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Other => Beginners & Help => Topic started by: tech30338 on September 13, 2023, 02:23:54 AM



Title: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: tech30338 on September 13, 2023, 02:23:54 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved


Title: Re: Another reason and proof that you should store your wallet in an exchange
Post by: bitmover on September 13, 2023, 02:27:00 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
l

Your post title is misleading and wrong

You wrote "store your wallet in an exchange", which is wrong and don't make sense.

You should use "store your funds in your wallet,  not in an exchange."


Title: Re: Another reason and proof that you should store your wallet in an exchange
Post by: tech30338 on September 13, 2023, 03:31:15 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
l

Your post title is misleading and wrong

You wrote "store your wallet in an exchange", which is wrong and don't make sense.

You should use "store your funds in your wallet,  not in an exchange."
sorry for the typo , I have retype the subject , thank you for correcting me , I'll try to do better next time.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: MusaMohamed on September 13, 2023, 03:42:22 AM
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
The advice is not enough.

Wallets to use should be
- Open source
- Non custody (self custody)
It is better if you use multisig wallet, cold storage wallet, air gap wallet or hardware wallet.

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421039.0)
[LIST] Open source hardware wallets. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288971.0)


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Don Pedro Dinero on September 13, 2023, 04:20:44 AM
Well, leaving aside the poor phrasing of the original title, in this particular case it seems that the hack, if it is confirmed to be a hack (as Coinex is still investigating it) is a small part of the reserves they have, and claim:

Quote
that users “will receive 100% compensation for any loss due to this breach."

Something similar also happened recently with the Stake casino case. So yes, there are many reasons not to use a CEX, the main one being privacy, but leaving your funds there is playing with fire because in this case there were only a few funds, but if there are many, the company may have problems to compensate you for the loss. I only see it as understandable to leave them there if they are funds that you trade with but many people leave them there like they leave money in their bank account.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: AprilioMP on September 13, 2023, 05:43:09 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
There are many types of wallet options for storing coins. Those with experience suggest open source wallets among the many existing wallets to use.

Hardware wallets are known to be more secure storage although I haven't used them. Users who usually make transactions regularly are more ideally suited to using a software wallet.

We have often read news about exchange hacks, so their advice against storing exchange assets is something that can be justified.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Tiger420 on September 13, 2023, 07:57:27 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved

It's always essential to prioritize the security of your cryptocurrencies. Storing them in a hardware wallet or a secure software wallet like Electrum is a wise choice to maintain full control and reduce the risk associated with centralized exchanges (CEX). Thank you for sharing the news about the Coinex hack; it serves as a reminder of the potential risks.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: BlackHatCoiner on September 13, 2023, 08:40:17 AM
You should not trust any exchange. Even the most popular are caught to doing the most horrible practices, like fractional reserve system, horrible security, market manipulation, exit scams, and generally there is lack of regulation, so anything you do can be turned against you. The only time I can find some rationale behind using such companies, is when you want to buy / sell / trade shitcoins.

You should be using no-KYC, peer-to-peer exchanges to trade fiat for bitcoin otherwise. (And obviously do self-custody with your bitcoin)


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: cryptoaddictchie on September 13, 2023, 09:00:00 AM
i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
If so then its unfortunate for them. I didnt use this exchange eversince so i dont really know how tight their security was but often seeing them at social media post.
People should only pick a topnotch exchange as we dont know when they will experience some breach like this and choose an exchange with high level security. Having funds on exchange isnt bad cause we know traders stay their money there but for own good only money or funds that can be risk should put in there.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Fiatless on September 13, 2023, 09:53:39 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
Lack of knowledge about wallets is the reason why some people keep money in exchange. The first person who introduced me to cryptocurrencies introduced me to a centralized exchange. It took personnel studies for me to know that decentralized wallets exist. Keeping funds in a crypto exchange is more riskier than keeping it in a traditional bank. They will always give you reasons why exchanges are important but nothing is as good as having full control over your finances. CoinEx has claimed that the funds lost from this hack will not affect customers' deposits because the funds they have in their reserves can compensate all the victims.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Dunamisx on September 13, 2023, 09:55:49 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.

You don't have to wait till any of these happen to your bitcoin abd you loose everything before you make a step to make use of the best way to stay safe, considering security and privacy here are the best recommendations you can have as means to store your bitcoin for your safety.

Here are the recommendations for wallets security and privacy
Bitcoin Core (https://bitcoincore.org/en/download/)
Passport (https://foundationdevices.com/passport/)
Electrum (https://electrum.org/)
Sparrow (https://sparrowwallet.com/) Bluewallet (https://bluewallet.io/)
 Samourai Wallet (https://edubourse.com/en/crypto-monnaie/wallet/samourai-wallet-avis/#:~:text=Samourai%20Wallet%20is%20the%20most,one%20and%20the%20same%20wallet.)

Using an exchange is not safe enough for you except you only uses such to exchange your coins and return your capital or assets back to you personal wallet, you also have to learn how to keep your private keys safe.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: DeathAngel on September 13, 2023, 10:54:41 AM
You would think after so many hacks & untrustworthy actions by third party custodians, that people would no longer store their crypto anywhere other than a device or seed, paper wallet etc that is only controlled or accessible by them.
Sadly you can not force people to take the reasonable precautions to avoid this type of thing. It will keep happening whilst people continue to be dumb enough to leave their coins/tokens on exchanges.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: dr.hopkins on September 13, 2023, 11:34:43 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
Absolutely agree with you on the importance of securing our assets! I've been using XGo, and one feature that really stands out is XGoID. It simplifies managing multiple wallet addresses into one easy-to-use identifier. This adds an extra layer of convenience and security to my crypto holdings.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: HONDACD125 on September 13, 2023, 12:01:39 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.


Hardware wallet is best option for holding long term coins.I don't understand how people still believe to hold coins in the cex after FTX and other exchanges incident.Cex is only useful for fast trading and other p2p use.I withdrawn all fund to the hardware after FTX incident and hope my fund is secure even if any exchange collapse.

Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved

This is not the first time of centralized exchange hack. before coinex many big exchanges Binance, Kucoin , upbit and hotbit hacked. I remembered only hotbit exchange because that time I hold some fund there. Here is list of big exchanges hacked

1: Mt. Gox (2011) $8.75m
second time(2014) $615m

2: KuCoin (2020) $281m

3: Upbit (2019) $45m

4: BINANCE (2019)$40m

5: Bitfinex (2016) $60m

Data taken from source: https://crystalblockchain.com/articles/the-10-biggest-crypto-exchange-hacks-in-history/


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Kamasylvia on September 13, 2023, 12:07:13 PM
Its just wrong on first place , why would you store your valuable asset on exchange , most exhanger are centralized anyways so its not make any sense that you would store an Unregulated asset onto it .

doesnt matter how convenient and safe , no one really knows when security breach and other something goes wrong happen. The only right answer was ur own wallet , you get your own private key and full access and control on your own asset .


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Taskford on September 13, 2023, 12:11:25 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved

Don't stress yourself about this since you can do simple actions with that.

Just put the amount which you can afford to lose if you trade regularly transferring your balances on daily basis might cause you a lot since transaction fees change and you might pay expensive if you do your daily activity.
But if you are not a regular trader then its fine to withdraw since there's no problem holding your balance on your personal wallet for long time and you can make sure its stored on safe place.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Issa56 on September 13, 2023, 02:33:58 PM
Its just wrong on first place , why would you store your valuable asset on exchange ,
Lots of people are always leaving their coins on exchanges, especially newbies. I can even say a higher percentage of people are leaving their coins on exchanges, just a small percentage are always storing their coins on a non-custodial wallet. I think some people don't just know the risk of leaving their coins on exchanges, that's why they don't care about sending them out after buying them on exchanges. If a coin is left on an exchange, if anything happens to the exchange, then the coin that is in the exchange will go down with the exchange. Just imagine you are losing all your bitcoin just because an exchange has been hacked.

doesnt matter how convenient and safe , no one really knows when security breach and other something goes wrong happen. The only right answer was ur own wallet , you get your own private key and full access and control on your own asset .
Leaving a coin on an exchange is really convenient because it can be easily accessible, but we all know it's not safe, you can easily lose your coin, so why not just get a non-custodial and protect your coin? You don't have to allow anyone to control your money for you, it's just better to have full control of your coin.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: $crypto$ on September 13, 2023, 04:16:23 PM
Exchanges for storing assets, will not be safe at any time. The risk of the exchange being hacked or going bankrupt is what makes it complicated to ask for your funds there.

If you want to use the exchange, use it for the short term or for your trading activities that are looking for profit there, if you have done that then withdraw it back to your wallet with your own custody.

If you are still unsure about hot wallets, then use hardware wallets to be much safer. My suggestion is Trezor.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: passwordnow on September 13, 2023, 04:48:13 PM
While there's already a thread about this news: Coinex hacked, $54M stolen (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5466540.0)
This is proven that people shouldn't keep their funds in exchanges but if you do, see to it that the amount you're keeping is an amount that you won't mind losing. Aside from hacking, people who are working for an exchange that has the ability to see details behind like how much they've got for their hot wallets can also be part of an inside job where they'll have no mercy to drain users fund.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Ever-young on September 13, 2023, 05:05:36 PM
Finds it’s a little difficult to understand what you are entirely saying base on the grammar arrangement. Base on what I understood your entire content is just Warner users to be careful with centralized platforms, they should mind the kind of money they keep with them and how long those money are kept on those centralized sites using the hack of coinex to remind us about the danger of keeping funds in an exchange. Well thank you for the reminder, every with the warning which is being spread across the forum and other places regarding the way and manner user can protect their funds from hack, it still appear that most people are too lazy to take those warnings serious, it’s hard for them to just see their self being in full control over their own wealth, they trust third party to safe keep their funds for them more than they can do it them self.

With the amount of hack which we have been reading and hearing about recently, their has always been victims of many kinds, if the hack don’t happen we never we know how much and who actually have their coin stock in an exchange account, is it that those people who do this are not aware of the risk, is is it as a result of them always having an active order? Because if not for a day to day trading and watching of some favorite coins to know when to enter and when not to enter and to save one the fee of withdrawing and depositing all the time when you want to to trade, I don’t see any reason why we should leave our coins in an exchange account. Another hard way have been used to remind users of the danger which exchanges holds.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Coyster on September 13, 2023, 05:32:39 PM
Keeping funds in a crypto exchange is more riskier than keeping it in a traditional bank.
Exactly, and i second that. Of course banks do not get hacked as easily as centralized exchanges, they are much more secured, and not only that, the money you keep in the bank is insured, at least up to a certain amount. Thus even if the bank fails, you wouldn't lose everything you have kept with them, as you'd be paid back some, based on the amount that's insured.

Being your own bank comes with certain responsibilities that quite a lot of people are not ready to take, so instead of them being their own bank, they push that responsibility to centralized exchanges.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: examplens on September 13, 2023, 06:52:10 PM
If we talk about the loss of coins, because someone was hacked, it cannot only refer to exchanges. Yes, the most frequent and noisy hacks happened on exchanges, some real hacks, some faked by "victims".
However, such things can also happen in personal wallets, so in such guides, I would not be exclusive only to exchanges.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Mayor of ogba on September 13, 2023, 07:23:10 PM
Storing your Bitcoin in a centralized exchange is never a good option because anything that happens to the funds of the exchange will make you lose your money. When you want to store your Bitcoin you can use a noncustodial wallet like Electrum wallet where you will have full responsibility for your Bitcoin and also learn to back up your seed phrase and private key on USB or paper and keep it in a safe place. You can keep a little Bitcoin in a centralized exchange for running your day-to-day life.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: DVlog on September 13, 2023, 07:37:21 PM
Exchange words to describe its meaning. An exchange is a platform to transfer your assets with one another with security. It's a middleman that helps you to trade nothing more. Exchange is not for storing your assets. As long as your funds are in exchange you will not be in full control. Exchange can be hacked, stop withdrawals, and do other activities to seize your assets. So using a non-custodial open source wallet is advisable to store your assets that give top-notch protection.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Odohu on September 13, 2023, 08:44:17 PM
Hacks of centralized exchanges is no longer a new thing. Anyone who did not know what happened to MtGox would have known what happened to FTX. Anyone who is opportune to be in this forum but still store funds in centralized exchanges deserve whatever happens to those funds.

A lot of experienced guys have done justice to this topic; suggesting different wallets that are safe and easy to use. Those suggestions are not jokes because the pain of loosing one's fund to hack excruciating. 


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: sokani on September 13, 2023, 09:56:04 PM
<snip>
Funds safety is summarized in this phrase "not your keys, not your coins". Never trust a centralized exchange with the safekeeping of your funds as many things could go wrong. The exchange could be hacked, it could go bankrupt or your assets could be freezed as a result of one reason or the other. There have been many cases of these ugly occurrences in the past and sadly people are still making the same costly mistakes. CoinEx hack is not going to be the last, there's always going to be another exchange that will fall prey to hackers, the reputable exchanges are not exempted from the list either. Self custody is the best; get a hardware wallet or a good open source wallet and store your funds.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: CryptopreneurBrainboss on September 13, 2023, 11:15:20 PM
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.

Same story we have been hearing since cryptocurrency exchange went mainstream, most exchange aren't worthy of been used because they have zero security features and aren't different from those that have been compromised in the past. Most exchanges just copy codes from other exchange and use for their platforms which means if the copied platforms got exploited, there's every tendency that they'll be exploited as well. Keeping coins on exchanges aren't not wise, this isn't going to be the first time an exchange is getting exploited and it won't be the last because hackers are constantly improviny their skills to steal and the exchanges aren't doing things necessary to keep their platforms safe (because there isn't much they can do since they're already using a centralized server).

Its just wrong on first place , why would you store your valuable asset on exchange , most exhanger are centralized anyways so its not make any sense that you would store an Unregulated asset onto it . doesnt matter how convenient and safe , no one really knows when security breach and other something goes wrong happen. The only right answer was ur own wallet , you get your own private key and full access and control on your own asset .

Both the decentralized exchange aren't recommend to store coins on their platforms. You don't have to store coins on exchanges because most of them are centralized, you don't do that because it isn't safe and exchanges has their own services that they offer which acting as a wallet isn't one of them. Your coins should be store on a wallet that gives you full control. We should be the ones protecting our coins so we can hold ourselves responsible for anything that happens to them and not be in a situation were you lose your coins because of others mistakes. Centralized exchange are always liable to attack because they're perfect target to hackers.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Odusko on September 13, 2023, 11:26:50 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like a hardware wallet etc.
By now, most crypto investors should know better the risk associated with non-custodial wallets and how stupid it sounds to hold huge some of money in an exchange wallet, This is the most pathetic practice ever and anyone who indulges in such moves has the right to complain if anything goes wrong on those exchanges, in recent time, there have been a lot of scary news around exchange and other services providers like casino who have been hacked and this raised a lot of concern, and also the awareness to hold your coins in your wallet and not on an exchange.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: dansus021 on September 14, 2023, 02:28:06 AM
I also hear the news about the CoinEx now according to rekt.news they got rekt across thirteen chains with whooping 54 million usd from their hot wallet and now CoinEx assures users that the missing coins make up “just a very small portion of CoinEx’s total asset”, and that losses will be covered. Deposits and withdrawals are currently suspended. - https://rekt.news/coinex-rekt/

What crazy mess yes we should keep our LONG TERM HODLLL coin in wallet not in an exchange, but worth the mention is how the hacker can manage all the private key from dozen ton of chain. Something fishy is going on here


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Eureka_07 on September 14, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
<snip>
It is indeed a bad habit to store funds on an exchange for an extended period. When actively trading, you have more time to move your funds before such hacking incidents occur. However, there are no exceptions if the exchange itself is hacked. Regardless of how secure your account is, it won't matter if the exchange itself falls victim to a hack. This is why choosing reputable and reliable exchanges is crucial.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: cafter on September 14, 2023, 01:46:44 PM
it will be better to store your crypto in self custody wallet or hardware wallet if the funds are big. I am not very concerned about using CEX to store crypto. because i mostly trade with very small amount so i don't worry about it, and if i tried to store in self custody wallet it will eat my half of the crypto in transaction fees.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Bobrox on September 14, 2023, 02:10:07 PM
Depend on trader or investor typical for holding assets in wallet not in exchange account, for short term trader with scalping in daily day not profitable for holding assets or fund in wallet because need time and paying fees every transaction sending assets. Difference with position as long term holding investment most secure when saving fund in wallet not recommended use CEX exchange for saving funds.
We are facing with many exchange have been scam and not guarantee with refund our assets, although several exchange like MTGox ever confirmed will refund user assets until right now they not refund yet. Better use exchange with good reputation for holding assets but as short term trader move your profit assets to exchange wallet and fund in exchange as capital for trading only not for long term holding.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Solosanz on September 14, 2023, 02:16:23 PM
Every centralized sites are prone to get hacked, no need to repeating this exchange get hacked, this lending site get hacked, this casino get hacked etc. So many users already advising to use non custodial wallet to hold your coins and never use centralized site, I believe every users already know it.

However some users will argue if leaving coins in exchange isn't bad as long as they're traders, so well they already understand the risk.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Cookdata on September 14, 2023, 02:48:06 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news : https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved

First, you need to edit your post, so many errors and the link to your source is not in clickable format as did in my quoted post. Again, you added that it didn't happen to "our", the 'our exchange', do you have an exchange or you are making your report in active voice?

There is nothing like the first time, a crime is a crime and that is not supposed to happen in the first place, don't leave your coins on any exchange, it is as simple as that. You should avoid centralized exchange like a plaque, they are not to be hack and if other centralized exchanges continue to operate like this, expect more hacks from the future, it is unavoidable but you can be part of the people who don't want use such kind of exchanges, always remember not your keys not your coins.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Abu-Naim on September 14, 2023, 03:25:37 PM
While there's already a thread about this news: Coinex hacked, $54M stolen (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5466540.0)
This is proven that people shouldn't keep their funds in exchanges but if you do, see to it that the amount you're keeping is an amount that you won't mind losing. Aside from hacking, people who are working for an exchange that has the ability to see details behind like how much they've got for their hot wallets can also be part of an inside job where they'll have no mercy to drain users fund.
There have been so much threads created that kick against the use of Centralized Exchanges, but people seems to ignore all the thread is saying until they fall victim of one.

Trading is good in Centralized Exchanges but leaving our coin in the exchanges is the risk because no one knows when the security will be bridged and no one is certain if they will be refunded if the exchange is hacked.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Coyster on September 14, 2023, 04:15:36 PM
and now CoinEx assures users that the missing coins make up “just a very small portion of CoinEx’s total asset”, and that losses will be covered.
That is what they always say, basically because they don't want their users to panic, but the truth is that when the process starts, it could take as long as possible without the victims getting their compensation or a refund. CoinEx would definitely struggle to offer any compensation here, even though they posted that what was lost is only a "small amount". I don't take what they say seriously anyway, because anybody can check what their daily trading volume was before this incident, as well as what their 'reserves' held, it is obvious that the amount lost is substantial to CoinEx and what they are saying is bullshit. If you had coins in CoinEx, i'm afraid it is going to be a long and frustrating process, which might not yield anything positive.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: michellee on September 14, 2023, 05:05:34 PM
While there's already a thread about this news: Coinex hacked, $54M stolen (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5466540.0)
This is proven that people shouldn't keep their funds in exchanges but if you do, see to it that the amount you're keeping is an amount that you won't mind losing. Aside from hacking, people who are working for an exchange that has the ability to see details behind like how much they've got for their hot wallets can also be part of an inside job where they'll have no mercy to drain users fund.
There have been so much threads created that kick against the use of Centralized Exchanges, but people seems to ignore all the thread is saying until they fall victim of one.

Trading is good in Centralized Exchanges but leaving our coin in the exchanges is the risk because no one knows when the security will be bridged and no one is certain if they will be refunded if the exchange is hacked.
Most people think storing their assets on the exchange will be safe. They may not have heard the news of the hack or they may have known about it but kept their assets on the exchange. Well, each person must have their own reasons and we cannot force what we suggest on them.

And even if they have implemented all the security recommended by the exchange, it still will not guarantee that the assets can be protected safely. They must remember that nothing is 100% safe on the internet, so they must know and protect it and be responsible for their assets.

But if they can accept all the risks that could occur, they can still keep their assets there. Maybe they think that if a pump comes to one or more of their coins, they can immediately take action by selling them. But that's up to them.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: nakamura12 on September 14, 2023, 05:16:37 PM
I hate to explain this but if you didn't know there's a quote saying "NOT YOUR KEYS NOT YOUR COIN" which already an explanation that tells you when you store a crypto where you don't have the access to the wallet itself but only use an account so you can take action like send/doing transaction which means it is custodial and custodial means someone is keeping it for you instead of doing it yourself. I agree with some post here that your advice is not complete and choosing wallet is not as easy or fast as you may think. There are precautions on choosing wallets and first of it is a wallet that is open source which means the source code of the wallet is available to public unlike closed source which it isn't public or only the creator/team or the provider of the wallet knows it hence the name. It is better to be safe than sorry. Don't wait for bad situations before using non-custodial wallet that is open source if you can't afford to pay for a wallet that is more secured.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: SamReomo on September 14, 2023, 06:24:25 PM
That's a shocking news and we have heard such shocking news many times before but still some people really don't understand the importance of having their own personal wallets instead of relying on those centralized exchanges custodial wallets.

The hackers always try to find a flaw in exchanges and whenever they successfully get one the hack most of the coins from the vulnerable exchanges. Sometimes exchanges just made up a story of such hacks and steal coins of the users themselves. That's why it's always better to store your coins in your own software wallets like Electrum, and make those wallets cold ones by disconnecting them from internet.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: darkangel11 on September 14, 2023, 07:20:46 PM
It's not really big news for people who are in the space for a few years. Literally every year there's an exchange getting hacked or someone in there decides to close shop and run away with the money.
Maybe some of you remember Trace Mayer who was asking people to take their bitcoin from exchanges years ago and people still get scammed till this day.
Keep fighting the good fight people and telling others to self-custody. It's possible we'll be able to save some of them.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: BitcoinPanther on September 14, 2023, 07:36:06 PM
The problem with people is that they are lazy researching how to secure their wallet after they create it.  They are too lazy to move their funds from exchanges to their own non-custodial wallet and they do not want to take the responsibility for their coins thinking that exchanges will take responsibility when it is hacked.  Little that they know that not all exchanges take responsibility when the fund of their client was hacked.  Aside from that exchanges are created not to be a stash to store our coins but rather it is a platform where we do our trade. 

So it is better not to leave our funds when we are done with our trading.  After all once our coins is in an exchange, we lost the full ownership of the coins since exchanges can have the 100% access to our coins and can do whatever they decided on it and even block our account and confiscate our funds.  Worst, if the exchange gone rouge, they can even run away with it scamming their client.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Dr.Bitcoin_Strange on September 14, 2023, 09:24:23 PM
This has been talked about over and over again on the forum and some LB, and I think that many people should already be aware of the warning, "Not your key, not your coin." Although some people are always reluctant to follow instructions, this is the reason why some investors still keep their money on centralized exchanges and end up losing their funds if there is a hack incident with the exchange they store their money on. Also, I think that some people outside the forum don't really know the risk of storing their assets on CEX, so I think we should always warn some cryptocurrency enthusiasts outside the forum. In the past, I have stored my assets on CEX, but after I realized the risk involved, I stopped saving and staking on cex.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Peanutswar on September 14, 2023, 11:23:30 PM
If you are an active trader in their platform it's just okay to make less hassle with the deposit again and again repetitively of course there's a fee but using an exchange as a wallet is not the most ideal because first you are not the owner of your money you don't have the fully authorization still have limitations and next you don't have the private keys in case there's some issue occur you cannot pull out your funds immediately.
There's a lot of issue with the exchange like hacking, scams and etc. So if you don't use your funds and want just to store it ideal to use cold or hot wallet.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: dansus021 on September 15, 2023, 01:09:58 AM
and now CoinEx assures users that the missing coins make up “just a very small portion of CoinEx’s total asset”, and that losses will be covered.
That is what they always say, basically because they don't want their users to panic, but the truth is that when the process starts, it could take as long as possible without the victims getting their compensation or a refund. CoinEx would definitely struggle to offer any compensation here, even though they posted that what was lost is only a "small amount". I don't take what they say seriously anyway, because anybody can check what their daily trading volume was before this incident, as well as what their 'reserves' held, it is obvious that the amount lost is substantial to CoinEx and what they are saying is bullshit. If you had coins in CoinEx, i'm afraid it is going to be a long and frustrating process, which might not yield anything positive.

Hahahaha so true and I'm not a CoinEx user but I already know how long this is going to take place.
Things that I still didnt believe is how the hacker could manage steal all the private key from multiple different chain. There is crazy skill here on this an insider job.

Lasly they still insist that gonna repay all customer using backup money from their cold wallet - https://announcement.coinex.com/hc/en-us/articles/19187420867348-Latest-Progress-of-the-Hacking-Attack-on-Sep-12-2023-Updated-on-Sep-14-

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/15/6Tvwj.png


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: reagansimms on September 15, 2023, 02:58:13 AM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time,
Who can guarantee that the same incident will not happen on the exchange where you store funds. You gave Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange, but without realizing it you have told us you still keep funds in the exchange (based on what you wrote in the piece of sentence I quoted).

There are so many different wallets available to store Bitcoins, so why store them on an Exchange. Incident after incident continues to occur, such as exchange hacks which result in huge losses for the exchange and users who store their funds there, but every time there is a new case there are always users who also lose their funds. This incident needs to be spread widely in order to remind each other how dangerous it is to store funds on an exchange, the safest place to store funds is a wallet where you can control the private key.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Note3 on September 15, 2023, 03:21:31 AM
Hacking is often not the work of actual hackers, there are insiders involved or also used as an excuse to make their business look clean from dirty employees.

The exchange is only a place to exchange or trade, if it is used to store coins there, those who do it already use it not according to its designation, it could be because they are lazy to learn about wallet security so they prefer a simple one, which they will pay dearly for by losing their assets there.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Z390 on September 15, 2023, 08:06:04 AM
Not all safe wallet are safe, not all hardware wallets are safe.

There are different types of crypto wallet and not knowing the difference can cost you some money, some hardware wallets are closed source, and you can still lose money using them, some wallets are custodial, the developers have access to your fund, and they can decide to steal them anytime.

You need to learn and read about the differences between crypto wallets, right now Trezor is safer than a Ledger hardware wallet, and for others, it's better to use an Electrum wallet, if you are into altcoins, find an open-source wallet to use.

When I read about the CoinEX hack I instantly withdrew all my tokens from BKEX and MEXC, exchanges because they could be a victim too, I don't like leaving my assets on exchanges but I am using these to gather some altcoins before moving out due to withdrawal fee.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Rockstarguy on September 15, 2023, 01:36:00 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
This is not new about exchange,  it is a common issue that occurs with an exchange that is why exchange should never be a wallet to hodl  because  it has never been reliable from experience to see an exchange as a comfortable place to bitcoin,  with the usual network problems exchange always have  that makes users unable to have access to their money, with this Challenge that occurs all time it is very risky to leave money in exchange because anything can happen.  Their are some exchange I know that Normally go showdown for hours all in the name of maintenance,  this is how exchange in the past got showdown and till now .


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Xal0lex on September 17, 2023, 06:48:09 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved


It is always dangerous to store your money somewhere. It does not matter whether it is a centralized or decentralized service. People lose money in decentralized services more often than in centralized ones. Smart contracts are not famous for their security and that is why almost every day there are hacks of various protocols. Storing money on exchanges, staking, providing liquidity in decentralized pools, interacting with smart contracts, all of these are dangerous environments for your funds. Centralized exchanges are just a small part of the dangerous cryptocurrency sector.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Mr.suevie on September 17, 2023, 09:35:51 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
The major cause why people actually fall victims to such cases it's because CEX are way more popular than DEX and there is also the human nature of arrogance to blame because if you are truly interested in Bitcoin you would have known that the major purpose of having Bitcoin or it's creation was  to avoid third party control involvement in your financial life then why would you choose to actually save your money in a centralized exchange which operate like the government.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: JunaidAzizi on September 18, 2023, 03:18:03 PM
Although this has not happen to our exchange where we put our funds for a long time, this should prove that its not safe to be there for months or years, you have to secure your money, or tokens/coins to your hardware wallet, or electrum wallet etc since you have full control unlike CEX.
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.


Coinex claims that the hacking was done due to the phishing site. The exchange does not tell about whether they recover the loss or not, but this is a reminder for those who store their fund in the exchange. This hacking shows that even a reputable exchange can be hacked, it is not safe for the users to store their funds in the exchange besides storing their funds in their wallet.

Quote
this is the link of the news :https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-crypto-exchange-suspected-hacked-crypto-moved
Also, Op you gave a link for the verification but it does not work You made a small mistake in it. Please give a space between : and http so it will be good and yeah it will be start working.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Rikafip on September 18, 2023, 03:30:43 PM
Coinex claims that the hacking was done due to the phishing site.
Hm, I can't find the source of that info so can you maybe share it? All that I could find is Coinex saying that private key of their hot wallet got leaked but they don't explain in detail how exactly that happened.


This hacking shows that even a reputable exchange can be hacked, it is not safe for the users to store their funds in the exchange besides storing their funds in their wallet.
While I do agree that even the most repuatble exchanges can get hacked (and they do) I don't think that Coinex falls into that group. Addiitonal problem is that they are a relatively small exvchange so hack of $70M is not somehing that they can sort out easily and might even endanger the existence of the exchange.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Queentoshi on September 18, 2023, 04:27:58 PM
so to be safe store your bitcoin and other coins to safe wallet, like hardware wallet etc.
The advice is not enough.
There is also the need to know how to keep your wallet safe from thieves who are not online. Even if it is a Hardware wallet you use, It can still be stolen and your bitcoins lost. Your attitude offline is also a factor that will determine the safety of your bitcoins if stored in a hardware wallet or on a device in a safe wallet. If you are garrulous, you need to watch the habit, so you do not go about talking about your bitcoin holding when and where it is not important.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: qwertyup23 on September 18, 2023, 05:29:54 PM
You should not trust any exchange. Even the most popular are caught to doing the most horrible practices, like fractional reserve system, horrible security, market manipulation, exit scams, and generally there is lack of regulation, so anything you do can be turned against you. The only time I can find some rationale behind using such companies, is when you want to buy / sell / trade shitcoins.

You should be using no-KYC, peer-to-peer exchanges to trade fiat for bitcoin otherwise. (And obviously do self-custody with your bitcoin)

While I still recommend the use of an exchange if your country has one, for maximum security, it is still definitely better to have your own hardware wallet to store your cryptocurrencies.

The reason on why I still use an exchange to keep my BTCs is due to its convenience. Our country, the Philippines, has a designated local exchange in which the government recognizes. With this, I can easily convert my BTCs to our local currency in order to pay our bills, etc. The only catch is, the requirements for a person to access the exchange are tons of KYC documents (including bank statements and financials, etc.) in order to maximize its benefits.

While this may be the case, having a hardware wallet in order to store your funds for long-term investment is still the best solution and method up to this date.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: GeorgeJohn on September 18, 2023, 05:48:29 PM
So many of us has already know the implications of keeping bitcoin or any other coin in exchange, the implications or disadvantages of it, is that the exchange can be hacked and they may made away with your coins, that is while is not encouraging to keep your coin in exchange, let me use binance as illustrations, because sometimes in the forum I have come across of a thread binance was been discussed about group of people that hacked the exchange and it affected everyone who their coin were in the custody of binance and binance as exchange did not repay everyone in same value of the coin that was been displaced in their exchange, because the did not recover all the coins, its better as someone who wants to invest in bitcoin to use a custodial wallet to save its coins.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Mpamaegbu on September 19, 2023, 12:24:49 PM
Earlier there is a news that Coinex have been hack, where the hacker transfer and drain the wallet, with ETH, Polygon, Tron etc, i think this is the first time this exchange has been hack, i say i have coins there but no value, but if you have lots of eth and others thats is a major concern, since we don't know if they can refund the loses.
I know it's not a wise thing to hodl coins on an exchange, especially for the traders amongst us. It's for the ease and convince in assessing them that make traders and investors leave them on exchanges. When we take out time to lampoon those who fall victim to exchange hacks, we should also state it clearly that even personal wallets do also get hacked. So, there's no fool proof to all of this. Just caution, that's what should be the watch word in this crypto space. Since this is the first hack Coinex is experiencing, I don't think it will batter its imagine that badly. It will shake it off.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: armanda90 on September 19, 2023, 12:59:36 PM
Coinex claims that the hacking was done due to the phishing site. The exchange does not tell about whether they recover the loss or not, but this is a reminder for those who store their fund in the exchange. This hacking shows that even a reputable exchange can be hacked, it is not safe for the users to store their funds in the exchange besides storing their funds in their wallet.
Have been common reason with all exchange market when trying scam will give reason their exchange are hacking and can't guarantee with user or member assets will refund, seems the only FTX never give reason about their exchange have been hack before scamming their member. Before Coinex I think MtGox ever hacked and until right now the user assets not refund yet although hacker have been under arrest and they have got back their bitcoin assets.
After FTX crashing seems not any new exchange have been hacked and sees secure for holding assets in exchange market although saving in wallet most recommended. Can't predicting with reputable exchange trusted will exist until how long depend with FTX is most trusted exchange and finally become scam without refund the user assets.


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: icalical on September 19, 2023, 01:56:24 PM
Yeah, never let our coin stay in the exchange wallet for too long, only when we want to exchange it to another coin or to fiat. Only use non-custodial wallet to store our fund in a long run. But all that being said, in this particular case, at least CoinEx said that they will compensate the hacked fund entirely, let's just hope they will actually do that, https://cointelegraph.com/news/coinex-compromised-private-keys-behind-70-million-hack


Title: Re: Another reason and proof to keep funds in your wallet not in an exchange
Post by: Razmirraz on September 19, 2023, 03:00:30 PM
This message has been conveyed more than 10 times in forum, it is very common to hear in forums "not your keys, not your crypto". Storing assets on an exchange is not recommended for anyone working in the crypto field because there have been many cases of losses by Exchange users that have occurred before. The case that occurred with FTX is enough of a lesson for anyone working in the crypto field not to entrust their assets stored on the Exchange. Other cases have also occurred, such as exchange hacking which resulted in many losses experienced by exchange users.

Previously @theymos had also conveyed this message to all Bitcointalk forum users, you can find the thread here. Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421039.msg61293646#msg61293646)