt's not really quiet unless you clock it down I think it can be done even without clocking it down.Maybe replacing fan with some Noctua quiet alternative (I think someone managed to do it with Apollo), and adding additional layer of isolation box would do wonders, for people who love DIY stuff. I am interested to know whats your opinion and experience with Orange Pi 4 compared to Raspbnerry Pi 4? I heard they are usually stronger and faster than Rpi's but they are also heating more. Good thing is that you can always use most components for some other projects, if one day you decide not to use it for Bitcoin full node anymore. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 21, 2022, 02:01:37 AM Had you put out the how to guide last year I might have tried it. But since there are other ways to run it, that is how I went. Totally fair call. As I said: if you don't yet have a node and you're looking for a decent, compact hardware bundle that doesn't look or feel hacked together; this is not only the only option available, but a very good one, too.However: [1] If you're not ready to do a custom install, don't get it due to security issues and limited capabilities out of the box. Get the miner one instead and hook it up to any PC. [2] If you're not ready to spend at least $100 more for getting it all in one box, and especially if you already have a Bitcoin full node and just don't need a second one, a 'only miner' unit will make much more sense, too. I preordered this Apollo BTC (batch 3) 'full unit' late summer 2021, paid it in full and received it pretty exactly 6 months later. One thing I don't like about preorders is possible long waiting time and uncertain delivery date, but I guess you used to it with Apollo and Passport hardware wallet :DIt's not really quiet unless you clock it down I think it can be done even without clocking it down.Maybe replacing fan with some Noctua quiet alternative (I think someone managed to do it with Apollo), and adding additional layer of isolation box would do wonders, for people who love DIY stuff. Keep in mind the Apollo comes with a high-pressure fan that revs up to over 3,000 RPM. Also, honestly just putting another fan on top did wonders, without putting yourself or your home at risk (e.g. by a bad replacement fan or bad installation of it). Since if that secondary fan fails, you still have the one that the unit ships with and which can cool it well enough (just louder). I am interested to know whats your opinion and experience with Orange Pi 4 compared to Raspbnerry Pi 4? I haven't done any research on the topic, but it sounds plausible. It has a pretty large (and pretty loud - when it's not overshadowed by the miner's fan) 40mm fan on a heatsink, whereas passive cooling cases exist for the Raspberry Pi 4. My biggest complaint is that there is little to no real online community around it and you just get Armbian as a precompiled OS; so very limited software support.I heard they are usually stronger and faster than Rpi's but they are also heating more. It doesn't feel very fast either; since it's slower than all of my computers, nodes, and servers (even the laptop node upgraded to 8GB of DDR3 RAM and upgraded SATA SSD), I feel the claim of it being 'comparable to a desktop computer' (or even higher claims) questionable and misleading. It overheated when building Bitcoin Core (probably still had some heat from the hashboard which was just shut down). All in all, it doesn't feel like a significant upgrade in speed over a Raspberry Pi 4, it costs more and has less support. If you don't mind the size and higher energy consumption, I'd probably recommend to spend those $100 on a used x86 machine of some kind (desktop or laptop), but if you insist on SBC, I prefer the Raspberry stuff. Good thing is that you can always use most components for some other projects, if one day you decide not to use it for Bitcoin full node anymore. It will be much more profitable flipping it; usually you can get a bit more than what you paid for in the 'ASIC miner' market due to limited availability. But it's possible, yes.Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: DaveF on June 21, 2022, 02:12:48 AM If, and that's a big if they can really get these stateside for $99
https://www.gaminghunt.net/2022/06/04/n6000-x86-single-board-computer/ I think it's going to be very interesting to see how many things that are now RPi based will go in this direction. Yes it's more then a Pi and you still have to add memory, but it's got a lot more power to do a lot more things. AND it's a lot more expandable. Just checked on my Apollo, now been running for close to 5 months. I took it down the end of January when I was stuck at home after surgery to clean it been running ever since I started it again. -Dave Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 21, 2022, 11:31:48 AM If, and that's a big if they can really get these stateside for $99 That looks interesting; kind of like a laptop motherboard without the laptop around it, and the price seems incredibly cheap for what it offers.https://www.gaminghunt.net/2022/06/04/n6000-x86-single-board-computer/ I think it's going to be very interesting to see how many things that are now RPi based will go in this direction. Yes it's more then a Pi and you still have to add memory, but it's got a lot more power to do a lot more things. AND it's a lot more expandable. On the other hand, it seems like ARM chips are somewhat on the rise with the new Apple stuff; however those are much more powerful ARM chips than what we get in SBCs. So maybe it's not the architecture's fault, but just that these little experimentation boards are not meant to be used as high-uptime mini-servers and / or 'Desktop replacements' (looking at you, Futurebit advertising.. ;)). Just checked on my Apollo, now been running for close to 5 months. I took it down the end of January when I was stuck at home after surgery to clean it been running ever since I started it again. That was my experience too; these units are solid and run for months without hitching. No arguing about that.Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: dkbit98 on June 21, 2022, 04:47:26 PM I don't think Noctua has a quiet 95mm fan. I've had great results with Noctua products in the past, but some of them are less silent than people think. For instance, their industrial fans have good static pressure and whatnot, but they're not nearly as quiet as the consumer stuff and actually pretty loud. I know that not all Noctua fans are that quiet like people think, but they are still representing synonym for quiet fans.Keep in mind the Apollo comes with a high-pressure fan that revs up to over 3,000 RPM. I think they don't have 95mm fans, only 92mm and bigger 120mm fans, but I guess you could make custom mod that fits anything, and bigger fans are usually more quiet and they cool better. They have one industrial 92mm fan with 2500 RPM and two 1200mm fans with 300 RPM's, but I think there ae other manufacturers like Gelid and Zalman. I haven't done any research on the topic, but it sounds plausible. It has a pretty large (and pretty loud - when it's not overshadowed by the miner's fan) 40mm fan on a heatsink, whereas passive cooling cases exist for the Raspberry Pi 4. My biggest complaint is that there is little to no real online community around it and you just get Armbian as a precompiled OS; so very limited software support. Best thing you can do to cool them down is to use something like Raspberry Pi 400 is doing with massive passive metallic heatsink cooler.It's totally silent and temperatures are reduced a lot, they are even better than regular Rpi with fan. https://i.imgur.com/zWntnpG.jpg If you don't mind the size and higher energy consumption, I'd probably recommend to spend those $100 on a used x86 machine of some kind (desktop or laptop), but if you insist on SBC, I prefer the Raspberry stuff. Yeah I know.I could buy very good used Thinkpad T series laptop for $50 to $100 and it would be much faster than Raspberry Pi or Orange Pi. :) Some of them can even run Coreboot open source firmware, instead of stock BIOS, and can be used to ran Mac OS in them. What I like about Rpi 400 is total silence element, and very low energy spending (only few wats). If, and that's a big if they can really get these stateside for $99 This looks interesting, and I didn't find it before when I looked for other Rpi alternatives.I still would never install wiNd0ws OS in device like this. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 21, 2022, 08:44:47 PM
For example, an Antminer S19 Pro (110Th) is roughly twice as efficient, only requiring 29.5J/TH (since it pulls 3250W and achieves 110TH/s). That's what I like about the Compac F: It uses an S17 chip. The S17 Pro sits at around 40J/TH and the Compac F, overclocked to 0.3TH/s at just below 15W, of course means a similar efficiency of ~45J/TH. Unfortunately since it's a single chip on a stick, you pay more 'overhead' (board, circuitry, packaging, shipping) than if it was a pod miner like the Apollo. I'm still eagerly waiting for a pod miner by sidehack.. ;)
I would guess that maybe if you do a full system upgrade, the device tree will be reset. As we can see in the custom install guide (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401730.msg60310485#msg60310485), to get the internal GPIO connection to the hashboard working, there are some custom tweaks to the device tree. I know that not all Noctua fans are that quiet like people think, but they are still representing synonym for quiet fans. Actually, now that you mention it, it could be 92mm. I only roughly measured and don't believe 95mm is a standard fan size. 92mm with 2500 RPM sounds like it should fit. But then again, you'll be looking at sinking even more money into an already expensive and not really ROI'ing device.I think they don't have 95mm fans, only 92mm and bigger 120mm fans but I guess you could make custom mod that fits anything, and bigger fans are usually more quiet and they cool better. To fit a larger fan inside the chassis, you would need to cut the chassis, though.. ???Best thing you can do to cool them down is to use something like Raspberry Pi 400 is doing with massive passive metallic heatsink cooler. That only works if the SoC is efficient / produces limited amounts of heat. I don't think the Orange Pi 4 can be passively cooled like that; from what I can tell it is rated to 5V, 4A input, while the Raspberry is sold with a 3A power supplyIt's totally silent and temperatures are reduced a lot, they are even better than regular Rpi with fan. https://i.imgur.com/zWntnpG.jpg This page also suggests it pulls much less power in typical workloads: Quote from: https://uni.hi.is/helmut/2021/06/07/power-consumption-of-raspberry-pi-4-versus-intel-j4105-system/ With 4 cores being busy, it consumes 6.0 W. If you don't mind the size and higher energy consumption, I'd probably recommend to spend those $100 on a used x86 machine of some kind (desktop or laptop), but if you insist on SBC, I prefer the Raspberry stuff. Yeah I know.I could buy very good used Thinkpad T series laptop for $50 to $100 and it would be much faster than Raspberry Pi or Orange Pi. :) Some of them can even run Coreboot open source firmware, instead of stock BIOS, and can be used to ran Mac OS in them. What I like about Rpi 400 is total silence element, and very low energy spending (only few wats). As you mention the 400: it sounds like a cool idea for a standalone node. I'm still dreaming of an off-grid full node that uses some sort of long-range wireless network, a solar panel, battery and maybe even a small hashboard for times of excess solar power. The 400 would be perfect in that scenario since it wouldn't have an internet connection to SSH into it, and of course it uses little power. Argh. I digress! Little extra nugget of information for you guys: the miner binary I found in the OS is the same one provided in the download section in the Apollo's forum topic. https://github.com/jstefanop/Apollo-Miner-Binaries/releases/ Furthermore, the binary is not stripped, so some basic security analysis can be done - just in case someone is into binary analysis (for finding exploits or verifying it's safe to use). Anyhow, in my custom linux install guide (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401730.msg60310488#msg60310488), I tried to sandbox the process a little bit through systemd, though I'll be the first to admit that it could be much better and if you recommend some improvements, let me know. Keep in mind I need hardware access to /dev/ to access the hashboard and internet access for receiving block templates and submitting shares. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 22, 2022, 01:39:57 PM I wonder what their OS based on? I don't expect stuff break easily if it's based on conservative OS (such as Debian and Rocky Linux). No need to wonder! It's Armbian. I will boot my 'stock microSD' later to check again what exact version it is and add it in the original post. I think it's even the latest LTS version, but just a lot of packages are outdated.Could you check the exact version and variant? From armbian page for Orange Pi 4[1], their latest OS is either based on Debian Bullseye. Ubuntu Focal and Ubuntu Jammy. NodeJS version on those OS are 10.19.0[2], 12.22.5[3] and 12.22.9[4]. I find it's hard to believe Armbian more conservative than Debian. [1] https://www.armbian.com/orange-pi-4/#kernels-archive-all (https://www.armbian.com/orange-pi-4/#kernels-archive-all) [2] https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/nodejs (https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/nodejs) [3] https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/nodejs (https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/nodejs) [4] https://packages.ubuntu.com/jammy/web/nodejs (https://packages.ubuntu.com/jammy/web/nodejs) Sure, so on my custom install, I used the latest available Armbian: Code: ___ ____ _ _ _ It ships with outdated nodeJS, interestingly. It had EOL in April, but since I have no nodeJS services running on the custom install anyway, it should be fine. In any case, as soon as you install something that runs on node, all install guides tell you to update nodeJS, so it will be fine. Code: ~:% node --version But if I boot the latest Futurebit OS (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg57091052#msg57091052) - released over half a year ago (12/17/21) - I get this login screen. It's 5 releases behind on the Linux kernel and behind by one major Debian version. Code: _____ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ Code: ~# node --version Interestingly, it comes with nodeJS v14, but then I don't understand why on GitHub (https://github.com/jstefanop/apolloui/issues/6), I was told that Try to use Node version 9 By now it's the only way Compilation on the latest nodeJS version didn't work; hence I went on GitHub to ask. I will try again with nodeJS 14, which is by the way the oldest LTS version of node ('Maintenance LTS' phase) and will be updated for just another 10 months. It would be much preferred to have ApolloUI be able to run on 16.x or 18.x, though. I'm not very familiar with Ubuntu, but this version history page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_version_history) suggests that 21.04 with Linux kernel 5.11 is EOL since 2022-01-20. The system says it's 21.05 with a 5.10 kernel. Code: uname -a Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: dkbit98 on June 22, 2022, 01:45:46 PM Actually, now that you mention it, it could be 92mm. I only roughly measured and don't believe 95mm is a standard fan size. 92mm with 2500 RPM sounds like it should fit. But then again, you'll be looking at sinking even more money into an already expensive and not really ROI'ing device. I don't know the place you are holding this Apollo device in your house, some different room or basement, and maybe you don't have problem with noise that is creating.For my devices I am always trying to reduce noise by doing some modification, but I am silence freak and I don't recommend this to anyone else. If you are ok with setup you have now, don't cut or change anything ;) That only works if the SoC is efficient / produces limited amounts of heat. I don't think the Orange Pi 4 can be passively cooled like that; from what I can tell it is rated to 5V, 4A input, while the Raspberry is sold with a 3A power supply I am not sure about Orange Pi, but I know that I can overclock Pi400 and it would still run cool and stable.It might be different story with Orange Pi especially if GPU is used for anything. Interesting thing is that they are working on their new OS that is Arch-based Linux distribution, unlike Raspberry that is using modified Debian based linux OS. Coreboot is a great addition to a trust-minimized node setup. It's questionable if that's needed for someone installing nodeJS 9 and a proprietary miner binary, though.. ;) My point was that I can use those laptops for multiple use cases, for anything related with Bitcoin.I am much more limited with Rpi devices. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 22, 2022, 01:52:01 PM Actually, now that you mention it, it could be 92mm. I only roughly measured and don't believe 95mm is a standard fan size. 92mm with 2500 RPM sounds like it should fit. But then again, you'll be looking at sinking even more money into an already expensive and not really ROI'ing device. I don't know the place you are holding this Apollo device in your house, some different room or basement, and maybe you don't have problem with noise that is creating.For my devices I am always trying to reduce noise by doing some modification, but I am silence freak and I don't recommend this to anyone else. If you are ok with setup you have now, don't cut or change anything ;) Coreboot is a great addition to a trust-minimized node setup. It's questionable if that's needed for someone installing nodeJS 9 and a proprietary miner binary, though.. ;) My point was that I can use those laptops for multiple use cases, for anything related with Bitcoin.I am much more limited with Rpi devices. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: BlackHatCoiner on June 22, 2022, 07:01:10 PM I had seen that the thread had some activity, but didn't get involved into the discussion. Nice review! I'm glad you have the time, money and passion to buy these and show them to us.
So, to summarize, it's a full node, lightning node and ASIC miner, all-in-one? It, sure, looks cool, but is there an essential benefit I don't see? If you want to mine, which is required otherwise you wouldn't buy such thing, doesn't it get cheaper if you purchase the ASICs directly from the company that makes them? Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 22, 2022, 11:59:04 PM I had seen that the thread had some activity, but didn't get involved into the discussion. Nice review! I'm glad you have the time, money and passion to buy these and show them to us. Thanks for your time reading it and for your comments! I really consider selling it due to current market conditions and buying a 'miner only' unit later when Bitcoin is at a higher price. If that works out, I won't have paid much (if anything for it).. ;) But it was definitely an investment, almost 1000 bucks and waiting 6 months is not something I often do.So, to summarize, it's a full node, lightning node and ASIC miner, all-in-one? Yes, that was pretty much my TL;DR. ;) And a very compact all-in-one; compare to the CD in this picture.It, sure, looks cool, but is there an essential benefit I don't see? If you want to mine, which is required otherwise you wouldn't buy such thing, doesn't it get cheaper if you purchase the ASICs directly from the company that makes them? Okay, maybe this should be clarified; I didn't explain this in detail indeed. The hashboard is a custom creation by jstefanop and uses 44 Bitfury ASIC chips (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5340015.msg57822277#msg57822277).You can neither buy these chips directly from Bitfury, nor can you get this hashboard from anyone stand-alone. Well, you basically get just the hashboard (with the casing and heatsink around it) if you get the 'miner only' unit from Futurebit. If you want to get a cheaper ASIC, the only route is industrial miners; but those are not suited for the home. Basically:
is there an essential benefit I don't see? For me there is also a bit of a philosophical aspect. This one little tiny box combines all of the integral parts of the Bitcoin network (if you do the custom install); what sets it apart from any other node-in-a-box is that it has a capable hashboard. It won't really ROI, but it gets you satoshi at basically market value, without KYC.Also keep in mind: if enough people ran such hardware and there were sudden mining bans, these little guys could take up some of the slack while the industrial miners are relocated. In case the 'powerful gear' were to be banned (confiscated?) altogether, these home miners could effectively keep the whole thing running in a super decentralized manner. So more people running Apollos (or other home miners) would be extremely helpful for Bitcoin. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: nullama on June 23, 2022, 01:24:14 AM ~snip~ Yeah, I also noticed michelem09 in the webui repo. My guess is that jstefanop hired him to create the Apollo Web UI. He created minera (https://github.com/getminera/minera), a popular miner dashboard that is now deprecated.
Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 23, 2022, 10:36:28 AM Yeah, I also noticed michelem09 in the webui repo. My guess is that jstefanop hired him to create the Apollo Web UI. He created minera (https://github.com/getminera/minera), a popular miner dashboard that is now deprecated. That's a sensible guess; in any case I'll try to compile the UI again with 14.x, but honestly it's really not needed. I used to check it regularly but now that I run the Apollo without web GUI, I don't really miss it either.It was also sometimes dodgy; like not saving a changed pool config. If you just SSH into the device instead, make your changes to the service file and issue a quick sudo service miner restart, such issues don't happen. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 23, 2022, 01:16:21 PM That's weird decision. In such case, i would try to run ApolloUI on Docker container which has NodeJS 9. Sure; there are all sorts of ways to run insecure software in a 'it's probably fine' way - sandboxing, virtualization, dockerization -- with the assumption that it will even work in such a restricted scenario, as it will need access to the different files and processes to pull the information to be displayed.You're correct, Armbian 21.05 is based on EOL OS[1]. The kernel (5.10.35) has LTS support until 2026[2], but we know the developer ask you not to perform apt upgrade ;D. Yeah; I'll try my best with another attempt at running it on updated nodeJS versions, but honestly it's just fine without the UI and all the benefits you get from the custom Linux install heavily outweigh missing out on the web GUI.Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: PawGo on June 26, 2022, 01:12:40 PM Forgetting the mining part, if someone would like to have own node, electrum server, rcp browser and even maybe something like btcpay server, why not to buy „tiny dektop computer” like for example Lenovo M72e? I see you may get one on ebay for around $50 (+ probably better disk).
I think I will try to buy one and to configure as a personal node. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 26, 2022, 10:30:46 PM Forgetting the mining part, if someone would like to have own node, electrum server, rcp browser and even maybe something like btcpay server, why not to buy „tiny dektop computer” like for example Lenovo M72e? I see you may get one on ebay for around $50 (+ probably better disk). Absolutely; a SBC gives you the advantage of size and power consumption, but I'm a big fan of x86 nodes.I think I will try to buy one and to configure as a personal node. You may be aware of it; but I encourage to build such nodes, especially on used hardware, in [Guide] How to run a Bitcoin Core full node for under 50 bucks! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5364742.0). Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: ABCbits on June 27, 2022, 12:06:00 PM Forgetting the mining part, if someone would like to have own node, electrum server, rcp browser and even maybe something like btcpay server, why not to buy „tiny dektop computer” like for example Lenovo M72e? I see you may get one on ebay for around $50 (+ probably better disk). I think I will try to buy one and to configure as a personal node. On their website[1], they advertise Apollo as ready to use device though. It's more fair to compare it with product such as myNode One[2]. Forgetting the mining part, if someone would like to have own node, electrum server, rcp browser and even maybe something like btcpay server, why not to buy „tiny dektop computer” like for example Lenovo M72e? I see you may get one on ebay for around $50 (+ probably better disk). Absolutely; a SBC gives you the advantage of size and power consumption, but I'm a big fan of x86 nodes.I think I will try to buy one and to configure as a personal node. FYI, i just checked Lenovo M72e[3] and it's closer to Intel NUC rather than SBC. It use Intel processor. [1] https://www.futurebit.io/ (https://www.futurebit.io/) [2] https://mynodebtc.com/products/one (https://mynodebtc.com/products/one) [3] https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/withdrawnbook/M72e.pdf (https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/withdrawnbook/M72e.pdf) Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: dkbit98 on June 27, 2022, 04:52:45 PM For anyone who is interested... I just saw someone selling Futurebit Apollo BTC devices in Goods/Computer hardware (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5402988.0) section.
It's newbie member without any reputation, but if deal is good and if seller is real, maybe someone can get a decent price, instead of paying full price and wait many months for delivery. n0nce what do you think about this? :) Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: bearsVSbulls on June 27, 2022, 05:00:17 PM Is there any point in going into mining now? I only see news about miners surrendering and selling their equipment
Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 27, 2022, 05:41:03 PM For anyone who is interested... I just saw someone selling Futurebit Apollo BTC devices in Goods/Computer hardware (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5402988.0) section. I have no idea; they gave no price and I'm not sure I trust many users in here for $1000 or more - especially newbie accounts.It's newbie member without any reputation, but if deal is good and if seller is real, maybe someone can get a decent price, instead of paying full price and wait many months for delivery. n0nce what do you think about this? :) I'm looking to sell my full unit myself fairly soon, but will most probably do so in P2P fashion without shipping. Since you can get the miner new from Futurebit, I'd personally do that instead of buying used. Is there any point in going into mining now? I only see news about miners surrendering and selling their equipment You have to ask this in Mining speculation (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=81.0), my friend.. ;)Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: dkbit98 on June 28, 2022, 05:25:21 PM Since you can get the miner new from Futurebit, I'd personally do that instead of buying used. I think it's currently out of stock so you could only preorder it, and you would probably have to wait for months to receive it, if you ever receive it.Just finished talking with one tech guy from China, and he told me that situation with chip supply shortage is not getting any better. They can't even make simple boards now and it's unclear when situation will get better, maybe next month but nobody knows exactly. That is why I think that purchasing used stuff is good option in this case, if devices are in good condition. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: n0nce on June 28, 2022, 11:41:47 PM Since you can get the miner new from Futurebit, I'd personally do that instead of buying used. I think it's currently out of stock so you could only preorder it, and you would probably have to wait for months to receive it, if you ever receive it.The issue with used devices is that users are usually able to overclock and / or under-cool the ASICs through manual controls and there's no way of knowing whether that happened. But if you do want to get one from Europe and trust me more than other sellers (I always used Futurebit presets), you can always send me a DM, dkbit - I'd make an exception for you and sell the device online.. :) Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: jstefanop on August 04, 2022, 08:27:01 PM I must say that $300 for adding this SBC and SSD is steep. The 'hashboard only' option can be acquired for $524.99 right now, whereas the 'full unit' runs you $824.99. Buying an Orange Pi 4 and the exact same SSD right now, runs you pretty exactly $200, so it's a 50% premium. I'm not sure if you can just buy those yourself and mount them into a 'hashboard only' unit, or if there are missing mounting spots or holes on those. But from pictures, they look exactly the same. Just throwing an idea out there. Just saw this thread, thanks for the honest review. I do want to provide transparency whenever I can especially when it comes to comments like above when most people have no idea costs/development involved with a product like this. We call it "our" controller because it truly is, and there is nothing else on the market that even comes close to its performance for a Pi sized computer and thats mostly from the innovation with our custom SSD controller. AFAIK its the only SBC on the market that has 1TB R/W speeds which is why its so much faster than a PI when syncing. Sure the base board is off the shelf (we have custom changes to this as well), but we put in a lot of work to the overall system with the SSD components. Pricing, here is the our overall bulk costs we paid for Batch 2 and 3 for these components SBC:95 SSD:90 SD Card: 9 Custom SSD card: 19 Heatsinks/Fans/Wire harnesses and other small components: 25 Thats 240 and does not include imports costs/shipping costs/assembly/R&D etc etc. When all that is factored in we actually make a net loss on the full node units in relation to its price premium. The little profit we make is from the hashing unit itself. 300 is a steal for what you get, especially when compared to other full node only competitors. FYI most of the other issues especially around upgrade the base OS and security issues have been fixed in the latest image release. Title: Re: [Review] Apollo BTC - Full Node + Miner in a box Post by: MrMik on October 22, 2022, 03:30:43 AM Make your own judgement (maybe let me know what you think about this), but to me it appeared it's something custom, maybe even tailor-made for this application. Instead, it's the Orange Pi 4, which has less software and community support than a Raspberry Pi, and has unnecessary hardware like a GPU (https://orangepi.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=237&product_id=895). Thank you for this detailed review and the other related threads, my laptop is aching with all the open tabs that I want to read and use later on! However, there is at least one difference to the Orange Pi4 board which I spotted while trying to move the WiFi antenna to outside of the metal container: The 5VDC outlet is missing and there are cables soldered and glued instead of it, going to the hashboard instead of to the outside of the metal container. I wonder why the hole is in the container and why it is labelled 5VDC OUT. I think the board design was changed after the housing design was finished and so the hole was left in the box. This former 5VDC outlet hole come in handy for routing the WiFi antenna to the outside. A rubber grommet helps to prevent chafing against the metal edges. |