Bitcoin Forum

Every year Bitcoin adoption is always improving especially the price, market cap, trading volume, exchange and other things. Bitcoin is still grey area in majority of countries, now Bitcoin is already legal as a commodities, even though some countries still ban Bitcoin. But there's a big improvement between government and Bitcoin, it's where El Salvador and Central African Republic officially accept Bitcoin as a currency.

El Salvador started to give $30 for every citizens by creating an account and complete KYC verification in Chivo wallet. (https://www.chivowallet.com/) AFAIK Nayib Bukele doesn't force their citizens to use Chivo wallet, on the other hands I don't see any activity from Central African Republic to create their own wallet or exchange. Many of Bitcoin enthusiasts are don't like with Chivo wallet due to closed source, custodial and ask KYC verification. It's a way for the El Salvador's government to have a control over their citizens funds, make sure they're not done money laundering or any illegal things, taxing their profit, etc.

After all any government will try to tightening their laws which will reduce privacy of every citizen. Although it's not happen yet, but I've thinking the day when Bitcoin is accepted as legal tender in most of countries, a lot centralized exchanges building in each country just like stock exchange or securities, and it's already normal to hear someone own a Bitcoin.

Imagine the future of centralized exchange would be:

• They will have a reserved funds and offer insurance funds maximum of (let's say $250,000 for each person). I know Binance have SAFU, but Binance isn't fully regulated, this one is different
• The company will have an auditor and they're transparent to release their financial report for every year.
• They can reverse your transaction, in case you've send Bitcoin to wrong address, network, hacked, etc.

But, you need to give all of your information and you're need to agree if the centralized exchange will ask you more verification including a street selfie (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5410006.0) or anything else. If you not accept it, they've a right to confiscate or frozen your coins.

However you still have a way to trade Bitcoin anonymously by using decentralized exchange/P2P with mixer, no KYC verification, enjoy 100% privacy, holding your coins on hardware wallet/cold storage. But it would be tricky if you want to cash out your coins, because you only have 2 ways:

• P2P with someone you trusted
• Using gift card

But, if you've make a mistake and your banks are successfully detect your funds came from suspicious activity, they will ask you for multiple questions and you need to make them satisfy or convince them. I don't think all privacy oriented people will able to escape from this, there's still a chance you will show your identity.


So what's your choice? are you okay to give your KYC and trust to centralized exchange where they will offer insurance, protect from mistakenly transaction, transparent and you have a right to report to the court when the exchange done wrong. Or you will still become your own bank and privacy oriented, even it will make you harder to enjoy 100% anonymity from future no privacy world? :)

<shrug>
Why can't it be both?

I can use Coinbase / Gemini and a host of others where I don't care if what I do is known about or anything else and I can use F2F or other forms of transactions where if I want to be a bit more private I can be.

Wait, I do that now.

If I am selling to pay bills / cover expenses then I can't just make money 'appear' [in theory I can but that is how you get tax audits and such] because if I put money into a fiat account and send to the car loan people there will be a trail.

Going out to dinner with a friend and I send him BTC to cover my 1/2 would be no different then handing him some cash out of my wallet.

I posted about it a while ago, that once you have any kind of anonymity lost it becomes harder and harder if not impossible to get it back.

At this point it's not something I worry about. AND as more places start to take BTC, if we want to use it in a commercial environment you will become less and less anonymous anyway. i.e. there is a liquor store in NYC that takes crypto but since it's an age controlled thing they scan your drivers license to have proof of age. I'm am obviously WELL over the drinking age but when I bought there still got my drivers license scanned. If I used BTC instead of my AMEX would I be anonymous?

If you are being legit, paying taxes and everything else there is no way to be anonymous.

-Dave

This is the present scenario in cryptocurrency exchanges and not the future. Centralized exchanges already can request any additional information and freeze your funds at their discretion and also keep certain amount of reserve funds in case of losses.

I would rather be my own bank, cause that's the purpose of an alternate currency. It gives me control over my assets and I can transact without authorization from a 3rd party.
Centralized exchanges also has lots of cons attached to it and you don't have protection from mistaken transactions or transparency. They also own your coins as you do not have the private keys.

• My data is valuable and is highly prone to being abused,
• I do not want my data circulating on the dark web or being resold to other platforms,
• I would want my Bitcoin transactions to be pseudo anonymous to prevent being tracked.

I like both but I'm a bit picky on trust. At some point I still need centralized exchanges.
To be honest I don't mind doing KYC, just don't trust much of any service that stores my identity. Data breaches have received a lot of special attention lately, as some people try to achieve as much privacy as they can everywhere.

You are describing a bank. Don't forget that they can also seize your coins and censor you at any time. Many exchanges do this already.

Or via any good DEX or P2P exchange. Or the best way - just spend it.

There isn't, because I don't use any platform or service which ever requests KYC.

All the things you have listed are to protect you from the exchange itself. I only need insurance if the exchange are sloppy with their security. I only need to report to the courts if the exchange tried to scam me. All this is completely unnecessary if you keep your own coins in your own wallet.

Being unable to achieve 100% anonymity does not mean you should therefore accept zero privacy.

Because I have nothing I want to share. If you aren't doing anything super secret, then I'm sure you'll have no problem sharing your real name, address, phone number, bank statements, all your bitcoin addresses, and the passwords to your email and social media accounts, just so we can all take a good look through your life and share anything interesting we find. After all, you aren't doing anything super secret, so you don't need privacy, right? ::)

Bitcoin transactions are irreversible. Centralized exchanges can't change the protocol.


I'd never agree to that. You're waving your rights and opening yourself to abuse from the exchange.
We don't like your selfie, it's too dark, the resolution is too low, wee need to see the name of the street behind you...

How did the courts help people who lost money in Cyprus bailouts? This gives people a false sense of security, that's all.

It is hard to remain anonymous when you want to exchange your BTC to fiat at some point. Even the P2P will require a bank transfer which in the trial they'll see BTC transactions on the platform. The government of Indonesia is already up to developing a crypto exchange, they'd be able to link your Binance wallet to the Indonesian exchange.  

But I guess when BTC is adopted widely and people are using it even in the public market, we can already trade face-to-face and buy products using wallet apps.

That's a very wrong way to look at it. Privacy is a basic human right. You just can't say "do you have something to hide? what are you afraid of?" The reason could be anything. There shouldn't be a reason anyway but let's say he just don't want his friends to see his online activities and it is nobody's business.

It seems to me you are perfectly OK with Schwab's 2030 agenda.

https://i.imgur.com/OiRIKqU.jpg

You are both basically saying the same thing.

I have a Binance account that does KYC if we want to trade/withdraw there so I did this and I trust a secure centralized exchange that offers insurance, protects against transaction errors transparently as well as even local exchanges they have to require KYC with their rules for obey.

I would be my own bank to keep my bitcoins in a Cold Wallet and this should be completely within my control but I would not enjoy 100% anonymity as I would still need a centralized exchange to trade my bitcoins to fiat to withdraw them anyway.

Actually I want to do P2P with I trust but it's difficult now that most of them have trusted exchanges to do it compared to P2P.

"Privacy is a right, self-disclosure is a choice."
You should get your rights first, then make your choice. ;)

You use bitcoin (on-chain), you take your right to some of that privacy, and of course without bureaucratic restrictions. Then it's up to you to choose to remain private or reveal yourself through the CEXes.

Yes, as long as fiat remains the main currency of the world, we will never be completely anonymous, we need to exchange bitcoins for fiat to use.
I think that using bitcoin can only help us to minimize the disclosure of our privacy, but it cannot help us be completely anonymous to the outside world. 

One more thing that makes me wonder is that we want bitcoin to be widely accepted and used as a means of payment, and also have privacy, I don't think this is going to happen. Once we use bitcoin to pay our daily bills, how can we continue to remain anonymous?

Decentralized with cryptocurrency right now is not happen in my country after government investigating due taxes, right now holding Bitcoin and altcoin assets in my local exchange market there are not any privacy about how much your assets holding. Just waiting with revenue officer coming to your house and filled form for taxes paying.

Due all exchange have to submit with KYC procedure I don't sure about privacy and several decentralized exchange more priority with the government regulation then how important keep hidden or privacy with the user or costumer. Right now Kucoin still the best exchange because still not required with KYC and keep privacy about how much Bitcoin or altcoin assets we have.

Then switch to a different exchange if you don't like to be bothered by these exchanges that are asking for KYC they're just following some protocol in order to stay in the market. There are DEX out there that you can use that won't ask KYC for you but expect that there's a huge difference of convenience compared to when you use a CEX.

The government are pushing these regulation to every merchant that offer a trade of crypto to fiat.
You have a choice to stay private on your own and the government/exchanges can't do anything about it but once you decide to use/trade fiat with your crypto then expect that there's always a KYC if you trade it on an exchange.

I think CEX is a requirement for exchanging your tokens no matter how much you advocate privacy and decentralisation if it comes to exchanging your coins to some other tokens or some other Cryptocurrency, CEX is obviously the best, cheapest and safest option as well to do it. I know it comes at the cost of KYC but I think I am ready to do that as long as this ensures exchange also is regulated. Especially after the case of FTX, exchange has to be squeaky clean in every aspect.

I would like to take advantage of both but I don't have a choice but to choose one in every situation.  I think I already did the first option of submitting a KYC to exchange to fully acquire to use all the features of centralized exchanges.  I have no choice but to do it because I am not comfortable with P2P.  I am ok with decentralized exchanges but since I am also invested in altcoins,  I prefer the convenience of centralized exchanges to the anonymity of decentralized exchange platforms.

But obviously after all the trades and sells and buys, I always withdraw my funds out of centralized exchange and keep them on my wallet.

I believe privacy is only a dream, we have been exposed the moment we were registered during our birth.

Those people are crazy.

I don't know if any of you guys saw some of the panels at the WEF, but they're all about "we know what's good for you" and "this or that is dangerous for us. Us meaning the supporters and investors in the WEF, not us as the people of the world. They don't care what we think, they're only interested in their own agenda but are happy to hide that agenda behind all the eco babble.

Their perfect world is you and me not having any assets under our control and being happy, eating the food they give us, watching the tv channels they want us to watch, working in their factories.

Schwab said it himself, he's in the process of penetrating cabinets. ::)

Everyone has their reason for using Bitcoin. Some people don't give a damn about their privacy because they are using bitcoin for other purposes. Some people use it for international trade because of unfavorable government policy, others use it to invade sanctions and some enjoy it because of its low transaction fee and reliable network. These assertions you made above would attract people that don't care about their privacy. This set of persons' greatest need is protection from fraud and the right to hold these centralized platforms accountable for any loss. So any government or CEX that offer them insurance and security has won their hearts to use KYC-powered exchanges without considering the effect.

But some bitcoiners will never trade privacy for anything. To them, all the idealistic benefits of CEX you mentioned are Greek gifts. When anonymity and privacy are important to you, then you will always choose to own your bank regardless of the perceived consequences.

Anonymity and privacy are always a struggle. I cannot have the fullness of them. There are things in which I could stay private or even anonymous. There are things in which I don't have a choice but to reveal my identity and some other personal details which I otherwise would have preferred to keep private. But, again, there's always that struggle to be as private and anonymous as possible. I am my own bank, but at the same time I also have an account in a private bank.

I wouldn't be comfortable doing it even though the centralized exchanges becomes the most trusted things in the world (which is impossible by the way). All what you stated will be passed into law by some law markers and they can also cancel or modify them in the future while you won't have a say/voice on them.
I personally think there can't be any solution better than been incharge of your own security. Haven't we trusted centralized system for centuries now and yet the results has always been the same. They haven't been competent in safeguarding our privacy and nothing can change about that.
Infact the centralized exchanges haven't successfully protected themselves so how then can they protect sensitive information that are been entrusted.into their hands.

The both worlds of regulated crypto exchanges and crypto anonymity have their own pros and cons.
I choose to use the both in order to maximize the pros and minimize the cons. Unfortunately we can't live in a financial world where KYC verification isn't required. Unfortunately, the crypto industry has to be regulated in order to achieve wider global adoption. Bitcoin shouldn't be used by criminals and money launderers. I know that KYC is far away from being perfect, but there's nothing better than KYC, when it comes to fighting financial crimes. The people, who want maximum anonymity and privacy have something to hide. If you have something to hide, sooner or later somebody is going to find your secret.

I may never understand why people use El Salvador as an example. El Salvador is a corrupt country with one of the highest crime rates in Latin America and in the world. I believe no one inside the country was giving a F the legality of bitcoin in El Salvador. Can this country protect its citizens? No. Can government do anything against local gangs? No. This is an unregulated country in every possible way where laws don't really exist.

How will they be able to reverse transaction? Once it's gone, it's gone forever. If it's inside the exchange(s) network, then they will be but not everyone sends bitcoin to exchange addresses.

I genuinely believe that actual future will be radically different from the one that you imagined. What if government pushes every ecommerce website to ask for KYC documents to their customers? Right now, you can register on Amazon and buy whatever you want without submitting your KYC documents but what if it changes? What if computer ownership becomes as strictly controlled car ownership?
What if every recent computer and smartphone hardware is backdoored?
I mean, we can't predict the future and 21th century is so unpredictable in any aspect, we can't really shape a future in a certain way and discuss it like it's going to happen. Don't get wrong with me, I hope you get it.

KuCoin is a centralized exchange which can request KYC from you at any time and seize your coins if you don't provide it. Just because you are using a non-KYC account with them at present does not mean you are either safe or private.

It baffles me that after a number of months in which millions of users have lost billions of dollars worth of crypto to various CEXs scamming, going bankrupt, shutting down, etc., people still try to claim that CEXs are safe or somehow better than trading peer to peer. Sending your coins to a CEX is one of the riskiest things you can do with your bitcoin.

What absolute nonsense. Can I put cameras all around your house? Can I have your email passwords? Why do you even wear clothes when out in public? What are you trying to hide!? ::) ::) ::)

Maybe CEX is unsafe or not the best choice, but FTX crash doesn't mean Binance or coinbase will crash. FTX does not represent all centralized exchanges, the collapse of FTX should only be blamed on it, not the whole of CEX. Bitcoin is part of the crypto industry, a shitcoin scam, but you cannot say bitcoin is a scam or crypto is a scam.

I know Bisq is the truly one of good DEX, but since it's an exchange, I think when you want to sold your coins to fiat, the origin source of the money came from Bisq, no? if it's P2P exchange, the origin source would be the one who send you the money. If the banks and CEX know you're using DEX, will it raise a question for them?

You make a good point, I think every person in this world ever expose their identity in internet, but it just depends on each person if he's care with his privacy or not, either he will stop to share anything in social media and delete his whole information or he will don't give a shit and continue to share anything to everyone. But majority of people are in middle, they're okay to give information to online sites e.g. banks, exchange, casino, shitcoins project or something related with financial, but they're not want to give their information to public or random stranger.

I think this is because abuse of personal information isn't a frequent case.


Correct, I forgot to explain. I think it's somewhat like PayPal where you can only send and receive Bitcoin from PayPal only, you can't send your coin to external wallet. But the good thing is, PayPal now enable to send Bitcoin to external wallet.

Well I'm not really followed about Bank of Cyprus's case, but since it's in crisis situation, they have no funds to cover their clients money. I agree after all any centralized party will not able to prove all of their promise.


It's true anything can happen in the future, but it's sound like you're somewhat have similar speculation with me because you're thinking the government will be very strict about KYC rule ;D even though it's not related with CEX and Bitcoin.


Majority of people are like this, they're aware of Kucoin will ask KYC in anytime, but not all people are asked to complete KYC verification. This same applies with CEX, every year CEX always got hacked or scam, but not all CEX suffer that.

They need to get a lesson first before they will learn, but the funny thing there are a lot people never learn even though they have a lot experienced and lesson from their fault.


A legend say, time will tell everything :D

Centralized services do seem to be favoured by the authorities, perhaps because it's much easier to enforce regulations upon them. The op mentioned custodial Chivo wallets and a potential of growth of the centralized exchange market, which are both reasonable predictions. In my country, there's also an example of a centralized exchange (Binance (https://www.binance.com/en/news/flash/7348839)) being a part of collaboration with a network of pharmacies, so if someone wants to pay with Bitcoin for their goods, people can only pay using their Binance accounts.
Of course, such decisions motivate people to turn to centralized services like exchanges, but I am okay with it, as long as decentralized solutions and non-custodial wallets aren't outlawed. And thankfully, while outlawing them is possible, enforcing the ban is extremely hard. So it should be fine, with all sorts of companies and options getting their audience and growing.

A new financial system that is built contrary to the Bitcoin ideals is knowingly/unknowingly serving the agenda of the tyrants who will take full control of the system or the world in the future.
From my experience so far, I know it will be hard to persuade most people not to embrace the system because it will be so convenient, and the carrots/incentives will be hard for them to resist. You will be hated and attacked by national zombies if you ever try to use Bitcoin the right way. They will make sure you are denied every opportunity to exist or survive. Well, only few out of billions can survive this. They will survive and thrive in a parallel and independent system they built themselves. The system will have all the necessary features the Bitcoin Network has to offer. (Those who depend on GOD will survive pretty well).

By then, most people you interacted with in Crypto space will have nothing to do with you as they have chosen the slave/tyrant path in order to survive... Those who follow the opposite/parallel path are seen as enemies. Those who choose the slave path will hardly remember most things we discussed in Crypto space or what Bitcoin is all about. It will be as if their memories were wiped out and filled with false memories designed by the system. They are part of the enemy's body(body of satan) and will speak in unity

---

There will be two systems in existence in the future, one for the free the other for slaves. Decentralized Bitcoin will be one of the financial systems used by the free.

Fully maximizing anonymity or privacy seems will always be a specialized niche. There are simply too many gaps between regular users and those who want to maximize it. Regular users are having lack knowledge about their own privacy choice implications or even knowledge. Privacy in a digital world seems too abstract for them. The nature of how the current internet evolves also isn't incentivized privacy as a default choice. With that in mind, the important thing is people have a choice about which path to choose.

Nowadays, maintaining complete privacy has become impossible for several reasons. One of the causes for buying and selling bitcoin. By using a decentralized exchange, you can trade in anonymity. However, there will be a connection when you buy or sell it unless whatsoever. When dealing with fiat, you must use bank or MFS services, where you must disclose your account information. In other words, even if you didn't submit KYC, the other end will somehow know your information. There is really no easier option, in my opinion. The CEX alone is not a concern.

That still won't let them reverse a bitcoin transaction, only the fiat transaction. I don't think that any exchange will ever agree to reverse fiat transactions and cover your loss in bitcoin, because that bitcoin transaction (legit or not) did go through and there's no way to reverse it, unless the recipient is also a centralized, regulated exchange that agrees to send it back. In both cases the exchange would have to spend time and money to correct your mistake.



They were in trouble and decided that their clients will have to cover some of the loss to prevent the bank from going bankrupt. Clients who held more than 100k EUR where charged a large fee.
In short, they made their clients pay for their mistakes. It's like if the mechanic would tell you that he's short on cash so he'll take your wheels and sell them so that he can fix your car next time you visit him.

Since in Bitcoin you have a choice to choose privacy oriented or no privacy, I think we need to choose privacy oriented even though we're not successfully achieve 100% privacy. If we trade using DEX or P2P, we will a trace about our bank accounts, because it's the way we receive the money. I think good P2P and DEX wouldn't save our credentials, so we wouldn't need to worry if there's data breach problem on that's exchange.

In CEX, the hacker can obtain all of our personal information which have been submitted by us. It will safe and prevent us from criminals who want to search someone who hold a lot Bitcoin.

I'm sure we've all had to cough up our identity cards at least once in our lives. The problem though, comes when we are forced to give it to those places which are ripe for abuse, and where they can possibly be stolen.

The truth is that, in as much as we all advocate for a decentralized crypto ecosystem, we all at some point will still make use of centralized services, and it doesn't matter whether they ask for KYC verification or not, most would try to pass it as long as doing so would allow them carry out or enjoy whatever services they want to.
I am also not against centralized services, and neither am i against decentralized services as well, I choose and use which is best for whatever service I need at that time in particular , for example, it could be selling or buying of coin that is not listed on any decentralized exchange, in this kind of situation, I am happy passing kyc verification on a centralized exchange as long as doing this will allow me buy or sell the coin of my choice.

Every existing exchange actually has to be sorted individually even though they are included in the same category, namely CEX. Likewise with the crypto industry, Bitcoin and Shitcoin which must also be sorted individually even though the portions almost look the same, but these three things cannot be equated because basically they have their own separate paths. FTX is an exchange in the CEX category that has crashed and that can be used as an example by other CEX exchanges in order to strengthen itself to be better and so as not to crash in the future.

  -     If I have a centralized exchange to use I only count on my finger the ones I trust, and these are Binance, Huobi, Okex, and others. Whether I pass KYC on these platforms is fine with me.

Today, the country of El Salvador is aware of the adoption of bitcoin and it is one of the best among them. I am also impressed with the bitcoin enthusiasts here because I can tell that they know cryptocurrency and bitcoin.

Many people in this country do not use the Chivo wallet, because they find it to have bad features. And I have read something regarding this matter and judge it for yourself, Six of 10 Salvadorans Quit Using the Chivo Wallet (https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/27/six-of-10-salvadorans-quit-using-the -chivo-wallet-after-getting-the-bitcoin-incentive-study-shows/)

It's not today, El Salvador already accept Bitcoin as a currency since 2 years ago.

The reason why people are joining tin this forum are to learn about Bitcoin and crypto, it doesn't make sense if they're don't know about it lol.

It's just your assumptions for saying El Salvadorian don't want to use Chivo wallet because it have bad features. It's actually because El Salvadorian still don't want to use Bitcoin, they just use Chivo wallet in order to earn free of $30 from Nayib Bukele.

I agree to this a lot, I know that I will be able to use decentralized methods as much as I could, but there will be some time when I will be forced to use CEX one way or another. The most common of this is turning my fiat into bitcoin or turning my bitcoin into fiat.

We haven't figured out a way to make that decentralized, and it would be followed by governments anyway, they will know. This is why it could never be 100% anonymous for me, there could be some people who could try to achieve that, but I won't be one of those people and millions of crypto users are just like me. It's fine though, it's not really the point for me, I don't need anonymous, I need decentralized bitcoin with no government controlling it.

This is indeed an existent problem. If you're trading peer-to-peer, and you use banks, or stuff like Revolut, your transactions might be subjected to criminal activity. It depends. If you're moving a few hundreds of dollars, it's unlikely they'll get involved into it, even if some of your traders are proved to be criminals. However, if you want to acquire a million dollars worth of bitcoin, it's safer over all to use a CEX, even if you're forced to complete KYC.

I don't have a problem with showing this activity to the bankers. I just have a problem not knowing who else can view it. That's privacy.

Maybe not, but thinking Binance or Coinbase are too big to fail is a mistake. Everyone who used FTX thought they were too big to fail, and not only did the fail, but they were actively scamming the whole time.

I never once said bitcoin was a scam. Centralized exchanges are a scam. Bitcoin was used solely peer to peer before centralized exchanges, it can be used solely peer to peer now, and it will continue to be used solely peer to peer once every centralized exchange has exit scammed or been so heavily regulated as to be indistinguishable from a fiat bank.

No. The source of the money is whoever you are trading with. Bisq never handles your money.

Handing your personal information to a random casino or shitcoin project is indistinguishable from handing it to a random stranger.

In today's world, it's difficult (if not, impossible) to remain 100% anonymous. Governments always have an "open eye" in ways that you've never imagined. From surveillance cams, to analyzing Internet traffic and bank-related transactions, a person simply cannot escape from the hands of the government.

As far as crypto is concerned, governments are increasing their surveillance efforts to prevent as much people as possible from achieving privacy. It's no secret that KYC/AML rules are mandatory across centralized exchanges. Even some so-called decentralized exchanges (DEXs) are asking for ID verification documents. You'd only be limited to cash transactions in person or crypto-to-crypto trades through a DEX or P2P exchange. Be aware though, that some P2P exchanges are requiring users to verify their ID.

With KYC all over the place, crypto cannot achieve its full potential. I'm afraid there's nothing we can do about it since governments are already in the game. It may not be possible to achieve true anonymity, but at least you won't attract unwanted attention if you follow the necessary safety precautions. As long as you keep a low profile when conducting crypto-related transactions, no one will be able to catch you. Just my thoughts ;D