Bitcoin Forum

I am one of the top losers of coins on Gox.  That is life.  There is more where they came from and the show will go on.

I am not mad at Gox.  I am not angry with Mark.  What I'm disappointed with is a self-centered, fraudulent corrupt system that completely turned their back on a semi-retarded kid that had a billion dollars on a memory stick because they were too blind and busy looting the standard system to even blink an eye on a phenomenon that will change mankind forever.

Wall Street, regulators, auditors, accountants, banks, associations, police, schools and centers of academia all failed miserably with every single one of their mamtras, mission statements and purpose for their existence.  I read their propoganda about how they are all here to help and then I think about monkey-man Mark begging for someone to help him while his "video game" grows out of control into a billion dollar enterprise!  These institutions and infrastructure used to be in place to foster capital, create a future, protect ideas and spur imagination and creativity.

Now unfortunately they round up capital for companies like Zynga or other non revnue generating businesses that provide little to nothing for humanity, or they play around with fractions of a second in time trying to circumvent or game the system.  All to provide for a gambling mecha that is now out of the reach of any regulator or policing of any kind.  Every institution has been corrupted directly or indirectly through its partnerships and practices.  Stalwarts like Arthur Anderson, AIG, Citigroup, on and on and on and on.

Here we are with one of the most profound creations of mankind since we began to mine gold 5,000 years ago.  It is really nothing short of a spectacular moment in human history.  Unfortunately few have noticed.  Instead the phenomenon is being regarded as digital music was in he 80's, or the Internet in the 90's, or better yet - not too far off  the mark - Black's in the 50's.  All terrible changes in direction that were vilified and attacked and ended up changing the course of the entire human race!

Mark its not your fault buddy.  It is everyone around you for who is to blame.  You can not be mad at someone who is incompetent, you can only be mad at yourself for thinking that person was anything but incompetent.  However for the higher levels of institutions that turned their back, they can not be afforded the designation of ignorance - they were anything but!  They were just to busy being corrupt and greedy.

I don't get your point.  "Its not Mark's fault, its the worlds fault?" huh?

Edit: Mark was a criminal in France.
You are being a bit too kind perhaps?

I too understand what you are saying, however considering 75% of most of the people that run the institutions I speak of are also criminals or at the very least morally flawed, Mark is just another fella and far from a malicious parasite like a regard almost everyday in capital markets.  Everyone trying to outwit one another for the betterment of their respective firm or agenda with no actual goal what-so-ever.  Sad.

Proof please. Newb account claims to have one of the top amounts of coins on GOX.

 ::)

-I lost 40 coins on gox, quite a sum for myself, I'm in my early 20's, it was my life savings, lesson learned

-It's not the job of everyone else to watch every transaction going in and out of every company and constantly checking solvency

-that is very far off the mark, horrible comparison, but Ill grant the other ones, maybe "jazz" or "the blues" would be more apt, but no one is getting hosed in the streets over bitcoin

-it is quite literally, almost entirely his fault, him going to jail won't recover my coins, but he deserves it

What makes you think that we'll believe whatever you post here? I have also lost some of my coins with Gox. And I believe that Karpeles should go to jail for that.

i can confirm it. before mtgox went out of business, i as well was one of the top account hodler and as such i know mr wolfofbitcoin very well.

Bravo to the OP, though I've heard the MtGox story only in a superficial way and not any real details...but I'm sorry for everyone who got ripped off or lost money.

That said, how did you lose it? I had a similar question about the FBI seizing someone's btc and asked how, exactly, it was seized.

I've got 0btc but am on the verge (got a help a girl out thread in the help and support section for anyone who likes 20 questions and loves espousing advice even more)...but all I hear about btc is how secure it is and the only way someone can get your money is if they have your private key...and I'd imagine if someone is smart enough to know the code tech version of bitcoin and run a big popular site, they'd also know the risk factor and wouldn't have lost anything.

So what's the real story on this before I put any money in it - is the private key the only possible way that someone can take your money out from under you? I know if you lose it, it's gone...but are we talking "don't give someone your password to anything" level of common sense or private key = precious gold that is easily swiped regardless of a key or password?

I've read in various places the warning to "never store your btc on the exchange" or in the wallet on a site, or only put it there when you do a transaction...but where is it otherwise? If you keep it stored offline is it still subject to valuation? If you have it stored online and the value drops to 0 is the btc GONE - like it shrinks til it's history, or is the value itself just bottomed out? Why is it different if it's offline?

Clearly I'm missing something...hope you can clarify this blank spot and how, exactly, you can lose btc or how it's offline as opposed to on.

ETA - like this example in the ad spot on another thread:

"Your bitcoin is secured in a way that is physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter a majority of miners, no matter what." -- gmaxwell

If this is true, how would the feds seize any of it or and how could they "liquidate" it anyway unless it's via an exchange or via the network? Or how would someone lose other peoples money? What was the exception that invalidates that quote and claim?

Exchanges usually use their own wallet, so once you give it to them it is like handing them your cash, the "balance" displayed on their site is what they owe you, a voucher slip, not your coins

the feds probably seized DPR's stash because they found a copy of his wallet/key or something, so they have control over the coins and can use them as they please, they will probably liquidate them over several exchanges and a period of time

if you store them "offline" and the value drops to 0 USD, you still have x amount of bitcoins, just like if the value drops from 100$ to 90$ you dont lose 1 out of every 10 coins you own, valuation does NOT depend on exchanges, 1 bitcoin is 1 bitcoin and it is worth whatever somebody will take it for when you offer it for trade

it is better to store offline because a hacker getting past a websites security is a weak link in the chain, like when Target was hacked a few months ago for credit card info, the hacker stole the cards "private keys" off of a central location of storage with overcomable security

This statement doesn't make sense. Was there a club for gox high rollers? Lol.

Either way, OP misses the point that Gox wad /his/ fault, in part for leaving a balance in such a shady company. I mean, DANG.... There is a reason the term Goxed was a thing BEFORE their last goxing.

Well I have to say this is one of the most Libtarded threads ever.

I dont know who u are or what u do. Very few people here will praise you analysis, but in the long run u have written something epic. I wish bitcoin gets more people like u. Rock on \m/

I thought mtgox found most of those bitcoins. Wont they be refunded.

Thanks jr for the clarification. Would I be correct then in saying that the security protocols for online are more aimed at the risk factor of having some exchange holding them than an actual personal hacking risk on a general user's computer? In the same context as your Target example: always have good passwords for stuff you do online but with 3rd party sites dealing with your money, extra security is best. Common sense more than some immediate looming threat?

I don't really think he is semi-retarded.
For sure.

very nice offhanded consolation for Mark lol  ;D

For a minute I thought OP was talking about himself, then I realize he was just jealous of the multi-millionaire master-thief that is Mark K.

Ironic that he named himself "WolfofBitcoin" and admitted to being a "top loser" on Gox.

@OP:
Kid, a real wolf doesn't lose big. A real wolf eats naive, gullible little shits like you for breakfast. Trust me.

The original post makes no sense to me.

-B-

it is doing exactly what Bitcoin was designed to do.  fraud and corruption gets exposed rather quickly.  if mt gox was a big bank this would have gone on for years if not decades.  I cannot think of another financial system out there that has been tested like this in its infancy and so far I think it's doing a pretty good job.

Yes not too flattering of a handle in some regards! haha  My friends gave me that nickname as soon as the movie rolled out.  Not sure why, I've never done a qualude or stolen anyone's money, so go figure.  But it was funny and so sure I said, I'll just use that.

On the other side of the crypto-coin is the fact that I am a wolf, and losing those coins on Gox through complacency, to me is acceptable.  I mean seriously what am I going to do.  I knew I was had around January 20th.  I manage a fund in the real World, so to me it was just one of those freeze the markets at 3:15 and lose a million on Blackberry last June 27, 2013 kind of moments.  You move on.

I have many more BTC in reserve and I deserve everything I got for allowing a retarded kid hold on to millions of my dollars.  It is my fault for thinking he was something other than retarded.  I did not do my due diligence.  NO ONE DID!  And that is where the problem lies.

This is the gambling while u r investing in the tech world. FB investors never knew if Zuck is a retard or a sheer brilliance. But he ultimately beat Google's Orkut. Its about taking risk... nice to know that u have many more BTC in reserve :)

OP your anger is misdirected, Mark has a good percentage of your coins and regulators, governments and the finance industry don't owe you anything for allowing him to steal them from you. 

I know that's cold but everyone knows bitcoin doesn't have any form of deposit insurance.

I am glad you "Have many more BTC in reserve." 

Were you keeping the coins on Gox for trading purposes?  Most people saw some of the "red flags" if you will that there were problems.  I had a super small amount on there, like 0.2 and my husband kept nagging me to get that small amount off for months.  I finally moved them like two weeks before the site closed.  My husband also told his budddy at work that he really needed to get the coins off for several months and he even sent him fractions of coins to set up an account at Coinbase as a little pressure to do so.  But the guy never moved them (there were only like 15 coins but still a decent amount)  but the guy said, "They were worth more on Gox."  Worth more?  I guess his reasoning at the time was that the price on Gox was higher than the other exchanges.  But if you can't get the cash out of Gox it doesn't really matter what they are worth does it?  Oh well.

I hope you get some of your coins back regardless!  If you have a decent amount left then all should work out anyways.  Following Rpietila's SSS plan and it looks like we don't even need that many coins to be in a great position in a few years time. :)  That is my plan anyways.

lol

depends on what level the site holds your money, but yes, it is not a looming threat to always be fearful of, just understand that if you dont have the private key, then you dont really have your bitcoin, but if its a well established site your fine keeping small balances there you would want to spend

another example, making a wallet at blockchain.info, they both store your wallet and give you they private key backup in case they go down, it is an extra security weakness because a hacker can possibly get through the password wall, but blockchain doesnt have access to your coin, so they cant spend it and tell you they still have it like Gox did

if you are just getting into coin, DONT keep your full balance on a random site no matter how good a password you think of, start with blockchain.info or another trusted wallet interface that lets you keep your keys, add 2FA and keep a copy of your private key offline just in case

My first reaction was partly wrong.
I agree the higher levels of institutions are corrupt and doing horrible job, but how is that related to BTC and Gox?

1) "We" don't need or want them watching us.
2) It certainly is Mark's fault; Calling him "a semi-retarded kid" doesn't excuse him from being a cold-blooded criminal.

For being "a cold-blooded criminal", he doesn't look even the slightest bit in control of the situation. He looks much more like a guy who screwed up horribly, is trying everything to cover his ass, and hasn't been kicked out of his company (and possibly in jail) only because his government doesn't really know how to handle a financial disaster involving a virtual currency and doesn't have the technical know-how required to confirm or reject his tales about hackers and technical problems.

I would be much more likely to agree if Mark did not have a verified criminal past in France.

If he's a criminal, he's a very stupid one.

Running a currency exchange gives you plenty of opportunities to earn illicit profits without everyone ever noticing anything wrong (insider trading, fractional reserve, market manipulation, you can do pretty much everything you want when you're the one running the system); and let's not even talk about legal profits, which should have been quite high for the most widely known and used Bitcoin exchange.

Having everything blow up in your hands, facing hordes of angry customers running after you with torchs and pitchforks and resorting to ask the government for help... aren't exactly signs of a criminal genius at work.

 I don't understand why people are questioning what he's saying. You missed the point so far it's hilarious, did he ask for your opinion? NO! Only thing here was a stated opinion, not some request to the 12 year olds of the forum.

The big players in Gox could afford to lose a lot. It's the smaller traders who put in all their savings that got hit the worst. I hope people can recover something from gox eventually.

I get his point that supposedly "people" or companies did not rally around Mark to help him when his gaming company outgrew itself, but that is not really the case.  There were several intelligent people that approached Mark and offered him help as well as much needed advice but he was to foolish to take advantage of the help that was being offered to him.  He could have built a very stable and successful enterprise just by being a little humble.

We've learned three things.

- If we're not in control of our private keys we don't have bitcoins.
- We can't trust those with power, responsibility, or supposed expertise to protect us.
Thus,
- We alone must take responsibility for protecting our digital assets by controlling our private keys and using the free market protection tool of only doing business with the competent.

 

This is a forum where things get discussed.
Welcome....

How is it the fault of the rest of the financial services industry? That's like blaming Ford, Toyota and Honda for General Motors' running itself into the ground. If Karpeles had wanted outside help he could have hired it while he was raking in the BTC. If I were you, I'd be at least a little mad at Mark.

Ditto. I was just about to post the same when I saw yours

OP doesn't make sense.

Great quote worth repeating.

The main reason that neither law enforcement nor courts did anything about Mt. Gox until very recently was that nobody asked them to do anything. Nobody sued Mt. Gox when they stopped US dollar withdrawals last June. Nobody tried to put them into involuntary bankruptcy in Japan when they weren't paying their bills. Even when Mt. Gox filed for "civil rehabilitation", Mt. Gox was getting what they wanted until, finally, in mid-March, the guy behind "mtgoxrecovery.com" filed a petition with the Tokyo District Court alleging fraud and demonstrating that at least some of Mt. Gox's claims were false.

Then, suddenly, things stopped going Mt. Gox's way. The plan for quick entry to "civil rehabilitation", with creditors stalled and Karpeles still in charge of Mt. Gox, got postponed a month by the Tokyo court pending investigation. The Tokyo Metropolitan Police became involved.  Word of this made it to the US courts, and a US bankruptcy judge told Karpeles to show up in Dallas or not get US bankruptcy protection. (Since another US suit names Karpeles personally, losing bankruptcy protection is a big deal for him.)

Courts don't do anything until someone files suit. Then things happen.

What exactly do you mean by "the security protocols for online"?

When a web site asks you to send them your bitcoins, whether that is in return for a product/service or whether it is so that you can use those bitcoins on that web site (as is the case when the site is a currency exchange), you have irreversibly sent your coins to someone else, and now those coins are theirs. You are trusting them to carry out their part of the deal you struck, i.e. sending you the goods you bought, carrying out the service you paid for, or safely storing the coins for later use.

It is no different to you sending your coins to me and me promising to do something you want with them. The coins are no longer yours; all you have now is the promise from me to you.

Most of the time the site (or me) carries out the promise and everyone is happy.

Sometimes though, the site is broken into, or goes bankrupt and ceases operation. The coins are lost. The promises can't be carried out.

That is the risk of sending your coins (which you completely control as your property, and is therefore your responsibility to secure) to some third party where you no longer control them and they aren't actually your property any more, secured only by how diligent the third party is.

If no banks had insurance and no banks were backed by the government then it would be a similar risk there: you put all your USD in the bank, then bank says "oh sorry, we got ribbed, it's all gone". You're left wondering how they let that happen, who took it, was it an inside job? Even then, at least it is criminal and police would hopefully get involved to investigate.

In the real world, banks do have insurance and often are covered by financial regulations such that bank losses are covered by the government and customers don't need to worry about losing their own funds.

At the moment the bitcoin world is largely unregulated and the authorities don't see things like the MtGox bankruptcy as being a criminal matter. No police are investigating what happened to the bitcoins. People who lost funds in MtGox are left to organise their own civil prosecutions and investigation.

Keeping your access to some third party site secure is your responsibility and certainly if your computer is cracked into and credentials for bitcoin services are stolen from it then they may be used to take your coins off of that service. That does happen all the time.

But what we're talking about here is the breach of promise by the site themselves. As with MtGox, they shut down while holding large sums of customer funds. As has happened to quite a few other bitcoin services as well.

As for whether it is Karpeles's fault and whether he should suffer any consequences: in my own view you can't screw up that badly without there being some degree of negligence. I hope it is investigated fully to determine whether that level of negligence is criminal. He needs to suffer business consequences for his negligence and if it is proven criminal then he needs to suffer legal consequences as well. Anything less is just inviting operators of bitcoin services to run with the funds.

 :D my thoughts uhzackly