Bitcoin Forum

As you all are aware of recent Aurora coin that shot up to $100 with market cap almost $ 1.2 Billion.

That is almost 15% of Bitcoin Market Cap.

Of course as predicted, everyone sell it off and now it is worth $ 1.49 with market cap of $ 15 m.


In almost all exchanges, all alt coins are quoted by xxx/BTC.

Hence, for example, a person wish to sell Aurora Coin, he has to change to BTC via AUR/BTC and then BTC/US.

This has TWO Major implication.

Firstly, it will PUSH the price down as he would SELL it to the highest buyer.

Secondly, the alt coin will "eat into" the Bitcoin Market Cap.


I wish to call upon all exchanges to either change this exchange model to a specific value that doesn't involved Bitcoin and normal people don't buy into all these alt coins.

As you can see, by doing this, you are actually causing more harm to Bitcoin price indirectly.

Omg, are you so naive?

buy low, sell high.  Keep washing.

Learn to play

Dilution as a 'tragedy of the commons' is real, yes, but it's clear the system isn't going to collapse unless we see ten thousand more direct clones. Coins that really supersede Bitcoin, like Cryptonote, are a totally different matter, wouldn't you agree?

When people buy BTC (with cash) so they can be part of the alt coin "scene", then the alts are helping BTC.

BTC has already earned the reserve status, people buy BTC to invest in alt-coins.  So nothing is going to hurt BTC since using BTC in trades only leads to wider adoption of BTC.

I think it would just have the opposite effect -- more people buying into alt coins, the better off BTC is.  :D

Bitcoin has to beat out competition over time.  There is no getting around this and it doesn't have any impact (detrimental) on Bitcoin.  Learn how to business!

Lol, i feel sorry for you

This wasn't the actual market cap, because only a few coins were actually in circulation (before the 'air drop').

Aurora coin shot up to $100? I thought it was a scam coin

If bitcoin could be hurt and needed my help, I would not want it. People should be able to do as they want. Even if it is wasting their money.

I'm sure your message touched the hearts of everyone holding $100 AuroraCoins that were worth 0.04 cents when they were purchased.

"No", they said, "Becoming a millionaire isn't worth hurting tstang's feelings."

I don't like many alts but hey, they are allowed to exist. It is a free market.  You have to hope that dumb copy coins made over a weekend will die slow deaths while the few and great inventive and promising new alts prosper.

The cryptocoin game is far less rigged than 'real' fiat funny money markets, so it's nothing to feel to shitty about. I still have no idea why Doge got so popular but I don't begrudge that it did; it's a free market.

My paraphase of the OP. "Stop helping yourself, thinking for yourself, and be unified with and welded to the Titanic".

I agree Bitcoin has already reached reserve status for other coins so it should still be seen as a store of value for some time

+1

The easiest way to buy altcoins is to buy bitcoins first.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

It's a crypto currency war, some altcoins are struggling to be #1. There are many people who joined late, and they hate buying expensive (relative to altcoins) bitcoin, some can't afford to buy even 1 full bitcoin, that sure makes them feel like losers, and they buy into promising altcoins. No mercy and no prisoners in this war, sorry OP, there are no friends in profits or love.

For me, I just obtain altcoins by mining

Then sell them for bitcoins

That's 'indirectly' supporting bitcoin price  :D

Stop buying DVDs, youre hurting VHS.

The OP was actually saying: Stop buying VHS, you are hurting the sales of Blu-Ray (and your eyes).

If you guys dont know it does kinda hurt bitcoin, when u exchange btc into another coin your giving that coin the power.

Maybe thats one of the reason btc cant hold its value

Well, I have a question: If I choose to buy penny stocks instead of investing in Boeing or Costco, then does that hurt Costo's stocks because I'm not investing in them like I could be?

It's all a gamble. Buying bitcoin is a gamble. Buying litecoin is a gamble. Everyone is just trying to figure out the best odds of making a few bucks a year from now.

I used to think nearly the same..altcoins were simply a distraction as bitcoin is a protocol and layers will be built on top. Then I look at the marketcap disparity between litecoin (which will have no advantages when ASICs roll out) and Vertcoin (which is a superior #2 coin.)

If the world wants Altcoins then Vertcoin has a shit ton of upside to catch up to LTC.

BTC and VTC

The price is determined not by ASICs/no ASICs, but by supply/demand. Demand is driven by adoption, merchants, marketing/media efforts. With that in mind I don't see how Vertcoin has any advantage over other more popular/innovative altcoins. This resistance to ASICs feature is utterly useless in my opinion, as only miners care about that, and miners for the large part don't work to generate demand, on the contrary, they dump coin supply on the market. ASICs are even good because they add more hashrate to the network, making it more secure, but I wouldn't mention this factor as it's not very significant for price appreciation. The significant ones are typed in bold above.

Yes. That would hurt Costco's stocks. First of all you might have used the money to buy Costco stocks, if you didn't had your sights on the penny stock. Secondly, it adds to the demand of the penny-stock, at the same-time (relatively) reduces the demand for the Costco stock.

other coins in market is simple shit and don't have purpose except chance for exchange to bitcoins and exchange for fiat

It is true that alt coins are bad for the bitcoin market since they dilute the bitcoin market cap, but on the other hand it is important that everyone has freedom and that the freedom that people enjoy not be destroyed, that is one of the reasons bitcoin has been so successful it provided the freedom that other currencies did not provide.

I would argue that some alt coins provide a very specific purpose, and therefore have a reason to exist, for example namecoin provides dns services, some are asic resisteant, some can be mined only with a cpu, etc.

If it is true that some 500 or more alt coins are not needed and serve no useful purpose, my opinion is that at most 5 alt coins are needed, and to avoid dilution the bitcoin market at most you should hold 10% in alt coins, the rest in bitcoins.

critical properties of good alt coins:
open source
decentralized
deflationary

Some coins like darkcoin, or any anonymous coin might be needed for countries that are trying to crack down on bitcoin.
I think bitcoin should be  made fully anonymous, it would help it a lot capturing an even greater market from repressive countries.


coins that do not meet this 3 basic conditions are useless, but it is bad to dilute the market, so hold at least 90% in bitcoins.

Alts will continue to exist.
Welcome to the free market OP.

It's an open-source ecosystem, which means anybody can take bitcoin's code and try to improve on it. Or build another cryptocurrency from the ground up. In the end it's survival of the fittest, with only the strongest coins dominating the market. There's always going to be competition, and btc is still beta software, so don't think that it can't be overtaken.

Bold - I agree.. Has Litecoin gained much traction besides on the investment front? Not really.

Where do you think all the new GPU rigs will flock to once scrypt ASIC put them out of business? VTC. This leads to a community which support a decentralized network. ASICs lead to centralization and they put GPU miners, which make up most of the Alt coin communities, out of business.

If we simply follow your rules then there's no reason to venture outside of bitcoin.

There are definately reasons to venture outside of bitcoin, because venturing per se means taking a risk, and bitcoin is getting risky these days due to more centralized network than in its earlier days. As long as it's a calculated risk, I am all for it. Everyone has different calculations. I just don't see how VTC can overtake Litecoin. What can really overtake Litecoin is Dogecoin, there are still ponderings going on the technicals, perhaps they will change its algo to the same of VTC or even introduce more than one independant algo, same as Myriadcoin did, and that would ensure the largest network. Yes, this would hardfork Dogecoin, but their community is so condensed on reddit that it won't be a problem, there were 2-3 hardforks already and nobody seemed to mind that much, and that only affected the price for a day at most. The most flexible coin will win in my opinion, the one that can evolve quickly with the demands of users and miners.

bitcoin is hurt when morons sell out all they have because of fake news from china

All alt coin including LTC is only gambling chips.moron bay alt coin and hope price go up and earn more BTC.I mining alt coin now primecoin and every days change for BTC.moron by my primecoin which dont have any purpose.If you want gamble simple go in casino play roulette odd/even you have more chance for win and for 60 second you win or lose.no pain,no registration,confrimation and other shit.
look dogecoin last month moron bay doge for 0,00000280 what is today price.  when next month doge come to 0,00000001 i bay for 1-2 btc and hope somebody pump this shit coin 0,0000001
i am also moron because i mining BTC and waste energy and euro.
I now have monetary objective, return my 5000$  from mining equipment i bay ,and put in garbage my antminer S1.i don't want sale equipment for nobody because i don't want bed karma at my soul.

I personally think that if people bought alt coins that were bringing some new and needed to the table it would create real competition and a free market.  Instead we have this mess of useless alts that seems only useful for attracting newbies hoping to get rich quick and instead the get scammed even quicker.

No altcoin can succeed.

http://themisescircle.org/blog/2014/03/14/the-coming-demise-of-the-altcoins/

+1

I'm all for innovative alts, the problem is 90% of the ones coming out were never meant to be more than pump and dump scams. Sure, knowledgeable people may profit from it, but it makes the crypto scene look like a joke to many and it leaves newbies holding the bag which can lead to countless people being scared away.

Yea it is ok to buy some coins that actully bring something worthwhile to the community but hoping to get profit from a pump and dump dead horse just seems to be all to common.

Altcoins are a silly and harmless hobby for people who are fools and/or eccentric.  They will never threaten bitcoin, in the same way that whittling, dog breeding, and fencing do not threaten bitcoin.

What would happen if a new clothing store opened up and only accepted bitcoin?  That would help bitcoin, if only a tiny amount.  Altcoins are bought and sold using bitcoin, and thus are just another thing that people can spend their bitcoins on.

This point of view doesn't get the medal of honor for short-sightedness, for there are even more short-sighted views, but it certainly ranks high.

This lecture by Andreas Antonopoulos is really quite interesting in the Alt discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHrjs7VkSGU

Obviously you haven't thought about the features of some of these altcoins.. look at Nxt: 1300 times more energy efficient, 400 times more cost efficient because you don't have to fund all those miners to prevent a 51% attack, more secure, and instant transaction confirmations are possible in a proof of stake environment in a way a proof of work environment just can't match.

That´s not true... The alternative cryptocurrencies are good for the promotion of cryptocurrencies. A lot of people came here earing about an alternative cryptocurrencie and then they know about bitcoin. 

And 100% centrally controlled just another fiat. Satoshi solved the Byzantine General's problem of decentralized control with proof-of-work. Proof-of-stake undoes that and takes us back to fiat again.

No. Definitely not. 90% of these shitcoins are either pre-mined or just pump-and-dump types. Almost everyone who invests on them will lose money. How this is going to benefit the Bitcoin? By scaring away even more people?

Why is the goal to benefit Bitcoin, when it is controlled by 2 mining pools and most of the merchants soon be controlled by Peter Thiel's (i.e. Paypal's) Bitpay?

I say we need to destroy Bitcoin and replace it with something for us, not for them (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=564097.msg6278398#msg6278398).

99.% of coins out there are Bitclones.  They go to no attempt to hide it as often the wallets are reskins of the ancient Bitecoin wallet, if they couldn't change the wallet / UI then what else did they not change?  Then arguably other coins like Mastercoin are indirect clones as they're reliant on Bitcoin technology like the blockchain.

Using that criteria, the only unique second generation coins is maybe the NxT family but the NxT family is like the Sicilian Mafia, they keep on releasing these coins where a dozen people with sockpuppets own the vast majority of stake.

I agree. But not all altcoins will be like that.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

saw it yesterday - I think his argumentation is perfectly fine and economically sound.

There are innovations that are more cost effiecient (nxt and the guys around protoshares/bitshares), there are coins adding functionality to the bitcoin protocol like Mastercoin and Counterparty. There are coins trying to anonymize transfers like Darkcoin, Anoncoin or Zercoin/Zerocash. There will be ethereum for decentralization of contracts.

What Andreas is referring to is that even coins that look like complete clones to bitcoin, can also have value because people give them value by using them. Before that video I thought this does not make sense, because they do no really innovate - what makes them useless. Anyway I think I was wrong with that assumption, because you guys and me probably are completely underestimating sociological and cultural factors. You can basically make a political or cultural statement with the money you use NOW. Memes like Doge are nothing different than a cultural expression. This is on a metalevel a really interesting development.

Anyway does it hurt Bitcoin? In my opion not at all, Bitcoins function will probably be the one of the reserve currency. Ask yourself do you know how much a NXT or a litecoin or doge is worth in $, or do you know how much they are worth in btc ;). In my opion there can only be two events which stop bitcoin from being the reserve currency of the internet.

None of the mining pools are near the 51% mark. And it seems extremely unlikely that anyone will ever reach that mark. And Bitpay is not having an absolute monopoly. There are a lot of other Bitcoin payment processors as well.

That "shiticoins" inyect money into the Bitcoin (CryptoCurrencies) world.

If u stop new forum users from announcing new scam coins, u reduce this problem by 90%

Without Alternative CryptoCurrencies this forum is going to be provably dead.

I think buying altcoins directly hurts the BTC market cap, and therefore its value in USD.  As for the use of crypto in general, I think it benefits BTC.

Altcoin trading can give you much more profit than bitcoin, it's very attractive for traders

At a much higher risk: it's not a better investment than BTC.

I have already explained this. Shitcoins only take money away from Bitcoin. They do not inject money in to the Bitcoin sector. You can say that the entire Crypto sector is slightly gaining from the proliferance of shitcoins (that argument is also questionable to a very large extent). But for sure Bitcoins are not gaining anything from them.

Its possible to buy litecoin with dollars and also a few different alt coins.    Why wouldnt some of that cash be exchanged into bitcoin.   Im not sure I see your point.

If the competition is negative then I'd also disagree.  BTC can similarly compete back and add features and so gain from the added experience of other networks without having to personally test every idea itself    Depends how nimble the developers are I guess :D

OMG， are you new here? Do you know bit coin ? Sometimes naive!

[/quote]When people buy BTC (with cash) so they can be part of the alt coin "scene", then the alts are helping BTC.[/quote]
agree!

(facepalm)

BTC has already earned the reserve status, people buy BTC to invest in alt-coins. So nothing is going to hurt BTC since using BTC in trades only leads to wider adoption of BTC.

they should tie them with usd already, they are just sucking btc life

The real people who hurt bitcoin are hoarders who never spend it

Exactly the opposite is true: hoarders give the currency value.

A bit of a translation here is needed.

Op message : "stop pumping the alt coins you dumb fucks! Let s pump Bitcoin, i want my candy!"

it is a scam coin, look at the price now!

That statement is factually incorrect. People can't get these alt-coins by buying BTC. They can only purchase alt-coins by selling BTC. And that is the basic problem with the alt-coins.

I'm so glad none of you are in charge of monetary policy and didn't have control over the Bitcoin code when it first came out.

That's true)))

For every "sale" of BTC, there is a "purchase" of BTC.

Which edge of the supply/demand equilibrium that sale/purchase takes place on is important, but the fact that a transfer took place is not.

An infinite number of transfers could take place at equilibrium and the price would not change.

Unless, of coarse, you are sending satoshi to an address that is verifiable as inaccessible (burning), but that is neither "here nor there" as they say...

OP-
People are trading alt-coins as a means to acquire more BTC, dude.

If a currency is hoarded and seldom spent, is it still a currency?

The OPs entire argument is based on the assumption that the person selling the alt for btc will without a doubt so badly need to change btc to usd that they will sell to the "highest bidder." This is baseless. There is no reason to believe that someone would not just as likely keep the BTC to continue trading alts.

They had to obtain BTC, right? So I guess they need to buy BTC at asking price to enter the alt market. Demand drives prices so I fail to see how alts would hurt BTC in this regard. It would seem to be quite the opposite.

Some alts (from top 10 on coinmarketcap.com) are already available for purchase directly with fiat.

Yes, this is one area where alts could eat into the market, but the OP did not make this point. Also, despite the availability of several alts directly to fiat, all alts seem to rise and fall with BTC still. This may change, but for now it could as easily be argued that alts encourage more BTC from fiat purchases rather than hindering it. I don't see where alts are hurting BTC prices by eating into the market. It does not add up. Now one may be able to bring forth a reasonable argument that alts damage Bitcoin's image as a serious new technology, but even this is a double edged sword.

I spend Bitcoins that I have so I can't be called a hoarder I know that much.  If I see potential to make some profit in an alt coin that I believe in I don't see anything wrong with buying them.  I would more then likely use the extra funds to invest in more BTC down the line...

Well im earning money by playing the market. I still do not have Script miner but i plan to get few ( well at least one ) soon, when things at job get more calmer so I would have more time

I don't see why buying and selling something for BTC can hurt. Why would buying electronics from tigerdirect with BTC be good for BTC, but buying alt currencies from Cryptsy be bad for it?

There is argument that retailers are also bearish for BTC.    Mostly as they are not reusing that BTC for anything, so they pay taxes, wages, produce and profits out in USD.
Seems like a one way transaction, if they at least paid for advertising in BTC that would be something, maybe theres a gap for some daring agency to enter.   Im not sure anything BTC can rival google ads just yet but that would be a big deal as advertising is the first currency of the internet for micro transactions, all those 'free sites' are really relying on that backbone first and BTC is a long way behind still

Yes; the more it is hoarded, the more valuable it will be as a currency. Without hoarders, there is no demand, and therefore no value, to it as a currency.

Cash >> BTC (Buying BTC supports the price)
BTC >> Alts  ...If your alt makes a profit, then...
ALT >> Buy larger amount of BTC

You are helping BTC if you buy good alts at the right time.  :)

For every 1 Altcoin sold, an Altcoin is bought.

Example:

I mine an Altcoin:

Mine 1000 ALT
Sell 1000 ALT at 500 Satoshis.


Someone just bought 1000 ALT, someone just sold 1000 ALT. BTC is unaffected. This is like saying "stock trading hurts USD".

Opportunity cost: you could buy bitcoins intead and give btc more value.

Each time someone leaves  btc to invest in stock markets or something else, it hurts because the selling pressure. Stock trading also hurt btc with the opportunity cost issue, and btc hurts the stock market. So few to invest, and so many investiments.

Yes, but when someone sells their coins, someone has to buy the coins, or else there is no trade. For every Sell there is a Buy.

How you can "hurt" btc ... ?

If you invest in alt-coin, that means your imaginary "1usd" wont increase value of btc but increase value of altcoin... So you wont hurt btc, you just wont push it up ;)

On other hand:
If there are lot of investors in alt-coin, that means value of btc is not overbought so you can buy cheaper ..

do you agree ? ;)

...and every sell drives the price down, which hurts Bitcoin: currencies are unusual in that their utility increases the more they're worth.

http://themisescircle.org/blog/2014/02/12/im-hoarding-bitcoins-and-no-you-cant-have-any/

...and every buy drives the price up, which helps Bitcoin

When someone buys an altcoin, someone is also buying Bitcoin!

i think altcoins help bitcoin even if its a smal amount because it is almost like a item being bought and sold in bitcoin. since tey all revolve around bitcoin and people need bitcoin to get the alt coin. so i think it helps bitcoin overall

Exactly

Sounds a bit like dollars.   No matter how you try, in end you are buying dollars for something and helping the Washington political system to continue on with its nonsense.  Im sure half the world wishes it could leave behind big brother but in the end everything comes back to it.  I do think alt coins can just trade by themselves but most are tiny and probably dont benefit from cutting themselves off from a larger market, most are dying to be placed on a larger exchange next to btc ltc and doge as it can bring in new business and liquidity  Is that how dollar dominates, you dont dare cut it out and so your'll serve washingtons wishes even Russia?

I'm not sure if you're trolling

Im not trolling.

Look I've thought about this argument before too.  One post is not going to change an entire mindset.  As long as people can mine alts and sell them for BTC it's not going to stop.  I really don't get who is paying to buy all these alts but I guess there are some trying to win the lottery on the "next" Bitcoin.

Yes. It happened with BC, 450 Satoshi to 94k at its peak. 1 BTC turned into 209 BTC. It does happen.

I don't love bitcoin that much

the people that hold the ucrrency make the price go up. but the fact tat so many people are using bitcoin now and other alt coins there is tomany and i think that many traders are trading them and not bitcoin :( less volume

I'll tell you somethingelse.

It is the free market.  Bitcoin doesn't need "protecting", what it needs is to be awesome.  If bitcoin is the best coin, other coins can't/won't hurt it.  Right now that is the case and bitcoin is the reserve but that is to some extent being driven by its first mover advantage.  But if bitcoin needs to stay number #1 it needs to innovate and adapt.  If not..... an alt WILL come along and hurt it something bad.  First mover advantage only gets a product so far.  Ask Myspace, Altavista, and Hotmail.  After that you got to beat the man to stay the man.  This is reality. 

but some altcoin is showing new ideas,so just buy if you think it's worthy of investing.

The easiest way to obtain CHEAP BTC is to mine alts.

I make more money trading altcoins than Bitcoin, so I hope you will not mind if I keep buying into alt coins.

This is a post out of clear desperation. Bitcoin is down not because of alts.

I actually think altcoins are good for bitcoin. The dogecoin community made a lot of people aware of cryptocurrency.

Obvious free markets are obvious.

ALT coins are all crap anyways lol.

I tend to agree, in long run one or atmost two are gonna dominate the scene
Most alts are pump and dump schemes and bad PR period
Makes more confusing for newbies

Well, free altcoins make me profits. And why should i pay fiats for bitcoin while ppl get it near free years ago?

And this will be one of the times when I use broken grammar, and English:

kkk we believes you

Alt coins will always exist as long as BTC continues to reject the idea of adopting new changes to improve the coin.