Bitcoin Forum

The first two sentences in the Bitcoin whitepaper read  "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double spending."

We see two problems with the state of Bitcoin today:
First and foremost, there are almost no solutions that adhere to these core principles because they are trying to capitalize on the hype by providing a centralized solution and maximize profits. Second, These centralized solutions are creating more confusion in the market causing the general public to see Bitcoin as an investment rather than a money.
For Satoshi's vision to be realized Bitcoin needs to be seen as a currency and not an investment.

Our contention is that we need more solutions that adhere to the principles outlined in the Bitcoin white paper.  We need companies that understand the principles and market products that adhere to these principles while at the same time making those companies enough money to continue marketing Bitcoin products.

We have an idea of what that might look like and are working on it. It starts with the opensource Bitcoin core and provides individuals with an interface that is so simple a 5 year old could use it.

We are looking for funding and want your input because you are the core of the Bitcoin community.

Thank you for your help.

Tom McPhail
We BTC
https://webtc.io

 

It is not the centralized solutions according to you that makes people think btc is for investment.
It is how bitcoin was designed to be volatile that makes it an investment assets.
If volatility is no longer in bitcoin, ie bitcoin behaves like a stable coin, people will start using it as a currency because it will not rise in the future, needless of keeping it.

Hello. You are trying to advertise your service, right? So please, move this topic to the right board, Project Development (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=12.0)


About your service, why is it different than btcpayserver.org?

ignoring the service advert

lets delve into the "volatility" aspect

back in 2010 when value discovery first happened

many smart people were actually calculating their computer hardware cost divided (by 4 year upgrade timeframe) to an hourly rate
and their electric per hour (about 0.02 cost per hours)

and worked out that if they were mining 1 block every 10 hours because at that time there were a few dozen people mining (5btc every hour)

so they calculated one coin was about $0.004 cost(laszlo pizza 10k coin for $40 of pizza)
which was their first value discovery rate to trade in mid 2010
this was fair value
(right now this year fair value of efficient mining is about $15k/btc)

however
then in late 2010 exchanges made their presence. where above the value (value=no one wanted to sell below min cost). people were speculating a higher premium they were willing to buy above value for the convenience of getting coin without having to mine

this is where market prices increased above value and found premiums of like $32 in 2011, way way above the underlying value

much like 2021s underlying value was ~$10k but the market speculative premium went up to $70k

the whole "investment" scheme is very much MARKET(CEX(central exchange)) driven of speculating above the underlying value

volatility of bitcoins MARKET is not due to bitcoins value. but MARKET speculation

the underlying value is smoother and moves at a more sustainable rate below the market premiums

You nailed this quite nicely.
What has been the bane of bitcoin has always been about its volatility ratio. Bitcoin is far too volatile to serve as a currency. You can't have a currency that in few minutes, its at 1BTC = $5 and the next minute, it has dropped to 1BTC = $1. It just doesn't doesn't that way for a currency.

That's why, approaches towards it at the moment still goes towards it for an investment, with individuals being advised to hold and hold some more. Keep buying and buying when one gets the chance. Maybe after the last bitcoin is mined, we just might have a different direction to it all.

funy part is.. this question i will ask you:
"and where is everyone reading this volatile price?"... ooooo right centralised middlemen exchanges

i personaly do not value my coin based on market rate. i am not checking market rates..

my view of bitcoin VALUE is by calculating the most cheapest bitcoin acquisition method on the planet(the lowest amount everyone on the planet refuses to sell below because everones cost are higher than this cheapest rate)

and so avoiding market speculation of random judgements of price premium viable to them.. i look at the most efficient mining cost.

based on bitcoin network data.. not market data

this years is $15k.. which is why there is so much support to not sell below $15k.. because of the underlying value (off market)


there are premiums EG hawaii is the most expensive place to mine. which as a TOP window market of $75k in 2021 and $90k this year

there is a reason why people wont sell below $15k. and there are reasons why SOME people would buy upto $70k last year.

but thats market speculation.. not value

if your looking at market price you are looking at middlemen services and centralised services.. you are not looking at the actual costs of bitcoin at the bitcoin network rate

It sounds like you all feel like volatility is the thing keeping Bitcoin from becoming the currency that it was designed to be.  That is a compelling argument.

Question: Would products and services being priced in Bitcoin reduce the volatility?

This is a chicken or the egg situation.  As long as it is an investment first, it will continue to be volatile.  When people start seeing it as a currency that will reduce the volatility.

Most people we talk to outside of this group still ask questions like: Is bitcoin a physical coin? How do I get one?... And if we ask what is Bitcoin, they will respond with - It is used by criminals mostly to do illegal things.  If we were to ask, how do you spend a bitcoin if you own one, well that is beyond most peoples ability to understand.

In my opinion this is where the future of bitcoin rests.

The masses are being educated on Bitcoin by the companies that stand to gain the most by either centralizing it or squashing it to prevent their power from being diminished.

Bitcoin has no centralized marketing team to educate so it will require businesses that can profit off of Bitcoin while holding it's core values in tact.

All business can benefit from accepting bitcoin as a currency because they immediately save 2.5% in bank processing fees.  This savings will transfer to cheaper prices on goods and services.

When more people understand the core concepts - Decentralized, Peer-to-Peer, Self Custody - I think then we will start to see Bitcoin become less volatile.   

As far as I know many people are afraid that they will regret giving away their bitcoin for a good, because they think the bitcoins will be worth way more later. Those people are in bitcoin to make money and not to use it, as it was planned. Unfortunately 80%+ of users think so.

Another great argument and something that needs to be discussed.

I don't think there is anything wrong with saving Bitcoin as long as we start using it to buy things as well.  You can hold onto it to store value and use it as a currency at the same time.

When we start using Bitcoin to buy goods and services then we will be making progress.

It is all about education.  What is Bitcoin anyways?

I agree that bitcoin is majorly seen as an investment rather than a currency to spend the same way we spend our fiat.
And to be honest with you all, I also see bitcoin as a investment rather than a currency, unfortunately, it seems to late to reverse, more than 95 percent of peeps, including big cooperations like tesla etc, all see bitcoin as an investment, trying now to make people see it differently would require starting a massive campaign, and only God can tell if that campaign would be successful or not.

anything and everything can be a currency. including sexual favours in exchange for a gucci purse between you and your spouse
or beer between buddies helping to fix a car engine in their front yard

however common currency is deemed "money"
the stuff you can buy common goods with

so bitcoin is currency and an investment. but the actual question is how to make bitcoin common money
..
as for the store of value and money questions

ignoring the centralised speculative market PRICE. and instead actually measure value based on actual statistics and data from the bitcoin network and real world costs will show true value which is more stable than market volatility premium.

do not confuse the market price(premium) with bitcoins store of value

if we invent new value displays based on the VALUE not a market.
then people can see the base VALUE and then buy goods and services based on the more stable and deflationary VALUE .. and not the volatile central exchange market premium

If bitcoin was purely an investment, what value does it have?  A way to store unused electricity? Sounds like some kind of futures market for electricity.

I agree with franky1 and would like to add that the value of money is an agreed upon value.  Many more things play into it other than the price it takes to create it.  Things like scarcity and supply and demand.

I believe the real value of bitcoin comes from the people who believe in it.  This grass roots movement is taking place because people see the value in a decentralized, peer-to-peer currency.  I think if we stop believing that, we may as well pack it in and accept our current system or come up with something else.

When I started learning about Bitcoin 8 years ago I thought there is no way this will ever succeed because there are two many headwinds.  The crazy thing is that this group just keeps growing.  The real growth comes from the people who understand the need for it. It is a grass roots movement of people who see the need for change.

I also believe that everyone, given the right knowledge will agree it is the right thing!

Sorry but I have to criticize your offer because you talk to me about too much centrality in bitcoin and then you offer me a paid service and honestly even if you started off on the right you proved yourself wrong a few lines later.  What makes your service different from btcpayserver?  Why should I use your service for what pro?  Bitcoin's problem at the moment lies in stability because it is seen as an asset and too many have done it and continue to speculate on it.

mendace,

I hear your concern but don't understand your logic.  A currency is a medium exchange for value.  What we want is to keep that currency from being centralized and controlled by a single group like a government or other.  I don't think you believe that a business should not be fairly compensated for a service that it provides. The important point is that Bitcoin is not coopted by any centralized organization.

Our service is much the same as BTCPay Server.  We are not monitoring transactions and all our fees are based on the service we provide which is to make accepting Bitcoin easier.  Really the only difference between us and a business who has its own node is that they are paying us to host it for them and answer any questions they have.

Now to the extent that our service does provide a single node that others use to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain I agree with you.

This is the reason we are introducing a new product that will not include a shared node.  Each person or business will have their own full Bitcoin Core node.  This is the only way to keep Bitcoin truly decentralized.  The amazing thing is that Satoshi knew this when he wrote the white paper. This is why it is important to keep the block size as it is so this is possible.

Finally, I agree that speculation is the reason for Bitcoin's instability and the solution is for it to become a currency.  If bitcoin is not a currency I don't know what value it has.

In order for Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies to be used as a currency, it is necessary to ensure reliability and stability, to carry out regulatory and legalization studies, to prevent the price from fluctuating, to prevent theft, to take other security measures and to expand their use. With the fulfillment of these conditions, bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies will be able to be used as real currency. What I write may be the general opinion of many people. Doing the mentioned things can be in the central system. But there is something forgotten. Bitcoin is decentralized. The Bitcoin network is not managed by any central authority or organization. The management and control of the Bitcoin network is shared by all users connected to the network and is carried out without a central authority. This feature means that Bitcoin has a stronger security feature than other currencies. Therefore, if we accept Bitcoin as a currency, it means changing the central philosophy.

Its market value solely depends on market demand and that simply makes its price volatile. In my opinion it contradicts the concept of being a currency which often and should have a stable market value. Thus, it is no longer surprising why people prefer to use it as an asset than to use it on daily transactions; profit purposes.Possible way is thru regulation from governments. If there will be something to mediate transactions, things might stabilize BUT this would also oppose the idea of this technology to be decentralized, so I guess it is just a complicated scenario for this industry. At the moment, more countries are adopting usage of this technology little by little. And once majority of countries do the same thing, it is still hard to guess what could happen on its market price as well as its function whether it would be a profitable investment or more of a typical digital currency.

The fact that people's mindset is this. ^{[storing value]}
They forget the purpose of bitcoin and why it is created according to the whitepaper. They store value hoping that it is a good investment aiming their goal of profit.

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To OP, this is an advert and I think you should make an announcement thread for this if you are a part of a team.
In the ^{[terms of use]} --I don't like the number 3, it seems sooner or later it will make loopholes to scam people, but that is my own opinion.

I also see your point, unless people view bitcoin as a currency and stop looking at bitcoin as an investment there will be no stability in the price of bitcoin.

But how do you stop people from continuing to speculate, when people read the history of Bitcoin and know that 10K BTC was sold for 2 pizzas and then see how the price of Bitcoin rose to 70K, they will never sell their Bitcoin because they are completely convinced that Bitcoin will continue to rise.

This is one aspect, and the other aspect that prevents the use of Bitcoin as a currency is the difficulty of using it in simple daily transactions. At the present time, you cannot pay for a cup of coffee with Bitcoin because you will probably have to wait for hours to confirm the transaction on the network.

Exactly. So you better leave nature decide for whether bitcoin can work in the future as currency. Thanks for setting up this business, wherein you try your best to encourage merchants follow these principles (and take a buck along the way), but unfortunately you're a drop in the ocean. If merchants, collectively, don't realize it themselves that bitcoin is in favor of them, nobody can.

People can't stop seeing it as investment when they're neutral against their fiat currency. Everything is measured in fiat-- and very few people have a problem with that. Bitcoin will emerge as needed currency by the entire world, only if the former collapses-- and even in that scenario, I still have my doubts it will, because "bad money drives out good".

   With 12 years of bitcoin staying in this industry, can't it still be considered money? Almost countless companies and small merchants have accepted number one as their mode of payment, but is it still not considered a currency?

Of all the cryptocurrencies, in 1 decade and 2 years Bitcoin was the only recognized top crypto performance that showed more popularity as a basic good investment that can give investors a good return on their capital.

If you are looking for funding, why and for what? you must have a good plan for this dude.

Bitcoin needs three things in order to overtake all other currencies:.
1. Privacy must compete with money.
2. Scalability: It must have the ability to handle at least 1000 transactions per second.
3. Price stability. When bitcoin stops being so speculative and simply becomes a commodity. It might happen in the next 5 or 10 years.

That's what happened in fact, but it's not a problem if Bitcoin is used as an alternative investment because Bitcoin still needs more widespread adoption throughout the world so the government doesn't have the option to not legalize Bitcoin as a legal transaction tool.


In my opinion, behind the volatility of bitcoin, actually, it can still be used as a transaction tool with a decimal count, but if the initial price of goods is 0.01 BTC, then if fluctuations in BTC occur in the market, it will be difficult to adjust the price, meaning (goods) must be set at a certain value. something else stable like gold or something else so Bitcoin can be used.

Why are we afraid that it is not used as a currency as the moment? It will be used as a currency plus a store of value in the future, there is no doubt about it as the paper money era is going to collapse soon and we will see bitcoin take over.

Currently, people prefer to invest in bitcoin and not use it in transactions because they are not allowed to do that. There is a fear of being caught and suspected of money laundering if they got caught by the government and law-making authorities. The governments are mostly anti-bitcoin and therefore people invest privately in bitcoin and do not tell anyone about their wealth in digital currency.

That depends. Will that price be a fixed BTC amount for a longer period of time or will the price change in real-time in comparison to fiat?

Here is the problem with BTC being a currency. Let's say you earn $2000 a month but you are paid in BTC. For simplicity, lets say that is 0.12 BTC.
It's great and you are happy when the purchasing power of your coins go up short-term and you can buy more for those coins. You are less happy when you notice that your purchasing power is 10% less in just 24/48 hours. And with Bitcoin, that can happen in both directions. That wouldn't be a problem if all goods and services were represented in a fixed BTC amount. You wouldn't care. But they aren't. I don't see them becoming priced in BTC in the foreseeable future. If your financial situation is such that those -10% are a huge burden to you or your family, who in his right mind would want to do that and be hungry for the last 5 days of the month until the next paycheck arrives?

If everyone prices everything in BTC and only thought in BTC terms with no reference to fiat values, such an economy would work. It's not going to work if the stuff I normally buy become significantly more expensive over night while the salary I earned lost the same amount in purchasing power. 

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franky1 talks about efficient mining being $15k at the moment. Taking that into consideration, the development of technology won't and isn't working in Bitcoin's favor. Why? Because more efficient miners will be developed in the future. They will have a better hash rate but require less electricity. Unless electricity and ASIC prices go up, miners will profit selling their coins cheaper. So, that fair value could drop to $12k, $10k, maybe $5k eventually.   

It's true what you said that most governments are anti-bitcoin because most countries today are still a bit skeptical of Bitcoin technology although some countries are open to it and some countries have even made it legal tender as currency the bitcoin.

And then most of this time bitcoin is temporarily recognized as a good long-term investment in the future because it is also one that is aware of the fact that it can provide a good profit in the future as well.

   - Agreed, this volatility also the reason why other government don't have the trust on this thing, but a big help to everyone who are deeply know about Bitcoin. Actually there are a lot of advatanges of having a bitcoin and also usefull in so many ways aside from safe, fast transaction, but could give us a security savings in the future as well.

But Bitcoin is not like as stablecoin functioning, this is the good thing about this one.

How then would the volatility of bitcoin be calculated if all goods and services were fixed in a BTC amount? Wouldn't it be the regulation we'll are scared of happening? Because having a fixed bitcoin price for commodities, means having a fixed price for bitcoin too, as it's no longer pegged to the dollar. We'll have to evaluate products in a very difficult way if the volatility of bitcoin continues in such a situation, whereby products and services will have to amend prices now and then as to the volatile nature of bitcoin. Let's say buying a product for 0.12BTC today and tomorrow the price for the same product hits 0.13BTC a sign the price went down. It'll be a tough market for merchants; experiencing rapid price changes and difficulty in knowing that the market price went down. Unless they'll be a radar for all products pegged to bitcoin that'll change now and then regarding market condition, it'll be so difficult to attain such a height of having only bitcoin without fiat, which is why I think they'll be no room for bitcoin without being pegged to fiat for easy tracking of its volatility. Unless they'll be no bear or bull in the bitcoin market, then that'll work yet it's similar to being regulated to a specific price.

Volatility is in practice the main hindrance regarding bitcoin mass adoption as currency.

I'm trying to tackle on that problem with this proposal:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5390178.0

My first approach to implement it is to develop it on Taro, and thankfully I did got some attention on their community. Anyone is welcome to collaborate :)

Yes it is considered money, to move big amount of balance with a very low Fee per transaction the bitcoin is perfect.

There are several factors would need to be in place like:

1. Increased security
2. Improved scalability and stability
3. Stronger user education
4. Greater regulatory clarity
5. Widespread acceptance

All in all, it wil take a favorable regulation to make Bitcoin a widely accepted currency
and increased adoption.

As far as I see "on the street", from direct experience in my routinely effort of evangelizing about bitcoin, volatility just can not be taken out of the equation. 99% of people simply can not afford it, as much as they may understand and like bitcoin, they just can't. Volatility must be addressed in order to achieve mass adoption, or it will not happen.