Bitcoin Forum

Hi all,

I first started investing in crypto 4 months ago and up till now have just left all my investments on the exchange but thinking about buying a cold wallet to store my crypto on as I am buying more and more lately so want it all to be as safe as possible.

I hold the majority of my crypto on Coinbase with a little bit on FTX & Crypto.com.

I am looking for advice on which cold wallet to go with? Ideally I would like something that is easy to set up and use for a beginner like myself and not too expensive although I don’t mind paying a lot if it is worth it.

Would also be interesting to hear who is for and against using cold wallets and the reason why?

All suggestions/ advice welcome

Thanks

By Cold wallet, I guess you mean hardware wallet. Am I Right?
Note that a cold wallet doesn't necessarily have to be a hardware wallet. Any wallet created on an air-gapped device is also considered as a cold wallet.

If you want to to buy a hardware wallet, I recommend you to go for an open-source hardware wallet. Trezor is the most popular one.
I think the topic created by dkbit98 should be helpful to you.
[ LIST] Open Source Hardware Wallets (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288971.0)

There is no contradiction that hard wallets are safer from outside risk factors. Actually there are many hard wallet options out there like on this list (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5282364.0), so far there are only 2 brands that are most recommended on this forum and are more beginner friendly, Ledger and Trezor. They have varying prices according to the type and features of each.

Yes hardware wallet , like I said above I am new to all this  ;D

I will have a look through the list thanks.


Is a hardware wallet a must? Or is leaving my crypto all on Coinbase OK?

How likely is it that Coinbase could get into trouble one day?

You don't have to use a hardware wallet. But that's recommended.


You shouldn't do that. If you keep your coins on coinbase, they will have full control over your fund. They can freeze your account at any time for any reason.


They have full control over your fund and everything is possible


As said, it's not recommended to keep your coins on an exchange or any custodial service.
You should always keep your coin on a non-custodial wallet, so have full control over your fund. Non-custodial wallet is a wallet in which you have full control over you keys.

If you want more security, you should use a cold wallet. This means that the keys should never connect to the internet.
One way is to use a hardware wallet and another way is to use an open-source non-custodial wallet on an air-gapped device.

Getting a Ledger or a Trezor is good enough. I wouldn't recommend trying out other hardware wallet brands outside of both, and probably Coldcard if you're a bitcoin-only type of guy.


https://cryptosec.info/exchange-hacks

It depends on how much you have there, I'd recommend if the amount you're storing on the exchange exceeds 10x the price of a hardware wallet, you're probably better off getting one.

If you have a smaller amount of funds you can also make a wallet with electrum and store your funds there (electrum.org - their wallet also works quite well with ledger and trezor).


We can't know for sure but a lot of things can happen:
1. What if the exchange closes and you're out of the cryptospace for so long you lose your funds due to that.
2. The exchange could lose money due to a hack or poor financing.

There's always a risk with leaving funds on an exchange but there might also be a risk in entrusting yourself too.

I'd say ledger and trezor are the best warm wallets (cold wallets have no online interaction and require it to remain secure).

I have £3,000 on coinbase so its getting to a stage where I feel I need to move this over to something more secure.

I am just totally new to this so would just like an easy to use wallet that isn't too complicated.

I have a question, if I was to move my crypto off of Coinbase and onto a hardware wallet - what if the price of a crypto I hold shoots up and I want to cash out profits?

How easy is it to trade when your crypto is not on an exchange but in a wallet of some kind?

Your feeling is right. It's not secure to keep your coins on an exchange.


You can also use electrum. It's open-source and give you full control over your fund.
(Download electrum only from its official website (https://electrum.org/#home) and do not forget to verify your download (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5240594.0).)

Note that electrum only supports bitcoin and if don't create your wallet on an air-gapped device, it wouldn't be as secure as a hardware wallet.
For 100% security, you should use electrum on an air-gapped device or as already said, use a hardware wallet.


Then you will have to a make transaction and move your coins to an exchange.

Cold storage is a way to ensure the security of your coins if you have basic experience of how to do it and it is almost free.
 if you do not know how to do cold storage you may put your coins at risk.

Since you are a beginner and you have the money, I suggest you buy a hardware wallet, it is true that it costs a few dollars, but it gives you high security and requires you to take reasonable care, such as not sharing the seeds with anyone, make sure that you bought the product from the company and that it is not counterfeit, make sure that you generated Fresh seeds and that your computer does not have viruses or is physically connected to another device (this includes USB, etc.)

I have just been looking at the different ledgers available.

They range from £55 to £155. - are the cheaper ones good or is it better to spend more on the expensive ones? This is something I plan to have for a long time after all.

I would like something that is easy to transfer my crypto to and from exchanges with less hassle as possible.

The Ledger S still works perfectly for me. Read on the subreddit of Ledger for you to have an idea of what current problems have the more expensive ones which is the Ledger X: https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/

The subreddit: /r/ledger is the older version and there's a pinned post there that everyone should go to the /r/ledgerwallet.

And while you're thinking of what you must buy, move your assets out of the exchanges as soon as possible. You'll never know when those exchanges will do an unexpected halting of withdrawals and transactions. That's a thing today in the news if you're following it.

Hardware wallet is not a must if you technically know what to do to keep your funds safe.
Keeping them on exchange is usually not a good idea: their policy may chance, they can get hacked or go bankrupt and so on. People keep telling: not your keys, not your coins.

3k pounds is, however, not a life changing amount (or maybe not yet) and I can understand that you may not want to invest more, especially now with the bear market. Plus the exchange will get a withdrawal fee off you.
However, on long term you have to find a safe way for storing your coins. Good luck in finding the best solution for you. As many said, it may be that this solution is a cheap hardware wallet.

I have an Iphone and have read the Ledger Nano S only supports Android so looks like I will need the Nano X?

I also am invested in 10 different crypto not just 1 or 2, does that also mean I need the Nano X?

It seems so, if we look at the following comparison chart (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015259693-Choose-your-Ledger-device?docs=true), where Ledger Nano X connected via Bluetooth seems to be the solution for IOS (apparently, IOS 9 or above (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015216913-Frequently-asked-questions?docs=true)).

You can verify beforehand if Ledger is going to support those 10 different coins/tokens you mention here: https://www.ledger.com/supported-crypto-assets/coin

Even if you were able to use Ledger Nano S with your topology, you could still support having hundreds of different coins/tokens custodied by the device, but likely needing to play the remove and add app game to manage them. The said game is not necessary on the other Ledger devices (they support around 100 different apps), due to their larger capacity.

Currently, most of the hardware wallets do not support IOS devices except on MacBooks or any MacOS devices.

Do you have other devices like laptops or a PC? Hardware wallets like ledger nano mostly support Windows OS and Android OS but not in IOS devices.

Only safepal s1 and ellipal hardware wallets that I know support IOS devices but these are not well-known HW wallets, unlike Ledger and Trezor.

I have just typed in the 10 cryptos I hold and only Algorand showed - does this mean I will not be able to store the other 9?

I have a laptop but have mainly used my phone up till now with crypto. Is it not convenient being able to use Iphone or do you just get used to using laptop?

Can you list them here? It might be that some are tokens on other networks (like erc20 for ethereum).

---

What wasn't mentioned above was that if you do want to move your coins to an exchange from a wallet (particularly bitcoin) you might end up waiting an hour or two for the transaction to confirm - that might not be long but it might be worth remembering.

I have just watched a few comparison videos on the different ledgers available and I am leaning towards the Nano S plus. Yes the nano X has bluetooth but don't feel I need it.

This is my list:

Bitcoin
Quant
Algorand
Cronos
Decentraland
Gala
Polygon
Enjin
Shiba Inu
LCX


Will these all be ok to store on Ledge S plus?

For start, don't use any centralized exchanges for storing and holding your coins, they should be used only for trading.
You can use some good old laptop and dedicate it only for usage of Bitcoin and crypto related, installing wallet, etc, that is good second step.
After that you can think about hardware wallets, but I would only suggest open source and reliable devices.
Best for your case is Trezor (use it with pasdsphrase), Bitbox or Keystone hardware wallet.

Purchasing hardware wallet for storing shitcoins is like you are using a vault to store bunch of bananas  :P
I would never suggest ledger devices to anyone, they have closed source firmware, lot of issues with their firmare, display, and model X with batteries.
Ledger also have a habit of discontinuing their products a lot, and stop supporting them after few years.

First person I have seen who is against ledger, interesting.

I am a beginner and don’t want anything too complicated that is all I ask. Just somewhere I can store the crypto I purchase safely.

Being new to all this is normal. If you are interested in questions regarding hardware wallets, then I strongly recommend that you at least periodically look at this section - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=261.0. Here you will find answers to most of your questions without having to create separate topics and posts. The same issues have been discussed over and over again.

It can happen at any moment and you need to be mentally prepared for it. Better yet, prepare financially and withdraw all your crypto from there as soon as possible.

Good to see you care about your assets. Storing your crypto on a centralized exchange or custodial wallet is highly risky. I have been using Ledger Nano X for Storing my cryptos. I haven't found any issue yet and it's user-friendly to use. I haven't used Trezor so no idea how it has been working. You may choose any from Ledger or Trezor. Both are the most popular on the market right now.

Remember, buying hardware wallets doesn't mean your crypto is safe unless you secure your seed phrase. It's more important than buying a device. Lossing or compromising your seed phrase means potentially you lost your assets, no matter which wallets you have been using. Write your seed on multiple pieces of paper and keep it in safe places. So you will have multiple backups. Also, maintain a handwritten note book to secure your wallet credentials.

I am leaning towards the Nano S plus but was just thinking I have a Chromebook , am I able to connect the ledger to this or does it have to be a different kind of laptop?

Then Ledger Nano S won't be an option for you. Most of us owners of Nano S are just accessing it through PC/Laptop via Ledger live and that update of connecting it to an android phone was likely their most recent update for an S version.

For the Nano X, it got some issues that have been found and I don't know if they're already fix. Still do some research towards it before buying.

As long as it has a USB port then you can connect the S there and also you need to download Ledger Live on the Chromebook or any device(desktop/laptop) you use.

Think I am going to go for the Nano S Plus - have watched a few review videos on it and sounds very good for crypto storage. I will only use it when plugged into a laptop so don’t need the Nano X, many say it is not worth the extra £70 as the Nano S plus does everything you need it to do.

If you plan to connect it to a Chromebook as you stated in a prior post, you won’t be able to exploit it through Ledger Live. Checkout the requirements here (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/5141511735453-Can-I-run-Ledger-Live-on-a-Chromebook-?support=true).

Im not really familiar with most of those coins/tokens on your list (except for bitcoin essentially), but I tried all 10 and got 9 hits. The only one that is that didn’t show is an ERC-20 token, and can therefore be safeguarded with Ledger, although Ledger Live may not show it (see this reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/s1her6/gala_token_send_to_nanox/)).

Gone off alts long(ish) ago. Check the list in a year or two, and see if their ranking in the top 50 still stands ...

We have a macbook also so will just connect the ledger to there.

Strange you are not familiar with my cryptos mentioned, most are in the top 50  ;D

You have the right to choose the device that you like, but keep in mind, in the case of Ledger Nano S Plus, it will be better if you provide as little personal data as possible when buying. Ledger has repeatedly been involved in incidents with the theft of personal information about its users. Ideally, pay for the purchase of the device with a dollar, indicating the fictitious details of the buyer and, instead of the real address, indicate the post office or other place from where you can pick up the package. This is the case if you buy on the official website. By the way, don't forget about resellers, from which, in principle, you can buy for cash, which will be better if points of sale are within your reach.

Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood something. So I had to delete it so it wouldn't be confusing.

Cold wallets are a great option for storing your bitcoins because they are not actually connected to the internet. A higher level of security than a hot wallet is one of the advantages of a cold wallet itself. Cold wallet have also been adopted by most of the exchanges to secure investors' funds, but keeping them on the exchange is not a good solution either. Have your own cold wallet and that is the best advice, but make sure you choose a really secure wallet as most people recommend based on user experience. Trezor, Ledger Nano S and Ledger Nano X KeepKey are some of the options. So adjust your needs and funds.

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Done, thanks.

I am here according to my needs with Ledger Nano X hardware to store my assets in the future of course from all the widely available device wallets you have to do some research to get started, and better see from sharing sources like Youtube how the advantages and disadvantages so that you know which one to choose according to your own needs because of course everyone has their own opinion.

Each hardware wallet has its own advantages, I've seen the reviews of all of them but in the end I prefer the Ledger Nano X until now it's comfortable for me, so so far there haven't been any problems.

I think you got something wrong here. What is your definition of the term "cold wallet"? What do crypto exchanges have to do with it?

Putting it simply, the term "cold wallet" is used to describe cryptocurrency wallets that don't use the Internet connection. As such, some hardware wallets are often considered cold storage solutions.
Therefore, I think you should rephrase your reply so that there is no confusion.

If the assets owned by the OP are all in bitcoin, then I believe electrum is also a good choice in addition to its need to have a hardware wallet. It's just that I prefer to suggest creating an electrum wallet without an internet connection and keeping all the seeds and private keys safe regardless of whether it's creating them into multiple parts or storing them in multiple places.

I probably wouldn't agree if the OP kept his bitcoins (assets) on a centralized exchange long term. The risk is too great and we have seen the fact that many exchanges have been hacked before even if the exchange has a good reputation. Binance is an example, they too have been hacked. So there is no good reason to trade them all our crypto in the long term except for trading needs.

So I have 90% of my crypto on coinbase - for a beginner like myself how easy/difficult is it to transfer everything from coinbase to the ledger Nano S plus?

I have just watched a few videos briefly and it doesnt look as straight forward as I hoped it would be.

It depends on a few things... With Trezor Suite, you can directly sell your cryptocurrencies ^{[a step shorter]}, but it's mostly available to users from European countries:

• Suite manual:Sell cryptocurrencies in Trezor Suite (https://wiki.trezor.io/Suite_manual:Sell_cryptocurrencies_in_Trezor_Suite)
• Compare crypto exchanges and buy bitcoin instantly with Trezor (https://blog.trezor.io/compare-crypto-exchanges-and-buy-bitcoin-instantly-with-trezor-e0246a6ad183)
• Selling cryptocurrencies (https://invity.io/faq/sell)

He/she isn't the only one! Back in the day, they were a somewhat reliable brand but everything they've produced in the past couple of years has been nothing but trash.
^{- Since you're leaning towards the plus version, I'd suggest reading the last three pages of "this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376279.60)" thread to familiarize yourself with some of its issues.}

Which part is harder for you?

I would like to recommend against Ledger products in general.
We've got a few threads, such as:

Ledger Live Liars Data Collection (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5391971.0)
Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5370521.0)
Ledger Nano X - Black box 2022 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5386831.0)
Ledger Nano X Battery Pandemic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5358741.0)

So between terrible data handling and privacy practices, bottom-of-the-barrel hardware quality as well as closed-source firmware and hardware, I see no reason for using such a device or giving this company any of my personal information (e-mail address or even personal address for shipping).

I don't recommend a specific product, but rather recommend to do your own research, for example having a look at:
Open Source Hardware Wallets (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288971.0)
AirGapped Hardware Wallets (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5361456.0)
WalletScrutiny reproducible open-source hardware wallets (https://walletscrutiny.com/?verdict=reproducible&platform=hardware)

Ledger Nano S plus is merely an electronic device with which to conveniently and securely sign transactions in different blockchains. I mean, its functionality is very limited; it boils down to showing you some information on a small display that you can verify without having to be connected to an online server or even to a personal computer. It is a stand-alone device with a single purpose, but it also needs some GUI  installed either on a PC or mobile so that users can manage a device by creating receive addresses, managing accounts, controlling coins, creating unsigned transactions, etc. In order to withdraw from your Coinbase account, you first need to set up your wallet (hardware wallet + GUI) to be able to generate receive address. Once you have done that, you are ready to make a withdrawal request from your Coinbase account. Also, make sure that you back up all information (such as seed phrase) to be able to restore access to your funds in the future should something unfortunate occurs with your signing device.

It's not all in Bitcoin. He posted a list previously. He owns Bitcoin and 9 other altcoins.

---

Since you are considering buying the new Ledger HW, I feel I should mention a few things.

Ledger together with Trezor are two of the most popular hardware wallet brands and they have sold millions of devices. I have been using a Ledger Nano S for years and have no problem with it. Ledger is closed-source though. They have suffered a hacking incident where private data from their customers were leaked and posted publicly. I am talking about names, addresses, phone numbers, etc. Private keys and seeds are not vulnerable. A lot of people lost their trust in Ledger because of this and the way they handled the entire situation. Take note though that Trezor also suffered a similar customer data leak, but on a smaller scale.

Now a little bit about their hardware wallets.

Nano S
A good and reliable little device that gets the job done. No batteries or Bluetooth and only supports USB connection.
It's biggest problem is the small internal memory. Right now, you can only have two crypto apps installed at the same time. This does not mean that you can't store the same coins and tokens as on the Nano X and Nano S+ because you can. But you will be required to uninstall and install the apps each time you want to interact with that particular coin. This is a process that takes 20-30 seconds.

Nano X
Works wirelessly via Bluetooth but can also be connected with a USB cable. Personally, the Bluetooth feature is a big turn off for me. This device has a bigger screen and more memory. It can hold up to 100 coins at the same time, so the installing/uninstalling you would have to do with the Nano S, isn't needed on Nano X.

Unfortunately, the new generations of the Nano X have several problems. Most notably are the issues with the batteries. It goes as far as getting a product you can't even charge or use at all.

Nano S Plus
Nano S Plus is a Nano S on steroids. Bigger screen, more memory in a similar package. The biggest problem with this one is that they were too hasty to release it. Because of that, it lacks (lacked) support for several assets. The same ones that work on the older devices. I am not sure at what stage they are in resolving those issues.
 
My favorite is still the Nano S. If it hadn't been for the security incident with customer data, I would still recommend buying it. But it's not only that. The Nano S is getting discontinued. It's no longer manufactured and they might drop support for it entirely in a few years. We don't know that. I would never buy the Nano X and I am uncertain about the Nano S Plus. The older generations of the Nano X were OK (battery-wise).  

So now reading a lot of negativity about ledger I am confused and unsure.

As mentioned, I am a beginner having only started investing in crypto February this year.

I would just like a device I can store my crypto on with as least hassle as possible - Ideally paying no more then £100 for it.

Any advice welcome, thanks

Trezor Model One (https://shop.trezor.io/product/trezor-one-black) fits your description, but it doesn't support ^[directly] a portion of your portfolio ^{[Algorand, Gala, Cronos and LCX (https://trezor.io/coins/)]}.
^{- It seems that you can use a third-party wallet like Exodus for storing both Gala and Cronos [source (https://www.exodus.com/status/#assets)] with your Trezor device.}

---

With a bit of leeway, you can also go with the "multi-edition of BitBox02 (https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/bitbox02-multi-edition-2/) ^{[it equates to roughly £110, but I did manage to find a 5% working discount code (BITTEN)]}".
^{- No support for "Algorand and Gala (https://shiftcrypto.ch/coins/)"!}

The Ledger Nano S plus supports all the crypto I own , I think.

Is this not the most important thing when deciding which hardware wallet to go with? Even if it has some cons, the main thing I want is my crypto to be secure.

There is no point me purchasing a device that does not support half the crypto I own.

To some extent, it matters but I wouldn't label it as the most important thing in purchasing a certain type of hardware wallet... If you really care about the security of your cryptos, you shouldn't have a portfolio that's composed of mostly alternative cryptocurrencies ^{[most of them just follow BTCitcoin, and the majority of users consider them as shitcoins + sooner or later, "this is going to be the outcome (https://99bitcoins.com/deadcoins/)"]}, that's not a proper way of diversifying. The main issue with Ledger as a whole is the fact that they're no longer that reliable and if you decide to go with one of their products, prepare yourself to face some issues as soon as you get your hands on their products ^{[I'm not implying that other brands are perfect, but they tend to have more satisfied customers]}!

In that case, I guess the (not sure why) pretty unpopular, but super cheap, and reproducible open-source KeepKey (https://walletscrutiny.com/hardware/keepKey/) could be an option. It costs less than a Ledger, it's been around for 7 years and supports lots of coins.

Keep in mind its tiny memory means it only supports a handful of coins (at most) at a time. If you dabble with more than 2-3 currencies, your workflow will include deleting and installing individual 'apps' for each cryptocurrency every time you have to interact with that currency (like a deposit or withdrawal).

To add to what SFR10 said about diversifying and investing in altcoins - since you mentioned being new to cryptocurrency - I'd just like to recommend giving this thread a read, too.
What Can Happen If You Want to Trade Cryptocurrencies, but You Don’t Know How? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5362037.0)

I also believe the main quality of a wallet shouldn't be how many coins it supports; if I were trading, I'd leave the coins I trade on a trusted exchange (with all the risks that go along with that, never forget) so I can make quicker moves when the market changes and stuff like that. That's why you buy those coins; not for holding them for years. You don't want to sit around with a device whose screen suddenly glitches out, doesn't turn on, or have to install an 'app'; then send the coin to the exchange, hope it's not blacklisted (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401468.0) and then try to get that trade in real quick.
For long-term it has been shown time and time again that Bitcoin is the best bet compared to other cryptocurrencies; and if you're looking at Bitcoin-only, there are great, reproducible open-source devices for that. The amounts you want to store in Bitcoin should also be able to justify paying more than £100 for such a device.

Your budget for the device also shows me that you're probably dealing with capital that should be fine (not financial advice) to keep on an exchange - as I said, also for more efficient / fast trading ability.

You are thinking of Ledger's first model, the Nano S. OP wants to purchase a Nano S Plus, the device that came out just a few months ago. It has received a memory upgrade that allows it to hold up to 100 different apps at the same time. In theory at least. Even if it's just half of it, that will still be enough for OPs current needs.

OP owns £3.000 worth of crypto. Personally, this wouldn't be an amount I would be comfortable storing in an exchange account. Not to mention that these £3.000 can easily become £5k or £6k during the next bull run. But people have different needs. OP doesn't strike me as a day trader for him to require access to an asset within a minute or two.

I think that this is a bad choice of words. Nano S is the smallest, the oldest they're still selling, but, afaik, not their first.


You said that the coins can double or more on next bull run... I would say that the bitcoin may double or more, while some of the altcoins will probably turn to dust.
So (as a second thought) I would do different. I would get the Bitcoins to the hardware wallet (or, even easier, I would generate a paper wallet offline) and I would keep the altcoins on exchange(s).
Altcoins are much more volatile than Bitcoin and one may want to sell them. Fast. Bitcoin, on the other hand, tends to do great on long term.

My bad. I could have expressed myself better. I was trying to say that the Nano S is the oldest Ledger model that is still available on the market. It's certainly not the first one they ever produced, but it did sound like I said exactly that. I think the Ledger HW 1 and Ledger Nano were their oldest models. There was also the Ledger Blue. All these products have been discontinued in the meantime.

I guess it depends on the altcoin. Some of them probably will, either after this bear market or the next one. But generally, Bitcoin tends to pull their price upwards when it begins its run. Even if they are altcoins, I would wait for better times to sell them. The overall state of the market right now isn't the best one.

Now that I have began investing in Bitcoin and plan to do so for many years, is it best if I just find a hardware wallet to store my Bitcoin on and leave the altcoins on the exchanges then?

What is the most convenient but still safe way of storing my Bitcoin?

After 3 pages of tips and suggestions that you received, you ask practically the same question as when you opened this thread? You don't seem to realize that the only real and correct way to keep your coins is in a way that only you are in possession of your private keys. It's up to you to decide which hardware wallet to buy or whether to make a cold wallet - because no matter how you set things up, the worst decision is to keep your coins on crypto exchanges, there's not too much wisdom.

The answer is still going to be a hardware wallet, short of setting up your own cold storage device (which sounds like something you are probably not ready for yet).

If it were me, I would sell all those shitcoins for bitcoin and then just put the bitcoin on any good hardware wallet.

But, if those are the coins you want to hold, then just get a Ledger Nano of some description since it will support the majority of those coins. They are all as secure as each other. If you need Bluetooth for on the go transacting when paired to your phone, get the X. If you don't need that, get the S or S Plus. The only real difference between the S and S Plus is the screen size and how many apps you can have installed at once, but it takes literally 20 seconds to uninstall one coin's app and install a different coin's app (with no effect whatsoever on your coins themself), so up to you whether that small convenience is worth the extra price.

Once you've got your device, head to https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/categories/4404376139409, click on the device you bought, and follow the set up guide.

Keeping bitcoin on hardware wallet is a good, safe, and convenient choice. Millions of people around the world use this method and don't complain, because so far there have been no incidents with the theft of crypto from hardware wallets. If a new and better way of storing crypto comes along, you can always change your storage. Therefore, it seems to me that the question is not whether to use the hardware wallet, but which hardware wallet to use.

Regarding altcoins. It seems to me that it would be better to get rid of most of them, completely, because it will finally depreciate in the current bear market, but whether they will rise in price later is already in question.

Was all set on going for a ledger then a few negative comments takes me back to square one again.

I don't mind paying good money but don't want a wallet that is going to cause headaches & problems.

I have been a Ledger user for years and I have no complaints about the security of the device itself, but due to the hacking of the Ledger user database and the publication of hundreds of thousands of data including full name, address and phone numbers, I no longer consider them a company to trust. Does that mean I trust the Trezor more? Of course, not because they also have their security vulnerabilities in the devices themselves, but also because part of their database (allegedly only e-mails) has been hacked.

If you are looking for something perfect then I have to disappoint you that such a thing does not exist - but if you want the greatest possible security then a properly made cold wallet really has no alternative. All you need is an additional device (computer) that will not have any contact with the Internet and the fact that you have to get used to such a setup.

Here is an example of such a setup using Electrum -> Coldstorage (https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/coldstorage.html)

Special note : it is recommended to verify Electrum files before installation. -> How to Safely Download and Verify Electrum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5240594.0)

Another point to consider: self-custody can be accomplished without buying a hardware device.
The coins will already be much safer and 'actually yours' if you withdraw them to a trusted, secure software wallet whose seed you properly backed up.

If you want to hold relatively small amounts of some altcoin / shitcoin semi-long term (basically trading; so do consider reading: Here Is What Can Happen If You Want to Trade Cryptocurrencies, but You Don’t Know How (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5362037.0)), you can do so on your phone or computer, as long as you follow basic security practice.

Most people who believe in 'crypto diversification' usually put at least 50% in Bitcoin anyway; so I'd probably setup cold storage and / or get a decent quality hardware wallet for Bitcoin, leave the most volatile shit on the exchange to sell it as soon as it 'moons' and withdraw everything in between to a software wallet.
I wouldn't want to make a compromise in the quality, privacy and security of the device that stores my BTC (usually majority of people's crypto investment), to be able to also store $50 of a few shitcoins on it, too. Does it make sense?

Yes makes sense I am with you.

Now that Bitcoin is in this price range I want to focus on it and accumulate more and less on altcoins.

I will keep researching but yes now I realize the main thing for me is focusing on Bitcoin and storing it safely by getting it off Coinbase.

Of course, you should consider it as soon as possible because there's no better reason you want to safely hold your bitcoin if they're still on an exchange. What's more, if you have decided to use a Ledger wallet, then go for it. Some users will be ready to help you based on their experience so far.

Most people including myself also like asset diversification, which is great. But I will not own more than 50% of the total capital I have. 50% for bitcoin and another 50% might be good for some potential altcoin but only between 1-3 altcoin.

Sounds like a plan! Honestly; if you really wish, you could also get a multi-coin wallet like Ledger or (in my opinion better quality and more modern; plus easier to use through the ability for microSD backups) BitBox02. And then later get a Bitcoin-only, more premium device & transfer the funds.

In a way; separating coins on 2 devices is also a type of 'diversification' (of risk; e.g. risk of theft or loss). I have high hopes (and expectations) for Foundation Passport v2, but can't recommend it yet, since I haven't had it in my hands so far.

I don't want to get too much into this topic here; but just a little recommendation to the 'diversification fans': do some more research on what diversification means. Basically you don't want all your eggs in one basket; sure - however if you 'diversify' by investing in different cryptocurrencies, which are proven to depend a lot on what Bitcoin's doing, that's not a great idea. You could invest in Bitcoin, a stock, a metal, you know, very 'diverse' things that are as probable as possible not to be affected simultaneously (up or down).

There are other less significant differences like the connector type. The Nano S Plus is equipped with a USB Type-C, while the old Nano S uses USB Type Micro-B. Another more important element could be the chip depending on if there is a vulnerability with the older models or one will be discovered in the future.

Nano S uses ST31H320 as secure element and STM32F042.
Nano S Plus uses the ST33K1M5.

https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-nano-s
https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-nano-s-plus 

No matter what you go for, there will always be negative comments and bad feedback about it. Not just for your choice of hardware wallets. Weigh up your options and consider how those comments affect you personally.

For example:
Has Ledger caused privacy leaks for its users? YES.
Has Trezor caused privacy leeks for its users? YES
Have Ledger or Trezor users lost their crypto because of bad design of their wallets? NO
Can the wallets be hacked remotely? NO (for now).
Can seeds, PINs, or private keys be extracted by having physical access to the device? Possibly, YES. If the person knows that they are doing.
Can you and me do it by watching a YouTube video? NO.
Which one is more vulnerable to physical manipulation between the two? Trezor because they don't have a secure element. Some would say Ledger is equally vulnerable due to its close-source nature and I would agree there is a danger in not knowing what is going on.

If you want to see which hardware wallets members of Bitcointalk own, you can take a look at Show off your hardware wallet (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5375482.0). Ledger dominates the table followed by Trezor.

Think I am going to just go with the Nano S plus - looks like a solid and popular pick and will hold the majority of my crypto.

I just feel I need to get my crypto off of these exchanges, I don't mind leaving one or two on the exchanges as long as the majority are secure on a cold wallet. 

Is it safe to buy on Amazon or for the sake of £10 more just buy through the actual site?

Lots of people will give the advice to only buy directly from the Ledger website, but as long as you are buying from the official Ledger store on Amazon and not some third party reseller you should be equally as safe. The easiest way to do this is to follow the link for your country from their official website as listed near the bottom of this page: https://www.ledger.com/reseller

There is a theoretical risk that there will be more people in the supply chain who will have their hands on the hardware device before it reaches you. Instead of going Ledger -> carrier -> you, it will go Ledger -> carrier -> Amazon -> carrier -> you. However, there are steps to follow when you first get your device (regardless of where you buy it from) to confirm its authenticity and that it hasn't been tampered with: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404389367057-Is-my-Ledger-device-genuine

Ironically, despite most people saying you should only order directly from Ledger, the people who did order from Amazon in the past were protected against the data breach which was discussed previously in this thread, since the data breach only affected the database of Ledger's own web shop, with all their Amazon customers' data being stored with Amazon instead.

Lol, that's a loaded question!  Save £10, and risk a supply chain attack, or spend £10 and risk Ledger leaking your personal info?  Tough call.

I think you probably made the right choice of going with the Ledger seeing as how you're into alt-coins.  I personally have been a bitcoin maximalist since about 6 months into my foray into the crypto sphere, so when a friend or family ask me to recommend a hardware wallet, I point them to the Trezor.  The Trezor model T has more alt compatibility, but is far too expensive these days, in my opinion.  The Treazor One is arguably the most practical hardware wallet on the market today.

I was about to bring this up.. Amazon may be better for privacy, but you could get a counterfeit wallet with pregenerated seed.

As Pmalek correctly stated, the risks of having someone attempt a physical attack on your hardware wallet are relatively slim. That's one of the benefits of getting them in the first place, instead of using a software wallet; attacks for the most part need physical access.
But on the other hand, for me that means that a data leak of whatever you give them during the ordering process might actually be the higher risk.

For example, Trezor used mailchimp so they had no control over what was going on and apparently mailchimp employees were 'social engineered' by attackers to get their hands on that data [1]. I do believe that this information wasn't public before the incident, but it would be commendable if such companies would put more effort in data privacy and also their own company's 'sovereignty' if they try to be a Bitcoin business.

[1] https://blog.trezor.io/details-of-the-mailchimp-data-breach-a06872caa1fd

That is until the next Amazon breach happens that might involve hardware wallet customers, crypto companies, or other businesses of interest. Amazon has had their share of inglorious leaks as well. Check this out (https://firewalltimes.com/amazon-data-breach-timeline/), for example. Centralized data storage providers are always going to be a threat. Inside jobs are also frequent because some employee somewhere saw a chance to cash in on customer data or he is simple dissatisfied with his job/life/the world, etc. and wants to see everything burn. Or his lack of knowledge and judgement can trick him into infecting his work computers with malware or getting social engineered as n0nce mentioned.     

Amazon is a good option as one can choose the delivery to the pick-up point. Recently I have created the fresh Amazon account which is not associated with my old one and  got the latest ledger nano s+ at Amazon pick-up point chosen by me.

Do you not still need to register a name and address alongside a payment method matched to that name and address to open an Amazon account though? If that's the case, then even if you deliver to a pick up point, there will still be a record of you buying a hardware wallet against your real name and address.

The safest way to order a hardware wallet is to use their own web shop, and have it posted to a PO box or other drop off location under a pseudonym, therefore completely breaking the link between your real name and address and your purchase. Very few people do this, though.

The safest option (if available to you) would be to buy a hardware wallet directly for cash at a physical store. I suggest you check your local stores that sell electronic/IT equipment, because they usually sell such devices (at least that is the case in my country). Another option is to rent a PO box at your local post office or use one of the virtual PO box services so that Ledger does not get your personal information - for complete privacy pay with Bitcoin that is not associated with your name (coin mix).

Bloody hell so much to worry about isn't there  ;D

So it is not recommended to buy from the official ledger site sending directly to my home address?

I have registered my second account using the fictive name and address (in EU), and  payed by using amazon gift card bought for btc on bitrefill .

All you read in this thread are just tips on how you can increase your privacy, although realistically most people have no problem making a purchase in the classic way and don't bother with things like this. In the end, the decision is up to you - it will not be the end of the world if you order HW to your home address and pay with a card.

Yes, that's right. All advice on this forum is advisory in nature. How exactly to use this information is strictly up to you. It's your life and your privacy - do what you want.

In the case of a Ledger, you can order a device from their website to your home address, but keep in mind that with a high degree of probability, any Internet user will ever be able to get all this information about you. This has happened before with this HW manufacturer. Whether they will be able to keep confidential information about you - no one knows.

I would only do this if the store in question is an official reseller. Since OP seems to be located in the UK, there are no official resellers available to him other than Amazon, according to https://www.ledger.com/reseller.

Interesting. I was under the impression that if you create a new Amazon account and fund it solely by gift cards, and did not also have a valid credit card linked to it matching the name and address on the account, then the account would be locked. But you say this is not the case? Maybe it's different between the US and the EU.

I see that there are two official resellers for the UK, although they are really not physical but online stores. In any case, the OP has more than enough options to choose from when buying HW, it's just a matter of how much he wants (and if he wants at all) to protect his privacy. Given that it's summer vacation time, maybe the OP is traveling to a country that has physical stores where you can buy HW - and I see that there are several in countries like Spain, France or Croatia.

Right, have been looking more at Legder Nano S plus and it accepts 7 of the 11 crypto I hold so its worth getting.

I am a total newbie and not great with tech so just wondering if I was to order this, where do I start?

I have the majority of my crypto on Coinbase with a couple on Crypto.com - is it pretty straight forward to get these off of these exchanges and onto the Nano S Plus?

It's usually very easy to do, yes; but it's also easy to look up:


It's funny to me that this support page doesn't come up when looking for 'Coinbase Bitcoin withdrawals', they hide it under the term 'sending cryptocurrency'; 'withdraw' is a term they only use when speaking about cash. It confirms yet again that they try to keep people's funds on the platform and keeping people in the 'fiat mindset' in general; where 'withdrawing to a crypto wallet' is not even considered or endorsed, since the main objective to buy Bitcoin is just maximizing fiat holdings.. ::)

Yes.

Once you have your device, simply follow the set up guide I linked you to before: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4416927988625-Set-up-your-Ledger-Nano-S-Plus. This will involve booting the device up, setting a PIN code, writing down your seed phrase back up, and then connecting it with Ledger Live to update to the latest firmware and install the software for the coins you are interested in.

Once you've done all that, then you can open the relevant coin - bitcoin, for example - and generate a receiving address.* Head over to Coinbase, look for the option to withdraw or send bitcoin to an address, and copy in your receiving address from your Ledger (double check everything, especially that you have copy/pasted the address accurately!) This will send your bitcoin from the exchange across to your hardware wallet.

The very first time you do this, lots of people like to send a small "test" transaction of a few bucks worth of bitcoin to make sure they have done everything properly before sending across their full balance.

---

*At this point, some people like to reset their device to factory settings, and then recover from their seed phrase back up they've just created, and ensure they generate the exact same address. This allows you to be doubly sure that you correctly copied the seed phrase without making any mistakes.

Thanks. I am going to order it later today as I have come across quite a few detailed videos on youtube showing how to set up, seems pretty straightfoward.

And yes I will do a small test transaction first to make sure I have done everything correctly.

Be very careful following YouTube tutorials. I'm sure many of them will be just fine, but there will certainly be a few malicious ones thrown in which encourage you to enter your seed phrase on a fake website or something similar. It is fairly trivial for scammers to generate thousands of fake views and fake comments on their videos to make them look legit.

Make sure that everything you do is part of the guide I linked above, make sure you only download software form the official Ledger website, don't enter your seed phrase anywhere except on the hardware device itself, and don't follow any links in YouTube video descriptions.

Thanks again.

Yes I can imagine there being a few scammers out there, I will be really careful.

Nano S Plus ordered  ;D

Is there anything I can do until it arrives or do I just wait?

My cryptos are the following, have read each one will require different appa? If anyone can give me an idea which apps I will need for each one?

Bitcoin
Quant
Algorand
Polygon
Cronos
Decentraland
Enjin
Shiba Inu

You could download and install Ledger Live, so it is read to go once your hardware wallet arrives: https://www.ledger.com/ledger-live

If it is a token, then you'll need the app of the coin it is based on (so ERC20 tokens will use the Ethereum app). Coins like Bitcoin will have their own app.

You can type each one in here, and then click on "More details": https://www.ledger.com/supported-crypto-assets

ThanksI will have a look, this is all new to me but will take it one step at a time.

---

---

I suggest to do even more extensive testing with free Testnet3 Bitcoins (tBTC), e.g. from https://testnet.coinfaucet.eu! You'd have to enable Testnet in Ledger Live, but then you could play around as much as you like and it won't cost you anything but time and some learning.
With free tBTC only in your Ledger wallet you could also verify a desaster recovery procedure. I assume very few people actually try it out because they fear to screw something up with their real coins and tokens. With tBTC you don't need to be afraid. (I'm not saying that you should deliberately destroy Testnet coins.)

That's what I have done when I used my first hardware wallet (no, it's not a Ledger, as I don't want to use a Ledger device for various reasons).

When you're done with playing with tBTC (and no other coins or token of value in your Ledger wallet), just reset the device (nice to have tested this, too) and let it create a new seed with new mnemonic seed words. Write those mnemonic seed words carefully down on paper with date of creation and purpose and maybe also derivation path (if you're familiar with that) and you're good to go. Do not store your mnemonic seed words unencrypted in digital form on an online computer! Very bad idea!!

It's worth noting that Ledger has also prepared a "bunch of playlists (https://www.youtube.com/c/Ledger/playlists)" on their Youtube channel:

e.g.

• Ledger Live (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XIgK8_-Lg&list=PL6VM0N695IhlhZ2L4ikE9qYJYnpqfQbC5)
• Ledger Tutorials (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUshO1sxRo&list=PL6VM0N695IhmrOU2pe7ta1wAiKVsEW9zi)

You might want to visit their "360 library (https://www.ledger.com/academy/library) ^{[it has various filters to narrow down the results]}".

I only want to use the ledger when at home I dont need the bluetooth which i have heard isnt the best so doesnt make sense for me to pay double the price for the nano x.

Best is subjective.

Every single individual will have an opinion on what is "the best".

But it's time to approach this from a more technical perspective.

https://i.imgur.com/91Hxvzg.jpg

WalletScrutiny (https://walletscrutiny.com) approaches this problem through this methodology:

I understand the need to promote your project/website, but if you're already doing that, then at least make your post suitable for everyone to read by posting images in the appropriate size - people with limited/slow internet and small screens also use this forum.

---

As for the retirement attack, it's not something that's impossible - but that's why we don't keep all our eggs in one basket, regardless of its quality. In other words, it's stupid to trust only one wallet, whether it's a desktop or hardware wallet, you should always expect the unexpected and think about how to stay one step ahead of danger.

All those coins are natively supported by Ledger. That means you won't need any third-party wallets that have to be connected to your Ledger device. When you get your Nano S Plus and you set it up, just start typing the name of the assets in the Device Manager and install the appropriate crypto apps. After that, it's just a matter of creating an account, generating and checking if you have the correct address, and transferring your coins from Coinbase to your Ledger.

The only difference is Shiba Inu, which is an ERC-20 token that should be kept in an Ethereum account. Unless SHIB has migrated to a mainnet and become a coin in the meantime.

Hi all,

My nano s plus arrived yesterday so will be setting it up after work later today.

This may be an obvious question but again I am new to all this so want to make sure I do everything correctly..

Do i need to download a different app for each crypto I hold?

Each coin will need its own app (or app of the parent blockchain in the case of tokens) to be installed on the Nano itself. In terms of the software on your computer, then the vast majority of coins will be compatible with Ledger Live. There are a few exceptions (such as Monero) which are not compatible with Ledger Live and you will instead have to download a difference piece of software, and there are also alternatives for many coins (such as Electrum for Bitcoin) if you want to access more advanced features which are not present in Ledger Live.

If you type each coin in to this website (https://www.ledger.com/supported-crypto-assets), it will tell you which software you can use on your computer under the heading "Supported wallets".

When you connect up your Nano and sync it with Ledger Live, Leger Live will take care of installing all the necessary apps on the device itself. You'll just need to pick and choose which coins you want.

Hi,

So am just setting up my nano S plus and currently adding accounts.

For example I have 12 Quant, and when trying to add account it says ‘Quant is an ERC20 token. You can receive tokens directly on an Ethererum account.’

I then click ‘receive’ but then it comes up with the following ..

‘Please only send ETH or Ethererum tokens to Ethereum accounts. Sending other crypto assets may result in the permanent loss of funds.’


So I am not sure , at first it sounds like I can send Quant to Ethereum account but then the second statement makes it sound like only ETH can be sent to ethereum account.

Is Quant classed as an Ethereum token? If so, should be fine sending to Ethereum account?


Being new to this I just want to make sure I do things right and these 12 Quant I have will be worth thousands in the future so don’t want to mess anything up!

When you search for Quant on "this page (https://www.ledger.com/supported-crypto-assets/token)" and hover over the "More details" text, the link at the bottom left corner shows "erc20"!
^{- The following link might come in handy: MANAGE ERC20 TOKENS (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404389645329-Manage-ERC20-tokens?docs=true)}

Here you go (https://cryptoseq.medium.com/quant-networks-overledger-part-seven-the-qnt-token-d6b945ea15f1#:~:text=QNT%20is%20an%20ERC20%20token,swap%20to%20any%20other%20blockchain.)!

I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Yes and yes. "ERC20" tokens are Ethereum tokens. It stands for Ethereum Request for Comment 20, named after the type of proposal it was along with the Ethereum Improvement Proposal (EIP) number is was assigned, 20. If you are interested, you can see the original document which created the ERC20 standard on the Ethereum Github here: https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/blob/master/EIPS/eip-20.md

If you are unsure, then send across some small fraction of one Quant (whatever is possible when considering any withdrawal fees), make sure it arrives and shows up correctly on Ledger Live, and then send across the rest.

I have just sent my first crypto over to my ledger from Coinbase which was Algorand.

The fee was only 0.002 Algo which is nothing so pleasantly surprised by that! It took less than 30 seconds for the crypto to show on ledger live so am impressed with that.

Is it only tokens involved with Ethereum that come with high fees?

So when sending over a small amount when I am unsure , if it shows in ledger live then all is ok?

If it doesn’t work or is not valid then it just wouldnt show?

It depends. In your case, since you are withdrawing coins from a centralized exchange, then the fee will be whatever the exchange charges as opposed to whatever the appropriate fee for the network is at the time. Each exchange should have a page somewhere on their site which details their withdrawal fees.

Yes and yes. If you try to send to a completely invalid address, then your transaction won't go through. If you send to a valid address but on the wrong chain (for example sending an Ethereum token to some other chain or vice versa), then the transaction could go through but it will not show up on Ledger Live and it would be unlikely that you would be able to recover your coins. If the Quant shows up in your Ethereum account on Ledger Live, then it has worked.

I have so far transferred my Polygon, Algorand & Quant over however have just test my LCX but it has been ‘pending’ on Coinbase for nearly half an hour now.

First time this has happened with the others going through straight away, do some others take longer then others or is there a problem? I have double checked the address and it is correct so not sure what is causing this delay.

Ignore this is has all gone through, only 1% fee too which is not bad at all  ;D


Another question, I have 8,000 CRO I want to transfer over to my ledger but when searching the account on ledger live it says ‘Crypto.org’  - is this the right one? I can’t see any others.

This is to do with Coinbase, and has nothing to do with you. Their system will either be working through a backlog, performing some additional security checks before processing your withdrawal, or maybe waiting for a number of other users to request a withdrawal as well so it can batch them all together to save on fees. If this happens you usually just have to be patient and it will resolve. Occasionally the exchange will send you an email saying something is wrong and telling you what to do next.

I'm have no idea because I've never used this coin, but a quick search online did find this: https://medium.com/cronos-chain/cro-is-now-cronos-bf103c257bd

Thanks - I will send over a small amount of CRO later to test it but it sounds like it is the correct one.

I have half my crypto on my ledger now and will send over the rest tonight, it does give you and instant feel of relief knowing they are secure.

Technically speaking, all the cryptocurrencies you have are on the blockchain, your device only stores the private keys that give you control to send them from the current address to another address. Your digital assets are only as safe as you are in what you do, and only as safe as your backup. Therefore, don't feel too safe, always be alert because we never know from which corner some new danger is lurking.

I have 9,000 Gala - does anyone know if there is a way of transferring these onto my Ledger from Coinbase?

I have little to no idea about altcoins, and as such neither know how to transfer them, nor do I know if 9,000 of this currency is worth a lot; but in general, this is a technical question for which the amount is totally irrelevant. I'd advise you to refrain from revealing how much of what currency (or anything else) you own, to improve your own OPSEC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security), as long as the amount isn't absolutely crucial for the question you're asking.

This topic could also be of interest to you:
Why beginners should pay attention to their privacy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5394338)

Despite having limited knowledge in regards to altcoins in general, I don't think the process is different from "sending any erc20 token from Coinbase (https://youtu.be/iOmqK4JiWPs?t=223)" to other wallets ^{[just copy your address from LL]}! In case you're worried that it's not showing up on the list of supported coins, "here's a confirmation (https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/uqkdf1/comment/i8trcxp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)" from one of their staff and if you follow the instructions from "this page (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4402543134993-Where-is-my-Ethereum-ERC20-token-deposit-?support=true)", you'll be able to see it on "another list (https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-desktop/blob/v2.29.0/cryptoassets.md)".

Gala will be fine as it is an ERC20 token.

I have just gone to transfer my Gala over to the ledger and it is showing a fee of 53 gala which is currently worth £2 so I suppose it is not bad.

It got me thinking though, is the fee when you transfer onto ledger from an exchange always the same for a specific crypto or does the fee change depending on something?

Yes and No... Some of the exchanges have fixed withdrawal fees ^{[they tend to overcharge]} while others have dynamic fees ^{[e.g. based on network fees and other stuff]} in place, so it heavily depends on the platform as opposed to a certain type of HW/SW wallet ^{[except for internal transfers on their respective platforms]}.

Centralized exchanges mostly have fixed fees, and like SFR10 mentioned, they charge too much and fill their pockets with that money. Only a part of what you pay is actually used for the mining fees. Most of it is their profit. I remember that many CEXs used to charge 0.0005 BTC when withdrawing Bitcoin. Many probably still do it even today. That's almost $12 right now, but in reality even if you paid $1 in BTC, you would still overpay depending on the input/output count and types of addresses used.   

...

Just speaking for myself, I like the Trezor Model T and the BitBox02 (BTC only version).  I only buy BTC, no Alts.

For me the Trezor is slightly easier to use.  The BitBox has coin control.  Both allow secondary passwords, both seem reasonably sturdy.  Both use apps on a PC.  Both seem to be excellent hardware wallets.


I have also used the Ledger Model S (soon after it came out), but I liked it less than the Trezor and Bitbox.

I think Ledger Nano S is the best, then Trezor T-Next Gen and SecuX V20 take the joint second position. I’m using Ledger Nano S along with Capital Wallet (a hot wallet). The combination of a cold and hot wallet is always better.

You might want to explain why you think the Nano S is better than the other two!
^{- I do know for a fact that it's not, but I'd like to see your argument...}

I have a strong feeling you're just shilling for that wallet ^{[despite its creation date, it seems fairly new to me]} and it appears to be a custodial wallet ^{[I had no luck in reading all of the answers on their FAQ page (due to bad coding), but I've seen enough red flags not to recommend that wallet (e.g. here's a simple one (https://archive.ph/IErlg#selection-403.101-403.162))]}!

I think it's about time for Trezor Suite to finally add coin control to their hardware wallets, this is one of the features on their roadmap for years, and lack of this is a big disadvantage.
Except Bitbox I don't know other hardware wallets that have coin control support, but you can always use them in combination with Electrum wallet to enable this feature.
Ledger has coin control with crappy ledger live app but it is inferior compared to Electrum wallet.

check out the latest air gap hardware wallet from iCoin Technology.  www.icointechnology.com.  Also sold by Verizon.  Can buy it using your VZ account or just by online with a credit card.

I don't think this is the right thread to introduce your product; you could do your own [ANN] thread in the Hardware Wallet section, though.
The first question that springs to mind is if it's open source, because it doesn't seem so to me.

Since there are existing, trusted open-source alternatives, with and without airgap, in similar price range (also lower) I am not sure you will find a lot of customers here, at least not for $199.

Oh then it must be ''good'' if it's sold by Verizon  :D
Knowing Verizon famous bad practice of locking smartphones, I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same thing with this cheap bad iCoin hardware wallet.
I would never use this wallet for anything, and I don't think it's secure enough for storing anything other than coupon codes or maybe pizza recipes.

Oh, come on now, Wiz Khalifa is using it!  It could be really nice, but it looks like a pretty basic wallet with a touch screen and a camera.  Oh, and it has a flashlight, in case you need to recover your seed in a cave, presumably.

I love this tidbit from the FAQs:


And this from their manual:


WTF, over?  Do these people have any idea how blockchain works?  Anyway, there's no mention of it being open source or even available for peer review, so I asked their support team a few questions:

Oh good. Another wallet using a non-standard derivation path, but it won't tell you what it is. I look forward to future posts on this forum of people with seed phrases generated by this wallet who are recovering empty wallets and cannot find their coins. And no option to pay using bitcoin. Nothing says "pioneer of ... the digital economy" quite like not actually accepting any digital currencies. ::)

Or not even knowing how they are spelt. ::)

This screams of Verizon trying to make some easy money. At $200 it's way overpriced as well.

From UI and form factor, as well as the overall credibility of the project, I guess that it is probably a repurposed, very old Android smartphone (like Samsung Galaxy S3) with a stripped-down OS and a single application (wallet).
It wouldn't be the first Android-based hardware wallet, but at least other projects aren't based on off-the-shelf, outdated hardware (just a guess, but an educated one in my opinion..).

Yes I was dreaming all my life to have a hardware wallet with powerful flashlight so I can go in cave whenever I want to see my balance and make transactions.
Seriously someone should make a list of worst hardware wallets ever made and this iCoin would have deserved place in this list.
Do I need to buy ten iCoin wlalets like Wiz Khalifa?

I am sure they are top gun experts for cryptocurrencies and even prince of Nigeria is using their technology to store his wealth.

This is how verizon people are spelling stuff, it's a special encryption technology based on blockchain.
It's like iPhones for hardware wallets, so they named it iCoin.

I bet opening this devices you will find antennas and all other stuff you would find in older smartphones.
But maybe developers are hiding written private keys there  :D

Oh no please don't make me buy one just to open it and destroy the whole product through an honest review and pictures of the internals..
It could be a lot of fun, though. Maybe I could even throw in a 0-day (just reusing an n-day of the device that was used as base for the wallet, if my suspicion is right that it's an old smartphone) just to spice the review up a bit?

But it's just too damn expensive for a little fun post like that, I'm sorry. ;)

At a glance, it looks like they spend most of their funds into advertising rather than development of the hardware wallet itself. Anyway, few FAQ bothers me.


It's probably just the battery almost run out of energy before shipped, but also could imply the battery have poor quality and drained quickly.


There's no correlation between question and answer. They could just say "iCoin hardware wallet is designed to be vendor verizon lock-in".

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I agree, although few people might make a donation to see such post.

Don't worry I won't force anyone to waste money on overpriced iCoin hardware wallet, but you could do some airgap experiments with it if you insist.
I don't know what operating system this device is using but judging by this video of two ''verizon experts'' speaking, I think it's probably using Android OS.
To be fair, I like the idea of using thermal printer, so this could be only thing I would consider using, but I don't like it's using bluetooth for communicating with device.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KlPtZqHcHk

Keep in mind that thermal prints can degrade extremely quickly. For example (duh) by being exposed to heat, such as laminating the print or just storing it in a hot place.
You can try e.g. leaving a thermal printed receipt in your wallet for a few weeks and the writing may become illegible. It depends a lot on the paper and other factors; generally not my preferred seed storage.

I don't think so. Reliable data isn't always available on the coins supported for hardware wallets (especially in the case of tokens), so it is probably a safer bet to get the Nano X and not having to worry about some coins you use being unsupported.

It looks like they are contradicting themselves because in another section of the FAQ they claim that:

If they use non-standard derivation paths for coins, it is highly unlikely users will find their funds after recovering into another wallet. Clearly, they are being dishonest here claiming that they "follow" standards. IMHO, following standards includes not only using standard key derivation schemes but also standard derivation paths, gap limits, coin types, etc.

In the next section, they keep telling us a lie that you somehow still can recover your wallet if you lose your iCoin:

If you lose your hardware wallet, you won't be able to regain access to your funds (even if a copy of the seed phrase is still in your possession). The reason is exactly the same: you will have no idea what the right derivation path is.

A non-standard derivation path which is kept hidden by the device or software is a big red flag and a no-go, stay away from such shit.

If you lost your iCoin and still have the mnemonic seed words and you can still by another new iCoin, then it might work to recover your wallet. A win for the company as another shitty device is sold. I guess the marketing department had lots of "nice ideas" in the development process of such crap.

This user's post history shows otherwise. I only took a quick look at his posts and he never mentioned this particular wallet before or after this post. I didn't find any other signs of shilling some other services or products either.

Those questions might be above their paygrade I am afraid. You might get a response like: of course it's open. You enter PIN, wallet is OPEN. No PIN - wallet is CLOSED. 100%. Turn on flashlight for easier PIN entry.

I agree with Cricktor, it's probably an intentional move to force people to use only the iCoin.  It wouldn't be the first time a company tried to force their customers to rely on only their product.

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 :D

Lol, maybe so.  It is telling that they have yet to respond to my questions.  If I ever to get a response I'll post it here.

Yes I know, but I like it for portability and it can be used for printing fast QR codes to receive payments.  
I would never print seed words or private keys with this and expect it to survive for years without fading, but you can see this verizon guys are doing exactly that on video I posted :)

They say it's BIP HD compatible, whatever that means.
Oh but I am sure they will release iCoin version 2 device that will cost even more, and you will be forced to buy it for more security.
I found user manual on their website but it doesn't say anything about seed words backup or recovery, and it looks unfinished:
https://www.icointechnology.com/user-manual

Those you can generate and print from an airgapped hardware wallet's accompanying / paired watch-only software wallet though.
For instance, I can open my Bitcoin Core that I set up with Foundation Passport, generate a new receiving address and print it (thermal printer or otherwise).

As much as I love them, hardware wallets are glorified signing devices. A ton of functionality can be / is done from the wallet software.

You have a point, but looks can be deceiving... The user in question mentioned using the Nano S with Capital wallet and when I checked, I couldn't find a single way to connect it to "any kind" of hardware wallet!
^{- On top of that, he/she was the first user to post about that particular wallet on this forum.}

Everything is possible. For all we know, that might have been his first shill of the wallet and more will come in the future.
The wallet is actually more of an exchange than an app to store your coins. I searched their FAQ and the blog and you are right, there is no mention of Ledger or hardware wallets at all.

Maybe we just misunderstood what Retiicle was trying to say.
Maybe all he wanted to say was that he uses Ledger to store his coins and he gets them from this Capital wallet. "Along" doesn't necessarily mean that the two services are connected and used together. Who knows.

Hello all, I have just tried to send a couple Quant I have in my ledger back onto Coinbase as I am currently 55% up and wanted to test sending crypto back to Coinbase for the first time from my ledger and take some profits with the plan to buy back lower when we next have a drop in the market.

When trying to do so it says ‘The parent account balance is insufficient for network fees’.

I understand Quant is an Ethererum token but I dont own any Ethererum, do I have to have some Eth in my wallet to pay the fees to send my Quant back to Coinbase?

Yeah, that's basically what the error message says. For any token that is created on someone's blockchain, you need a tiny amount of the parent blockchain's crypto (usually less than $1) to make any transaction with the crypto.

Thanks. What is the easiest way of getting this small fraction of ETH I need then? Can i convert some of my Quant into Eth on ledger live or is it easier to just buy a small amount of ETH on Coinbase and transfer that to my ledger which I can store just to use to pay for fees with?

You can do either. If you buy on Coinbase and transfer across, just be aware of whatever withdrawal fees that Coinbase may charge which might eat a good chunk of your coins, especially if you are just buying a small volume. If you swap via Ledger Live, then be aware of which third party (such as Changelly) that is processing your trade and what else they might ask from you in terms of KYC or other personal information.

Ledger Live also might not support the pair you are interested in. You can check which coins can be swapped to/from here: https://www.ledger.com/supported-crypto-assets

Thanks - This is why I am debating if its worth trying to trade right now at 55% profit or if I should just hold longer. After a few fees here and there it doesn’t feel like it is worth it right now.

Will hold a while longer and if we continue going up I will think about it again if reach 70% profit or so.

Either way, probably better to do the ground work now so you ready to go when you do decide to send your coins/tokens back to Coinbase. Don't want to be ready to sell and then find that the Ethereum network is so clogged up that gas fees are a hundred bucks or more (which Ethereum seems to be in the habit of doing).

I have no idea what Coinbase's usually Ethereum withdrawal fees are, or they vary according to network conditions, but the gas fees at the moment seem to be low so it might be worth getting some Ethereum on to your hardware wallet now so it is ready when you need it.

I don't think it's actually possible.

An example: You have TRC20-USDT (USDT on Tron) and want to move it to an exchange. That requires energy which you buy with Tron.
Sure, you can sell some TRC20-USDT for TRX, but that is also a transaction and requires energy / Tron again.

So you will need to buy some of the base currency (using fiat, BTC, Ether, ...) to be able to move the coin built on top of it since that's how you pay the transaction fees, right?

If it was me who for whatever reason had these funds and nothing else, I'd probably buy Bitcoin through Robosats (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5405549.0), then swap using non-custodial trustless instant exchange Boltz (https://boltz.exchange/) from Lightning-BTC to Ethereum.
It's the cheapest, safest and most convenient way I know to get Ethers.

I agree with Leo that you should make sure you have those Ethers now, such that you can move your Quant coins whenever you need, as quickly as possible.

Oh right, sure. I was assuming he would have some coin he would be able to swap for ETH, most likely BTC, since he did say earlier in this thread that he was holding several coins. But yeah, he can't swap a coin he can't actually move.

Never used that service before, but I see they only support BTC and ETH. Any similar service that would swap Lightning BTC to XMR and back again?

@JamesDaniel90
Pay attention to what is the minimum amount you have to trade on Coinbase + the withdrawal fees you will be charged. I doubt Coinbase will allow you to just trade a few dollars worth of crypto. If you have no intention to hodl ether, you are probably only looking to buy a little bit just enough to be able to make that altcoin transaction to take your profits. Instead of using Coinbase, follow n0nce's advice or just use an instant exchange. I would normally not recommend them, but for small amounts they are an option. Just make sure you have a different asset you could swap and that the exchange has the correct trading pair.

Check out BestChange for example. Also, make sure that you send the ETH to the same address where your Quant is stored and not a new one.   

It largely depends on which percentage the withdrawal and transaction fees correspond to this 55%. If you're enjoying a million dollars profit, fees are very little compared.

FixedFloat (https://fixedfloat.com/) allowed you to do the LN-BTC <--> XMR swap, but it currently only receives XMR. Perhaps it's out of liquidity. Next up, there's coinplaza (https://www.coinplaza.it/), but I've never used it.

None that I know of, unfortunately.

FixedFloat and Coinplaza are both instant exchangers with Lightning support, but they're not trustless and wholly smart-contract-based like Boltz. You basically give them full custody of your funds and then hope they are honest and give you the other currency back.

Boltz.exchange is trustless? Whenever I used them I had to send the money first without contracts.

Yes, to be more exact it uses submarine swaps, which as far as I know work cross-chain with Ethereum, too - that's why it's not trivial to add more currencies.

The contract is on the blockchain in the form of a submarine swap transaction.

Their FAQ (https://www.notion.so/Frequently-Asked-Questions-585328ae43944e2eba351050790d5eec) roughly explain how to refund a failed swap, but I've yet to check out exactly how that 'refund file' works or what it contains.
They also link to this blog post (https://medium.com/boltzhq/submarine-swaps-c509ce0fb1db) about submarine swaps, for more details. It touches on the refund process, but doesn't go into detail.

Hi all,

Still using my ledger S plus and I like how easy it is to use would definitely recommend if anyone is thinking about buying one.

Quick question, the 24 word phrase is only needed if you forget your passcode?

If I was to lose my ledger, I can just buy a new one but I must have my 24 words to access it again?

I am just thinking where I should leave my 24 word phrase just incase something was to happen to my ledger.

By passcode do you mean the 4-8 digit PIN you use to unlock your Ledger? If you forget your PIN then yes, you will need to use your seed phrase to recover access to your wallets. You will also need your seed phrase if anything happens to your Ledger device, such as it is lost, stolen, damaged, or simply wears out after years of use. But as long as your Ledger is working fine and you know your PIN, then you do not need to use your seed phrase in usual day-to-day operations.

Correct. Your PIN number is specific to the device and simply unlocks the device. It has no relationship whatsoever to your actual wallets, private keys, or coins. Those are backed up exclusively by your 24 word seed phrase, plus any additional passphrase you may or may not have set. If you lose your Ledger, you can restore your seed phrase on any wallet which supports BIP39 seed phrases, which is almost every major software or hardware wallet, although doing so on a fresh hardware wallet will be the safest route.

This is really up to you and there are many things that you can do.

Your seed backups should ideally be stored in multiple geographical locations. If something happens to location A, you still have B and C to fall back on.
Most importantly, it shouldn't be something you immediately see when you walk into a room or something a thief could find in 2 mins of searching.
You can use your home to your advantage for example. If you have a private library or a big collection of books, one backup could be stored somewhere inside of a book. You can put the backup in a box and bury it somewhere away from water. You can hide it inside home appliances or furniture. You can hide it somewhere in the construction of your home, but you would still be able to get to it easily if needed.

You can use paper or metal for your backups. Check out Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.0). Maybe that can inspire you to do the same or something similar. But never take the lazy route and go for online backups or storing the seed digitally.

Don't forget all the places where you have hidden your mnemonic words backups. I case something happens to you, your beloved ones need to get to know those places, too (and instructions how to deal with it).