Bitcoin Forum

Been hearing this a lot, its called the news and all the negative reportings surrounding btc thats dropping this

Stop putting the blame/excuses on altcoins or shitcoins (not defending shitcoins but it will sort itself out)

Mind providing a few charts logarithms and hard data to prove your speculation  ;)

Yeah, I think most people know this. Gox was what really started the recent problems.

But it does make a good excuse for those who want to go after their competition and those who want to find an easy scapegoat.

yup when btc is up every side is happy

when btc goes down everyone wants to kill each other  :P

who's blaming alt coins?

actually the more shitcoins the stronger it makes btc (though the alt coins will eat each others markets).

Bitcoin is the reason altcoin markets are dropping. They are interrelated.

Raxe.

I think there are several factors in play. Altcoins are not responsible alone for BTC price drop, but they are taking market share.

Ultimately the price of BTC will rise along with overall altcoin market capitalization.

I'm new, but I thought bitcoin was dropping because of the US tax man classifying it as liable to capital gains tax and the Chinese banning exchanges from doing business with Chinese banks.

Capital gains tax is better than income tax isn't it? So being a capital gain instead of an income is actually good news, surely?

-MarkM-

I'm not an expert, but I think it's only 20% and you can offset $3000 of losses against next year's bill. At least that's what someone else on these forums said.

It's only a capital gain if you buy, hold and sell as an avocation. If you're mining, or are a business taking cybers in for goods and services, it's taxed as income.

I also think that altcoins isn't the reason for bitcoins price dropping.
But I think bitcoins should be in the people to her bag mail confidence, to solve the present difficulties as soon as possible.

Actually the centralized few people that own the largest % of all BTC I think are discovering that old Wall St capital likes to do the scam , not get scammed.

So in this respect I think Bitcoin has a long road to travel.

Lot of shitcoins coming each day, maybe they are the reason other altcoins r so low

Wishing thinking. The price of BTC is trending (rapidly) towards the cost of mining it.

The use of malicious negative trust to suppress free speech brings discredit to the bitcoin community

Actually it is trending rapidly upward, with occassional relatively brief "corrections" or "slumps" or whatever along the way.

What is the average increase in value per month across the months it has existed?

-MarkM-

I'm not trolling when I assert that "There is no reason for bitcoin to be worth more than the cost of mining it other than speculative hope that it will be."

Use of malicious negative trust brings discredit to the bitcoin community

Unless it is to actually be used/useful in real life, in which case it will almost certainly need a higher market cap unless somehow it is used only at high velocity, everyone having to sell their coins fast because others need them right away, and buy more when they need some because what they had before is already spent...

Right now you probably could not even pay one state or nation's property taxes with bitcoin without having to sell some, pay some taxes, buy some again on the market, pay some more taxes etc.

Or if you wanted to buy a few fleets of ocean liners, or if just a few thousand people wanted to buy a couple of nice estates each, etc.

The market cap needs to be large enough to allow a reasonable volume of concurrent purchases to be able to happen.

Even just a few thousand people each wanting to lock away a few million bucks worth in safe deposit boxes for their heirs to inherit would significantly strain the current market cap.

-MarkM-

Ok, lets see now. This is the scarcity argument - the supply/demand argument - that if bitcoin becomes widely adopted for transactions then there won't be enough to go around, hence it will become more valuable.

But bitcoin isn't particularly well suited for transactions because its transaction times are so slow. Any there is no barrier to entry for another similar coin with faster transaction times in bigger quantities with better divisibility.

Use of malicious negative trust to suppress free speech discredits the bitcoin community

Actually what you just mentioned is velocity. If lots of transactions happen fast a small amount of market cap can come around and go around very fast, enabling lots of transactions.

The thousands of people socking away millions of dollars worth indefinitely or as heirlooms / inheritance is a trickier problem.

If people decide they would like to leave at least a thousand coins to their heirs, in case it goes down to only $1 per coin, then only 21,000 people doing so would tie up all the coins. Something would have to give.

People who want to leave more than 1000 coins to their heirs would tie up all the coins even sooner.

-MarkM-

Sure, but who wants to stand in the checkout line waiting for 10 minutes while your payment is confirmed ?


Use of malicious negative trust to suppress free speech brings discredit to the bitcoin community

Right. For that you'd maybe prefer GeistGeld, which you get alongside your bitcoins, namecoins, groupcoins, devcoins, ixcoins, i0coins and coiledcoins when mining.

Or more likely you'd use a payment processor, a bitcoin denominated banking account debit or credit card or somesuch tool.

But again you are back to harping on velocity. Paper wallets in safe deposit boxes are low velocity.

-MarkM-

I'm not harping about anything. I am asserting that "There is no reason for bitcoin to be worth more than the cost of mining it other than speculative hope that it will be"

looks like BTC is doing a retest of ~400 today … Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

The use of malicious negative trust to suppress free speech brings discredit to the bitcoin community

Not only speculative hope but also deliberate backing of more and more bitcoins at higher and higher prices by folk who need to keep it at a high market cap in order for it to serve their needs.

It takes time, but market-makers / liquidity providers can over time build up larger and larger piles of buy offers, eventually large enough to buy all the coins if all the coins ever got offered at prices the pile of buy orders had piled up to.

Eventually the profits made just in such market-making can add up to more that the entire market cap of bitcoin had been in the past.

The same applies to any coin, of course, although the more of it miners are mining and dumping the harder it will tend to be for market makers to pile up enough by orders fast enough in the course of providing liquidity on both sides of the order-book.

Just on Vircurex alone we had been starting to make good progress toward increasing DeVCoin's bottoming-out price before Vircurex decided to freeze all the bitcoins we had been accumulating on the buy side of the DVC/BTC order-book.

And that was after only a few years of using VIrcurex, most of that time being before we had figured out that most recipients of DeVCoins preferred to dump it in market orders lowering the price to placing sell orders and waiting for buyers to take them up on the sell offers. Once we realised most recipients of coins dump them we ramped up our efforts to buy as many as they dumped and be prepared to buy even more.

-MarkM-

Yes, good point. Its obvious to me that 'market makers' are keeping a lot of these markets from falling faster and further. And i'm sure there is good money to be made this way for the skilled, but at the end of the day you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Use of malicious negative trust to suppress free speech discredits the bitcoin community