Bitcoin Forum

Just recently, the head of Great Wall Motor spoke about a possible crisis in the automotive industry similar to the situation with Evergrande.
And one of the “triggers” of the new crisis could be BYD.
The reasons are reminiscent of the problems in the construction sector (Evergrande) - huge overproduction and the inability to fulfill sales plans outside China, huge subsidies from the state budget, accumulation of debts and unsold cars, while costs remain constant.

Of course, BYD representatives were quick to respond, saying that “everything is actually fine, we will exceed our plans, we are capturing markets, and our competitors are doing very badly...”
But, as they say, “there's no smoke without fire.” It is enough to listen to the response of BYD representatives and double-check their “figures” to immediately notice manipulation, such as with Toyota's debt indicators. According to BYD representatives, this figure is $374 billion. You can find this figure, but if you dig deeper, you will find that it is one of the estimates based on one of the methodologies. At the same time, BYD chose the most “convenient figures” without showing its own figures based on the same methodology. Let me remind you that Toyota is one of the best-selling car brands in the world, and without huge subsidies from the state.

The bottom line is that state-subsidized companies that are ramping up production, as practice has shown, are running into the problem of not being able to sell their products. At the same time, huge amounts of state money keep pouring in because it's really expensive to support such a manufacturer (or, more accurately, a group of manufacturers), but without state support, these companies would just collapse from overproduction.

My question to the esteemed community is: how likely do you think it is that the Chinese automotive industry could experience a situation similar to that in the construction market? It is also worth considering the “tariff war” with both the US and the EU, as it is these markets (with high purchasing power) that can consume “surplus overproduction” so that the Chinese automotive industry can continue to stay afloat.

This is just FUD because BYD has been on fire in recent years. I have heard this conspiracy theory about illegal state subsidies, and many people keep repeating it without providing any data at all. This means that they just picked up this information online, without verifying it and without having an original source. A news article without real data is not a source. Also, did you know that most western companies also receive state subsidies in one form or another? Without the data, we can't tell how much of an impact it can have and because of that it is just a conspiracy theory.

https://d2xqcz296oofyv.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/byd-sales-by-year-2025.webp

https://roadgenius.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/BYD-total-revenue-each-year-1024x576.jpg

It looks like it is gonna collapse any day now.  ::)

I agree, your opinion is valid. Even if we ignore the news, as we saw with Evergrande, everything was fine there not so long ago, with huge progress, billions in revenue, and prospects for decades to come... and then one day it all collapsed! And the market was VERY much in demand, certainly more in demand than cars in terms of value to people.
And let's be honest — the Chinese auto industry has real problems that it has so far managed to hide or contain:
- overproduction
- very strong dependence on state support
- limited demand within China
- subsidies can only be offset by high prices, which only the Western market can provide, never the market of third world countries.

All companies rely on credits. You have to few banking connections and your company is in danger.
Just look at the crypto scene, on bank served as go between and once it dropped out the companies relying on it collapsed too.

Socialism is calling for revolution of the working class. Those are the lines of the communist manifesto


In modern times it has kind of mellowed out. 
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/death-capitalism-schumpeters-prognosis-coming-true
Still the subsidies of the economy is present in a devalued currency, or even a better credit line.
When seeing the chinese road and belt initiative you see that not all is nice and peachy.

Subsidies are a tool often used to support and compensate domestic producers and products within the market when there is competition. But the Chinese government's “subsidies” are a form of unfair competition aimed at capturing foreign markets. And there is a huge difference. The EU has understood this perfectly well, realizing that it is not Chinese high-tech cars that are cheap, but that the Chinese government is simply driving local European manufacturers out of their own market. Without a real takeover of sales markets, we may well see “Evergrande Auto” in the near future.

Could be but just seems like FUD to me. People always seem to want to try & predict when the next big crash will come & what will be the cause of it. The truth is, if or when there is a big depression it will be a result of many things, all together that cause such a financial disaster. Fiat currencies are being printed out of existence, rates are high, people are struggling to pay bills. There is a crash coming, be prepared.

China has problems from its demographics, thats a long term decline they are trying to outrun by development of the country and things like AI perhaps will help replace the missing working population; losses of the 1 child policy over decades.
  BYD is successful mostly but car companies generally seem to have problems with their profitability vs development, this is true in many countries.    I'm more convinced of a wider story rather then just the 1 company as a problem

It is a large problem for a lot of car dealers all over the world.

More people want something affordable that works well. So high profit margin cars do not have the demand they once had.

Many just want a decent car that does not break and does not use a lot of fuel.

That in itself is not a problem. The industry have grown fat. They carry an administrative overload, there is lower management, middle, the one above middle and upper and 30 others here an there. When you take twitter as a blueprint, you just shed 75% of their administration and it still works great.    
Plus lower the price accordingly.

Its like a web-presence. The digital make up is little but to make it known, cost.

With what I see myself, they're able to beat Tesla in terms of sales for how many years, 1 or 2? They're now dominating the EV industry and if they say that they're fine, they should be fine. The good thing about this company is that, they're also being supported by its own people in China. They have a huge population, and they're proving the worth of their product. I'm not sure if I'll have one in the future but it looks stylish, but I still prefer to have a gas/diesel engine car. They are making the cars quite cheaper but loaded with tech.

The main concerning matter is a long payment delay to suppliers, the delay near around 275 days although their cash pile remained strong!
Whatever, I actually don't think BYD would be the next Evergrande in any way. To me, it is not just a FUD, it is more of well funded sprint. I would say the aggressive and subsidized widening in CHI auto just creates a vulnerability, nothing else. Also, tariffs bite could be another concern, as hidden debt could create an evergrande moment situation.

If I had to choose an electric car, I'd rather go for BYD than Tesla.
I've seen BYD cars tested and they're pretty well made, which cannot be said about Tesla which was one of the brands that people have the most complaints about in the first year of use.
Also, Teslas are famous for their bad quality checks with huge gaps between the panels.

If someone is really into electric cars (which I am not) you might want to check out Zeekr.


As for BYD vs non-electric brands, I'd rather buy a Toyota or a Honda hybrid than a fully electric car, especially from China. Here in the EU everybody knows how to fix a gasoline car, or a hybrid and parts are easy to get. You get an issue with your BYD and 90% of mechanics will tell you to go to authorized service which will most likely be out of town. For instance I've run a quick search for a BYD service and the closest one is 250km away. Imagine going there for a routine checkup every year. That's half a day wasted to get your car serviced.

I've seen surge of people driving BYD these days, I don't think it will be the next evergrande, the company itself also expands to countries so fast. Maybe had to do with the fact that it's state subsidized company so they got stack of cash to do that.
The rapid expansion might be concerning and can possibly cause collapse, but so far I see nothing that can cause worry from their side.

As long as there's no real proof that indicate BYD to be the new evergrande, I won't put too much thoughts about it. Instead, it'd be great if the competition like tesla can reduce their price.

You compare it to Evergrande, which is fair enough, but what really was the fallout that they suffered? Besides getting liquidated and a bunch of local Chinese companies having to accept losses/going bankrupt, the tsunami outside of China appeared as barely a ripple. In fact it was probably positive for other countries as Evergrande had to sell off some overseas assets they'd acquired in the good times. Lots of Chinese investors got burned but the CCP used their usual repression tactics to contain that.

BYD has to navigate delicately and is somewhat at the whims of government policy. They have an advantage of being near the source of many rare metals required for manufacturing but they're increasingly being targeted by Europe/USA with tariffs for dumping and flooding the market, which offsets certain advantages. There are still many other places in the world that will benefit from cheaper electric cars and don't feel the need to protect against Chinese car manufacturers.

With the amount of money the Chinese government has been pulling out of US treasuries, it's possible that some of the debt can be paid off with that.

I don't think such cases will happen again, because unlike their real estate sector, the Chinese automotive sector gets government support to expand internationally, meaning they get government subsidies to export globally, and they can target developing countries and some European markets to market their products. The Chinese government also seems to have learned from their mistakes in the Evergrande case, so if they see weak local brands, they will intervene and encourage them to merge with stronger brands, that way they can avoid bigger problems. So even though the auto industry in China is facing serious structural risks, it is still under the full control of the Chinese government, and I think it is a normal domestic problem, not a very critical issue..

You can't compare these two situations at all. It is as if saying everything was fine with Bitconnect until it wasn't, that is why the same thing may happen with Bitcoin.  ???

Claims, without any single real source. Such a thing is what you would call propaganda. If you can bring up verifiable data for those claims, do it and let's discuss it. To make matters worse, limited demand is a global problem for all western car manufacturers. So how is this a point against BYD, why single out this company? Besides, such arguments don't make sense. Look how people that have a predetermined stance argue.

• BYD has strong demand in China, most of its revenue is in China. Bad for some reasons.
• BYD has limited demand in China, most of its revenue is global. Also bad because of reasons.

If you have predetermined positions, no argument will satisfy you and you will continue to find rationalizations to justify your wrong position.

This argument could be made very simple, the product is good or not.   I dont really see an oversupply situation in a new market, there are fair reasons for electric car as a sector to expand parabolically beyond just the green situation.  However that does rely on the quality being there with this company and maybe it is or isnt.
  
In contrast wasnt the Evergrande problem due to diabolical corruption in the housing market also it was just reliant on one nation for its market for that product to justify the debt also the company itself printed false figures.

There are certain similarities between those 2 companies.
Evergrande over spent their capital and defaulted thus failed to to deliver, the over-spending became possible due to local governments who where able to create a bubble. The system was geared that local governments to make more in order to get more. Not uncommon in the west to have similar set ups. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58579833

Exactly, evergrande disaster was caused by combination of excessive debt and liquidity crisis, now on top of that we add the slowing economic caused by covid-19 pandemic.
Although BYD might seem to be doing the same exact thing but the company itself as I've observed got strong cash flow.
The market is entirely different as well, housing is always risky in time of economic crisis like pandemic but automotive industry is different.

The talks of immediate collapse is a FUD. But there are good signs that the fall of BYD is nearing. But not just due to subsidies.
Subsidies are applicable to EVs sold inside China only while BYD had been selling good number of EVs outside of China as well.
BYD mostly had been a battery company and they built a car around that battery. This vertical integration of components made the prices of BYD cars cheaper and they sold cars with small profit margins. But the battery dominance of BYD seems to be fading as the home rival CATL captures the battery market. The products form CATL are so cheap and good that there are news of newer BYD cars having CATL battery instead of BYD's own. This means BYD is turning into just the car manufacturer which is not what they excel for. In coming years, we could see CATL take over the battery market and companies that makes the best bodies with good overall software would win the EV race.

Where do you see here the immediate collaps being announced?

You know that feeling when the house is too quiet, and you know, you just know, that something is going on? That’s the current “everything is fine!” energy of BYD and the Chinese automobile world. If you’ve ever watched a magician, you know the trick works because your eyes are being led somewhere comfortable, while the real action is out of sight. The trick, in this case, is a river of state money and a mountain of unsold cars, which are silently accumulating in the background

Evergrande is THE case study. Same ingredients: easy money, inflated figures, and a belief that the future will always be greater than the past. The warehouses of BYD are starting to look less like a sales pipeline, but rather a time bomb, slowly ticking away under the layers of planned targets and market capturing

But let’s talk people, not numbers. Since, after all, markets are not only graphs, they are belief systems. A layoff crisis is something that the Chinese government cannot afford (imagine 570,000 workers out on the street). Thus, they balance between moral hazard and bubble-blowing, hoping that no one will yell out the emperor has no clothes before they can find the next escape door

On tariffs: yes, that is the door being shut. Should the US/EU lock out Chinese EVs, then all that overproduction comes right back to bite them. Consider a dam breaking, not a something slow and gradual. And these new miracle exports? Often nothing more than moving the pile between warehouses, with trade press releases to disguise it

The “official” BYD debt is the stuff for the tourists, peek under the hood, and you’ll see a tangled mess of IOUs, supplier arm-twisting, and accounting acrobatics worthy of the 2008 Wall Street Olympics

So, will China’s car bubble pop like the construction one? Not tomorrow, maybe not this year. But every time a state tries to replace real demand with wishful thinking and “just one more round of subsidies", the music eventually stops. Only question: Who’s left holding the bag when it does?

Anyone else feel a chill, or is that just the aircon working overtime in BYD’s unsold car lots?

I don't have enough verified data to prove the claims about BYD car sales declining or BYD having financial difficulties.
Even if BYD gets in a difficult situation, they will simply cut the production quantities and sell less. The government must also reduce the subsidies to the Chinese automotive sector. Government subsidies must be a temporary measure. No industry must continue to exist on government subsidies for decades.
What happened to Evergrande? This company was mentioned all over the place in the last 2 or 3 years, but I haven't heard anything about Evergrande in the last few months. Did the Chinese government bail out this corporation?

Alright this has my interest, unlike most of the useless replies to this thread. Can you share some links about this if you have any? I mean I can find some myself, but I want to read what you have read. I'm interested also in how the tech is better as battery technology will be one of the new frontiers of innovation once real breakthroughs start happening. Further there is a huge difference between peaking, falling and collapsing. Surely if things are true as you portray them, BYD will lose an advantage and its growth will be stunted or it could even completely stop. However, the people that are calling out a collapse at all are terribly simple.

Maybe your time is better spent actually looking up where BYD is selling a lot of cars. I've seen this brand of cars in every single country that I have traveled to in recent years, and in some I have seen them very often. I guess all of that was my imagination and they are just trading them between their warehouses.  :D

Overproduction is the main problem facing the Chinese economy as a whole, and the automotive industry in particular. An export-oriented economy cannot survive without comfortable sales markets. The domestic market is oversaturated, and the European market is closing due to tariffs...

"Huge discounts are no longer helping: car stocks are growing, BYD is cutting shifts and slowing down production
The BYD brand has sold 1,151,919 cars in China since the beginning of the year
China's largest car manufacturer BYD is slowing down production in China due to growing stocks.
In May 2025, BYD announced big discounts on 22 models. Prices were reduced to 53,000 yuan ($7,390). This move was motivated by growing car inventories at dealers. Despite the aggressive pricing strategy, inventories continued to grow. As a result, BYD slowed down production in China.
Insiders told Reuters that BYD had cut night shifts at some of its factories across China. The automaker also postponed plans to add new production lines. These measures reduced the output of at least four factories by a third."

That is just not true. BYD could compete with European over-managed and overpriced trash cars even with tariffs of 500% which are never going to happen as China will retaliate. European manufacturers losing access to China hurts them more than chinese manufacturers losing access to Europe.

Adjusting production to lower demand is a sign of collapse if we are talking about BYD, but a sign of proper management if we are talking about a western company?  ::)

If there's a tax involved and there's a big price difference between similar cars, people naturally go for the cheaper option, that's a fact. We're also closely watching BYD's growth here. In my country, there are heavy taxes on cars and people prefer to buy electric cars because the tax difference is significant. To buy a gasoline car, we have to pay 4-5 times the prices in Europe. For electric cars, the difference is smaller. Of course, cars are still expensive compared to Europe or elsewhere, but this huge tax gap strongly influences people's choices.

If the US also imposes difficulties on foreign brands in terms of taxes, their sales could drop significantly. But this wouldn't hurt foreign car brands too much because there are plenty of big markets worldwide. Nobody is dependent solely on US buyers. Last year BYD sold 4.2 million cars worldwide and it's clear from the figures that they don't have to go in the US market.

As for the fall of it? I think it will be related to the minerals that are just limited for the battery creation. But that might take time as China has got a lot of friends if it's about these natural resources needed in producing these BYD and other chinese brand of cars. Tariffs will certainly impact that a lot but they don't care about for the likes of US, they won't just go into their market unless there's a strong demand there. I am seeing this brand of car in the road everyday and it's got a strong sales here in the Philippines. But if God blesses me with some extra money I am not yet sure if this is the kind of car that I'll purchase.

China is the leader in many minerals that are needed in battery creation and leader in their processing, I am sure they are better positioned that any other country. You can observe their power when they threaten to limit rare metal exports, the west gets quite spooked.

Not entirely though, many of those minerals are imported and China build up the processing factories.
Most of those refinement factories could not exist in the 1st world.

Yes really. Unless you are talking about some individual things that are more common somewhere else like lithium.

China has many friends, including Indonesia, which consistently provides resources for battery manufacturing. Nickel is a key ingredient in battery manufacturing, and by 2022, 85% of our nickel exports were going to China, partly to meet battery manufacturing needs.

This may not only apply to BYD, but also to other companies like Wuling, Xpeng, Chery, and others. They manufacture a wide range of products. So I believe China has a significant opportunity in the EV industry, offering both lower prices and better performance. By the way, Tesla's sales have declined since BYD entered the global market.

Countries don't have friends.
You might need a little insight what was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1998_riots_of_Indonesia

I agree, that they're in a better position than most of the countries who are also in the industry. They've got allies and not just from their country they get their minerals but I think also in many African countries where they've injected their debt trap. And this is also one of the reasons why there is tension between China and Taiwan. Taiwan is known for semi conductors and this tension has made it even stronger because of the EV market.

So aside from the other African countries, they also have Indonesia on their back. They're really taking over the market and this is why Uncle Sam is mad at them. They're taking over the EV industry and not just that even in smartphones too provided all of the resources needed for manufacturing.

I understand the history quite well, but the main point is that it was a tragedy in the past and has nothing to do with what we are talking about here, even if it is offensive, it is over, so what do you want to convey?

People don't forget that easily.
Why is Ukraine fighting and not giving in?
Due to a pogrom called holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

From the outside people ask; but why are they not just getting to understand each other.
After those happenings people carry grudges.

Do you know why German people are popular in northern Africa? Not for their wokeness,

Governments might make peace, their people less so.

Excuse me, but you are simply trying to pass off your desired state of affairs as reality. But everyone knows, and it's easy to verify, that a significant part of the Chinese economy survives only thanks to huge government subsidies. And the automotive industry is one of the key recipients of subsidies. And you are making all your subsequent conclusions based on deliberately or unintentionally distorted information. But once we return to reality, the problems will turn out to be very real. The European auto industry can survive without the Chinese market. The Chinese auto industry cannot survive without the European and other markets in developed countries! The state cannot constantly subsidize something that does not sell and will then slowly rot away in lots for unsold cars.

Plus, don't forget the real price war between BYD and other Chinese automakers. In order to sell off their stocks and keep the production cycle going, BYD cut the prices of its cars by up to 34% in May this year! Are you talking about the high margins on their cars? :)

It's a communist nation, they help with subsidies, because they tax based on that. To be fair, that is a method that could never work anyways. Not that American liberal methods are any better, "let it be" showed how people were getting screwed too, you pay taxes too but get nothing in return. Maybe a big military? Lol.

Whenever there is a "look how bad west is" or "look how bad east is" topic, I laugh, because you both do not realize how bad both of you are. In this BYD case, of course it will not be growing like this at all, it will slow down, they can't go construction level, if they do, they will bankrupt too. They just need to find that sweet spot where they can sell, and they produce accordingly .If they keep producing more, that would be bad, and they will bankrupt.

BYD cars have recently entered the European market, it's only a few years now that they entered the Greek market and it's quite booming if you ask me, I keep stumbling upon quite a few the past few months, for a company that's that new in the market. BYD is a huge manufacturer, and if I'm not mistaken, it's the leading manufacturer in EV vehicles. So far, BYD is delivering what consumers are requesting, affordable, stylish cars, rendering EV's a lot more approachable in the general public. We're yet to see their reliability, as they're quite new in the market, this will only be demonstrated in a few years.

The Chinese automotive industry is likely to enter a financial squeeze cycle of overcapacity, lack of demand, the kind that the construction industry is experiencing, but there are differences between the two sectors. Cars can be sold faster, brand and product strategy can change easily, but it is not easy to demolish a building and build another one. In car production, it is possible to move from one model to another.

Also, the Chinese government sees electric vehicles as strategic to gain technology leadership. The construction sector was a sector that managed domestic demand and did not offer a chance to compete. Perhaps the vehicles produced may lack competition for now, but if EV’s become widespread in the future, China will get its share.

No, China is even leading the global electric vehicle industry thanks to its diverse models and competitive prices, from low to high segments, which can meet all user needs.

According to the IEA, by 2024, total electric vehicle sales by Chinese automakers reach more than 11 million vehicles, accounting for 55% of the global market share. Meanwhile, revenue from US companies sold only 1.9 million vehicles and accounted for 10% of the global market.

China is outperforming all because its diversity and scale of production allow they to reach a wider range of customers rather than just focusing on the upper class like US companies are pursuing.

https://iili.io/Fjjd5Cb.md.png
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2025/executive-summary

It's the revenue that matters in this case, not the number of cars sold. Because BYD obviously and as a strategy, sells for very cheap. For example, they have a model that is like 16-17k dollars here, whereas tesla is 40k dollars, so they need basically twice as many sales as Tesla to make the same revenue at the very least.

And they are doing much worse when it  comes to revenue. They are selling 55% of the cars, but how much of the revenue are they making? I can tell you that a lot less. That is literally why they are getting subsidies from the government, Chinese party keeps them alive, by paying them to stay alive. Not that they are doing terrible, of course they are making money, I just mean, they are not run like any other company, they are like one nations whole government backed company, so it makes sense how they can survive.

Wrong, revenue is important in every business, not just the electric vehicle market.

You are also wrong in saying that Tesla's revenue is higher than BYD's or that BYD needs to sell twice as many cars to have the same revenue as Tesla. In 2024, BYD's revenue is $102 billion, up more than 29% from 2023. Meanwhile, Tesla's revenue is $97 billion, down 1,1% from 2023. BYD is doing very well, not as bad as you think.

Yes, BYD receives support from the Chinese government. But what about Tesla? They also get a lot of incentives from the US government but that will soon end because with Trump's 'One Big Beautiful Bill', the US government will cuts off funding to Tesla. That would make things more difficult for Tesla in the future, and that's why Musk turned his back on Trump.

https://iili.io/FO2sfGj.md.png
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/25/ev-giant-byd-outpaces-tesla-with-annual-sales-of-over-100-billion.html

While I hate Elon Musk and even dislike tesla cars, I have to say, there are few different parts about this that I would argue against. First of all, we talked about cars sold, and we are seeing even in these numbers, Tesla seems only a small part behind, how could tesla sell so fewer cars, and be nearly exactly the same?

Secondly, that 102 number comes from China, and I have a suspicion about whatever comes out of China, I do not believe they sold that many cars, I also do not believe they made that much revenue, I do not have any proof, but I am sure they do not have a proof neither, they are just writing numbers, who can argue against it? And more importantly, China literally covers the losses for BYD whenever they made it, whereas Tesla only gets subsidies in the form of tax cuts, they did not receive free money.

In Brazil BYD is starting to grow very strongly. The only reason why they are not the top 1 right now is that people still don't fully trust eletric cars because they need to travel between states and Brazil is huge, so recharging can be a pain. As more charging stations are installed, I think we are ready for a huge surprise from BYD.

When comparing a BYD Dolphin Mini which is the Seagul in China, they cost R$ 110k and offer a lot of tech and quality components. For the same price you have a Kwid which is a car of plastic without any extras. Big difference :(

A few months ago I saw one or two dolphin mini every week, now I see at least 5 per day.

1. That's really true—it's very foolish to measure only quantitative sales indicators. You need to understand what business is and how it works, what revenue, profit, margin, and so on are... And as soon as you start to understand these “nuances” and are honest with yourself, taking all the nuances into account, BYD's “superiority” begins to melt away before your eyes.
2. The second indicator of problems at BYD is some kind of fairy-tale marketing programs, such as lifetime warranties and other solutions that, from the point of view of car reliability, do not correspond to reality (more on this later), but create the illusion of “reliability” and “customer care.” Simply put, no one would push a technologically reliable, competitive car onto the market, as the costs of providing such services are very high.
3. Quality. Everything looks pretty good in a new car. BYD is well represented in Ukraine, with several dealers. But while everything is fine at the point of sale, it's not so good in use. According to the owners I've spoken to, the cars can be summed up as “Yes, relatively inexpensive, not bad, but only for a short period of time.” I understand that no one buys a car these days with the intention of passing it on to their grandchildren :) I am a car owner myself and have changed several cars in my life. Now I have two cars that have proven their reliability: a Toyota RAV4 and a Ford Escape. Before buying my second car, I was considering purchasing an “electric car from China.” Based on my analysis of the market and manufacturers, I decided not to buy a BYD.
But when you realize that after 2-3 years you start having systemic problems, you are forced to look for a replacement. Provided that the car you have is not liquid on the secondary market and has lost a huge part of its value. The question is, would I buy one? No. I don't want my car to have a “lifetime warranty” and the same lifetime repair cycle when I can't use it...

As we can see, BYD's goal is to sell as many cars as possible at ANY PRICE in order to avoid collapsing from overproduction and stay afloat, because a giant company has huge maintenance costs, and at a certain point, even a “caring government” won't be able to help it...

Contrary to you, I quite like Elon and Tesla, but I prefer practicality. ;) ;)

If you have no evidence and are just making statements based on your thoughts and opinions, it is difficult for us to discuss further. Because I bet even if all that data were true, you still wouldn't want to believe it and would find a way to deny it. Like bitcoin maximalists, they will reject anything related to altcoins regardless of right or wrong.

I don't know how accurate that number is but as far as I know Cnbc is a reputable business news channel and is headquartered in the United States. I don't think they would post unverified nonsense or post news that could harm their country.

By the way, have you seen the news about Tesla's financial report? Their sales continued to decline in the second quarter of this year.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/TSLA-Q2-2025-Update.pdf
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-stock-slides-after-earnings-miss-musk-warns-of-few-rough-quarters-221407333.html

Brazilian customers don't need a service network, like in the developed world.
People in the 3rd World are a different bread. 
   

What do you mean that we don't need a service network?

Many people don't care for service, compare customer behavior patterns from the EU to Latin America ;)

You still didn't answer. What do you mean with service?

I have friends with BYD. One has a Seal and another has a Byd Dolphin Plus, they get all the service they need. That's why I'm confused, you must be talking about something else?

Service stations, what is hard to understand?
taller de servicio. 

You should probably be aware that different cultures and countries call things differently.

I clearly said I'm from Brazil, we do not speak spanish here. :)

Now, there is no such thing as "service stations" or "taller de servicio" here in the 3rd world. There are "oficinas" or car workshops, where they check and fix your car. Is this what you are talking about? There are plenty, actually two close ones from BYD in my city which is small compared to a big city like Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro. BYD cars get three years of free revisions on them, so they are very happy with all of it.

But I agree they need more all over the place to get people confident. Time will tell, but I believe on their expansion.

Hybrid is the best way to drive if you drive because you have to,drive.

50-55 Miles per gallon

Tank of gas lets me drive 600 miles.

If I want to play with the car I attempt to coast and brake as much as I can trying to do 60 miles per gallon.

I'd agree with that. Hybrid is a good option but I haven't drived one because all of the cars that I've driven were ICE type. Fully EV gives the range anxiety and I don't want to feel that based on what I've read with the feed back of the owners. What I don't like with EV is that, it takes a while before charging. While with ICE type, if you're in a hurry, you just go to the gas station and pump it. But of course if I've got some chance to drive all types, I'd be happy to.

No doubt about Japan cars that are hybrid with those brands. You'll never go wrong with Toyota and a Honda. I think as for preference we have no question to these Japan made cars but if someone who's got some spare money and would like to go with BYD, it also depends on where is the closest service center and if in your case if it's a 250km drive away, I'll not buy yet but maybe when a dealer and service center opens close to you, I guess that's one reason for you to get it.

In the EU people are used to have services stations, from their brand of car.
Not having a network is not that good.

I've never been to China, so I ignore if BYD has service stations there.
Usually in the 3rd world the car is sold and way later come the Car's brand Workshops. 

In Brazil we have service statations from BYD since day one, with their branding and their own workers. Like I said there are two big ones on my city. In Sao Paulo and Rio there might be dozens, same for other cities.

So not a problem as far as I know.

When you are hearing "all is good" from China, be careful. I will never defend Tesla, because they do suck as well, and I definitely support that Teslas are horrible. But we need to look at this as something that would be very risky to handle, so nothing complicated, so do not focus on how BYD is "great" because you will realize that it's just the same shitbox. That has to be the thing we could consider things changing.

That should be very important for making decisions, whatever comes out of China, could be a lie, maybe not, but there is always risk, so always be careful. For me personally, Tesla and BYD are both shitty, and real cars are usually made by others and not even electric. Like Toyota always makes great cars.

While I agree BYD isn't getting "superior" cut of the market, I also disagree they are a nobody, they are still strong competition. In fact, I would say in the EV world, the only two that matters is Tesla and BYD at the moment.

With BRICS becoming important, I can see BYD selling more as well. China has this thing for about 20 years now where "Chinese product" is a stigma, and I rather not drive a Chinese car, in case it may break down. I had many things which were "made in China" and I didn't like it, and broke down after a while, I won't want my car to be that way. To be fair, my car is hybrid, and French, and it sucks, so it would definitely be better if I got BYD or Tesla, either would have been better than my horrible junk :D.

This is a catch 22 however.

Why is it that these days you got cars like the Honda Civic which was once a very reliable brand that has more reliability issues than previously?

Well to make a car more fuel efficient you need to add complicated bits such as CVT transmission, turbo chargers, direct injection, start/stop technology, etc. While this does make the car more fuel efficient, it makes it less reliable because there are more parts, more complicated mechanical setup, more strain on the smaller engines/starter motor. And it becomes less reliable.

This is one reason why many mechanics welcome electric vehicles. They are efficient because they use electricity instead of gas and they are reliable because there are less complicated parts. A electrical motor is easier to work on than a combustion engine.

You just need to maintain it better.
Preventive maintenance is what makes things last longer. If you wait till your car calls you to go to a workshop it'll be expensive. Most likely your car calls out when there is little cash available so people do just the most necessary stuff. 

I don't agree with you. While these do contribute to the problem, the main source of the problem is that the car is now a digital machine with many low quality and complicated parts. All the electronic sensors, the useless entertainment system with its touch screen and many other things are what cause the worst car nightmares. These days you have stories where cars halt randomly, and deep diagnostics does not find anything wrong with it and it even resumes working. This episode may not repeat but for others it may repeat at random times. For example it stops working 1 day after 6 months, no warning lights, no codes, nothing and then it works again normally the day after. This is because they are over-engineering something that should have been made as mechanical as possible.

French cars are known to be turds, so no amount of maintenance can change this fact.

You don't know decent mechanics, it seems.

The topic was started not because we should discuss if BYD is big or not, but to discuss if they are actually making a profit and doing a good job, or could it be like the real estate crash China had. We need to see if production is big enough, or is it actually getting sold enough to make it continue.

Subsidies is not a problem, all nations have subsidies for their companies who bring in a ton of foreign money to their nation, that doesn't make it a bad one. What makes it bad, is that subsidies are the only thing keeping it alive, but is it the case here?

We have no idea how strong the finances of this company is, clear that they are selling on razor thin margins, even they they sell way more than what Tesla does, they make as much as tesla, which shows they profit very low per car. So that means, while they are not in danger now, they might be in danger if anything goes wrong.

What are you trying to say? What will happen to them and will it put them in danger?

Because in business there are always risks and even a small mistake can cost them dearly, not only BYD but Tesla is no exception.

The reason BYD sells cars at lower profit margins is because of their business strategy. They have abundant human resources, cheaper raw materials, cheaper manufacturing costs and technology to produce cheaper cars. That means they are doing very well and their strategy is absolutely correct and appropriate for their situation.

In business, net profit is the most important thing and they are doing very well, we need to admit that. Do not discuss other issues as it is not our expertise and we do not know the internal situation of their company.

There is zero and I mean absolutely zero indication, data or proof to suggest that something is very wrong with BYD. This thread is worse than those altcoin speculation threads. People shit regularly on China but most of the things that they own are partially or fully built through the Chinese supply or production chains. Most goods on Amazon are Chinese rebrands too. Ironic, right?

The company has expanded rapidly, especially here in Brazil. It's clear that electric vehicles are becoming a top purchasing option, even though we don't have a developed infrastructure for electric vehicles that's sufficient to support this growth. Whether it will become an Evergrande, I don't know, but high growth without proper planning could be detrimental. I hope not, as it would wreak havoc on my country's economy, as the company is investing heavily here…

BYD going down is wishful thinking from people who act like 6 year old fanboys of western car manufacturers that produce overpriced cars. Imagine what kind of person you have to be to cheer lead for a company that doesn't give a fuck about you, tries to scam you at every point with for example overpriced parts, just because you own a car of this brand? The brainwashing goes very deep with cars.

Hybrid obviously more efficient in the fuel consumption instead of non hybrid car. however the maintenance cost is pretty high. In my country, hybrid also gets double tax as it used two engins (electric and gasoline). But still remain best choice for someone who always have long distance travel instead of use EV.

How do those batteries hold up?
In Venezuela some of the EV went up in flames.
Batteries don't like heat.

What countries does something so stupid? I would not get a hybrid for the reasons that you mention.

Batteries don't like heat or cold. This occasionally happens to every EV manufacturer though.

So far, I'm not aware of any similar cases here in Brazil. However, I believe this is rare worldwide. It's worrying that it does happen, but it shouldn't be considered the norm. The same goes for smartphone batteries, for example. There have been reported cases of explosions, and it's a risk to consider. Nowadays, there are "flame-resistant batteries" that aim to prevent this danger.

Have a look and Imagine fire-workers trying to extinguish your car with you in it with water.

https://youtube.com/shorts/_88jYEahhYQ?si=XJUk3eiqv87BVj9j