Bitcoin Forum

As we all expected Runes have increased fees dramatically and at the same time make Bitcoin unusable as peer-to-peer electronic cash.

I see what is happening to Bitcoin and wonder why no one else is questioning the changes!!

I would like to see Bitcoin returned to its original form without ordinals but wonder if that is even possible at this point.

Why are we allowing this?

I would like to start a group who advocates for Bitcoin as it was intended.  Is anyone interested?

Mining reward will decrease over time and will gradually and fully be replaced by transaction fee. That is the reason this should be allowed. But bitcoin developers are sleeping to make bitcoin transaction to remain at 1 to 10 sat/vbyte. We need bitcoin developers to make a proposal that will benefit the future of bitcoin in regards to transaction fee.

The fees should be driven by supply and demand in order to use Bitcoin as electronic cash.  They are being driven by ordinals that have nothing to do with Bitcoin as it was intended.

Bitcoin is being turned into a tool for financial institutions and miners and is being disregarded for its use as digital electronic cash.

These changes benefit large organizations who will profit off of Bitcoin. THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT BITCOIN WAS INTENDED FOR!

Where did all of the people go who supported bitcoin as an individual freedom and sovereignty coin?

We should hold David Bailey responsible. His company is basically funding ordinals and runes. And they are responsible for spamming the Bitcoin chain thereby causing a high transaction fee. Even though it seems they have a lot of money to spend, like the one where people spent hundreds of dollars per block in transaction fee. They can't continue this for long. To save the Bitcoin network our advocacy should be getting the ordinals and runes off the network.

I admit that due to high transaction fees, Bitcoin has become unusable. It has become quite impossible to make any small payments in Bitcoin due to over-transaction fees. Mining rewards have decreased, and now miners will increase the fees somehow as well. Ordinal has made everything difficult right now regarding transaction fees. Due to a lot of ordinals transactions, the Bitcoin network has become congested. Bitcoin developers must find a solution. Otherwise, day by day, Bitcoin will be far from its goal. It would just be treated as an investment asset. 

It really is insanity still.
Even though it finally relaxed a bit but I still have an exchange pending where I can't push the transaction, it is so annoying. Made it short before the halving and didn't expect this to be such a big issue.
And here I am now now waiting for my btc transaction to finally get confirmed and get my exchanged funds to my wallet, it's driving me crazy.

As always when I handle btc, I always have the worst timing. I buy it goes down, I sell it goes up, I send btc which I need to arrive fast and then there is no block for like 90 minutes and the fees go up crazy and the transaction gets stuck.

BTC> what is Runes anyway?

Look at mempool, choose a random block and filter for OP_RETURN:

90% of transactions are OP_RETURN and if you click at a random transaction probably is a transaction from a address to the same address like this: https://mempool.space/tx/3bdc9fd75a4afcf6987a751f16eca6e28a92a59cf5673b428136e3171199c355

Bitcoin is no more used as peer to peer cash system! Is used only for memecoins, casino, and layer-2.

Thanks for David Bailey and Segwit developers.

You are correct that the mining reward in Bitcoin will gradually decrease over time, with transaction fees expected to become a more significant portion of miners' income. This transition is built into the Bitcoin protocol as part of its deflationary monetary policy.

It may take time for consensus to be reached on specific proposals, but the development community remains committed to improving the scalability and usability of the Bitcoin network while maintaining its core principles.

Complain does not help anything for us in our practice. We have to switch to other blockchains for our fund transfers when Bitcoin mempools are continuing to be spammed by Ordinals and Runes.

I believe these spam waves will come and go but it takes time for them to be resolved block by block and hypes on Ordinals, Runes become less and there will be less demands from them on Bitcoin transactions. It's certainly that we have to adapt to live with Ordinals and Runes so we must have other plans for fund transfers.

It's true to say Bitcoin blockchain during these attacks, are not helpful for the poor with small fund and even for the rich, if they are smart, they will not waste their precious satoshi for very expensive transaction fee.

Someone perfectly described what Bitcoin is these days and couldn't agree anymore. It sounded like a joke, but it's the reality, How did we get here?

Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic JPEGS System (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5474275.msg63167198#msg63167198)

How many genuine users are lately using Bitcoin for transactions and micropayments? I am pretty sure the number is very small. I personally have abandoned using Bitcoin to transact until the fees drop back to normal. I can't keep up with the stupid Runes and Ordinals madness.

How is the Bitcoin adoption supposed to push forward if we keep allowing the greedy JPEG guys to ruin the network?

But, but, you can still move $1 million in 10 minutes paying only $100, do that with your bank.! /s


Nope, the fees should be driven only by supply and demand.
As long as you obey the rules of the protocol your transaction has priority only if you pay more!
Funny how one moment we're going permissionless, decentralized, or under government control, then we need some higher-up to start labeling what's worth and what's not worth the space in the chain.We hate a police state but somebody please call the police!!!  :D :D :D

Nobody is forcing you to use this Bitcoin, just like we told big blockers years ago to go and have their own big blockchain, if you don't like ordinals and runes make your own Bitcoin!


 

I think adaptation is something we all need to accept because even if the wave of BRC and RUNE passes there is no guarantee that a new concept will not be created and we will continue to fall into this situation. I have a feeling that someone wants bitcoin to be a game for the rich, they want to take the poor out of the game. Surely retail investors will not only feel uncomfortable but they will soon look for alternatives and altcoins will be their choice.

There have been several threads in the past questioning whether bitcoin like gold and real estate, will become a game for those with a lot of money, and I see that becoming a reality.

I agree and I shared my thinking that they can come and go, many times. Except if Bitcoin developers can do something to stop these attackers. I really consider them as attackers, not actual users of Bitcoin blockchain.

They know that it's more easily to be known if they deploy their inscriptions on Bitcoin blockchains than altcoin blockchains and they see opportunities to make noise, get rich with Bitcoin blockchain. They will not abandon their rich games if the bull market is still here but actual Bitcoin users deserve to use the blockchain in either bull or bear market.

Or we can let them have it their way and burn off their funds if they decide to continue with their bollocks. They've done this with Ordinals and it relaxed after weeks of it bugging the chain. Runes is clogging the mempool simply because it's a new thing and a lot of people are wanting to get in on the hype train. Give it some time and the hype will die down, alongside the enormous fees that people are paying now to get a transaction confirmed.

stompix loves ordinals and runes and doesnt want them to stop.. reveals more about what he cares about most.. and it sure isnt an effective bitcoin network

funny how those that dont want the annoyances(exploits/congestion/fee war/scams) to stop say these same things: (not verbatim, but summarised)
"if you dont like cores roadmap leave"
"dont tell core what they should do for bitcoin"
"no one should stop or demand core do things for the benefit of bitcoiners"
"if you want to Nack, critique, scrutinise core, expect to get moderated/banned from all technical levels of discussion, even if your objections are proven correct"

"we should REKT other brands that want to propose changes, coz its not core"

"if you want to propose something for bitcoin thats not core conception, create a new network and see who follows"

"even if junk metadata is not validated, we should allow it cos censorship-resistance"
"if you want to use bitcoin as a bitcoiner please stop using bitcoin and move to this subnetwork we promote"

"small sat movements containing non-validated junk metadata belongs on bitcoin.. validated small sat purchases of real utility dont belong on the bitcoin network, dont use bitcoin to buy coffee or pizza or pay bills, but dont stop scams, junk from being added"

"dont stop the junk small spam but stop the genuine purchases as they are unfit for the network"
"the network is unfit for every genuine bitcoiner but lets not stop the junk as they deserve to exist on the network"

and variations of that nonsense
and none of this nonsense is helpful.. its the opposite

Thanks for that! Too many spam transactions.

I don't agree with runes and ordinals on the bitcoin blockchain, but as bitcoin is a free network, it is difficult to prohibit people from putting things there, the free market is what will say whether this will evolve or not, unfortunately in the meantime we have to pay huge amounts of transaction fees, it's a shame, I also wish this would end soon.

There are periods of time when it becomes very expensive to send small amounts of Bitcoin. It does impose a kind of 'mandatory HODL time period' for small-scale Bitcoiners. I wonder about the implications on the Bitcoin ecosystem and price.
 
The devs have not implemented anything to counter the blockchain spam.

It is a huge problem. So what is the solution here? Further Lightning development?

https://i.ibb.co/tX0zC3f/image.png
source: https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee

I agree that with Bitcoin, a longer holding time, a better chance for a holder to get more profit but I really dislike situation when we have to hold our bitcoins while we don't want to hold it with a funny reason behind. We have no other choices because of very expensive transaction fee.

It is not a good advertisement for Bitcoin because we have keys (private keys), we have coins and we have need to move our bitcoins whenever we want. Can not do it because of expensive transaction fee, is a big barrier to bring more new people to Bitcoin community. It's big fear that you have bitcoin but can not do it, because if you do it, when transaction fee is unrealistic expensive, you will convert your bitcoins to satoshi dust.

This is what I doubt, is there any group interest behind increasing transaction fees and they don't want transaction fees to decrease? I will not rule out the possibility that miners are behind brc, rune games because they are clearly the ones who benefit the most and the group of miners is also considered a large group of whales in the market.

Before that we had BRC-20 and so far there haven't been any proposals to improve bitcoin's congestion. It's true that everything will pass and transaction fees will return to normal, but there is also no guarantee that spam similar to rune, brc will never be created again.

The network is very congested every few hours the transactions increase it seems I can't make any transactions today with Bitcoin.

It seems there's no chance to make a transaction today with less fee or a transaction with enough fee that we can submit on Viabtc but the problem is I've waited for almost 6 hours but no available free submissions on ViaBTC it seems there are many users are waiting for free submission? or they temporarily remove the available free submission what do you think?

So long as scaling continues to be done in the light of what will be most beneficial to the developers coding it and not what will work best (which at this point is very obviously merged mining like satoshi was steering Bitcoin towards), then new users during peak periods will immediately be funneled to using altcoins. Lightning is dead, Ordinals/Runes killed it. We need to move on from that failure.

Totally sucks right? Which you do know that you cant really be able to make out some transaction due to high transaction fees. Yes, it might not be that much of an issue for those people who do have tons of
money but for those who are just that average then it would really be something that would make you hesitate on doing so. This is really indeed the first time in history on seeing Bitcoins fee price did reach almost $200 which it is really that too much for a certain transaction. The fee did reduce but it is really that still playing around $20 on the fee on which it is really just that too much. Im already that missing that $0.1-0.3 Fee.
For sure it would really be that taking up some a couple of days or might be a week before everything would be normalizing. We dont know on whats the reason with this kind of spam transactions
in the network whether those are legit tx or something that talks about spam or whatsoever.

It looks like Runes and inscriptions are being supported by miners in order to push the fees up.  It is no accident Runes were launched on the day of the halving.

Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer, decentralized network.  Lightning is not peer-to-peer and not decentralized.

The solution is to remove ordinals(Inscriptions and Runes) and make the full 4MB blocks available to transactions which will make the network more efficient.

This is not complicated.  It is common sense if you believe that Bitcoin is "electronic cash".

You said it yourself, the support is too large from parties, like miners, who profit off of huge fees. As long as the incentive is there, nobody wants to do anything against it. Which is backwards, short-term thinking and will set Bitcoin back and ruin its image. What else are we to do but improve already working solutions? (even if they are merely half-baked)

It had to be an 200 IQ plan because they launched something useless, hoping that people will get interested and throw money at them, driving the fees up and making them earn more from every block, despite halving. I don't blame the ones that launched it, but the flock of sheep who outbid one another to be in the first block after the halving and continuing to pay insane amounts of money per transaction.]

Someone opened a shop selling dog poo and you bought it. Who's to blame, you or him?

Fees are back to being manageable if you're willing to wait a few hours then you can pay less than 150 sats.

I think the reason behind about this is many people wants to be part of the blockhalving history and there is a runes currently minting on the Bitcoin blockchain which is I think the reason why the transaction fee keeps increasing it almost 2 weeks when the transaction fee is high before block halving and now after block halving the fees is pretty expensive retailers or smallholders can't able to make a transaction due to fees which is higher than the amount they want to send.

There's no choice but to wait or if I'm lucky enough to see a free submission on ViaBTC I will include it right away before it becomes 0.



It is more likely a plan or a manipulation to me which is why there are runes or inscription minting nowadays is to keep the Bitcoin price at the current level this is just my prediction they use it to congest the network so that people can't sell their BTC while block halving remember the recent bearish last week that keeps all crypto collapse during that week and suddenly transaction fees gradually increasing before block halving? People panic to sell so they use runes and inscriptions to keep the network congested and to avoid retailers and holders selling their coins. What do you think?

It will be hard to do so, yes but it is possible. Many people are constantly trying to look for other improvements and upgrades so I am pretty sure that one way or another we can get one to reverse the impact of ordinals.

Your passion is amazing and you can definitely do that. Just make sure that you have a clear and detailed points to present to the community. I am sure many share the same sentiment as you, me included.

This is a much bigger issue than high fees.  We have to stand up for Bitcoin as it was intended. This is about "purely peer-to-peer transactions" and personal freedom.

Bitcoin was intended to solve one of the biggest problems we face as a race and if we don't make sure it survives as "Purely peer-to-peer electronic cash" everyone loses!  The high fees and slow network are a huge problem!   

just remember its not a physics/technical limit. its a dev politics limit. which can be fixed by code once we sort out whos governing the code

one of bitcoins native solutions that made it great was a solution to the byzantine generals problem of governing code.
it used to be able to have multiple "reference client" brands(generals(plural)) on the same network all proposing paths forward where the majority would agree on a path which all generals would agree on to move forward

but got turned into a singular major-general(monarchy/federation) of one brand/controller..
its like united states removing the state senators/govorners/congress and only relying now on executive orders of federal government..

we need to get back to a system without a federal system [singular ruling class with one idealism that counters its peoples needs]
and open it up again to democracy of multiple states(representatives/repositories) that unite/vote on a common good of the people

     When things like this happen, users may change their minds to hold bitcoin in the long run. Because the things that happen over and over again in reality. Especially in these times, there are more opportunities to invest in the top altcoins that appear in the market that have the potential to provide greater profits than bitcoin.

     These are the facts that other investors have gradually realized. Yes, bitcoin is proven and tested, but as its value increases, the chances of investors making a large profit from this asset also decrease. Whereas in other top altcoins, your profit is higher, not insignificantly, you can repeat more than 20x your capital, while in bitcoin, the capital you will use here will not reach 10x.

Well it can't be helped that is the network we can only use for bitcoin transactions, right now the network is congested caused by many factors and because the halving event just finished added by runes who pushes to make the network congested but do mind that this is only temporary, over the time the fees will gradually decrease and will be back into single digit so what we can only do is wait, we dont have any other choices there is light network but if you will only use it into single transaction with a certain address then it is not recommended, anyway if the transaction can be hold or not that urgent then its better to wait for the fees to calm down before committing into a transaction or else you will really need to pay the high transaction fee but it will be a waste. Even now, we still don't know how long this kind of transaction fee will last, but if it takes too much longer, then there will be a negative effect on the bitcoin market.

I'm pretty sure if bitcoin's price rose the way it did over the years but fees stayed low and no changes were made, the assholes would have barged their way into the market anyway but I say fuck 'em anyhow.

And yes, bitcoin was intended to be a p2p form of cash, but:

1) That was a solution in search of a problem, i.e., there was never a public outcry for an alternative to fiat.  Even in countries that experienced hyperinflation, people just used another stable fiat currency.  Hell, even in 2015 or so most people hadn't even heard of bitcoin.

2) Right from the get-go (at least from what I've read in threads from the early years here) people were focusing on bitcoin's price, though there was discussion about merchant adoption and sales of things on the forum and, of course, on the dark web.  But as time went on and bitcoin kept rising, all that talk about companies accepting bitcoin fell off a cliff and it basically became an investment.  And I might add that nobody forced anyone to think of it that way.  It just happened.


LOL.  I've been here long enough such that I should know things like that, but I swear every time I start reading anything technical about crypto my eyes glaze over.  Not out of boredom or disinterest, mind you, but because I don't speak the language of the technical wizards who wrote the code, did the math, the cryptography, whatever.  I studied the wrong thing in college.

Pretty simple, buy your own ASICs, join a censorship pool, mine blocked that don't contain ordinals or runes.
But yeah, this involves doing something that might make you lose money, be highly uncomfortable if you live in a flat, need maintenance, and need some upfront cash, so no wonder everyone is screaming for others to do it.

I love the bitching about miners, nobody showed mercy when we were barely paying the bills, and nobody was thinking of the ones that would need to shut down at the halving, it was all business, well...now you have a business  ;)

You want to do something, go here:
https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=00020240402210032893O1Et7keX0682
grab one of those and mine to ocean.xyz that's luke's pool..

BTC> My opinion at the moment aligns with Maximalist like Matthew Kratter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwSN5lKeNEY

Youtube Gemini summarise:

“ This video is about Bitcoin Runes and its negative impacts on Bitcoin.

The speaker of the video, Matthew Crder, argues that Bitcoin Runes is a scam and will likely cause financial loss for people. He mentions that some tokens issued on Bitcoin Runes have dropped over 90% in value within just 24 hours. [1:02]

The creator of Bitcoin Runes, Casey Rmore, is also criticized for his involvement with ordinals and inscriptions, which are other supposedly scammy protocols. The speaker finds Rmore's blog disturbing because it contains content related to bestiality. [1:12]

Bitcoin transaction fees have skyrocketed because of the minting of Bitcoin Runes. The speaker claims that this spam is causing denial-of-service attack on the Bitcoin network, making it expensive to conduct financial transactions. [1:20]

The speaker believes that this spam is a result of unethical crypto VCs trying to profit from Bitcoin. He argues that companies and individuals who promote Bitcoin Runes or similar protocols should be called out. [1:30]

The speaker mentions a few ways to fight against Bitcoin Runes and similar scams. One way is to boycott Bitcoin mining pools that include a lot of Bitcoin Runes transactions in their blocks. The speaker recommends using Ocean, a non-KYC mining pool that allows users to choose block templates that filter out garbage transactions. [1:40]

Another way is to run Bitcoin knots, an alternate version of Bitcoin Core that has better filters for spam transactions. The speaker mentions a few people to follow on Twitter to learn more about this topic, including Bitcoin mechanic, Luke Dasher, Jock Muko, and Leo Half. [1:50]”

BTC>