Bitcoin Forum

I think it's time we come to terms with the fact that Bitcoin Testnet has value—very little, but value nonetheless.

Why?

Proof of Work (POW) – Insert that sales pitch here.

Time – It takes time to acquire these, and many people would rather throw 5 Dogecoins (https://altquick.com/swap/) at it and be done—then bill the person who hired them.

Demand for Testing – When demand overruns the free faucets, they must either monetize or continue burning money by handing out funds to third-world bums.

Effective for Airdrops – Using Testnet to airdrop tokens in exchange for widespread testing of DeFi wallet-connected tools works surprisingly well. It attracts a large number of users to stress-test products before launch.  I'm sure it would work for third party aggressive centralized testing as well in exchange for a reward.

Insert the normal reasons needed here

I see plenty of reasons why Bitcoin Testnet has value and very few reasons why it shouldn't, aside from the argument that "it's not supposed to."

Is Bitcoin supposed to be used for a lot of the stuff it has been used for?  *insert the not supposed to bullshit here and all the centralized action the Bitcoin community development has taken against those that aren't "supposed" to use Bitcoin for _____.*  (I don't support this, and I hope you don't either, for the record.)

Free markets talk, and bullshit walks.
Bitcoin Testnet v3 and v4 have yet to hit zero bids in their supported markets alongside Bitcoin.

https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet3 (https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet3)

https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet4 (https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet4)

There is no "reset" in Testnet as previous propaganda suggested—only code rug pulls, attempts, and people exploiting bugs in the software (https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/) to help justify relaunching to reset the block rewards... the same kind that could happen elsewhere.  *cough* Bitcoin *cough*

Saying Bitcoin Testnet has no value is not true.

Bitcoin Testnet is and has to be an altcoin.

There's no doubt this is a diamond whose potential very few know. I already have my coins, so all that's left is to wait for the word to spread and go to the moon...

It's not that it has no value, it just shouldn't be traded. That's AFAIK since tBTC can be easily obtained from tBTC faucet sites. But back to the origin of tBTC, it takes energy to even get it from its original source. So, saying tBTC is worthless is simply wrong.


Since joining the crypto industry, I've never even seen a reset which has been a warning for tBTC HODLers. BTW, it's great to see AltQuick now supports tBTC4 there. Then, I've 1 question for you, mate. Why is tBTC3 currently more expensive than tBTC4? Shouldn't the latest version be more expensive?

1. Because it is one of the oldest test networks in existence. You can see 2011-02-03 in the Genesis Block, and the last reset was in 2012, which is why you can see 2012-05-24 in block number 514.
2. It had a lot of halvings, so if you want to get some coins, you can mainly get them from transaction fees. The basic block reward is currently set to 9536 satoshis, and will be halved again soon, at block 4,200,000.
3. You can always mine testnet3 blocks on your CPU, no matter what. In testnet4, after 2016 blocks, when the difficulty is adjusted, only ASICs can mine a new block, so all CPU miners are stuck.
4. There were many altcoins, which used testnet3, so the price of a single testnet3 coin also includes the fact, that you can use it not only in testnet3, but also as a way to get other coins.
5. Blockstorms in testnet3 simply means, that their max block size is bigger. If you can produce six blocks per second, then you can confirm up to 24 MB of transactions per second. Which is not the case in testnet4.

No, because for example testnet4 was officially released, when around 40k blocks were already mined. And before that date, developers mined a lot of coins on their CPUs, so it is not a network, where everyone could mine coins from the very beginning. You needed some skills, to build binaries from the source code, to even start mining, when the network was created.

And also, when people switched their attention from testnet3 to testnet4, and started attacking testnet4 instead, then testnet3 suddenly became more stable, than it was. You can for example compare chain reorganizations here, to see that: https://fork.observer/

The post above me does a great job outlining the technical reasons why, but I think their are heavy social reasons at play too.

I feel and thought the same way, but v3 is pretty wide spread for a worthless testing tool and several projects use them in the asian market (they are wild).

The asian market has driven v3 for a year or so now.

V3 also isn't getting the markets hit by freshly earned block rewards.  Tons of those block rewards are long since gone... basically the same argument as Bitcoin, but amplified and "worthless". :P

Cash App also uses v3 and won't use v4 for some time due to lighting stuff. (lol)

Just to add to that previous post (sorry, breaking the rules, I know)... I think the thought of Testnet 4 being depreciated (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/e568c1dd134e0318c46113cb7dfc23b40e2829e8 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/e568c1dd134e0318c46113cb7dfc23b40e2829e8)) before it is well-established makes people concerned enough to avoid it as well (market & use wise).  Obviously, previous agreements are "Testnet will reset if traded," and I've very much established that I don't agree with that philosophy, and I'll continue to "test" this Testnet coin in ways I find interesting & educating, which right now is watching users use it on my website, a free market.  

IF Testnet has no value, then it will have no value on a free market.  It's as simple as that, IMO.


Services and people are switching over, though, and it's a network of folks who want to help people test.  I haven't seen a single service drop v3 though because it is so well established... even Bitcoin Core hasn't (but is scheduled).  It's an interesting experiment.  It'll be a nice cluster fuck if this becomes a weekly event or sad if it is completely removed because people can test on a centralized system...

If Testnet gets a firm "reset" date every 3 years or whatever, the markets will be hot potatoes, and people frankly love that.  "Sorry we didn't fuck you, this developer did."  Sharks are going to be sharks.  Services will have to be updated every 3 years, which is not easy on a global scale. (We will and have seen that difficulty with v4)

V4 is trading around 27 sats and v3 is trading around 330 sats... it's a huge spread.  Fun to watch.  I'm gambling v4 catches up, but v4 has miners dumping and v3 does not... so time will tell! (or maybe they are worthless and there will be no orders on the bid's left... totally possible.)

I guess it can be but honestly I do not understand the purpose of it even. It still follows the same protocol as bitcoin it just is in a different network so it is not like it is an independent currency even. It is not like it is just there for display either. It is for testing which is still a big contribution.
Should we not think about what could possibly be the consequences of trading testnet coins? There could be some confusion in the market. Divided community and many more.

Most definitely, I thought about it for years and at this point.


People trying to sell Testnet for Bitcoin is old dead problems in my opinion when Bitcoin was much cheaper and the Altcoins didn't have marketing budgets.

The crypto scamming market has far evolved past tricking tards into buying Testnet.  Forcing people to buy Bitcoin or Monero is far more profitable.


I feel like a huge value of Bitcoin is that we don't all have to agree with other businesses... if you don't like it, don't use it.  Bitcoin is used for a lot of really good shit and a lot of really bad shit, but that doesn't make one group try to nuke the other group with a few lines of code or even threats of it.

I don't think a divide in the community is necessarily a bad thing.  A few passionate coders could be a good thing as well if Testnet is "up to standard"... which it fucking well should be if it is included in the Core download!!!! (v3 was buggy, it's debatable if v4 is buggy too... testing is good and incentive to test is good as well if everyone has the understanding that it's a shitwar network.)

I can get behind the idea of Testnet Bitcoins having some value because of the reason OP has listed at the beginning of this thread, specially because there is an actual demand for them and a little effort which is needed to mine them.
Though, one of the things which need to be pointed out is who the value of Testnet coins is minimal and it is supposed to stay minimal. They are not supposed to be an asset to hold in the long term or supposed to be accepted as collateral, for obvious reasons.

Also, I don't have any doubt there would be scammers ready to try to fool newbies into paying the full price of real Satoshis in exchange of Testnet Satoshis, in order to take advantage of the similarity in the name between both networks... Anyways, each one of us can have their own opinion.

We should be careful in the space because scammers have tried every means to exploit us with the tempting styles they know. For me, I've exempted from all activities that I have no clue about especially when we don't have our proper stands in the system. Bitcoin testnet have value and it's important we anticipate in this sector since we've knowledge about it. Testnet growing vastly in the system and have become something we've valued and become acquainted with, I've always seen myself flying higher in the market with solid knowledge.

The idea maybe come up its because Bitcoin testnet is been used  for some activities that's why there's should be at least a little value with it so that those exert some efforts with this testnet coins will somehow get rewarded.

But I guess they are just erasing that earning option with these testnet coin since they don't want to confuse people and everyone will directly go to the real Bitcoin then deal with it. There's so many scammers in the scene and maybe they are preventing those possible scamming incident that's why they choose not to give value on Bitcoin testnet coins. But who knows maybe there would be a good demand would come and it gives value unto this coin.

I have already read some stories of newbies interested in buying Bitcoin and stumbling with a too-good-to-be-true offer, so they fall for it in order to save money for they Satoshis they intent to buy. In the end, they received Testnet Satoshis in exchange for the full price of those Satoshis as they were the actual deal, to it is reasonable Bitcoin Testnet developers want to make people reluctant on giving value to Testnet Bitcoins, because it could actually create confusion and make easier for scammers to get money out of people.
It is a matter of education and doing one's research, I know.,but the least chances scammers have to get away with their schemes, the better.

Wait... You mean some newbies falling victim of buying testnet coins with the actual amount of original coin? What a pity! But do they even deserve to be pitied? I don't think so. If you fail to learn the proper way, you'll eventually learn the hard way. I see no point in rushing to buy bitcoin when you don't really have the knowledge required. You need to know much about what you intend to invest in before the investment.


Testnet has value, there's no argument about that fact but the value is insignificant as long as you can not trade them at that value. The value here is not about what is displayed in your screen, it's beyond that. The fact that we make use of it to test run different tasks simply means it's valuable but that doesn't attribute it monetary value.

If we agreed to refer to bitcoin testnet as altcoin, what will happen to altcoins testnet? Remember altcoins have testnet too, what can they be called?

Even eth sepolia has value now, the problem is always with those people who keep claiming testnet token which supposedly to be used for testing, hoarding it, and abuse the faucet.
Meanwhile there's also ongoing layer2 projects or whatever it is that utilizes testnet coin heavily, last time I see people are seeking for bitcoin testnet to run hemi PoP validator.

So it's combination of demand and people abusing faucet that causes the token to have price. so I'm not even surprised.

This blows my mind as well.

I think they are traded on Defi that connects "real and fake"?

All of them are altcoins, unless you have networks, which are strongly connected through 1:1 peg, like Lightning Network, or like sidechains, similar to RSK or Liquid on Bitcoin. If you have independent chains, with some independent supply, then all of them are altcoins. You can label anything as "test", but it doesn't change the fact, that it is just another chain, with slightly different consensus, and that's the only difference. Think about "testnet" as just a part of the network's name: you have one altcoin named "testnet3", and another altcoin named "testnet4", and yet another altcoin named "eth sepolia", and so on.

If that's what can give value to anything, then look at this transaction: https://mempool.space/testnet4/tx/cc159432ffb7a166abeccc79800e9616a09ea9ac6937080c2ca37b38671970e5

You need Proof of Work to move the coins. For the first address, there are even some examples. For others, you just change the number in the Script from 60 to 59, 58, 57, and so on. And with each and every address, it gets harder and harder, as the size of the required signature gets smaller and smaller. Does it mean, that these coins are now more valuable than others, because you need more Proof of Work to handle them?

Bitcoin Testnet v4 hit 1 satoshi today. 

POW is the distribution as well, which I think is more valuable than the movement.

The problem is that the moment you attach a value to testnet coins they stop being test-net coins for testing and it defeats their purpose. That means tbtc can never become an altcoin, it can however become a shitcoin aka a cryptocurrency without any utility that has no reason to exist but may be traded on some teeny tiny exchanges with virtually no volume that give them a value.

No it can't happen in Bitcoin. The reason why testnet can be reset is because it is "test"net! Nobody cares about it and it realistically has no value, even if it is traded. If someone creates a "reset" of mainnet, they'll be creating a shitcoin like many shitcoins that already exist from bcash to all the other ones that died back in 2018 and most people don't even remember their names any longer.

Which is why testnet consensus rules should contain things like demurrage, to prevent that.

I think people incorrectly call these events as "reset", while all that is done in practice, is just leaving the old network as it is, and starting a new one. The true "reset" would happen, when testnet4 would reuse the Genesis Block from testnet3, then produce a new Genesis Block for testnet4 on top of it, at height one, and then mine a new chain, where the total chainwork would be bigger, than it was in testnet3, so all nodes would throw away the old chain, just by following the old rules. Then, you could really call it "reset", if all old nodes would automatically switch from testnet3 to testnet4, just by following the strongest chain.

Edit: Well, currently we have testnet3, testnet4, signet, regtest, and who knows what else. Probably, if Bitcoin developers would release testnet5, testnet6, and so on, then it could make test networks weaker, when they will be splitted (in the same way as altcoins can make Bitcoin weaker, by splitting hashrate between independent chains, instead of uniting it). But still, I wonder, if "divide and conquer" is a good strategy after all, and if it won't put Bitcoin wizards in a position of altcoin makers instead, when people will keep trading every test network, which they released.

That would be another problem. The more we change testnet rules the less it is going to be a Bitcoin test network as it becomes more and more different.

On top of that, any changes in consensus rules would be an extra burden on developers to maintain as the code would start becoming more bloated. The reward for this additional work is small which can't justify it.

Why?  This is not logical and not a reality.


Yes it can, the name "Bitcoin" is just a name.  It could get really confusing really fast if those forks were done with a little muscle.  Usually the "Winner" has more value and that carries the label.  (presently v3 testnet is trading for at least 10x v4, so it is arguable that v3 Testnet remains as Testnet and v4 is just an altcoin fork as you described.  Testnet world is obviously same same, but different.)

Also, it does have value because someone provided POW for the distribution.  If that doesn't have value, then Bitcoin doesn't either and they are both as worthless as stupid buyers.  (lots of people think this (https://x.com/lopp/status/1914700478203498693), I *mostly* do not, but it is worth testing and fun.  I think giving Billionaires a way to make money off drugs and stuff without being directly connected has a huge value.)

This, their burden far exceeds an exchange.  The exchange gets paid for doing real work.  Devs mostly just hope Jack Dorsy or someone will give them a little handout for the developers nibbling their billionaire nuts.

Earned coins & a sustainable business plan > Begging "scientist" money

Oppressing a free market is never a good thing.  A thriving Testnet is very beneficial for Bitcoin.  Period.

Bitcoin maybe trading at a million dollars a coin today if Testnet wasn't so taboo over the years.  I will NEVER be convinced that introducing a user to Bitcoin Testnet to prepare them for Bitcoin is 1000x better than any confusing ETH/BASE/BNB or any other worthless token like that.  (those are more worthless than Testnet IMO)




I also responded to the Bitcoin dev mailing list that linked this post (garlonicon (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2552182) I think posted it), but mailing list is sensored to the fifth degree... my post won't be available for the public and I didn't fucking save a copy to post here... sigh.

Pretty much just telling the poster they didn't need "historic data" to see how Testnet v4 was going to work out, I laid out the exact plan publically, and I'm *easy* to get a hold of to ask any questions.

The time for this stupid mindset to be a thing of the past.  The ideology of Testnet having no value deserves to be tested.

The way I see it is that the test-network is there to be used by:
- newcomers, like people who have no idea how to use a bitcoin wallet (maybe even overwhelmed and scared of it) and want to become familiar with this new form of money without risking anything.
- developers who want to quickly test their code without spending "real" money.
For that, tbtc should remain free and easy to acquire.

The harder it gets to acquire tbtc (high difficulty, low block subsidy, costing >0), the farther it will get from that objective.

So for example if the only way to acquire tbtc were to buy it, then next time I see a newbie in the tech support board confused and overwhelmed about how to sign transactions, push to then network, maybe try a custom script, etc. I wouldn't be able to tell them to use testnet to try things out without losing money.

Well... not exactly. Bitcoin is a concept that is defined by a set of rules that everyone has agreed on. If any of them change (like someone resetting the whole chain), everyone has to agree on that change again otherwise it won't be Bitcoin.

That's right, but it is the paradox that exists in testnet. You have to spend money to mine it because of its PoW even if the difficulty is 1, but it can't have value because that defeats the purpose.

I agree but lets not forget in the decentralized world nobody can even truly oppress anything if there are enough people behind it.
The best example is testnet v3 itself. Despite miniscule block subsidy, despite all the attacks including 51% attacks, despite introduction of v4, etc. it is still around and alive.

Bottom line is that it is more accurate to say "testnet shouldn't have a value" instead of "it doesn't have a value".

I agree with this for the most part.

We support a faucet that gives out 0.005 TBTC every ten minutes, the issue is that some Developers (as seen in this thread in fact) want 4000 TBTC... which is insane and in my eyes they deserve to spend something at that point.  

Developers trade time, skills and knowledge for coins.  Normal people and noobs trade money, offer services/goods, or beg for coins.  This is the case everywhere and in every blockchain I've encountered.  The barrier of entry to mining Testnet isn't just mining... you've got to be savvy enough to set up your own pool and all types of stuff at the moment.  These are NOT common skills for 99.9% of people I've seen using Testnet.

The issue with faucets not having sustainable business plans is that get drained into businesses that do.  This happened with v3 sadly, the community of faucets with nonbusinessmen running them got smoked entirely by us.  Not on purpose either, there is just a natural flow of power in these networks.

We still have hundreds of v3 available for free, despite miner scarcity, because we've supplemented the magical block rewards (which was drained due to a bug exploited that sat "hidden" for 10ish years, lol) with real business plans.  It was only due to Testnet v3 being used that the blockstorm bug was used maliciously... so using a network helped expose a fairly brutal code error, who would have guessed!


Why shouldn't it?  Because it limits access to Testnet?  I think we've proven that giving people the option to sell & purchase actually increases people's availability to free Testnet coins... considering I think the AltQuick exchanges faucet (https://altquick.com/faucet/) is the only faucet that still provides v3 Testnet stably.

Developers should focus on doing their job, not releasing buggy shit (which v4 obviously has "problems", releasing v5 with flat out POW is the correct route IMO) and mind their own business when it comes to free markets.  Hot opinion, I know.

Mailing list is not a forum. If you posted it right now, and you expect to see your post immediately, then you will be disappointed. Posts on mailing list are manually accepted by moderators. Waiting a day or two, to see your post published, is normal.

You probably have it somewhere in your mailbox, in "Sent" folder, or in a similar place. And if your post was not a spam, and will be rejected for some reason, then I guess you will get some response from some moderator.

Note that it is a mailing list. Which means, that every time, when you see any message on Google Groups, then it is sent to all subscribers. So, it cannot be automated, because it would be quickly abused. Things are accepted manually, just because every message is sent to N people, so this way of communication has N*M complexity (if you have 10 messages, sent to 100 people, then you have 1,000 real e-mails, that are actually sent, from a real e-mail address; if you allow auto-sending every post, it could be instantly flooded).

To sum up: mailing lists are for patient people, who can accept delays counted in days. It is not a forum. If you want to talk with developers in a faster way, then use faster ways of communication, like IRC, Delving Bitcoin, GitHub comments, or whatever makes sense in a given context.

Mining is not "free". It never was. Even CPU mining require some effort.

If you start mining on top of the Genesis Block, and produce a chain with a higher chainwork, than you can see here and now, and that chain would be UTXO-equivalent to the current one, then would you call it "an attack" or not? Because chain reorganization is the only way of removing anything from the blockchain. And if for example SHA-256 will be fully broken, then compressing the chain during re-hashing may be worth considering. Imagine bringing down the size of data handled by Initial Blockchain Download from over 600 GB into something like 20 GB in a backward-compatible way.

Time will tell, but I would shit if a post that bold was included in a email list of such fragile folks with mindsets that don't reflect reality.

This isn't my first rodeo, I paid Bitcoin to be a Wiki contributor (same spam issue, but different and more scammy method created by Mark Karpelès).  Years down the road, Midnightmagic thinks giving away free Bitcoins is impossible. I disagreed, and I was stripped of my Wiki editing privileges + no refund.  All the faucets and free services were then removed.



God, you would think this, but it is not.  https://support.google.com/groups/thread/157263248/can-i-view-emails-i-sent-out-from-google-group?hl=en (https://support.google.com/groups/thread/157263248/can-i-view-emails-i-sent-out-from-google-group?hl=en)


That'll be interesting.  I think it was sent on Wednesday.  I have faith that my message reached those it was intended for, regardless.

I suspect they won't have the decency for someone with such a different opinion than theirs.  I'm frequently wrong, though, so time will tell.

There's this dex that offers testnet ETH in exchange for real ETH and under the hood they used layerzero.
Last time I checked 0.001 real ETH gets you 12 Sepolia ETH and surprisingly there are tons of people buying it every minutes, the contract is pretty active.

I guess people are just desperate for test coin to be able to test projects and get those airdrops. but honestly it's just pure supply and demand taking effect in my opinion.
Can't lie I bought quite frequently as well, for testing purpose, it saves me the effort of claiming in nonsense faucet with all those captchas ;D.

Time is money.  I get it.

Fun fact:  ETH testnet is trading for over 10x compared to Bitcoin Testnet v4.

Prices today:

BTC V3: 0.3122 USD

BTC V4: 0.01226 USD

ETH Sepolia Testnet: 0.1397 USD


I acquired a few fun domains:  Testnet5.com & BitcoinTest.net

Someone has Testnet.com for sale with a minimum offer of $2,550,000 USD.  ::)

Bitcoin Testnet is causing havic through the Bitcoin eco system... This week the OP_Return debate is directly connected to enabling a startup (Citrea) to do business... guess what coin they are currently using?  Bitcoin Testnet 4 and you need 10 whole coins.  https://citrea.xyz/bridge (https://citrea.xyz/bridge)

How cute.

*People need to pay attention to Bitcoin Testnet because it is where the most extreme behaviors & actions can be found.*

In order to be most useful for testing, a testnet should copy the technical characteristics of the tested blockchain as much as possible, including the PoW scheme.

So, attaching a value to testnet tokens would mean that two blockchains would compete over the same hashing resources, but without any innovation that could possibly stem from that competition.

I don't see how this could do anything but harm these blockchains.

I fully agree with this.  Make the mining exactly the same as Bitcoin, so people can specifically test their stuff and then switch over to mainnet with confidence.


Bitcoin Testnet is the place to be innovative first.  This will flow into Bitcoin after it is tested.  This is obviously a good thing.

They may compete with each other in terms of short-term value, but that isn't possible to prevent when there is a demand for a product (Bitcoin Testnet) that people think will help test and increase the value of something they love (Bitcoin).  People are normally really excited about whatever product they are testing as well, examples: OPNet.org (http://OPNet.org), Yala.org (http://Yala.org), citrea.xyz (http://citrea.xyz), and more.

Bitcoin is seen (at the moment) as having long-term value.  Bitcoin Testnet does not need to attempt to give that vibe.  This can easily be achieved with firm "abandonment" dates.  This puts Bitcoin Testnet in a different field of Altcoins that has never been attempted... it'll work I think.


It's kinda too fucking bad tbh... people are free to do what they want with this type of cryptocurrency by design.  You know... permissionless and boardless...

Sure, but at the point where people assign value to tokens from a testnet, they create the need for another testnet facilitating innovation that relates to technical aspects and not token scarcity. At this point, the previous testnet is just another, maximally boring altcoin. So, people might apply their freedom to something more meaningful. But yes, no one is in the position to forbid others to do something that doesn't make sense...

Eh, I'm not sure if this statement is as true as I once thought it was.

Here are some 2012 Testnet v3 coins moving around this month... wild.

https://mempool.space/testnet/tx/54f917a658c25bd022c87461c877b43511a7a9e012a0c2e6ef95da9aa34d4204

The market seems fairly robust though and recovers each time it is slapped due to the demand behind it.... very strange.

Bitcoin Testnet 4 is finally starting to even out network-wise with the miners, it seems.  Big blocks and they are still catching confirmations, even with people battling for Dif 1 blocks.

Core just needs to switch over the defaults and change the mining (next BTC version for default and Jan 2026 for full POW mining)... then I think she is off to the Testing races.

Someone somewhere is proud of this transaction lol:  https://mempool.space/testnet4/block/00000000000000012aa852da42b27dbcc17f9d6d3ade012bb48176ea7432d971

'At this point, the previous testnet is just another, maximally boring altcoin.'

It has a use-case