Bitcoin Forum

This topic is a translation of a  topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5467180.msg62863317#msg62863317), created by myself in Russian Local Board. I think it would be interesting to discuss it in general thread as well.

Lately I’ve been reading some discussions and come across a very wide-spread idea that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general are the prerogative of people with a mathematical and even technological “mindset.” That cryptocurrencies are, first of all, a technology based on calculations, codes and programs. And it is precisely from this side that Bitcoin is of interest.

For a person like me who has received a humanitarian, namely philosophical, education, and who is not exactly far from technological “insides”, but who rather does not find any special interest in this issues, the above-described position seems one-sided and does not take into account the enormous advantage that humanitarian standpoint allows us to see in Bitcoin. And this is the path to freedom.

Freedom is not only one of the philosophical categories, but also the highest individual value. The implementation of personal potential is impossible without freedom. The ancient Greeks generally associated freedom with immortality. For immortality, it is extremely necessary to live to realize one’s own plans and ideas, otherwise a person becomes only a means for fulfilling someone else’s will. Not being able to leave your own unique imprint on your actions and thoughts means existential defeat and guilt for free citizens.

Nowadays, the realization of freedom is inseparably linked with financial opportunities. And we are talking not only about their utilitarian properties, but also about money as a means of influence and control. First of all, over your own life.

Existence and even stability of income does not really mean financial freedom. If an income depends on another person, company, corporation, state, this puts the recipient in a dependent position. No matter how beautifully the importance and value of a particular person in the system is presented, it is always worth remembering that the elements in the system are interchangeable. Therefore, no high position, professional length or experience is a guarantee that a person will be provided for his entire life. Moreover, being inside the system limits and sometimes completely destroys his actual freedom.

So, what does humanitarian education have to do with it? Despite the fact that it is precisely this matter that makes it possible to see and realise these things. Of course, such conclusions can be reached in other, more experienced ways, but they are usually longer and more painful. Whereas theory (from ancient Greek - research, consideration) allows one to arrive at this in an a priori way.

Back to Bitcoin. How many people who understand the technical features of cryptocurrencies decide to “sell” this knowledge by choosing to work for companies or states? How many of them continue to live from salary to salary and believe that stability of income is the greatest happiness, continuing to have a very ordinary existence? Judging by what is generally written on the forum - one of the most advanced meeting places for crypto lovers - these are the majority. I think they should ask themselves whether their education (or self-education) can really change their lives for the better and make them different from the lives of the other 8 billion people. I believe, we all need to periodically ask this question so as not to live a boring, monotonous, stereotyped life.

Cryptocurrencies allow you to earn money without “working” in the usual sense of the word. They allow you not to depend on employer, but to take responsibility for your own actions, successes and failures. They allow you to choose not from a given range of possibilities, but to implement your own, while accepting the consequences. And philosophers who lived several centuries ago help to arrive at all this, although at first glance it may seem that neither they themselves nor their ideas have anything to do with such a technological miracle as cryptocurrencies.

I would like to hear opinion of users regarding the resonance of this topic in their own lives and observations, if there is one and is of interest for discussion.
Perhaps you have examples of philosophers or writers who influenced the formation of your own ideas about financial freedom that you would like to share and discuss.

I don't understand what you mean by saying that bitcoin can make us make money without working. I think it's difficult if we only depend on bitcoin, especially if we only hold bitcoin. Bitcoin trading is also difficult and cannot guarantee that we will always make a profit every day even if it is done by a professional. Can you explain more about making money from bitcoin without working?

Maybe we can make money from this forum, but what is clear is that we work for campaign managers and it's almost the same as working anywhere else.

Yes, I agree that freedom is an expensive value, but the freedom that philosophers mean is usually freedom for oneself and has nothing to do with money, because usually philosophers are idealists and don't see money as something important in this world. Like Thales who drank poison to maintain his idealism

Sometimes those of us who chase money or wealth are considered capitalists and individualists because we don't prioritize other people. Humanity is not about money but about relationships with humans, such as socialism which prioritizes togetherness and anarchy which does not want to be led by other people.

I quite agree with Hegel, where all theses must have an antithesis. Likewise, every philosopher must have different and sometimes contradictory thoughts, but even though their thoughts are different, the value of idealism will remain the same.

In my opinion, working is about working for someone else. Under someone else`s leadership. While bitcoin can provide you with the opportunity to self-work, when you depend only on your own skills, creativity and opportunities. Not when someone tells you what, when and how to do something. We can hold bitcoin, we can invest in other projects, we can do trading. Of course, it won't be successful every time you do it. But it can liberate you from the necessity of being an employee.



Philosophers are really differ from one another, idealist were only a small part of them. Mostly they didn't deny the idea of money being necessary for a productive life. A lot of them were very wealthy and this fact itself let them become philosophers, because they simply didn't have to think about everyday surviving.

Socrates drank poison, Cicuta, not Thales. And he did it not to maintain his idealism, but just because he didn't see any reason to become an exile, because for ancient greek it was the worst scenario.


In modern world money could be the tool which allows you not to be led by others. Even by some governments. I only consider money as a tool to become as much free as it is possible right now. Starting from the possibility not to attend a job from 9 till 17.

Despite you've mention "working" in usual sense of vast majority, but I still disagree since working isn't only can be define like that. When you buy or you sell your coins, both of them are activity and you're still work. It can be said not "working", if you have a program to automatically buy and sell it.


So... are you a fulltime trader?

I'd say for vast majority, it's better to have a primary job (either work under someone or freelance) and use Bitcoin as a store of value.

I read somewhere that the account that gets the highest merit points here and has good knowledge of the technical aspects of Bitcoin is a doctor. I have friends from departments and fields not related to computers, such as civil or medical engineering, or even doctors and lawyers who have a good background in Bitcoin. Some of them even learned the basics of programming. To verify the open source code and started using an open source operating system.

Learning Bitcoin only requires time, reading some books, listening to real teachers on YouTube, and allocating some time to reading technical discussions, but using it only requires knowing the basics of dealing with a computer and phone.

I don't know what you mean by this, because, as far as I know, you can't have cryptocurrency or bitcoin without making any effort to have it. Even if we say you didn't take out any money, you still have something to do for it.

Just like participating in legitimate cryptocurrency airdrops, you still have to do the task now, unlike last year, when you just joined even without a task and received rewards. But now it's not really like that; in short, there's no free task today.

Bitcoin doesn't provide or allow you with anything, Bitcoin is a tool.

Your financial independence is not provided by Bitcoin is provided by other people who use their funds to buy Bitcoin, you could have all the knowledge on Earth if nobody buys the coins 21 million of them will be worthless. Simple as that, there is no humanitarian education, no philosophy, just basic economics, you have a good that is in demand you make money, there is no demand you're pennyless.
Replace Bitcoin with Apple shares bought 30 years ago and you have the same material gains.

Besides cryptocurrency is money so....you're telling me that the dollar allows you to work for dollars?


Is it just me who finds it funny you're arguing about philosophy with a guy called PytagoraZ?

A few people have demonstrated, using crypto, that it's possible to live a self-sustainable, off-grid lifestyle.  Beholden to no one.  It has a certain charm to it, but I don't think it's for everyone.  Besides, if everyone did it, society as we know it would basically crumble, heh.  

Personally, I try to strike a balance between the two extremes.  By choice, I'm only a part-time wage-slave.  It suits the way I live my life.  

I feel as though if I were entirely independent and self-reliant, the lack of structure would be to my detriment.  Procrastination tends to be the outcome if my options are too open-ended.  It seems I'm not focused enough to make my own routine from scratch and then compel myself to stick to it.  I'm far more productive when there are some boundaries (but not too many) set.  But everyone has to find what works for them.

But yes, Bitcoin is a wonderful tool to leverage in gaining some financial freedom and giving you options outside of what, somehow, ended up being the default, conventional lifestyle of "my employer pays my wages directly to the bank and that money then belongs to the bank".  I honestly don't know how that ever became considered "normal", or whether most people even consider how absurd it truly is.

Yes, you are right, we can invest bitcoins in other projects, and trade. I think it's difficult to make money consistently from trading and investing in other projects because as far as I know, crypto projects always have very high risks. If the goal is only for that, then fiat can also be used. Can be saved in a bank as a deposit, can be used for stock trading, can be used as an investment for people or institutions, and can be used to buy daily necessities.

In my opinion, bitcoin or crypto is an investment instrument and as far as I know it is very difficult to be able to depend on investment unless you have a very large investment value, small investments cannot be relied on in the short term.


Yes, I mean Socrates, thanks for the correction. In my opinion, in philosophical conception, money is not something important because money sometimes causes problems. One of the reasons why we want to have a lot of money is because we follow a lifestyle. I know several people who really don't depend on anyone, including money. He has rice fields planted with rice, gardens planted with vegetables, as well as goats and cows. He lives simply and doesn't follow the lifestyle of most people, he enjoys life in a relaxed and carefree manner, in my opinion that is true freedom because he is free from anything, including freedom from lifestyle demands.


Hahaha.. Looks like you have a pragmatic and materialistic paradigm

in all industries there are always those who learn the skill of a new niche/process/product/solution.. but then want to increase the barrier of entry for others and make their field specialised to preserve their status. and not have competition, so they can sell their skills.. thats capitalism

there was a time where bitcoin was about openness, freedom where no one wanted to commercialise/patent the information but freely give it openly. however we are starting to see a commercialisation of information. where code is being made purposefully less straight forward to lay people, where buzzwords that dont match the descriptions are formed and terms are created to obfuscate information to form tiers of elitism where its now an education to learn the buzzwords before you can even be seen as a peer worthy of having conversation with.

ive been in bitcoin for over a decade and i prefer to learn the technical detail/code/processes and use source material and data.. and then purposefully dumb it down to layman language, purposefully to help average joe people learn without needing an education in tech jargon. and i dont charge people for it. they just have to put up with my direct non ass kissing personality

And you know you have problems when you have trouble giving away your "unique" interpretation for free.  Not seeing many takers, heh.  For all your talk of others looking to "recruit", perhaps it's just jealousy talking, where you haven't managed to sway any minds to your fanciful way of thinking.

Turns out, the default for most people is to accept the reality they see with their own eyes.  Not to indulge in stories of what might be when imagination is running rampant.  I also don't see any need for you to to dumb it down.  When your position is entirely fictional, the level of accessibility to laymen is of little consequence.  Making campfire tales understandable to children doesn't make them more real.  Either way you're still peddling fiction.


//EDIT:


Except that you've misinterpreted all those things repeatedly.  Every time someone doesn't agree with you, it's because they looked at those same sources of information and drew a rational conclusion.  You, on the other hand, drew a fantasy that isn't real.

"unique" pfft your echo chamber circle is small. yes your fiction is not unique because you rely on drone echo's reciting you like a hymn-sheet
you even admit if you: "were entirely independent and self-reliant, the lack of structure would be to my detriment."

 try to look outside your own small circle. try to be an independent thinker instead of a blind repeater of nonsense sold to you with empty promises..
EG you were sold promises that if you make a fiction go viral that people should use other systems, it would make you welthier.. years later you are still not independently wealthy.. how has that worked out for you so far

there are thousands of people that dont follow your prospective, thousands that dont even script repeat it the way i say it but understand the facts of what i say are more correct and to the point compared to yours. they can do research if they want to check and find the data code and agreements and proposals that support my methods of explaining things..

doomad. try to use blockdata, code and actual events when you try to say your versions of drama story telling..
what i say can be backed up by data, code, source material if people want to do their research..

your mentorings are the fiction.. you quote other fictions as your proof, you dont use the blockdata, code, proposals (echoing a fiction does not change it to fact)
your HOPES lay in befriending people to trust what you say but not check what you say via actual code/blockdata. i prefer to do the checks and correct the fictions, where people can then look at the blockdata, understand it better and then see it for themselves.

if you were a true educator being paid people should ask you for a refund. you are a story teller not an educator. you are the worse kind

and one final thing
i bothered to learn the code, read the blockdata understand all the nuances. i learned it independently. i gained from it independently i am financially independent and i am beholden to no one. independence is a virtue not a detriment
maybe gain a little confidence soon and stretch yourself outside of your echo chamber.
 try to motivate yourself to learn bitcoin not stories. gain from actual knowledge and free yourself from the circle you entrapped yourself in

yes bitcoin can give you the opportunity to become a trader or investor and free you up to work with someone, but this cannot be said to be a job that everyone can do because only a few people can be successful at it. you can't come to someone and tell them "become a bitcoin trader and you will be free from your boss and all your needs will be met" no you can't because everyone still needs a stable income for their needs.

let me ask you, are you sure that you can work fully as a trader? and are you sure that you can fulfill all your needs from it? i doubt this because you are still tied to other work that can provide you with a stable income, such as the signature campaign you are doing now. so what you say is like delusional.

In whatever long thread we read, we capture only a part that is worth commenting for and everyone has their own place of interest. And my part of interest in the Op is the part he made mentioned of selling the knowledge. I think the knowledge was giving free so we are to give this the same knowledge free. Though I understand what you mean by "selling" the knowledge. And instead of using the concept of selling why did you use "impacting" the knowledge to the next generation and that is one of the key factors of "humanitarian education".

Bitcoin is not a system where one can come and make money instantly. The knowledge that is giving should be included in the mindset that the risk involved shout not be over look. And one of the risk there is that those who are investing in bitcoin must be patient to wait for a long time and in the process of waiting they should not panic when the price became downtrodden.

In the literal sense bitcoin does give us money without us putting in much effort unlike conventional labor. Have you worked so hard for your bitcoin to constantly rise in value? In amount, most likely, as I am on the same boat as they millions of people across the planet that are already making careers out of the crypto industry, but you don't need to do anything on your part for bitcoin to increase in valuation, so OP's statements still stands.

No matter how you put it, OP made a great point about bitcoin being a viable form of profit source without much effort on the side of the person, it's just that, I don't think the concept is that hard to understand unlike how you're trying to put it lol.

being associated with the health-allied field, i don’t understand this take on bitcoin

even if i’m not particularly well-versed with mathematics and technology I still took interest in bitcoin because I saw potential where it could lead me to a better economical status of course this belief can only take me so far I had to learn about cryptocurrency it was boring me at first because it was far from my interests and far from the career path i was taking however i tried my best to learn about it

I am not surprised hearing people think that the fact they are into Bitcoin or crypto-currency guarantees then financial success even if they won't work at all for it.
This misconception has to start from how Bitcoin was presented to them, many if them was told that Bitcoin would change their financial status so long as they are involved in Crypto-currency.
This is a failed mindset because thinking like this can increase your risk to getting scammed, or making the wrong investment moves.

Let's forget about any humanitarian or philosophical approach we give to bitcoin, it's only what it is base on what the whitepaper said, alot of scholars have said many things concerning bitcoin both in a way we could possibly get along with and the ones we may totally go against, but bitcoin will always remain the exact currency it was intended for and continue to serve through it protocols under the blockchain consensus, irrespective of the way everyone accept it, bitcoin remains the same with what the inventor planned over it.

Yes, I define myself like that. Of course, I understand, that majority prefers working in a more traditional way. But this isn't my story.


I have not said that you don't have to work at all to open the crypto pass for yourself. You have to make efforts to purchase your first coins and then trade or hold them. What I meant is that trading, for example, requires only your own knowledge, responsibility and desire. You don't have to report to anyone, you are your own boss, and for me this is the perfect way to work.


Of course, it is a tool. But this tool opens far more opportunities, than traditional ones, I believe.