Bitcoin Forum

Not your keys not your Bitcoin, and you don't have Bitcoin if your Bitcoins are on exchange wallets.
If you read through the Bitcoin white paper you will discover that Satoshi's statement on Bitcoin exchange is by p2p and did not mention anything like centralized exchanges, this is because Satoshi Nakamoto know the importance of holding your Bitcoin in your wallet, and not on the exchange, this is so because the Bitcoin on exchange is like your money in your bank account which involves third party involvement, as you all know Bitcoin original idea is to eliminate third party involvement in our financial dealing.
So for highly secure and privacy-consciousness use only p2p to exchange Bitcoin and hold your Bitcoin in your wallets.

problem is
although we are not in the 1990's of dialup internet, and floppy disks.
although in 2009-10 there was an implied 1mb limit on blocks

this limit was not meant to remain. we are in 2022. where just 1 'download only' PS5 game is over 100gb.
the current dev leaders of core want to imply that 4mb is safe but not allow that 4x of 'weight' to be used for 4x of tx utility.
they do not want people using bitcoin for daily transfers, buys, spends.
they want people to lock funds up into multisig partner/custodians to do payments/swaps/exchanges offchain.

they pretend the reason is that hardware is not ready. or that bitcoin is broke.
real reason is they are funded by the very corporations of offchain "solutions"

dev team blockstream =https://dcg.co/portfolio/#b
liquid, LN, =https://dcg.co/portfolio/#l
coinbase https://dcg.co/portfolio/#c
kraken =https://dcg.co/portfolio/

thy care more about appeasing DCG wishes than the wishes of what bitcoin was invented for
oh heck even their 'dont store keys on pc buy a hardware wallet..
.. yep. ledger  =https://dcg.co/portfolio/#l

The number of people that offer P2P services is now becoming alarming, now even almost more than the amount of persons that hold bitcoin. OP as you encourage users here to exchange their bitcoins for cash via P2P only, it is also in line for you to advise that they be careful as to who the engage with as regards the transactions of their cryptocurrency. Engage with only trusted P2P users if possible those you know, and understand that randomly selecting an individual to transact with every time can put you in line to meet someone who possesses a dubious character.

Problem is how do you think you are going to find people to send your Bitcoins to ?
P2P exchange is only valid when people are actually in a community which has well established Bitcoin ecosystem and are also keen on communicating as well, but at the end of the day one might understand the fact that these exchanges does provide not only competitive exchange but they also offer trading into other cryptocurrencies as well which makes the whole situation much better for the majority of people. Ofcourse undoubtedly with p2p exchange you can not only keep you Bitcoins more private but you can also get better value sometimes since you won't have to pay extra fee everywhere.

The true peer to peer trading does not relate to an exchange. It is peer to peer between two traders who want to exchange their Bitcoin.

Exchanges were created and some of them provide Escrow to reduce risk to be scam in peer to peer trades. Especially if you are trading with newbies in peer to peer, risk will be higher.

Peer to peer trading by Bitcoin is safe also because of risk of reverse transactions is small and impossible. Cost to reverse blocks and reverse transactions that have more than 3 confirmations is very high. So it is not realistic to bet with attack and reverse transactions on the network.

https://www.crypto51.app/
https://howmanyconfs.com/

P2p is based on trust and one can not be secured in carrying out a p2p transaction with a newbie who has not hard adequate knowledge so to avoid that risk exchanges are there to serve as a connecting link in form of escrow and a monitor between two traders. With your stand on the p2p, it will be limited to a small community of Bitcoin users leaving in the same environment but that will hamper the scalability of Bitcoin. So exchanges are needed and they're the gateway to cryptocurrency trading.

Many things that are going on in bitcoin right now are not the original plans of Satoshi. While he was a human, he took into effect things according to how it was then and technology is an ever changing thing.
Satoshi's plan of bitcoin being a currency is fast being defeated for investment.

It is true that the present exchange p2p wasn't the proposal of Satoshi, I have been looking for a thread that explained the real version of Satoshi escrow as he proposed.

This is like telling people to keep using Nokia 3310 just because you think some apps running on Android and iPhone steals their personal data and sell it to Advert companies, As true as this sounds, people will still keep using Android and iPhones because the PROs outweighs the CONs.
If you Advice everyone to switch to P2P, how about the professional day traders?, trading on a P2P market can never be fast and liquid as trading on spot, margin/features market on exchanges, A significant change in price of Bitcoin can be experienced in the one minute or two you spend waiting for the other party to transfer funds, and this can lead to some unwarranted loss.

It is true what you said that P2P was the original vision Satoshi had in terms of Bitcoin transactions, But also do not forget that Satoshi did not expect that Bitcoin to be this successful as it is today, and i also believe that if Satoshi was still with the Community, he or they would have updated the whitepaper by now.

Nothing new. Do you think Satoshi imagined there will be an exchange like Binance? Most of the volume comes from the exchange, not from p2p. That's the reason why the Bitcoin price pumping so hard. If you ask Satoshi now, he might create something more powerful than Bitcoin. It's a matter of time. Bitcoin has created transfer money worldwide without third-party involvement. And it's happening right now. So Bitcoin working it was created for.

It's already been done. Bitcoin will remain though.

Satoshi Nakamoto made the p2p specifically for the use in the bitcoin network for exchange and nit for centralized exchanges to use or dominate it application, the annoying is that many don't know about this privilege in bitcoin to fully go decentralized, because if you think you're decentralized with the adoption of bitcoin and using a centralized exchange then your centralized already unaware and which is what many are fallen on without knowing.

Of course yeah, the true p2p comes without a third party as we see in exchanges stepping in as an escrow site but in the end, we still continue to exhibit some kind of control over the system as we get to determine price or rates using bid and ask. Bitcoin has undergone several shifts like from a 1mb block limit to a 4mb and the fact that, it now serves for investment purposes as an asset other than  just a currency for exchange. It is hoped that in time as mining continues with bitcoin picking prices and value along the curve it forms over time, adoption would bring about its true p2p nature back to it in areas with a proper network coverage.

And this is where I say stop cause it's not really like this

You're saying p2p, p2p, but you don't realize that most of the people go for p2p on a centralized website, be it Binance or LocalBitcoins or Localcrypto, and 99% of them will use bank transfers, Paypal or PAYEER or Skrill or whatever, so, in reality, is just a charade of a p2p as you're still involving two centralized solutions in this.
True p2p can only happen if you do a cash transfer with a guy you know from outside a centralized platform, otherwise, you're still relying on centralized 3rd party solutions, you're still trusting a random stranger and a bank or payment solutions with your money which defeats the whole premise

Actually what Satoshi planned was for you to earn bitcoin and spend bitcoin just like you do with traditional form of money instead of trading it (whether on a centralized exchange or a P2P exchange) so that you buy some hoping to gain profit and dump it the moment you reach your profit target.

Exchanges are not a part of Bitcoin protocol, so it's not correct to say which type of exchanges were envisioned by Satoshi. Obviously p2p exchanges are more in spirit of Bitcoin values, but people are also free to use their Bitcoins as they want, including sending them to centralized exchanges. Some centralization is always inevitable, and p2p platforms should focus on improving to compete with centralized exchanges better, instead of hoping that people will use them for purely ideological reasons.

This, as well as many others here claiming P2P trading only works with trust, is wrong.

I really recommend checking out Bisq (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5230289) and Robosats (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5405549). If you read how the technology works, you will understand both (though bisq more so) are basically completely safe against scam attempts from either side of the trade.
P2P is indeed the way to go, the way satoshi intended Bitcoin to be used* and the most secure, private and anonymous way to acquire or sell Bitcoin.

*The whitepaper talks about Bitcoin as P2P money, and doesn't mention exchanges at all. That's why I say he envisioned people using Bitcoin peer to peer. For me, that includes selling or buying it.
Also keep in mind satoshi is not a god and not everything he said or claimed must (forever) hold true. Even if we disregard 'what his vision was', it still stands that objectively, a good anonymous, no-KYC peer to peer platform like the two I recommend, is the most secure, private and anonymous way to acquire or sell Bitcoin.

If you need to buy or sell bitcoin without KYC, then use decentralized services.
For bitcoin try first   https://rango.exchange/
a complete list of decentralized services in this thread.
Do not change in large amounts, 20-50 dollars is enough for the test.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389259

True that but there will certainly be evolution with everything hence what we are witnessing within the Cryptocurrency ecosystem. Investors and traders Know this, "Not your keys Not your Coins" but we will do it anyway because it is almost impossible now for you not to go through an exchange even if it was just DEX and if there were no exchanges, DEX included, how would you know how is willing to buy what you have? and how trustworthy is that person? People just need to be careful with it regardless. CEX has proven to be a good part of the ecosystem but it is your choice to leave your Bitcoin in an exchange wallet if you wish to take that risk. 

I believe that in this message about p2p Satoshi also wanted to include the fact that compared to the traditional FIAT system, in the bitcoin world, there are no "master and slave" but all users are kind of equal. There are no bankers and final users!
No one can create "money" with one click or take advantage of it that does not have real "proofs".

Describing in the white paper a centralized system (therefore the classic centralized exchange CEX) would have been really useless and would not have expressed the full potential and true innovation of bitcoin.
Above all, it would not have been "bitcoin" but another thing.
If you need to use a centralized system to "trade" your bitcoins, you don't need this innovation, that's another thing.

Tell that to people who are being robbed from their coins from centralized exchanges because of the new EU law that you have to give information from the source of income and also they may ask to sign a message from your wallet and I think that no one would love to keep their Bitcoin in such exchanges.I agree with the original idea of Satoshi as P2P to be the best most reliable form of crypto payments,of course when these persons know each other or a third party which in this case can be the website in your signature that select trustworthy P2P operators and list them there.Bitcoin is working yes but it has also worked when exchanges didn't exist at all.

Tell that to people who their coins are lost forever in the Celsius lender saga who have claimed bankruptcy and I am sure they will agree that P2P is still the best option to exchange Bitcoin.

Asking anything about peer to peer trading on Bitcoin Discussion is a pointless exercise, for exactly this reason. You get a bunch of replies from people who have never traded peer to peer and don't actually understand what peer to peer trading is telling you that it's too slow, too risky, too expensive, or other nonsense. People who fall for the marketing gimmicks and think that Binance P2P is a "decentralized" exchange. ::)

I have traded exclusively peer to peer for years. In that time I have read almost every day about someone somewhere losing money on a centralized exchange, from their account being locked for arbitrary reasons to hacks, thefts, scams, and bankruptcy, while I have never so much as lost a single satoshi in a peer to peer trade. In that time I have read about countless data hacks and thefts from centralized exchanges, with KYC documents and selfies being leaked all over the internet and being used for fraud and other criminal activities, while I have never leaked any information because I never shared it in the first place. In that time I've read about centralized exchanges charging 50,000 sats or more for a single withdrawal, while I can complete a trade by making a 1 sat/vbyte transaction and paying ~200 sats.

If you regularly day trade, then sure, you are probably going to have to use some kind of centralized platform. But for the majority of people who don't day trade, then you can get better security and better privacy by avoiding centralized exchanges, as well as protecting the "original Satoshi strategy" as OP calls it - keeping your coins in your control, away from the control of third parties, permissionless, and censorship resistant.

That's not entirely true. I know a lot of users advocate for people to get their Bitcoin off exchanges because of the "no key issue", however that's not commonsensical for everyone. It should be for hodlers/investors, not traders. Traders constantly need their cryptos on exchanges for transactions unlike hodlers who merely hodl and don't transact.

Frankly, without exchanges I don't see how Bitcoin could've got the type of widespread it has now. Centralized exchanges may have their issues and disadvantages but we can't rule out their role and push in the spread of Bitcoin. P2P isn't that easy to get into because a scams from groups and outlets who masquerade as genuine spots. Centralized exchanges (before now) aided the spread of this industry.

Ding ding! I love p2p too but am the first to say it isn't just to be a fancy decentralised whatever trader. Besides the technicality that you actually don't remove any third party in the majority of p2p exchanges (and the risk of meeting face to face is arguably higher to personal security)... It can even be several steps of third parties in a p2p.

Plus the fact that it does take time for most styles and high volume trades to get your trust network built up.

I am sure a lot of us use p2p, from LBC to Bisq, but it is the reliability (built up) over years, the speed, the cost.

I can liquidate my btc to local fiat and send it back to myself in euro in under a minute, at great rates... dont know a single exvhange could do that for me.

As for me, there is nothing wrong with that bitcoin differs from Satoshi's original plans. Moreover, Satoshi stepped aside from the project and allowed the community to make changes if necessary. This allows bitcoin to change and develop, adapting to current opportunities and needs. At this stage, bitcoin mostly serves as an investment instrument, but who knows, maybe in the future, bitcoin will be used as a currency. I want to say that over time, as bitcoin develops, some of Satoshi's original ideas may begin to be fulfilled.

Present p2p exchanges may not have been planned by Satoshi, but it so happened that it became widespread. Whether that's good or bad, it's hard to say. I prefer to take it for granted. At this stage.

I disagree with these points.

There is a huge difference in trust between using a centralized exchange such as Coinbase or Binance, in which you must trust them completely with all of your data and all of your coins, compared to using a centralized exchange such as LocalCryptos which pairs you with another traded and requires none of your data and never has custody over your coins. And if that is still too much for you, then use Bisq. Centralized third party completely removed.

If you choose to buy or sell your bitcoin via a payment method which has a centralized third party involved, such as PayPal, then that is your choice and has nothing to do with bitcoin nor the decentralized exchange which is removing the need for a centralized third party to hold your bitcoin. And if that is still too much for you, then you can buy or sell your bitcoin with cash in person, cash in mail, cash drop offs, Monero, or some other method which completely removes the centralized third party.

It was meant to be p2p and decentralized and there are still people that uses the p2p method to trade their coins. But the problem is that people need to trust each other and it is not as convenient as using a centralized exchange for most people. You can still do p2p trading in centralized exchanges, but like you said, not your keys, not your coins. But then again, you have some sense of safety since most of the centralized p2p trading offers free escrow or some sort of protection if things go south.

Do you guys even read what people post in a thread before you?
I have nothing to add to what I said above, but here's a quote so you don't have to even dig it up yourselves.

Pardon? Was there any insinuation in my post that I (we) didn't read other posts above before quoting the one I did? My point is that since P2P involves buying and selling those who engage in it should be careful of scams. No matter what, or how anyone wants to look at it we can't rule out those who would want to outsmart others when it comes to P2P.

And this is where people do become confident despite of having no access with those wallet keys or simply being centralized.It might not be showing off the true essence of decentralization but at least it do make ease
on the transactions we are tending to do so.Also, people does have trust issues when making transactions directly specially if people are way too far to each other where it doesnt really give out assurance that it would end up on success and knowing that there are lots of scammers then you could rather lost your coins instead and this is why having platforms would somewhat really tend to close that probability
but of course it would really be in exchange of total decentralization but well i dont see anything wrong as long you do set out security measures and risk taking factor then it should be fine.

P2p with an Escrow, then the process isn't different from an exchange.  Since both parties have to trust the escrow which is the third party.  If ever the escrow f*ck up, both trading parties will lose their funds.  So I think the true P2P is a transaction without an escrow, I think this is the reason why multi-signature is created.

I don't dispute at all the trust with data and custody of funds -- what I was referencing was the third-party or intermediary in the transaction process (who can stall, hold, block or even get your transfer wrong), which is almost always negated when selling for fiat, unless you're doing physical cash exchange (which, I've actually personally never done for more than as experimental and just with hobbyists).

[Or maybe I misunderstood stompix]

Everything else has always been direct transfer of some sort. I do have a wide range of choices "locally" (country of origin rather than residence), but bank payments are pretty much instant. I do need my zero-fee instant transfers so I can send money back to myself and pay bills. My personal method uses up to 3 additional channels (but at far less cost and time than a direct exchange with) than if I just sold at a local exchange (which I still sometimes do), so one could argue I'm actually exposing myself to more intermediaries when using my choice of p2p.

Outsmarting Scamming users by creating fake P2P platforms works just as well (even better actually) with centralized exchanges. Remember all the exit scams, 'taint claims' (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401468.0) and other reasons exchanges use to steal users' funds.
Scamming another user on a legitimate P2P exchange such as Bisq, does not work due to the protocol.
https://bisq.wiki/Frequently_asked_questions#Is_Bisq_safe?

Nope. Bisq uses a 2-of-2 multi-sig escrow between buyer and seller. There is no centralized control whatsoever. LocalCryptos uses a smart contract, again without any centralized control. Neither platform can steal the coins from the escrow and no trusted third party is required.

Which is an inherent problem with the fiat banking system, not with bitcoin. Decentralized exchanges are designed to remove the third party from bitcoin transactions, which they do. They will never remove a third party from fiat transactions because that is not their goal. Thankfully, if you want to trade for fiat without a third party then you can do so easily by using cash.

Third party involvment definatelly goes against the idea that was initialy proposed by Satoshi, but on the other hand, it speeds up the process and kinda makes you feel more secure. I had good experiences with P2P, but a part of me always feels more secured going through third party. I would say it's just me being conditioned by years of the banking system.

This makes no sense (highlighted). Maybe it's your feeling, but you're definitely not more secure. Besides the fact that many people forget that privacy is an essential element of security, and centralized exchanges destroy privacy, these services are known for stealing your actual money. For example by claiming your coins 'tainted'.
[Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5401468.0)

Of course, there are numerous accounts of exit scams and other ways exchanges have stolen huge amounts of money.
Here's a list with exchange 'hacks' and heists only until 2014. There have been much more and with much higher volume in the last 8 years.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337

Most definitely, yes.

You are right Satoshi may be working on something powerful as we have seen the development and growth of Bitcoin on this contemporary financial system where Bitcoin now play an important role, Bitcoin have provided an alternative to fiat currency and also help to empower the people, even exchange is part of Bitcoin development because even p2p is part of the exchange of coins between two users. I can say exchange centralized nature makes it easy for control of users Bitcoin, because the exchange keep custody of both their Bitcoin and also data.

I agree with your statement. Given that local exchanges are still the most convenient way for Bitcoin exchange, some exchanges have been so stringent with their requirements that they tend to be very restrictive. Binance offers p2p exchanges but you run at the risk of selling your BTCs to a stranger. That is why, you must only transact your BTCs with people who have at least 96+ positive user feedback to avoid any stolen funds or problems with your transaction.

I do hope that more exchanges would be open to converting one's BTC to a designated currency conveniently.