Bitcoin Forum

Hearing about Bitcoin ATM machines in advanced countries makes me think it's the best and cheapest way to deposit and send crypto, especially for those who know little about crypto and don't want their identity revealed when buying it.

My cousin over in the U.S. wants to send me a few dollars from the US down here.
I suggested she buy cryptocurrency and send it over because the exchange rate is higher when I receive it in cryptocurrency rather than a direct bank deposit (CBN). She decided to use the ATM to deposit Bitcoin because it was closer to her and easier to use—no identity verification was required.

I just went through the receipts today and realized the machine price rate is far different from the real market price of 30,130 USD per bitcoin.

Out of the $1,000 deposited in cash
BTC worth $7,000 was only deposited to the provided address.
The same thing happened with 1,800 dollars' worth of bitcoin, and only 1377 dollars' worth of bitcoin was received at the address.
People's necks are being cut by these machines.

If this is how it's normally charged.. then I can't advise anyone to use ATMs to deposit bitcoin but rather buy a Bitcoin crypto card from Walmart shops.

Current price is less than $23k and you exchanged it above $30k at that ATM. Is it a legit ATM?

Did you check its location on Coinatmradar (https://coinatmradar.com/)?

Bitcoin ATMs have different exchange fees that usually are between 9% and 12% in average. Unfortunately, there are Bitcoin ATMs charge you higher fees that can be around 20% or higher.

Those companies must have license to open those Bitcoin ATMs and they need to spend cost for security, operation, maintenance. It makes sense to see they charge high fee. I see Bitcoin ATMs are things to explore and satisfy our curiosity on how those ATMs work. Exchange Bitcoin on P2P marketplace or on centralized exchanges are better, less fee will be charged.

https://blog.coinsource.net/bitcoin-atm-fees/
https://www.fool.com/investing/stock-market/market-sectors/financials/cryptocurrency-stocks/bitcoin-atm/
https://www.investopedia.com/crypto-atm-6456118

You should blank out your cousins phone number from the receipt.

Bitcoin depo does usually have fees in the 10% range. BUT as far as I know individual store owners can set their own rates so it may not 100% be on Bitcoin depo.
It's the same thing as some ATMs in certain places (strip clubs) have high fees. Or the currency exchange rate at some local place is terrible compared to what you can get in a bank.

-Dave

What's surprising, you suggest him to transfer via an ATM for the 2nd time at the same price even though it clearly seems inconsequential. Don't know where the machines took the price reference from, the last time the 30k price was seen was in May last year.

If it were me, the first try would be enough to make my decision to stop using bitcoin ATMs for life.

I've never used Bitcoin ATMs but it's strange if they don't give you information, exchange rate of the trade before you accept to proceed it. It is my thought only. You did those transactions and could you confirm the ATM gave you such info before trade or did not give you such?

You got a big lesson by ignoring a basic rule.

If you try something, try with small amount.

What a dam try with $1000 or $1800 for your first exchange with Bitcoin ATM!

If you don't learn this basic lesson, in future, you will deposit all your capital to a phishing site. I hope you won't of course.

I know it's not the same company the OP is talking about, but the CEO of another one has just been arrested on several charges and one of them is for charging up to 20% without proper informing:

Cryptocurrency ATM Company CEO Arrested in Miami Beach on Warrant for Conspiracy, Money Laundering (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/cryptocurrency-atm-company-ceo-arrested-in-miami-beach-on-warrant-for-conspiracy-money-laundering/ar-AA188NmV)

In this second link it does talk about 20%:

Unlicensed crypto business indicted, accused of profiting from scams that fleeced vulnerable Northeast Ohioans, prosecutors say (https://www.cleveland.com/crime/2023/03/unlicensed-crypto-business-indicted-accused-of-profiting-from-scams-that-fleeced-vulnerable-northeast-ohioans-prosecutors-say.html)

We will have to see if something similar happens with Bitcoin Depo.

I guess this is what we complain about Bitcoin ATM's right? the price and fees are too steep for us to handle.

Maybe for the sake of experience I will try one (I haven't), but I know what's the issues ever since, so who knows.

Yeah, why with that huge amount though? you should at least try with smaller units and see how it goes, and then if you don't like what you see then stay away from it, just saying.

Wow it's charges it's pretty high. These machines are in what countries please I haven't heard of them. It's a very big loss trying to transfer 1800 dollars worth of Bitcoin and only receiving 1377. I wouldn't advice anybody to use such machines.as time goes on they will work on this because these machines will actually help a lot in cryptocurrency transactions.

It's super high! But ATM owners are running a business that requires a huge upfront investment so they need to recover the money from those who are using it. That sums up the reason for such high fees. Going forward, ask your cousin to buy bitcoin using an exchange like Binance and send it over to your bitcoin address directly. That will be much cheaper. But yes, she will have to do a KYC verification before she is allowed to do such transfers.

Honestly, bitcoin ATMs are not worth anything unless there is a huge emergency. For normal use, take the route of exchanges which will save both of you a huge sum of money from the fees.

If you check the receipt provided you will notice that the price is over $30k which is far higher than the current market price so when the $1,800 worth of Bitcoin is sent through the machine it is sent at $30,000 but when it gets to your wallet it's been compared to the real market price and not that of the machine.

Next time just tell her to register an exchange account and buy from there that way you'll be dealing with a very decent market rather than losing over $500 worth of Bitcoin to a machine she should just do the buy directly from an exchange an we also have some exchanges that do not require KYC before you can buy coin there.


South Africa, United States, Canada, Europe etcetera etcetera etcetera.

Bitcoin ATM's have higher fees (usually in the range 5-7%, at least over here in Europe), but this is far from normal. You should have done more research of the whole matter before you suggested your cousin to use one of those in order to send you the money.


I've used various BATM machines over years and each and every one of them mentioned the exchange rate so I am pretty sure it was the case here as well. Problem here might be that OP's cousin that did those transactions probably had no clue about bitcoin market price and cryptocurrencies in general so she had no idea how much she overpaid.

It is what I thought and why I asked the question.

People just skip or ignore reminders and later complain but they are responsible for their mistakes.

Bitcoin ATMs are here many years and if those devices don't give people information about exchange rate, nobody will use it and that industry would die many years ago.

I thought the transaction was old when I first sighted the acknowledgement slips, not knowing that the price was crooked to those levels. The BTC rate of over $30,000 while the actual rate is below $24,000 is outrageous, it's extortion for that matter.

I know that these companies want to gain but this gain is too much, it can't help an innovation that is still fresh. This explains why the ATM transactions of Bitcoin are declining, which is one of the good reasons have ever been pointing out in my past posts in this regard.

This is similar to what Bitcoiners are facing with third-party centralized processors online.

That's a good question, although there isn't just one answer to it. One of the reasons is definitely that people are used to using ATMs, and the other is because they generally don't have to do KYC. However, anyone who pays such a large fee cannot justify it with anything other than complete ignorance of what the real price is - there is no other justification.

---

It's a free market, and it's nothing new that we haven't seen before when it comes to the price difference. During the big bull runs, the difference in the price of BTC used to be several thousand dollars in some countries, so some even thought of moving to South Korea or at least finding someone there, because then you could really make a lot of money selling BTC in that country.

Oh, that's a bummer to hear! I know that Bitcoin ATMs often charge higher rates because of the convenience they offer, but I can see why you'd be hesitant to use them again if the price difference was that significant. While it's true that buying Bitcoin through an ATM may not be the most cost-effective method, it's important to weigh the pros and cons of each option before making a decision. For example, buying Bitcoin through an exchange may offer lower fees and a wider range of options, but it may also require more time and effort to set up an account and complete the transaction.

I heard about Bitcoin Depot ATM provider, not sure if this is the same company. Thanks for sharing your experience though, it's good to know that the rates at Bitcoin ATMs may not always be the most competitive.

In case you didn't know, hiding some of the characters of an address isn't enough. If you don't want us to know, hide the entire address. There is likely only one address beginning with bc1qa4yxgr4.

There is no reason in using Bitcoin ATMs now more. KYC? Yes. Private? No. Expensive? As hell. Even Binance doesn't charge like this.

But can individual store owners set their own bitcoin price as well? I've been using BATM for years, and buying price was if not identical then very close to the market price (give or take few percent) so I am really surprised to see ~25% difference. Is that the standard in the US? Looks more like a trap that you use once and never again and I doubt that's viable business model.

Another question (since you from US): can you get a SIM card without giving your ID? I am asking because OP said it was anonymous, while  I see on bitcoindepot website that they ask for a mobile phone number so in the end buyer might be far from anonymous.

Last time I was dealing with this they could not set the price just the percentage above for the buy and the below for the sell they wanted which would show as the price.
Which is kind of the same thing as setting the price BUT as the price goes higher their percentage becomes a larger number.

Without knowing the backstory and location of this BATM it's difficult to know why it's so outrageous in price. Is the store owner trying to get them out and hopes by charging outrageous prices they will have no business and remove it? Was it a simple screw up? Other?

As for anonymous SIM: https://silent.link/#generic_price_table there are also a ton of others and you can still walk into a lot of places and get a cheap disposable prepaid phone.

-Dave

But the high cost however is not a good deal if they want a sustainable business, this is an obvious drawback that will probably only be ignored for people who really have a pressing need. In addition, certain corporate bitcoin ATMs have quite complex processes when compared to p2p markets.

The best method here is either to use a dex or use p2p exchanges (ie there's often people here trying to sell or buy).

Crypto ATMs might see themselves being banned soon in countries that aren't libertarian hellscapes for this reason (I don't know where those are, but the UK issued a ban a few months ago and they issued a similar one to normal atms charging high fees).

Yeah that makes sense. Looking at cointamradar, I always thought that you guys in the US have much better terms simply due amount of ATMs (more competition, better terms for users), but for whatever reason fees are more reasonable over here. In one of the earlier posts you said that Bitcoin depo usually have fees in 10% range, while I quit my BATM for increasing fee from 4.5 to 6% lol.


Yeah I know about these services, I am using Hush app for virtual number but from my experience that's not something that an average person use (and OP's cousin probably didn't use it either).

this is also one of the top reasons why very few are using bitcoin ATMs. as there are other cheaper methods to convert your crypto to fiat or getting btc, people are choosing that route. most are only after the experience if they are using the btc ATM or for convenience purposes. other than that, as much as possible they are using online services when it comes to crypto.

Actually no... it's not cheapest way and also not best way. It's a good way, but not best. Maybe a better alternative is a peer-to-peer transfer and buy directly from someone interested in selling (or vice-versa). However, I also can not call this as best way, as it involves some risks (you don't know who you'll met and maybe it's a thief). However, talking directly to someone and making a peer-to-peer deal would help you a lot regarding fees (meaning the price for which the counterparty will sell you BTC).

ATMs offer anonymity and anonymity has a price. Yet the price you paid is way too big. As others said already, ATM fees are usually around 10% (a bit more for selling crypto to the ATM and a bit lower than 10% for buying from it). However, in your case, the ATM robbed you, by selling you at a price with 25% higher than CoinMarketCap price! What ATM was it? What brand? Was it a cash-in / cash-put machine or cash-in only? I am asking because I also noticed in my country that cash-in only ATMs sell you BTC at prices way higher than the two-ways ATMs.

Other than that, I see there is a phone number on the ticket you presented in OP. Have you tried to dial that number and ask why was that huge price used? It's a small chance, but maybe it was an internal error of the operator...

From a quick glance and with limited knowledge of how Bitcoin ATMs work from the setup perspective, I assume that the person who owns the ATM set a pretty high fee and that fee is baked into the price for the end user.  Maybe this is done for simplicity or to hide the fees from the user so it seems like a fee-free experience, but regardless of what is to blame that receipt could give more information.  I can understand things on the screen trying to be as simple as possible and not have the user doing math to calculate fees, but to not show anything at all seems almost misleading.  Especially if it's built into the price and nothing else is shown.

This incident serves to be an eye opener, because most of the time users never look for the fees. Then onwards it is must to have watch the fee prior to withdrawal/deposit. Our earnings going into someone's pocket without reason needs to be stopped. Very limited regions have got Bitcoin ATMs and these act of increased fee will surely generate negativity among the cryptocurrency users who have been using cryptocurrency for different purposes (shopping, buying services,etc). Concern person who had set the ATM should be contacted by the ATM provider an necessary steps need to be taken at the earliest.

It is built into the price and from what I also know nothing else is shown. Maybe some extra fee as "transaction fee" in some cases.
However, the ATM shows both buy and sell prices and you can easily see how big is the spread, hence the fee they're trying to get from you. Not the most straightforward way, nor the most exact, still it can work/can help.


Wow. I've seen ~14% fees and I've found them very big (normal would be somewhere closer to 6%). But in your case, if my math is right, it's 23.5%. That's indeed excessive.

I'm sorry, wasn't your cousin informed about the fees and the exchange rate beforehand? Why would he proceed with such a high purchase price? I'm not sure about other countries, but ATM fees are also excessive here, but this is outrageous, daylight robbery. If the exchange rate is so bad, what's the point of using an ATM? I'd rather pay taxes than lose so much money for absolutely no reason. This is the main reason people are reluctant to give up on exchanges: almost every other option isn't as convenient and usually costs more than it should.

Not surprising, I've always assumed Bitcoin ATMs have awful rates, though that does seem a bit high haha.


I mean the ATM company has to get enough money just from fees to cover the cost of creating, servicing, and transporting these machines.

The only reason to use a Bitcoin ATM would be if you want to keep your Bitcoin entirely private which you can't do through exchanges. And localbitcoins just shut down so I think there's only now a couple small online options for privately acquiring Bitcoin and they also from what I've seen have their Bitcoin marked up by a few thousand dollars though $30k cost compared to $23k price or whatever is a bit extreme yeah.

The catch is (sort of anyway) that lets say BTC is at $25k if a BATM is moving 2BTC a month then you are in *theory* making $5k a month at 10%
Take out the cost of rent in the space in the store.
Take out the cost of running the back end network.
Take out the cost of having people load and unload the cash from the machine.
Take out the cost of the machine itself.
Take out the cost of the 4g service for the machine to communicate.
Take out the cost of having office space and staff for your help desk people.
Take out the cost of running the back end server.
And so on....

It's not 5K. The more BATMs you add the easier that number becomes, but some things do get bigger. More support staff / workers in general. More insurance costs. At $50k BTC you can go with a lower percentage. And if your machines are moving more then 2BTC a month you can go with a lower percentage. But at these low levels, it's a tough call.



You can walk into Target or Walmart and get a prepaid SIM and set it up with just about any info you want to give them to activate.
https://www.target.com/p/mint-mobile-7-day-trial-kit/-/A-54444205

-Dave

I believe someone with crypto experience cannot make the kind of mistake she made, though. Because she could have checked the price carefully, I believe exchange rates are shown before any transaction is made. I will have to ask her the location of the ATM and its name, if possible, so that people can be warned about the high charge and all that.
Is there any physical shop where one can buy Ballet Crypto wallet cards that can be deposited directly into one's wallet?
 

If am the one buying that could have been my best option, but she is the kind of person who do like going through stress of registration, verification and all that just to buy something which she want to send over.

You could have done it for her. You are the one that has experience with bitcoin, not her. The Bitcoin ATM map allows you to enter any city and shows the locations of ATM machines. After that, it's just a matter of finding the one with the lowest fees that is still operational.

Wish I was close to her their should have not been need for the Deposit in the first place, just wired transfer.
Am in Nigeria why she base in the US.
Was the one who suggested she send money over through crypto instead of Bank deposit into my local bank here because the exchange rate is nothing to write about.

You could have used an electronic wallet like Wise. She opens a Wise account deposits money and sends it to you. Wise to Wise transactions in the same fiat currency are free. After you get it, you either withdraw it to your bank or debit card. Assuming, of course, that Wise, Skrill, or similar services work in your country.

I used to think that they must be making crazy money, but since I was a regular customer at one BATM I had an opportunity to talk with the owner and after he told me all the expenses he had I realized that situation is very different from what I initially thought. Still, that's not my problem so if I can choose an alternative method and save a couple of %, of course I will go for that. Now, I only use it as a last resort sort but luckily that happened only few times in the last 3 years.


Of course exchange rates are shown, but if you send a person that has no idea about bitcoin market price, what else did you expect to happen?

That's a mistake from my end, and it won't repeat itself again. Trying to figure out a physical shop where she can buy Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency that can be sent via card in case there's a next time. 

Have you considered having your cousin use a decentralized exchange like Bisq? It's harder to set up and get used to for those familiar with centralized exchanges, but there is no KYC and no withdrawal fees like with CEXs. In theory, she wouldn't even have to send you the coins after a successful trade if you want to save some more on transaction fees. Bisq is also a non-custodial wallet, where you generate a seed to store the coins you use in connection with the app. That seed could be encrypted and sent to you. I don't recommend sending and storing such data digitally, but it still remains an option.

Some P2P alternatives are https://hodlhodl.com/ or https://localcoinswap.com/.

This would be a great help. 
Let me give it a try first, then see how it works so that I will have a wider knowledge base when explaining it to her. 
I like testing and experiencing something first before recommending it to someone else.

Bitcoin ATM is the worst method to enter in crypto

P2P trading is risky too as scammers are abundant to wait for naively newbie P2P trade partner to join their scam traps.

I used to feel very cool to read news about Bitcoin ATMs in my nation when I was a cryptocurrency newbie. It gave me feeling like Bitcoin is something really real, touchable and not something 'virtual' like local media wrote about Bitcoin. I felt more convincing about Bitcoin and honestly as well as fairly to say Bitcoin ATMs have good contributions to bring Bitcoin to more people. Contributions can be online exposure, belief like I have or physical experience like OP or someone in my local area did with Bitcoin ATM at Pizza store.

It's cool and as I said previously, in their review video, they tried with small amount!

Care to elaborate that further? Just keep in mind that not all crypto ATMs have ridiculously high fees like the one OP mentioned.

Imho, there are far worse ways to buy your first crypto, like buying it from centralized exchange where you have to go through KYC.

Since someone made a private comment to me:


Saying I listed the back end twice, the answer is no I just did not express it properly:

The back end 'network' is all the back end infrastructure you have to run to keep your office and the BATM BUSINESS running.
The back end 'server' or servers is what you need for the BATMs to talk to the outside world and send & receive transactions.

For the sake of security should be separate and discrete setups.

Too often they are not separate as they should be, but even so there are still a ton of costs to run BATMs

-Dave

Oh boi, aint technology a real wunder? One minut we're givin props to Bitcoin ATMs for bein all convenyent and low-key, and then the next thang you know we're all like "screw these mashines, they're just tryna play us". Ya know what they say, "with grate power comes grate responsibility" - but it seems like these mashines aint livin up to they're end of the bargan.

But let's not loos sight of the biger pitcher, ya feel me? This is just anuther example of how the world of crypto currency is still in it's baby stages. We're still tryin to figure stuff out, still testing the waters, and yeah, we'll make mistayks. It's like watchin a baby try to walk, they're bound to trip and fall, but eventually, they'll get the hang of it. And I got faith that we'll do the same with crypto currency. We'll learn from our mistayks and create a more dependable and trust-worthy system. In the meantime, let's not get too caught up and just enjoy the ride

Anytime you go to use a BTM there will be a 10-25% for the use of the machine. This is not ideal but if you have no other option then it’s good. Most legit operators are required to verify your identity and have KYC and AML in place. If not then it’s a sketch company who will eventually get shut down by US regulators. Just this week Bitcoin of America got shut down