Bitcoin Forum

So I'm curious.  Are there people here who bought btc or altcoins... but mainly the big altcoins like eth etc... that bought these coins years ago... let say at least 5 years ago or more and still haven't cashed any real profit at all?  Or is someone like that very rare?  Now let's say they might have cashed a few hundred dollars in profit at the most or 1000 dollars profit which isn't that much for at least 5 years.  Thus they haven't cashed out real big profit.  



Are there many people that have say at least 3 or 5 or 10 btc or even more where they haven't cashed out profit at all and been in this for at least 5 years?  So if you bought that much btc back at least 5 years ago, you are in profit with the current prices today pretty much no matter what unless you bought at the peak.  And if so, what is the reasoning for these people?  Is it because they want enough to retire?  Enough to buy a house? They don't want to dip into their btc unless they absolutely have to?



Now my other question is are there people that have say 10 btc or more even and are living paycheck to paycheck and have close to little in the bank but just pays their bills every month but just keep their btc as their life savings and rarely touch it unless you absolutely have to?  I got to assume very few people are like this right if they have say 10 btc or more?  Let's say whatever amount of money that person make a year and after taxes, they barely have enough to pay their living expenses and they are lucky to save even $1000 a year to put in the bank.  Let say this person has $5,000 in the bank only which isn't much for most Americans but then again, a good portion of Americans don't even have $1000 in the bank.

I could imagine there are people that are like this but almost all the majority of these are those who have a good or very well or high paying job and can pay their living expenses just fine?  Thus the same people that can put a lot of money in the stock market so these 3 or 5 or 10 or more btc isn't that big of a deal for them and it's basically a long term investment?



But there has to be very little people that hasn't cashed out any decent profits if they have low income right and small amount of money in the bank?  Like are there people that have a low paying job and barely can pay their life expenses and what they make cover their expenses only and say they have $5,000 in the bank but this person might have something ridiculous like 10 btc or so?  Such that this person have 400k plus worth of btc but only 5k in the bank and their job only covers their life expenses and they might dip into their bank account savings a few hundred dollars a month maybe once or twice a year?  And say this person is still living in a cheap apartment and cheap with everything else.  Is someone like this rare?  However, I got to assume there are some long term btc holders that are like this?  Such that their goal might be okay they have 10 btc, they will cashout once btc is say 300k or so and cashout 1 or a few btc at once and then buy property and put some in banks for interest?  Thus they want to cashout only when they have enough to retire and don't even want to spend even 10% of their profits for a new car or to move to a nicer apartment for a year?  Do people like that exist?



Now to take it to an extreme case, I got to assume that are very few people that are like what I described above but have more btc than that?  Let say a person has 25 btc and they also have 5000 dollars in the bank and their low paying job covers their life expenses only so they can't save much at all, say $1000 max a year.  Also this person lives in a cheap apartment and lives cheaply.  I got to assume someone like that rarely if ever exist or there are some people like that?  The thing is I heard many millionaires out there are very cheap.  But are there people that might have bought a total of 25 btc at 2k each for 50k total back years ago and have over a million dollars worth of btc and never cashed out any profiut or at most 1000 dollars profit and just have 5k in the bank while barely getting by with their low paying job?  I got to assume almost no one or know if anyone that would be like this if they were a long term btc holder?  The only way this would make sense is if this person already has a lot of money in the bank and in stocks and real estate and/or high paying job.  But if low income and owning no stocks or rental property and barely getting by, there are very few people like this?  Like imagine someone who lives in a van but has a lot of btc and just living as cheap as they can until btc hits the amount where they would then buy a house and just put all their money into savings account and live off the interest?

i have coins from 1-11years ago
i dont starve,.. instead i travel, i enjoy, i spend, i entertain,

i dont need to spend huge amounts of coin, so why sell whole hoard early
i have many stashes over time i keep separate and just use/spend/play with small amounts of a small stash for my lifestyle

im comfy.. i dont struggle, worry or stress over finances

That's really great and I think you've made the right prediction about the growth of the bitcoin and other altcoins in a better way. Most of us used to be wrong and the same had made us not to hoard. Myself bought Ethereum when it was around $100, but I hadn't predicted well about the future. Sold it when it was around $220 and now how it had grown.

i think it depends on the age group

if one is a bit on the older side, they might see bitcoin as a retirement plan these people mostly lived their life working and the money they earned from that were used to pay living expenses and maybe half of it went to bitcoin they now see bitcoin as the money they’re gonna use to live life after they stopped working however there are a wide range of investors even young adults are starting to invest early maybe they haven’t started working yet but investing in bitcoin is making them hope that they would not have to or maybe they would use the profit to pay for their education

Okay so you have coins from a while back.  You spend it but wouldn't need to if you didn't right?  Could you go into your bank savings for that or you don't want to do that?  You want to use some profits right?  The way you are talking, I assume you spent at least 1/3rd of your profits at least?



But do you think there are people that might have a lot of btc but live real poor and just dip into their bank savings only when they have to?  I mean imagine someone with 5k in bank savings and low paying job where they make just enough to make their bills.  They also live in a cheap apartment and cheap with everything else.  But someone they might have say 10 btc or more saved up?  That would be a very extreme case right?  However, I think some people like this probably do exist?  I recall there was a show on tv named real cheapskates and you had millionaires who live like they are poor.  However, are there long term btc holders that have a good amount of btc now but still decide to live in a cheap apartment and have a low paying job where iot basically covers their life expenses?  Or that has to be very rare?  Imagine someone with 10 btc for many years but only cashed out maybe 1000 dollars profit total or less so basically almost nothing. 



Would it be stupid for not cashing out anything because besides being able to say rent a better apartment, they could use a good portion and just put it in the bank to earn interest?  Then again you have people that say don't sell btc and selling it for fiat is bad since fiat is losing value? 

If there have been anyone who has kept holding his/her Bitcoin for quite this long period now without selling, I'm sure they should be on really good profit of their bitcoin investment. Because for example, if someone had invested in Bitcoin by this time last 3years (i.e December 2020) when the value of Bitcoin was still around $28k, while Bitcoin is currently $43k per BTC, he/she should have made $15k in profit.

Likewise with someone might have invested in it 5 years ago (i.e December 2018) when BTC was still around $4k, and now Bitcoin is currently $43k per BTC, he/she would have made $39k In profit.

Same as anybody who might have invested in it 10 years ago (i.e December 2013) when it's price was still $700 per BTC, by now he/she would have made a whopping $42,300 in profit for just mere buying BTC at this different time frames.

There are still people who are not pulling out their Bitcoin investments even with the previous All time High. One reason I guess is believing that the price could still go higher which is really possible in the first place. In the long run, the direction still of its price is in upward motion which makes sense to think of such thing. There are just price corrections on smaller time frames and that is a normal thing to happen especially to an asset which market price' is controlled and dependent on demand. They would still be in profit for sure, it will just vary whether it would be smaller or bigger depending on when will they want to exit already.

It is not feasible to want to change the thoughts of others, it is useless, but if you can change your actions, hence, generalizing the idea of what others do with their belongings (e.g. bitcoin), you only have to have a circumstantial reference; e.g.  there are people who love art and spend millions on a painting, some say "I will never sell it", perhaps as long as I live, but someone actually will, and that is the point, the individual behind their bitcoin does with your bitcoin.

Then, that attitude will have its effect in the individual to his finances, whether in the short, medium or long term, but fortunately as we do not "wait in line" to know what decision this individual makes (in the case of owning bitcoin), we can make our decisions.

Well, this is the case with bitcoin, the decisions depend on yourself, and it is not necessary to wait for anyone, it is not that you have to wait years as could happen with the painting mentioned in the previous example, to sell by... due to economic crisis, death, etc. consequently it finally It is for sale and you can access it

Finally, the individual decisions of those holders do not matter, their decisions will not affect you unless, as sometimes happens, important movements are made by certain holders, but it does not matter in your context, since you want to discover why someone having 10 BTC,  they live like a salaryman.

Seriously, that doesn't matter, the rest doesn't interest me, not to mention that with your personal financial life you can do whatever you want. What really involves us is the sale, the purchase, the hodl, what happens financially afterward with each of those actions is irrelevant.

a third? nah
i got more coin than your scenarios quote so no need to cash out so much to live on.. less than 1% is all i need to cover my lifestyle of early(very) retirement travel and entertainment
i dont cave dwell and just eat beans either.. i enjoy life
since the invention of wireless internet decades ago. there is no reason to stay home. i can converse, commerce, commute and criticise from anywhere

as for cashing out to earn bank interest pfft (facepalm) have you seen how crap bank interest is
in just this last month bitcoin has seen a 36k -> 43k (19%) in one month.. try finding any bank that can do that even for 3 years.. let alone 1 month

as for your other scenarios of $5k in bank and living like a caveman.. i got more cash than your scenario suggests. and yes even with a large hoard. i would still buy in more coin every price dump(buy low, sell high).. (far better investment than bank interest)

buying real estate or luxury cars is bad economics. my apartment/house is more then you envision. but i dont need a castle. id rather enjoy luxury travel of seeing new views instead of the same four walls, i spend more time away from home to not need a castle gathering dust

i used to day trade to accumulate alot, taking low risk small profits repeatedly/rapidly and compound them. but now i just ride the longer waves to sell on the 1-4 year highs/ATH and taking small % for my lifestyle expense and then buy on following correction down to value(sell high buy low)
i dont need to throw my whole hoard into an exchange i just use small % play money amounts per wave ride

i am frugal. as i said there is no point buying a mansion or a lambo.. as thats just dumb money just to impress others.. then dumber to then need to waste dumb time to maintain and keep aesthetically pleasing to please others.. just dumb all round
 
however i am excessive about the things i do care about like travel and entertainment, things that give me good experiences, memories and peace of mind enjoyment

they key to peaceful mindset, is to know you can afford anything you like, but not need or want to buy it. its actually more enjoyable this way
its actually fun going into a car dealership knowing you can buy a few cars in full upfront no finance.. but just browse and walk away knowing you dont need to buy it

Of course there are people like that. I'm one. Most of the bitcoin I currently have was from when I loaded up at the bottom of the market in early 2019. So nearly all of the bitcoin I currently have was bought at about $3500/btc. Don't have my 2013/2014 bitcoin anymore, but still have a little bit of my 2017/2018 bitcoin. I only sold a few of my 2019 bitcoin, I think 3 or 4 btc, in 2021 to diversify into altcoins which well didn't work out lol, but most of the 2019 BTC I still have.

I did sell some bitcoin twice this year to pay for a huge unexpected expense this summer and to pay for a vacation I'm going on in two days (woohoo!) because my bank account was only at ~$5000 but I needed a tropical island winter vacation haha. But those two bitcoin sales this year were taken from the bitcoin I bought earlier this year, not from the bitcoin I've been holding for years.

And I live frugally. Some months I spend under $1000. In fact Sept, Oct, and Nov this year were all easily under $1000 spending if you don't count last month me buying the tickets and stuff for my upcoming vacation. I specifically chose to live a frugal but full-time traveling life for a while (I've always been frugal though) after I retired in my 30's in 2019 off of my Bitcoin so that I could allow my Bitcoin to grow immensely in value over time cuz well that was kinda needed since I was retiring so my bitcoin has gotta last me the rest of my life.

I'm sure there are loads of people who have a lot of bitcoin, which may or may not have been considering a lot when they bought it, that they've been holding for years and have barely touched it. We all know bitcoin is going into 6 digits and eventually, perhaps in like 15-20 years, 7 digits. So unless you need the money or have a specific purpose for it (like say buying a house or selling during the bull market to buy back on the crash or whatever) it'd be pretty silly to sell bitcoin when it's only in the 5 digits.

They can have very strong belief and diamond hands with lot of patience to hold their coins for many years without selling. Another possibility is they lost access to those coins, lost forever. It can happen with both bitcoin and altcoins.

You can see the HODL waves chart (https://www.lookintobitcoin.com/charts/hodl-waves/) and make your estimations of those inactive coins that can be lost forever, part of those inactive ones.

Bitcoin: Addresses Holding > X BTC by Year (https://www.lookintobitcoin.com/charts/addresses-holding-x-btc-by-year/) provides some more information too.

Yes this is the examples I mean.  So imagine someone who bought a few btc like in the 3 examples you gave.  So it would be 15k per coin profit or 39k per coin profit or 42k per coin profit.  But let say they owned like 10 btc so you multiply it per coin.  So this person could have like 300k plus profit in btc or more.  However, let say this person didn't even cash out any of this 300k profit or maybe like 1k so not even 1% profit because they want to have the btc grow.  However... this same person have 5k in the bank total, low paying job and that job barely pays his living expenses such as rent and food and everything and live in a cheap apartment.  Are there people that are like this with the living conditions and the small amount of money in the bank account or not?

Okay so you are one of those long term btc holders from way back in the day.  Okay so you didn't spend 1/3rd of your cryptocurrency profits but maybe 5%?  I'm confused when you say you only spent 1% of your profits and that is more than enough for you to spend on everything.  So that mean you own a lot of btc since you are older btc buyer and holder but you cashed out at least 5% of your current btc profit from your initial investment right?


The thing is do you have a high paying job though?  Do you have a lot of income coming in that is not your job?  So if you had no btc, you have no problem paying your bills and everything and can still save?  You invest in stocks?  But how did you got the money to buy the stocks?  Was it from selling a tiny portion of your btc or was it from your job?  So profits spend on your tiny btc sell is entirely on vacations and things like that?  You say you use to daytrade a lot... you mean stocks?  Or you mean crypto or both? 


Why you say cashing out some btc and putting it in the bank to earn interest is bad?  I get what you mean with well btc went up almost 19% in one month but that is rare.  Well if you cash out btc, let say someone cashed out say $13,000 worth of btc.  Let say after taxes, it's worth $10,000.  Well put that in the bank and you earn 5% or $500.  That isn't bad.  Of course you have to pay tax on that $500.  But say you cashout $130,000 worth of btc and say have $100,000 after taxes.  You would earn $5,000 a year in interest which is decent.  But if someone had say over $1 million dollars worth of crypto and say after taxes they get say $700,000.  Well if they put that in the bank and earn 5%, that's $35,000.  That same person's income could be easily less than that and with that, well they can move to a better apartment or buy a house.  The issue is if they cashout everything, well they have no btc left.  So you say nobody should cashout all their btc unless they have to right? 



So it would make sense for people who are long term btc holders and haven't cashed out any real profit to keep holding and live like a caveman that has 5k in their bank account and a low paying job that pays just enough for their apartment and living expenses and thus they are in their cheap apartment etc?  Or you say for people like that, they should definitely cash out a little bit so they could at least have some extra spending money or be able to move to a better apartment where they pay say $500 or $1000 more in rent to enjoy that for a year or two with the anticipation that bitcoin will go higher as time goes up?

I envy those who still haven't cashed out since they bought their Bitcoin or other altcoins that made it big like Ethereum, but if cashing out is what it takes to live a more beautiful life, why not? What's the point of hodling anyway if you remain working from 8 to 5 from Monday to Friday to be able to support your basic needs? That would be ridiculous.

I still have my Bitcoin that I earned from years ago, even before Bitcoin reached its ATH. I have no plan to cash out for now, but it might come one day when Bitcoin reaches a certain price.

Okay so you are one of these people.  So you are a long term btc holder but not very long.  To me 5 years or more would be a long term holder.  Okay so you did sell btc to sell for a huge unexpected expense and for a vacation.  So is that a huge portion of the btc you have or not?  I mean I got to assume these two things is at least 10% of your life time btc profits total then?  Certainly 5% at least right?  So in other words, you wouldn't really fit into the category I am talking about because you spent more than $1,000 total profit from your btc right?  Okay so you say these two btc sales were taken from the btc you bought earlier this year and not from the ones from years ago.  Okay so those older btc you haven't spend much profit on it so you fit this criteria.


You don't believe in cashing out a portion of your btc into cash and then putting a portion into the bank and earning 5% interest?  Do you also feel like the other poster that is stupid?  I'm curious but are you from the US or not?


The thing is during this time entire, do you have a high paying job though?  Or you have medium income or low income playing job?  You sound like you have at least a medium income right where if you had no btc at all, you have no issues paying your living expenses without any issue?  By that, I mean paying your rent and food etc and not talking about vacations.  Thus you don't have like only 5k usd in the bank right and a cheap apartment and have to live cheaply?  Because if not, your situation is different than the situation I'm talking about.  I'm talking about like someone having 5k in the bank and a low paying job where it barely covers their rent and food and living expenses.  But this person could have 5 btc or 10 btc or even more.



Yes there are lot of people that have a lot of btc.  However, I can't imagine someone who has lot of btc and still work a low paying job and only have 5k in the bank and live in cheap apartment and does everything cheap like a caveman right?  Like very few if any at all?  I mean I can imagine one with 1 btc doing that or 2 btc maybe... but anyone with 5 btc or more certainly isn't doing something like that right?



The thing is the lot of people who have a lot of btc but also have a lot of money in the bank and lot of money in stocks and real estate, well they could have a ton of btc and never cashed out anything and it wouldn't affect these people because they are already rich without btc.  Like they are living in a nice apartment or house already and living pretty well.  So these people could dip into their bank account or sell some of their stocks and that is more than enough and don't even need to sell any btc.  I mean people who like a caveman with 5k and a job that barely pays their living expenses but just keeping their btc and not selling any.  That type of person is rare right? 

That's not surprising. Almost everyone focuses on short-term problems instead of long-term profits that may or may not happen. Just think about it, why would somebody care if they can cash out $10k in 2 years or so if they can't even eat this month?

Obviously, a smart person would not sell every BTC they have regardless of how difficult their life is, but survival comes first most of the time. I know some people use the money from selling BTC to get a better job or buy better working tools, so they can earn more and buy BTC again. But not everyone has this kind of tenacity and opportunity.

you are comparing bitcoin rate to bank interest......
do you even do math

2011-2013 (high to high) $30-$1200 =4000% / 2 years =2000% a year
2013-2017 (high to high) $1.2k-$20k =1600% / 4 years = 400% a year
2017-2021 (high to high) $20k-$70k =350% / 48month = 87% a year

and you want to compare it to bank interest of 5% PER YEAR

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i have a lump of cash, but i dont think much for the bank interest.. yea its free money but when bitcoin dips to a nice price nearer to value, i prefer to put money in bitcoin on the low and take out on the rise (even though i have coin hoarded. i still like to take opportunities when the price is drop is right)
i have spare play money amounts of coins i enjoy selling on a high
i have spare play money amounts of fiat i enjoy buying on a low

i have hoards of coin i dont touch for longer periods
i have fiat holdings i dont touch for longer periods

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as for advice for people on low incomes wanting to invest
if you are single (no spouse, no kids) so no dependants relying on your income. i would still not advice becoming a caveman living in squalor, just to invest everything..  but you would obviously have less dependants so have more excess/disposable income to invest without negatively affecting your life
yes be frugal, by replacing some luxury brands with cheaper brands. but dont suffer, be more conscious of your spending. EG dont buy brand new cars to impress people. just buy a car that can get you from a-b.
ask yourself will you really enjoy fast food delivery that just turns into a bowel movement tomorrow. or can you make something at home better and cheaper

and yes keep enough bank balance to cover any emergency such as any home appliances that stop functioning or covering bills for a few months if suddenly unemployed, but dont cash out investments or save up enough cash just to hope you can get nice bank interest..

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if they have been accumulating for many years. i see no sense in the binary(2 option) mindset of always hoard or always cash out.. personally i play the middle, of hoarding majority and cash out some to cover enjoyable life..

i do see many people that do the extremes of the 2 options.
some cash it all out and waste it on lavish lifestyle.. and their money is gone
some hoard and caveman live never cashing out even at a ATH

but smart people dont do the extremes

however those that do hoard for plans of retirement when they get old. are no different then those who invest in pension plans.. but you shoud not suffer and live like a caveman while waiting to get old

So how much percent a year would a bank offer you in interest where you would say it's worth for you to take the interest?  At least 20% minimum? 


You say you a lot of cash.  So you keep all that cash in a bank account right?  A checking account or a savings account?  I can't imagine you have a huge amount in checking account as oppose to savings account?  How much interest you get for it?  Okay so you now are still buying btc when it goes to a low price according to you?  Then you sell some of that once it hits a high price?  So you are trading btc now by on btc you buy recently and not your older btc right?


I actually mean if someone is single and is living like a caveman and this same person bought btc years ago.  So imagine this person still has the same low income job where he barely pays his rent and living expenses but the amount of btc he bought back then years ago is worth a lot now where he could have 6 figures of btc in terms of fiat.  And say this caveman is still doing the same thing with his his low income job and cheap apartment etc.  And say this person probably sold maybe 1k worth of his btc profit at the most where he could have 6 figures in btc profit if he were to sell now.  Would you say this person a person like this with only 5k in the bank which isn't even going to cover any emergency would be foolish to not sell any btc at all from the btc he bought years ago.  Thus this same person wants to hold the btc where his total btc balance goes to 7 figures first or would you say that is beyond stupid for someone like that?  Most importantly, could you imagine there being people like thie extreme example or not?  Imagine 5k in the bank, low paying job where they can barely pay their rent and food and expenses.  They also live in a cheap apartment.  But this person could have say 5 or 10 btc or even more and they are just holding it and not cashing out anything and living like a caveman.  What you say about that and do people like thie exist?  I mean... like this person could cash out some btc and well move to a nice apartment to live for at least a year or two to enjoy it right?  Or you say that is stupid?  Say they also continue their low income job but at least they move to a better apartment.  What are your thoughts on this?

id say to that person.. stick to economic logic..
buy low sell high

we are at mid point of 4 year ATH cycle. its a little too early to cash out even $1k just to then sit in a bank account earning 5%
best thing is to only cash out if you are in profit. and only if you have true emergency need if it is not a ATH cycle year

when a ATH happens. then evaluate how much you want to cash out to live on
and then when the price corrects decide how much to stick back in for the next cycle

sometimes selling all coin just to buy back in x months is not worth the effort in selling all per cycle. because selling all ends up triggering a tax event. so best do math and calculate the pro-con of cashing it all out or just a percentage

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as for the apartment question
each person is different as are their apartment options

make a judgement. is it the size of the apartment feeling like a prison
if so ask 2 questions

is it the size of the apartment?
or
lack of things to do outside near(walking distance of) apartment that is the problem?(dont go out as there is nothing to do)

if you searched for what you deem as a better apartment/location with more local activities. look at the cost difference between the rents/mortgages. and ask 2 questions
is paying the extra for better apartment going to improve life.
or
can that "difference between" amount pay for more regular outdoor activities to improve your life

is it really the apartment or the lack of vacations the real problem.
can the "difference between" allow you to work a few less hours while still sustaining cost of living, to allow you more rest/recreation time

Selling your Bitcoin because you want to put the funds in a fixed deposit for 5% interest is a wrong investment move. Such a person might have other reasons for doing that but if it is for profit-making, it is not a smart move. Keeping Bitcoin is more profitable than a fixed deposit. You have to also consider the effect of inflation on fiat money. Within a few years, the money will gradually lose value.

Keeping Bitcoin indeed comes with a lot of sacrifice especially now that the economies of some countries are suffering. But why would somebody suffer from lack and want when he has some Bitcoin to sell? Our main priority should be how to live comfortable and healthy lives. And you cannot eat good food and live in a comfortable apartment without money.

If someone's job cannot cover his cost of basic needs it is better to sell some portion of your Bitcoin investment than to fall sick or die because you want to keep your coins. It is good to live a low-cost life that will limit spending on luxuries but when it comes to basic needs it is important for survival. If you fail to eat well, live in good homes and maintain your health because you want to keep your Bitcoin, you might die and someone else will enjoy your investment.

People decide how they want to live their lives especially when they are old enough to make decisions. There might be people who might have chosen to live below their income and don't want to touch their Bitcoin for some reason best known to them. But I can attest that such kinds of people are very scarce. Maybe they have big plans for their Bitcoin in the future but I reiterate that the main reason why we invest is to live a comfortable life.

Well you should only cash out when you are in profit.  So a person that is a long term btc holder, if they sell any decent amount of btc they have, it would be in profit becaue they bought the btc from a while back.  But if someone doesn't need to cashout btc at the moment but their living conditions suck such that they only have 5k in the bank and their low paying job only pays enough to cover their rent and food and cheap living expenses... shouldn't that person who would have profit if they sell a decent portion of their btc, even say 5%, well they would be able to live in a nice apartment for a year or so.  When I say nice apartment, just imagine it being nicer than the current apartment where it could be small or just crappy apartment.  But that person is fine living like that but obviously would want to upgrade.  So upgrading to a better apartment could mean they like the area better and things like that.  But this person could be used to their crap apartment for many years and they don't care and just live like caveman in their apartment.  By cheap apartment, imagine an apartment that you wouldn't even want to bring anyone to because it's embarrasing... like that type of caveman person and type of apartment.  What are your thoughts on that?  And do you think there are peoplie like that have a decent amount of btc?


Well in the example I don't mean sell the btc and buy back later.  I mean do you think people like this exist or not?  And yes this would be the extreme end of like having a good amount of btc but not enough to live off.  Like imagine someone paying few hundred dollars in rent where they could easily pay double or 3x and live in a nicer apartment for a year or so to enjoy some of the profits as oppose to not enjoying and profits and living like a caveman living in the same cheap apartment and working the low paying job which barely covers their expenses.  Like this person might even have mid 6 figures or more but they don't want to sell any profit at all.  Like imagine someone who bought amazon stock years ago and didn't sell any and if they sold just 10%, well now they could at least move to a nicer apartment for a year or so but they don't spend anything and live like a caveman.

Okay so you think these type of people are scarce which is my question and I do believe it's very scarce.  I mean there can't be any or much people where they have 5k in the bank and a low paying job where it covers their cheap living expenses... imagine cheap apartment and everything cheap... and zero money in stock or real estate or anything but somehow a person like that has like 1 or 2 million dollars in btc right?  And imagine this type of person goes... I am not selling any btc until it's either an emergency where I have to sell... or until btc hits like 6 figures so I can cash out half the btc and retire and live off the interest?  I got to assume thare might be very few people who are like this right?  Then again, it's hard to imagine someone still working a low paying job and living in a cheap apartment and not cashing out any btc profits if they have a decent amount of btc right?  I can imagine someone who bought btc years ago for 2k and now it's 40k and say they could have 1 or 2 btc and well that they don't want to cash any out.  But the same person with say 10 or 12 btc... got to assume that is much different right?  Or there are some rare people that are willing to live as cheap as they can and work their low paying job and can't even save money after paying all their living expenses but still do that and just holding on to their btc and waiting for their entire btc to be worth like a few million dollars?  That type of person is very rare and extreme but they do exist right?



I am talking about people who cashed out maybe 1k max profit and their total profit right now if they cashout could be 6 figures for example.  Heck it could even mid 6 figures but they choose to not do so?  Those people are very rare right?

There are still a few people who had tons of coins which were over 10 years old which cash out from time to time. Even once in a while we have someone that cashes out the original 50 BTC mined coins.

If you look at the coin days destroyed it shows you a graph and when a large portion of old coins are finally being moved. Usually this happens when we hit new ATH and sometimes when it looks like bitcoin is crashing.

Well these people are people who I'm talking about.  I mean at least holding for 5 years so that would clearly be even long than that.  However, are there people that hasn't cashed out any real profit but lives like a caveman so to speak and work a low paying job which barely pays the bills and live in a crappy apartment.  Such that if they spent say 10% of their profits from the btc from years ago, they could live in a nice apartment for a year or so.  But instead that person continues to live like a caveman.  Are there many people like that?

This, this is what I strive to be my life is, not worrying where I will get my next meal and my only worry is that I miss going to this place or going out with my friends having fun, working for money is soul sucking but hopefully I will not do it for my whole life.

Regarding hodling for a long time, I would brag to everyone here that I'm currently hodling a fair amount of bitcoin for about 5 years and it's going to be 6 in my birthday. I have been a believer in bitcoin and I swore to myself that I'm not going to sell or even touch that bitcoin until I've witnessed bitcoin get to a 150k and now that the bullrun is kicking off and a lot of people are expecting a new ATH, I hopefully would be able to get to enjoy the fruit of my patience.

So you haven't cashed out any btc profit at all?  Not even say $100 worth?  Surely you cashed out a very tiny bit of profit right like even that?  When I'm talking about real profit... I mean like 5 figures in profit. 


The thing is do you have a high paying or average paying or low paying job?  Can you pay for your living expenses without an issue on what you earn or is that a problem?  Do you live in a nice or average or cheap apartment? 


You said you haven't cashed out any btc for many years already so you would be considered a long term btc holder.  However, you have enough money in the bank and whatever you do as your job to cover your expenses right which is why you haven't sold the amount of btc you got from a while back?  Do you still buy some btc now and sell it for trading?  But the majority of it from years ago, you don't cash those out?  I got to assume you aren't living like a caveman now right?  By caveman I mean like living in a cheap apartment and low paying job and barely pay your living expenses and you not having much money in the bank.  I assume that isn't you right?  The thing is I want to know if there are people like that... yet they have a good amount of btc where if they sell a good portion of it, they could rent a nice apartment for a year or so etc. 

El Salvador has not yet cashed in on the amount of Bitcoin it has. Urges to sell were ignored, aka Bukele still adhered to his firm principles, namely hedging the future of his Bitcoin investment.
Saylor and the microstrategy company, my assumption is that they are in a profitable condition with the amount of Bitcoin they have.

Other people who have less Bitcoin than Saylor and other figures, some may have sold to make a profit because they live on Bitcoin. Others may still persist with Bitcoin ownership.
It all depends on the purpose of the Bitcoin.

I have many friends who buy Bitcoins at regular intervals, let’s assume every week. They doing this for many years as I remember. They only cash out the Bitcoins when there is emergency of money, otherwise they keep on buy these valuable coins. They really making good profits to be honest. They are cashing out also when necessary and still they have good amount of coins in their wallet. This all happened due to the price rise from 2018, till date. So definitely if you are planning to invest for long term, you will surely get profits.

I haven't sold or used any coins that I have acquired, apart from a bit of scalping I did through CoinBase. In fact I have never sent anything out of any of my wallets, and I guess it's time I did this just to improve my knowledge. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of coins, as I collected them a few years ago in payment for domain names, and buying a few £500 lots in this forum.

ok lets really thrash this OP's scenario out in depth

so he has this certain person in mind:
a US person on min wage ($15/h)  - *40*52=$31.2k/year pretax - $26k after tax
so $2.166 a month after tax take home
$5k in bank (2.5months emergency fund)
~11btc hoarded(473k todays price of ~43k/btc)
bought at roughly $2k/btc ~ 5-6 years ago
ok so the price did not go below $2k post 2017-8 ATH so i will presume he bought mid 2017 at $2k
his risk tolerance is 1/3rd


ok. now im gonna imagine i was this person and play out how i would have thought things out over the years

i would not touch the $5k in bank to better my life. id keep that as liquid easy access money for emergency
i would set targets for my coin.. never to sell all 11btc(ops scenario amount)
but knowing last couple ATH did:
2011-2012: $0.30-$30-$6       100x up  5xdown
2013-2014: $30-$1.2k-$240    40x up 5x down
id anticipate a max 16x up in 2017 (last cycle max was 2.5x lower of previous multiplier)

due to ATH anticipation (halving+1year pattern=2017 imminent) of that 11btc id split that 3 ways.
1btc sell at 4x max ($2k/btc becomes 8k)
3btc sell at 8x max ($2k/btc becomes 18k)
7btc sell at 16x max ($2k/btc becomes 32k)- prefer not to sell but would if reaching max multiplier
(happy to sell 4btc of 11btc is ~ the 1/3rd risk tolerance of OP)

so winter 2017
btc does 10x max to 20k
meaning i sold 1btc at $8k and 3btc at $18each giving me $62k

the other allotment didnt hit. so i set them aside 7btc aside
now expecting the correction down to be 5x. id decide how i would keep some as fiat and put some back in
expecting $20k/btc ATH to get back down to $4k/btc
id want to put enough fiat back in to recover my 4btc atleast

meaning of the $62k in pocket ($15.5k average per btc) i would not buy at $15k as thats just break even, so instead
0.5 at $10k/btc ($5k cost)
1btc at $8k/btc ($8k cost)
2.5btc at $4k/btc($10k cost)

they all hit in 2018 meaning im back to 11btc and have spent $23k of my $62k to get back to 11btc
leaving me with $39k money to decide what to do with, so

this is where different people would make different decisions
(accumulate more coin or better their lifestyle)

i personally when seeing the price go down to $3.3k a couple times in a few months (below the predicted 5x of ATH correction)
would have bought more coin
i would have used $10k of $39k money to get an extra 3btc at $3.3k each
meaning $29k money for lifestyle and now 14btc

$29k is more then doubling OP's work labour income for one year.. so a nice 2 year of lifestyle increase to 1.5x. spending $14.5k in 2019 and $14.5k in 2020 ontop of OP salary
(based on OP's lifestyle scenario details)

its nearing the end of 2018 now i feel the market has corrected to bottom.
i would plan how to play the market with the 14btc ready for the next 3 years until next ATH

[ill leave scenario there at this point]

For many people Bitcoin is their bank, they don't have to sell all their Bitcoin because it's in huge profit, they plan to build their lives around it, some want to get retired having a good number of Bitcoin, it's the same feeling with Ethereum and other successful crypto projects but it is still a huge risk because anything can happen, I guess those people that do this easily don't have all their hopes on money, they are people who aren't afraid to live in any situations.

Some are big holders but they have other things bringing even more fiat for them, they enjoy having fun and traveling the world, something that I really want to end up doing in my life someday, I don't want to be chasing money all my life, it's soul draining, I hope this next bull market will be the end to all this and I will start enjoying my retirement.

I have started my journey with lots of worries, maybe I will one day be rich, maybe I will make it big and safe my families from poverty, maybe, just maybe, it is very tiring for me, I want to be free from all these, I hope my dream gets granted by the heavens.

The question is, why would i be holding an investment for 4 to 5 years and have not cashed any huge profit. Its not possible. Any bitcoin investor from 2020 till date who have at least one bitcoin in his/her portfolio by now the person can boast of about 5 to 7 thousand dollars in profit. In fact only this year would have given the person that kind of profit.

The only way someone may claim they have not had any huge profit after 5 years of investment in bitcoin is because they are not consistent and some point in time may have switched to a different investment or diversify his/her portfolio with other altcoins that have made them to lose money. So by this they ae struggling to recover from loss and at the same time hoping to get some little profit.

1 BTC = 1 BTC, that's why they don't want to sell their coins.

If they have enough fiat to survive, why they need to sell their coins during bull run? they can hold it as long as they want and sell it whenever they want.

Not all people are traders (sell during bull season and buy back during bear season), so if you think become a trader is good, then do it.

It can be assumed that buying on the highs will make the profit less, but if you use DCA to buy, then in the long term it is difficult to make losses when investing in Bitcoin.

This is an almost ideal investment for patient investors, all you need to do is be consistent and never sell at a loss. Each time, a new bull run allowed everyone who was patient enough to make a profit, no matter what level they bought at the previous cycle. Now it looks like we are entering a new bull market as over 80% of Bitcoin holders are in profit, the most important thing now is not to sell too early.

Holding your investment in a long-term plan means not thinking of selling that investment in the short term. Many have big targets and some investors may not reach that big target yet. I have profited several times by holding my bitcoins in long term plan but despite profiting several times since I didn't need the money much I reinvested in bitcoins and held that investment for a long time. There are some investors who have held investments in Bitcoin for a long time and their dream is to sell their investments if Bitcoin ever reaches $100,000. Long term planning means not to sell your investment for small profit in short term but long term investment plan is to hold your investment for long time in hope of more profit.

What you described in the beginning would be the example I want to use.  So say that person makes minimum wage and earns that and after taxes, that person saves pretty much nothing each month after living expenses.  And remember this person is living in a cheap apartment and doesn't very cheaply.  Also this person would own no stocks or property or anything at all.  Heck, he doesn't even have a car most likely either.  The only difference is the things and numbers you mention below that, you are saying this person did sell some btc during between the timeframe they bought btc till now right?  Let say in your example that person bought 11 btc back over 5 years ago or so and use the example of 11btc.  Let say this person bought 11 btc total but this was even before the price was 2k.  Let say it was like 500 dollars so many years more than that. So this person spent like 5500 dollars years ago on the 11 btc.  Let say around that time, he could have 25k in savings as well so spend like 1/4 of his living savings on it.  I'm saying imagine this same person still has 11 btc now but they only have 5k in the bank... and just like back then... they are working the same low income minimum wage job and just like that back, it's just enough to cover their living expenses.  But some months they have to go into their savings.  So back then they had 25k in the bank and now only 5k.  Of course lot of this will be due to inflation.



In you example and numbers you are assuming this person has bought and sold some of their original 11 btc right?  However, let say this person still hasn't sold any.  Or if they did, it might be a ridiculous small amount not worth mentioning.  Like 1k usd worth.  And now that 11 btc is worth over 400k in usd.  I want to know do you think there are people that are like this in this extreme situation where they spend either a decent amount of their money years ago buying btc and now it's worth this much and thus their btc could be worth 400k plus now but they only have 5k in the bank and still live cheaply and have the same low paying job as back then?  I got to assume there might be a few people like this but extremely rare right?  And if so, this person would be stupid because well not only they have 400k in btc or more... they literally have like 95% or more of their net worth in btc?  Well technically it's not 400k in btc or more because after taxes, let say it's worth 270k... though it's probably worth more like 300k or more since they been holding long term right?



Now what about the same person with the low paying job and cheap apartment and being cheap.  Let say this guy has 20k in the bank.  But back then when they bought btc, let say 11 btc as in your example.  Now let's assume this person bought btc when it was 300 dollars only on each btc on average back years ago.  So this person spent about 3300 dollars on the 11 btc back then.  Now let say with this person... this person had like 60k.  So 3300 of the 60k they had is a bit more than 5 percent of their net worth so they aren't as risky as the guy above who spent 5500 on btc when they only had 25k in the bank so that 1st person spent over 20% of their net worth in btc.  Now this 2nd person like the 1st person has only 5k in the bank right now along with the low paying job which barely covers their living expenses and cheap apartment.  And like the person above, their btc could be worth 400k plus and after taxes, they would have 270k or 300k like the person above.  The thing is their net worth in btc compared to the money in their bank woudl be like 98% or so?  Imagine someonw with 300k worth of btc after taxes if they sell and have 5k in the bank and that's all.  How rare would this person be?  Very rare right but surely some like that exist?  But almost anyone in this situation would definitely have sold some btc to get some profits right whether it's more  money in the bank or to enjoy life or at least get a better apartment?  Let say they only have their low income job and nothing else such that they can't do anything else. 



Would this person like the above person be stupid in the sense that not only did they not cash any real profit from holding btc for all these years?  And I mean real profit as in cashing out at least 5 figures.  You could say either of these 2 people cashed out 1000 dollar in profit but that is nothing at all if their net profit is 400k plus right?  But not only that... they would have 98% of their net worth in btc and only 2% in the bank.  Now what would you say about these 2 people?  Also assume they didn't buy or sell any btc between all these years like the example you provided.  And let say both of these people have a set target where I will continue to do my low income job and live cheaply and in the same apartment and be a hoarder with the btc.  Like they each might have a plan where I would cashout 1 btc once it hits 100k and that is all for now.  Then only when it's higher like 150k or 200k where if they sell half of the btc or more than that, I could then retire and live off the interest.  Would you say these people would be makinig mistakes here?



Also are you from the US or not?  The thing is let say someone could cashout all their btc and let say they have 2 million dollars.  I mean you can easily live off that correct and not have to work for most people as long as they are frugal right?  I mean let say 1 million dollars for a house that is 2 families.  You have 1 million left.  You have to pay property taxes and all that when you own a house.  But let say you rent a part of your house to someone.  That rent you could collect would easily pay any property taxes and utilities and electricty and everything right for your entire house and you still have money left over?  Now with that leftover money, you still have 1 million dollars.  Let say you put $700,000 in a CD earning 5 percent.  Now you are earning $35,000 passively a year.  You still have $300,000 in the bank.  That $35,000 a year would be more than the low income job you have.  So you can possibly continue working if it if you want... but you at least moved from an apartment to a nice house right?  But say this person doesn't want to work their same low income job anymore... well $35,000 a year from CD interest and house already paid off and rent coming in which covers the house property taxes and everything with money left... wouldn't this person easily be able to retire on this?  Or is my numbers wrong?  Of course this person can't splurge and buy multiple cars and go on lavish vacations but this person surely can retire and live off their interest and live in their new house correct?



I got to assume your opinion on this would be that person is making a big mistake selling all their btc right?  But that example surely sounds better than someone who continues to work their low paying job and same cheap apartment but could have 2 million after taxes but for some reason... wants to make sure it's at least 2.5 million or even 3 million after taxes?  Now that would be insane right?  The thing is you think there are people that might have 2 million dollars even worth of bitcoin if selling all after tax but somehow choose to live in a crappy apartment and continue working a low income job that barely covers their living expenses?

It is very strange that those who have had Bitcoin for a long time and at this point do not have profits, if you do not have profits it is because you are not a hodler, it is because you bought bitcoin recently, and since the price has been increasing, things are not looking So much so, but everyone who has had bitcoin for a long time is in the green, there is no doubt about that, and if you are an investor who has been in bitcoin for a long time, it is not possible that you do not have it. In fact, I have read that there are so many bitcoin investors who They have not agreed to sell bitcoin even though they are in profits, this is what you have to see, you cannot do anything else , and if they do not want to sell and that their Profits must be very high, and they are probably very millionaires, it is because they think that bitcoin can have a high rebound.

I'm not saying that bitocin is going to reach a new ATH level, but if it can make a big bullish move and that is what many are waiting for , if you are an investor and you haven't seen profits, you must be doing something wrong.

Let us just give an example and say that I am one of those people that have been holding for the last 5 years with the same amount. The reason why I am not selling because I am waiting specifically for a bigger amount that I can cash out big by that time. While it is seen that Bitcoin's price is going to keep on moving positively, this makes me optimistic to hold longer than to withdraw everytime the bull run is out but I am not sure where I'll spend that money. I don't want to let that profit sit on me because of inflation and that's why fiat sucks and bitcoin rocks. As fiat gets more inflation, bitcoin is more with deflation. So that's it, more about the bigger value that we can take in the future.

Yes, I'm one of these people. I did spend some of my bitcoin since I got it in 2014 and 2015, but it was not more than 5%. I probably spent something like 3% in 2017 and another 2% in 2021.
So 9 years of holding, 5% cashed out.


I'll give you a couple reasons.
-I don't need to sell
-I see a lot of value in bitcoin
-I have both fiat and bitcoin and when I want to buy something expensive, like a new car, I spend cash because my cash loses value while bitcoin gains it.
-I want to have a backup fund that nobody can take from me and that I can pack on a USB drive and take wherever I want without telling anyone and paying tax at an airport.

I don't live paycheck to paycheck. Bitcoin is about 60% of my total asset value, 30% is in real estate and 10% in fiat.

i'm sure there are members on this forum who continue to hold on to the bitcoin they have for a long time, they do that because they don't need money by selling the bitcoin they have, they must already have a permanent job out there that pays them well.  i always tell anyone that the best way to get good profits from bitcoin is by trading, investing or opening a business related to bitcoin.  Michael Saylor is a good example of a bitcoin investor who until now has not sold the bitcoin he bought through his company Microstrategy, he can do that because his company has made big money from their best-selling products.

If it's 5 years or more, I don't seem to be in it. Because personally, if I'm not mistaken, I started really investing in crypto starting in late 2020 or early 2021. And it was also a really small investment. It was only a few years ago and I still hold these coins. The main reason is because the price did not meet expectations and there was also a delay in taking profits during the bullish era last season. Some of these coins are BTC, Eth, BNB, LTC, and ADA. but indeed with a very small nominal amount

Yes, really depends on the individual on how they will look or how long they are going to hold. For sure we have a lot of long term holders here, who might not have sold even if we reaches all time high because they don't need the money and they just wanted to hold as long as they can.

But for the majority of us here, let's say average joe, it's good to at least experience one bull-bear cycle, buy and then hold and see how it goes for you. If you don't sell and take profits then good for you. But I think and this is just my opinion that there are investors that are going to sell their stash at any bull run and then take the profits and enjoy it and then repeat the process.

They could be hodling their precious coins for retirement so surely, they would continue to hold it as long as they can and only sell it when they will be needing it badly during their old age. But I also agree that those who have not been selling their coins for 10 years or more have probably lost already their wallet's seed phrase and until now they are still struggling to recover it so they can finally benefit their coins.

Worst is, those who have stacked a lot of coins that until now are still in their respective wallets, might not be alive anymore and sadly, their families or loved ones have not been aware that their family member was holding a lot of valuable and highly profitable coins or investments.

I wish I had such kind of Bitcoins in my wallet, unfortunately I am still among the smaller traders here. Either you joined the crypto world really early when prices where much lower, or you just have a lot of money through work/gambling or trading that you can buy so many coins. In any case I think there are plenty of people today who still hold large amounts of BTC and are not selling. The first reason why is that prices have been much high in the past and many of the long-term investors didn't sell their coins at the ATH above 60k USD. So, why should they be fine now to sell at 40k USD? Another point is that prices are not dropping sharply. I would expect prices to dip again if there are many investors selling their coins at once. And the last point that speaks against most investors selling their coins at the moment is the halving is only coming up next year. If you don't really need the money at the moment, wouldn't you rather wait for the next halving to push prices even further? Thinking about retirement might be a good idea as well.

There are people that has invested for a very long time, selling or even withdrawing a little is not an option for them instead they continue accumulating more, actually bitcoin investment was not meant for quick decision maker, it is invested for long run thinkers that has other forms of earnings that can adapt in the system, bitcoin is not a get rich fast investment, since the halving period happens every four years and in this period bitcoin is expected to uptrend in price, I think every good bitcoiner should be targeting to invest more two years before that year comes in other to at least get a little profit but withdrawing it should be personal, a strategy for investing in bitcoin is investing and forgetting for a long period of year's.