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Economy => Gambling discussion => Topic started by: Davidvictorson on May 17, 2023, 07:03:41 PM



Title: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Davidvictorson on May 17, 2023, 07:03:41 PM
    Ever wondered about the oldest casinos in the world? Well I know we are all about winning and avoiding losses from our bets however, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we learn about some of the oldest casinos that has been around. It will surely be of benefit to you, maybe not today but someday.

Here is a disclaimer for the moderators. I am not in anyway affiliated with the websites whose link I will be providing. I do not write for them, neither am I promoting them. And as such I will limit the quotes from them. This is just for educational purposes. I am putting it out here so that it doesn't get deleted as I have noticed with some of my posts in the past.


Now lets get to it

  • Kurhaus of Baden-Baden -Germany
Quote
The Casino located in Baden-Baden opened in 1838. Games are mostly played at the table: roulette, poker, blackjack and baccarat. Slot machines occupy a very special position. They are in a separate area and are also accessible to people in casual clothes. Poker tournaments are held regularly and they are attended not only by Germans, but also by people who come from all over Europe.

  • Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.

  • Casino de Spa – Spa, Belgium
Quote
It opened in 1763. In 1918, reconstruction of the Casino took place following numerous fires during the World War. Ardent Group acquired the casino in 2003. And in 2004, the first slot machines appear in the Casino. In 2014 broadcasting of the first live roulette in Belgium on 777 by the Casino de Spa. The brasserie received a larger area, and opening of a smokers area equipped with slot machines in 2017. https://casinodespa.be/en/

  • Crockfords Club in London
Quote
In 1828, a gentleman and an avid gambler named William Crockford set out to establish a luxurious club fit for diplomats, royalty, and the aristocratic elite. At that time, gambling establishments were illegal, but that did not stop Mr. Crockford. He kept being fined, but he paid the fines without a peep. The casino at Crockfords is not a typical casino. It is open daily from 12 PM to 6 AM. It has an 18th century “crème de la crème of English” feel to it with elaborate décor, old-fashioned furnishings, and warm colors. Upon stepping foot into the building, you will feel like you’ve traveled back to 1828.

At this casino, you will find classic table games like American Roulette, Baccarat, Blackjack, and Poker. Also, private rooms and private high-limit areas are available to the high-rollers and VIPs. Two of the four private areas (called the London Room and the Penthouse Suites) offer direct access to the building’s rooftop smoking balconies.
https://www.casino.org/uk/local/crockfords/

  • Casino Wiesbaden, Wiesbaden, Germany
Quote
The Casino Wiesbaden is reputed to be the oldest casino in Germany, having been granted a public gaming license by the Duke of Nassau-Usingen back in 1771. Daily from 11.00 o’clock (slot machine game) and 14.45 (classic game) until at least 4.00 in the morning, the guests seek and find small or big fortunes. The current gambling offerings are as comprehensive and exciting as is the history of Casino Wiesbaden. These range from classic French roulette, where all eyes are set on the track of the ivory ball once the cry "no more bets" has been heard at the up-market tables to American roulette, Black Jack, and poker.
https://www.casino.com/blog/news/oldest-casinos-in-the-world/, https://www.primomedico.com/en/cooperation/casino-wiesbaden/

  • Casino Spielbank Bad Homburg – Bad Homburg, Germany
Quote
Twin brothers Louis and François Blanc opened the Bad Homburg casino in 1841 and it remains one of the most celebrated in Germany almost two centuries later. Spielbank Bad Homburg was a popular gaming venue up until 1872 when gambling was prohibited in Prussia and it was forced to close its doors. Life began again in 1949 when the casino reopened, and it has gone from strength to strength since then.

Pay a visit and you can choose from 8 roulette tables, a mixture of French and American variants of the game. The four blackjack tables here include unique variations like Chance Blanc, Golden Jack and the tempting Free Bet Blackjack game. Poker tournaments and more than 140 slot games round out the gaming offerings here.
https://www.spielbank-bad-homburg.de/en/

  • Casino Interlaken - Interlaken, Switzerland
Quote
It opened in 1859, two months later the Cantonal Government banned all forms of gambling. Baron Azène du Plessis – who had built and run the Kursaal at his own expense – fled Interlaken after taking this brief, unlucky gamble. It was not until the era of belle époque, when gambling at the Kursaal was allowed to a limited extent, that there was an upward turn. In 1883, Jeu des petits chevaux , a game similar to Ludo, was introduced in all casinos in Europe, including Interlaken. However opponents of gambling sprang into action and won a long referendum campaign in 1920. Gambling was finished. But in 1928, boules once again became socially acceptable for a modest stake of 2 francs. It was not until the beginning of the 1990s that the gambling prohibition in Switzerland was lifted. On 13 June 2002, the Federal Council granted the Kursaal Interlaken a Type B casino concession and hardly two months later, on 31 July, the first guests were able to indulge in gaming.
https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=67946


Thank you for reading . I know that the list is inexhaustive. But like I wrote earlier this is just for educational and knowledge purpose. You can do more research on your own. Maybe start with finding out the oldest casino in your locality, state/province or country. I bet there are interesting things that awaits you. Good luck.[/list]


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: swogerino on May 17, 2023, 07:15:00 PM
Nice list but I think they are out of date right now in the era of Internet and online gambling and most likely they are only there for nostalgic old generation who have played in any of these casinos and I think the only casino standing the time are those from Las Vegas the capital of gambling,a city who never sleeps.The things these casinos can do to "compete" with online giants is to offer free meals and free drinks for anyone playing there which most likely they do now,as there are no other entices in order for people to be teased and to go there nowadays in our time.

Anyway they must be nice attraction to tourists visiting these cities and I would assume that they are now more of historical value rather than a lot of people to follow them and play there but anything can happen.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: btc_angela on May 17, 2023, 07:32:12 PM
Interesting to see that most of them are found in Europe, so we might say that it could be the birthplace of some of the modern games that we have right now.

Or we can say that Europeans as early as 1600 loves the richest and gamble their money. And I wouldn't be surprised though that we have heard a lot of richest family from Europe that their bloodline still exists today. Not saying that their money came from gambling or something, but money for sure has been flowing since that time that their families lineage still survived today.

And it has evolved so much in the last 100 years that now almost every country has one or two big casinos.



Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Wiwo on May 17, 2023, 07:38:06 PM
Funny enough I was looking out to see one of the contemporary casinos on the list most especially the well-known one here in the forum,  but I now remember that the list was made up of traditional casinos that only deal on fiat deposits, unlike the well-known online casinos we have around now since cryptocurrency casinos are now the rave of the moment.

But all together this is a good list and kudos to ops for putting this up.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: cabron on May 17, 2023, 07:58:15 PM
I was hoping to see old images where on their website they feature what they use to be in 1800. None of their pages have the story of history except Casino de Spa.

But because they are still operating, I guess they have adopted the newer gambling technology the kinds we see this 21st. I would really believe these casinos are meant to thrive forever if they adopt BTC.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Mr.suevie on May 17, 2023, 08:36:35 PM
I was hoping to see old images where on their website they feature what they use to be in 1800. None of their pages have the story of history except Casino de Spa.

But because they are still operating, I guess they have adopted the newer gambling technology the kinds we see this 21st. I would really believe these casinos are meant to thrive forever if they adopt BTC.
I guess its quite obvious because BTC is currently leading the casino business market and If  any  wishes to operate for a very long time that casino needs to be flexible and by flexibility I mean they need to adjust to the current trend of the market and bitcoin is currently making the gambling business thrive a lot as it is giving a boost because most people are into gambling with crypto. A business must often make changes if they want to succeed for long as change is the only constant thing among humans.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Johnyz on May 17, 2023, 08:44:11 PM
Good to know some of the oldest casinos are still in operation today.
Are they able to adopt new technologies in the 21st century? I wonder how their fairness works and if the gamblers still playing with them. If they are able to adopt and continue to grow more, then these casinos are meant to stay in the market, wondering what’s the oldest casino in Asia.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Cryptomultiplier on May 17, 2023, 08:54:01 PM
It's quite an interesting read and I couldn't help but wonder how these casinos managed to remain successful over time.
Also, with the recent development and advancement in the crypto world and block chain network in general, I wonder if these oldest casinos has struggled to keep abreast with the technology or they still apply the old technics they use?
If they have upgraded to a state of the art casinos with BTC amidst other cryptos integrated into its payment systems and all, would it be logical to say they have made more money, have attained excellence or nothing changed much since they started till date?


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: goaldigger on May 17, 2023, 09:52:42 PM
These casinos experienced a lot of problems already, from war, pandemics to financial crisis and Its too amazing to see them still in operation up to this date, most probably they adopt and continue to offer good services so that the gamblers will come back always.

Is there anyone here able to gamble with these casinos? How they machines works? Do they still have old machines in operation up to this date? I’m really curious about this as well.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: DoublerHunter on May 17, 2023, 10:09:12 PM
~snip~
  • Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.
^I believed this is the oldest one.
I remember this casino was filmed in the movie (Casino Royale) the 21st movie in the official James Bond film series.
I would love to visit this one of the oldest casinos which combines the excitement of gambling with the historical and cultural ambiance of Venice, making it a remarkable establishment that continues to captivate visitors from around the world. There is a question in my mind, is there a chance that they will adopt BTC as another way of payment?


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: tusandii on May 18, 2023, 07:44:22 AM
Pretty good list, I had never before heard of some of the oldest casino names you put on the list and this is my first time seeing the list.
Maybe this list can give us an understanding and insight about casinos that have been around for a long time, especially for novice gamblers.
With this list, it can also provide a little knowledge and knowledge that most gamblers rarely have because gamblers usually only think about ways they can win in playing or betting.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Plaguedeath on May 18, 2023, 07:56:50 AM
Crazy how those old casino is still operated until now, it's mean casino is one of a good business to survive in the long run. Maybe the current trusted and reputable online casino can survive until the next 300+ years later? as long as the casino hot wallet aren't get hacked :D

Despite there's a criminal or any other physical risk prone on offline casino, they're still survived until now.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: piebeyb on May 18, 2023, 08:36:40 AM
It's okay friends, this is information that maybe we need to know to get knowledge if we are in a certain country maybe we can visit that old casino to try some of the games there so we can see deeper into the history in it, to be honest I have never visited a land casino like this and I started playing gambling at online casinos since the first covid, besides in my country gambling is illegal so there are no land casinos.'

I think this thread is very informative for friends here maybe there are other additional casinos that you might add or the forum community will add them here.  ;)


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Doan9269 on May 18, 2023, 08:57:48 AM
    Ever wondered about the oldest casinos in the world? Well I know we are all about winning and avoiding losses from our bets however, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we learn about some of the oldest casinos that has been around. It will surely be of benefit to you, maybe not today but someday.

Here is a disclaimer for the moderators. I am not in anyway affiliated with the websites whose link I will be providing. I do not write for them, neither am I promoting them.

To me i see no need in putting some of their respective links since it's not that we will all be interested in going through them one after the other, but you can only provided a link source to where those informations were extracted from, this will always serves as a cover for all, as for this informations and research made, i will like to say you have done well so good for bringing up such topic, some olden days casinos and gambling website could be remembered by those who have long age experience in this gambling before we started in this modern world.[/list]


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: AicecreaME on May 18, 2023, 10:02:25 AM
This is a great list. It really proves that way back when there was little to no technological advancement yet, they managed to built casinos for entertainment and profit. Gambling really did exist even before, but just became more rampant and patronized recently since there are already casino websites online which are easily accessible and can provide convenience, since you can gamble wherever and whenever you feel like it.

But establishments like these now have great value for history, since most of these has been built in 1800s and even 1600s, it's a good place to see some architectural structures or ruins if there is left of it still. Perhaps it could be aa good tourist spot for gamblers who want to feel the old and traditional gambling vibes of a casino house which could be a great experience since their minds could be opened up into something entirely new, specifically if they seldom visit casino houses or if they frequently do, they will be able to compare and appreciate the past designs and its story.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Rruchi man on May 18, 2023, 03:03:03 PM
It will surely be of benefit to you, maybe not today but someday.
It will be of benefit more to casino owners and people here who plan to establish casino's in the near future. Extra research and studying of these casino's and how they sustained and kept their casino's running for so long can give great strategy, tips and ideas on how to run a long-term business in the casino industry because for them to have survived the business world for years even with the challenges that they must have faced means they had a way and formulated solutions to navigate all the problems they faced.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: dimonstration on May 18, 2023, 03:18:14 PM
On the list of casino above. Is there still operating until this day or manage to rebrand just to catch up on the new casino? It will be interesting if you can include data on what happened on each one of them aside from the history on how they are established.

It's very cool if there is still an OG casino that still alive and kicking. I’m wondering what’s the popular games at that time that most of this casino offered?

Is there any bonus system introduced or some VIP perks on that era?


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: crwth on May 18, 2023, 03:45:50 PM
The best thing that you could get out of this is that you can know how much they could be profitable as long as there are people who are playing on their casino, they can be profitable in the long run. Imagine being someone there as the beginning of those casinos, ooh.

Do they have a body count on those they have made bankrupt? Lol


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Casdinyard on May 18, 2023, 05:12:12 PM
Nice list but I think they are out of date right now in the era of Internet and online gambling and most likely they are only there for nostalgic old generation who have played in any of these casinos and I think the only casino standing the time are those from Las Vegas the capital of gambling,a city who never sleeps.The things these casinos can do to "compete" with online giants is to offer free meals and free drinks for anyone playing there which most likely they do now,as there are no other entices in order for people to be teased and to go there nowadays in our time.

Anyway they must be nice attraction to tourists visiting these cities and I would assume that they are now more of historical value rather than a lot of people to follow them and play there but anything can happen.
I don't think "being one of the oldest" is going to be out of date, long-running maybe but not oldest, so no matter what casino you put out as long as they aren't established and released before the casinos mentioned in David's post, I don't think this list isn't going to be relevant, or "out of date" as you put it.
On the list of casino above. Is there still operating until this day or manage to rebrand just to catch up on the new casino? It will be interesting if you can include data on what happened on each one of them aside from the history on how they are established.

It's very cool if there is still an OG casino that still alive and kicking. I’m wondering what’s the popular games at that time that most of this casino offered?

Is there any bonus system introduced or some VIP perks on that era?
Inconclusive, I tried looking it up myself but I wasn't really able to find any good answers for whether these casinos are still running or not. Casino de Venezia is still operational however, if that's worth something to you, but the rest, I have no idea.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: maydna on May 18, 2023, 05:30:42 PM
This proves that gambling has existed for a long time and has become a part of human life. Perhaps, there are other lists of casinos besides that list, and we don't know because gambling has existed since immemorial. Perhaps, gambling is as old as human civilization.

And now, gambling has progressed so much that what was once a traditional casino has become a modern form where we can play gambling through online casinos. This is thanks to technological developments where we don't need to come to a physical casino but just play gambling from home.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Slow death on May 18, 2023, 06:15:41 PM
no doubt that well managed brick and mortar casinos can stay operational for many, many years, on this list from what I can see these casinos are no longer operational, they are just part of the history of being the oldest casinos, but it would be great if we could having a list of the oldest casinos that are still operational today, because it would be a much more useful list and we could also analyze these casinos that have not had any problems with customers and governments and how they have evolved over the years and who the owners are

For example, I did a quick search and found this:

Ranking the Oldest Casinos Still Operating Today (https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/oldest-casinos-ever/)

Golden Gate Casino: has been active for 116 years

Monte Carlo Casino: has been active for 157 years

Kurhaus of Baden-Baden: has been active for 198 years

Spa Casino: has been active for 259 years

Casino di Venezia: has been active for 384 years

I believe people can still go play in these casinos, it would be a good experience if they can go there


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: alastantiger on May 18, 2023, 09:56:58 PM
Reading through this list these casinos are even older than some countries. I imagine what it would feel like to play in those casinos- the classic architectural edifice combines with a modern look would make it feel like a blast from the past while in the present.

While some of them have passed on to new owners some looks like they still remain in the family. It would indeed be a joy to play in one of  these casinos in my lifetime.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: dothebeats on May 18, 2023, 10:57:49 PM
I'd love to go to that casino in Venezia just for the general feel of what's inside one of the oldest gambling establishments in the world. While I may not be spending money on them, at least I get to feel what other people of old felt when they stepped inside this casino. As for casinos being popular in Germany, it's surprising that a lot of their gamblers aren't really problematic and are just there to take a chance or have a good time.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Vaskiy on May 18, 2023, 11:21:49 PM
I'd love to go to that casino in Venezia just for the general feel of what's inside one of the oldest gambling establishments in the world. While I may not be spending money on them, at least I get to feel what other people of old felt when they stepped inside this casino. As for casinos being popular in Germany, it's surprising that a lot of their gamblers aren't really problematic and are just there to take a chance or have a good time.
It looks like Germany have got good number of old Casinos. There is not much of news coming out of Germany about problem gambling, which shows the people prefer gambling to spend time. Everyone wish to have a visit to the old casino, particularly I love Germany for some reason. I have a dream to visit Germany atleast once in my lifetime. To the list now I can add the old Casinos.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: AmoreJaz on May 18, 2023, 11:40:36 PM
Reading through this list these casinos are even older than some countries. I imagine what it would feel like to play in those casinos- the classic architectural edifice combines with a modern look would make it feel like a blast from the past while in the present.

While some of them have passed on to new owners some looks like they still remain in the family. It would indeed be a joy to play in one of  these casinos in my lifetime.

and it goes to show that gambling has long been with us. it is like an innate form of human entertainment. so banning gambling activities in some countries won't pan out because it is already part of human nature.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Wakate on May 18, 2023, 11:53:54 PM
I am not surprised to see many of the old casinos in the world that had existed for so long and majority are still in existence till today because of how they have built there reputation which is what many of the new online casinos that are available now need to follow. Gamblers would always be ready to make bets if they are rest assured that there fund would not be lost or the casino could use any form of breaking there terms and conditions to attack the customer. So many bad casinos online now and that is why many of them don't last long.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: wxa7115 on May 19, 2023, 04:34:49 AM
I am not surprised to see many of the old casinos in the world that had existed for so long and majority are still in existence till today because of how they have built there reputation which is what many of the new online casinos that are available now need to follow. Gamblers would always be ready to make bets if they are rest assured that there fund would not be lost or the casino could use any form of breaking there terms and conditions to attack the customer. So many bad casinos online now and that is why many of them don't last long.
It is not like their traditional counterparts are any better despite the casino industry being one in which in theory the casinos cannot lose as they have a decisive advantage over the players, so you must not forget that a casino is still a business and if there is some sort of mismanagement at the top then they will go bankrupt.

And while the list presented by the OP is impressive, the list is also rather short, as most casinos which have existed over the years have failed for one reason or another.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Strongkored on May 19, 2023, 09:34:59 AM
There may be many older casinos that are still operating today but are not included in the list because of their unknown location or because their scope of use is not as large as the casinos above because gambling has existed for a long time and also doesn't only happen in Europe. Interestingly, the list of casinos are all in Europe and they are still in existence to this day, proving how going to a casino is such a fun thing, I'm sure not because people can have the opportunity to double their money there, but because gambling is also a way to get together and spend time together with friends and people we know and most likely also have a close relationship with.
And seeing that the old casino was still able to survive in an era where many have switched to online casinos because land base casinos provide different things that online casinos cannot provide, such as interacting with lots of people or also with dealers.

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we learn about some of the oldest casinos that has been around. It will surely be of benefit to you, maybe not today but someday.
I'm also sure not because this is just about the history about casinos that have been around for a long time and it's great that they are still able to maintain their business through many decades


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: slapper on May 19, 2023, 10:41:44 AM
This really feels like going back in time. While I think it's fascinating to read about these historic betting houses, I can't help but question if today's games don't have more shine. The deck is not affected by the wallpaper or the age of the chandeliers

Consider the contrast between a casino with a long and storied past and a flashy newbie in Las Vegas. For whom does this end? This is by no means a guaranteed thing. They both have the potential to turn you become a millionaire overnight, or to leave you penniless. Isn't it the thrill of taking a chance, the heart-stopping anticipation, and not the patina on the fittings, that makes them authentic?

What about virtual gambling establishments, then? They lack the tangible majesty of the real thing, but they offer the same enormous (or higher) payouts and the convenience of playing from the comfort of your own couch. That's hard to argue with, right?


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: aioc on May 19, 2023, 12:52:59 PM
Quote from: Davidvictorson link=topic=5453120.msg62259172#msg62259172

[list
[li]Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy[/li][/list]
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.


If I am an ardent casino goer I'll definitely want to visit this place and have a bet here and pride myself as one of the casino players that played in the oldest casino and have my picture taken in front of the oldest casino and will even take a deck card for souvenir coming from the oldest casino in the world, they have to keep up modernizing it and upgrading the facilities and they have to still retain the atmosphere of being the oldest casino in the world.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Yatsan on May 19, 2023, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: Davidvictorson link=topic=5453120.msg62259172#msg62259172

[list
[li]Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy[/li][/list]
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.


If I am an ardent casino goer I'll definitely want to visit this place and have a bet here and pride myself as one of the casino players that played in the oldest casino and have my picture taken in front of the oldest casino and will even take a deck card for souvenir coming from the oldest casino in the world, they have to keep up modernizing it and upgrading the facilities and they have to still retain the atmosphere of being the oldest casino in the world.
If you are really into gambling then for sure you'd be interested personally making a visit in such places. But for casual players, they won't be that eager to invest time and to be entertained on such places. However if curiousity would be supported, things indeed has meaning. Visiting such places would help us realize how huge was the advancement took place in gambling industry, from the platforms to the games being offered. In terms of games, slots are of the same idea but have different combinations to come up with a win, likewise with graphical improvements especially with online platforms. On platforms, online gambling sites are emerging which gives further options to gamblers.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: retreat on May 19, 2023, 01:23:33 PM
It is very interesting to see that these casinos are still open until now and the public can still visit them to be able to play. Even though the price to play in luxury places like this is quite expensive, for those who are curious about what it's like to play in a casino that is hundreds of years old it is definitely worth it. Hopefully a casino platform like this will be preserved and it will become a historic place that shows how gambling has been a part of society for hundreds of years.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: len01 on May 19, 2023, 01:25:47 PM
This proves that gambling has existed for a long time and has become a part of human life. Perhaps, there are other lists of casinos besides that list, and we don't know because gambling has existed since immemorial. Perhaps, gambling is as old as human civilization.

And now, gambling has progressed so much that what was once a traditional casino has become a modern form where we can play gambling through online casinos. This is thanks to technological developments where we don't need to come to a physical casino but just play gambling from home.
there are still many lists of the oldest casinos in various parts of the world where gambling has indeed become an activity like for fun in ancient times and if we want to find out the history of the oldest gambling in various countries, surely every country has almost had several famous gambling names in the past, although not too famous all over the world.
well, with this new era or the development of this technology that helps gamblers to reach it, it's easier to gamble, but for me it's actually more fun to gamble directly in certain places. but unfortunately the situation is not what it used to be and now many people gamble in the open, there are lots of distractions such as prohibitions or criminals after our money.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: piebeyb on May 19, 2023, 01:40:16 PM
It is very interesting to see that these casinos are still open until now and the public can still visit them to be able to play. Even though the price to play in luxury places like this is quite expensive, for those who are curious about what it's like to play in a casino that is hundreds of years old it is definitely worth it. Hopefully a casino platform like this will be preserved and it will become a historic place that shows how gambling has been a part of society for hundreds of years.
The old casino that is included in the list of this thread will certainly be a vacation spot for gamblers because old casinos will always be a comfortable place for gamblers especially as it is a historical place, I have never been to an old casino anywhere but it looks like it would be interesting to visit to see how the casino system works they work and Is their system same as online casino.

I think the next time I'm on holiday abroad maybe I'll pay a visit to one of them and try to play a bit if it's still open and active, who knows maybe it's more fun than playing casino on your cell phone.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: dezoel on May 19, 2023, 08:20:19 PM
Wow, that is a nice list, and I didn't know that there are still some land-based casinos out there that have been operational for about 400 years or so and are still running. I'm sure those old-fashioned rich people still go to these casinos and gamble with a cigar in their hand having a good time since the younger generations don't prefer land-based casinos these days.

Cryptocurrency and online gambling have become the favorite ways of gambling for most people of this generation since it provides a lot of conveniences like being able to gamble anytime, anywhere, and quick deposit and withdrawal times, etc.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: darewaller on May 20, 2023, 07:25:41 PM
~snip~
  • Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.
^I believed this is the oldest one.
I remember this casino was filmed in the movie (Casino Royale) the 21st movie in the official James Bond film series.
I would love to visit this one of the oldest casinos which combines the excitement of gambling with the historical and cultural ambiance of Venice, making it a remarkable establishment that continues to captivate visitors from around the world. There is a question in my mind, is there a chance that they will adopt BTC as another way of payment?
Among the list yes but there might be others out there who didn't seen by the OP but 1638 is already a tough year and what is more surprising is that the casino is still here operating. Usually old casinos have closed down but if ever they survived, it's an advantage because new players will be easily attracted on them because they are more trusted than the newer ones.

I remember casino royale but I haven't watch the whole movie. This is a free advertisement for the casino for being featured in the film and aside from that, they might get a good amount of money for the movie to use the place. I don't think they will support Bitcoin anytime soon unless if BTC replace the traditional currency or become a legal tender in the whole world.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Casdinyard on May 20, 2023, 09:06:45 PM
This proves that gambling has existed for a long time and has become a part of human life. Perhaps, there are other lists of casinos besides that list, and we don't know because gambling has existed since immemorial. Perhaps, gambling is as old as human civilization.

And now, gambling has progressed so much that what was once a traditional casino has become a modern form where we can play gambling through online casinos. This is thanks to technological developments where we don't need to come to a physical casino but just play gambling from home.
There had been historical accounts of people from the early parts of our civilization gambling, or at least playing forms of games that would've become staple casino games in today's age. Baccarat for example has been in the historical texts as early as 1400s, with possibilities of it existing before strong due to the text's well-structured explanation of the game's mechanics and rules. So yeah, you can say that as soon as we started learning how to count, we also learned how to gamble in a much more structured way.
Wow, that is a nice list, and I didn't know that there are still some land-based casinos out there that have been operational for about 400 years or so and are still running. I'm sure those old-fashioned rich people still go to these casinos and gamble with a cigar in their hand having a good time since the younger generations don't prefer land-based casinos these days.

Cryptocurrency and online gambling have become the favorite ways of gambling for most people of this generation since it provides a lot of conveniences like being able to gamble anytime, anywhere, and quick deposit and withdrawal times, etc.
Pretty vivid picture you painted there my guy, really had me thinking of an Al Capone-looking old man toting a fat cigar on one hand with a set of cards in the other lmao. As for the lack of public traction nowadays, it's kind of their fault really. These boomers messed with the economy so bad most of us millenials-Gen Zs are left with Vietnam war flashbacks and so we learned how to thrift and be frugal, and to ultimately choose quality and convenience over luxury.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: qwertyup23 on May 20, 2023, 10:57:56 PM
Nice list but I think they are out of date right now in the era of Internet and online gambling and most likely they are only there for nostalgic old generation who have played in any of these casinos and I think the only casino standing the time are those from Las Vegas the capital of gambling,a city who never sleeps.The things these casinos can do to "compete" with online giants is to offer free meals and free drinks for anyone playing there which most likely they do now,as there are no other entices in order for people to be teased and to go there nowadays in our time.

Anyway they must be nice attraction to tourists visiting these cities and I would assume that they are now more of historical value rather than a lot of people to follow them and play there but anything can happen.

I do think that what separates an online vs a physical casino are the amenities and complementaries that you receive upon entering the establishment. You also get to feel the ambience and environment of a physical casino since you get to interact with everyone and experience the whole venue. Not to mention, they offer free foods and hotel suits once you get to spend an xxx amount of money during your stay.

Though this may be the case, I do agree that the era of entering physical casinos are slowly going obsolete due to the presence of thousands of online gambling website nowadays. Though there may be some people who still prefer visiting a physical casino, I still think that the dominance of online gambling websites would prevail in the near future.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: livingfree on May 21, 2023, 01:25:55 PM
I have no interest on this type of trivia but after searching for some on the list, it fascinated me.

I believe that some of them are no longer in their original form and have to be reconstructed and renovated but, they've maintained the form. It makes me wonder that someday I'd like to pay a visit to one of them not to gamble but just to have a photo of their structure.

Thanks for this OP!


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: wxa7115 on May 25, 2023, 02:38:40 AM
Nice list but I think they are out of date right now in the era of Internet and online gambling and most likely they are only there for nostalgic old generation who have played in any of these casinos and I think the only casino standing the time are those from Las Vegas the capital of gambling,a city who never sleeps.The things these casinos can do to "compete" with online giants is to offer free meals and free drinks for anyone playing there which most likely they do now,as there are no other entices in order for people to be teased and to go there nowadays in our time.

Anyway they must be nice attraction to tourists visiting these cities and I would assume that they are now more of historical value rather than a lot of people to follow them and play there but anything can happen.

I do think that what separates an online vs a physical casino are the amenities and complementaries that you receive upon entering the establishment. You also get to feel the ambience and environment of a physical casino since you get to interact with everyone and experience the whole venue. Not to mention, they offer free foods and hotel suits once you get to spend an xxx amount of money during your stay.

Though this may be the case, I do agree that the era of entering physical casinos are slowly going obsolete due to the presence of thousands of online gambling website nowadays. Though there may be some people who still prefer visiting a physical casino, I still think that the dominance of online gambling websites would prevail in the near future.
We are seeing something similar all over the world and with all kind of industries, an example of this is online shopping, years ago people liked going to the different shopping malls and spend their money there, but now people prefer the convenience of staying at their homes and buy whatever they need from the comfort of their homes.

And now gambling is going through a similar process, as instead of taking the time to go to their local casino now people prefer to gamble on their smartphones or computers.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: coin-investor on May 25, 2023, 11:21:38 PM


  • Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.

Almost 400 years and the management can still keep up, this is because they manage to keep up with what the casino players are demanding in a casino if they are one of the technically modern casinos in the world, they can still keep for the next 100 and beyond, they will not lose patron because people want their playing experience in a casino with great historical background.
I'm sure this is one of Italy's added attractions for visitors it's a must-visit for casino players who will travel to Italy.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: alegotardo on May 25, 2023, 11:40:33 PM
Ever wondered about the oldest casinos in the world? Well I know we are all about winning and avoiding losses from our bets however, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we learn about some of the oldest casinos that has been around. It will surely be of benefit to you, maybe not today but someday.

Here is a disclaimer for the moderators. I am not in anyway affiliated with the websites whose link I will be providing. I do not write for them, neither am I promoting them. And as such I will limit the quotes from them. This is just for educational purposes. I am putting it out here so that it doesn't get deleted as I have noticed with some of my posts in the past.


Now lets get to it

~snip~

Even with all the benefits of an online casino, there really is no denying that land-based casinos have a "charm" that not even the best online casino can make up for.
It is much more pleasurable to be able to sit in front of a slot machine than to click on a button that is displayed on the computer screen.
It's much more exciting to play poker at a real table, being able to see and analyze the expression of the players around you than just waiting your turn in an online game.

I'm not sure if in fact all these casinos are still in operation, but it would be great to know that some still survived all this "digitization" that we have today


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Webetcoins on May 26, 2023, 08:59:12 AM
I have no interest on this type of trivia but after searching for some on the list, it fascinated me.

I believe that some of them are no longer in their original form and have to be reconstructed and renovated but, they've maintained the form. It makes me wonder that someday I'd like to pay a visit to one of them not to gamble but just to have a photo of their structure.

Thanks for this OP!
Considering the number of years they've been around, I'm pretty sure that almost all of them have been reconstructed or renovated in some way so that they look fresh and new, but maybe they didn't play with the designs of the buildings when doing that so that the essence of the casinos stay the same that it has been for all those years or when they were first created.

If I get the chance, I would probably pay a visit to a few and sit at a table only to see which kind of people come there, I assume that people that are old but also rich will more likely prefer such vintage places.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Slow death on May 26, 2023, 09:43:09 PM
I have no interest on this type of trivia but after searching for some on the list, it fascinated me.

I believe that some of them are no longer in their original form and have to be reconstructed and renovated but, they've maintained the form. It makes me wonder that someday I'd like to pay a visit to one of them not to gamble but just to have a photo of their structure.

Thanks for this OP!
Considering the number of years they've been around, I'm pretty sure that almost all of them have been reconstructed or renovated in some way so that they look fresh and new, but maybe they didn't play with the designs of the buildings when doing that so that the essence of the casinos stay the same that it has been for all those years or when they were first created.

If I get the chance, I would probably pay a visit to a few and sit at a table only to see which kind of people come there, I assume that people that are old but also rich will more likely prefer such vintage places.

the most fascinating thing about it is that people who visit these casinos do not go there just to play, they will also have the opportunity to learn more about the history from the beginning of the creation of the casino to the present day, they will be able to know how the casinos survived many past crises such as the first and second world wars, the time of slavery and dictatorships, it is difficult to imagine a casino having many customers at that time, and the difficulties that the world faced in those times were very great, there were diseases that medicine could not cure it, there was a financial crisis so I am curious to know how these casinos managed to survive all that in the past and how the owners managed to keep the casino until today

because I imagine that the first owners died then left it as an inheritance to their descendants and their descendants continued to manage the casino until today, they did not get carried away by greed and did not sell the casino, they remained strong and continue to manage the casino until today , this is not something easy so everyone who goes to these casinos will be able to have the chance to understand all of this, I would say that these casinos are tourist spots and the rich really like to go to places like that, one of the questions I asked myself was about the issue of licenses, these old casinos were lucky to be in countries where there are more moderate governments when it comes to licenses and casinos


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: traderethereum on May 27, 2023, 07:03:26 AM
I have no interest on this type of trivia but after searching for some on the list, it fascinated me.

I believe that some of them are no longer in their original form and have to be reconstructed and renovated but, they've maintained the form. It makes me wonder that someday I'd like to pay a visit to one of them not to gamble but just to have a photo of their structure.

Thanks for this OP!
Considering the number of years they've been around, I'm pretty sure that almost all of them have been reconstructed or renovated in some way so that they look fresh and new, but maybe they didn't play with the designs of the buildings when doing that so that the essence of the casinos stay the same that it has been for all those years or when they were first created.

If I get the chance, I would probably pay a visit to a few and sit at a table only to see which kind of people come there, I assume that people that are old but also rich will more likely prefer such vintage places.
Maybe some of the old casinos are still operating today. But it is also possible that some have closed because the gambling business has developed more and people prefer online casinos.
But if those old casinos can still operate until now, it will be a long journey for the casino and anyone who has ever played gambling in the casino must have special memories.
Those who have played gambling in these old casinos will be nostalgic for the casino and remember what gambling games they used to play.
If I have the opportunity to visit one of these casinos, it will be an honor for me because I can find out about old casinos that are still operating today.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: davissgurban on November 29, 2023, 05:00:13 PM
    Ever wondered about the oldest casinos in the world? Well I know we are all about winning and avoiding losses from our bets however, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if we learn about some of the oldest casinos that has been around. It will surely be of benefit to you, maybe not today but someday.

Here is a disclaimer for the moderators. I am not in anyway affiliated with the websites whose link I will be providing. I do not write for them, neither am I promoting them. And as such I will limit the quotes from them. This is just for educational purposes. I am putting it out here so that it doesn't get deleted as I have noticed with some of my posts in the past.


Now lets get to it

  • Kurhaus of Baden-Baden -Germany
Quote
The Casino located in Baden-Baden opened in 1838. Games are mostly played at the table: roulette, poker, blackjack and baccarat. Slot machines occupy a very special position. They are in a separate area and are also accessible to people in casual clothes. Poker tournaments are held regularly and they are attended not only by Germans, but also by people who come from all over Europe.

  • Casino di Venezia - Venice, Italy
Quote
Opened in 1638, it is considered the oldest casino in the world. People still gamble here today. The casino changed its management several times and it is currently owned by the Casino di Venezia Gioco S.p.A. Even though the stately gaming house is almost 400 years old, it is one of the most technically modern casinos in the world. Over 5,000 m² of floor space await players with a large selection of slot machines and table games.

  • Casino de Spa – Spa, Belgium
Quote
It opened in 1763. In 1918, reconstruction of the Casino took place following numerous fires during the World War. Ardent Group acquired the casino in 2003. And in 2004, the first slot machines appear in the Casino. In 2014 broadcasting of the first live roulette in Belgium on 777 by the Casino de Spa. The brasserie received a larger area, and opening of a smokers area equipped with slot machines in 2017.

  • Crockfords Club in London
Quote
In 1828, a gentleman and an avid gambler named William Crockford set out to establish a luxurious club fit for diplomats, royalty, and the aristocratic elite. At that time, gambling establishments were illegal, but that did not stop Mr. Crockford. He kept being fined, but he paid the fines without a peep. The casino at Crockfords is not a typical casino. It is open daily from 12 PM to 6 AM. It has an 18th century “crème de la crème of English” feel to it with elaborate décor, old-fashioned furnishings, and warm colors. Upon stepping foot into the building, you will feel like you’ve traveled back to 1828.

I recently came across an informative resource listing the best online casinos in Italy that accept Postepay as a payment method. This compendium, available at https://www.luinonotizie.it/2023/10/30/elenco-dei-migliori-casino-online-in-italia-che-accettano-postepay/448706, can be an excellent reference for those , who are looking for reputable gaming platforms.

  • Casino Wiesbaden, Wiesbaden, Germany
Quote
The Casino Wiesbaden is reputed to be the oldest casino in Germany, having been granted a public gaming license by the Duke of Nassau-Usingen back in 1771. Daily from 11.00 o’clock (slot machine game) and 14.45 (classic game) until at least 4.00 in the morning, the guests seek and find small or big fortunes. The current gambling offerings are as comprehensive and exciting as is the history of Casino Wiesbaden. These range from classic French roulette, where all eyes are set on the track of the ivory ball once the cry "no more bets" has been heard at the up-market tables to American roulette, Black Jack, and poker.

  • Casino Spielbank Bad Homburg – Bad Homburg, Germany
Quote
Twin brothers Louis and François Blanc opened the Bad Homburg casino in 1841 and it remains one of the most celebrated in Germany almost two centuries later. Spielbank Bad Homburg was a popular gaming venue up until 1872 when gambling was prohibited in Prussia and it was forced to close its doors. Life began again in 1949 when the casino reopened, and it has gone from strength to strength since then.

Pay a visit and you can choose from 8 roulette tables, a mixture of French and American variants of the game. The four blackjack tables here include unique variations like Chance Blanc, Golden Jack and the tempting Free Bet Blackjack game. Poker tournaments and more than 140 slot games round out the gaming offerings here.

  • Casino Interlaken - Interlaken, Switzerland
Quote
It opened in 1859, two months later the Cantonal Government banned all forms of gambling. Baron Azène du Plessis – who had built and run the Kursaal at his own expense – fled Interlaken after taking this brief, unlucky gamble. It was not until the era of belle époque, when gambling at the Kursaal was allowed to a limited extent, that there was an upward turn. In 1883, Jeu des petits chevaux , a game similar to Ludo, was introduced in all casinos in Europe, including Interlaken. However opponents of gambling sprang into action and won a long referendum campaign in 1920. Gambling was finished. But in 1928, boules once again became socially acceptable for a modest stake of 2 francs. It was not until the beginning of the 1990s that the gambling prohibition in Switzerland was lifted. On 13 June 2002, the Federal Council granted the Kursaal Interlaken a Type B casino concession and hardly two months later, on 31 July, the first guests were able to indulge in gaming.


Thank you for reading . I know that the list is inexhaustive. But like I wrote earlier this is just for educational and knowledge purpose. You can do more research on your own. Maybe start with finding out the oldest casino in your locality, state/province or country. I bet there are interesting things that awaits you. Good luck.[/list]
The oldest casinos, like the Casino di Venezia in Venice, Italy, have thrived for centuries, adapting to modernity without losing their historical allure. Their blend of history and technology offers a unique experience unmatched by online platforms. Renovations may have refreshed their appearance, but the essence remains unchanged, making them appealing to visitors seeking a glimpse of the past.

Reflecting on how these casinos weathered wars, economic crises, and societal changes adds depth to their appeal. While online gambling has altered preferences, these enduring establishments hold nostalgic value for those who've frequented them.

Visiting these historic casinos isn't just about gambling; it's a journey through time, offering insight into their resilience and cultural significance. For history buffs or gambling enthusiasts, they remain a cherished and enlightening experience.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Assface16678 on November 30, 2023, 08:32:46 AM
I have no interest on this type of trivia but after searching for some on the list, it fascinated me.

I believe that some of them are no longer in their original form and have to be reconstructed and renovated but, they've maintained the form. It makes me wonder that someday I'd like to pay a visit to one of them not to gamble but just to have a photo of their structure.

Thanks for this OP!
Considering the number of years they've been around, I'm pretty sure that almost all of them have been reconstructed or renovated in some way so that they look fresh and new, but maybe they didn't play with the designs of the buildings when doing that so that the essence of the casinos stay the same that it has been for all those years or when they were first created.

If I get the chance, I would probably pay a visit to a few and sit at a table only to see which kind of people come there, I assume that people that are old but also rich will more likely prefer such vintage places.
Maybe some of the old casinos are still operating today. But it is also possible that some have closed because the gambling business has developed more and people prefer online casinos.
But if those old casinos can still operate until now, it will be a long journey for the casino and anyone who has ever played gambling in the casino must have special memories.
Those who have played gambling in these old casinos will be nostalgic for the casino and remember what gambling games they used to play.
If I have the opportunity to visit one of these casinos, it will be an honor for me because I can find out about old casinos that are still operating today.
Even if online casinos are prominent on the internet, I'm sure physical casinos will never be gone, as many people refer to playing in real time and socialising, and one of the loyal customers of those casinos are the wealthy people or rich people that much prefer to play with other gamblers; it's some kind of flexing their wealth, and in those old casinos, I'm sure in those areas people didn't stop patronising the casinos as proven that they still exist, proving that physical casinos are still strong. Even in modern casinos, there are still a lot of them because gambling will never get old or go to the limelight, as gambling is part of humans; they seek entertainment and money involved. yes there are many customers also in online casinos but its more popular for the youths. I would also love it if I could visit a local casino, but I still don't have the wealth to play and compete there, so I will still play using online casinos.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Kelward on November 30, 2023, 10:57:30 AM
Interesting to see that most of them are found in Europe, so we might say that it could be the birthplace of some of the modern games that we have right now.


It's not surprising that all the oldest casinos listed by the OP are from Europe, this is because Europe, is the place of modern technology, therefore it's not surprising that it has proper documentation. But it might not be accurate to assume that there are no other functioning casinos, as at that time, in other parts of the world. But what stands these old European casinos out is that they're still functioning till date, that is very commendable.

Come to think of it, among the seven old casinos listed by OP, three out of them are from Germany, this can be an indication that Germans were into gambling more than other European countries
 


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: Litzki1990 on November 30, 2023, 01:45:35 PM
Gambling has been around for a long time as time has changed only the style and strategy of gambling has changed but the game of gambling remains the same. Europeans already gambled. Among Europeans, the most significant gambling was found in Spain and England. In Spain and England, politics has been going on since that time and since then, the kings of those countries, including the big officials of those countries, used to gamble and there were still many casinos in those countries. Maybe if you search by the name of those casinos you will find some casinos but the casinos from 100 to 200 years ago may not be found. People now prefer to gamble with modern methods rather than analog methods.


Title: Re: Some Oldest Casinos in the World
Post by: maydna on November 30, 2023, 02:11:33 PM
Interesting to see that most of them are found in Europe, so we might say that it could be the birthplace of some of the modern games that we have right now.
It's not surprising that all the oldest casinos listed by the OP are from Europe, this is because Europe, is the place of modern technology, therefore it's not surprising that it has proper documentation. But it might not be accurate to assume that there are no other functioning casinos, as at that time, in other parts of the world. But what stands these old European casinos out is that they're still functioning till date, that is very commendable.

Come to think of it, among the seven old casinos listed by OP, three out of them are from Germany, this can be an indication that Germans were into gambling more than other European countries
Yes, that's true, but for other countries, maybe we will find traditional casinos that have different forms and gambling games. However, traditional casinos are not well recorded, so they are only known to a few people. Besides that, the traditional casino was famous for its location, so people of that era often came and gambled with their friends.

Perhaps we can look for traditional casinos in our country so that we also know that gambling is an activity that has been carried out for a long time. And yes, there may be many stories from the casinos that will make the research we do even more interesting.