Bitcoin Forum

Is it possible to do so, or has the code to be updated for this action of merged mining these 3?

This is a good question.

Well the code of any chain has to be modified to support merged mining.

If you use a master - slave model like BTC does then the "master" chain doesn't need to be modified.  Pools supporting the merged mining will need to be modified to generate the proper coinbase transactions.

so master/slave model:

LTC = BTC, then TBX- and FBX-code has to be modified.

Sounds good to me... if only I were a programmer...

What the point to do merged mining? It's profanity of the idea.

Come again?

It's better for *coins to have an algorithm that requires as much resources as possible (relatively to difficulty). If you mine TBX and FBX for free then it's like having 0 difficulty.

Still not following, sorry.

Why is it better?  Also why would you consider the cost of mining TBX/FBX as "free".  Why not consider TBX & FBX as half the cost and LTC "free"?

Difficulty to solve a block depends on difficulty of "parent" coins. Children (TBX and FBX) mining is a side-effect. It would be equal to 70 coins reward per block if we counted that each block of TBX and FBX worth 10 LTC (for example). So why bother of "children" coins? Just switch from 50 LTC to 70 LTC reward! It's like multiplying all new coins to 1.4 coefficient ( =70/50 ). According to the design there must be only 84000000 LTC, but merged mining extends this limit to almost infinity (u can add more and more merged currencies). That's why I'm saying that merged mining breaks initial idea.

First, your understanding of merged mining is flawed.  Each chains solves its own blocks at its own difficulty.

Second the number of LTC isn't increased.  It is like saying mining more copper increases the amount of gold in the world.  Just because a single mine can extract both gold and copper doesn't somehow increase the gold supply.

If mining LTC gives u free TBX and FBX then difficulty of these currencies does not matter.

I know that limit of LTC is not changed. I just assumed that 1 block reward of TBX/FBX equals to 20% of LTC to simplify calculations.

Mining LTC doesn't give you free TBX/FBX.  Like I said your understanding of merged mining is flawed.  Each chain is mined at its own difficulty.  It is possible that TBX ends up more popular and has a higher difficulty.

You aren't mining X and getting Y free.  You are taking a hash and checking that single hash against 2+ chains.  Still even if TBX/FBS were "free".  Who cares?  What is the problem?  They aren't free to an attacker who now has to contend with much higher difficulty.

Well, perhaps my understanding is realy flawed. I'll read more about it.

You can't really compare cryptocurrencies to real atoms with a real intrinsic value. But anyway, if one can extract both copper and gold from the same mining effort, it does increase the rate at which both are mined, because one can suppose that people mining only gold will likely switch to mining both at once, and same for people mining only copper.

If everyone switches to merged mining, all those merged-mined chains will end up with the same diff. So it is really like mining 50 LTC + x TBX + y FBX from the same effort as it would have been to mine just 50 LTC or just x TBX or just y FBX. So it is really like mining one of them and getting the other 2 free.

That's splitting the value of a chain into 3. Of course, maybe you think a LTC being worth 0.002 BTC is too much and that making that 0.0006 would be better?
That's also reviving dead currencies for the profit of the few people who stashed a lot of them (not to mention the 7M TBX premine) and will thus find them gaining some value again.
Finally, that's opening the road to merged-mining of, say, 50 meaningless cryptocurrencies (if we merged-mine 3 currencies, why not add some other new ones to the party?). BTC is already not getting much of a merchant adoption, I'm not sure any merchant would bother dealing with 50 different and weak cryptocurrencies, they already most often don't bother with several real currencies...

From the number of people actually mining TBX and FBX at the moment, I'm not sure the diff would really increase much. Also, did it ever occur to you that this virtual attacker could do merged attacking, too?
I like how we see so often the same technique as politicians use: spray fear to justify anything. "Booo, beware of the naughty attackers, we should add trusted nodes to check-in every other block." Reminds you of something?

That's splitting the value of a chain into 3. Of course, maybe you think a LTC being worth 0.002 BTC is too much and that making that 0.0006 would be better?
That's also reviving dead currencies for the profit of the few people who stashed a lot of them (not to mention the 7M TBX premine) and will thus find them gaining some value again.
Finally, that's opening the road to merged-mining of, say, 50 meaningless cryptocurrencies (if we merged-mine 3 currencies, why not add some other new ones to the party?). BTC is already not getting much of a merchant adoption, I'm not sure any merchant would bother dealing with 50 different and weak cryptocurrencies, they already most often don't bother with several real currencies...[/quote]

So why even mine LTC then?  Like you said BTC alone has a massive uphill battle and it far more developed with far more support than any alt chain.

From the number of people actually mining TBX and FBX at the moment, I'm not sure the diff would really increase much. Also, did it ever occur to you that this virtual attacker could do merged attacking, too?[/quote]

Of course attacker would merge mine but increased difficulty would make any such attack futile.  You do understand this was the reason for merge mining NMC to begin with.

For the record I don't think merge mining alt-coins which aren't used for anything other than mining and speculated will have any significant good I also don't think it will have any significant harm either. 


For the record I own no alt-coins so I have nothing to gain or lose.  Fear is often used for control (war on terra, secure nodes, etc).  Merge mining doesn't give anyone control so your comparison falls flat.

Because it seems to be the only credible CPU chain at the moment. Clearly it has a lower priority to me than BTC mining (e.g., when there was still the Catalyst bug, I gave one full CPU core to each of my GPUs), but when the CPU isn't doing anything else, well, why not?

As I said, "from the number of people actually mining TBX and FBX at the moment, I'm not sure the diff would really increase much." Sure, the difficulty for TBX and FBX would increase a lot, but what matters is LTC.

I'm sorry, did I mention anything about control? Control isn't the only possible objective of manipulation by fear. Giving some value to some 7M premined stash, on the other hand, could be one.

In effect merge mining (just in hardware not software).  All the issues you expressed about merge mining applies to any alt coins.  The supply of LTC indirectly affects the effective supply of BTC.  

Just seems funny you believe too many coins is bad but 1 more = great.  Just a matter of perspective I guess.

Kinda the same argument for merged mining.  If I can mine 2 chains using same hash why not mine 2 chains instead of 1 or the other. What else am I going to use that invalid LTC hash for right?  Why waste it, why not see if it solves another chain's block.

Maybe by a few fractions of a percent of a percent, yes. Although I'm not sure people who use a CPU to mine LTC would use this CPU to mine BTC if no CPU chain was available.

I definitely don't think that 1 more = great. But since it's there I jump on the boat "just in case". I have no plan to ever accept any other ccurrency than BTC as a mean of payment, though.

Sure, if it's implemented I'll use it (unless there's no decent pool to do so like is the case for BTC and NMC). But this will likely be harmful to LTC because it will obviously dilute it's value. There's a bit of the same problem with NMC diluting BTC's value, but because BTC's lead is very clear it's not too much of an issue. I'm not sure LTC's lead is that clear over TBX and FBX. But I guess we'll see, if merged mining happens to get implemented...

I don't think so.  What's your reasoning on this?

Not sure... it just seems obvious, actually. Same global value for 3 currencies, requiring 3 clients, 3 balances to handle, etc. It's a bit as if your car ran on 2 different fuels, in 2 separate fuel tanks (that you could refuel at the same time, though, as in merged mining), and to turn right (like, to buy from merchant 1) you need to use fuel A but to turn left (like, to buy from merchant 2) you need to use fuel B. This doesn't look that terrible, but still it feels like added complexity with no added value.

Your analogy would indicate that you don't understand how merged mining works.

Here's a better analogy: You need to take a document downtown to your lawyer, so you drive down and give it to him. But you remembered you also had to take a second document to him as well, so you bring it along with the first one. The fact that you brought the second document as well does not affect the first document's value, does not affect the first document getting to were it needed to go, nor does it affect the cost of getting the first document there.

Here's a very simplified explanation of how mining works. It glosses over a lot of things, but should help you understand:

1. Your computer does some calculations and produces a string of letters and numbers known as a "hash"
2. Your computer sends this to your mining pool.
3. The mining pool checks to see if the hash you sent "solves" a Bitcoin block.  If so, you earn some Bitcoins, if not you earn nothing.
4. Repeat.

Now, with merged mining, just modify step #3 and after checking if you hash solves a Bitcoin block, also check if it solves a Namecoin block.  You have nothing to lose because you already did the work to generate the hash.  If your hash solves a Namecoin block then you get some Namecoins for it.  But that in no way shape or form affects Bitcoin.

Ok, I forgot to mention in my analogy that when I fill my 2 fuel tanks, I only pay to fill the first one while the second one if free. Please, stop assuming that all people criticizing merged mining don't understand how it works. It prevents you from getting the bigger picture, ie leaving aside the technical details to start thinking about what the PRACTICAL impact could be.

The practical impact is, if you generate one coin A AND one coin B instead of generating only one coin A OR one coin B (from the same effort), assuming that the global value you are generating is the same because it's a function of the cost to generate it (that seems like a fair assumption, although I'm aware it's not certain and probably not 100% accurate either), then the value of coin A and the value of coin B are likely to be averaged, ie to tend toward (original value of A + original value of B)/2. That's not a decrease yet, but when we add to this the fact that mining becomes, say, twice as difficult on average (in the case where there was an even mining power for A and B), the result of mining is (original value of A + original value of B)/2/2*2 (the last multiplier is because we now mine 2 coins instead of one)=
- the same as before, if coin A and coin B had the same value/diff ratio at the beginning,
- or lower for someone who was mining the coin with the best value/diff ratio
- or higher for someone who was mining the lowest value/diff ratio
So, the only winners in the process are those who mined the coin with a lower value/diff ratio, aka probably just a few gamblers, or a few people who didn't do the math.

Again, I'm not saying merged mining would directly decrease the global generated value. Just that it will split it over several ccurencies, rendering it less PRACTICAL to use, which in turn has a chance to actually decrease the generated value (because not practical = not wanted).
For BTC vs NMC, it seems like it didn't occur (yet, at least) because BTC has so much more support behind it (I don't mean customer support there ;D, just users and even merchants) that the coin value was indeed unlikely get averaged. For LTC vs TBX/FBX, which all have like zero merchants, well, I wouldn't be so sure. Since the only ccurrencies/users that can really benefit from merged mining are those with sub-average value/diff ratios, well, you can guess who would make a good deal (and who wouldn't) by merging the mining for LTC-TBX-FBX.
Of course, this is a very over-simplistic economical model, but that's the risk. If I'm already on the best ccurrency, I have no reason to want it to be merged with junk ccurencies. But if it does get merged, of course my best option then is to follow the move and merged-mine.

Mining coins in any chain (regardless of the economic cost to you) increases not decreases the value of all the coins in that chain, because you are increasing the security of the chain by mining.

Ok, I see where we have different views then: you assume that the value is all in the ultimate protection against this overrated 50%+1 attack, while I assume the value is mainly in the use/demand for the currency (which would in turn likely increase mining rate and thus security, +/- proportionally to the interest of actually performing the attack).
I'd just like to point out that the mining power in TBX and FBX is marginal compared to the one of LTC, so unfortunately merged mining wouldn't increase LTC's security a lot.

So what you're trying to say is that if I'm mining BTC, and then I decide to do merged mining with Namecoins, I'm getting "free" Namecoins, thus lowering the value of name coins?

It's not a matter of your personal choice, it's a matter of what is done on the global scale. But as I explained, the coin values would tend to get averaged, so merged-mining BTC and NMC would rather decrease the value of BTC and increase the value of NMC. Although as I explained too the popularity difference was so huge to begin with (and the merged mining so marginally supported - ie notably not by the biggest BTC pool) that this effect remained negligible. Probably when the difference is that huge at the beginning we could even get the opposite effect: the weakest currency collapsing because most of the miners just sell it as they mine it to convert it into the other coin.
But anyway, the value from mining both didn't raise above the previous value of mining only BTC... except maybe if you consider the fact that the global hashing power diminished quite considerably since merged mining was introduced (which goes against the argument of merged mining = more hashing power).

Please explain why you think this would be true.

Cf post #25 above: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55378.msg660413#msg660413
Even though actually we can have pretty much every combination such as (original value of A + original value of B) remains unchanged, it seems more likely that we'll reach one of the extreme, ie either both tending to the same value (the average) or one seriously dominating the other. It's not like fiat currencies, where every currency has a captive user base (the people who live in the currency's country), here people can pick whichever currency they want. So we're more likely to reach an equilibrium such as 50-50 or 0-100 than some other random combination such as (population of country 1 - population of country 2).

But anyway, we're starting with different (and even somewhat opposing) hypotheses so it's not surprising we come to different conclusions. And those are just theories and the only way to be sure is to actually implement the mayhem. I'm focusing on BTC anyway, so if you happen to screw LTC this way, well, be it... Maybe LTC will win by 100-0, after all ;)

I read post #25.  You're basing what you're saying on the assumption that the cost of production dictates the value.  I believe that to be incorrect in this (unique) situation.  In my opinion, value is determined by market factors, namely supply and demand.  Now, a low or non-existent cost of production would normally cause supply to increase dramatically, reducing value.  The only problem here is that the supply of Bitcoins/Namecoins/Litecoins, etc is pre-determined in the total limit of supply and in the rate of production (difficulty changes keep the rate of production fairly static).  Given this, cheap or free production will not cause a large increase in supply, since the supply is controlled by other factors, thus the value won't change.

Think of it this way-- It doesn't matter if there is merged mining or not-- the same number of coins will be created on schedule whether they are created via merged mining or not.

Precisely, supply and demand. In the case of merged mining we are supplying people with coins that they don't want. What will they do? Either exchange them all against coins they do want ("100-0" case), or if that new "unwanted" coin isn't too bad they might just adopt it and balance the demand they'd have only over one coin between the two of them (50-50 case).

Indeed I think I've been a bit inaccurate: a more accurate statement is that the global value people get from mining both coins during the same time remains the same. Still that doesn't change the part about:
- the same as before, if coin A and coin B had the same value/diff ratio at the beginning,
- or lower for someone who was mining the coin with the best value/diff ratio
- or higher for someone who was mining the lowest value/diff ratio
I have to admit this is giving me a headache now, maybe because it's getting late there ^^ Anyway, as I said, I don't care that much about LTC and I can't prevent someone from implementing merged mining, in which case it would be more profitable to merged mine than not to do it (which is why merged mining can't really fail to be a success in terms of adoption).

I guess we kind of agree and kind of disagree.  The bottom line is that X coins will be produced in Y amount of time and nothing can change this, thus since production doesn't change, neither will price/value.

You know what, let's do this merged mining thing and see what happens... Who knows, maybe we'll even become rich  ;D

Sounds good. 

PS. It was fun debating with you.