Bitcoin Forum

After reading the 100 XRM Lealana coin post with its faded private key I got to thinking…. Are all private keys subject to this “fading / deterioration” over time? Would a private key be better off printed as a QR code or as an alpha-numeric sequence? Does it make a difference if the 🔑 is printed on water proof paper or if it’s ink jet or laser jet printed? So many variables at play that I think a truly controlled, long term study would be needed with multiple variables and a control group would be needed. Has anybody done anything like this or have experience? Any tips for making private keys?  Thanks guys looking forward to the responses

 Good question....I do both in QR code and alphanumeric on laser printed water proof paper

  Have a test going on for close to 2 years now for private keys under water and they are fine.

TESTING- Submersing paper wallets printed on water proof papers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5296179.0)

TeeGUMES' Canary thread is by far the best resource for this. Check it out: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5290065.0

Personally I have long been a proponent of vellum paper & laser printer for any and all paper wallet functions. This combination is not an ink printing process susceptible to degradation at the same rate of an inkjet on semi gloss which is what many makers used for paper source early on for some reason I cannot understand.

Vellum + laser. Vellum paper is water proof & tear resistant. I can't tear a sheet with bare hands. It also has a semi porous surface. A toner based laser printer prints by melting plastic particulate onto the print medium. This combination should make for long lasting adherence without the risk of ink fade. Directly out of the printer, I cannot even smudge or scratch the ink with a coin. I have left privkeys printed like this in a glass of water for over a week resulting in zero state change. I did not test further as I felt this was adequate for personal use.

I am not in support of printing on any gloss or semi gloss paper surfaces including waterproof variants as adhesion to a gloss surface is inherently more difficult to achieve.

Just my .02

Interesting topic.
Obviously the aim would be target the highest quality printing process on an archival
type medium, something that is proven to last. From my photography days there were
papers available with a 100 year life span.

The printing has to be capable of super fine print, a $150 printer is not going to cut
the mustard!

The water proof paper I use with my laser printer has vern submerged for around a year and still legible - I will try scraping it with a coin fresh out of the printer - never had one smudge though during application

Thanks @Ticked

In generel I see the BTC as burned. They are part of an artwork/collectible.

Resell. Don’t claim.

I've never peeled anything except one Moonbits.
Since I was in direct contact with the creator I got some insight on the quality of private key production. They are almost-anything resistant (scratch, heat, water, acid, any kind of light spectrum) and the laser print has similar properties.

I was also a little shocked to read up on the Lealana private key issue and then did some research regarding some of the other big player coins. To me, unless you are a super-niche "just for friends and as a hobby" producer, it baffles me, that it is not common practice to use better, more resistant and more durable materials for the most valuable aspect of these collectibles.

Just my 50 satoshis.


I get the idea, but see it totally different.
One aspect I love about crypto collectibles is the amazing mix of traditional collectible (maybe including some rare metals) and crypto. This creates a situation where you would always hesitate to "destroy" this rare collectible to access the funds. And thus just make it an amazing way to long-term safe some cryptocurrency.
If this feature is in danger, it loses a lot of its charm to me personally.

Engraving the private keys onto metal is the only thing that I've ever felt was really secure from this sort of issue (fading or destroyed private keys).  I've done some testing and haven't been able to do anything to engravings I've made to make them unreadable.  I'm sure it's possible, but hard to imagine happening by accident or over time.  I don't think the method used to convey the private key (QR code vs text) really matters.  It's more about what kind of damage it can sustain and still be intact.  

Those who may be unaware can get metal engraved wallets done by yours truly following this link: https://nastyfans.org/mint

has anyone tested whether xray scanners or any type of scanners can get the pk's from an engraved coin?

Where the heck is @TeeGumes when ya need him? ;D

did he test this out?

Unfortunately, I don't think so. But it would be a good thing to add! ;)

agreed! anyone work for TSA and can run a few objects thru the scanners lol

Do you do a QR code with the priv key around it wrapped in a circle?

That’s a good point. I actually may have a way to test this. I’ll work on it and get back with you

The original 1oz NastyFans Minted Seats included an aluminum insert behind an insulation layer to keep from any unforeseen reaction over time with the silver while making it difficult to use any sort of xray scanner to compromise the private key.  This ultimately was too much additional effort for me to continue doing at the price point and nobody seemed to care either way, but somewhere close to 100 of them were made this way and have homes in the collections of some of the earliest physical crypto collectors.  It is still possible for me to make them this way and they're somewhat easily identifiable by a bump under the center of the hologram (pictured below)...

https://talkimg.com/images/2024/01/11/sWruz.jpeg

PM incoming.

if you are willing...

Send me your address, I'll ship you one brass and one nickel sample coin of my latest release to test to see if you can hack the key on the coins.

Hologram will be marked "unfunded sample coin" or something.

Curious what you can come up with.

Always be carefull with test if you don't want to know the answer :o

Proven some time ago you can take off the hologram unseen. At least for some coins.

We have a trust system. If we overthink it fall apart. 

Anybody know where I can get one of these? I’m curious to see if I can take a crack at them. Have a few ideas between X-ray & thermal imaging.

Actually I would like to know the answer, which is why I made the offer to BullionBTC.

This currently only applies to my latest release of coins "RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS" as the are the only release thus far with a permanent copy of the key on the coin.

My terms/conditions that I sell these coins under to customers covers this very topic. Lealana coins are not hack proof, never claimed to be, never will claim to be.

Given I do not know if they can be hacked in this method with a permanently marked key on the coin, it would be better to know if this is the case now and publicly than to have someone doing it privately in secrecy, leading one to possibly scam others with loaded coins by selling them and then sweeping the funds after sale.


If it can be hacked with some xray machine etc, I have a solution to counteract that hacking (no it isn't with covering it with another piece of metal as Ognasty has spoke about above).

But I won't disclose my method I've come up with unless this proves to be hack-able.

But the end result for loadet coins will always be if you trust the marker or not.
You could build the best security ever made. If the maker sweep the coins og lose keys in the end you have notting.

Why does it work? Because we are on blockchain and we can validate ourself. Even 1 coin claimed we see. 

We have trust combined with validation.

Do I care if my coins can take a bomb, fire and laser beam. Not really. I hold my BTC for later use (not the much) in my wallet. And collect come coins but make sure to follow standard risk management and spread the risk.

  No...each is individual printout...so 2 pieces for the priv keys and one piece for the NFT...total of three

   I use Mycelium to generate the keys...as you can see from this pic I use the qr code and alphanumeric generated keys.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5296179.msg60398984#msg60398984

I had a long discussion with my friend, Jabid, about physical Bitcoin. He compared them to wine, or art.

Wine can "go bad" with time and bad storage (light, temperature, humidity,...). Do you buy fine wines to drink, or to keep? What do you do if a bottle is "corked" ("bouchonnée" in french)?

Works of art can be counterfeited. The provenance and history of the works are very important and experts are sometimes needed to authenticate a painting.

In the future, the provenance of OG physical bitcoin (like Casascius, Lealana, BTCC,...) might become important, and perhaps experts like minerjones or elianite might be needed. I wouldn't buy a Casascius on ebay.

That said, following teegumes' thread, I print the keys on special paper that I order from Novalith in France, and I use pigmented ink. I dipped the keys in water with rust and after several months the qr codes were still readable.

But as Smoothie says: coins are not hack proof.

My 2 sats

P.S. In the future I will probably consider doing 2 pieces for the priv key (   ;) Krogoth)...

  Haha thanks for the shout-out Frank. ;)

   For my Monero BTC Doge and LTC combo coin I had 8 priv keys PLUS an NFT wallet as well! ;D

   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389190.msg59485933#msg59485933

  

You might need to find somebody who was actively collecting physical Bitcoin collectibles in 2013 in order to get your hands on one.  I have a few in my safe deposit box, but I suspect the price I'd want would be considered outrageous.  If you wanted to make an offer via PM, I could check around with some old timers and the NastyFans Slack group to see if anyone wants to sell.  After 9 years in someone's collection though, I suspect it may be more difficult than expected to get your hands on one. 

However, if you want one without the xray blocking insert to see if you can compromise it, you can still buy them here: https://nastyfans.org/mint

I think I have one of the single seat coins. I'd be willing to ship that coin over to BullionBTC as well assuming there isn't much funds on it and that he can return it to me when finished. I believe it is not one with the aluminum covering, just the hologram.

Which serial numbers/pub keys had these, from the original 100? or if not the original first batch of 100 etc
probably easier to search for one to test with, if you have that info.

Im sure between most of the older members here we can find one to help the communinty test with?

thanks!