Bitcoin Forum

 In September, 2021, El Salvador became the first country to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender; that, we are all aware of. Then President Nayib Bukele went further to spend a total of $106.3m, according to Bloomberg analysis, since it's adoption in 2021. This move was unwelcomed by citizens as they grumbled over the supposed waste of public funds but it sseemed like Nayib was looking at the futuristic benefits attached to this coins. Take a scenario where BTC skyrockets from it's present price of $19.608.8 to a high of $60k or $100k, they could become richer than China and the US combined if they decide to invest in their country like China did.
 With it's adoption, the government introduced the use of chivo wallets because of its efficiency and lack of credit consumption.

Granted, Chivo is a public ledger, hence the citizens can be aware of transactions and all that. But where I need your opinions is on this: can it be made public enough to scare off monopolists?

It probably could but they'd probably just start using something else instead to store their wealth.

If it's just cash then I can imagine them.finding ways to blend in more (like by continuously depositing and withdrawing smaller amounts or by not having much income paid there - wealthy people that stay wealthy tend to earn more than they spend anyway).

El Salvador currently has 1,771 BTC[1]. BTC skyrocketing to $100,000 is going to end them with only $177m (not including the buy cost). That's literally nothing in contrast to how much funds the United States and China has.

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[1] https://bitcointreasuries.net/

I can understand that El Salvador embraced Bitcoin but their way of investing was so haphazard as if they had never consulted anyone who is an expert in financial analysis or good at reading charts.

I remember that there was a chart of the purchase dates and it all seemed random without a solid economic plan as the price collapsed several times after the purchases.

Currently and historically, the price is ideal for investment, but we did not hear more investments, which reflects the economic situation in that country.

Can you really scare off monopolists? Can you scare off the whales? Can you ask someone like Elon Musk, not to invest or can you formulate a law that Bill Gates cannot hold Bitcoins? NO
That's ofcourse a disadvantage of having a system which is not governed by a central body, i do think that you do understand, other than spreading correct, informative knowledge none of us holds any power over the whole system and therefore we need to try and look at the positive outcomes that they might bring, increase in price, more trading opportunities, howsoever temporary.

Chivo is the wallet proposed but they could still use other wallets. Right? So no, it won't scare them off.
There are always other ways to keep Bitcoin and they could do that by spending just a little amount of money to buy a known wallet with better security.
They're using Bitcoin which is not their countries currency. We must not forget that fact.
So whales buying on El Salvador might do them better if the demand will increase again.

Are you really serious? El Salvador could become richer than China or US if bitcoin hits 100k? I don't really think so. In total currently it just has 700 Bitcoins which in USD translates to just 14 Million USD which is no where near to even the 50th richest man of US forget about the whole nation. So trust me no country so far is scared of the monopoly they could make because they really won't be able to make one very soon and moment there is an opportunity to make one, US and China would immediately jump into it.

They had good vision I mean the president of the Salvadorian Nation. If Bitcoin takes an upward flow then believe they will be richer or a rich nation as said. There citizens are really not really not into the usage of Bitcoin for peer to peer transactions. If you take a good look or research you will notice that most business and organizations do not make use of Bitcoin. They are only influenced by the government.

It entirely depends on the type of monopolists! A legal and tax paying monopolist wouldn't bother whether the transactions are public or not. But an illegal monopolist will be definitely worried because their data is becoming public. A tax evader will be worried. A criminal will surely be worried. A black market dealer will be worried.

So it entirely depends on the type of monopolist. If you stand at the right side of the law, you shouldn't be worried at all.

There isn't a country in the world that would buy enough BTC to become richer than the U.S/China unless you their respective currencies were to collapse entirely and Bitcoin becomes the global reserve currency. It's not a bad idea for El Salvador to put some crypto in their country's reserves, but as you mention, it's not very palatable to most of their citizens when they there's extreme poverty issues. They currently have a negative ROI so it's at tough sell for the government.

I do not think such a thing needs to be  feared. I mean think about it we are talking about something that is very rare chance to happen, why would we worry about the potential of something that is not even here or even discussed.

The "anxiety" of it, being the fact that worrying about things that are not happening, is a psychological problem that people have been dealing with for many years. Sure be ready for it, there is nothing wrong with being ready for anything, but being worried and getting ready are not the same things. I personally would believe that El Salvador and monopoly would not be in the same sentence right now, it is not there at all, not ready for it.

On June 30, El Salvador also bought another 80 bitcoins for $19k. This is considered the lowest price they can afford and this purchase is very small compared to the previous ones. Perhaps they have run out of funds to invest in bitcoin and the world economic situation is unstable they are hoarding money to deal with upcoming difficulties rather than buying bitcoin at this point.

The bear market is not expected to end anytime soon, so I hope they have a long-term holding plan and strategy in place.

This is funny and I somehow pity them with their ignorance, was not/it is not a forced currency imposed on people but as legal tender which means it can be used as a settlement of debt and exchange of goods without any problem within that jurisdiction, no business entity is or was forced to accept bitcoin, its a choice.


My concern about this Chivo wallet is that it is centralized storage which is not in line with my view of bitcoin adoption, every bitcoin in those wallets are watched and if things go south, they could be seized and even get arrested, you know the government and their shitty head especially if there is a change in the government or if another party take over democracy in El Salvador.


Same as I have said above, using of that centralised app is not a good choice of the wallet if Bukelle wanted bitcoin for everyone and not somebody(government).

There's no how El Salvador will be richer than any rich country with bitcoin investment. The best they can attain is having a stable economy which is actually what Bukele is looking at.
El Salvador would only be richer than US if they bought the 1,770 btc when two pizzas was bought with 10,000 btc, lol.

I didn't quite understand op's idea of monopolising btc is El Salvador.  Maybe I'll wait for a clearer explanation.

How could they be? I haven't imagine and thought of that they'll be more than these two superpowers even if bitcoin skyrockets to an unexpected price or even $1M, I guess?
Monopolists are everywhere, whatever they do, they'll do it with any situation that they can. Despite there's the new adoption that's happening there, they can still adjust on it.

Yeah, that is just funny.

If Salvador would buy all coins available , 19 million of them, at 20k each they would first need about 400 billion to do so, their whole GDP is 24 billion so they would need 16 years of spending every single penny for coins.

Now, if all those coins could raise to $100,000, their whole value would be 1.9 trillion, which is about 9% of US annual GDP. To be richer than China and the US combined, now taking wealth into the equation, they would need to buy every single coin and each of those coins to be worth 10 million.


No it's not!

El Salvador's current BTC accumulation doesn't make them richer than China and the US if the BTC price surges to $100k.  It might give them more funds to development but labeling them the richest country will be an overstatement.  Besides it isn't the monetary fund that makes a country the richest but the overall valuation of the country from infrastructure, developments, reserve funds etc.  So I think to be able to beat China and the US in terms of financial funds, they should put way more money into BTC.


So does this mean it is impossible for El Salvador to be richer than China nd the US?

Yeah, Bitcoin or not Bitcoin is impossible.

If they would be because of the ~1700 BTC it would be impossible since Americans hold far more BTC than that, Brian Armstrong is said to own at least 10x times, , then there are the Winklevoss twins who god knows how much they have but estimate point at 70000 bitcoins and there is Michael Saylor  who is also American, and many many others, like Tim Draper who bought 30k BTC at the USMS auction!!!
So Salvador has no chance here because Americans have more Bitcoins than they do in the first place!

But in order for El Salvador to be wealthier than the USA alone for example, they would need a GDP per capita of just lol, nearly 3 million a year, that's 22 times that of Luxemburg, and if comparing wealth, each of their citizen!!! (including 1 yo children) would need to have at least ~$19 million worth of assets.

LE:
Going further on this (why do I even do this, I don't have a clue)  :D
At $100k per Bitcoin, each Salvadorian would need to hold 190 Bitcoins but since there are only 21 million coins each can't get more than 3.5....
Impossible!

Yes, they might able to surpass some countries in speaking with riches but the question is, would they able to sustain? Its not comparable into those places who do get revenue on different industry and not only getting
it on an investment.They might have  those numbers but sooner or later this would really be talking about sustain and we know on who would really be having the edge in relation to this.Its totally recommendable on what President Bukele had been doing but we know that there are no guarantees that we would really be reaching those heights but if ever it do reach out then the fruit of his risk taking decision would be cherish out.
Its a good new for the El Salvador but of course we shouldnt be focusing on success but also mind off to see the cons on different angle.

I really doubt that they never consulted or have no crypto experts. El Salvador is a country, President Nayib Bukele won't be brave to invest in crypto if he has no experts. It is crazy if a president invests in crypto in haphazard ways. However, I agree that President Nayib Bukele is sometimes too hurry to buy Bitcoin. He actually has much time to buy at the lower rates during the bearish season. He may be too confident that BTC price really flies to $100k someday, so he doesn't really care about BTC price in the near future.

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*They probably have experts at reading charts. But BTC price moves are sometimes unpredictable, reading charts don't always be effective.

Its common for investors and finance gurus to recommend a policy of diversification.

Bitcoin is great. But it can be complimented with other crypto. El salvador could fork bitcoin to create their own CBDC. Nodes and miners could be allowed only within the borders of their own country and limited by IP address to prevent outside interference.

Mining is one aspect to bitcoin which made it popular. Finding methods to allow el salvadorans to mine and profit would be a good strategy to fuel mainstream adoption.

Chivo is not the public ledger; the Bitcoin blockchain is.

I don't know where you're coming from but, first, the data available in the public blockchain don't include personal data, so while you can see how much Bitcoin an address has, can you trace the identity of the person behind the address? I don't think so. And if somebody has lot of Bitcoin but doesn't want people to know about it, he/she could easily keep them in small amounts in different wallets.

Second, why do you have to scare off monopolists? Bitcoin isn't like an ICO where there's a minimum and maximum amount for sale.

Let's be realistic that El Salvador's possession of a few thousand bitcoins will not make it a rich country. Also, El Salvador's possession of bitcoin will not give it a magic wand that solves all its economic problems. Yes, it helps in improving the economy and solving economic problems in the long run. This is a new experience and it is natural that many The problems in this experience until things crystallize clearly and everything is put in place, but it is certain that in the long run the adoption of Bitcoin will have a great positive role in improving the economy of El Salvador.
As for anti-monopoly, it is certain that the blockchain helps in this a lot, but it will not prevent it completely because people always find ways to circumvent the laws.

Yeah!

No...or Nope.

No.

As far as it is known, the majority holder of bitcoin is the Government itself and it is known because they have made it public, not because such information is available.

This move was unwelcome by those who don't know what bitcoin is or to those who are anti to it but for the opposite, they are very glad about it. This is not a waste of funds but it was called an investment and I think governments on other countries are also doing the same thing which they also invest some portion of their funds in the hopes of growing it more but maybe not totally in bitcoin and other cryptos but only those on traditional investments like stocks, gold, real estate.

Like others, I also don't think that El Salvador can become richer than china and USA. More if this country is combined because each of them is big already and even without the help of btc, they can still become rich by depending only on their skill.

I'm sure that the president has access to councilors in regards to managing the country's finances. But you've got to understand that no one can predict what will happen to the price. You can be the biggest financial advisor in the country, you still don't have a crystal ball in your pocket. Anyways, I don't think the 1771 BTC the country owns represent a significant amount in its treasury.

Anyways El Salvador is not in a 'rosy' situation having 82.6% of GDP in debt. For every $1 of GDP they have to pay around 5 cents just to cover the interest (~5%). In comparison, the United States only pays ~1.6% of GDP in interest expenses.

Bitcoin is unpredictable, it can be said that they are unlucky to buy at higher than current prices and i also believe they have a plan for the current market situation. We are retail investors and we are aware of the volatility of bitcoin, then as president and have a financial advisory board El Salvador will definitely do better than us.

This is an ideal time to buy more bitcoins but given the world situation, I think countries will focus their resources on solving upcoming difficulties rather than investing. Like us, things are very difficult so everyone will limit their investments during this period and will focus on dealing with daily difficulties.

Since September El Salvador have started investing on bitcoin. As a result El Salvador now holds a good number of bitcoin. But there is no expected usage from the common people. As of now El Salvador investment have halved out of the market decline. Some have mentioned El Salvador haven't had any perfect plan and has bought at random occasion. The world is watching the progress and in the long term the holdings will surely support El Salvador uplift it's economy.

Ok, I need to repeat this as many times as possible it seems. BTC adoption does not / cannot / will not solve decades of underlying Economic issues. They still spent money while buying BTC, it didn't fall from the sky,  so thinking they could become richer than the US and China combined is just false and without systemic fixes to the economy of a country, the political policies, crime, and corruption issues, IMF dependencies as well a dependency on the US dollar, and then jump-starting the economy, that BTC money means jack shit and countries shouldn't latch on to it for a quick fix solution.

Yeah, while reading the OP I laughed a lot and I laughed even harder when they mentioned that it would be worth US and China combined! I think US itself spend more money on their military than what El Salvador could earn in couple of years. The amounts are in trillions man, and there is no bitcoin make you that rich just by going zoom from 19k to 100k.  :P

Thats really psychh calculations.


These days don't believe what you see and it's harder to see when its digital. Be aware of political strategies, they are insane.

Dont know on where they do get that idea about resolving economic issues and speaking about monopoly or some sort then it cant really just be possible.People should be at least realistic into things that they do have in mind which they do really believe into.They might able to reach out on becoming richer with those rich countries but it would really be just temporal.Even if they would get that title or headline at least
but sustaining themselves wont really be just too long because if we do talk about various sources and sustainability then it would really be just lasting for so long so they would really still
ending up on the same situation even though not like before at least since there would be definitely some progress after that.

The Bitcoin revolution in El Salvador is less than one year, hence it might take more years for the inhabitants to accept and use Bitcoin for transactions. Also, the country have some foundational problems that needs to be addressed before Bitcoin would become generally accepted. High rate of illiteracy, infrastructural deficit, poor internet services, etc are some the impediments. As the government gradually tackle these issues Bitcoin usage would also improve. Nayib Bukele is a brave and bold leader, even if Bitcoin fail in El Salvador which is very unlikely, alt-least he has tried to seek alternative means of driving the economy of his nation towards prosperity.

It is true that they can become very rich by investing in bitcoin but it will be on paper unless they can find someone/some country to exchange their products/services for bitcoins.

If not, to feed their people, they'll have to sell them coins which they bought earlier and it will create a sell pressure on the prices.

In the end they will need USD to make them trades.

At least to me this is quite important, how many times people complain the politicians that are leading the country are not really trying to help them at all? We may agree or not with Bukele but at least he's trying, he's trying to push El Salvador forward with a technology that he knows is going to be the future, and even if he fails at least he will be able to look at his actions and say that he tried his best for his people, which is more than what a great deal of the politicians around the world can say.

I think the OP doesn’t realize how poor El Salvador is and how rich China and USA actually are. Even if they bought 10x as many coins and Bitcoin did a 10x from here it still wouldn’t come close. The president buys very little every time he tweets.

Saylor and musk bought in the billions and the most El Salvador can buy is in the couple million or so. So won’t make much of a difference really. They just aren’t buying enough. Don’t understand most of the original post to be honest.

Brush up on your math and general macroeconomic knowledge. You don't need to do as detailed an analysis as stompix has correctly done to know that what you say is far from reality. It is a thing that with minimal knowledge is apparent at first glance.


The OP misses a lot of things, and confuses wishful thinking with reality.

To me it seems only as matter of time for the bitcoin price to recover and reach a new ATH. With higher Bitcoin prices that could make El Salvador very rich, but it is mostly the government that holds these Bitcoins and not the citizen. I am not sure if El Salvador would transfer it new wealth to the population or just keep it for themselves. Comparing it to USA or China seems a bit off right now, because El Salvador is lagging so far behind. They need a lot of investment in their own country and while the money from Bitcoins would help them, they need to transfer that wealth into some form of production. A whole country can't only run on bitcoins. As for the monopoly I don't think it will be a big deal, as long as Bitcoins are free everybody can choose his own ledger and wallet.

Bruh, have you actually gone through this topic, have you done a bit of math for the coins Salvador has?
Even if the new ATH would be 1 million, their entire stash would be worth 2.31 billion, which means $367 per person?
Exchanged in flipping burgers it comes to 24 hours of BigMac grilling at the minimum wage in US, and that's all.
Would you consider yourself rich with $367 dollars?


Seems like that minimal stuff is severely lacking around here, I'm still not getting it, is it that hard to multiply two known numbers and compare them to something else? And if you think this is bad, you should not go over topics on how Bitcoin will turn CAR into a wealthy country.  ;)

Transfers on the network cannot be tampered with, but there are no guarantees that the government will not be able to track citizens' transfers through this wallet since it is closed source. The solution may seem easy by encouraging citizens to use more trusted wallets such as Electrum, but the government took advantage of people's ignorance of the Bitcoin network system and gave a gift of $ 30 to each person who carried the wallet application, leaving no room even to choose the most appropriate method for them. I am not at all surprised that the Salvadoran government is using Bitcoin to impose the same control it has with traditional currency.

With the way they were investing it was clear that they were overconfident that the price would not fall further and hence they invested even when the price had a correction to $40k but the price went down drastically and since they are investing public fund in the volatile market, they should have done better analysis before investment when the market was correcting.

El Salvador recently purchased 80 BTCitcoin at $19,000, but they are at a loss of $51 million.