Bitcoin Forum

If I understand correctly, the explanation is simple: all one has to do is deposit and hold it on their balance, and the reward will be calculated based on their period of holding.

My question is, since it's nothing like staking, if one
decides to deposit today and can't be patient enough to wait for a full month, how will the reward be calculated? Will there be no reward for such a depositor?

Will there be any form of fee deduction or what so ever? I can't see any information regarding fees here. I know if one wants to withdraw back to an address fee needs to be charged to cover up the transaction, that's the not fee am asking of. 

It's quite similar to a staking system, rewards are distributed daily to your Note so you don't have to wait for a full month to access them.

For example if you have a Note with a balance of 1BTC you will receive 0.00033333BTC every day added to your balance, so 0.01BTC a month in total. After a day your Note balance would be 1.00033333BTC and so on until you withdraw. You could deposit today, wait for a day, withdraw and you would still get to keep the rewards for that day.

At the moment there are no fees on Whirlwind, not even for on-chain withdraws. Unless you choose to donate voluntarily it's completely free to use and all fees are on us. We will update the FAQ in the second post with more information

Alright, thanks for the clarification. I understand it much better now, and it's really nice that you are operating a very transaction-free platform. I thought it was just temporary when you implemented it last time. Keep up the good work, and I will try this out and get some daily rewards for why I'm still exercising my holding exercise.

Is it a fixed amount every day, that 0.03333... BTC or it will depend on the amount of bitcoins that passed through your service on a certain day? Also, is this 1% or 0.0003333 for 1BTC the guaranteed amount or it can also vary depending on the use of the service and total bitcoins in your stake "pool"?

According to the explanation, which 1 BTC was used as an example which 0.00033333BTC is a daily reward for 1 BTC holding, this equally means that if you are to deposit and hold 2 BTC your daily reward will be 0.00066666 and if you are to hold lesser so will the daily reward be lesser, this daily reward are calculated to sum up a 1% monthly APR. until their target is being reached and when that's done, then they can announce if it's to continue, or if they are to stop, or if they will implement new reward system.

So, it mean, monthly interest amount is fixed and it is not cumulative, no compound interest, only 1% per month is the maximum reward for participants.
In fact, the APR at 12% is higher than what we can get at the moment if we compare with banks. But, have you ever thought about applying compound interest? Although it is not very feasible :D

By the way, it looks like the image is faulty? I can't see its details

What is going to happen if not enough people send Bitcoin for this Anonymity Mining Campaign, and is there any way someone could track how much BTC is deposited in total?

This is a good idea you have shared OP. I am curious to know more about this. Do whirlwind have their own mining farm or they are affiliated to another mining farm let us know because from what I see, whirlwind are mixers and I believe they are doing just fine with that investment. How come So soon it is a mining farm with a 12% APR daily yield rewards. Is it not worth explaining so we could know?

Lastly, it seems there is a glitch while you were trying to upload your image content. I think you should try uploading it again or you edit and do the needful so as to help give proper pictorial explanations.

I am also curious when there are not enough people who deposited into the pool, but One things is sure that this staking service acts as add more security into the mixing itself but correct me if I am wrong.

and if this is deposited into a single address like on SmartContract I think we might know how much person deposited on that pool by filtering the address by deposit. Right? but let whirlwind team explain hehe

Who is going to hold the privkey? Of course, it's whirlwind if I'm not missing anything. I don't think a lot of people will be interested because of the above reason. It's the same as centralized exchange staking though the APR is high here if I'm correct.
You mean any funded note. Does it include the previous funded note? I have created note for the signature campaign fund. Is it eligible for the above reward?
If yes, please tell me how to exclude my note from this campaign.

The 1% monthly return is the minimum we guarantee for as long as the campaign will last, we adjust the distributed amount every day to reflect this considering the multi-sig balance changes. With the current balance of around 11BTC our costs are about 0.11BTC a month.

In order to reward early depositors we were considering setting a 'floor' for the total rewards paid out at 0.5BTC a month, meaning that with the current balance a depositor would receive 4.5% monthly return. This figure would go down continuously until it comes back to the usual 1% when the balance hits 50BTC and will continue like that until our Anonymity Set goal is reached.

The rewards are compounding, every day you receive 1%/30 of your total Note balance and that includes Anonymity Mining distributions.

Fixed the images thank you for pointing that out

Everyone can track how much BTC is currently in the multi-sig since it's public: https://mempool.space/address/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r (https://mempool.space/address/bc1qf8h5k6sash8007vpesymxkw2xsg5d0r3j4l5vmcrwpz2pqu66fjstzgd3r)

Nothing happens if people don't deposit, same as if we never started this campaign. On the other hand that would mean that there is no interest at all in Whirlwind, even though it's hard to believe that will be the case. All the feedback we received until now from people that tried us out was very positive, especially for the Pay to Note system. We built a novel system and that's almost surely the reason why it takes longer for users to get accustomed to it and understand its advantages, but with time we are sure this will change for the better.

We've been transparent about the fact that we pay these rewards ourselves from our reserve. There are no partnerships with any other projects and it's important to make it clear that this campaign is temporary, Whirlwind is not a staking platform and it will never be. The point of this campaign is to grow the Anonymity Set and this is only needed at the beginning of the service, the stage we are in now.

Yes it does, by having a larger Anonymity Set every current or future user benefits from a higher level of privacy when using Whirlwind. If it's still not clear why this is the case please ask and we will explain again.

What do you mean by who is going to hold the private key? Only users have access to their Note private key, we do not have that information.

If you have a funded Note, including if you received the signature campaign payment on it, then you are automatically participating in the campaign and are receiving daily rewards based on its balance. If you want to exclude yourself from this campaign the only way to do so is to withdraw your balance to your on-chain address, otherwise rewards will keep accumulating.

Also keep in mind that if it makes economic sense for you (daily reward covers the network fee for another deposit), you could withdraw the entire balance right after receiving the daily reward and then deposit it again right before the next daily reward is distributed. This way you would keep your risk at a minimum, but if you think we will steal your funds then there is no argument for depositing in the first place.

Maybe you could try using the latest tool from member Bitmover for updating live Multi-sig Balance and Reward distributed (with some tweaking):
https://bitcoindata.science/bitcointalk-api.html

So if I understand correctly you need to have more transactions for this campaign to work, that means it's better to have a 1000 transactions sent with 0.1 BTC than to have 100 BTC sent all at once from one wallet?

We are updating the second post manually after each distribution (which is also done manually) so not sure if it makes much sense using that tool in this case, but we could display the live balance along with each day's stats so it's easier to follow.

1000 x 0.1 BTC is definitely a lot better than 1 x 100 BTC for the stage we are in now, but it's still not ideal.

For a total volume of 100 BTC the best case scenario would look like this: 100 x 0.1 BTC | 20 x 0.5 BTC | 20 x 1 BTC | 6 x 5 BTC | 3 x 10 BTC

The more varied the deposited amounts are and the more transactions happen, the better it is since it will make it much harder for anyone to track where outputs originate from.

Imagine we got to the 10,000 Anonymity Set goal and the deposited amounts look like this: 2000 x 0.1 BTC | 2000 x 0.5 BTC | 2000 x 1 BTC | 2000 x 5 BTC | 1000 x 10 BTC | 1000 x 50 BTC

Now you want to find out where a 0.5 BTC or 1 BTC or 5 BTC output might originate from, where do you even start? It could originate from one or multiple deposits out of the entire 10,000, or it could simply be a Pay to Note transfer, how could you know? Even if you have access to the most advanced analytics software in existence it's impossible to figure it out unless you have outside information. This is why it's crucial to grow the Anonymity Set as fast as possible, if we manage to succeed in doing this then nothing comes close to the privacy you're getting when using Whirlwind. The Anonymity Mining campaign's role is to help us get there faster by basically paying for these deposits to happen.

You can just post the code below and the balance will be updated automatically, no need to manual update anymore.

Wouldn't that mean that you'd need to invest for ~8.2 years before you get a 100% ROI?

I'm not quite sure if this will be profitable in the long run. I haven't heard of any mixer that has managed to run for that long.

Not yet? I thought the previous mixers had been around for a long time, for example Chipmixer, they had a very long time. It must have been more than 5 years, right? Furthermore, I think we don't have any problem in withdrawing, they don't talk about our withdrawal limit time.

It was 6 years. Still would not be long enough to break even though (assuming you start today).

interesting concept, but in the long run how profitable is it on your side because this service has guaranteed rewards for anybody staking going with the  "Anonymity Mining"?

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Btw, I guess anybody that wants to hodl should go with this service as it kills two birds with one stone. hodl will you earn 8)

I don't think that the fact Chipmixer run for 6 years matters, because according to the site:


Does this mean that over 10k deposits, there will be no more campaign payments? What will be the incentive for people to keep depositing, when the number starts getting close to 10k?

I'd be willing to deposit, but there's this thing in the back of my head saying: "What if they have access to these generated private keys? It wouldn't be the first time when the mixing operator lied about something. If whirlwind gets busted somehow, the way they got Tornado, Helix, Chipmixer, will they be able to get my bitcoin?"

You may have misunderstood how the campaign works, it would be insane to ask you to deposit for 6 years or any amount of time really.

Distributions are made every day around 12:10 AM UTC so to be profitable you would need to wait for a maximum of 24 hours if for instance you deposited at 12:20 AM UTC, or only 10 minutes if you deposited at 12:00 AM UTC.

For a 1 BTC deposit your balance would look like this:

Day 1: 1 BTC
Day 2: 1 + (1 * 0.01) / 30 = 1.00033333
Day 3: 1.00033333 + (1.00033333 * 0.01) / 30 = 1.00066677
Day 4: 1.00066677 + (1.00066677 * 0.01) / 30 = 1.00100032
..

You can withdraw your balance at any point, there are no special conditions to participate in the campaign. All Notes are eligible and automatically participate in the campaign, you will receive rewards for as long as your Note is funded.

We hope we will reach the 10,000 Anonymity Set goal as soon as possible. We do not necessarily care about how long you keep your funds inside Whirlwind because by the time the campaign ends we would have added our entire reserve. At that point the multi-sig balance won't be an issue, even if we assume there is no other depositor besides us it should be more than enough to accomodate any amount.

In the short term we will almost surely lose money, but in the grand scheme of things it's irrelevant. A few BTC is a very small price to pay for what we are getting in return through this campaign. After reaching the Anonymity Set goal we expect the business to become very profitable because at that point it wouldn't make much sense for anyone to use another service so it's only a matter of time until Whirlwind's popularity explodes.

Yes the campaign ends once we reach 10,000 deposits. If you are only looking for rewards then there won't be any incentive to deposit anymore, we are not a staking platform. On the other hand if you're looking for real privacy then you'd get it by simply using the service, and you could get it for free if you don't choose to donate.

We have no reason to keep the Note private keys, if we wanted to steal your funds we could simply drain the multi-sig since that's where the BTC is kept. Currently the service is centralized, so you need to trust us if you want to use it.

From a technical point of view Tornado is the undisputed king and IMO it cannot be compared to anything else. Even though it got sanctioned no user lost any funds and it continues to function to this day, in fact it's unstoppable as long as Ethereum continues to exist.

If it's not obvious already Whirlwind is built on the same model, so it's already 'battle-tested' and we know for a fact it offers the best privacy assuming enough volume goes through it and the Anonymity Set is big enough. Considering this our only remaining important task besides reaching the Anonymity Set goal is to decentralize the service and we are already working on that as we speak.

We will also improve upon Tornado's compliance module and that should be more than enough to avoid giving anyone reasons to target us, more info about this will be released once we finalize the details.

Regarding Whirlwind getting 'busted' firstly there is no reason for this to happen for the foreseeable future, but our response to this concern is worth reading nonetheless:

"Not your keys, not your coins"

- Biden, probably

What happens when you don't have any coins left? For example, what if someone deposits 100 BTC (which is extremely unlikely at the moment, but say if) and expects to earn 1 BTC every month? Can you handle it financially? As far as I'm concerned, you have not disclosed the amount of personal stash you have. If you don't want to do that, which is very reasonable for a service like this, then perhaps limiting the amount earned is a wise choice.

So basically what you're trying to do is take loans from every depositor.

From what I read, it is no clear to what extent a seizure or the bankruptcy of the service providers would impact the stakers. A 12% APR is a very promising profitability for a money that is otherwise frozen, but it has nothing to do compared to the loss of the 100% of the capital, if these problems happened.

If I'm wrong and there is no risk associated because Bitcoins are retrievable at any moment no matter what, then I will have to think it twice.

We mentioned in the ANN thread that we are expecting to pay up to 6 BTC for this campaign, but we can handle it even if it goes beyond that. Keep in mind that a portion of the multi-sig balance would be our own reserve, so the 'real' amount of rewards paid out is always lower than the amount stated publicly.

We did not disclose the amount in the 'personal stash' not because we don't want to, but because as said from the beginning we intend to use it to permanently increase the multi-sig balance and the Anonymity Set by blending it in with other users deposits. If we were to disclose any of the wallets we intend to use for depositing we would incur extra costs to obfuscate the trail again before doing it and that would be pointless, we'd much rather spend that on Anonymity Mining rewards. You will notice that as soon as deposits start to happen more frequently the balance will drastically increase and it will never come back to the current levels.

'Taking loans' is one way to look at it, but it's not entirely accurate since we do not touch customer deposits, nor do we care about how long they are kept inside Whirlwind. We are only interested in 'artificially' boosting usage for a while until the Anonymity Set is big enough to accomodate large deposits/withdrawals without it being a privacy concern.

There is risk since it's a centralized service. Your BTC is retrievable at any moment only as long as Whirlwind is running, so you need to trust us if you want to participate in the campaign or simply use it for privacy.

I noticed there is no option on the website for setting a fee so I was wondering: if Whirlwind is paying the fee when users move their funds from their notes to their wallets, what type of fees is Whirlwind paying? Are they priority fees? Normal fees? Low fees? I am asking because, due to the network congestion, if low or normal fees are paid, transactions can be delayed for days.

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Here I am not sure I understood correctly... is the interest 1% or 4.5% and dropping to 1%? (By 1% I mean 1% per month, respectively 1/30% per day -- same for the 4.5%.)

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Have you considered how long you will keep this campaign running if the deposits number simply does not grow up to 10.000? Will you wait for 1 year to reach this number? 2 years...? Will it continue endlessly if this number is not met?

The last 4 outgoing transactions from the multisig address (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446575.msg62012825#msg62012825) used 40-47 sat/vbyte (1 (https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/97c39b820515210ab8cbcc7d677e8fa2c9c5fc8a89cf59029991f076dadb4462), 2 (https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/28832c61a0466695560ce877a215e0fb6295ae40610ee397916e53554641b4b5), 3 (https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/d07b8f987670d22e309678abebe054abc8742ace80db1d5a23b663d9f3483c45), 4 (https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/6890e86ea6f2d8d5b768a8ab005cf928e1d434866ef16ee8abf1fb2007d89a2f)).

In addition to my previous questions (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5452373.msg62316176#msg62316176) I would also like to ask if there is any problem with the daily paid interest. The problem is that I think I did not receive it for days now, maybe up to 2 weeks...

I asked also another staker yesterday, to check if he received during the night the 1%/30 daily interest and today he confirmed me he has same balance as yesterday, meaning that he also did not receive the daily interest.

Is there any problem with these daily payments? Are they made now at different intervals (e.g. maybe once per month instead of once per day)?

After reading this post I checked my own note and recorded the balance and then came back the next day to see if it had changed - and it had increased so I'm getting the APR daily.

Are you sure you saved down the exact amount on one day and then checked it again after a day or two?

I checked again today and I see that I received some sats during the night. However, excepting today (when the daily stake was added), during past days I checked too and for several days I did not notice any change of the balance... Apparently, this problem was also encountered by fillippone (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446575.msg62347763#msg62347763).

@whirlwindmoney
please run the [Script] Imgur to TalkImg - automatically fix your broken images (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5452662.0) to make your uploaded images visible to all users again ;)

I can confirm that my leftovers on Whirlwind are still exactly the same after my last withdrawal.
I should expect to receive something like 15 satoshi daily, but I don't receive any.
I am puzzled by the situation.
Not that 15 daily satoshi bothers me, rather I would like to know exactely how the reward work, as I received the payments in due amount and time until my first withdrawal.

That does sound strange, one of my notes has a low balance too but still receives rewards, even though I've made a withdraw.

What calculation do you use to get to 15 satoshi/day?

The only calculation that seems reasonable to me:

Daily interest=capital*annual interest*days/365
Hence
0.00046059 BTC*0.12*1/365≈ 0.00000015

Am I doing something wrong?

As far as I understand, the 1% is per month, not per year, dear fillippone. Therefore the calculation should be like this:

Daily interest = capital * monthly interest / 30.

The yearly interest is 12%, not 1%.

As far as I see, Whirlwind gave this example of calculation:

Oh, I got the day count rule wrong, apparently:360.
Even better.

Regarding the calculations.

My computation considering 12% yearly yield daily compounded:

Daily interest=capital*annual interest*days/360

Hence:
0.00046059 BTC*0.12*1/360≈ 0.00000015353 (15 Satoshi, still)

Using your computations:

Daily interest=capital*monthly interest*days/30

Hence:
0.00046059 BTC*0.01*1/30≈ 0.0000001535

Exact same result... As expected.

@whirlwindmoney
How long is this campaign going to be active?
All images in OP are not working (maybe move them to TalkImg) co I can't check any details right now.

They are on TalkImg already. The problem is with http/https. If to fix it we can see what is in the OP of the topic.


@whirlwindmoney
You just need to change http://talkimg.com/ to https://talkimg.com/ for images to become visible.

After @Hhampuz suggestion, I contacted whirlwind money support via mail.
They told me notes with a balance greater than 100K satoshis are eligible for an AMR.
They said they would post it in the OP, but I didn't see it.
So, posting here as I think it would be nice to know.

Hi, on the page they tell you that the minimum deposit is 0.001 BTC, it is there in green.

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I have made the minimum deposit, well,something more, but I think that, if it were possible to create a scrow (here) of the deposits to users in the forum, that campaign could receive more deposits,in fact, we would have a real campaign, based on the reliability parameters of the forum.


 I did mine a couple of weeks ago and even now it is at 421, it seems to me a slow rate of deposits, we could be talking about years at this rate.

I have made the deposit because whoever manages your signature campaign is trustworthy. otherwise he would not have done it, although let's say that the amount is not to die of a heart attack either, since any result would be my responsibility and that of W.M, that's why I mentioned it.

I am not sure which page you are referring to, but they told me in the message they sent me to receive an explanation, that they would have added this information to the website.

Probably the deposit page

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/06/12/AJLh1.png

We as campaign participants don't have to go through that page which is probably why you didn't see it, but anyone making a deposit would notice the 0.001 BTC minimum deposit which also applies to the mining campaign, this was also confirmed in their message to you (100k sats = 0.001 BTC) your deposit/leftover was 0.00046059 BTC which doesn't qualify for APR.

@GazetaBitcoin, was your balance over 0.001 BTC?

Yes, in my case the balance was always over 0.001 BTC. Since that post I noticed that some days I receive the daily interest and some days I still don't. Only once, when I did not receive it for one day, in the second day I received a double interest -- like covering for both days. But that happened only once.

Right now I did not get my daily interest for 3 days in a row.

I wanted to go to the website https://whirlwind.money/ today and look at my dashboard, unfortunately I always have "Host error" with Edge, does anyone else have this problem or do I have a local problem with my browser/PC? Internet connection...

My case: Error 503.
The server is under maintenance or is overloaded. It should not indicate us in the user signal, nothing more, that is, there is no reason to be alarmed, but it should take a few minutes... let's hope this is solved in my next query to W.M.

Two days in a row and the only thing that I see is hosting error 522. The problem still exists...

The site is working on my side. Additionally, the Tor version of the website is functional.

Regarding the clearnet website I observed that, if you try to access directly https://whirlwind.money/dashboard, you get the error. This may happen, for example, if you kept opened in a tab the dashboard of Whirlwind, in order to refresh it in the next day, for checking if you received the daily reward. If this is the case, then trying to refresh https://whirlwind.money/dashboard will give you the error.

However, if you try to open https://whirlwind.money, the site will load. Slowly, but it will load. Once it's loaded, you can click on Dashboard section and, after another slow loading, you'll be able to check your balance.

Thanks for counterchecking, but the site still doesn't work for me unfortunately, but I haven't tested the Tore version yet. Could also be that I have a problem with the cloudflare service, it will then test again at home.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/06/16/HUrlj.th.png (https://www.talkimg.com/image/HUrlj)


I don't see an indicator yet, but you can point out that something doesn't work as it should, maybe the operators read it.

That's easy to test: download Tor browser :) It's a useful browser to have ready to use anyway, not only for this.

or he can use alternative Brave browser that is based on chromium code with Tor support.
It's not as good as Tor browser but it can be useful for occasional browsing of onion websites.

btw LoyceV speaking about this topic, did you test the new Mullvad browser (for clearnet) that is based on Tor browser as collaboration between the Tor Project and Mullvad VPN?

Thank you for the tip but still, not working here. I will use Tor and I guess that problem will be resolved. 8)

Actually, it's under a DDoS attack.


Yes, it seems to be down again... However, I also notice that error codes received are different. You get a 522 error, famososMuertos got a 522 error and I receive now a 525 error. Maybe this information helps.


Yup, Tor is a good alternative now. It works for me too :)

The OP shows http://

The Clearnet option is still inactive/(DDoS attack, etc.): whirlwind.money

In any case, for some unsuspecting or nervous user, Tor V3 is working: whirlwct7ertqae6i7ivsm475kgia6v67zzxevgzkilykknrjke33cqd.onion

In itself it is the option to use by rule or religious canons of the experts.

Support, email=whirlwindsupport@proton.me

One consideration to take into account is that the contact, Bitcointalk: whirlwindmoney leads to the user's profile in the forum, not bad, but at least it should have the ANN information there and show all the pertinent information on its profile.

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thanks for your reply/info/support

I dont see the images too.

Very intriguing as I thought daily interests are not fixed but is compounding. Say  day1 100btc day 2 101 day 3 102.00033... ..

Thanks for the tip, so the TOR browser works for Whirlwind money?


Today I have again Error 525, on the weekend I have not tried the site, I basically do not care and can wait until the site works properly again, and otherwise there is yes as LoyceV and you writes the TOR browser as an alternative.

I wouldn't say they "work for someone". It's just a browser that can be used for all websites, including .onion sites.

There's only one way to find out for yourself:
Download Tor Browser (https://www.torproject.org/download/)

Thanks for the clarification, in any case the Whirlwind website now works again in the normal browser even if it is a bit slow.

It's actually contradictory because of the anonymity, but is it possible to view your own transactions when logged in on your own node?

I noticed that the OP is returning the invalid image error and I discovered it can easily be fixed by OP using https://talkimg.com instead of http://talkimg.com
You can use the code to fix the ANN