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introduction

what is F.I.R.E

Read More:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_movement

In conclusion, this is a movement where you can immediately achieve early retirement as quickly as possible.

summarized from various sources, here are some tricks to achieve F.I.R.E

Source: Google

design your life for the future, don't just think about eating or buying snacks today.

For those who are currently undergoing this movement, perhaps you can share your journey here and for those who really want to start this movement, you can ask and have a good discussion here.

Early retirement is bullshit for me, actually I'm stuck in this cycle.

I invest like 80% of my salary for many years, technically I can retire now because 4% of my investment is enough to cover my annual expenses. But, no one knows if I get sick in the future, my wife turn to be materialistic woman, school fees rise really high than 4% annually etc.

If I quit my current job and choose to the job that I want which likely earn bigger in the future, if I didn't make it, I will regret, at the same time I can't back to my old comfort job. Don't say take two jobs at the same time because the first job requires me to work for full time.

Apart from the risk associated with the uncertainties that comes with retiring early, after retirement, it is always as though the next point is death of you don't make proper plan for what productive activity you should be doing after retiring. for me, i don't make a big deal out of early retirement because in the process of working, i get to become really engaged which makes life less boring. it is not as though it is a bad thing to set early retirement plan most especially knowing that you won't always be as strong and relevant as you are at your prime. you should do it but that should not be the whole essence of life. while still working, you could invest into an asset that will serve as your retirement plan or some sort of a budgeted amount for our luxury if you so desire.

you can slowly talk to your partner about how to design a good future together and start a frugal life, it won't take long to make this movement a habit, the goal is to achieve financial freedom, the sooner the better.

for children's school fees, you can include that in the list, you can set aside the income you have for your education costs until they all graduate from school (sorry, not financial advice, I am starting this movement)

Saving 50-75% of your income just isn't realistic for most people. It's mostly achievable if someone is in a high income job or a low cost living area, most people cannot adhere to it fully. That said, the focus on early retirement planning is a win since most Americans still lack adequate retirement savings. Even if full FIRE isn't your goal, adopting parts of it-like regular investing or budgeting smarter, can make a big financial difference.

And I think doing FIRE depends on assumptions such as consistent market growth and low inflation, both of which are not guaranteed. For example, the 4% withdrawal rule may not work if the markets are in a volatile period. While the idea sounds attractive, for most individuals, keep the balance between saving and enjoying life while planning for the future might make our life more meaningful. Flexibility and a backup plan are what make any version of FIRE realistic.

You have to be dedicated on this principle
We are living in a hard time where there's a lot of uncertainty. I like the principle, but I don't think I like the end goal of retiring. I would like to continue working even if I have passive income. The mind and body will feel differently if you keep them away from the things its been doing for many years, and that is work.
I like to be financially independent, but I like to keep my body and mind sharp through work.

It's a good idea, of course, for those who can afford to save on everything possible, and to be extremely intelligent and invest all that saved money in something that will eventually enable them to retire earlier than it is determined by law. However, most people cannot afford such a thing because they already live a lifestyle where they eat at home, buy cheap groceries and cheap clothes, and yet they still lack the money to live their lives without fear of whether they will have anything to put on the table tomorrow.

I'm not saying that someone should eat lobster and caviar every day, but what kind of life is that if you eat rice, bread, or some cheap processed meat every day? Sometimes giving up everything that makes life life is completely counterproductive, because by the time you reach your early retirement, maybe you won't need all that money you saved.

If early retirement could only make your life uncomfortable in the long run, then what’s the essence of pushing yourself to do it? I know we all want to retire early as soon as we have some investments that paid off, but it’s just that some circumstances won’t allow it.

But anyway you can take my advice, take your job if you are still capable to make it productive, and never cease to invest in potential ones, and when you feel like you can’t work anymore, and your investments are already making a passive income, that could be the perfect time to retire. While early retirement could benefit others, but it’s not for everyone especially those are breadwinners in life.

What do you do when you retire early, you can no longer focus on your finances when you take early retirement, because your salary is no longer the same as when you were still active, as well as your expenses, you have to bear your own financial expenses in all mattersdifferent when you are still active.

Likewise with investment, don't do it during early retirement, in fact you have to do it while you are still actively working, your economy is still stable and increasing, in my opinion, early retirement means you can no longer be independent and focus on your economy, For this reason, use the period when you are still active, not during early retirement, to focus on finances.

Even in retirement, some people will still be on the look out for business and money making opportunities because you can retire from a job, but not from the need to get or make money. Profitable investments at a young age will help ensure a better retirement.

After investing from a younger age, financial maturity and wisdom is also necessary to make sure that you do not eat the investments before they mature properly.

I have always nursed the idea of retiring early because the rat race is becoming unbearable. The dream of controlling my daily activities is becoming stronger every day. But each day it becomes clearer that the income from my job alone will not be enough to save for my retirement.

Spending less than your income is a good way to save and invest for the future. But it becomes a problem when an individual earns less than the amount he needs to survive. This is my condition now because of inflation which is causing the prices of basic needs to skyrocket.

The only means for me to achieve early retirement is to have a side job. It could be an extra job or a business so that I can be able to save from the extra income.

Very a few persons amidst many that mounts pressure on themselves about retiring early are likely to achieve success with their early retirement plans. And the reasons aren't far fetched from the underlying circumstances that are beyond their control. Health may fail, economic crisis may loom, conflict outbreak and unplanned family essential needs can distort or ambush these plans especially when your annual earning on normal circumstance still pass some difficulties due to size.

One emergency can fuck this up though. So yeah, I know lowering your expenses as much as possible can lead to higher possible parts to invest, but invest on both your health and your future. They're both needed and imporant in actually retiring. After all, you can only spend what you've earned if you're alive.

I've personally done something similar ish, not that I've ever spent THAT much on random expenses though tbf. No netflix, no tv subscriptions, just me. Maybe some books every now and then but that's about it. Been pretty consistent as well with how I eat. Similar to what I've said earlier though, slowly realized the importance of personal health so planning to incorporate some diets and exercise into my daily life now (or next year).

If you've been enjoying your job for decades and you've been able to support the family you have well, I think it seems like you're at least somewhat satisfied with the life you have, as if your entry into the bitcoin or crypto industry is just an additional source of income for you.

But not all employees are in the same position as you, and have the same good salary as you, and from what I see of you, you also seem to be good at managing your money.
And other employed people like you should be like that too.

If I have an investment that can pay all my bills and I do not have to worry about uncertainties, I am definitely going to retire early. To me, cutting down on expenses just to save or raise money that will sustain me during retirement is not just enough, I do not really love this part. If I am going to live below my means inorder to retire early, then I am really not ready for any of such retirement. I'm gonna work till I get old ;D

Anyone who wishes to retire early should start earlier enough to invest in bitcoin and other investments that can still give him returns during retirement so they do not rely on only savings. Infact, anyone who is going to rely on only savings is gambling with his future and will definitely live in regrets after retirement.

The article mentioned "savings" doesn't mean it's savings in banks, it's more like about total money you have.

Definitely you need to invest your money because in FIRE movement, you live from the return you get from your investment. Usually they will suggest to invest that give 7% return, 4% for spending and 3% to invest in order to hedge against inflation rate.

During retirement, we're supposed to live from the wealth we have made, not drain our wallet.

Best way to acquire your FIRE status is to have lots of blue chip dividend paying stocks in your portfolio.

PEP, KO, MO, XOM, MCD, LMT are great examples if you live in the US.

If you live in some other country look into your own stock market because the US taxes the dividend payments (witholding tax) and it is kind of hard to get it back even if you don’t live there.

Owning Real Estate and collecting rent is another well working idea.

No matter which route you decide to follow, you better have a million USD net worth. Otherwise it won’t be enough for anything unless you live in an absolute crap country.

1 million usd, net 4% yield, gives you $3.3k monthly income before the taxes. After taxation you’ll probably end up with ~$2.2k. You tell me if it is enough for anything…

Op is a good suggestion but those are easier said than done because a partner whom there monthly salary is not enough for them will hardly think about that and not that they are not concerned about the future of there children but the stability is the problem because is always here and then to eat up a lot of money you have saved, when you have children unless you have a very high paid job will you be able to spend and keep for the future because children are very selective to almost everything, considering how costly things can be, so is a big deal, but to break through from being too dried up on this kind of situation is when you have already started the preparation before then such as a source that no matter how little the profit is it can feed your family so that your salary will not be tide up for immediate consumption anymore.

It's like while you are busy preparing for your early retirement, your mind and body have been lifeless already that you won't no longer benefit your early retirement then. That really happens to those who have highly sacrificed theirselves just to achieve their goals and targets in life. Only to realize in the end, life is not all about its future, but stick with the present first and live your life like it's your last.

I periodically watch the YouTube channel "Retire at 35". The author of this YouTube channel is a very talented marketer and evangelist of the FIRE strategy.

He made a lot of money helping various commercial companies increase their revenue. For his work, he asked for a certain percentage of the revenue received. This strategy helped him accumulate a large amount of money and start investing. He realized his dream - he retired at 35.

The author of the channel "Retire at 35" likes to repeat that capital is earned not on the stock market, but in other places. The stock (cryptocurrency) market is a financial instrument for saving, not for making money.

But we all know that it is better to take does risk than not wanting to try anything out at all and I don't see anything wrong with retiring early, there will be enough time, for you do venture into other things, and no matter how productive you idea is anything can still happen, so we have to decide exactly you want to do and even if it does not work there is always enough time for you to invest, and those that are retired early are more focused because they will need something to rely on because they won't just make a reckless decision when they know the out come.

Somtimes we have to consider, I know how young people want to give it there all and this is what makes it more intresting because, it is usually very easy for young people to do bussiness with and their is no way that it won't go well because of the kind of insight that young people have, and before the retirement I will better start investing early that is what safes us a lot of things because by now you want to retire and no plans yet then that is very bad.

Youtubers don’t make their money from trading or investing. They make money from views. So I automatically diss channels like the one you mentioned. Of course every once in a while they may come up with good info but you could find that info in pretty much in any entry level finance book which explains what FIRE is.

The one I like a lot is:

“Rich dad poor dad” from R. Kiyosaki. It gives you a great headstart.

To be honest early retirement and all that seems like a pipe dream to me considering the inflation and rising costs of even common groceries.

I have set up almost every type of investment I possibly can, dividend paying stocks, bonds, casino bankroll investments, precious metals and cryptocurrency. Only time will tell us how much these are going to be useful or useless in the future.

Besides, nothing makes things easier than a job that pays you well. So target that first at an early age.

Good point. Delayed gratification will lead us to better paths of our life. It might be difficult for now but soon you will realize that all of it was worth it and it will even bring you more benefits in the future even if you suffer for a little bit right now.This is why there should be savings for different kinds of things. Health insurance can save you inn cases like that. As per school fees, you are right that you can't truly retire yet until one of your kids graduate and have a job of their own because until then you do not know what can happen or what will your kid be doing. Life is difficult and early retirement is a dream that is very difficult to achieve.

I just found out about this, early retirement in my imagination is really beautiful considering how tiring it is to face all the problems in the working world but with the income that my partner and I get it is impossible for us to achieve early retirement.

maybe we should have more than 4 sources of income to achieve early retirement as soon as possible (sounds crazy and ridiculous lol) but for now I will just focus on what I am doing.

Everyone is targeting early retirement, but it seems like too good to be true especially that the sum of our expenses due to inflation is even higher compared to our net income monthly. Which means saving could still be out of the picture for now.

However, if there's a will, there's a way. If we can increase our side hustles so we can afford saving as much as investing, then early retirement could be highly achievable. But if opportunities aren't easily available for us, that only means we just have to live whatever the present give us and just pray for our future.

Did people really needed someone else to tell them "spend less than you earn, invest the surplus, you will end up rich", like did they not know this automatically? We are talking about simple mathematics here, of course if you invest your surplus and spend less and earn more, of course you will end up richer than otherwise. What did they think, they can spend more than they earn and could end up being rich or something? That makes no sense, you will end up in debt and poor.

All in all, we are of course talking about something that is growing more in community because people do not want to do this alone, and they have limited friends circle and only one or two others may, but with online community, they share their success and get love and attention for their savings and investments, so they have incentive to keep it going.

This is why I think it got more popular, the fact that if you can save a lot, people will give you likes, the fact that if you earn good, they will give likes, and if you invest good they will share likes, all of those likes makes people want to do it again and again, even better. That's the most important part of online communities, they are supportive to what you do.

I'm a guy who loves increasing income rather than reducing expenses, reason being that expenses are always pouring in from other means rather than just your concerns. If it's just about our personally, most people should be really rich, but we can't control that on our dependent and families without depriving them of necessities. So we should always try to increase our earnings rather than decrease our expenses. Now this does not encourage anyone to spend unnecessarily,  but we should really concentrate more on enlarging our earnings so we'll have more leverage on funds management.

Fat firing is being extremely dedicated to frugality maximize income or business exits to a four fund vanilla bland portfolio. $jepi, $jepq, $schd, $vym, etfs are the way to retire early and stay wealthy. Or 100% bitcoin

You're right mate.While we encourage increasing our source of income, but that does not mean that we should also increase our expenses. Because the reality of some people, most especially that comes from poverty and are now experiencing a little financial progress, they also elevate their lifestyle and spend more than before. And now, instead of saving which is the main goal, they end up getting into debt so they can cater their increasing needs. And for that, saving for early retirement might be getting even more delayed.

I have the feeling that most people are like that, just you are one of the few admitting it  ;)

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There are quite a number of drawbacks in trying to be cheap for a number of years and retire early:
* at the moment you'd want to start enjoying life you may not know how
* you may decide later on that you better give your money to your children instead of you enjoying them (nothing bad in it, as long as a proper middle ground is found)
* you may die off some accident and you'll miss the retire/enjoy part
* taxes usually differ if you cash in all the investments at once, instead of doing it on smaller amounts on longer periods of time (or simply investing less); so you'll give more money to the state

Bitcoin price should keep going up, so it's nice to invest some for a cozy retirement, maybe an earlier one, but imho going into crazy restrictions in the name of early retirement is a gamble you can too easily lose at.

I am not attracted to this movement, and in 5 to 10 years at the most I will be able to quit my job, or spend a year traveling around the world if I want to. Some FIRE stories are of a sub-human stinginess to reach the goal of financial freedom, and then when they get it they still find it hard to spend the money. Also, having no obligations, lots of free time and little to do ends up with some people dying from overdoses or things like that. Those who don't take that route end up going back to work, but in something that they want, that motivates them and being their own boss. Marc Cuban would be an example.

On the other hand I am also more in favor of increasing income rather than reducing expenses. At the beginning yes, someone who wants to improve his financial situation and starts now, the first thing he has to do is to start controlling expenses and income and save. But with time, if you get into this, you end up coming up with ideas to increase your income, so you end up being able to spend more while saving and investing more.

More than the FIRE movement, what I would recommend to everyone is to improve their finances, without obsessing and enjoying the process.

Well, for someone to invest consistently, one must have a stable job to generate regular flow of income. Investing without a reliable job is just a waste of time and money. However, the earlier you get a job, the better, because that will be your stepping stone to save and invest, and when that investment paid off, early retirement might be possibly obtained.

The problem now is if you are a low-income earner, investing won't be an easy venture. But if you take time to add more job to your current job, I think that may definitely work. You work harder not actually to acquire more of your needs or wants, but to sustain your investment until it gives you a passive income in the future.

FatFire sounds great at first but then people who look into it and suddenly realize it is called “Fat” for a reason. Only the best earners can afford to have that title.

What is the number nowadays for FatFIRE? I haven’t been visiting these communities for some time now. The minimum capital requirement is probably $2m while the optimal is $5m, that’s my guess.

In some parts of the world you could retire on $300k to $500k and still live like a king, at least according to their standards. I guess it still beats having to go to work.

If it is only about the design, I think it is only simple but the hard part is when we start the work. We should not think about it in advance though but we must still try. And if in case we really struggle, we will need to give it more time because we might still adapt on it.

Some says that we must think only about the present time but I think we still can't help it but to think about our future. So yeah, we are concerned about it but it is just like you said, we can hardly do a thing about it because we are also experiencing a financial issue. Apart from the expense that can eat our budget, there is also inflation that can do the same thing but there is also a fix for that and that fix is the same as preparing for our future, which is to invest.

I love the idea of the FIRE movement and try to navigate towards it, but like anything in life there is a balance. Some people will not earn enough to free themselves early or may have to spend large chunks of their salary on supporting a family, so they are unable to accumulate too much. On the other hand, there are some people who go for the extreme FIRE strategy but it looks like they suck all the energy out of their lives, living on a pittance while they save money and wasting the best years of their lives just hoarding money. The silly thing is the habits become so ingrained they may not even get the pleasure out of an early retirement that they are seeking. Better to save and invest, but leave yourself some room to have fun and explore.

I agree. Saving up is a good thing but nobody knows what tomorrow will bring.

And furthermore an early retirement sounds dull. There need to be periods of rest and work in a person's life but only work or only rest is not the right way. Life means movement, only the dead don't move.

Yes, the problem with most of us though is that we don't know how to save or invest when we are young and we don't think about our future until it's too late in our lives and then thinking back and says that we should have done this and that so there is a lot of regrets.

But I guess that is live itself, it's the unknown and we take risk, and it might not be good for us, but still we move on. But now that we are mature and still have time, then maybe we can correct our mistakes and be financially independent even in our late ages. And that is the beauty of life, we can continue to work, make money and learn from our mistakes. And yes, we are design to move and not rest, that's why when I go to the province and seeing farmers, who are in their 70's or 80's but they look young and strong because of their constant movement and battling life itself.

"Periods of rest and work". I like it. Much better than the idea of an early retirement is the one of a job you like (or at least you don't hate) and enough spare time to live a fulfilling life.

In addition, if the OP is worried about the long term viability of his plan and he won't rest because of the uncertainty about the future, then he should think about that first, because chances are that having so much spare time to think about things that could go wrong is not a good idea.

Inflation is here for good, so we can't do nothing but to accept and embrace it, even if it means dealing with financial struggles.

However, as human beings who still aim for future financial progress and stability, we need to get out from our comfort zone and deal things even if they're out of the context. That's the only key so we can move forward financially. The process could be tough and hard, but we can get there slowly and surely. I think that's how we should deal with the early retirement goal.

Early retirement plans and having a sufficient income structure are the desires of most people and maybe it is a hope that almost all of us want. But unfortunately we cannot achieve this opportunity because to build much better finances requires hard work with sufficient capital support. In economic conditions like today, it may be impossible to choose early retirement because maybe we still need work to meet our living needs, health costs and children's education.

We rarely see people taking early retirement steps if they are not supported by the ability to earn money stably outside of the work they are engaged in. The steps to take early retirement need to be carefully considered and maybe not everyone can do it and even those of us who have a little asset in bitcoin may not necessarily be able to make a policy to take early retirement.

Do you think all diseases are covered by health insurance? even the insurance cover your diseases, do you think they will give you the best service and best medicine? there's a big difference when you go to public hospital (where you can use insurance) and private hospital.

Yeah, the only difference is I'm just feel safer because if I get fired, I can still survive. But regardless I have a job or not, I will keep thinking how to grow my money, it's a never ending cycle. I mean, rich people are still go to work, so why should I quit?

I disagree, they do look strong, but they doesn't look young. Working outside get sunlight everyday and they still don't know about skincare products, they're look older than their ages.

Exactly, the job is the cornerstone of incoming money and how you spend or save that money is the next step, but that step will not work if the previous step was not existing. There are people in the community who dream big but have a small cap job, although no job is small, but we must aim towards progression and rising the corporate ladder, not just dream about early retirement.

Investing if started early on, can lead to a good corpus by the time you retire. But keeping a easy out mindset about investing then retiring will never work, inflation will burn you down.

Financials placed entirely in Bitcoin are also not a problem as long as it is based on comfort and also the desire of ourselves, because everyone can clearly see that the price increase that can occur more maturely and also crazier is only in Bitcoin even though other altcoins can also have a sharper increase in performance before they die and are thrown away by their own creators so that they can cause a deletion in the market because the volume of purchases has decreased. So if you want to put money on a more profitable and safer foundation, of course choosing Bitcoin is not wrong even though you are also interested in several other altcoins, but you need to see it clearly through its past history.

Making Bitcoin investment or cryptocurrencies as part of your early retirement plan is something that you shouldnt be that expecting too much, on which as long you do set out limits and able to move on once crypto investment go south then its not a bad option as we do all know. Dont put your eggs in one basket on which at the moment that you do able to make investment in different areas on which it does have that potential that could bring out some potential profits then you wont really be worrying too much if one of those will fail since you do know that there's still others on which they can be able to make up some recovery in case if there's loses. Early retirement is something that we do need on which we can still be able to enjoy our old years and having no sickness but we do know that not all will really be ending up into this situation but rather they will really be having that kind of life on where they do depends on 8-5 job on which this is really the usual case. If it was really that easy to be done, then all of us might already that reached out that financial freedom that we do all waiting or hoping for, but in reality then its not that just easy and thats why other people leaves out no choice but to accept on what their current fate is. It is really just that too sad that there are things that we do want to achieve but due to several factors we do end up on failing on achieving that.

To me, the term "early retirement" is an overrated thing. I'm not against it and it's a good thing but I feel it's not as smooth as it sounds. I would like to retire early of course but it's not realistic. How many people actually do retire early? I'm from a country where I have to secure the future of my kids and realistically speaking I don't think I will be able to do that with an early retirement.
Also, even if I could actually retire early, I don't think I would if there was still money to be made. I'm not built like that. I'm not going to lie and say I'd retire if I had $100 billion in Bitcoin right now, instead, I'll find a way to make more money.
So when people talk about wanting to retire early, I never relate to it. If I make the kind of money that can make me retire, I can always keep working and live whatever kind of life I want.

with the term early retirement perhaps for people who are successful in their work, or the business they are working on is quite successful, so they don't have to work too hard and enjoy early retirement, because their burden has been reduced in terms of finances because they are sufficient in terms of the finances they get.

I feel the same too. It seems too good to be actually true. Or it is a dream of escape from a job that the person never wanted to do. So they think of retiring early and escape the pain in a dream.

For those who are passionate about what they are doing, they would continue to work on their fields even after they retire.

If they are actually contributing to their field of work, they will be paid well, they will have the enthusiasm to continue their work and their mental health would not worsen.

Still investing should be done along with work side by side but it does not necessarily mean that everyone can retire early, most of them can never do this.

These are really solid and important points because if you are having good reputation into your work, and you are feeling comfortable then surely you need to enjoy this for as long as you can a which will give you extra money more experience and many other positive things which are not possible through you are going for the early retirement even many will be not agreed with this but this is still important and good way of keeping yourself busy.

We have too many examples as peoples are taking not retirement even they are facing problems, but they love to keep themselves in challenges and this is also way of their survive for long time having early retirement and going through for easy life usually have other consequences as well.

Can't agree anymore, I would say the same thing $100 Billion a total amount of money that I'm sure I can live peacefully in my retirement, I have no need to think about money anymore, I only care which place I should go, which activities I should do, or whatever I want.

If it's just having money 25x of our annual expense, it just only make me think I have a time to think what should I do next, but later I will back to be poor if I didn't earn fresh money.

I can believe if people do actually quit their jobs but I don't believe they will retire and stop working entirely. They can start a business that won't take most of their time. Most people still find ways to make more money. Even a man worth over $200 billion hasn't retired early.
I don't think it's smart to spend your money without putting it into things that will yield more money for you.
What makes sense to me working as,little possible and having investments, but just not working at all and having no investments at all at an early age is what I don't understand.

i have not worked since i got into bitcoin over a decade ago. for me its the escape from a fixed schedule, fixed income job rat-trap
without revealing age i still have between 10-30 years before im in my 60's
offering me time to go travelling and choose what i do with my time

if i want to start a business, i can. if i want to just do a hobby i can. its about the ability to say 'i can' instead of 'i wish i could'

coming to the conclusion that you no longer have to explain yourself to other people, no longer have to do things for others and you dont owe your time to anyone else but yourself

alot of people think that you just need to have enough deflationary growth/interest/dividend investment income to match the wage you were on to live the lifestyle you did. but you actually end up needing more to do the things you want to enjoy.
emphasis: entertaining yourself for the time you would have been working costs money.
so dont just jump out of work once you get to a equal income as your pay

luckily bitcoin outperforms any other investment so it has given me total freedom and i have not cared about what i buy or do or need to pay

because i travel i just paid my housing costs yearly as a lump payment.. which has also helped avoid the whole monthly bill accounting stress normal working scenarios had. i owe no one and nothing ever becomes due

getting to the point where you dont have to concern yourself with owing people money each month is a freedom in of itself, just being able to pay everything off or paying bills yearly instead of weekly/monthly is a good release of concern

getting to the point where you dont have to concern yourself with owing people your time each day is a freedom in of itself, you regain your own self identity and choices in life

to me its not about ending work and just staying home, its about travel, its about experiences, its about trying new things.
(writing this post whilst on a plane to a country i have never visited before)

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advice to anyone wanting to retire early
1. dont just aim to get passive income that matched your employment income. when you have freedom, it actually costs you more money to do things to fill in the time which you would have been working
 a. ensure the deflationary growth/interest/dividend/passive income exceeds your needs you had when working.
 b. dont slowly eat into/drawdown your hoard/wealth each month..

2. bitcoin offers a better than 4x growth per cycle, meaning when you sell at a ATH, you dont (and shouldnt) sell all. but still able to take out income to live for 4 years and also buy back in to accumulate during the post-ATH correction. meaning your hoard still grows in sats and $$ value even when you take out lumps per cycle
 a. time your investments to only partial exit to fiat when the investment is at its prime/ath. dont do exit DCA'ing/monthly drawdowns
 b. take out what you need at the ATH season and invest again at the correction season
 c. same with any investment like stocks/shares.. buy low sell high, repeat

3. enjoy and use the time you have. make new experiences, have new choices.. dont trap yourself into schedules and duties, even if you start a business as a hobby/new income

4. most importantly, and for emphasis, get to the point where you say "i can" instead of "i wish" or "i hope to"
  a. EG i can buy the most expensive car, but i dont need to,
  b. i can go to X country, ok lets go

escape the rat-trap of getting an income and wasting it on other people not important to you. dont just buy an expensive car just to show off to neighbours.. buy what makes YOU happy not what makes you look at your best to others

many times people think if they show off a rich life they will be happy because their neighbours will know they are financially stable.. however the truth is after your acquaintances wave and smile and compliment you in your drive way, they go into their homes and gossip how you must have cheated your way to your lifestyle or are doing some debt based lease, or other jealous gossip.

so dont waste your money impressing people, as you will end up being financially unstable trying to pretend to display financial stability and in the end those you are trying to impress dont end up being impressed.. so just do things for you

i can buy the latest most expensive car on the planet. but instead i bought a classic and have the freedom to modernise it however i want. add body kits and new engines, etc. because i can...
my next project is to turn an old 1920's car into a electric car with neons, bodykit adaptions and whatever else i feel like.. because i can

if you want to impress someone.. find someone you have seen many times that are a genuine humble person but stuck in a rut. a person that doesnt blame the world, a person that doesnt think the world owes them. someone that genuinely deserves a uplift in their life but too afraid to ask.. and help them out because you can
avoid the people that you see begging for handouts but refuse to help themselves when a opportunity to help themselves comes about

finding that right person to uplift their life is a genuinely exhilarating experience, changing their life and making that money spent on them an investment in true happiness of others

Your opinion is just like with me because I'm want to double and triple my income by learning different skills and I became successful in my goal because my ambition was at the top . Every person should work for getting skills in life because these skills could give them independence in the future,so always try to learn from the persons who are skilled persons and they have knowledge which you are searching. Always Keep motivate yourself because you could lose the rope from your hand before reaching to your target. You can't be perfect in anything but you can improve and always try to improve your work then your pay will be more in your company in which you are working. If you will work hard then you could be retire early in life and you will enjoy the life without working.

Retiring early or not is a matter of personal choice and circumstance. Some people are stuck in the rat race and must work until retirement age, around 60. Others are fortunate enough to have a sufficient income, allowing them to choose their retirement age, whether in their 40s or 50s.

After retirement, whether by choice or necessity, people generally fall into two categories. There are those who keep themselves busy, starting new ventures, volunteering, or engaging in other activities. Then, there are those who sit back and enjoy their retirement. You're either team A or team B.

However, what financial independence means to you depends on your work, investments, and personal values. For some, financial independence isn't about retiring early and enjoying their pension. Instead, it's about having the freedom to pursue their passions without financial constraints, regardless of age or retirement status. And that is where I fall in, doing what I like whenever with no financial restraint

I completely agree with you we must live our life, fulfill our desires like on food, things etc. Eating rice, bread or similar items are still food, but eating more good food should be preferred if have money but not spending money on that because money at the end will be left behind if someone has accumulated a lot.

And yeah, it's quite difficult for anyone to invest all of their savings in something like this and in the second place, I don't think we should invest our life savings in a single initiative like this it can be risky as well. Investing and making passive income can make a person live a life because even doing two jobs nowadays is not enough.

You could keep working, but if you do not like your current occupation and you are in it just for the money, as it is the case for the majority of the people, then you can pick a new job or start your own business knowing that even if you were to fail, you will still have all your investment money, creating a money stream that can sustain you until you find a new occupation that you like, the real problem like you have stated is the dedication to such principle, since it will require at least a decade to produce those results and most people have problems planning what they will do next week.

Investing regularly is the most proven early retirement plan option that holds great rewards even when the investor is no more.
Savings work but not as effective as investing. A low salary earner might end up saving little or nothing and even after retirement the difference between his days as an employee and what ever investment that comes afterward might be very slim.
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I keep wondering how people will quit their job to start a business the haven't done a survey for experimenter before hand. Been self employed is good but I won't advise people jump into it without a solid backup plan. When starting any form of investment two things should be at the back of the mind. It could either succeed or fail and this should be the reason for a second plan incase things goes the opposite direction.

If I am still productive, I prefer to work because that way we can generate a stable income and maybe to meet the needs of life will be much better. Early retirement is indeed something that most people hope for but it is much better when we can still work. For me, more sources of income from several places will be much better than just focusing on investment goals because it opens the way to achieve a much better standard of living and we also have the opportunity to get the wealth we want.

This also what I am thinking so far because when we are still productive, we can search for more opportunities to give us more income. That will be better if we can create a passive income source that will give us that chance so when we are not productive, up to 65 years old, we can enjoy our life without thinks about the income.

Early retirement is a good idea but we must prepare everything from now on so when the time come, we will not feel difficult to pass on our lives. The more source of income that we can have, the more better our live so we don't have to bother with how to fills our daily needs plus other expenses when we are old.

We have our option how we want to do so it is better if we thinks what we can do when we are still young. So when the old time comes, we will not regret it.

"Retire early" has a bad connotation to it, if you ask me there should be something else instead of retire early. I understand the acronym of "fire" works great, so maybe try to use something that would be a bit more like still starts with R and E, but find something else. Because retiring isn't for everyone, I know people who have money and still work at 70+ years old because they love what they are doing and that is the most important part, there isn't really anything wrong with wanting to keep doing what you love.

This should be the most important part and I can definitely consider this very important aspect of investing as well. Because if you can earn something decent, like have enough money, then we could consider maybe there is a potential that you could make a lot more money and that would allow you to keep doing what you love doing without needing to have anything worse, which should be the most important thing in the future as well.

Financial maturity is what triggers and encourages early retirement.After so many years of hard work and consistent, people still get confused to retire or not.Retiring is only easy when you're financially stable with passive income and opportunities that wouldn't require much stress.Early retirement is a personal choice but it's most times not considered appropriately.

The idea may be good but it will be a little difficult in the implementation process because when deciding to take early retirement, we should have prepared a much better life than before so that this step will not make things worse. If you start to stop working and how to make money at a time like that, this is a step that may need to be prepared carefully and I personally prefer to decide to work while I am still productive enough to make money at work.

No one can predict life in the future so having a job can provide a little certainty to fulfill a much better life. Early retirement is much harder when someone faces financial problems later in life and the effects may extend further to more crucial matters.

I believe flexibility is the main achievement they are hoping for.    So yes quit and 'retire'  for 3 years, maybe to have children or travel the world or both.  The main objective seems to be to work hard save harder then actually live a proper life outside of the big city smoke and be a normal family of some kind not caught in the rat trap that is often modern working for many.

Its one of the most sensible ideas modern generations have come up with.  The rejection of conspicuous consumption is something to be lauded as we waste so much and value little in modern economies.  Its great to see people finding ways to learn skills to avoid waste and paying others for this saving drive etc.
    Commuting in both time and money to me is such a waste of humanity, every step away from that traffic jam pollution failure of a business model is an advance for all of humanity imo.   It is questionable if people of plain working class skill set can thrive as easily as the more elevated professions both in money and demand they can command but imo if people can learn trades like carpentry its possible (there is always demand for honest work and so leverage to achieve this fire concept).

It seems a bit strange that I read through this whole thread, and there were not too many responding members who were really attempting to grapple how bitcoin fits into this FIRE concept, except perhaps Franky1 had the post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5522931.msg64873936#msg64873936) that discussed the FIRE idea in light of his bitcoin holdings.

Surely, the main underlying ideas of how FIRE plays out within traditional assets are sufficiently outlined in OP, which largely is that when any of us might decide upon living off of our investments in a passive income kind of a way, our annual withdrawal rate should on average be less than the amount that the various investments are earning, so in that sense on average the investment portfolio is not getting smaller in terms of its dollar value, and if we have 25x our annual income/expenses, then withdrawing 4% per year remains enough to sustain ourselves at that same rate for an indefinite period of time, and presumptively in a perpetual basis.

We still potentially have the problem of calculating real rates versus nominal rates, and surely with ongoing debasement of the dollar we may well find that such a fixed income may well not keep up with how the costs of goods and services continue to rise in prices at a rate that is much greater so that we may well have to suffer from ongoing decreases in our standard of living and/or spending less each year in real terms if we maintain the same flat rate of withdrawal at 4%.  Surely, if we are able to invest in assets that generally appreciate more than 4% per year, then we may well be able to account for the debasement of the dollar by increasing our withdrawal rate in order to account for such ongoing increases in our cost of living.

I personally believe that bitcoin resolves a lot of the issues, yet surely there could be questions and concerns that the FIRE persons might have in regards to how much of their investment portfolio that they might keep in bitcoin as compared with other places that they might hold their assets.  Personally, I don't have any problem with the idea of treating the bitcoin investment differently from any traditional assets that are in place, and so perhaps just continue to withdraw  from traditional assets using the 4 % formula and then withdrawing from bitcoin to supplement such withdrawal and to withdraw from bitcoin last, since bitcoin remains amongst the best, if not the best investment that any of us could have.

There are also possibilities that guys choose to ONLY have bitcoin as their investment and NOT to have other traditional categories of investment, so in that case, the bitcoin holdings would serve as the FIRE asset, and I personally believe that if a guy valuates his BTC properly, by measuring the value of his bitcoin in accordance with the 200-WMA (bottom prices) rather than spot prices (which tend to be all over the place), I personally speculate that retaining investments in bitcoin a person could withdraw up to 10% per year based on the dollar value of the 200-WMA, which largely means that a guy would ONLY have to have 10 years of his expenses/expected annual income in bitcoin so long as he is valuating his BTC holdings at the 200-WMA, and perhaps in engaging in other protective measures, as I describe in my sustainable withdrawal thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475347.msg63213914#msg63213914), which means engaging in reductions of his withdrawal rate if the BTC spot price goes below 25% above the 200-WMA and other kinds of withdrawal reductions as I describe within the sustainable withdrawal tool guidelines (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX1+eEjG0bCWRHXo+J6oz77twVVt/SEgxNyjRA019SnYJxE0s05wZudZ4Od4RR1eYXVJz/uXftUYAdg==).

For example, look at this:
>>>>>"When the BTC spot price is at least 25% above the 200-week moving average, then at least 1 month's withdrawal will be authorized; however,

A) if the BTC spot price is between 10% and 25% above the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 90% of the current month's limit.
B. if the BTC spot price is between 0% and 10% above the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 85% of the current month's limit.
C. if the BTC spot price is between 0% and 20% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 70% of the current month's limit.
D. if the BTC spot price is between 20% and 30% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 50% of the current month's limit.
E. if the BTC spot price is greater than 30% and 35% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be authorized to withdraw for only 40% of the current month's limit.
F. if the BTC spot price is greater than 35% below the 200-week moving average, then you will be not be authorized to withdraw any BTC from the budget."<<<<<<

Surely guys can also stick with lower levels of withdrawal of their BTC such as some where between 4-10% (perhaps even at the lower ends of such range), which from my thinking would allow their BTC holdings to continue to grow while they may perhaps decide to defer their actions of withdrawing at something like a 10% annual rate... and yeah, of course, anyone who overly depletes their BTC too soon, ONLY have themselves to blame for failing to figure out a withdrawal system that would end up playing out in sufficiently sustainable ways.

By the way, another foundational idea underlying FIRE is that any person in such a position has the option to work or not to work, and so his various investments are able to sustain him, and likely the ONLY mandatory work that he would have to do would just be in line with managing whatever accounts that he has, which hopefully would not be such a complicated matter that would take more than a few hours a week, at most.  So, being in a position of FIRE would not require the guy do any kind of work in order to sustain his standard of living and perhaps even to increase his standard of living within reasonable bounds.  Surely if a guy is not yet at a place to be able to sustain himself (or perhaps increase his standard of living within his desired parameters) upon his assessment that he has reached FIRE status, then it could be possible that he has miscalculated in term of his having had reached such FIRE status.

Another thing is that there are guys who claim to have reached FIRE status and they continue to work, and if it is true that they don't need such work in order to remain comfortable financially, then surely it may well be the case that their choice of continuing to work is optional, and surely there could be some guys who are lying to themselves, and they really may well need to supplement their finances through ongoing work because their FIRE investments are not enough to sustain their chosen standard of living.

Many times none of us would really know individual motivations and/or whether guys are merely lying to themselves if they are putting themselves into a status they have not reached, and sure there is nothing wrong with living a life with some internal contradictions, as long as we know that we are doing it and we are hopefully not living too much of a fantasy in such a way that we are not being honest with ourselves... but yeah, some guys still might get into a position that they don't really have much choice except to lie to themselves to make themselves feel better about their actual situation.

Well, with this, I can now understand perfectly well how BTC can enable an individual achieve FIRE, from the OP's post here


If proper investment is made and your BTC portfolio has grown to a point where you can sustain a particular lifestyle, using the method you explained on withdrawing using the 200-wma will really be a good idea, but at the same time, diversifying your investment alongside BTC will be most ideal if this method should be implemented. Cause certainly, there would be a time in which the price will be even lower than 35% of the 200-wma as you stated earlier, at that point, you won't be able to make any withdrawals (strictly following the strategy you provided), then for that month, no bills will be paid, it can sometimes remain below 30% of the 200-wma for months, then living a sustainable lifestyle might be difficult.

With this, I suggest that, having BTC as a means of achieving FIRE (which is the best) it should be complimented with gold investment or any other sustainable investment so as to offset the setbacks of BTC, seeing that having all your eggs in one basket is a dangerous feat. You also provided the option of working and that is a really solid idea too or you can start up a business that you have always wanted to although, not everyone have the ability to do so. The option of investing in real estate is also there, maybe good stocks too but along side BTC so as to have a more realistic FIRE when the time comes.

But what if we have a scenario where you are a long time investor in BTC and your portfolio have grown to the extent it has beat so many ATH's of BTC, at that point, will withdrawing despite having your price go lower than 30% of the 200-wma be sustainable, I know it's important to have a strategy so as not to deplete your portfolio, but is there a situation where the less than 30% condition can be overlooked, maybe taking 1-2% profit during those period, cause at the end of the day, BTC price will see another ATH bringing your investment high again dollar-wise.

So, in your opinion, skills are better than having a business for retirement plan or 'FIRE' plans, well that could be true cause if you have an on demand skill and it's something you love doing, that certainly could be the best retirement plant ever, but what about investing in your talent too, like let's say football or music, are painting, e.t.c, or maybe you have a talent in business too who knows, IMO, I think FIRE plan should be something you love doing and that brings income so as to compliment your retirement

Fair enough that some form of diversification may well be justified to prepare for possible time periods in which BTC spot prices start to go below 25% above the 200-WMA, and it may well end up in periods of going as far as 35% below the 200-WMA, and so sure, none of us  should want to be selling BTC at a time that is not of our complete choosing and we may well choose to either sell from other assets first or perhaps have emergency funds (in cash, or something  more similar to cash) for those kinds of periods that we might not be wanting to use much if any of our BTC.

Diversification can be a confusing term in the bitcoin and/or crypto space because some folks may well consider that they might need to be diversified into shitcoins, which could even make matters worse for anyone to be exposing themselves to shitcoins and considering that they are diversifying outside of bitcoin.. even though surely there could be various kinds of funds that could be available for use in emergencies that could be considered diversification beyond bitcoin.. so perhaps if a person may have 10 years or more of his expenses/income in bitcoin at a 200-WMA valuation, then during the periods that bitcoin had been appreciating in value there could have had been some motivations to sell some of those BTC to keep in cash  (whether it might be 10% or more) or perhaps to put that value into other kinds of somewhat liquid locations that are similar to cash.   

Many of us may well recall that from June 2022 until about October 2023, BTC prices spent a lot of time at or below the 200-WMA, and we did reach peak lows of BTC prices 35% below the 200-WMA, and even though that period of 35% below the 200-WMA did not last for very long, there still could have been concerns of BTC holders about cashing out any of their BTC during periods of those kinds of BTC price levels.


I am not personally too excited about gold or the need for gold,


You can keep cash, equities, properties, and other forms of protecting yourself besides gold, yet sure, I am not 100% against gold, but there could be issues of getting out of gold, and if you have systems in place for getting in and out of gold, then sure, it could serve some balancing kind of purpose to help a guy from not having to cash out very much of his BTC at a time that is not of his choosing.


Sure.. there could be side sources of income, especially that might involve kinds of work that a guy is choosing to perform, yet surely if there is reliance on the work because BTC prices are crashing, that could also mean that a person had entered into a FIRE status at a time in which he was not prepared...

And yeah, surely property can be a way in which someone is diversified in his investments and he could get income from properties too.. and hopefully not forced to work to manage the properties, even though some level of work may be part of a lot of various kinds of obligations that guys might realize that they have in regards to the kinds of investments that they choose, and so yeah in the context of owning a business and being a behind the scenes player in the business, sometimes a person with those kinds of businesses might end up being forced to work in circumstances in which the business ends up blowing up in ways that had not been anticipated..

In 2015, I had a business partner who was supposed to be doing a lot of work for "our business" and so I ended up having to spend quite a bit of time picking up pieces between 2015 and 2019.. and sure it was not a full-time job, but it ended up being more work than I had wanted to do. ..



A person can have cushions in his BTC holdings, and perhaps the point that a person first gets into FIRE status, there may be more uncertainties, and so if he is conservatively withdrawing from his BTC, then his BTC is still growing, and so if he goes through another BTC cycle, he may even be in a better place.

So the guy with 100 BTC in the beginning of 2021, might have felt that he was struggling to be careful during the 2022 and 2023 periods of BTC price difficulties, so maybe between early 2021 and now, he ended up spending 33% of his BTC stash, so he currently ONLY has 67 BTC (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX1/4KhBwSPBh+R1RTI1VIDKFmbXUwahM8b5HiY5SGq07Mdbo6nv4w7Uq3tyIhkvM0rWNOpd/tHKECQ==), yet he still is doing much better now with 67 BTC as compared to how he was doing during the 2022 difficulty period, so part of his concern would be to make sure that he has enough and more than enough BTC when he enters into a FIRE status/practice.

In some other threads, I had mentioned that the guy who is currently aiming at 21 BTC is going to feel in a much better position if he happens to have 35 BTC right now and with a lot of options, as compared with the guy who has 7 BTC and is still working towards getting to a status of having enough or more than enough BTC... so sure, anywhere between 21 BTC to 35BTC may well feel fine, yet the guy might not feel good about going into FIRE status until he is 60% above the goal, and it surely would be premature for him to be going into such FIRE status/practices if he was still 60% below the goal, yet in 4-6 years that guy with 7 BTC might either be at or near the goal, he might even choose to wait a few more years to make sure that the 7 BTC that he has is more than enough for him to feel comfortable that he is 30% to 60% higher than what he considers his goal, which also it seems to me that bitcoin allows for those kinds of expectations and preparations - even if the matter of getting there is not guaranteed to happen exactly within any kind of a specific timeline, but the guy can still have good ideas how to deal with his situation once he has already spent a few cycles building up his BTC stack size.

I never thought and also won't to retire early, because working is part of human life, by continuing to work your body will continue to move because rarely moving will actually make your body experience a decline in function and disease will start to approach you.
For me early retirement is nonsense, humans should continue to work, maybe the intensity of work decreases with age and busyness in work will keep your brain working.

retirement should not be thought of as the traditional retirement of sitting at home watching tv all day due to reaching old age of not being able to functionally work anymore..
FIRE is not about declining health and need to stop operating in work(traditional retirement)

FIRE is about being financially independent to not need to work yourself to death, but instead giving you more freedom and time to enjoy life and explore and experience new things

dont waste opportunity to retire early just to become a sofa cushion.. enjoy the freedom of time and income independence BEFORE you reach the health decline stage that stops you from enjoying the time off

I don't think this strategy makes sense. It is too conservative. And will force you to work more

We don't need to sustain ourselves in perpetual basis, because our life isn't perpetual.

You just need money to live at most 110 years.

Making correct assumptions about your long you will live will allow you to make higher withdrawals, allowing you to withdrawal more than your investment earnings annually.  Because you don't need to die with your portfolio intact.

I don't like the particular execution of this idea because a goal of 25x your living expenses will only last you for 25 years and then after that you'd have to go to work again.  ;D

But more importantly many people thing that the way to become rich enough to retire early is to penny-pinch as much as possible, but that makes you quite miserly and you won't be able to enjoy anything.

you have a good sentence here, many people misunderstand that early retirement is those who relax at home and burden their lives by sitting on the couch all day eating unhealthy food all day, this is a wrong perception, the purpose of FIRE is to make us as humans become completely free humans who are not chased by work deadlines and also insecure with termination of employment that can be experienced at any time.

although I am still far from being able to do this FIRE, but I personally really dream of being one of the FIRE activists, because the life they live is very perfect and free.

Why not for both?

First off, your quoting sucks, OsaiEmma. I think that I fixed this one, but you need to figure out how to more correctly quote posts.

Back to the topic.  

I am reluctant to suggest what guys should do exactly, even though there are likely needs to create some kinds of financial cushions in order to stay in a kind of sustainable withdrawal status rather than devolving into too much risk taking that would end up playing out like gambling, which no one should be wanting to be putting their personal finance management into a gambling kind of status, even if such status might be temporary.  

General practices would be that guys want to hold 3-6 months of emergency funds in a form of cash, when there could be an emergency, yet if in advance, we already know that BTC prices have tendencies to be quite volatile, yet we still don't know if the BTC spot price is going to go below the 200-WMA... yet we could anticipate that there could be some periods in which BTC prices do end up going below the 200-WMA.. Our withdrawal tool that I had previously cited does have some suggested advance month cashing out periods that are based on BTC price moves higher than the 200-WMA, and surely those kinds of advance month cashing out recommendations could be used to set aside some extra cash that could be used in periods that the BTC spot price gets close to the 25% above the 200-WMA or if the BTC price falls below the 200WMA.. and surely any of these kinds of preemptive strategies could end up running their own risks, so it is difficult to prescribe individually specific kinds of plays - even though surely the tool does attempt to give some guidelines for some of those kinds of extra month cash outs that could serve as insurance if the were timely employed.

Another thing is that the more extra BTC that a person has at the time of going into FIRE status, then the easier it should be to depart with some of the extra BTC during UPpity BTC price periods in order to attempt to make sure that there is some preparations and insurance in place in case the future brings forth extended periods in which the BTC price is close to or below the 200-WMA.


Another problem with shitcoins is that they don't really seem to be real/meaningful diversification, since historically they have largely remained correlated with BTC price performance, and so historically,  investing in shitcoins would not have had brought very much diversification, and there is no real evidence that any shitcoins will break their correlation in bitcoin in any kind of meaningful and/or reliable way... so even though breaking correlation is a possibility, it seems risky to bet on any kind of break of correlation, absent a guy having some specific and reliable knowledge about some specific shitcoin that might have success in the breaking of such correlation to bitcoin.  I have no clue of the existence of any such shitcoin, even though many of them market themselves as if they were capable of breaking such correlation with bitcoin..and/or that such break in correlation might go beyond short-term blips.


If you are not dealing with physical gold, then you seem to be running risk in terms of your brokers being able to get in and out of gold at times that you might need such liquidity, and sure it might work for portions of some liquidity that you might need.  I am not in such practice, even though I frequently argue against gold based on ideas of bitcoin being better rather than short term liquidity ideas that might be valid for some people and in some circumstances.. and sometimes we might ONLY want to keep a few months of our emergency funds in cash or cash equivalent products, so surely something that takes a bit longer to get in and out of might not be a problem so long as we also have the cash that might be used in the short term.

I personally start to get nervous if I start to see shortages in my cashflow 2 or 3 months in advance, and I would think that most folks with solid cashflow management will pretty much have money in the bank that is going to cover anything for the upcoming month, yet as soon as some kind of payment does not come in that is supposed to come in, then there surely might be some short term scrambling to make sure that enough funds are present for the current month and then there can become some cascading events on subsequent months if there might not be enough liquidity that can come available to cover those upcoming months.. which surely could be a bit of rolling needs for liquidity.

but then surely some uncertainties if certain lines of cashflow are suddenly either drying up or becoming less valuable.. so for example if a person is cashing out $6,666 every month from his bitcoin, so long as the BTC price stays 25% above the 200-WMA, yet if the BTC price is running close to that line, then he may well know that his authorized withdrawal amounts will be going lower with increment that the BTC price drops, which surely if he actually needs $6,666 per month, then he should be able to draw the difference from somewhere else during the time that the BTC price might be low.. and surely some guys might have already drawn several months in advance, so that if the amount goes low, they already have drawn several months in advance so they may well not need to panic, even if their current withdrawal amount has gone below their anticipated budget amount... .

Guys also might already be accustomed of living 25% or more above their needs, so they may well be able to cut back on their expenses something like 25% per month without suffering in any kind of a meaningful and/or painful way that goes beyond just the inconveniences of having a wee bit less luxury during those cutting back periods (presuming that they might be temporary periods).


Surely there are guys who get overly anxious in terms of wanting to get out of work or perhaps even claiming that they had retired early, and I would imagine that it is quite painful if  these guys have to go back to work because they miscalculated... So, surely there should be some desires that we are going to want to calculate in terms of making sure that we have more than enough rather than less than enough.  A difficulty continues to be figuring out that line, since surely none of us should want to continue to keep working, perhaps even several years when we might have already reached a status of enough and/or more than enough.. yet how much of a cushion we need may well be the $million question that we truly have to answer for ourselves, and if we answer wrong, then no one is going to come and save us or feel sorry for us.  We have to live with the ramifications, and sometimes if we quit our job, we might not be able to get back a similar one, so we might want to make sure that we don't quit prior to making sure that we have calculated sufficiently correctly in regards to both enough and more than enough... perhaps easier said than done?


For me, it makes sense, since not only does it seem to be able to sustain yourself on a perpetual basis without depleting your capital, you also likely need to account for the ongoing debasement of fiat, so that if you want to sustain your standard of living, then your income likely needs to increase with the debasement of fiat... Surely there are several ways to calculate, yet it seems to me to be a good foundation to presume perpetual sustainability rather than depletion of the capital, and sure of course, if we choose to purposefully deplete our principle faster than the sustainable rate, then that is a choice that we can make, yet I personally would prefer to start with the presumption of perpetual rather than a fixed number of years that it would last.

Surely, as you suggest, we could go into our FIRE status with a set number of years that we expect our funds to last, and that sounds like a personal choice rather than proclaiming that the one that is presumptively perpetual system does not make sense and asserting that the depleting (presumed number of years) system makes more sense.


Sure.. fair enough.  Let's say that we are 50 years old at the time that we go into FIRE status, then what is the material difference between having a system that is known to be 60 years versus one that is perpetual?  I would think that for all intents and purposes, even the one that is set up for 60 years is going to be set up as mostly the same as a perpetual one, except it will allow depleting in the final 10-20 years.

Are you want to to presume an older or a younger age in which a person is going into FIRE status?

I think in traditional systems, frequently there is a presumption of something around 30 years rather than 60 years, so we aren't going to be working until 80 and then labelling that FIRE?

I would imagine that many who are aiming towards some kind of FIRE implementation are wanting to enter into such status somewhere prior to turning 60 years if possible, and surely some are going to want to enter in their early 40s if they were able to do so... I personally think that the earlier we enter, the more likely that we are going to want to set up a system that is at least on the surface seeming to be perpetually sustainable, even though there may be some end period in which we purposefully might start to choose to deplete it at a faster rate than we had done in earlier years.

I tend to gather from your earlier posts that you are wanting to spend money sooner rather than later, and personally, I have difficulties understanding how that would be working in any kind of meaningful way that does not end up resulting in too much depletion of the capital (principle) too early.. but hey, maybe you have some system that you believe is going to work and hopefully you don't end up spending it all too soon merely because you think that it is possible to spend more on the front end, and I have my doubts about designing any system in that kind of way, especially if you are planning to live to 110.. which also seems a bit on the unrealistic side...even though it may not hurt to have a system in place, just in case, which seems to be arguing more the maintenance of a perpetual sustainable system rather than a front-depleting system.


I have my doubts about front-depleting working, but sure you can try it and find out whether it was a great idea or not.. .and yeah of course, we cannot really know in advance how long that we are going to live, which seems to be part of the justification to make sure we don't run out of capital too early.


For sure, you don't understand the basic concept, which is that the reason that you build up your investment portfolio to 25 years is because it allows you to withdraw 4% per year and to sustain your current standard of living, and if your money is earning on average of 4% per year, then your 25% investment (savings) is going to support you at that current withdrawal rate on a perpetual basis.  You ar not depleting the principle, so long as the money earns at least 4%..

Sure another problem is that you may well need to increase your  withdrawal rate each year based on the debasement of fiat... so that may well mean either needing to save more than 25 years or depleting your principle, and then such investment amount is no longer perpetually sustainable unless you are on average earning more than 4% on it (which of course is reasonably plausible with bitcoin but may well not be with other ways of investing your capital).


You don't have to penny pinch, but you do have to spend less than you earn so that any excess income would go into savings, and sure one of the ways to get there faster is to put more money into your investment/savings/retirement plan faster, so you can accomplish by spending less and/or earning more. It does not mean that you have to suffer, but sure, suffering could be a way to reach that FIRE status earlier.

From my point of view, it seems a bit presumptive to imagine that suffering has to happen in order to reach FIRE status early, even if suffering would likely expedite such process of getting to FIRE faster.   :P


Of course, investing and saving are similar concepts, and many of us surely would prefer that any money we set aside is holding or appreciating in value, so part of the problem of holding value in cash is that it tends to depreciate and many times banks are not giving an interest rate that keeps up with the speed that the cash is depreciating.  Accordingly, many of us will try to put our money into places that we consider will both appreciate in value, but hopefully appreciate in value faster than the depletion of the value of cash.  Different places to put money have differing levels of volatility or even certainty in terms of the return and also sometimes risk of losing in value rather than gaining in value, relative to cash (or even relative to one another).  

Personally, I doubt that it is very good to be classifying crypto (or shitcoins) stocks and/or even bitcoin as if they were all similar kinds of things.. surely some places to put your money are better than others, and likely since we are on a bitcoin forum, it is probably better to be focusing on learning bitcoin first and to create an investment strategy related to bitcoin rather than fucking around with shitcoins or even stocks.. so perhaps if we develop some bitcoin building strategies, then we might want to diversify beyond bitcoin after learning and building bitcoin first.  It seems to me that if if you don't first figure out how to manage bitcoin and cash first, then you are likely just shooting in the dark when it comes to other investments, whether stocks or shitcoins.  Surely if you come to bitcoin and you already have other investments, perhaps even including a 401k or even owning a personal residence or even a business, then you would be starting your investment into bitcoin with that kind of a background framework in regards to how you would consider allocating (or including) bitcoin within your investment plans and/or strategies.

As much as I want to achieve this goal but I think I understand more people living with their careers until they can no longer go to work. It has become part of their routines to still keep on working but with minimal efforts and have a continuous cash flow. If I get into that point, I'd say that I am retired but will do some minimal task or efforts that will still generate me cash flow. But as with what people see that, it's not complete retirement but at least, that's stress free whether I work or not, I have some savings with my retirement fund.

nope.. having 25x of lifestyle capital does not mean only 25 years of expenditure
if you are only removing 4% of the lump, but the lump grows by 8%-200% per year then the lump gets bigger not smaller(thus unlimited years)


to be rich is to foolishly spend on lambos and glamorous stuff to show off..
to build wealth is to initially live frugally to start the investment if your income is low.. and then live lavishly once your 4% outgoings from wealth is less than growth, but where the 4% allows you to live a good lavish life of exploration and experiences

the difference between being wealthy vs rich is that:
being rich means you spend your capital on show-off stuff, such as owning 7 lambo's even though you are just one person (one person cant drive 7 cars at same time so unneeded spend)

being wealthy is where your capital increases even when you are lavishly spending on wise purchases that you do need and want. emphasis on the wise
such as one good performance car that does what its suppose to and is reliable

Of course, you don't necessarily need to reach full FIRE status in order to enjoy the benefits of having had built up enough of a nest egg so that you have some options and yeah, you might be able to reduce the quantity of your hours, or you might be able to reduce the kinds of physically demanding kinds of jobs that you do, since your body might  not be as capable of doing such physically taxing jobs including also being able to adequately recover from physically taxing kinds of work.  Some people are able to continue doing physically taxing work, yet most people suffer decline in strength, stamina and even their recovery times or their proneness to injury or getting sick or not recovering from their ailments as quickly and easily.

Having options continues to be a plus, even if you are not quite able to go into full FIRE status at the age that you would like to do so.

My standard of living has been pretty good in the past 7 years or so, and it seems to me that I was hunkering down investing into bitcoin for my first 4-ish years between late 2013 and late/2016 to early 2017, but then even though I was not really cashing out of my BTC, I was still able to improve my standard of living in 2017 and thereafter based on anticipations of what I had already established. .and surely gaining confidence that what I had done was enough.. even though I even started to have such confidences in early 2016.. when BTC started its recovery after spending so much time in decline in 2014 and time being stagnant in its price in 2015..

so if any of us stack bitcoin early, we might start to gain a lot of confidence in how our BTC is helping us to live better even if we still might not be completely living off of it, but perhaps merely allowing the bitcoin to ride or perhaps just allowing the bitcoin to supplement our income in minor ways as it continues to grow to a place in which it might be able to do more of the heavy lifting in regards to providing income to us... Perhaps? perhaps?  Each of us handle our bitcoin investment and allow for its growth in differing ways that hopefully does not contribute towards our cashing out too much of it too soon.


I personally believe that we can live quite improved lives with BTC as our wealth, and it may well be quite likely that the BTC value will grow way beyond our spending pace, so if the BTC is allowed to compound in value a few more times, we may well end up with way more wealth than we expected, which may well allow us to go from spending wealthy and wise and into higher levels of extravagance.

It is like going from entry-level fuck you status (FIRE status), end then getting to a point that is multiples higher than the entry-level status, and then perhaps being 10s or even 100x higher than the entry-level fuck you status at a kind of filthy rich status, which some of those higher levels  can come without necessarily having to work hard at it, but just living within one's means and allowing the value to continue to compound, which so far in bitcoin's history, it has compounded many, many times...

I've realized that we're all going to that point that our body will tax us with the too work that we've got during our younger days and that's why we also have to plan whether full FIRE or semi, as long as we live comfortably and able to sustain our lifestyle and frugal living. That is impressive. You have not cashing a lot of your BTC and you're able to live comfortably and confidently. I bet that you have some other sources aside from your paper profits in Bitcoin investing and the big thing here is you're living within or even below your means and means comfort to you. I wish that more people are going to do the same as you, despite that have probable huge holdings and seeing $$$ from time to time, not too hungry in taking them all and have a longer game plan.

I am a testament to this and will continue to do so in keeping a stack of Bitcoin. I've proved it to myself that there's the biggest part in my life that BTC did it all and I reckon this advise and hopefully others will be wise on doing their investments, I'm not saying that I am wise but sure JJG is.  ;)

Definitely i do see up those kind of people on which even if they do have that other income sources or simply you can really be able to tell that they can survive without having their day job but still they have decided to have some work and never make out that retirement on which we can be able to say that this is indeed someones personal choice whether they will really be that pursuing out their careers for some personal reason on which there's nothing we can do about it since we dont really know their condition or situation behind those actions. The only thing that makes you find out that dayjob sucks is that because of that work stress and other correlated aspect on which this is where you dont really like up to experience.

On the moment or time that you are already on a job position on which you are already that having no stress at all or the workload and responsibility isnt that much then you wont really be trying out to get rid and retire with that job too early but rather you will be considering on having the action on doing it until your body will really be not able to to do or simply on the moment that you do get old and thats someones on basing into such decision on which its not bad either. We are all free on what are the things that we do really wanted to do and it is really that up to ours in accordance into our choices and preferences.

bitcoin will compound at far better rate than any bank account interest rate or portfolio manage stock options.. its just picking the target amount where the compounding is growing more then the withdrawal, to decide whats the best number to find sustainable living amount to then retire and enjoy it

can i just offer some advice.. the whole 'fuck you status' of just extravagance/burning money 'cos i can' gets boring quick.. dont plan on a wasteful spending as it wont make you happy long term
it only lasts as long as driving a car out the showroom and on the way home seeing someone with a car thats better than yours (less than a couple hours)
where your then already thinking 'maybe i should have bought that one instead'
dont get into that consumerism cycle or you'll just ends up spending it all just to act like the top man

i actually enjoy knowing i can buy any car, any house.. but just not needing to.
the peace of mind of not having to worry about money is the essence of F.I.R.E, its not about buying crazy things 'because i can'
its not about forced frugality either

people think they can only retire in 2 extreme circumstances:
a. super bill gate/musk rich with the need to buy 10 mansions and 7 lambo's
b. enough to live on bread&beans, to stay home watching tv repeats

but f.ir.e is about enjoying financial freedom of not worried about money

 in short, once you reach F.I.R.E status. your mindset will change about whats important to you. rich/extravagance gets boring.. you start to want to have and explore experiences, not shiny objects. you live comfortably worry free

I like this part of your statement, because some people who have extra funds to save for their future by investing it, don't do that but rather they spend the extra cash on their wants believing that tomorrow will be better than today without them having to invest for a better tomorrow. How is that possible. I have always told me friends that I will prefer to limit my flashy lifestyle and invest those extra cash on bitcoin to grow my portfolio for F.I.R.E.

Since I am in my youthful age and still have the strength and very agile, I will keeping on working to generate more funds and cut down my expenses so that I can invest more in bitcoin for my old age, because I am able to work and earn good income, why will I be spending without planning for the future when I wouldn't have this strength and flexibility to work the way I am working now. If I don't save and invest for F.I.R.E, I will might end up in a poor state by that time.

If only a lot of people can look at it this way, when we were teens, we went to school to graduate in other to get a better life, or we learn a skill so that it can take care of us when we are on our own. If you don't take your studies serious or your skill, you wouldn't be a professional in it and wouldn't be able to earn good pay to take of your and family because the kind of job you will be doing will be a low paid job. Same applies when you have started working and earning. Since you have discretionary income, if you did not plan for it and invest...at old age, you will have nothing on you and living poor will only be your option.

I learned this from my Uncle, he had a good job in the sea port and was rich but he didn't invest a dime, because he didn't plan for F.I.R.E and was enjoying himself to the fullest, when he retired, he got broke within 5 years and now he is a poor man. It's what you have today that you will use to plan for tomorrow.

I believe that most people wants this F.I.R.E strategy so that they can retire early and enjoy the rest of their lives without working. If a person is working and can take care of their basic needs and have extras, that means that the above strategy will work for the person. Then he can apply all the rules to achieving the goals of early retirement and it all centers on living below your means, meaning that you should always budget your expenses below your income.

 The problem that many people that are hit by inflation in their countries is that their incomes can barely take care of their basic needs, this the reality of many people. Many people are struggling to survive, even with a second job which is adding a lot of stress to them so it's not very easy for everybody to retire early even if it's their wish.

Of course, each of us has to attempt to best prepare ourselves under our own circumstances, and it can take a long time to build up investments whether we are including bitcoin into our investment portfolio or otherwise, and surely, the less we prepare ourselves, then when we get into our 40s, 50s and 60s we might not have created options for ourselves as we might have had been able to do if we had started preparing somewhat in our youth.

Truly more well-off people will have more resources from which to draw, yet even well off people might not sufficiently and/or adequately prepare themselves, and they may also take their finances for granted, and find out that they have fewer options because they had not started preparing early.

It is likely that many of us will make various screw ups in our finances along the way, and surely some kinds of screw ups are less long term damaging and recoverable than others.. and it is not even always going to be clear until years and years had passed if we might have screwed up some of our decisions earlier on since even  in bitcoin, we might have had been able to invest into it somewhat aggressively in earlier years, and then we might find payouts in current times, yet even if we are a later entrant into bitcoin, we still ONLY have the ability to assess where we are at from the present and make our preparations for the future based on our current circumstances how they are rather than how we wished they would be based on some things that we might have done differently in earlier times.

There might be times in which we might need to keep more of our value in dollar based assets and using some of that for short term income and then maybe some of our bitcoin might be spread into longer term kind of storage and/or income kinds of resources that might not be regularly drawn, so we can try to keep more than one source, in place, but we also might want to make sure that we have enough or more than enough before we start drawing on some sources, rather than if we might still be in the stages of building some of it up.

Some folks might say that they want to continue to work, yet it may not be the case that they want to continue to work but instead that they have to continue to work, and surely it can be difficult to change your circumstances, especially if if you are already in your 60s, then maybe the best you can do is to try to preserve your situation so that you can stop working in your 70s, but you might still be able to slow down in your 60s if you believe that might be a workable kind of arrangement that you had already reached.

I think some of the problems that I had in this thread that I mentioned in my first post in this thread is that guys were talking about FIRE in terms of various traditional investments that they have, yet it seems to me that historically bitcoin has outperformed so many of the traditional investments in such ways that it could be possible that bitcoin is able to give options to guys that would not have had otherwise been possible with traditional investment categories, so bitcoin may well allow for various kinds of abilities for us to supercharge our retirements, yet we still likely need to both manage our getting to enough (or more than enough) bitcoin, and we likely also have to manage our bitcoin so that we are not spending too much of it too soon.

Surely we have seen how folks have gotten screwed in their traditional investments, especially based on dollar debasement happening at way higher levels than they had anticipated to be within the cards and even within the current somewhat hidden status in which so many folks nominaly valuate their abilities, yet find themselves ongoingly losing ground with the value of their income in real terms.


Of course, bitcoin is not guaranteed to continue to outperform traditional assets, so we have to figure how much of a balance we want to keep in each, even when we are spending from them, so perhaps if we start to get to the cashing out stage, we might end up drawing from each in some kind of proportioned level that helps us to feel comfortable in regards to how much value we are keeping in each or perhaps if we might choose to let the bitcoin portion grow more, even though the formula is not 100% true.

Recently I had been trying to talk a friend into delaying purchasing a house, since there was a trade off between putting the value into the house and keeping value in bitcoin, and such person did not listen to me, and surely it is not my choice to make. 

Many of us likely recall that a median house in 2015 may well have had cost us close to 1,000 bitcoin ($250k), and surely today, even if the median price of house might have more than doubled in the past 10 years, right now a median house of $500k to $1million, the contrast is strong, since such $500k to $1million house will cost us in the ballpark of 6 to 11 BTC, which truly is a big difference, and we don't even have to go that far back to make comparisons, since even in 2019, we might say that a $500k house may well have had cost us around 50 BTC, and so such trend is not necessarily guaranteed, yet we can figure out where we might want to put our value, and sure if we are intent on getting a house we can choose whether to get it now, or if we might want to wait a few years (if we might be able to, and at the same time, we are the one who has to live with the decision, whether we can reasonably recognize what might be for our own financial and/or psychological good or not).. We might not realize the ramifications of our choices until 3-5 years down the road when it may well no longer be an option for us to attempt to revisit our earlier decision..


From my perspective, there are varying levels of fuck you status, including the bare minimum of being able to choose not to work.  There is no need to read fuck you status beyond that, even though surely I would concede that even being able to refuse to work full time and only to work part time, could be considered a moderated fuck you status that might ONLY be possible if enough savings/investment is built up to allow for an ability to not be forced to work full time based on having to have enough income to support yourself and your chosen standard of living.


Wasteful is subjective.  Surely if you are still in early stages of fuck you status, you might not have as much room for extravagances, and I think that I already mentioned that if you happen to have multitudes or even magnitudes beyond your entry-level fuck you status then you are going to have more room for extravagances that may or may not make you happy long term and/or short term.  I doubt that you can proclaim what might make another person happy and what the limits might be for another person.


Yeah, maybe a guy might not like hookers, lambos and blow, but another guy might.  Whether he does it daily or just once in a while, he may or may not feel fulfilled.


You may well be correct that some kinds of consumer items might end up causing a lot of work... for example getting the yacht might have to involve a whole crew, and then supervising employees, which might not be as pleasurable as imagined.


That is true too.. especially there could be quite a bit of work in buying a new house or even a mansion and then getting management systems in place might be problematic too.. including that if you might get some managers who are not honest.. that would likely cause additional work, too.


You are devolving into strawman arguments now, even though surely some people do think without realistic expectations.. including that many of us can be rich and/or even have rich sensations by merely having options and making sure that we are living within our means... whether we have a $1 million per year income or merely a $40k per year income... if we our expenses are less than our income, then we likely are rich, especially if we have chosen to live that way and if we have the choice whether or not to work rather than having to work.

 

That may be true that the main point is having options and not having to work, yet people may want some shiny objects, too, even if some of the shiny objects might cause some work to get, to maintain and to enjoy... so for example, if I get a nice boat, then I have to figure out where I am going to store it, and whether I might need to transport it.  Can I drive it myself or do I need or want help, and various decisions that may well need to be made and perhaps even questions if there are other people who might help to arrange some of these matters or do I have to do them and arrange them myself.. including keeping track of the finances or the various people involved or even my own schedule in regards to when to do the  stuff and with whom.. and is that how I want to spend my time.


Many of us are into bitcoin because it can be quite difficult to get ahead through traditional investments, yet we still have to be able to earn more than we spend, as you mentioned in your first paragraph, and so ultimately it still can take a bit of time to build up a bitcoin nest egg and then to live off of bitcoin or to supplement our lifestyle from our bitcoin rather than merely ONLY relying on traditional investments that might never be able to outpace the rate of the debasement of fiat.

if you want to work so be it. boom you are no longer retired.. end of story. you are now employed and not part of f.i.r.e
debate ended(not sure why you are even debating going back to work in a f.i.r.e topic while still pretending you want to be in f.i.r.e)

can i just say, even bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet are at ultimate FU status, but because they choose to work they are not in f.i.r.e

if your mindset either worries about money or you choose to work as a hobby or to afford shiny things. you cant be in f.i.r.e.  
the acronym is pretty clear about what defines f.i.r.e..  and when you are finally ready for f.i.r.e, you'll know it

...
you really are scratching at debates which show that you are not understanding f.i.r.e
by you saying you want to enter f.i.r.e at some entry level FU status and then realise you want to buy many shiny things so need to go back to work means you are not ready for f.i.r.e

your mindset/financial status is not yet ready for f.i.r.e

to truly be in f.i.r.e you need to be at a financially independent status to retire early
so again if your not at a financially independent status and then not want to retire.. you are not in f.i.r.e... its that simple

my point is that i can easily afford to buy all the shiny things... but my mindset has changed where shiny things have become boring and non essential to my happiness. i prefer to use my funds to buy experiences and meaningful things
frugality in f.i.r.e is not about living like a homeless person to keep wealth.. frugality in fire is about the mindset of affording everything but not needing it all

my point was simple.. you get to a certain mindset where you no longer worry about money (fu status) where you no longer play the consumerist game of trying to impress the jones by stressing about what others think
its not about forcing yourself to live without things you want in some forced frugal living situation.. its about the mindset of being financially free to buy what ever your want but just not needing to spend money/burn money wastfully

if your still stuck in the worry and stress of money and impressing people.. your not ready for the f.i.r.e mindset/experience

years ago i never understood why warren buffet doesnt have hundreds of vacation homes and car collections.. but now im financially independent i now see why having the latest lambo is not that exciting anymore
...

heres a little lesson for you shiny thing lovers
when you want that $400k lambo to impress the women walking on the sidewalk as they go nightclubbing in mainstreet.. you soon realise when driving such a vehicle you are then stressed about scratching the base of the lowered suspensioned car. so you are now driving it slower than usual and your eyes are on the road watching for potholes and speedbumps.. so no longer enjoying the cruising down mainstreet during the nightscene of nightclubs and women. you no longer have the opportunity to just look out the side window to enjoy the view
you are instead watching the road and watching out for jealous men who want to scratch the side of your car or throwbottles at the car as they come out of nightclubs
you instead later learn to buy a $200k car which can afford you to pay a chauffeur at $50k a year, so you can sit back in the backseat and look out the side window looking at all the 'totty'

when you want to wear the most expensive suit and wear the most expensive rolex, driving the most expensive car. you begin to worry about getting robbed/kidnapped, so would then worry about security and hire a bodyguard. but then your body guard starts dictating your actions and guiding you, setting schedules and routes to travel.. controlling your life and you become dependant on them to decide where you go..
 
you instead later learn to just wear whats comfortable. so you dress casually to just go about your day without drawing attention to yourself, giving you back your freedom to just do what you want. it also silences the other people who approach you just for handouts(gold digger hoes)

all im saying is when you truly reach that FU status and want to enter f.i.r.e status and experience it. you will learn lessons, and your mindset will change.. i was simply trying to give you a heads up that things will be different to your current plans

..
if your still in the wanting to waste money impressing people.. you would be in "rich" category..
where as wealthy people have the money to buy anything but find all the impressing others BS, boring and not needed in their life

i do truly hope you go through the FU status, rich status and finally land in the wealth status of f.i.r.e... as its a truly freeing feeling.. goodluck to you, its life changing

Fuck you status are not reached by savings, this is the point where most people usually get it wrong perhaps winning a lottery won't give the chance of retiring at an early age. Fuck you status are met at the point where monthly, annual and yearly investments has be deployed firmly, it is not just a source of income that will temporarily fit to sustain one's initial need, fuck you status should be at the point where  these build ups can last past several generations.

I found out the best kind of fuck you status are those solid on digital assets, digital firms and companies not just an organization of workers that will one day reduce production and success rate due to certain level of advancement leaving them behind.

The FIRE concept is a very interesting financial concept. I am currently reading many articles on this topic.

The main difficulty faced by a person who wants to achieve financial independence is how to earn the initial capital. Very often, a hired worker receives a salary that is enough only to cover current expenses (rent, utilities, travel to and from work, food, shoes, clothes, simple entertainment).

Meanwhile, for the purposes of the FIRE concept, income must significantly exceed expenses. Because it is net profit that is the source of funds for investment.

That is, an apologist for the FIRE concept must either become a highly qualified and highly paid employee or the owner of a successful business. Both tasks are quite difficult.

For those who are that having that being born on a family which does have that good financial status on which you would really be having a good start up just in case you would really be having plans on starting up some investment or business even into your early years on getting independent. Actually majority that those who would really be struggling is into those people who had entered the marriage life at early age on which they havent been able to prepared themselves and thats why on the moment that they have decided on starting up some business or investment, then they cant be able to do so not unless if they are on managerial or higher position then they could be having the budget, but what if not? You would really be just that living to pay up on daily expenses and with your debts and thats why not all people will really be that easily be trying out to get along with this FIRE plan. There are those factors on which will definitely affect your plans even if you wanted into but since that kind of incapability will definitely be a huge hindrance for you to achieve success. It is really just that easy to give out some advise like this and like that but if you are on the foot of those people then you will be able to tell that it wasnt really that easy at all. Somehow, everything could really be that possible and it will really be that up to you on how you would be handling yourself on these challenges because if you wanted to have that success in life then you will be testing out at least before making up some giving up conclusions.

As someone who wasn't born to some wealthy family (we were okay though, we weren't welfare level, my father worked and earned enough to survive thankfully) and got married very young, I can testify for this. It's very hard because first of all, you are not from a wealthy family so you are not given anything, my parents never gave me any money for me to survive, secondly when the time comes and you marry right away? That means you never had any time in between, so you never saved.

So you are now paying for your college still, you are paying for maybe the wedding and marriage and the house, rent or maybe mortgage don't know what level you are on, and building that house, and that takes years too. After that maybe a kid? Then you pay for everything for the kid. Suddenly, you are in your late 30's and you never saved an ounce, maybe even in debt, because you never got ready. I am not saying this has to be your future, but there are a lot of us like that.

You are so annoyingly dogmatic sometimes.  #justsaying.

I hate to repeat myself, since I think that I already made my point, and your end of story does not seem to resolve the issue.

One thing about truly being in FIRE status is the ability to chose, since if a person is truly financially independent, then he can choose his activities, including whether some of it might include work or entering into obligations (and/or contracts with others that involve services being done by the FIRE person).

Sure a person could lie to himself in regards to exactly where he is at or how obligated he might be, or whether he does his accounting himself (which is a kind of work) or hires accountants and lawyers to do those things.


You can define things however you like, but it neither means you are correct or that others are going to agree with your way of categorizing matters (activities and/or statuses).


You made a lot of good points earlier, but now you seem to be devolving into your sometimes quasi-retarded self... Not that I don't like you and/or your points, but sometimes you collapse into nearly pure ridiculousness and seeming to want to argue for the mere sake of it.


I'll have to ask you, since I won't be able to know it on my own.

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Sure.  Sometimes I might touch upon some personal issues, as examples, yet I am not merely talking about my own status when I discuss this topic or any other forum topic.


The no true bitcoiner argument, right?

I will admit that many aspects of managing investment portfolios and/or the bitcoin component within will have both financial and psychological elements.  Another thing that I frequently argue is that if any of us prepare our own finances in such a way that we are prepared for BTC price moves in either direction, then our psychology will likely take care of itself... so in some sense, having good financial management leads to better psychology.

Regarding how any of us spends our days could be another story.  If I might have various amenities such as housing, food, transportation, entertainment in place, yet if I might want to add to such amenities to buy some hookers, lambos and blow, then that is going to change some obligations that I might have in regards to not only the transactions that might be involved and also the extent to which I might enter into obligations in regards to how to manage those hookers, lambos and blow.. will some of that be work?  perhaps?  Perhaps I am changing my obligations and my mindset might not be correct when I choose the purchase of such goods and services. 

Let's say that I am getting a bit bored, and I drive by an apartment complex that has around 30 units, and I think that maybe it would be fun to buy it, and then to either hang out there or maybe renovate some of it, or maybe just run it to the ground.. or change the tenants.  Perhaps the complex is going to cost me around $15 million to buy, and then it might cost me another $5 million to have fun with it.. sure there might be some work, but it seems like something that I am interested in.. Is my mindset wrong because I chose an activity that might involve a combination of work and fun?  Let's say that I have around 1,500 bitcoin, so it is not like I have money issues, even though I still might have some issues about how to manage such 1,500 bitcoin.


Of course, for you it is simple, since you seem to know almost everything.


To me, it seems that shiny things can give meaning and experiences, too... but hey?  what do I know?


what makes you speculate that my buying hookers lambos and blows is motivated based on concerns about what others think?


You seem to know what is wasteful and what isn't and you seem to also presume that you are going to know whether obligations might be created by purchasing goods and/or services and also the extent to which those obligations are voluntary or forced.. or just following the herd as you seem to suggest to be an issue for some of us... perhaps even yours truly?


I am glad that you got that  figured out.


I would not want to get kidnapped or robbed.. so does that make me fitting for FIRE status?  or not?


I wouldn't want that, but sometimes if you want to keep the good body guard, you might sometimes need to work within their parameters.


I am glad that you are leading the way, so that you can tell us what it is like before we reach such status (or falsely believe that we have reached such status, when we hadn't).  Thanks for taking one for the team.


Your categorization of those three statuses seem a bit confusing and even stifling..

I would imagine that a lot of people in bitcoin have gained in various ways in regards to building up their bitcoin and having more and more options.  Whether guys choose to quit their jobs or how they choose to spend, invest, consume their wealth seems to have quite a bit of variance, even though surely we could try to put some of them into categories in order to better communicate how we might get there or how we might manage our spending once there, yet I have my doubts about your lecturing about what is meaningful and what is not meaningful is greatly helpful, even if some of us may well agree with some of your points.



I would suggest that there can be a considerable amount of flexibility in terms of how a guy might consider himself reaching fuck you status, and how he might project his ability to either stay in fuck you status or even to potentially continue to increase his wealth (or his level of fuck you status) after he had determined that he is already in it.  So surely, I have done quite a bit of discussion about how to attempt to make fuck you status sustainable, yet at the same time, if a guy might consider his timeline to be limited or maybe he even projects his timeline in a certain number of years, then he might just project how much of whatever wealth he had achieved to be spent within his projection of his timeline. 

I personally prefer to consider sustainability in terms of being able to perpetually spend from a guys investment, yet surely there can be life circumstances that might involve age and/or health that might cause someone to reasonably conclude that projecting a certain number of years is morre practical to their own circumstances.


You believe that there aren't ways to increase your income and/or cut your expenses in order to have money to invest, whether into bitcoin  or otherwise?  If you spend all of your money, then it becomes difficult to imagine how you will ever reach FIRE status, absent winning the lottery or some other miracle.

I think that part of the idea of FIRE is to help you to formulate your own destiny, even if there are likely going to be struggles along the way, and you are also not guaranteed to be successful in your efforts to reach your intended goal(s).


Some folks have more obstacles than others, and of course, the greater your income over your expenses, then the more you can invest and the greater could be your chances of expediting the process of actually reaching FIRE status, and so it could make a difference if you are able to invest $10 per week, $100 per week, $1,000 per week or some other amount in terms of making meaningful progress... including figuring out how much time that you have to do it.. 30-40 years? or some shorter period?  Of course, getting there faster would be nice, but you still have to work within your parameters and if you are able to improve your parameters.

I saw this topic earlier than now but I refrained from making comments as I wanted people to add their comments. What I want to add is that some of the points OP raised may not guarantee financial independence because it is far more than what you think. However, there is a one common denominator that most often work for all which is investing and controlling expenditure. I have seen a few comments that supports getting multiple jobs and diversifications and I just smile knowing that working your ass off will only make you financially comfortable but not rich as there are rarely rich people who are employees.

Investing stand out and by investing, it could be in the form of investing time and resources into a business idea or a product and nurturing same into fruition. It could also be in the form of investing money into the ideas and businesses of others such as owning a share in a company or startup. It can come in different nature but investing is surely the way to financial independence and early retirement. Bitcoin is definitely an option that someone can be intentional about and see his life transformed in a decade or two.

yes being F.I gives you options but if you want to Continue Employment, you would be F.I.C.E
your still missing the point of RETIRING EARLY the R.E part of F.I.R.E

well warren, bill, and elon have not retired so its pretty self explanatory they are not in R.E
i still find it absolutely funny how you want to debate such a simple concept of a obvious acronyms meaning


funny thing is i am personally in F.I.R.E so i know it more than you, yet you want to redefine it and think that C.E is the same as R.E
even a tax man can tell the difference

seems you, with no experience of it, are the one that wants to redefine it.. where as the acronym is pretty self explanatory.. im still not sure why you are even debating it
if you want to work so be it but dont pretend you want to be retired and a worker at the same time

i think you need to learn what retiring actually involves. its you trying to collapse the logic and common sense of simple understanding thing into ridiculous concepts

and by the way.. i was giving advice about how your mindset will change when you reach FIRE. i was trying to give you a heads up. kind of like a 'what would you tell your younger self to prepare them' thing.. and its you that wanted to twist it into a debate

yes F.I gives you the choices, freedoms and options.. but the final 2 letters show a choice you made


well this is getting into some good discussion detail.. for instance many people whom are home parenting argue that cleaning the house is 'work' or that they feel that they shouldnt have to do the housework if they do actual work but had a spouse at home..
.. well normal life chores which need to be done whether you work or not, whether in a relationship or not is not "work" its just life
for instance maintaining a car or your home is things everyone does no matter their employment status.. ordering food, changing your babies diaper, getting your yearly car checks done, changing the oil. cleaning the house.. are all part of LIFE not work

yes you can hire someone to do things, hire a maid, butler, groundsman, to make your LIFE easier.. you can choose to hire a hoe instead of the drama of dating for a proper relationship.. but thats not then to say its "work" if you have to do normal life obligations yourself

we see it all the time on social media skits and reels, women who are single and doing it all themselves call it "independent woman" like its a special thing.. yet reality is its just being an adult doing normal life stuff


i dont know everything due to some magic spell cast on me from birth.. i actually take the time to learn, to experience and then to help others learn also..

as for the manner/attitude/way i explain things.. im not obligated to be anyones tutor/mentor, i dont have to act in a boy scout manner when i give advice..
if you think those who offer advice, tips,info,education should do so in a soft, cuddly, kissy-kissy, ass licking, admiring manner, then i think your experience of educators should be reported to the authorities as sexual grooming


again shiny things might seem important for you now. but they will get boring for you later

lets use some base levels here to explain what i mean
imagine you are super poor and cant even afford icecream.. you keep wishing and hoping to improve your finances so that you can buy as much icecream as you want...
.. later you reach financial security to afford icecream, you then learn that icecream is not as exciting as you thought, and you start to decide to not buy icecream at every icecream parlour you pass.. even if you can afford every icecream in sight.. you start a new mindset that you no longer need nor want to buy icecream now you can afford it

same with cars. when you buy your first super car, you then get bored or start realising its flaws, EG the roof height of a lambo means you feel claustrophobic, or that although it can reach 160mph, you only ever get to reach 40mph driving around town, most of the time you are under 10mph to avoid the many potholes and speedbumps damaging the car, so you decide you dont want another 6 lambo's and instead buy a sensible car

its like the christmas paradox
every kid gets excited about the prospects of what they might get at christmas, months before christmas.. but fast forward to just days, weeks, month after christmas that excitement has dampened to such a point that the new phone they wished for and promised to cherish, is now being thrown around like a baseball, where the kid doesnt care if the screen gets cracked they dont want to handle it carefully no more. to them its just another item to hold until the next exciting thing comes to mind

if you have a supercar in mind that you wish for now.. and dream about taking good care of forever as its your lifetimes dream.. ask yourself the question just 6 months after driving it whether its still the perfect lifetimes dream car.. or just something you have now until you find something else

..
you will see your mindset change as your options change, goodluck and i truly do hope you reach your goals

Sure, it is funny in regards to how presumptuous you can be in your lil strawman arguments and fantasy creations.


Sure, in your post, you may have made a few more points that might be considered potentially interesting, yet largely I consider you to be making strawman arguments, and even arguing against yourself in terms of repetitive kinds of assertions about what you consider to be the person with true retired options.

I gave you some examples regarding how guys might choose to spend their time, and their time could be spent in productive activity or they could be spending time in various hobbies that they choose and they may or may not get paid for their participation in such hobbies.

I am pretty sure that I already asserted that if a person is largely (or even completely) living off of his investments, and he can choose whether or not to work, then he likely fits into the FIRE status.

I don't give too many shits about details that you seem to believe matter, since there is already a lot of power that comes from not having to work, and then choosing activities from there, and surely we could have situations in which guys were planning on continuing to work, and then things happen with their work (their cashflow), and so they might choose whether to replace their previous work with new work or they might decide if they already have sufficient finances in place in order to largely continue to support their previous standard of living.  

There are likely levels of obligations, and surely there may well be differing ways in which income is described on tax forms including if the income is considered to come from working or not or from performance or not, yet sometimes the lines are not clear from merely how the income is described,  and some folks choose to continue to have their "businesses operating" so that they largely end up counting many of their spending as "company expenses," so there can be quite a bit of variation.

I recall a business credit card that I had received recently, and there are various benefits on the credit card, and it is described as a card that needs to be for the business and not for personal expenses.  Interesting how that might be divided and allocated on various personal categorizations of money, including perhaps some of the employees who also ended up receiving credit cards that fell under the same business.  Will any of us be doing any work in the sense that Franky1 considers to be work?  Y

ou have some strange ideas about how matters need to be treated and which folks you consider to be free and not free, and perhaps the FI is the ONLY part that really matters in the FIRE acronym?  Even though I have been participating in this thread, I did not come up with such dumb acronym, even though I am quite fond of what I thought to be the idea of FIRE being similar as the idea of a guy having had determined that he had reached fuck you status.. which surely is enough detail for my own consideration of the matter, and there can be a lot of variance when it comes down to personal application, and whether the lifestyles (or the mindset) are sufficiently free for you (Franky1)./

retired options (meaning remaining retired) is not to go back to work, as obviously you are not retired if you are working
retired options are to: stay home, or do chores, hobbies, or go travelling, socialising and other life stuff.. not involving work*

*work: obligated labour in exchange for income

you keep asserting that going back to work or continuing to work is somehow retiring/being retired, when you keep insanely determining that people can be in work whilst in FIRE status

the FI is important if you want full financial independence(FI) to make ANY choice INCLUDING returning to or continuing work.. but adding the RE means you chose to retire and do life stuff instead, not work stuff

i dont care if you personally want to work after you reach FI (your F U status) but dont describe yourself as retired whilst still affirming that you are working, it makes no sense

as for your last paragraph, you could have just said you dont want to be part of(what you call) a 'dumb acronym' of FIRE. and instead you just want to reach the FI status and continue to have the philosophy to work if you want to
there is no problem and i have no problem with you just wanting to be FI

but the philosophy of FIRE is about the retiring part, as thats what the RE intended meaning is

....

any way
your weird redefinitions of common sense terms has just dramatised this topic more then it needs to

getting back to the topic
working a normal job thats not sufficiently paid wont get you any significant chance to become FI or enter FIRE status
however investments that self accrue and grow at a better than inflation rate, can offer you better chances to reach FI or decide to enter FIRE status
bitcoin definitely helps, and proven has helped me and others already, and can help alot more yet to reach FI

Many life journeys may be passed differently and that generally happens in our environment.
Some people actually enjoy life in a more wasteful way but they have good financial resources to fulfill their lives in old age. Some others actually live under financial pressure because even though they have lived a frugal life, they are still unable to prepare for life in old age to be better.
Talking is much easier than implementing patterns because maybe one person's life is different from another person's life and even though they have been well prepared, their lives still do not go as desired.

I believe that life needs to be prepared but we believe in the creator so that if it is done the right way, the old age that we will live will definitely be passed in a much better way because the most important thing in life is about enjoying it not feeling afraid.

The difference in how to live life in each person cannot be denied because it will always exist in every individual, but for those who continue to want to implement better life plans and patterns, they will definitely not talk much if their own goals have not been achieved. Because you yourself can also see that people who only prefer to talk without implementing a work plan for themselves are people who still have a lazy nature so that these people still often comment on the methods used by others, even though they themselves do not do anything.

There is nothing to be afraid of in this life as long as we still have the ability to work and fix every step we take towards a better direction. Because people who are still afraid of bad old age conditions are people who still have excessive pessimism so that people no longer count their own efforts and efforts from now on. In fact, everyone who already has a good old age is based on the steps they take now because it is part of the preparation for themselves and also for the people around them.

All that you've said make sense, really. It's true that many of the folks that did investments in some other things like in other assets that were doing well in the past but it didn't in the future. While some are putting money with their ROTH IRA and that's what they're leaning towards in the future for their retirement. Each of us for sure went through fire and tested by time and we're fortunate that we're into Bitcoin and this is no doubt the best asset, store of value by time if we'd look at the gains and growth of it. I agree that even with so little in Bitcoin holdings, anyone needs to take care of it until retirement or if that's the choice of anyone here like you and me not to spend all that we've got. Spend some but save more. This is totally what we can put as a candidate for a life changing investment into this era. I think we can say that we're also lucky that we're part of this generation and Bitcoin has came at the right time for most of us. It is imperative when someone who's got some BTC at the early days need to keep it at least 1 or even 0.1 BTC and make it as a goal whether it's for FIRE or some future goals, it just suits everyone's dreams and goals.

I agree, if someone can delay the purchase of the house for at least one more cycle. He/she will have to sell fewer bitcoins while keeping the rest of it. But that's it, if it's in immediate action and there's a need to purchase that, that's fine, as long as the person doing that is happy. And like what people used to say, "take profits when happy". But still, don't forget to keep and save some for future references as Bitcoin is here to stay.

Going to that goal of reaching a position where there is not that much stress at all could go with a lot of things. It could go through with such politics, such skills and experience. So, someone has to choose their career path whether they're on this and retire early based on their game plan with their lives. It's not an easy goal to reach to that point but it is not impossible. But the good thing with this is that, we've got other options through investing and like what we're here, through holding and owning Bitcoin.

If you are scared of staying poor at old age, then when you are working is the right time for you to plan for your old age by investing in bitcoin to take care of whatever fear in your old age. Life is all about planning, and working towards achieving your goal with all seriousness and focus for it to become reality. However, if you fail to plan for your old age by buying at building your bitcoin portfolio, that's is when you will be very vulnerable to fear and suffering at old age because you failed to secure your old age after retirement. Bitcoin is giving you the opportunity to throw your extra cash into for the future, unlike other assets that isn't easy for a poor man to invest in.

You are correct, Bitcoin is one of the best investment right now in the world, and one of the reasons why I said so is because Bitcoin investment is very accommodating, no matter how small your source of income is you can still accumulate or go into Bitcoin investment, yes Bitcoin is expensive but is divided into small units so with $3 you can accumulate.
The reason why some people become poor in there old age is because they didn't plan there finance very well, as a worker you need to have a retirement plan, and that plan should be building an investment that will help you financially when you are not working anymore, there are different kind of investment you can go into in other to secure your future however any investment that can be controlled by the government should be invested with caution, because you can lose everything if the government decides to make a policy that will work against your investment, there was something that happened in a country, a man built a crude oil refinery and was managing it by himself, some years later the government of that country decided that crude oil refining will only be done by the government and that private refinery will no longer have power to refine crude oil in that country, that was how the man lost his investment.
So investing on something the government can control is very risky and that is another reason why Bitcoin investment is one of the best investment in the world no government has control over it.

As long as you know where you are heading to and you know your goals in life, it means, you are living for something. Because when you lose the interest of living, it means, you can't find something that will drive you to continue your life, whether for you or your own family. Sometimes you need to find the reason of living to find a way how to survive in your everyday challenge.


However, not all people are acquianted in this market, hence, they will invest in other options such as real-estate, precious metals and other tangible assets. Either way, as long as he knows what he's doing with his assets, he has the chance to reap his profits in the future. Because the main point of investing is to earn profit later on.

Yes, whatever you said is very true and I fully agree with you. There are some people who start their journey from low income and overtime if they follow F.I.R.E path then they'll keep increasing their income overtime and may still reach financial independence in early age. Investing $10 is better than investing nothing per week and that $10 can turn into $20 or more when it's invested into a good asset like Bitcoin over the course of some years or months depending on its popularity.

The ones who started investing $10 or $20 per week into Bitcoin from 2015-2016 are still in enough profit and they might reach F.I.R.E status sooner than the ones who start investing in it from today, but after 10 years the ones who invested in it during 2015-2016, and the ones who started investing in it from today, both will win, and there's chance that both group of investors might be free from financial issues after next 10-20 years and they may retire earlier than their colleagues.

Obviously, you lack nuance in your proclamations.


Maybe I can give some example?  not that it is going to change the mind of a dogmatist like you, Franky1, but here goes.

I am in the process of minding my own business, and perhaps consuming a few hookers, lambos and blow, and go out on a day trip (such as a picnic and a hike into the hills and then a swim at the beach), and so on the way back to one of my yachts, I decide to stop by the steak and lobster place to grab a bite and maybe warm up the atmosphere for a later midnight snack, and while I am in the steak house, I bump into one of my old friends from college (or high school), and I decide to invite him to have some steak and lobster and buy him a drink, since it has been a year or more since we had seen each other.  In the process of our conversation, I find out that in the next couple of days he is going to be moving, and I also find out that he had been buying bitcoin, yet he was still confused about how to store his bitcoin, and he describes some of his BTC buying practices to me. Maybe I spend more than an hour talking with the guy as we are chowing down on our meal and enjoying our drinks, and after such conversation, I decide that I am going to want to spend some more time with the guy, so I offer to help him move, and I suggest to him that we should also get together within the month and go over various aspects of bitcoin, so I consider that such future meetings will be good for both of us.

A month later, it ends up being that I had spent a couple of days helping the guy move, and I even ended up helping him to paint one of his bedrooms, and I ended up calling one of my construction buddies so that the construction buddy could change two of his doors, add a shower door to one of his bathtubs and add a closet to one of his bedrooms.  I also ended up meeting with him twice to go over various bitcoin related matters, which also involved my giving him assignments on the first meeting so that we would be able to go into more depth in our second meeting.

At the end of the month, after our 4th or 5th meeting, I suggested that we should stay in touch more, and my friend told me that he was really happy with how much he had benefitted from our meetings, and he said that he was not sure exactly how to pay me back, and I told him that I did not really care either way if he paid me back or not.  He told me that he would think about how he was going to pay me back, and he would get back with me about that, and I repeated that it does not really matter to me, either way.

About two weeks later, the guy contacted me, and he said that he wanted to meet for lunch sometime, and so we arranged a lunch, and at the lunch he gave me $2k in cash, $5k in bitcoin (after I showed him a bitcoin receiving address) and 7-day cruise tickets for two persons (with open dates to be used within a year to a destination that we had previously discussed to be of an interesting potential for me) that were valued around $5k.  I told him that he did not need to buy me anything, and he said that he really valued my help in those matters, and he thinks that he had gotten more value from our exchange rather than the value that I had gotten, and so he wanted to compensate me for the value that he perceived himself to have had been getting.  

He told me about our mutual friend who also could use similar kind of help, and he suggested that in the coming months that we meet up with our mutual friend to help him in similar kinds of ways, which implied that the compensation would be similar.  I told him that I would get back with him about my thoughts on the matter of the mutual friend, about whether I wanted to do it, and if so how it might fit into my schedule.  He said o.k., and about two weeks later, I got back with him and proposed a schedule in which I largely accepted our planned future project, and with a kind of implication that either he or our friend would probably end up insisting on paying me some kind of a similar amount.


Sure.  That is more or less correct in regards to what I am asserting.


It seems quite likely that you go wrong in your trying to determine what is "work" versus "life" stuff, and surely I could concede that there could be some people who deceive themselves in regards to their own self-descriptions in regards to their level of financial independence and how it might apply to their abilities to say fuck you regarding any work relation that they might enter, which implies that sometimes the voluntariness of the involvement of any supposed financially independent person in any such work that he agrees to perform could be more compromised than such persons are willing to admit.

Perhaps you and I differ in how much weight or how much we want to get into details in regards to figuring out the extent to which the activities of purportedly financially independent persons are voluntary or not, and it seems that I hardly give too many shits about those kinds of details, and you want to jump in and proclaim those kinds of details as if they are deal breakers and/or that they eliminate certain persons from self-proclaiming as being in fuck you status or FIRE status or filthy rich status or whatever merely because they are not jumping through appropriate Frank1 definitional hoops.


You also make little sense, so there is that angle, too.   :P

 :D :D :D :D

though from time to time, to the extent that you are not bordering on annoying, you do provide some humor in your ongoing insistences upon your own definitional and quasi-psychotic frameworks.


I am glad that I received your permission regarding the conditions upon I might be allowed to include the RE portion into my own self-descriptions.  

At the same time, I am not sure if my behaviors are going to change very much, since sometimes there can be questions in regards to which projects to take on or to get into, and surely some projects could involve some receiving money back rather than just paying into them, and some projects might also require additional work from me in order to do them, or they might involve some contracting of labor of others that may or may not involve some money coming back to me based on the efforts of those other people I had contracted to help me with such projects... which even the 30 unit apartment that I had described earlier has an income generating component to it, even if my goals might not have had been to make money from it, yet I am not going to complain if aspects of the project pay for itself, too..

Another example could be that I really like going to a bar/restaurant that is in my neighborhood, and one day I go to the bar/restaurant and the owner tells me about some of his personal issues that contribute towards his inabilities to continue to operate the bar/restaurant.  He describes to me that in the past few years, his management of the bar/restaurant has been in the ballpark of 4-10 hours per week and he also shares the bar/restaurant finances with me, which show it to be ongoingly profitable and largely self sustaining.. not quite passive income, but pretty close to it in terms of how much work (implying the 4-10 hours per week) might be required.  He asserts that due to his own personal circumstances, he is going to have to sell the bar/restaurant which truly would run a likely risk that the bar/restaurant would end up changing into something else.. and so within that discussion, I decide that I am going buy the bar.  Surely it is already contemplated that I may well be adding 4-10 hours of work to my weekly life, yet I also may well already have systems in place in which I am able to delegate that 4-10 hours of work and continue to get the benefits of the restaurant to stay within similar practices as it had been, even though I would have the burden of transitioning into being an owner of that bar/restaurant rather than merely a customer of it..
 

Could be that you are correct, but it also could be that we disagree in regards to how much weight to ascribe to the RE portion of such self-classification and/or how we choose to talk about it.. Does that mean that we are largely engaging in a semantical, rather than substantive, argument?  Could be? Could be?


Speak for yourself.   :P :P


It depends on the quantity of discretionary income and it also may well depend upon how such discretionary income is invested.  Investing into bitcoin has proven to be a really great place to put value and to end up receiving disproportionate payouts.

Both you and I  (not trying to presume too much about your particulars) are likely great examples of abilities to invest potentially modest amounts into bitcoin and to potentially benefit in disproportionately grand ways.

Let's just go by our proclaimed times of entering into bitcoin rather than the details of our own particular circumstances, and in accordance with your forum registration date, sure you likely could have had gotten into bitcoin in 2012, yet let's just go with a worser-case scenario date, such as using my own timeframe of entering into bitcoin, and let's say that a normal person got into bitcoin right around the same time as me, in late 2013 (and using December 1 as our start date), and if such person modestly invested right around $100 per week into bitcoin from December 1, 2013 until present, such person would have had invested right around $58k into bitcoin over such time, and up until now, such person would have had accumulated right in the ballpark of 46.33 BTC (https://dcacryptocalculator.com/bitcoin/?start_date=2013-12-01&finish_date=2025-01-07&regular_investment=100&currency_code=USD&investment_interval=weekly&exchange_fee=0.02), and surely there are a lot of persons who could have had participated in a fairly normal job and amassed $100 per week for the accumulation of bitcoin over the past 11-ish years, no?  You surely cannot be saying that having 46.33 BTC based on a $58k investment over the past 11 years had not amounted to an a sufficient about of wealth building in order to have had gotten to FIRE status?

Personally, I am not even proclaiming any need to rely upon current BTC spot prices in order to make my own proclamation that there are a decent number of normal people who could likely proclaim and enter into FIRE status based on a current accumulation of a BTC stash of 46.33 BTC, which has a 200-WMA valuation that is close to $2million, and a spot price valuation that is more than double that (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX19uVPwfvDcE8VhePVQY9QiQv8rAjpDz2oI0grNPNsEDq3QZKzNDyeZxtCGTWOc6vv8meWsdWAtfHA==).  Whether they exercise the RE portion or not within Franky1 requisitions seems to be optional from my own perspective, and we can agree to disagree about the RE portion, yet I think that even you would have a hard time arguing that a normal person would not have had been able to accumulate enough wealth in the past 11-ish years, if he had chosen to focus on accumulating bitcoin during that time.   Sure, past results do not guarantee future results, yet if we are trying to make proclamations about where a person today might be, we likely have to consider past results in terms of assessing how they got to where they are at rather than projecting what any similarly situated normal person may or may not be able to do in terms of their choice to invest into bitcoin (or something else) in the upcoming 11 years-ish.


At least, for the moment, until you may well come in and shift the goal posts, we seem to agree on these last couple of assertions of yours.


Sure, I cannot know your own historical BTC accumulation particulars, except maybe to the extent that you might want to disclose some of them, and at the same time, I will assert that it is not necessary to get too much into the particulars of any of us in order to attempt to describe a story or to make some points in regards to what role BTC accumulation might have had played in where we are at, how we got here and/or where we might be going from here.

Even your own forum registration date of early 2016 could have provided time for your to have had accumulated a decently good size BTC stash as compared with your own financial/psychological particulars, yet surely there are likely a lot of us who may or not have been in a very good situation to have had been able to accumulate as many bitcoin as we could have had accumulated or what we should have accumulated, so we have to figure out how we are going to go forward based on your own individual particulars (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719590#msg58719590) as they are right now rather than getting too caught up upon any past mistakes that we might have had made in regards to our level of BTC accumulation aggressiveness.

It seems to me that anyone currently knowing about bitcoin and willing to take action to start to accumulate BTC as aggressively as they are able to do (without overdoing it) is in a way better position than persons who either don't know about bitcoin or they are not in a position in which they are ready, willing and able to act to accumulate bitcoin as aggressively  as they are able to do.

I do understand that there may well be people who are not able to invest into bitcoin because they are busy investing into themselves and/or investing into building job skills so that they can improve their future earnings, yet it still seems to me that anyone who knows about bitcoin is still going to be in a better position to figure out ways to invest time, energy and/or value into bitcoin, even if they might have some reasonably important and valuable competing interests.


There are quite a few people who have come to realize that they overvalued real estate (such as buying their own residence) and they undervalued bitcoin in terms of how much bitcoin would continue to appreciate relative to property values.  There are still a lot of people mistakingly making those kinds of assessments.

none of this sounds like obligated employment
none of this sounds like work
it sounds like favours and chores and showing appreciation for friends

it seems you lack even knowledge of what WORK is.. vs doing a friend a favour and them repaying you some how
heck you even call your 'help' and helping a friend..
you didnt mention client, employer, customer

so its obvious that your example is not a form of obligated work for a contracted salary/income

again no obligation, no contract, no wording of customer, client, employer.. instead its all about helping a friend
none of this sounds like obligated employment


im going to give up at this point at reading your endless walls of text of gibberish of you thinking that retirement is not retirement and how its actually still work
(facepalm: im starting to think you have no clue about many general common sense concepts in society)

may you enjoy your life of endlessly being committed to work until the day of our death..
may you enjoy never experiencing FIRE

the stupid thing is if you really think that fire is as you deceive yourself to believe it is. then in your technical view you are already in FIRE... BUT reality of common sense shows that you are not and you just do not understand much about what work is and what retirement is to know the difference

i do hope you change your mindset and one day reach a target goal to actually enter fire (common sense definition).. but until then.. continue confusing yourself

you had your chance to learn and be educated by someone thats actually living the real FIRE lifestyle.. but instead your ego has pushed your into your self belief of your delusions and not allowed yourself to be open to learning things.... yet again(multiple topics of proof)

you have no idea what FIRE is all about and it seems you have no intention to learn AND no intention to actually be part of FIRE in the future.. so just give up replying on the topic you know nothing about and dont want to know anything and dont want to ever be part of

but i do wish one day you do put your ego aside and learn the possibilities of a better life in the future and one day want to aim for it. instead of the actions you play around with right now

It all matters about mentality because if you dont really have any plans on your life when it comes to progress and changes then you would be finding things to be hard and on which this will really be that resulting that you will be just that contented on what you have now and be just that wanted to work until you do gets old. For those who had been thinking about on having a better future or simply having that freedom from 8-5 job then they will be that trying out the possible ways or methods that they can be able to dig into. Yes, its true that not all starting up on a good point because of some factors or challenges in life but it doesnt mean that you will be having that 0% of hitting success. You wouldn't know unless you do try. The common issue of human beings is that if they've seen that its on the impossible side then they wont be making any actions.

We are all that wishing on having that financial freedom  because we do know that we can do all sorts of things as long you do have the money with your own time or simply you are the own boss of your own time and could do whatever you do want but of course achieving this condition doesnt really come easy on which this one really involves tons of hard work and dedication and discipline in regarding time management,risk management, emotion management and other important factors on which this will be able to sustain you out along the way. It do really just that a matter of dedication and sticking into your plans no matter what hard condition that you are currently in.

Oh gawd franky1....  ::) ::)

You seem to be agreeing with me, but still unable to really agree.. .You seem to want to ongoingly nitpick about nearly irrelevant nonsense.


Great.  We seem to kind of, sort of agree about something for a nanosecond.


Oh?  So you don't seem to have any problem that we are going to agree to a schedule in advance, and it is quite likely that the guy is going to end up paying me?

Maybe I should just rejoice in our seeming agreement rather than attempting to undermine it?


Great.  I win because franky1 gave up.   :D :D :D :D


Are you trying to be a BIG meanie?


I am thinking that I was largely in FIRE since about late 2013, yet do I need to describe my whole life and my activities in order to convince you?

It's not like we are going to agree, and it is not like I have any desire to provide those kinds of details within the context of this topic, even if there have been various posts that I have described some of my various work, business, investment-related activities, yet frequently it still can become problematic to flesh out details that largely are not even very relevant to various overall points that are being made, especially since I had already explained several times that from my own point of view (and your seemingly ongoing disagreement) the FI  portion of our discussion remains way more important than getting into what may or may not constitute sufficiently adequate and/or meaningful kinds of RE activities (or non-activities).


It seems that I have been talking about this topic (at least the FI portion of it) for most of my time on the forum, even though also from my perspective, it is quite likely that my ideas have also been evolving during those 11-ish years, and I am not even convinced that my framework is insufficient for the consideration and ongoing discussing of the FIRE matter, even if you are proclaiming some particulars of the criteria (specifically the RE portion) to be more relevant than I have been allowing within my own framing and contemplation of the matter.


Why can't we just agree to disagree rather than your wanting to proclaim a superior perspective on the matter?

It could well be that I am way too dumb to relate to your obviously superior perspective?  I might need to ponder from this angle further, and stop allowing my smug wannabe know-it-all-ness from continuing to get in the way and screw up my own ideas regarding the difference between work and not work.  Based on what little I am able to understand from your more enlightened viewpoint, it seems that my consideration of my own free-will needs to be drawn into question.

I might have to incorporate more yoga into my daily routine.  Daily pushups since last February are just not helping me to better understand myself and/or the extent to which my daily activities are work or not.. Probably a guy needs to better understand himself if he wants to attempt to relate to others, too.. Right?


Ok... You got me.  I may well be trying to infiltrate FIRE by de-emphasizing the RE portion, so I am not really sure how to cause the RE to get added back into my way of thinking, especially since whatever you said has not been helping to make sure that I don't lose any more of the RE than what it seems that I had already lost in my prior corrupted mentality on the topic.


Good thing that this is not a moderated thread, and good thing that you are not calling the shots in regards to what is relevant and what is not, including your own proclamations about what is a valid mental framework, especially since it could well be possible (if you ever did consider the matter?) that I might be more correct on the topic than you.  Did you ever think that could be possible?  Maybe we should spell it FIre rather than capitalizing all of the letters in the acronym.. .. Perhaps even FIre might be even better?  I am not 100% convinced either way, even though it is possible that your ongoing obsession about the RE portion may well have inadvertently highlighted an important discussion point.


Hm?  There may well be times that my ego becomes a bit stronger than it needs to be, and surely I don't even consider myself to be a very strong-ego'ed person,  so sure it could well be true that sometimes the ego could get in the way, and some of us might not even realize that our ego is part of the problem.

How do you consider yourself and your own ego in regards to battling around forum ideas?  Do you consider yourself to be a forum member who does not let his ego to get in the way of his various discussion points? 

Surely, you consider yourself to be better at controlling your ego than me, and so maybe there could be a problem that I am one of those guys who happens to be the hero in his own journey, yet at the same time, I don't even realize how I am failing/refusing to adequately contemplate ideas outside of my own lil fantasies of the world? 

I am thinking the possibility that I better get working on myself, especially since I had not even realized how much I happen to be the problem that I have been trying to fix.. it is not you, it is me.  I think that you are absorbed into dogmatic definitions and nonsense, but I am just not giving your stupid-ass ideas enough time to resonate... I am jumping to conclusions and not really contemplating how RE is actually equally important as FI.. or at least in the ballpark of equal.

Maybe if I don't really want to do yoga, then perhaps stretching might at least start to lead me down a better path towards adjusting my mentality, even though I am not really going to want to give up my daily pushups?  At least, I am considering possible adjustments that might be within something that I may well be willing to add into the realm of possible. right?

i fully understand your philosophy is to be financially independent to have full choice/options to work or retire
being FI is one thing, and there are many topics about it,

but you have wasted many days and posts of lengthy text trying to presume retirement is inclusive of working

those that want to be in fire want to retire early and not work

you want to be in FI and have both options to work or not. i get it, no issues in regards to your desires for yourself to be financially independent

just stop with the silly walls of text pretending people that planned to retire and enter early retirement could, should, will work again but pretend to still remain in fire

and no silly games about pretending favours for friends is equal to employment, as that just puts you in a deeper misunderstanding of societal norms/common sense

---

back to the topic for those interested in FIRE

what most of whom yet to reach FIRE dont realise is when they do reach it their mindset does change
(as said before but interrupted) its like the christmas paradox and other things some might know about

if you are poor and unable to afford steak dinner/icecream desserts.. when you finally reach a sustainable living situation to afford steak/icecream daily, you suddenly dont have the excitement to want/enjoy steak/icecream daily as it will get boring
same for christmas the anticipation of objects is more exciting than the long term use of said products once you have them

your plans for owning 7 lambos and buying kilos of blow will change.. you might want to go clean and drive a suitable car
so keep it in mind when planning your retirement. plan for your priorities and desires to change. and dont fear change

i personally prefer to travel and explore new regions. i get more happiness tipping a underpaid waitress with amounts that ease their whole months finances, more so than impressing the neighbours with the latest lambo

alot of you think you cant retire unless your at a 2 mansion 7 lambo status. but here is the thing. you can retire early, for less
also you can have the wealth of the 7lambo 2 mansion status, but not need/want to buy such extravagance and thus leave the wealth invested to accumulate so that your offspring and descendants have better prospects

too many people think that you have to remain super frugal and live on beans and water even when in FIRE
too many people think that you have to risk it all to display richness by doing extravagant things

those are not the only 2 options of fire lifestyle.. if you plan a good target amount of financial freedom to then retire at a planned level of wealth/lifestyle of things that truly mean something to you, you can achieve a successful life in FIRE

That's how life goes and everyone has a different story in their own version, especially for the issue of financial achievement in living life in this world.
Humans are given reason to think and that is why we need to try to achieve success and the success of each person is different, what makes us the same is the way to fight to get that success.
Talking but not doing anything is the same as someone who doesn't have a life plan and usually this type of person finds it difficult to achieve success in finance because they don't fight to get it.

When we have a heart, feelings or emotions of fear are natural but that does not mean that fear will stop us from doing something to achieve success in life.
Planning will make us more mature to do it so that we can minimize excessive fear in efforts to develop self-potential.
Life in old age is a process of preparation that we do in our youth and if we do something right then life in old age will be much better, especially financial matters in meeting all the needs of life with family.

I don't recall saying that work is part of Financial independence, perhaps beyond engaging in some activities to keep track of financial matters, and surely there are some folks who contract out their accounting and/or their keeping track of financial matters, which could be an option for some people to choose... and sure, as I mentioned, it is also an option for people to choose to work or not to work, even when they have financial independence.

It seems that I did not even say, either way, whether I work or not, even though I proclaim to largely be financially independent since late 2013-ish... surely, not a bad place to have had been,  and yeah continue to be..

If you are interested (or others might be interested), at the bottom of this linked post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719591#msg58719591), you can see how I had categorized various of my financial allocations between late 2013 and mid-2022, and I had not updated to put in some categories since mid-2022.. but you could get some ideas in regards to how my BTC portion had changed between late 2013 and mid-2022, and surely from my ongoing forum post history, you (or anyone else) might have had been able to extrapolate further information of what might have had happened in regards to my finances after mid-2022 until present, to the extent any of it might be relevant in regards to any of my personal investment allocation details that might be of interest to anyone who might be wanting to compare and/or contrast - and surely, I had mentioned that sometimes these kinds of matters of allocation can be points of discussion that may come up with any of us in regards to if we might be wanting to change any of our allocations in great ways or to largely let our allocations ride without necessarily making any major changes to them.


You got it figured out from your own point of view, which again, you seem to be creating strawman arguments, but what else is new?


I doubt that I am talking as specifically about myself as you are making it out to be, yet I do perceive that a person can be in FI and optionally choose the extent to include any RE within their activities.


My posting choices in regard to either wether or length is within my discretion, so I doubt that your demands in regards to my post quantity, quality or frequency is going to have much of any affect upon those kinds of discretionary choices of mine.

And in regards to your interactions with me on this particular topic, I thought that you said that you were done with me?  I thought that I won due to your giving up, but you still want to argue about what seems to be differing perspectives on the topic (including substantive aspects in regards to the topic of this thread).


I doubt that common sense in accordance with franky1 is either common or makes sense... #justsaying.


It seems that I already responded to those ideas that you are repeating, and nothing wrong with some repetition and/or hearing about what you (or other guys) might like to do (within various kinds of discretion and/or options) while considering yourself (themselves) to be in FIRE status.

so you think work is part of retirement but now you want to suggest work is NOT an option for financial independence
(facepalm) now you have become a idiot troll(again) and im definitely going to treat you as such until your ready to think rationally
i honestly thought you made a change last year, but it seems you went backwards this year..

have a nice life and welcome back to the idiot group again(you know which one) which you did escape from for a while but it seems you want to join again, your welcome

dont reply just to act upset,
dont reply just because said dont reply,
dont reply just to show how stupid you can sound
just get the hint.. you got no clue and not willing to learn, so no point in you continuing in this conversation

..
i apologise to the other readers of this topic for JJG acting like a troll and trying to weirdly abuse/twist the definition, meaning, philosophy and lifestyle choices of FIRE to derail the topic into his weird word waffles
its not his fault he is just too young, naive and ignorant to know such things
one day how might learn, and i hope he does..someday

It seems to me that to the extent that I took any position, I repeatedly suggested that work is optional for someone who is financially independent.  You seem to be the one who is proclaiming that as soon as anyone does any kind of activity that might be considered to be work, within your own arbitrary and seemingly effervescent characterizations, then such person could neither consider himself to be within true  franky defined FIRE status and he could not refer to himself as being in FIRE status.  

You seem to be the one with strict definitions regarding what is and what is not FIRE status that I have been suggesting to be overly restrictive and even oppressive in and of themselves, especially if someone otherwise considering himself to have had been within FIRE status has to consult with the Franky1 dictionary of definitions to verify the extent to which he is not misrepresenting (or misconceptualizing his own status  - due to a potentially inadequate mentality) his actual fitting within FIRE status according to Franky1.


You are the retard, and it seems that I was merely trying to be nice in terms of entertaining your fantastical proclamations about what is and what is not FIRE status.


Oh gawd.. what a patronizing twat...and just making shit up about your memories of some of our other interactions when you probably were engaged in other nutjob assertions in regards to how you believe that the world should be.  

The mere fact that I send you smerits from time to time does not even mean that I agree with your frequent nonsense, in spite your sometimes making some points that seem to be worthy of recognition for their substance - including showing that even through your delusional self-aggrandizement practices, from time to time (and rare as it may be) you do sometimes have abilities to have posts demonstrating lucid and somewhat logical moments that may even substantively further the conversation in a meaningful direction.   By the way, it does not mean that you are smarter than everyone else merely since from time to time you might make some decently good posts.


As if I give any shits if you choose to live in your lil fantasy self-absorbed bubble.


Again. .that is your choice... I give few shits about your determinations, and I doubt that you show good judgement in regards to those choices anyhow.. so do what you like.


Why would I  be upset.


I tend to reply if I consider that some point might either be addressing me or I consider the point to be something that I would like to respond to.

Here  it seems that your barking out orders is largely just an attempt at manipulation.. which perhaps you are unable to stop yourself from doing.


For sure.  I admit that part.  I don't claim to have smart responses, and engaging with you is probably not very smart, since you frequently show that you have difficulties controlling your own emotions...including that many times you devolve from addressing substantive points, and you deviate into nonsensical and frequently irrelevant side talking points.


What is there to learn?  We have differing opinions, and you want to proclaim that you have some kind of higher knowledge on the topic merely because you consider your opinion to be superior.  I consider my opinions on this particular topic to be at least as good as yours, to the extent to which some of our topics might overlap, yet since we are tending to talk past each other in some areas, it is not like it can be conclusively determined that one perspective is better than the other, especially when some of the possible discussion areas are semantic rather than substantive.


I doubt that there is any need to apologize for me, and sure I will admit that I have some opinions about the topic that relate back to various ways of incorporating bitcoin investment into the topic, and yeah, we otherwise did go through some of the various ways that my opinion differs from yours in regards to how the RE portion of FIRE might be treated.  I probably should apologize for my own repetition in terms of engaging with Franky1, even though surely some  portions of our discussion might have been helpful to some members, and surely I am not even claiming that I better understand my own position to the extent that sometimes I might have had failed to keep some of Franky1's seemingly dogmatic ideas in some kind of a check to the extent it is even possible to find some common grounds with a stubborn twat like Franky1.


Again, you are devolving into a patronizing aire that comes off as mostly irrelevant to the extent that you are even qualified to assess based on my supposed incapacities rather than attempting to address actual substantive points that I made at various points in our discussion.  I imagine that many forum members zone out when discussions seem to devolve too far down into seemingly personal attacks rather than really attempting to battle around about some of the potentially important substantive talking points - which frequently I will consider that forum members are frequently more concerned about various ways that they might get to some kind of FIRE status and then also they may well be concerned how to stay within such FIRE status once getting there rather than getting too much caught up in seemingly meaningless battles about whether they self qualify for being within or outside of FIRE status depending on the extent that they might consider working or earning money while they are perceiving themselves to be within some variation of FIRE status, which likely there may even be borderline statuses that some of us might still consider to still fall within some variation of FIRE status even though such status might not fit with a Franky1 framing of what he believes to constitute actual FIRE status.

It seems like we are here also enjoying and following this warm conversation, the most important thing is that everything is good from both of you.

This F.I.R.E of a thing is easier said than done and what I strive for for me and my family is for us to be financially free and independent (F.I). As you can see, mine didn't get to the E as I eliminated the R.E. It's better this way because this retirement of a thing is subjective and I see it lazy to retire early (R.E). Why must I retire early when it is even beneficial healthwise not to do that? Activities matter too, we should not overhype early retirement.

It's really tiring to read two posters who create wall of text posts. :D

I like this point, just like I mentioned above, technically I can retire now in minimalist lifestyle, but I'm still continue to work. My worries are in two thing, first is money and second is my ability.

No one can know what will happen to me in the future, if I get fatal disease, I might not be in FIRE status anymore because I need to pay health care (not everything will be covered by insurance).

The second is, I like to train myself to be the best, this also make me can decrease the chance of getting Alzheimer because I always learn something everyday.

So yeah, FIRE is not for me, but I believe both of them are good choices, the only bad choice is choose to FIRE but didn't have enough money (become homeless and get donation/help from government to survive).

you are correct in this part.. FI has option to continue work
dont meander and mix up the notion of someone being FI, with someone thats in the FIRE philosophy
the RE has a important differential distinction compared to someone thats just FI.. learn the difference and things might start making sense for you

the rest of your waffle is you not understanding anything and misrepresenting everything
YOU are confused about
a. what work is
b. what retirement is
c. what kind of activity might be work
d. what fire is
e. what i said

YOU think doing favours for friends is the same as employment
YOU are the one trying to say retired people work if they have to do house chores, manage own finances, pay own bills, or maintain their car
YOU cant understand the difference between a favour, chore vs work
thus you have no comprehension of work..

then you want to redefine what retirement is..
its not "dogmatic meaning according to franky".. its actually societal common sense thats been known by billions of people even before you were born


so instead of wasting all of your daily crying time on this forum making wacky posts trying to play the idiot/victim of your own misunderstandings when someone points out your failures. take the time you usually take to post, to actually learn some stuff..
use your time wisely, for your own benefit.. learn some stuff (even if you think learning is work, try it)

use google, use some research resources, talk to other people in your life about common sense stuff, people you trust to tell you in a way you will accept even if it hurts your predisposition, preset notions..  learn how society works. learn how even the tax man defines the difference between income vs gift, learn some basic standards of life and common sense

stop wasting other readers time with your silly troll/fake victim games.

heck i know you want to next abuse the word 'independent'.. i can tell you are scratching at your computer desk, itching to spout out the next level of your game, you are just that type of person

just get the hint already, your idiot game is not subtle, you deserve to be put back in the idiot group. so take some time to mature and sort yourself out if you ever want to stop being called one

I am very happy to read the discussion created above, it really opens my mind about how we can achieve financial freedom before we die, because many people out there die before they even enjoy their lives, and in the end everything they live is in vain. I hope all of us get good things in life so that our lives are not in vain and FIRE is one way to achieve happiness (in my opinion).

FIRE status gives you a choice.

A choice most people don’t have.

That’s the most importantly aspect of achieving your FIRE status. Everything else that comes with it are just deal sweeteners.

If your passive income becomes equal to your income from your business/job and your job is something you wouldn’t do if you had a choice, that’s when you can make big changes in your life with zero risk of losing anything.

If you leave your job or close down your business before you achieve your FIRE status, there is a big chance that you might never get back to your previous job/business if things don’t go as planned.

Basically, you can do whatever the fuck you want, and if you don’t want to do anything, there is no penalty. I can’t think of a better life upgrade than that.

reaching FI alone from my experience was a multi-enlightening experience all should aim to feel aswell
(mental and physical weight lifted off shoulders)

reaching the point that your able to pay off your mortgage or if renting, paying off a years worth of rent and utilities. whereby it hits you:
a. you owe no one
b. you have no debts
c. no obligations
d. whats left in your account is all yours to do with as you please

having no debts is one level
having no obligations is another.. knowing what you have in your account is all yours.. just knowing you dont need to keep X, Y, Z aside to pay something due on a,b,c date is a mental relief in of itself

then knowing the amount in the account could pay for anything you like, but then realising you dont actually need it. is like a level 100 feeling

alot of times when finances were tough we all have had dreams of wanting everything, building lists of everything you could wish for. but when you reach a point of being able to afford things without concern or worrying if it will take money away from other needs is a new feeling, you suddenly realise your wish list changes

its no longer a feeling of needing things to feel happy, but already happy so not needing things
you realise you do not need other peoples affections/compliments of them thinking you are financially stable to feel fulfilled. instead you feel fulfilled no matter what others think, you stop trying to impress others. you stop thinking you need the latest thing to feel fulfilled

just being financially independent to have no obligations is a target all should try to reach. and yes normal fiat employment wont really help you reach that unless you get paid a high salary.. but investing to allow for better than promotion % increases will

I don't think that you need to leave to leave your business or sell your investment because you want to achieve F.I.R.E. There are things that should be put in place before you can reason F.I.R.E, if not you will suffer in the long run. Quitting of job is acceptable and that is if you have a source of income which with your presence or not it is running.

You can have a business and make it big, put someone to manage it and report to you. You can do that once in a while. Having a house and enough Bitcoin that you have stashed up in your portfolio before that time. Your business can take care of your basic needs, you already have a house and once in a while you can take very little profit from your bitcoin if needed. With F.I, you can achieve F.I.R.E but you must start from somewhere and work towards it early.

I don’t think you understood my post or never cared to read it.

Of couse you don’t need to sell your business or quit your job to achieve the status.

You achieve the status first and then you quit.

But,

You quit the job or the business, because you never liked it. As I explained in my post, You were in that business and busting your ass to make money day after day and when you finally hit a certain amount, then you can quit and do some other business which you like more.

The original job/business was making you lots of money, but it was also wrecking your body and soul.

The next job/business might generate less income but that’s not the point.

You don’t depend on that income anymore. Your passive income is making more money than you’ll ever need. You work to have fun from now on. You don’t care about its pay.

That’s what I meant.

To give you an idea, it's not that much compared to all of you in here but I can say that hopefully when BTC hits the ceiling, I can say that I can live with my life with less pressure. And I agree that no offense to those that have invested to themselves and got the skills and job that they have dreamt of but someone who DCAed Bitcoin during the early days might be ahead of time than them in terms of portfolio and finance matters. On the other hand, someone who had BTC and kept it until now and could live comfortably could do what they did and improve their skills and follow the path of passion they want to be in. That only means patience has always been paying off.

I agree and there's this one guy that admires that after selling their house, they can buy it back now with a lesser quantity of Bitcoin while keeping a lot of it in their family's stash. I'm talking about Didi Taihuttu's notable decision to sell their house for Bitcoin way back 2017.

You mean that we are lovey dovey.

Sure franky1 can test the patience of the most godly of folks, not that I am claiming to be godly.. that's Franky's role (work if you must).


I think that with FI you are still largely able to do mostly what you want.. so it is quite important to not be having the FI hanging over your head in the event that you really were not within such a status and you were lying to yourself about being within such status of FI...

The RE seems less consequential, as you mentioned, especially if you truly do have your shit together in regards to the FI, then the RE is 100% (or pretty damned close) to optional.  There surely are guys who lie to themselves in regards to claiming FI when it may well not be as true as they are believing it to be.

I suppose we really could end up arguing about what constitutes substantial and meaningful FI too..


I doubt any of this is as dramatic as you are making it out to be.


I did not come to any conclusion, except sure I was probably inclined towards calling it a voluntary activity rather than work, even though there were obligations involved too.. and I suppose that I was largely describing that activity as an example in which a person might end up getting paid pretty sizable amounts for his activities and also getting paid more than once for doing the same thing.


sure.  Further examples of different kinds of activities that show certain kinds of obligations that might come from owning things, choosing to buy more things or even entering into relations in which a retired person might have to oversee someone else doing work.. which is a kind of work to oversee the other person, especially if it is a BIG project that is chosen to be done.and even the project might end up bringing in money..as I mentioned in some of my earlier examples..


We seem to share some ideas and differ in some of our perspective, to the extent that any of it matters, which you seem to think the RE part matters, and I don't attach so much specificity to what counts or does not count, even though I provided some examples in which you could potentially choose for yourself in regards if they constitute work or not.. and some of my examples seem to contradict some of your prior assertions regarding what might be considered work or not work.


Perhaps what it is remains less important than you are seeming to want to outline it to be within your parameters of seeming to want to ongoingly battle about it.. and perhaps we might even end up agreeing that the FI portion is much more important than the RE portion.. even though achieving the FI portion may well have a lot of significance for some one to choose to partially or even completely discontinue earlier activities that had been sources of his income to pay his monthly bills through such income that he is giving up and presumptively converting over to other forums of income.. such as using various aspects of his retirement funds.. whether he might have a pension might be another source of income that might be part of an immediate formula, or maybe he starts to draw a pension at a later date, if that might be one of his income sources.


Sounds like exaggeration to me.. especially since conditions likely vary in terms of when guys might discontinue work and even there is not a lot of commonality in terms of folks around the world either establishing investment accounts or knowing how to preserve them, manage them or to  draw from them, in the event that those billions of people have some commonalities in their knowledge about how to retire early or how to get to a status of financial independence, which also seems to be a prerequisite to being able to discontinue paid work perhaps in a way that is earlier than otherwise expected.


I doubt it is productive for you to be going on and on about the various ways that I supposedly failed.


I doubt any of this is even relevant.


I thought that you already put me in the idiot group, so why are you continuing to discuss these matters?


One thing is that bitcoin is designed to go up forever, so if you think that if bitcoin goes to a certain price, then you are selling it, that seems to be problematic from my point of view.


I think that there are trade offs, and it is not always clear whether you might invest in yourself and develop skills, and sure it could have been better use of your money to just buy bitcoin, yet sometimes young people have little to no money, so they may well be spending a lot of time learning, but not engaging in employment, so they are not earning money during time that they are studying, yet they may well be expecting that at the end of their studies they may well end up getting a job that pays them way more and also gives them way more options at various points down the road.  It can be difficult to know which path forward is better, and surely there are some job opportunties that may well ONLY come from someone with a degree or maybe someone who met person with connections while they were a university student.  I believe that I personally was able to get some opportunities that were largely based on my college education and various kinds of work that I did in preparation for college that looked good on my resume and did not lock me into lower end kinds of jobs that may well would have otherwise been within my options had I not pursued the college path.. and surely I think that the higher paying jobs made up for the time that I was not paid.. ... yet the question is not always obvious since it is difficult to figure out what the other path would have had been, since college for me did involve entering into quite a bit of debt, too... it took a while to pay back the debt, but the level of pay still seemed to have had made up for the extra expenses.  it is not easy for any of us to answer for anyone else and it is not even  easy to know our own various trade-offs that we might not completely know after we had chosen to take one path instead of another path.


Selling your house is one thing, and choosing to not even buy a house (defer the purchase) is another thing.  I remember times in which folks were really excited about selling their bitcoin and getting into real estate, which I know is an ongoing lingering dilemma for some folks.

another bit of advice for those pre fire but wanting to know what to expect..
(like me giving advice to my earlier self)

you will find one of the triggers of a change of mindset from blowing your load/burning money/being extravagant,, to change to refining your financial decisions to think about whats really important is:

when i sold one of my stashes of coin in 2013-14, a few cycles later looking back in hindsight i found me making the lightbulb moment realisation of "if i didnt sell XXbtc back then i would have had $£XXmillion extra now, and the xxbtc i wasted then are not worth even 0.1% of $£xxm now

this will make you change your financial plans and spending habits of making wiser decisions of whats most important to buy now, rather than delay for later

using the useless idiot of the topics example..
imagine him selling 0.01btc today for $950 to buy a couple hours of getting high with some junkies he knows
to him he thinks its a good night...

but later years when bitcoin is $1m/btc he will be thinking that the one nights wasted experience could have been saved and be used now for a $10k rager party that lasts a week or X months of living expenses in some foreign country whereby he could feel like a king due to the different cost of living of some developing country

this is where people start to wise up and make better decisions of their spending plans about what experiences mean more.. blow it now for a couple hours of getting high to impress a couple junkies.. or plan it to have a week of experiences with a better class of people or many months experiencing a totally different culture of population

i think even this topics useful idiot will agree if he had the choice of a few hours of getting high or a few months of life changing experience, he might choose the latter

There may be regrets of spending too many bitcoin too soon, yet if you have more than enough bitcoin, you can budget how many bitcoin you are able to spend without ever running out.  That is one of the great things about bitcoin, at least historically bitcoin has appreciated greater than other assets, so it has had the potential of allowing you to spend more and still be better off as compared to having your money in traditional investments where your withdrawal rate may well be around 4%, yet in bitcoin you might be able to have up to a 10% withdrawal rate and still do better.

So for example, maybe the first few years on FIRE (or fuck you status), you might choose to restrict yourself to spending 4% of your bitcoin stash per year,, and so perhaps you have reached around $1 million in bitcoin in 2017, which would be around 300 BTC, and so you make the mistake of using BTC's spot price to measure going on fuck you status (or going into FIRE), yet you are concerned about whether it is going to be good for so you plan to withdraw $3,333 per month.   So you start out with those 300 BTC, and withdrawing at 4%, and still that withdrawal rate would have ONLY caused you to withdraw around 77.5 BTC up until now, which still leaves you with 222.5 BTC (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX1949Tc/EtJT+iCjmWfchLc1bEkBMFipCQ2YOp5/5FBVjk9knBwDKYgtx6XVQEYuk/mwgfk2ttJzCA==), so surely somewhere along the way that you could have lived at some higher levels of spending, and even if you had doubled your BTC withdrawal rate to 8% per year, you would have had still ended up with still having 165 BTC right now, so showing that you would have had sent just under half of your stash right around 135 BTC (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX18gcccS6BpVyJ0kUuoiGkgv0pwHhHIW/4b0NsFb7c+q1fTOPDfBoXqOjuQgD11vxLW2WGg9AMuPTA==), and surely you can play around with the numbers yourself in terms of seeing how much you are able to spend with BTC, and especially if you reach a certain high enough BTC stash size.   I have my doubts about needs to have regrets about having had bought hookers, lambos and blow at earlier dates as long as the quantity of BTC being spent was within the already determined to be sustainable budget.

That’s a good goal, congrats but I believe the FIRE stuff was originally about collecting dividend stocks which produce a somewhat reliable cash income.

Of course you can invest in coffee beans and still become FIRE if it works for you.

But having to sell your bitcoins might not be the best idea whether you become FIRE or not. Or maybe, you want to invest only in btc and later you want to allocate some of your btc to the dividend stocks when your btc stash hits a certain amount against the USD but then you won’t have any experience in the stock market when that time comes and you will look like a fish out of the ocean which means you’ll make mistakes and lose money.

Or you might try to become a real estate king like Donald after you get rich from btc. It will also generate good cash flow but the bad part is, it is a business which you’ll have to manage. Talk to the tenants, fix the properties etc… Dividend stocks bring much less headache. What could go wrong with KO for example unless they make everyone cancer or diabetic and guess what they actually do and nobody cares 8) (poor J&J and 3M had to go through that lawsuit nightmare and they still operate!)

The point is, I am not sure if depending on only btc is a good idea. You might also want to plant seeds in other farms while it is early. You don’t wanna be late there as much as you don’t wanna be late at bitcoin. Getting rich is easier than most people think. Managing and keeping your riches is a way difficult task.

Also understanding the legacy markets (stock and real estate) gives you a much better understanding of finance than investing only in bitcoin.

Many people who got rich from bitcoin were already nearly rich because they were already invested in stocks. Don’t miss that point. If you become successful at the stock market, you will kill it at bitcoin markets. Ez pz.

Let's say that a guy had accumulated bitcoin until March 2020, and he got up to 10 BTC, yet then he got frustrated with bitcoin, so he decided to start to cash out 4% of his bitcoin per year, and so if he had followed such a cashing out, he would have had cashed out right about 1.76 BTC over the past nearly 5 years, and he would still have 8.24 BTC (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX18HUHQOu+iuV65qc6o/YcOv+Iawka7vHTSuTNA0gTw9Sd9QKHCWHgtH), and so maybe at this point he could stick with a 4% cash out rate, or maybe he could move up to a 10% cash out rate?  I  think that either one is sustainable, yet the lower cash out rate will certainly allow the BTC stash to grow in dollars value way faster than a higher cash out rate, including a cash out rate as high as 10% per year, but surely a guy with ONLY 8.24 BTC might still choose a more conservative withdrawal rate, even though he surely would have had been able to allow his BTC stash to grow over the past 5-ish years with ONLY a 4% withdrawal rate.

That worked like that till now doesn’t mean it will work just the same in the future. Also you are putting far too much trust in one asset I don’t care if it is gold, bitcoin, adamantine or unobtainium. It is still one asset.

Can bitcoin grow the same rate in the future as it did in the past? Sure it can but is it wise to make a bet on only one asset? If you trust only bitcoin then good or bad whatever happens to Bitcoin directly affects you and your future plans. 100%.

But when you have a diversified portfolio of all good assets (btc, gold, dividend producing stocks making profits, growth stocks, high yield bonds) which you pick personally, then you will distribute the total risk to your assets but the upside potential will be more or less the same.

In the end you will end up having a financial fortress which will survive any doomsday scenario.

I made that mistake going all in on asset. Never again. I could have won big but it is not worth having that anxiety. Anxiety makes you panic and panic makes you stupid. Going all in is a no no.

I have a diversified portfolio now which makes bucks even while I am sleeping. I have different assets all around the world. Every tiny share and sat I got is busting his ass to make money for me and I sleep much, much better. Not a care in the world.

That's right. I've been there too and couldn't get out when the price dropped hard the only choice was to wait for the price to come back and the most painful thing is having to find other funds to cover urgent needs.

Yes. why when we see someone who is confident in their activities their money is always on standby, when they need it can be disbursed.

we talked about it a lot on the Italian board of the FIRE movement, which is very interesting
FIRE is not a fixed pattern but more a way of thinking and making choices

There is no FIRE scheme or project that is the same for everyone, everyone has their own and is personalized for their needs
What's good for you, may not be good for me

I think what I had been attempting to describe in my various responses regarding the inclusion of bitcoin in any investment portfolio and even my various threads on the topic attempts to be a reasonable approach to bitcoin... and sure, guys don't necessarily need to agree with me or even relate to the kinds of balances that I am striving to achieve, and I have also been accused of overly complicating matters when I tend to ongoingly describe a need to both account for the 200-WMA value of your bitcoin and the spot price, and so it can be a bit confusing for folks to deal with these kinds of juxtapositionings of bitcoin valuations and also to attempt to balance those kinds of considerations with other things that guys might have going on in their investment portfolio that might also need to be considered.

Of course, we cannot turn back the clock, and we might not even want to start to withdraw from our bitcoin holdings until it gets to a certain size.  

Surely, when you look at the link that I provided in my earlier post regarding the BTC spot price versus the 200-WMA value of the 10 BTC on March 12, 2020, you will see that March 2020 may well might not have had been a good time to start to cash out on the BTC, even though I was largely using that as an example based on extremes in BTC price movements that happened at and around that time... So surely even cashing out at a conservative 4% per annum rate or otherwise might not have been the greatest idea to start in and around March 2020, yet surely I am continuing to make the argument that any withdrawal rate between 4% and 10% has historically been sustainable in bitcoin even if the starting dates might have had been during some kind of a BTC price spike to either the upside or to the downside, and my argument continues to be that even withdrawing between 4% to 10% per year is likely to continue to be sustainable, especially if such withdrawal rate is tempered based on accounting for BTC prices in relation to the 200-WMA and if the withdrawals might be spread out, since surely it would not be a great idea to jump into rash considerations of cashing out a bunch of BTC at the bottom, just like it would not tend to be a good idea to engage in rash decisions to buy a lot of BTC as the BTC price seems to be spiking (I have made that mistake on more than one occasion), and therefore I have outlined some of my own ideas around sustainable withdrawal rates to involve reducing the withdrawal rate when the BTC spot price is less than 25% higher than the 200-WMA... which is also described at the explanatory bottom of the bitcoindata.sience/withdrawal-strategy page. (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX18HUHQOu+iuV65qc6o/YcOv+Iawka7vHTSuTNA0gTw9Sd9QKHCWHgtH)

So, of course, as you rightfully point out so many of us realize that past performance of any asset (whether bitcoin or otherwise) does not guarantee future results, yet I still think that if we are calculating what to do and how to manage our BTC based on the 200-WMA, then we are taking a way more conservative approach to managing our BTC as compared to if we were making our decisions based on the whims of BTC's spot price that have historically been pretty damned big and there is no reason to really speculate that such BTC spot price whims are not going to continue into the future.

Sure, regarding ONLY having one asset, that could be problematic, even if we are still imply that the one asset would still be balanced with managing fiat reserves (whether the dollar or other fiats that might be considered local currency kinds of balancing of cashflows and cash reserve attempts).  I am not even going to entertain any nonsense that there are practicalities in regards to fucking around with shitcoins, except maybe for folks who cannot resist gambling, then maybe they could play around with up to 10% the size of their bitcoin holdings into various shitcoins and/or trading an/or gambling.  Another problem with considering shitcoins as diversification is that they have been and will likely quite greatly continue to be correlated with bitcoin's price performance, so adding shitcoins to your investment portfolio is largely just adding an additional layer of risk, when we already likely should realize that bitcoin is already a risky asset, so why add more risk that is just correlated in the same direction, except for limiting it to no greater than 10% of the bitcoin value, for those guys who cannot resist gambling (and/or experimenting and imagining that they are learning from it).

So usually if we are referring to practical diversification, then we would be considering across other asset classes that are not supposed to be correlated, even though many of us realize that so many asset classes are perverted through their overly correlation with various debt systems, yet still we could continue to consider other potentially non-correlated or less correlated asset categories as property, stocks, bonds, commodities, cash/cash equivalents (hopefully not shitcoins) and perhaps some business kinds of ventures.

I am not against allocating beyond bitcoin and cash.. especially as a person's investment portfolio grows, and perhaps once the bitcoin and cash components might start to get to more than a year or so of annual income/expenses, then there could be some desires to have some other exposures that may well still be just various ways to buttress the cash component so that it is earning yield rather than ongoingly debasing.. so the general idea is that bare minimum of 3 months back up cash/liquid funds in a kind of emergency fund, and then other kinds of back up funds can be in cash or something that might be relatively liquid which sometimes might be referred to reserves and float and as those funds get bigger, presumptively along with the growth of a person's bitcoin stash, then there may well be desires to have  some of those back up funds earning, so putting into the categories of other assets as I described, yet it may not be urgent to diversify, yet over the years maybe one or two more back up assets could be added whether properties (not tending to be very liquid) or stocks or something, and surely some of these choices might be individualistic.

So then in regards to withdrawing from the bitcoin, sure you could start early.. such as the starting from march 2020 when the 10 BTC are ONLY worth around $55k-ish... but it may well be better to let them grow for a while and continue to add to them, and if your cashflow is totally fucked up or if you feel that you had overly allocated to the BTC, then either you just stop buying it or maybe you start withdrawing at a bit of a faster rate (such as going as high as 10% annually) until you start to feel better about your balance.. .. and yeah of course, these can be tough decisions, and as you suggest, we cannot go back in time, we can ONLY attempt to figure out a prudent and practical strategy from now hence forth and perhaps try to learn from historical performance and/or identifying and accepting the ongoing strength of BTC fundamentals..even if the upside potential might not be as great, bitcoin's investment thesis remains strong today and perhaps even stronger than it was 5-10 years ago... and perhaps even stronger in the past year or two based on more and  more entrants and interest from governments, institutions and traditional (status quo) rich people.


Sure bitcoin has appreciated in value (price) quite a bit in the past 5-10 years, so we can see that it would have had been good to invest in bitcoin historically, yet I still doubt that we would be disadvantaged by investing into bitcoin today, especially since we cannot turn back the clock.  We have to figure out what to do from today, and sure we can account for our various personal circumstances (including the 9 I mention (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719590#msg58719590)) that will also account for how many BTC we have so far accumulated, and then also to figure out if we have enough or more than enough, and if we don't have enough, it seems that we should keep building the bitcoin, and bitcoin likely remains amongst the best (if not the best) of investment assets that is currently widely available across the whole world, yet it still likely ONLY has about 1% of the world's population invested into it... and yeah, maybe we remain pessimistic about bitcoin's upward potential as compared with other places that we might put our value, so then those are questions about position size rather than questions about whether to get in or not.

Prior to March 2020, I used to recommend for beginners into bitcoin to make an initial allocation into bitcoin between 1% and 10%, and after March 2020, I started to recommend an initial allocation into bitcoin between 5% and 25%, and yeah of course, the more than guys study into bitcoin they can figure out whether they want to be more whimpy in regards to their bitcoin allocation level or if they might want to error on the side of being more aggressive, and surely my own recommendations are merely attempts to share some of my own ideas, and guys ultimately have to figure out these matters for themselves, including tailoring their level of aggressiveness to their own circumstances - including that some guys may well want to go outside of my own recommended parameters based on their own assessments of the matter or even their own assessments of their own particular circumstances that they believe justifies some other kind of a target.  

I am surely not claiming  to know the answer in regards to what some other guy should do, even though sometimes I still might feel that I have enough information to make some general suggestions, and some of the general suggestions that I ongoingly tend to make is to proclaim that an overwhelming majority of normies are tending to be underallocated to bitcoin, since we have a whole world of low coiners and no coiners, so I think that it is ongoingly appropriate for me to continue to be presuming that an overwhelming number of normies continue to be underallocated to bitcoin.. absent some evidence to the contrary.  Of course, I would not proclaim that psycho Michael Saylor to even be close to the category of underallocated to bitcoin, even though he ongoingly proclaims that he does not have enough.. hahahahaha.. what I psycho, but still ongoingly he makes a lot of really good points in regards to recognizing and appreciating bitcoin as the most pristine of assets currently available, and they are available to him and/or anyone else who is willing to spend time, energy and/or financial resources to gobble them up (and to put them into self-custody - even though Saylor's own (including MSTR's) BTC custody arrangements might not be as good as they could be or should be).


I don't have a problem with the idea of diversification, including the categories you describe, yet you still personally have to figure out how much of a priority are you going to give to bitcoin, and also potentially question the extent to which you are diluting your bitcoin investment based on your voluntary decision to invest into various inferior assets.  Yeah, of course, we don't have to agree regarding our allocation choices, and personally, since about 2017-ish, I had come around to my own adjustment in thinking to largely just continue to let my bitcoin investment ride rather than engaging in practices of reallocating into inferior assets, even though for sure we had seen a lot of volatility from bitcoin since we can look at the charts and we can see that bitcoin had a stupendous uptrend from late 2015 to late 2017 in which it largely went up 78x from $250 ish to $19,666, but then it ended up correcting back down in the ballpark of 84%-ish to $3,124-ish.  Even in that 2017 process of going up and coming back down, I had already decided (I think it was sometime in late-ish 2017) that I was just going to ride out whatever ended up happening, including whatever correction might end up coming after the blow off top, so I already decided that I was not going to try to trade the waves.. that were even somewhat anticipated prior to their happening, even though none of us can really know specifics in regards to when the top is in, until perhaps after several months when it starts to become more clear that the top had already happened.

My point is that any of us can attempt to structure our own finances and our psychology that we are willing to ride the waves including figuring if we might have high allocations in something like bitcoin, we still could decide to just let it ride, even if we expect it to continue to be greatly volatile and sometimes even having extremely great downward corrections that might well even be manipulations in which we cannot tell how far the downity is going to end up.  I am not going to claim it is easy to go through the down periods, and I am not even going to claim that there aren't frustrations when the price seems to fail/refuse to go back up for way longer than seems reasonable... but at the same time, it still continues to seem that bitcoin remains amongst the best (if not the best) of assets, and the mere fact that there is an ongoing underlying war in the background should not necessarily dissuade us, even if the underlying war might contribute to our position size choices, and surely we are not all going to decide the same, since we surely have to also account for our own particulars in regards to both how much to allocate and then how to manage our BTC once in and if we are continue to consider ourselves in a BTC accumulation stage or if we might consider that we had advanced to a maintenance stage or a liquidation stage or some combination of those, since sometimes we might float a little between those stages especially if we are building our BTC holdings and also other aspects of our overall investment portfolio yet at the same time, it might not be exactly clear if we have enough yet or not or if we just have to continue to allow the time to play out and maybe not take any drastic moves, unless the drastic moves might be justified based on new developments and/or reasonable changes in our perspective.


There are a variety of ways to hedge your various investments, yet at the same time, guys will likely engage in different tactics while they are building their investment portfolio as compared to if they transition to either a maintenance stage or a liquidation stage.  Surely any of us should want to establish an investment portfolio that holds its value, but also that it appreciates enough so that we can start to withdraw from it or live off of it, and probably we also would want to make sure that our investment portfolio would also keep up with the debasement of fiat currencies (whether our own fiat currency or various fiat currencies overall).


Of course,  it is hard to argue in regards to experiences that are based on actual happenings, even though surely arguments could be made in regards to lessons that might be learned or even paths forward, yet at the same time, each person is responsible for figuring out their own allocations, whether they consider themselves in the building stage including hopefully building their various assets within their investment portfolio or if they might consider themselves to be transitioning in to some kind of a maintenance stage or liquidation stage.  Surely when a person is more earlier on in his investment building, he may well just start out with one asset, such as bitcoin and cash, and then little by little he might end up adding other categories of assets and figuring out how much to allocate to them.. and surely there are guys that get their balances wrong, even though again it is both their decision to make and also they are going to be responsible for any consequences of their decision, including that no one is likely to bail them out (from the internet) if they end up screwing up in terms of their own allocation choices (and/or their from time  to time reallocation, if they end up engaging in reallocation practices from time to time).

Probably, it is also good to keep in mind that there could be situations in which we continue to make similar kinds of mistakes or on the other hand that we might overly compensate for one of our past mistakes and then end up getting a bit of a wrong lesson from our prior mistake(s).  I doubt that I really need to flesh out this part of my observation, since I had largely already asserted my own assessment that bitcoin is and has been amongst the best, if not the best, of investments available to all people, so it could be a bit of a problem to either underallocate to it or to overly allocate to inferior assets (and/or currencies).. but yeah, sure in the end, each of us has to figure out these kinds of balances for ourselves and continue to consider if their might be any tweakings that from time to time that we might need to make in our approach... and I am not even proclaiming to be holier than art thou, since from time to time, I also have to make some adjustments and even I sometimes will consider that I might be wrong in some of my allocations, and I might have to consider if there might be some better balance that I might need to attempt to strike.. so yeah, there can be questions about whether to adjust and if so the extent to adjust and also questions regarding when or if there might be alternatives to the adjustment(s) that could end up achieving similar balances (perhaps with less need for turmoil, to the extent that some action could cause tax consequences or even overly complicate matters).


That's good.  I still think that there can be some differing considerations regarding if the assets are still being built up and when a guy might start to choose to live off of his investments, if he might consider that he is approaching such stage of his investment.  Sure, if he is still working, he might not need to go from his building stage and straight into a stage of withdrawing from his investment, and he also could transition from full time work to part time work and sure, some guys say that they don't mind working all of their lives, yet I would think that part of the theme of this thread is to talk about the extent to which we might consider that we are engaged in work based on merely activity preferences rather than feeling that we have to work to support our lifestyle, so in some sense, you already mentioned that there could be stages in which we may well consider that we are pretty much able to completely live off of the financial portfolio that we had built without having to engage in other kinds of work - beyond perhaps just some managerial kinds of activities that we might have to continue to do in regards to spending from our investment portfolio and/or maybe accounting  for our moving around funds from time to time.


Sure, there is a bit of a psychological component, yet there are also some hard facts that relate to both how much value a guy has accumulated, the various ways that the value is allocated and various kinds of cashflow and portfolio management practices that might be different in regards to the building stage as compared to getting to a status that the guy is actually going to start to live off of the funds, either in full or partially.

I doubt that mentality is going to help very much for guys who either had not established enough funds into their investment portfolio or if their cashflow and/or their portfolio management practices are not in a decently solid status allocations and/or plans to withdraw if that is their current or future status.

a mistake the useful idiot has made a few times is his idea of standard 4% drawdown via a monthly reverse DCA style of 0.33% without using a plan to sell on the high and reinvest on the low to maximise profits and keep accumulating coin and plan spending

for instance
taking 4% out each year is what most people believe is the equivalent of 1/20th of capital to have a 20 year retirement of declining capital assets (in traditional finance)
this is standard 20 year expectation from 65 retirement age to 85 life expectancy

so he is using tradefi's 4% notion of a 20 year retirement of diminishing assets
(not good notion for people to retire earlier meaning needing alot more years worth of longevity of capital)

also drawing down in reverse monthly DCA means the $ per month will be extremely variable and doesnt help plan for future months lifestyle spending desires

for instance a 4%/y drawdown on 300btc is 12btc/y. and from jan 2018 would be 1btc a month
in january 2018 he would have ~$10k that month but in december 2018 it would only be ~$3k

and due to his reverse month DCA drawdown he wont know he is only going to get to spend $3k in december when he is planning things in the earlier months

so stupidly by him doing reverse DCA to retire.. he is not profiting at the best times to get the best out of the deals
..

my style is to wait for the ATH of each cycle and take out 20%
this represents 4x 4% to cover 4 years, and 1x 4% to use to buy in at the latter correction to accumulate again and reduce how much coin is lost per cycle..

so the 20% of hoard is sold at the ATH season for max fiat
meaning the yearly and monthly budget spend is for the 16%... and keep the 4% extra aside for buying back in at the correction

lets use the 2017 ATH as a example seeing as the useless idiot done this too
for instance 300btc turns into 240btc still locked in btc... and 60btc(20%) sold..at the $20k ATH peak of late 2017
60btc at near $20k is upto $1.2m with a split to spend $900k(the 16%) over 4 years and put aside $300k(4%) to rebuy at correction

so the 2019 low of ~$3k/btc adds 100btc back into the pot ($300k / $3k=100btc)
and with the $900k over 4 years allows a averaged allowance spend of $18.75k a month

which is a much better deal over all than the useful idiots reverse DCA game

..
taking the 2025 ATH seasons event as a trigger withdrawal event.
a plan of reasonable expectation of ATH of $350k(date to cash out target)
so the 300btc with a 20% withdrawal is 60btc which is $21m
allowing for the 4 year spending of $4.2m per year($350k a month) and a put aside $4.2m to re invest in the 2026-27 correction
the reasonable expectation of correction would be $70k

the reason i say the 2026-27 low correction would be $70k is because:
the 2020-24 correction low is similar to the 2017 high
the 2016-20 correction low is similar to the 2013 high
so the 2024-28 correction low could be similar to the 2021 high

ofcourse my example is not an exact prediction of returns and not a guarantee, but you can atleast see how its still better off even with lower returns via not getting the exact numbers right, just by planning to sell high buy low logic to keep the funds flowing and have plans set for future

I'll take some chunks but there is no point of having an all-out exit point at that time. I'll use that money to generate some other avenues for making more money too so that I won't have to sell the remaining I have.

That makes sense, I agree that there are some trade-offs and decisions where we're in a situation that we either choose to get stuck in the midst of it or choose the traditional belief that we should also go with or choose to be different and take some risks. As for your case and the most of us here, we did chose the latter and the trade did well for us, ofcourse to the ones that have held Bitcoin even until now. I think it's harder in the past years to invest and sacrifice some money just for BTC because there were less recognition, more FUD, more scary sentiments and thoughts from the finance sector but those who took the risk, here we go, we're on the greener pasture.

Even until now, if you'd ask some holders, they'd totally answer to buy a house after selling BTC. So, I think it always ticks on everyone's box about having real estate and many are willing to sell their BTCs at the right price for it.

That's part of my plan and that's why even though it doesn't sound like a good plan to sell some at the right time, I'm pretty sure that to expand in other ventures, assets and businesses is where that huge part of sold BTCs will be going. I'm not entirely going to sell the most from the little that I have but I'll keep the remaining ones and hopefully earning from dividends, rents or any other passive incomes will give better cashflow so that I won't have to sell the remaining that I have. Thus, it will help me to buy back and DCA. Other thing that sounds good is with REITs, no need to manage the tenants, no renovations needed just pure dividends but also depending on the market and the REIT that will be chosen. People think that these replies are wall of texts, if they get some time in reading what you folks are saying, they're having a free webinar and learns a lot within few minutes of reading.

Any reinvestment strategy is an optional angle, and is not a necessary component, even if reinvesting could be a way of attempting to deal with volatility, if volatility might be a factor that is even needed to be accounted for in the withdrawal plan.. again optional to consider and/or to incorporate.


You are going into a lot of details about a portion that is optional, and most likely is not even necessary if there is already a large enough cushion in the size of the investment portfolio.

Surely, if someone is barely making it into fuck you status (or FIRE) status, then he might need to employ more complications to make their finances work as compared to someone who may well even be way beyond entry level fuck you and might even start out with double or some other amounts quite beyond what they consider to be their entry level numbers.


Sure.  You could frontload some of your withdrawal during periods that the BTC price is up.  The instructions of the tool and at the bottom of the page (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy) that I had been mentioning has some provisions for including higher levels of withdrawal on the way up and lower levels of withdrawal on the way down.. yet even with flat withdrawals on something like a monthly basis, 4% annual will still end up working out even through ups and downs at least how the historical back testing shows. 

Yes... it is already known that future results is not guaranteed based on history, which is part of the justification attempting adjustments, especially if there is less of a cushion in the size of the BTC stash.. ..so surely guys should be able to figure out their various balances, or maybe they need to hire a consultant or send a PM to Franky1 so that you can help them out with the details.


Sure.. trying to time is optional and not necessary, and surely many of us likely realize that it is much easier to time when we are looking retrospectively, so there can be some disadvantages to be fucking around too much with attempts at timing.. but surely if we are seeing that we are experiencing BTC spot prices that are 5x to 15x higher than the 200-WMA, then surely our risks may well be lessened to cash out some extra BTC during those periods, even though we still run the risk that the BTC price might continue to go up or maybe that we end up cashing out too many BTC too soon...


If we are talking about entry level fuck you status, we may well be looking at way smaller numbers, such as a guy who currently has around 21 BTC.. and sure if he has 35 BTC, then he has around 14 extra BTC, so he could choose to cash out some of the extra BTC within the parameters of a lower level formula such as 4% or he might choose a higher formula or he may even withdraw some advance months within the parameters outlined by the tool or he might calculate his own parameters based on his own formulas.

I personally would not be trying to predict lows or highs, even though surely actions could be taken based on highs in order to attempt to prepare for lows, whether buying back is part of the forumal that is chosen or not.


I am glad that you got all of these price moves figured out...and sure nothing wrong with having some base case thesis but it also seems good to have some flexibility in regards to how you might want to get through such volatility levels, even  if they might play out differently from expectations.

The way any guys plays these kinds of price expectations would likely be different if he considers himself to have had already reached fuck you status or if he is multiples above it or if he is still building his way up to such status.  I am not that BIG of a fan in regards to trying to trade BTC, even though I have a sustainable withdrawal theory thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475347.msg63213914#msg63213914) in which I go into various approaches to price-based and time-based strategies in regards to dealing with and managing BTC holdings, and my proposed withdrawal strategies tend to presume already reaching and/or exceeding BTC accumulation goals, and I also don't presume any abilities to buy back sold BTC, even though many of us can also recognize and appreciate that the BTC price does tend to move in both directions... but I still try not to presume that buying back will take place, so in that regard selling of BTC is largely based on having had already reached overaccumulation status rather than giving any shits about having enough BTC.


Personally, I am not too excited about trading strategies when it comes to BTC portfolio management, but yeah sure, try whatever you like including trading like Franky1 suggests, and hopefully you don't end up selling too much too soon or engaging in other tactics that otherwise cause you to end up without enough BTC.


Of course, anyone accumulating bitcoin for years may well have reached sufficiency or greater than sufficiency levels of BTC accumulation, so I personally believe that guys need to keep accumulating BTC until they reach such status of sufficient or overaccumulation of BTC.

It is also my perspective that most newbies are going to have difficulties reaching overaccumulation status in just one cycle or even two cycles unless they have abilities to frontload their BTC investment, and so in that regard, many of us know that it tends to take a decently long time to build up an investment portfolio, and surely some folks are in a better position to front load their BTc investment than others, but if we are merely new to investing, then we are largely depending on spending within our discretionary income which is not always a lot of money to be able to put into bitcoin, which is part of the reason it takes time to build up, and if we have been building up we have advantages over guys who are just getting started in the past year or two, but still no one can turn back the clock and there are going to continue to be people who are just coming to bitcoin and they are likely going to need to get started right away from where we are at rather than employing some kind of a waiting strategy that might not end up working out if the BTC price does not go down to the levels of their wishes.


Yep.  They may or may not end up having regrets about how they choose their allocations in regards to bitcoin versus real estate or even bitcoin versus any other asset that they might be comparing.

Even in Bitcoin? I have this belief that going all-in in Bitcoin is totally fine but a time will come that I'll have to diversify as well but not too much.

This is great that you're already on this kind of life. I wanna be on this kind of state in my life soon.

You're having cash flow while sleeping so, from rent, dividends, and other passive income comes from diversified portfolio. And I guess even staking coins and interest accounts?

People have to be careful if overly allocate into any one asset, especially any asset that is volatile in relation to the currency in which they may well need to pay bills.  I don't really believe that it is very practical in regards to some guys who say they had gone 100% bitcoin or some variation like that, and they might even get paid in bitcoin, so they just convert to fiat to pay bills and things like that, as the bills come in.

Usually, we are at least going to need to find some kind of a minimum balance in regards to how much value that we might keep in fiat and how much in bitcoin, and even if we might have several hundred bitcoin, it may also be valuable to either keep a couple years in cash or at least 3-6 months in cash and then other various forms of places that are able to offset bitcoin's volatility, whether they are related to cash (and maybe liquid) or if they aren't as liquid then that would be a factor to consider as well in regards to how long it might take to cash out of them if necessary. 

I understand that guys may also want some assets that might earn them income or even to be able to use their assets for collateral and to get cash in those kinds of ways, and I am surely not opposed to any of those practices, even though there are likely better and worse ways of employing capital in those kinds of ways... which can end up taking us all over the place, and so my own personal preferences continue to be mostly emphasizing discussion on bitcoin and cash ways of balancing investment portfolios, especially since we are in a bitcoin forum, even though I understand some threads (including potentially this one) may well be open to bringing in some discussion of other areas that guys might choose to hold some of their value or that they deem it helpful to have some of their value in some other assets besides bitcoin and cash.

more than psychological, I would say that they are basic rules to better manage income and optimize expenses, which you can use even if you don't do a FIRE
very simple rules like

- create expense categories
- set a budget for each category
- monitor all expenses with a specific program, knowing how much you spend you can act and understand where to fix and optimize
- tries to increase cashflow by introducing various revenue or business units
- try to plan your savings
- try to postpone expenses as much as possible, hoping to optimize them, don't buy 1 glass today, postpone and buy a pack of 6 in the future when there are discounts, if you can obviously

Yes even in bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not the only asset in the world, it is nothing special. It is just another asset in the world of finance. It might perform well or not just like any other asset in my portfolio and I do take profits when it starts to take over my portfolio. That’s called “having a permanent portfolio”. (Basically I rebalance the portfolio by selling some of the outperforming assets, and add juice to the underperforming ones that’s if I still believe they carry a upwards potential) That way you never run out of either your shares/sats or USD.

I am mostly collecting dividends and bond coupons at the moment. Not particularly interested in real estate for now but I am studying it.

Going all in on btc has another big risk:

You miss your chance to buy lots of other assets for cheap and they go cheap all the time. Market anomalies always happen in the stock market.

This has happened to me too, invested so well, for years, got rid of all my debts, and collected some bitcoin on the side. By image, it looked like I was on road to retire early and do very well, and if I kept all of it today, I would be pretty close to retiring as well, nearly 25%+ done, and already, which means in 5-10 years I would be retiring without a doubt, well I would still work, I wouldn't know what to do when I "retire", like just watch netflix all day? :D

But in a sense, I would not "need" money, that's the better term. But what happened? A loved one got sick, and took years, but eventually they passed away, for all those years I had to take care of many bills, and of course that meant first selling all the investments I had, and then it meant getting into debt as well. Now I have less debt again, getting rid of it thanks to bitcoin, but I also do not make much investment aside, I hope if nothing bad happens, I will probably be back again on the next bull run and not this one.

Many of the newbies don't believe what we say about them, with the experience that we share until they see how the charts went in the past and they start to realize that we're telling them the truth and that it's going to take time for them to accumulate. And, this is the strategy that they have to do while they can and if they have larger targets in the future. The scenario that we typically see is about someone realizing their mistake of not accumulating at the bottom. But no one's perfect, we all have our moments of accumulation, it may not be the bottom but at least it's way below the peak that we've seen and the only matter that many of us did was we did became consistent in DCA.

I think what matters by that time if someone decides to do it is about their happiness and fulfillment.

Of course, we can agree to disagree.

Bitcoin remains amongst the best, if not the best asset in the world, and so failure/refusal to recognize that aspect about bitcoin likely means that you don't really understand bitcoin and you don't know how to allocate towards it or to treat it, which is too bad for you.

We know that historically bitcoin has performed the best out of any assets (especially if accounting for its widespread availability to anyone in the world), and also especially if we zoom out and we consider longer rather than shorter timelines, so in that sense, the longer that anyone has been into bitcoin and mostly errored on the side of buying it (accumulating it) and holding it and not selling it or trading it, then the more likely that he has outperformed other assets. 

Sure we went over that past performance does not guarantee future results, and sure we could also imply that the more than bitcoin has historically appreciated, then that takes away some of bitcoin's future upside potential, yet it surely seems to continue to be the case that bitcoin's investment thesis is not getting any weaker, and it also seems well to be the case that bitcoin is not even close to being a mature asset yet, even though  a lot of people ongoingly and continually make the mistake of assessing bitcoin as if it were a mature asset, which also has a kind of embedded assumption about them being too late to get into bitcoin (which is also wrong).


Yes it is problematic to reallocate from winners and give to losers, it is like refusing to water the grass and instead watering the weeds because you are trying to treat the inferior items with a kind of equality and redistribution (reallocation)  of the value from the good items to the bad ones.  That is a way to ongoingly cause your asssets to underperform even though they are getting a bitcoin boost they are not getting anything close to bitcoin's true benefits including allowing it to do its natural thing, which is to compound value upon itself.

Think about the matter, since 2015, bitcoin has compounded upon itself in the ballpark of 9 times, which causes something like 256x returns.


The power of compounding is amazing, especially when it is allowed to let itself work and not to purposefully stifle it.


Of course, you can do whatever you like to make yourself feel good, even though you are ONLY hurting yourself and the performance of your overall portfolio by doing that, and yeah it is a choice, it is a conservative choice that some  other investors due.. including those who manage various investments for others (they might even have legal obligations to engage in such regular reallocations and not letting any one asset get above a certain number and also they have issues of sometimes having to carry certain kinds of inferior assets, like US bonds/treasuries), so they may well end up with quite inferior performance and lack of enlightenment, even though there may well be periods where those kinds of portfolios are more stable.. like as if an old person in his late 70s might want more stability of income and retention of portfolio value because he cannot take any chances in regards to his being able to draw the same income for the next 10-20 years or however long he is expecting to draw income in his remaining years.


You don't have to go all in bitcoin, and sure you might still choose to add some other assets to your overall portfolio without overly diluting your bitcoin portion, yet sure, you can do what you like, yet it probably is not even going to come close to bitcoin's performance, and you don't even have to be close to as aggressive as you are implying in regards to your bitcoin as you seem to be arguing... but, hey, whatever, you do you.. and guys can make their choices, and hopefully they are able to figure out ways to actually get advantages of bitcoin including advantages of compounding value that has good chances to continue, even if not guaranteed.

I recall a lot of talk about properties and real estate years ago, and sure sometimes the evidence is ambiguous.. but still we can look at prices of real estate at various points and how many bitcoin it took to buy such properties then versus now, and the evidence is quite outrageous how much bitcoin has outperformed real estate, especially if we might look 4 years or more and the longer back we go the greater bitcoin's outperformance of real estate.. which we also should realize is an inferior place to store value as compared with bitcoin... but hey.. you can figure out your allocations.. and see how it ends up working out for you 5-10 years or more down the road, with real estate as compared with bitcoin.


Well, if you ended up giving up your bitcoin, then you should realize a need to focus on building it back, so sure it can take a while to do, but putting value in bitcoin seems a good idea.. even though surely each of us is responsible for our own choices of where to put our investments and how aggressive that we can be without over doing it... It seems to me that we do not want to end up out of the game by ending up selling too many of our bitcoin too soon, especially if there are ways to avoid that kind of a thing.. and so we should be striving to manage our resources so that we are selling bitcoin last, in the event that we are having to sell more things than we would like to sell due to exigent circumstances.

I get it and that's really working when we've got dividends that could pay our lifestyle together with bonds. This approach is way lesser risk but the rewards are decent if you've got decent amount of investment as well.

This is the life that conservative investors should take and I'd love to go there in the next few years.

How I wish that I've got some hundred of Bitcoin. But I agree that what you've said is that we should allocate with minimum that we can, at least for those that haven't diversified yet and start to look up into the assets that they are convenient with.

It's notable that we've got some plans on when and how much we'll cash these assets. We have ways of balancing our portfolios but I am seeing investors that are full pledged with Bitcoin and that's why I've asked 'even in Bitcoin' but that's them, as we say to each their own.

And we all know it that BTC has been performing very well and one of the best globally that has ever existed.

the useful idiot has been screaming to people for a couple years to DCA into bitcoin..no matter what, and no matter the price

he knows (but doesnt want to admit) that DCA'ing in ATH season is not efficient and not recommended when prices are higher, so instead he is now playing the game that people should start thinking of diversifying(putting less into bitcoin in this season) for when the prices are too high

and this includes (but not in the manner he will admit to), cashing out coin at the ATH near extremes of good profit and for a while put somewhere else until the post-ATH correction has progressed for a while to then buy back in

(as previous debate with him showed he doesnt believe in cashing out to rebuy later(trade))
(it is funny how he is now wanting people to get more involved in regularly switching and moving funds(trading) depending on the seasonal prices)

..
his game and the game of DCA promoters is that he/they want people to DCA non-stop at no matter what price, to keep the buy pressure for those who want the price to rise so they can sell.. and now he is realising how his own game is failing him as he knows he is now going to stop DCA'ing as much and then sell out near the ATH extreme and he needs to not admit that its because he failed his own "always DCA" strategy.. so he wants to play it off as something else

yes selling and not DCAing in the extremes of ATH season is apt advise and finding other assets that are on their seasonal low is apt advise.. but the useful idiot will not admit that constant DCA 'no matter what' was bad advice

so yes folks plan to sell SOME coin at the ATH extreme premiums and then plan later to buy back in when the POST-ATH correction low season starts

the funniest part of all, especially in this topic.. is i suggested the best investment and re-investment method to maximise the potential of entering and staying in FIRE and FI is to sell high buy low during those known seasons.

and now although he is not wording it as such, he is now tailoring his DCA game to do things exactly as i said, but wording it differently to not admit his defeat

Of course, each of us has to attempt to figure out his ability to accumulate bitcoin within his own means, and while retaining his own balances of finances.  Even if I have been suggesting that guys moderate their level of bitcoin accumulation to their own circumstances, I have also continuously asserted that it is also probably good that guys accumulate bitcoin as aggressively as they are able to without overdoing it. I believe that there is no need for brand new investors to diversify their investments, especially if they have identified bitcoin as a place that they would like to focus their investment, and perhaps increase their bitcoin investment until it gets to a level in which diversification into other assets/currencies besides dollars and BTC starts to seem practical and reasonable.  I would not proclaim to know at what point diversification is necessary, yet it seems that guys need to figure out those kinds of things, and really diversification does not seem to be a problem for brand new investors, even though frequently we will hear folk proclaiming that new investors need to consider diversification as part of their beginning approach to investing.

I think that one of the most important things with bitcoin is getting started as soon as possible, and then to figure out the various details as you go, and sure one of the important things in regards to investing into bitcoin is making sure that you are investing from your discretionary income, so you have to make sure that you have discretionary income and you should come into bitcoin with a plan to hold whatever bitcoin that you buy for 4-10 years or more.  So there could be some need for a beginner to start out fairly conservatively such as $10 to $100 per week, and not to increase his investment into bitcoin until he is getting somewhat comfortable with learning about various aspects of what bitcoin is and perhaps figuring out ways to self-custody it in the event that he might start buying bitcoin through an exchange or figuring from where he is going to start to purchase bitcoin, especially some jurisdictions might have fewer options than others in terms of places and ways that normal people can start to buy bitcoin.


Personally, I doubt that there are any needs to sell any bitcoin for the first 4-10 years or more, so one of the main considerations for any person might be merely just how to accumulate as much bitcoin as he is able to accumulate within reasonable ways, and perhaps tweaking his BTC accumulation plans over the years as his BTC stash grows, so surely a guy who had been stacking BTC for $100 per week for the past 4-8 years is going to be in a different position from a guy who had been stacking only $10 per week worth of bitcoin for the past 4-8 years.

Even if we look at your own forum registration date, jossiel, if you had been stacking $100 per bitcoin each week since your forum registration in March 2016, then your level of having had accumulated bitcoin would help to inform you the extent to which you have enough BTC or if you might feel that you need more bitcoin in order to get to your target level... So $100 per week since your forum registration date would have resulted in about $46k invested and right in the ballpark of 12.2553 BTC accumulated (https://dcabtc.com?sd=2016-03-26&sda=custom&f=weekly&d=9_years&ac=10000&c=true), which surely would give you quite a few options, yet it still is not objectively clear whether that quantity of bitcoin would have had been enough bitcoin for your particular situation or not, even though we can see that today the spot price value of 12.2553 bitcoin is $1,160,000 and the 200-WMA value of that quantity of BTC is $528k (https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy?U2FsdGVkX188lv/DJHyHKh0OHAt5HFJbYJ0bavVSKhhp7JwRbxjioHyNNrIVtyV8IqkF818mpmw9w8bx7JWJWg==).

We cannot turn the clock back in regards to how many any BTC any of us had accumulated or whether we had made various mistakes in our BTC accumulation journey along the way, yet I doubt that the advice in regards how to focus on bitcoin has become different merely because time has passed and bitcoin prices are currently around 200x higher than they were in March of 2016.   In other words, I doubt that bitcoin's investment thesis is any weaker now than it was in March 2016, and most likely bitcoin's investment thesis is stronger today than it was in March 2016, so likely we need to consider our own bitcoin accumulation situation and figure out whether we have enough bitcoin or not.  If we have enough or if we have more than enough BTC for our own situation, then we have way more options than if we still might not have enough. 

So if we don't have enough bitcoin, then it seems that the course of action would be to continue to buy bitcoin regularly, consistently, persistently, ongoingly and perhaps even aggressively until we get to a point of having enough or more than enough... So, from my own perspective, the most logical way to reach such status of getting to enough bitcoin or more than enough bitcoin is by continuing to buy it.  Trading it or selling to buy back more or fucking around with shitcoins are not part of any practical and/or logical way to clearly continue to build a guy's BTC stack size.  If you made those kinds of trading or fucking around with shitcoins or selling bitcoin to buy back cheaper mistakes in the past, then it seems to me to better to discontinue with those bad habits and focus on buying bitcoin until you reach a status of having enough or more than enough...and surely you are the one who should be in the best position to figure out how many bitcoin is enough for you or more than enough for you.


Yep.  We can look back at charts and see that you are stating a truth, and I don't see any evidence to see that bitcoin's investment thesis is getting any weaker with the passage of time, so it seems to me that bitcoin continues to be amongst the best (if not the best?) place to put value, so each of us likely should continue to consider it important to continue to build our bitcoin stash in as aggressive a way as we are able to do without overdoing it.


You might be exaggerating a little bit franky. 

I will agree that it is true that I have been saying very similar things for about the past 10-ish years, and so I have continued to consider that everyone needs to have bitcoin, yet they still need to figure out the particulars of their own strategy, yet if someone does not have any bitcoin, then they are no going to be prepared for the possibility that BTC prices go up unless they buy bitcoin, so in that regard, I have almost continuously suggested that all people should be attempting to prepare themselves for either BTC price direction, and the only way to prepare for up is by having some BTC.

I likely refined my message over the years, even though it has been similar and I truly don't like to take responsibility for what others do, since each person has to take responsibility for himself, whether he buys bitcoin or not, and the failure/refusal to buy bitcoin is also a kind of action through inaction, and guys are responsible for their own inactions - which are especially worse if the know about the possibility to act.


 How is someone brand new to bitcoin going to know whether the BTC price is high or low? and/or how would he know if the BTC price is going to go up or down?  if a brand new person does not have any bitcoin, then he has to buy some in order to be prepared for up.  Sure once he has some bitcoin, then he is more prepared for up as compared with the no coiner, but it still might not be clear about whether he bought enough to justify waiting as a strategy rather than just continuing to buy.

Surely once a person has been in bitcoin for a longer period of time, perhaps even a whole cycle or more, then he likely will have some better ideas about whether he has enough bitcoin or not.

I doubt that it is very productive for brand new bitcoiners to be looking at the BTC price and trying to figure out what to do (whether or not to buy some bitcoin) based on the bitcoin price, so they likely would be better off to buy rather than wait.  I hardly consider waiting to be a good investment strategy, except maybe for someone who already bought some BTC.

Let's consider a hypothetical guy who might be in his mid-to-late 20s, and he recently learned about bitcoin and started to think that it might be a good idea to invest into bitcoin.

He has been working a couple of years, and he has an annual income of about $30k per year, and his expenses are around $18k per year.  Let's say that he also has around $10k in cash that is in his savings account (or perhaps stuffed under his mattress). He does not have any other investments besides his job and his living situation (in which he rents).  Let's say that he also has built up some additional back up funds that he considers to be his emergency funds, so around $4,500 that he considers to be around 3 months of his expenses.. in case he loses his job or experiences some kind of an emergency expenses.

He learns about bitcoin over the past few weeks, and he has  been thinking that it might be a good idea to invest into bitcoin.  He sees that the current price is $94.5k, and the guy has to figure out how to start to buy bitcoin, even though he has already concluded that he believes that bitcoin would probably be a good thing to buy and even to learn more about.   

The guy is tentatively thinking that he might need to invest around 15% or more of his income into bitcoin, which would be right around $4,500 or more per year, and he is thinking that even based on his current finances, he might be in a position to invest around 25% of his annual income into bitcoin, which would be right around $7,500 per year..

Do you believe that this hypothetical guy with these kinds of financial circumstances should wait before he starts buying bitcoin or should he get started investing into bitcoin?

You likely can imagine some variation of what I think based on my framing of the hypothetical and based on my forum post history, yet you are the one seeming to suggest that whatever I think is not correct, and perhaps you can tell us (franky) whether the BTC price is high or low right now, and if the current BTC price should be affecting what this hypothetical guy might do in regards to getting started in bitcoin (if at all?).


Whatever you are describing does not sound like something that I would be suggesting in regards to any newbie to bitcoin.  You might be making shit up to suggest that I am asserting that any beginner investor should diversify, especially a beginner to bitcoin.  Sure if a person already has various investments at the time that he learns about bitcoin, then his already existing investments may well affect both his options and how he might consider about establishing his initial bitcoin accumulation strategies, if he decides to go down the path of establishing a bitcoin stake.


Guys can do whatever the fuck they want, yet I consider my discussion of various sustainable withdrawal strategies (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475347.msg63213914#msg63213914) to ONLY kick in once a person has reached a status of overaccumulation of bitcoin, and surely that could take many years, perhaps even a couple cycles or more for a newbie bitcoiner to reach a status of overaccumulation.

Surely, I don't recommend fucking around with trying to figure out if the BTC price is going up or down for newer bitcoin investors, and perhaps anyone accumulating bitcoin in their very first four years (first whole cycle) may well be better off not selling any bitcoin at all, unless  it is a sell and replace kind of a situation, or alternatively any guy who comes to bitcoin with an ability to front load his bitcoin investment (and presumptively achieve a status of over-accumulation of bitcoin) would have more options than an overwhelming majority of normal people who have to spend many years building up their investment (including in bitcoin) before they might even be close to being in a position to be selling any bitcoin. 

That is my tentative framework, yet I also recognize that people can do whatever they like in regards to bitcoin accumulation and or maintenance of their BTC stash, even dumb shit..so surely I cannot really stop people from coming up with their own dumb ideas including ideas to fuck around with trying to trade bitcoin, or to screw around with shitcoins or to believe that it is a good idea to sell bitcoin while anticipating that they are going to be able to buy back cheaper... I consider a lot of that to be dumb.. especially for newbies in their first bitcoin cycle who probably should be trying to figure out how to accumulate bitcoin through various buying only strategies, including DCA, lump sum and/or buying the dip, even though DCA is likely amongst the best of beginner friendly strategies, guys should tailor whatever their approach or  their combination of approaches to their own financial and psychological circumstances.
 

I am not switching around in my ideas.  Of course, guys have more options once they have accumulated BTC.  I don't recommend any trading or fucking around with shitcoins, but some guys cannot resist their desires to gamble or to believe that they can outsmart the market, so frequently I suggest to focus on bitcoin, and to only fuck around with trading and/or shitcoins with no more than 10% of the size of their bitcoin holdings, but yeah, we likely realize that traders, gamblers and shitcoiners may well not be able to focus on bitcoin and/or to limit their fucking around to less than 10% of the size of their bitcoin holdings... including that they might lose money and then figure out ways to continue to increase whatever they are allocating into shitcoins, trading and/or gambling.  I recommend focusing on bitcoin first, but sure guys are going to do what they are going to do, including figuring that they can be smarter or that they will be lucky or whatever get-rich-quick motivations that they might have and cannot resist putting into practice in relation to bitcoin and/or their lame ideas of crypto.
 

You really are a nutjob, sometimes.   You also seem to know how to ruin an otherwise seemingly good thread.   ::)

I describe various strategies, and I tend to try to tailor my description of strategies towards newbies since frequently newbies need to figure out how to get started and to build their BTC stack, which can take a long time to do.  Surely the longer that they are building their BTC stack then their options may well start to be informed by how many BTC that they had already accumulated and other aspects of their individual particulars that they need to attempt to assess and study and to set up.  I outline 9 individual factors (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719590#msg58719590) that are good for newbies to consider and to continue to figure those out even as they might advance in their bitcoin stack size or considerations about how to manage their BTC stash as they might start to approach higher levels of BTC accumulation.


If bitcoin is amongst the best of investments (and perhaps even the best investment that is widely available to people all around the world), the probably it is best for folks to get started at whatever the BTC price happens to be.  I am not sure how normie newbies are going to figure out that waiting is a good strategy, and also if a person has an investment timeline that is 4-10 years or longer, then he probably is way better off to get started sooner rather than later, and so I am having trouble figuring out in advance if a guy should wait rather than getting started, especially right now.. and maybe go back to the earlier hypothetical guy that I describe.  Are you suggesting that the guy should wait or what are you suggesting the guy should do?

Sure, you have already spent more than 12 years in bitcoin, so it is quite likely that you already established your bitcoin stash in your first few years of being in bitcoin, but just because you have already established your BTC stash, I doubt that we can presume that a newbie to bitcoin should employ a waiting strategy rather than a getting started by buying some BTC strategy.

You seem to have it all figured out, and sure if we look back at the BTC price and its movements historically, we might be able to proclaim when a guy should have bought and when he should have waited, but right now, we cannot go back to earlier times and earlier prices.  We have to decide what to do based on our own circumstances of today, including that if someone does not have any coins, you are suggesting that they should wait?  Surely you already know that I don't consider waiting to be a good strategy, especially when it comes to bitcoin and no coiners... but hey whatever, guys can do what they like and even stay no coiners if that is what they choose to do.
 

I don't recommend that approach to BTC, especially for newbies..


Your ideas suck because you seem to be presuming that guys (including newbies) are going to know in advance what are high BTC prices and what are low BTC prices, and trading is not a very good approach to bitcoin anyhow.  Sure if someone already overly accumulated bitcoin, then he might be in a position to sell, yet I also know that frequently newbies prematurely assess themselves to have reached an overaccumulation status, so they are trading rather than investing.. .. so yeah, it can be quite tempting for newbies to fuck around with trading when they should be spending their time, energies and value in regards to building their BTC stash which can take a couple cycles to get to such status, unless they happen to be someone who is able to front load his bitcoin investment and perhaps already had many years investing in other assets prior to getting into bitcoin.


Ok, Franky.  You are the smartest person I ever did not meet  (lucky me... :P).  Members of this forum are also so lucky to have your smarter-than-everyone-else approach to bitcoin and/or any other topic that we might discuss on the forum.

Do you wonder why you get banned from various sections of the forum when you seem to have so many difficulties to engage in any kind of genuine discussion and substantive batting around of disagreements that might sometimes exist between the perspectives of forum members? 

Surely I should not judge you from your past transgressions, but you seem to have a lot of ongoing character flaws that you are having trouble controlling, and it could be possible that your various earlier bans in technical sections of the forum have been lifted and you are back into the good graces of the forum moderators in those sections? 

Surely, it can be problematic when you seem to be unable to resist just making shit up in regards to substantive discussions and/or nuanced points that might have been made by other forum members, whether referring to your representation of earlier discussions with me on this topic or other topics, or perhaps other kinds of topics that I see you having with other forum members in which you seem to want to battle to the death over points that are not even in your favor to argue.. .but yeah of course, you just love to proclaim victory, whether such victory is actually based in reality or not.

Frequently you seem unable to control your emotions and your ongoing inclinations to convolute and confuse almost any topic - especially the more posts you make, the worse the situations seem to get, or at least I have noticed that kind of pattern in your various seemingly ongoingly petty battles, which likely frustrates a lot of forum members, even guys who are trying to keep the discussions somewhat productive, which I consider myself to be trying to accomplish such bare-minimum levels of productiveness and trying to stay somewhat on point, even trying to go over matters with a dweeb nutjob like yourself, who seems unable to keep himself from making shit up in order to serve his own fantasy talking points and/or ongoing desires for self-aggrandizement and to be assessed as being correct all of the time. 

If you weren't so delusional, you might be able to recognize that your ongoing and seemingly petty desires to always be correct are frequently getting in the way of your abilities to carry out some kind of a productive and meaningful discussion that also does not scare other members away from the topic and/or participation in the topic, whether the topic is controversial or not... You seem to ongoingly, continuously and incessantly wanting to get into controversy where no controversy should exist.

Your own ongoingly arrogant and destructive behaviors seem to be part of the reason why "we" cannot have nice things in these here parts. #justsaying.  Potentially, one of your greatest talents (if we might consider you talented in any way at all) might be that you are able to drive even the most godly and innocent of forum members into ungodly desires in their responses to your ongoing and seeming insistence upon making baloney statements... .. hahahahaha.. 

speaking of being banned from the development section..
it was because from 2016(pre-segwit) to 2019 i was calling out segwits failures, whereby it does not validate all data and thus allows junk data to be appended to the end of a transaction(amongst other failures) and guess what happened in 2023... ordinals junk proved me right.. i told people in this forum 7 years before people started doing it

core devs didnt like me calling out their failures(risked breaking their sponsorship deals if they fixed the bug or didnt do segwit), they dont like scrutiny or critique so went on a hissy fit controlling the topics because they think they are untouchable gods

i dont think im smarter then all. i just think i bother to actually read, learn, research and educate myself on things.. and point things out when others are wrong

as for your other meanderings and mumbles
yes i know you suggest/promote your 'all in, no diversity, DCA no matter what' strategy to newbies.. thats exactly what i said in my previous post. you didnt need to waste a dozen paragraphs to agree with what i said but word it like you are disagreeing.. strange

as for people including newbies to not know about when things are high or low.. .. a quick 3 second google search or even just a week reading posts reveal everyone talking about ATH seasons and correction seasons, cycles and such.. so anyone willing to learn can find out quick.. or even passively get educated reasonably within a week, as its a popular topic
bitcoin is cyclical so a better planning investment compared to other assets

if you think newbies should be setting a lifetime plan without even doing a 3second search or spend a week to learn about an asset.. is a failure on you
if you think newbies should just buy into an asset first day, without even doing a 3second search or spend a week to learn about an asset.. is a failure on you

its you that wants newbies not to think/plan, educate themselves
its you that wants newbies not to use the cycles
its you that wants newbies not to look for efficient investment advice and just to plough funds in, no matter what, at any price.

you are the one doing newbies a dis-service

I doubt that you are saying much that justifies any meaningful additional response from me, beyond what I already said, yet it seems worth reiterating that I don't consider myself as any kind of god or guru, and over the  years I have refined some of my discussions of bitcoin in various ways, and I created a couple of my investment ideas threads (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719584#msg58719584) that guys can refer to, and also I can link to during some of the seemingy repeated topics.  Surely one of my ongoingly strong suggestions is for newbies to get started right away, and surely guys have to figure out their own position size.  Yes, in my earlier post I came out with a pretty specific hypothetical of a guy in his 20s who is new to bitcoin, has no bitcoin, yet he has $10k in cash, a $30k per year income with around $18k of expenses. You completely ignored that example.  Should the guy get started right away?  What kinds of actions do you think he should take right now?  Should he wait?  Is waiting a good strategy?  I am talking about right now at this moment, not some fantastical idea about what a guy should have done at some past random point that you would like to pick, even though I have no problem choosing random points either whether we are talking about the same kind of a guy who would have had been new to bitcoin 5 years ago in early 2020, 3 years ago in early 2022, 1.5 years ago in mid 2023?  or some other date that you would want to focus upon.

Frequently you seem to have a tendency to want to argue with yourself in regards to made up bullshit positions.  Let's go over a specific example and see if we disagree or not? And, yeah if your position that the guy should study the matter, and figure it out, then sure you can recommend guys take that approach, even though I have quite a few doubts that any newbie should be fucking around with trading.  Sure, even newbies are going to come to bitcoin with various kinds of past experiences, resources and psychology, so they should be attempting to account for and tailor some aspects of their approach to their 9 individual factors (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719590#msg58719590), which also includes a kind of presumption that even if they are a newbie, the longer they spend accumulating bitcoin, then part of what they already did is going to affect their perspective in regards to where they are at and if they might want to stick with their plans about where they are going or to modify their plans and actions from here on out based on their learnings.

For some reason, you continue to accuse me of leading guys down the wrong path, which surely seems quite questionable how whatever the fuck I say even matters very much, since I have my opinions about what to do, how to think about bitcoin and actions that maybe should be taken as soon as possible, yet guys have to figure out for themselves in regards to how much weight they want to give to a person on the internet versus coming to their own conclusions in regards to whether or not they should take any actions in regards to looking into matters more or to just blindedly jump straight in.

Even though I have been here around this forum for about a year and a half less than you, which still is nearly 11 years for me, I still consider that I have almost no responsibility for guys choosing to read what I say or follow what I say, and each person has to figure their shit out for themselves, and sure they can look at some of my ideas and figure out if any of it suits them, and they can choose to blindly follow what I say, yet that still is their choice and responsibility to figure out whether what I say might apply to them and the extent to which they might need to tailor what I say to their situation or perhaps come up with their own variation or just completely refuse to do anything.  It is their choice, even if I will tell newbie no coiners to get the fuck started, which they can interpret how they like in regards to whether it means researching BTC or researching coin sources, or to go find the nearest person and buy some BTC or to remove all their savings and any retirement that they have to buy BTC or to mortgage their house or to sell all of their chairs and buy bitcoin with that or to start trading or whatever.  I surely have various things I recommend for and various things I recommend against, yet guys have to figure out their nuances, including even if they have discretionary income or what is discretionary income. If they make mistakes and lose all their money, then too bad for them, it's not my responsibility to figure out any nuances that might exist in their situations to help to guide them towards this action or another action - yet it does not stop me from continuing to suggest newbie no coiners to get started.

By the way, I also suggest that if someone is absolutely just hearing about bitcoin, yet they don't really have any money, and they are thinking about college or various kinds of learning activities that are likely going to cost them money and take their time so that they won't be able to earn money, then they still have to figure out the extent that buying bitcoin may or may not fit very well with their personal plans or whether they should change or tweak their personal plans.  Getting started might not involve the investment of any money, especially if they don't have any money, and yeah there could be a guy who just had a baby, and neither he or the baby's mom has very much money to feed their kid or to take care of the kid, and maybe the guy decides to buy bitcoin rather than buying food for the kid. I have a hard time figuring out how I am responsible for choices that people make in regards to their choices to either invest in bitcoin or to trade it. .even if I might try to describe parameters of what I am suggesting, and they can misunderstand what I am saying, so who's responsibility is that?  I tell them that it is very important to get started in bitcoin as soon as possible, and they interpret my assertion to mean that they are permitted to engage in illegal and/or immoral activities in order to accomplish the goals of getting started in bitcoin.  

How am I responsible for their interpretations and their chosen actions or inactions based on my various opinions that I am attempting to share on the interwebs?  I tell them no matter what, don't listen to Franky1 because Franky1 is either a retard or close to being a retard.

What if they listen to me or believe my assessment of Franky1?  What if they do the opposite?  Maybe I am a very convincing person, and sure many of us may well try to be convincing in the ways that we attempt to express our ideas, and perhaps that continues to be part of the justification to disclaim from time to time in order to attempt to stay humble in regards to any suggestions that any of us might make and clarifying from time to time that readers of these posts have to figure out their own shit and/or nuances and/or applicability of ideas to their situations...and sure I might try to help them so that they might be in a position to better help themselves if they provide me some details, yet at the same time, their decisions about whether to act and how to execute still remains their responsibility for doing it and any consequences, including that there surely are times that I am not correct.. once or twice it has happened... you believe that last statement, then you are likely retarded or close to retarded and you are responsible for your own level of being gullible or not able to understand a joke or an exaggerated point or nuance/subtlety that sometimes exists.

aww now the guy wants to realise that when people follow him, which he loves to see people follow his game, he now realises there are consequences and so long after they have followed his "just jump in and stay in and keep paying in no matter what" back fire he now wants to write paragraphs after paragraphs saying its their own fault and not blame him

gotta laugh

also its not about jump in or wait aimlessly
its about learning and get educated to make decisions before throwing money at something

again his wait or invest mentions nothing about learning about an asset its just a time thing. do it or miss out kind of thing

anyway i still am laughing many days later that a guy that has no interest in entering fire himself.
a guy that has no experience of fire, is soo belligerently writing walls of texts in a fire topic giving newbies bad advice (on a topic and similar topics he has no knowledge or experience about) and is then seen changing his strategy, rewording it and then saying people only have themselves to blame for listening to him

Sure.  I find it to be nice when forum members find some kind of value in my posts and/or in my ideas, yet I am not hurt when they don't read them and/or during instances in which my posts seem to be misunderstood or misinterpreted.  

If I am interacting with other members about my posts, then frequently, I will try to clarify or to communicate back and forth if there might be disagreements to the extent that it is feasible, yet we still know that some forum members might struggle or battle in their attempts to understand some of the ideas that I am trying to share, like you seem to be battling to understand some of my ideas, even though it can be difficult to actually take you seriously in terms of whether you really are trying to understand the contents of my posts, as if you were actually trying to engage in a meaningful, substantive and/or genuine discussion rather than just ongoingly seeming to argue and/or to purposefully misstate several of my points for the mere sake of it.


Yep.. I suppose that one of my thoughts in regards to bitcoin is for newbies to attempt to be as aggressive as they are able to be in regards to buying bitcoin, yet if they end up fucking up and going overboard in their level of aggressiveness or on the other hand, if they sit on their hands and they don't buy any or enough bitcoin, then their chosen action or inaction would be difficult to proclaim to have had been my fault.  Each person is responsible for his own action  or his failure to act.

Even though I have my doubts, perhaps you are starting to understand a wee bit MOAR better in regards to personal responsibility of each of us?  Perhaps? perhaps?


Yeah.. you personally gotta laugh because you seem to not be able to control your seemingly immature lil selfie, so in that regard it seems that you are just trying to find some reason to find fault, where none exists and perhaps to have fun with your trolling behaviors.

Perhaps you are just purposefully trying to distract this thread from any meaningful bitcoin-related discussions?  or how bitcoin might fit within a FIRE approach to managing how to invest or what to do once achieving a status in which FIRE might start to become more relevant on a personal level.


If you believe that you need to do some kind of research rather than just getting started, then that is your choice.  I tend to consider that one of the most important things for guys to know is whether they have discretionary income or not.  If they know that they have discretionary income, then they can get started, yet there still might be devil in the details in regards to how much discretionary income that they have and various other matters to fit bitcoin investment into their lives, yet if they know that they have discretionary income, then they are at least in a position to get started, even if the size of their getting started might be held back if they might not have very good grasp over their finances or their psychology or other aspects within their 9 individual factors  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719590#msg58719590) that might be important, yet can be learned along the way too.


As an overall perspective, the best time to invest into bitcoin was yesterday, yet the second best time to invest in bitcoin is today.  We cannot turn back the clock to yesterday, so we are left with today.  From my perspective, waiting does not tend to be a good option, but sure, if you or any other guy wants to wait and/or to study more about bitcoin or your various financial circumstances and try to sort out bitcoin and/or your personal financial circumstances, then that is up to you.    It is likely a dumb approach if newbies get caught up upon trying to figure out dips or waiting or even trying to figure out a lot of technical details about bitcoin, beyond having some basic and broad understandings that bitcoin is likely the soundest money ever achieve, invented or discovered, so if they at least understand that angle (which sometimes you seem to understand that and other times you seem to get distracted away from that through your always wanting to be right), then they can at least get started and learn details about bitcoin along the way.. and the most important details anyhow have to do with whether they have money or not, and personal financial money  (investment) management kinds of skills and practices rather than imagining that they have to learn a whole bunch of things or to overly complicate matters. 

Yeah, there can also be a lot of complications with money and personal financial management, yet a lot of those skills such as basic math and organizing our lives are already within the knowledge set of many people and the kinds of things that they regularly do, and so now they have bitcoin to help them, rather than  getting overly caught up in technicalities, perfection and/or overly complicating matters, as you seem to want to do in your seeming aim to lure people into following your nonsensical ideas... or into some belief to follow whatever franky says, when franky happens to be full of shit and misleading people half of the time... we need a "franky halvening" so we could cut out half of whatever franky says.. if that is even possible?

On the other hand, if you already know that you have $10 that you aren't going to need for 4-10 years or longer, then you might as well figure out how to get started, buy some bitcoin with it, and learn about the details along the way so that you can continue to invest $10 every week, and perhaps move such weekly amount to $100 and beyond depending on your personal finances and psychology and other matters as I mentioned in my list of 9 individual considerations (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376945.msg58719590#msg58719590).


I try to mostly post from experiences, and I try to improve my ways of thinking, but yeah, I am not claiming to be perfect in regards to either my ideas or my approach to bitcoin or anything else in life. Forums like this allow us to share ideas and bat around opinions.  Sometimes we can learn from our own construction of posts or we can learn from others, and sometimes other members might find some values in regards to our having had attempted to share aspects of our perspectives and experiences.

Sometimes there also are gaps in experience and knowledge and we can ask questions or try to find resources to share or to inquire about... so there is that research angle, too... an angle that you seem to want to put in your signature.