Bitcoin Forum

Do you think bitcoin layer2 will come ?  :)

Bitcoin layer 2 already exist since 2018 it's Lightning Network, many people have use it till now https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning

If you mean Layer 2 is DeFi (a fake decentralized finance that's actually centralized) where you can easily connect your wallet to other sites without need to login or transfer your coins, it's not possible and Bitcoin don't need it at all.

i think he meant will devs actually realise the failure of LN and decide to start from scratch actual subnetworks that actually do perform as promised/expected without the bugs, issues, flaws.. to actually offer its niche promises it proposes

as for "many people"
well looking at the user count numbers of bitcoin CEX services (hundreds of millions), looking at the UTXO's (186mill)
and then compare that to the number of LN nodes(where there are many LN nodes servicing just one entity) and channels its not actually that "many"(not even 1%)

..
but to answer the OP's question
bitcoin should still scale onchain on the bitcoin network and not have devs trying their schemes to get people to abandon bitcoin network for LN.. however there will be and could be new design subnetworks that offer different service/business/utility niche models that people could use aswell as the bitcoin network, for different reasons..
its just going to take a while for the sponsored deals that corporations pledged to devs to fulfil in regards to LN.. to finalise and settle up(end of contract), to then free the devs from their contracts so that devs can then be free to work on those other things, but for now they only support/promote the pathway and roadmap of offramping people to LN as thats where the money(sponsorships) are.

at the moment sponsoring companies wanting LN to populate prosper are still under the delusion that devs(whom already admit issues with LN are unfixable) will somehow find work arounds to fix LN, so they stil fund these projects of LN.
however with many great examples of LN failures on masse(el salvador TWICE) some companies may wise up soon that they have been paying a sponsorship for a dead chicken. and decide to re-assign their sponsorship pledges for a different subnetwork design that actually learns from LN's mistakes.. but as always we have to wait and see and wait, and wait.

It is possible, though like most things that are new developments, they should be used with caution and due diligence...but that does not mean it does not exist or is not possible. That's entirely a false statement. I think you should reconsider posting in the fashion that you have...making such bold and certain opinions when they aren't true can be considered as misinformation. As of right now, factually speaking, your post would be considered as misinformation to many (no offense intended).

Also, to claim that the entirety of Layer 2 DeFi on EVMs are "fake decentralized" is a very bold statement. I can understand your sentiment, but it is not appropriate to call the entirety of a large ecosystem that does include legitimately decentralized applications (through smart contracts) "fake". A lot of legitimate people are and have put hard work into creating new use-cases in the Ethereum ecosystem, and some have done a great job doing so. Uniswap, aave, just to name a few, are great protocols. There are many more out there though I won't go into naming names for the sake of validating this fact (I don't need to, it should be obvious to anyone who is actually keeping a close eye on all technologies).

To address the OP and defy the opinion that layer 2/defi/browser-based wallets etc. aren't possible...
Bitmask (https://bitmask.app/) is an interesting project that has all of the claims of a private, decentralized extension where users have full sovereignty. It highlights that it is indeed possible to have a metamask-like wallet to interact with the ethereum-like ecosystem that has been forming in the Bitcoin ecosystem for the last few years. It also open source, which is an important prerequisite before posting about it.

In my opinion, Ethereum will be superseded by the Bitcoin DeFi, NFT, etc. ecosystem, as the same functionalities previously exclusive to Ethereum/EVM networks start to work just as well for Bitcoin. It's not just possible on Bitcoin, this transition seems to be happening. More below...


Yes, many projects are paving the way behind the curtains. So-much-so that it seems even veteran of this forum aren't aware of the integration of decentralized finance into the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Think of EVM/Ethereum as the sandbox, and the integrations that are being developed in Bitcoin as the iterations of what worked in this sandbox, built with compatibility for Bitcoin.

It's definitely not finished, but it is definitely happening. Look at CORE, orange, even icp have come up with some cool and truly decentralized solutions. There are probably a lot more now though I was witnessing this all starting over the last year, pausing over the last few months, there are probably many more legitimate names than I've named out there by now.

OP (or anyone else for that matter) if you have any names that you want an insight on, I'm happy to have new names sent to my DMs so I can look into them. You help me by sharing new names, I help you by delving in with my expertise of what's actually using decentralized & open-source technology, and what's just using those buzz words (I'll never give financial advice, but just see things for what they are for you).

To anyone who gets told something is not possible, laugh at them! Nothing is impossible. Heck, take any of what Bitcoin can do and mention it in 2007, and what would the response be? "That's not possible!" and yet...here we are.

the whole "will it come" is much like the web3 "will it come"
everyone knows web1 was the 2D basic html pages that were like notice boards forums, FTP hosting and information pages.
everyone knows web2 is the current gen of interactive web services like cloud hosting, multimedia/streaming, social media and smartphone apps
where web3 is suppose to be the next gen of standards where servers host 3D landscapes of VR, which can allow users to interact and share data, buy products in a online VR setting, where the 3D VR landscape can communicate to and from the realworld of "internet of things" devices. meaning buying milk in VR will cause a real world retailer delivery system to deliver milk to the person real address or the person real life fridge can order the milk and the person can in VR world follow a VR truck on google maps  showing it on its way (and many other idea's not yet conceived or released yet)

where by at this moment web3 stuff is still not really as expected nor reaching the standards first described.. which is the same sentiment of subnetworks of crypto not really meeting the standards of effectiveness, security, reliability and such


it is possible by you having a master ID that logs in via your web3 VR headset and that then gives you access to then transition between servers/vr lands without needing to manually log in each time as they will recognise you via your VR headset id when you transport between servers thus you keep your wallet/ID local to your VRheadset.. but as said when describing web3.. its just not ready to do that as expected just yet

I've seen people mentioning different definition and example of layer 2. If you consider sidechain as layer 2, then you should know Liquid network and Rootstock already exist since many years ago. Although if you refer to rollup-based L2, technology for that (such as BitVM) is still in works.

Bitcoin side chains are coming too. If you are missing these projects, follow that discussion thread on Bitcoin side chains.

• Sidechain Observer - Projects & current state of development (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5496743.0)
• Bitcoin Layer Two Technologies (https://www.lopp.net/bitcoin-information/other-layers.html#sidechains)

It's far from what we were expecting...

https://i.postimg.cc/7Pft6k2X/1.jpg

Imagine living in 2D world with all it's constraints in real life.. that's what we're dealing with here, 3D browsing would open a whole new world of possibilities, efficiency (if done right) would be much higher than surfing on this 2D wave.

I am surprised about this question because Bitcoin already has Layer 2 only that the adoption is not encouraging and that is for obvious reason. The low scalability of Bitcoin has always been an issue which is why many projects and Defis turned to other blockchains to actualize their goals. Maybe this will be better in years, I don't know, and no one can give that answer satisfactorily if the scalability challenge remains.

People wanting Bitcoin to go mainstream ASAP while still not having a viable solution to the scalability issue is like wanting to participate in Le Mans 24 Endurance race with a Prius.

I think Bitcoin Layer 2 is definitely coming. It's already being worked on, with projects like the Lightning Network leading the way. These solutions aim to make Bitcoin faster and cheaper to use by handling transactions off the main blockchain. As these technologies develop, they'll help Bitcoin overcome some of its current challenges and make it more useful for everyday transactions.

Please can someone educate me what bitcoin layer2 is all about??

https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/134479?hl=en (https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/134479?hl=en)

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Without going into too much details, BTC layer 2 networks are off chain protocols that are built on top of the BTC blockchain, these protocols have what they offer, i.e. BTC Layer 2 Lightning Network is a 'solution' to scalability and also high tx fees, sidechains such as the Liquid Network is also an example of layer 2 in the BTC network.

layer2 used to be subnetworks that only wrap around(connect/communicate) to the specific mainnet they are locked to, but then that changed as most subnetworks now bridge between and reference different mainnets, which kinda defuncts the word layer and defuncts the "2" as its no longer a skin/layer of one system
hense why people now talk in terms of bridges and subnetworks instead of layers.. it also stops the misconception when people who falsely promote subnetworks as being better than (solution/above/ontop of) a mainnet by saying its a layer 'ontop' or version 2 of a mainnet

prime example is z-tight using those exaggerated buzzwords to pretend they are better than the mainnet

Making a topic like this without giving more detailed information on the intentions being means is just as nothing than creating a sense of spamming or off topic, post, concerning layer two, this has already been into existence, then the question to be asked here is on what exactly do you want to ask, know or give concerning the layer two protocol, and back to the response from Franky1, i don't think that was what he exactly mean, except he clarifies for that.

According to statistics and user reports, it's losing traction and getting more centralized.
https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning (https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning)

I suggest you to read the replies of members above your post, L2 means layer 2 networks that are built on the first layer or main layer of the coin we are talking about as in terms of BTC the main layer is BTC network but if we talk about l2 network they are built on the layer of BTC network and require us to pay the lesser fee and some are more secure, more compatible, faster, there are different versions of L2 like a taproot, Lighting network, Liquid network, and now we are seeing many apps being built of BTC network.

These apps are leveraging the L2 networks built for BTC on its main layer. To understand it in short, its like a shortcut way to perform the task using the main way. Or in another way, BTC is the main road, while the L2 are the fast lane where the tx are cost effective and fast.

They are here already and many of them sucks, if this is your thing make sure you stick with the most popular ones.

To me, they are Lightning Network and Stack.

But right now we have so many, which open doors to rugpull working in progress, many of them will do their devilish thing after the final Bitcoin pump.

Lightning Network is already here for years now, it is increasing in adoption all the time but still relatively low use case, especially with comparison to Layer 1. Hopefully as time passes Lightning can be integrated into Layer 1 so it gains widespread use. Layer 2 is able to be used for small transactions, the fees are tiny, I really hope it develops more.

LN has hit dead end, as of now it's a waste of time developing it further.

Hopefully some other project will gain traction and takeover what LN has promised for so many years.

Agree about lesser fees and faster transacting time but to say that they are more secure? I doubt that, especially if we are talking about Bitcoin. Bitcoin must be the most secure network among all.

Indeed there are plenty of new stuffs now that we think are not possible with Bitcoin anymore but it's just that humans are too smart and not contented. L2's can give great benefits but what is nice to know is that they don't heavily charge us, though if only the main chains do the same thing, then we may not also see them. The short cut you said can be true because it may take them a long time to improve the main chains and it can also cost them more money.

Before any other layers came, we already have Bitcoin Lightening network, it's a base layer for Bitcoin and has existed for long time but the adoption is low and not use compare to the onchain transactions because using any layer other than Bitcoin original layer breaks Bitcoin privacy and your privacy and everything you do isn't too private like the typical Bitcoin network but the network is fast compared to the main Bitcoin network.

There is also one called Rootstock side chain to Bitcoin, this one has some special of Ethereum EVM, like you can run transactions on it layer and do all the transactions you like and be able to use smart contracts in transactions and you can convert your original Bitcoin from their own native network Bitcoin but all this still doesn't give you the privacy Bitcoin will gives you and this why Bitcoin network remain the best but transaction fee is discouraging a times.

L2 has been around for a while. In terms of open source protocols you've got LN, so that's the main one that provides instant super cheap payments. And then there are various other networks / sidechains and whatnot already existing or being developed by companies that can do a variety of things.

L2 just isn't used much yet because it isn't needed. Payments are barely needed because there is barely any merchant adoption. It will take time for the relevant use cases to actually start being in demand to cause a need to L2 usage to actually grow. But L2 is definitely here and been here for a while.

Lighting Network is a failure, even developers said themselves. I don't know the technical difficulties that have place when developers work on building layer 2 but I know that for it to succeed, it needs to be easy to use. Setting up a lighting network is difficult if you are not a reasonable technical person. It might be easy for many of Bitcointalk members but it's way too complicated for many people too, we shouldn't forget it. If developers start building a new layer 2 solution and that solution will be as complicated as LN, then there will be no success for such a layer 2 solution, so it will be meaningless if it comes.

lol lots of people use LN. It is definitely not a failure. Some people don't like LN, that doesn't make it a failure. It is very useful for payments. Maybe one day someone comes up with a better a payments solution for Bitcoin, maybe not, but in the meantime LN is very useful for that use case.

If somebody built a digital currency system that could, say, scale to handle every daily transaction on Earth (https://haypenny.net/whitepaper.html), then that would be the ultimate "layer 2" not just for Bitcoin, but for every manner of investment instrument.

Of course no viable layer 2 solution will use the blockchain architecture, since it's far too slow and expensive--and pretty much useless for a layer 2 in any case...

seems you joined into the 'committee uniting lightning trolls' (cult)
fun facts:
payment event success rate of LN is worse than the amount of payments bitcoin drops unconfirmed
the more popular LN gets the less functional it becomes(bottlenecks of liquidity issues for routes)
LN cant function for all bitcoin users, just a niche subclass of users
LN does actually have bugs and flaws which LN devs themselves admit to
"lots" of people is not even 0.5% of bitcoiners
LN has lost node count, lost channel count in 2024. even when ''cult' were promoting that CEX exchanges were adopting it*

*Cex exchanges have tens to hundreds of millions of users, yet LN doesnt even have 100k nodes nor 100k channels
the amount of nodes and channels decreased in 2024. meaning that CEX are not causing LN adoption. just centralisation of partial swapping of  reserves between CEX's(a VERY small amount of reserves(again not even 0.5%)

LN is not the "solution for bitcoin" because even without the bugs, its design model is not fit for purpose for all bitcoin users needs for bitcoiners to abandon bitcoin in preference of LN. LN just cant do what it promised. which is why so many people are 7 years later waiting for actual real/proper code upgrades to scale bitcoin or waiting for multiple subnetworks of different designs to flourish to fit the different needs of bitcoiners niche utility