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Title: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 10:19:50 AM I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase.
I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone. It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable. Less spending = less economic activity. People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable. Less work = less economic activity. People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast? Less investments = less economic activity. I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse. And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position. I really desire, if it ever becomes mainstream, that it grows VERY SLOWLY. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 10:36:03 AM Hey, it wasn't meant as an attack on you. If I had bitcoin, i would also want it to rise. It's natural.
I wanted to buy it at some point. But maybe I would have second thoughts and also feel a bit bad about it. I am just afraid if bitcoin can really destabilize economy? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: MatTheCat on April 18, 2014, 10:54:24 AM You have hit the nail on the head.
Lust for personal gain is very quick to dilute any altruistic or higher libertarian values that might have swayed the very earliest of adopters into investing a bit of money into Bitcoin. As for Bitcoin destabilising the economy. It is a too small. It is a flea on a donkeys back. However, it can and it will be used in the future as a means of capital flight, so it will help destabilise someone's economy, and the parasites crawling over the flea on the donkeys back might reap massive profits if they are riding Bitcoin at the right time and know when to jump off. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: blatchcorn on April 18, 2014, 11:14:26 AM There is nothing immoral about wanting to make money.
Many people here are not simply investing in Bitcoin because they want to make a quick-buck like penny stocks. Rather, Bitcoin investors help support their investments by building businesses around Bitcoin and raising awareness. If you think these forums are bad, don't watch the Wolf of Wall Street. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: paratox on April 18, 2014, 11:31:20 AM To clarify, I am not one of those "who want so much that it goes to the moon", I am more curious about the "Game Theory" aspects of cryptocurriencies
It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable. Less spending = less economic activity. Why would that be a bad thing? Considering that our current economic activity isn't really sustainable. People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable. Less work = less economic activity. You seem to think that people are only working to get money, which I think is not the truth. People often have to choose a work which pays more but isn't exactly what they would like to do. Wouldn't it be nice if you could purse your passion and do something that is of value to society instead of working for minimum wage just to survive? The reward would be first and foremost on an emotional level which (imho) is a much more important factor for health and happiness than money could ever be. People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast? Less investments = less economic activity. Maybe the factors that influence the decision to invest into a company will change. For example, a company that is focused on making life on earth more sustainable could be a great investment. On the contrary, parasitically companies who are just focused on profits may get less investment funds. I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse. Maybe, maybe not. What makes you think that our current economy isn't heading for collapse anyway? And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position. If Bitcoin is truly deflationary, late adopters may join at a time in Bitcoins history where growth will happen in a very slow manner, which is what you seem to suggest should be happening right now. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: zimmah on April 18, 2014, 11:34:44 AM I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase. I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone. It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable. Less spending = less economic activity. People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable. Less work = less economic activity. People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast? Less investments = less economic activity. I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse. And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position. I really desire, if it ever becomes mainstream, that it grows VERY SLOWLY. Even if you earned $100 per hour tax free you'd have to work for nearly 5 years of 40-hour work weeks to gain even $1 million. Now, how many people even earn more than $25 per hour? And how much tax do they pay for that? The problem with working hard is that the only one who truly benefits from your hard work is the CEO of the company you work hard for. I rather work smart and cheat the system that tries to cheat me. And I'll make sure that once I am rich enough for my liking, the people i love and care about do not have to work (read: be enslaved) ever again. (In a legal way though). That's not to say I will not work and do not want my friends and family to work. It's just that we will choose when and what we do, rather than have a 'boss' decide. We're human people, we don't have bosses, we're not dogs. By the way the problems you describe are actually a result of the greed based capitalist system and well happen with any currency, arguably even moreso with fiat. Because the richest people in this world do not really work. They have their money work for them or they have people work for them or both. Mostly banks and super corporations. With a gold or silver or bitcoin based system, once you spent your bitcoins you can not magically create new ones (you could mine them, but that's not the same thing, mining takes effort and costs money as well). With fiat some people can just print more money or 'type it into existence' by making a loan. This creates a massive unbalance in the world. If for example person A has 100 bitcoins and person B has 1 bitcoin and person C has 0 bitcoin but has an apple garden. He'd just sell some apples for bitcoin and person A and B will lose bitcoins because they want apples. Now eventually because C has a constant supply of apples, he'll get a steady income in bitcoin and if A and B do nothing to gain more bitcoins, they'll eventually have none left and person C would now have 101 bitcoins and all of the apples. So, sitting on your bud doing nothing will eventually make you poor in a world were bitcoin is common. Of course when you buy bitcoin now before they are expensive you could have a stash big enough to last you a lifetime. If we assume they'll become globally accepted currency someday. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: yayayo on April 18, 2014, 12:25:40 PM I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase. The essential word here is "if". It's not a sure thing. So people take a substantial risk when buying bitcoin. Other people do not want to take this risk. So I think it's well deserved wealth in case the bitcoin buyers are right with their assumptions. Your deeply held belief that only hard work leads to wealth is also severely flawed. There are millions or even billions of people that work hard every day but will never be rich. The simple reason: They are slaves of economy and they prefer the illusion of acceptable economic security that their job seems to offer over taking a personal risk to fundamentally improve their situation (of cause this can be extremely hard in many cases). ya.ya.yo! Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 12:46:14 PM Thanks for your replies.
When i said you need to work hard to earn money, I didn't necessarily mean holding a standard 9 to 5 job and being exploited by a company. But actually doing something, creating some value. Being active. You can do this when you have your own company as well. But all the companies create some value, some product that some people will use. With philosophy of holding bitcoins, you create nothing, and potentially earn enormous sum of money. And of course there is a lot of risk involved in it. But a lot of people speak of logarithmic charts and long term trends, and take huge future increase for granted. For them it's not about if, but when. I don't understand this feeling of being entitled to increase your wealth by, say, 100 or 1000 times in few years, by doing nothing and just holding bitcoin. If such an attitude becomes too widespread, I'm afraid it can affect economy negatively. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: piramida on April 18, 2014, 12:51:16 PM With philosophy of holding bitcoins, you create nothing, and potentially earn enormous sum of money. You miss some crucial part, so all of your conclusions are wrong. To hold bitcoins, you must either a. mine them and support network operations or b. buy them and support businesses and tech developments with your money. So no, it is not free, you support the project, its network, and its development *directly*. You put your trust and your money into it, risking it would all go to zero. If it succeeds, you are rewarded. But nothing is free. Risk is not free. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 12:57:14 PM Maybe. Supporting the technologies and companies that are connected to it is maybe the most appealing part of it for me.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: yayayo on April 18, 2014, 01:00:33 PM With philosophy of holding bitcoins, you create nothing, and potentially earn enormous sum of money. You miss some crucial part, so all of your conclusions are wrong. To hold bitcoins, you must either a. mine them and support network operations or b. buy them and support businesses and tech developments with your money. So no, it is not free, you support the project, its network, and its development *directly*. You put your trust and your money into it, risking it would all go to zero. If it succeeds, you are rewarded. But nothing is free. Risk is not free. Yeah that's the point. If you buy bitcoin with US$, you probably have worked already to obtain US$ in the first place. And you hand that fiat over to some miners thereby supporting their business. ya.ya.yo! Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Jr65 on April 18, 2014, 01:00:50 PM I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase. I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone. It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable. Less spending = less economic activity. People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable. Less work = less economic activity. People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast? Less investments = less economic activity. I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse. And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position. I really desire, if it ever becomes mainstream, that it grows VERY SLOWLY. I could not disagree with you more. Why would you think that Bitcoin success would cause an economic collapse? Please explain. You're basically wishing ill upon people in this community. No mass adoption...no wealth...no Bitcoin. What's with the spite? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: teukon on April 18, 2014, 01:24:29 PM I don't understand this feeling of being entitled to increase your wealth by, say, 100 or 1000 times in few years, by doing nothing and just holding bitcoin. Question: Do you think it's ethical to buy a lottery ticket and hope that it pays off? If it does, is it ethical to collect your winnings? I know this is not exactly the same thing as Bitcoin, but I'd like to probe a little into the idea that it's wrong to increase ones wealth without being "productive". Another: Is it ethical to accept a large inheritance? What about a small gift? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 01:31:51 PM With lottery you have mathematically proven extremely small chance of winning (close to zero). So for people lottery is just a game. People buy it, and expect to lose money.
With bitcoin some people expect FOR SURE to increase their wealth 100 or 1000 times. Exponential growth is quite dramatic thing, that can lead to disasters. I am not wishing anyone ill, i am just frightened by such huge expected rises of value. I think it should be a more gradual thing. And also I am a bit shocked by feelings of entitlement. If I had a lot of money, I would maybe buy just one or two bitcoins, just in case they boom, that I am not the last one left behind. But I would never put all of my money into it. I wouldn't even put most of my money into it. Probably just a small fraction. When it comes to accepting large inheritance I am undecided about whether it's ethical or not. Maybe inheritance law could be modified if not abolished completely. However, it's normal and natural for parents to want to leave something for their children, so I don't think it's really wrong. And also they probably worked hard for years to earn that money, so they can decide what to do with it as they please. Edit for spelling mistakes. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 01:42:20 PM Also, I am looking at the bigger picture. While astronomical rise would surely benefit those who have bitcoin, I am not sure if it would benefit the entire society and economy. So my desire is greater good for everyone, and not just owners of bitcoin. And that would be possible, in my opinion, by more gradual rise, and gradual adoption.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: piramida on April 18, 2014, 01:56:25 PM Also, I am looking at the bigger picture. While astronomical rise would surely benefit those who have bitcoin, I am not sure if it would benefit the entire society and economy. So my desire is greater good for everyone, and not just owners of bitcoin. And that would be possible, in my opinion, by more gradual rise, and gradual adoption. As if price retractions are not enough? Plenty of time even for the slowest thinkers to get onboard when it is cheap. And it is cheap half the time. Understand this - price can not steadily rise to it's actual final valuation. It is impossible, as soon as people see steadily rising price, they speed things up exponentially. So whether or not you are sure, bitcoin excuses itself as it does not give much concern while it finds it's actual value by oscillating wildly. If you have any solid ideas, how a "greater good for everyone" works, sure, describe? So far all greater good adepts start with pre-allocating all the coins to themselves and then they will decide who gets their share :) I say, screw such "greater good", let the market figure out the distribution, at least it is not one greedy human being but a whole lot of them, and everybody gets their chance. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: sporket on April 18, 2014, 02:34:17 PM I don't understand this feeling of being entitled to increase your wealth by, say, 100 or 1000 times in few years, by doing nothing and just holding bitcoin. Question: Do you think it's ethical to buy a lottery ticket and hope that it pays off? If it does, is it ethical to collect your winnings? I know this is not exactly the same thing as Bitcoin, but I'd like to probe a little into the idea that it's wrong to increase ones wealth without being "productive". Another: Is it ethical to accept a large inheritance? What about a small gift? Lottery ticket: If your ethics are Judeo-Christian, then it's ethically wrong. On top of being monumentally stupid. Collecting the winnings (profits of gambling) would also be wrong. Large inheritance: If by "accepting" you mean taking it and giving it away, then you're awesome from a Christian perspective ("If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." -KJV) Ethics are meh. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Timo Y on April 18, 2014, 02:43:37 PM My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase. That is an utopian ideal that goes against human nature. The real economy simply doesn't work like that. It hasn't worked like that ever since the invention of agriculture, and probably not even before that. If the economy worked like that, then a subsistence farmer in Africa would earn the same hourly wage as a star football player. By any objective measure, both work equally hard. So why do their hourly wages differ by a factor of 100,000? In a free market, people do not get rewarded for work. They get rewarded for creating value. There are many ways of creating value. For most of them work is a necessary, but not sufficient ingredient. But humans are very similar in their capacity and willingness to work. Even the hardest working human on the planet cannot put in more than 20 hours a day. The crucial ingredient for creating value is not work but access to capital. The variability in amount of work is tiny compared to the variability in access to capital. In the information economy, smart allocation of information capital is the key to getting rich. It is also the key to boosting our living standards far beyond what a more labor-oriented economy could achieve. This is why I don't worry about tech entrepreneurs getting filthy rich. Sure it would be nice if everyone on earth had equal access to capital. But it is in the nature of all living things, including humans, to pass capital to their offspring, and thus capital accumulates over generations. And I don't just mean money that is inherited, I am also talking about things like social and cultural capital. Utopian cures to this "disease" have proven disastrous. Quote Less spending = less economic activity. Economic activity, by itself, is neither good nor bad. What matters is the type of economic activity, not the quantity. Economics is all about the allocation of scarce resources. Forget about money for a moment. A desirable economy is one that allocates resources such in a way that maximizes utility for the biggest number of people. The optimum amount of economic activity in the right sectors is what achieves this. Indiscriminate boosting of economic activity is almost always detrimental to this. Money is just an auxiliary. Resources are still allocated irrespective of whether all money is being circulated all the time. Quote Less work = less economic activity. See above. This is not necessarily a bad thing. There is an optimum amount of work that makes most people most happy. When people work more than that they become unhappier again. Maximization of work is not desirable. Maximization of happiness is. Quote People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast? Bitcoin will only grow fast as long as it's in diffusion phase. Once established, price will be relatively stagnant like for any other established stock or commodity. Quote I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse. Yeah, because people would rather starve than part with their precious bitcoins? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: matt608 on April 18, 2014, 02:46:20 PM Firstly the wealth created by hard work doesn't go back to the people who did the work. The hardest workers in society are often the lowest paid, i.e. labourers.
Secondly holding bitcoins isn't doing nothing. While being merely an investment for some, for many of us holding bitcoins is political activism. It's a vote of no confidence in the financial system and a vote of no confidence in the political system (as bitcoin technology can lead to the development of a direct digital democracy). It's voting for a system that will facilitate freedom of speech (via the incentivzed decentralisation of the Internet) as well as the skirting unjust government sanctions that punish the poorest. It's a vote for a system that can build a truly democratic world that includes everyone. A vote for the reorganization of society into one that is capable of making decisions that lead to a sustainable future, which I argue is necessary for the survival of humanity and life on Earth. Bitcoin is a vital tool in saving the world, and in many other ways than these. Isn't this an activity worthy of being richly rewarded? Given the pointless 'hard work' so many people do I say people willing to take risks like this for the sake of the survival of their species are heroes worth decorating in robes of riches and glory. (excuse me for tooting my own horn... :P) Plus if bitcoin does continue as many are expecting (to tens of thousands of dollars per coin and up) that will be the biggest redistribution of wealth in the history of man kind, which given the current state of wealth disparity I say is a good thing. Edit: Also a final point: since when is high economic activity good? We build products that are designed to break just to people have to buy another one. This 'economic growth at all costs' paradigm has resulted in taking us to the brink of a mass extinction. Take the floating island of rubbish the size of texas floating across the pacific right now. Do you really encourage the pointless hard work that fuels such a system? Bitcoin is about changing the system to eventually make it sustainable. It's like investing in the super-brain of humanity. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: piramida on April 18, 2014, 03:22:34 PM since when is high economic activity good? We build products that are designed to break just to people have to buy another one. This 'economic growth at all costs' paradigm has resulted in taking us to the brink of a mass extinction. Take the floating island of rubbish the size of texas floating across the pacific right now. Do you really encourage the pointless hard work that fuels such a system? Bitcoin is about changing the system to eventually make it sustainable. It's like investing in the super-brain of humanity. Yep and that is the greater good that will come out of bitcoin, does not matter what it's interim speculative value is. Not now, not tomorrow, not even in 5 years, but it will eventually. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 04:03:04 PM Firstly the wealth created by hard work doesn't go back to the people who did the work. The hardest workers in society are often the lowest paid, i.e. labourers. It is true, but today's richest people also had to work hard or to be very inventive to become rich. Bill Gates is a very talented person who created a big company and Windows is the most used operating system in the world. So he deserves it. It's not easy to do what Bill Gates did. The same is true for most self-made billionaires. They all achieved extraordinary things, or they were extremely talented in some area. This is completely different from someone who simply buys bitcoin, and 5 years later, voila, he is a millionaire. Plus if bitcoin does continue as many are expecting (to tens of thousands of dollars per coin and up) that will be the biggest redistribution of wealth in the history of man kind, which given the current state of wealth disparity I say is a good thing. I actually think that this wouldn't achieve any redistribution at all. It would just reinforce current distribution even more. Those who were rich would become even richer, and those who were poor would become even poorer. Today, most of bitcoin owners are young, educated, anglo-saxon men. People who already come from rich backgrounds. Those who can afford to spend money on it, and who can afford to lose money. And also those brave enough (and maybe greedy enough) to risk and to jump in it early. Women are grossly underrepresented, as are minorities, people whose first language is not English, people from less developed countries etc. And if you look at current distribution of bitcoins, it's way more unequal than general distribution of wealth in the world. Gini index for bitcoin economy is extremely high. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 04:19:12 PM since when is high economic activity good? We build products that are designed to break just to people have to buy another one. This 'economic growth at all costs' paradigm has resulted in taking us to the brink of a mass extinction. Take the floating island of rubbish the size of texas floating across the pacific right now. Do you really encourage the pointless hard work that fuels such a system? Bitcoin is about changing the system to eventually make it sustainable. It's like investing in the super-brain of humanity. Yep and that is the greater good that will come out of bitcoin, does not matter what it's interim speculative value is. Not now, not tomorrow, not even in 5 years, but it will eventually. I also agree that constant economic growth is not sustainable and not desirable. But I think it's too early for that. Advanced western economies are already approaching zero growth. But undeveloped countries still need economic growth, and a lot of it, if they ever plan to approach western standards of living. Also, economic growth does not necessarily mean using more resources. Today, most of the things created in economy are immaterial things. Services. This tertiary sector dominates in GDP of developed countries. And it's not resource intensive economic activity. With the development of technology, it will be possible to create more value with using less resources. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: piramida on April 18, 2014, 04:28:36 PM It is true, but today's richest people also had to work hard or to be very inventive to become rich. Bill Gates is a very talented person who created a big company and Windows is the most used operating system in the world. So he deserves it. It's not easy to do what Bill Gates did. The same is true for most self-made billionaires. They all achieved extraordinary things, or they were extremely talented in some area. This is completely different from someone who simply buys bitcoin, and 5 years later, voila, he is a millionaire. So now you are judging who deserves to have money and who don't? Nice. Do you know that Bill Gates pretty much stole the DOS OS that started his path to riches? Just sayin'... It so happens that, without a reliable way to determine how much somebody contributed to society and how much benefits this society owes that person now, money was invented as a medium of exchanging work-hours for the benefits. The fact that some people now have most of it, shows that it is far from perfect, but that's all we have (until bitcoin). So, when you invest money into something, you invest your work. If your work (in form of money) makes you richer, that means you were "very inventive" with where you applied the proceeds of your work to, instead of wasting it on hookers and whisky. One last thing, don't forget that holding bitcoins is a very tough task in itself. You have to protect them from hackers, not sell them when tempted, not send them to mtgox, etc. Try holding 1btc for 5 years, just so you would have some first hand experience. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Ibian on April 18, 2014, 05:06:20 PM It is true, but today's richest people also had to work hard or to be very inventive to become rich. Bill Gates is a very talented person who created a big company and Windows is the most used operating system in the world. So he deserves it. It's not easy to do what Bill Gates did. The same is true for most self-made billionaires. They all achieved extraordinary things, or they were extremely talented in some area. Investing in bitcoin takes intelligence and a high risk tolerance. If you lose your private keys then whatever money you put into bitcoin is gone forever and can never be recovered. This is the primary risk as I see it, but only because I know enough about the protocol and economy and history and psychology to see that bitcoin will inevitably keep growing. If not for that, the perceived risk would be far higher, and it is for a lot of people. Intelligence, risk tolerance, or both is what makes bitcoiners deserve their wealth. And cowardice and stupidity is what makes the masses deserve their wage slave jobs.This is completely different from someone who simply buys bitcoin, and 5 years later, voila, he is a millionaire. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: dogechode on April 18, 2014, 05:15:25 PM If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. ...strong contender for biggest outright lie ever told in the history of bitcointalk award. No offense but come on dude, seriously? I guess if you bought google stock and a month later it started going crazy and within a few months or years you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire, you would feel guilty and ashamed and bad about it? What the fuck? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: favelle75 on April 18, 2014, 05:28:54 PM I don't really understand you folks. I guess the bigger question is......why the eff do you care what anyone else thinks here?? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 05:36:23 PM If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. ...strong contender for biggest outright lie ever told in the history of bitcointalk award. No offense but come on dude, seriously? I guess if you bought google stock and a month later it started going crazy and within a few months or years you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire, you would feel guilty and ashamed and bad about it? What the fuck? I would be happy and euphoric initially, but not sure how I would feel about it in long term. It's like winning lottery. I've watched some documentaries about people winning lottery, and most of them didn't keep their money in long term, some even became depressed or even poorer eventually. Also, Google is not the same as bitcoin. Because google creates value through it's services, while bitcoin is just a store of value and means of exchange. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 18, 2014, 05:50:57 PM Anyway, that's pretty much all i have to contribute at this moment. I don't feel like breaking your dreams. Just wanted to share some of my thoughts with you. I hope bitcoin's future will be such that it doesn't cause too many shocks and that it really achieves all the noble goals that you all desire, without too many side effects. I am not sure if this will happen, but that's what I would like to happen. Also, I think slower and steady growth is better for bitcoin as well, because it would mean wider adoption. Constant cycles of bubbles and crashes alienate a lot of people from it, and also a lot of people earn or lose a lot of money quickly and this is always tough play. I've heard of people dreaming about bitcoin. I know for myself that I wouldn't like to be so obsessed by one thing. Even now, even if I don't own any bitcoins, I follow the charts and discussions every day and follow it with excitement. I think I would get unhealthily obsessed if i actually owned some.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: the joint on April 18, 2014, 06:02:56 PM I actually think that a genuine belief in the idea that money is only deserved or earned through hard work is exactly what prevents most people from being rich. If you've ever worked at some place like UPS, you will find lots of people who are proud of this hard work but have empty bank accounts.
Try not just believing, but *knowing* that money comes easily. You might find that, in fact, money does come easily. I've been trying this approach for over a year now, and though it may be coincidence, I've seen significant increases in my income, and on a number of occasions certain situations have arisen where extra money seems to come to me without even trying. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: BitchicksHusband on April 18, 2014, 06:05:17 PM With lottery you have mathematically proven extremely small chance of winning (close to zero). So for people lottery is just a game. People buy it, and expect to lose money. With bitcoin some people expect FOR SURE to increase their wealth 100 or 1000 times. Exponential growth is quite dramatic thing, that can lead to disasters. I am not wishing anyone ill, i am just frightened by such huge expected rises of value. I think it should be a more gradual thing. And also I am a bit shocked by feelings of entitlement. If I had a lot of money, I would maybe buy just one or two bitcoins, just in case they boom, that I am not the last one left behind. But I would never put all of my money into it. I wouldn't even put most of my money into it. Probably just a small fraction. When it comes to accepting large inheritance I am undecided about whether it's ethical or not. Maybe inheritance law could be modified if not abolished completely. However, it's normal and natural for parents to want to leave something for their children, so I don't think it's really wrong. And also they probably worked hard for years to earn that money, so they can decide what to do with it as they please. Edit for spelling mistakes. I hate to say this, but you are a fool. What is happening in bitcoin already happened with every large company from Woolworth's to Google. The ONLY difference is that usually, the people that get rich on the adoption curve are: a handful of executives and a lot of bankers. The people that work to make something are typically robbed of the fruits of their contribution down to the bare minimums, to the point where unions were needed to allow them to, you know, actually live on their wages. And once the stock value goes through the roof and starts to level off, only THEN is it available for sale to peons like you and me where in meanders along making very low percentages. There are a few companies where the bankers screwed up and allowed the IPO too soon, most notably the tech companies like Google, Apple and Microsoft. There were substantial gains to be made on those stocks, because the bankers screwed up when imagining just how globally large they would eventually become. The ONLY difference with bitcoin is that it is the first technology where you and I can make the amount of money normally made by CEOs and bankers, because it's open source and peer-to-peer. There is no central figure to vacuum up all the profits, although certainly Satoshi is rich. So, by your own admission you are afraid of anything different. But the only difference here is that it is the first "fair" investment in the history of the world. But you would rather be robbed by CEOs and bankers because it seems more normal to you. Because bitcoin is too different and you don't like change. Sorry. I, for one, welcome the opportunity to invest in something and actually reap the rewards for once. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: BitchicksHusband on April 18, 2014, 06:08:24 PM If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. ...strong contender for biggest outright lie ever told in the history of bitcointalk award. No offense but come on dude, seriously? I guess if you bought google stock and a month later it started going crazy and within a few months or years you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire, you would feel guilty and ashamed and bad about it? What the fuck? I would be happy and euphoric initially, but not sure how I would feel about it in long term. It's like winning lottery. I've watched some documentaries about people winning lottery, and most of them didn't keep their money in long term, some even became depressed or even poorer eventually. Also, Google is not the same as bitcoin. Because google creates value through it's services, while bitcoin is just a store of value and means of exchange. The "happy" people on those shows are the ones that don't change anything. They continue to live where they do and have the same friends they always did. Yeah, maybe they have a few more toys, but they remain essentially unchanged. One family had a side business cleaning toilets at office buildings. Winning the lottery meant they could quit their day jobs, but they still do janitorial work together as a family. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Ryota on April 18, 2014, 07:09:33 PM There is nothing immoral about wanting to make money. Making money with money is basically unethical. A number of startups are developing services and products for bitcoin and I would like the price remains somewhat stable without rollercoasters at each minute. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Ibian on April 18, 2014, 07:16:23 PM There is nothing immoral about wanting to make money. Making money with money is basically unethical. A number of startups are developing services and products for bitcoin and I would like the price remains somewhat stable without rollercoasters at each minute. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: teukon on April 18, 2014, 07:53:22 PM Making money with money is basically unethical. Wow! Could you expand on the logic behind this one? I'm not taunting; I'm genuinely interested. I've often found myself in the minority when it comes to morals. Recently here I've defended tax cheats, condemned selling general election votes, and defending pimping. I certainly don't wish to write off a seemingly bizarre ethical notion without giving the person claiming it a chance to defend it. Still, if you can defend this claim: Wow! Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Ryota on April 18, 2014, 09:22:40 PM Well, it is not only a religious view but also a philosophical position.
For Aristotle, money is just a medium of exchange and for him, making money with money was bad. But I admit it's difficult to make quick and big money with ethical integrity and honesty... Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: sporket on April 18, 2014, 09:28:03 PM ... No, making money through usury is unethical. At least if we are going by typical biblical ethics, otherwise all we are left with is personal opinion. In which case, screw your ethics. The Bible has a much wider interpretation of "usury." Religious law, both Jewish and Christian, prohibits lending money with interest -- that's usury. Which pretty much precludes "making money by having money" (though there's nothing there about deflationary currencies, which could be seen as making the holder wealthier). Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: knightcoin on April 18, 2014, 09:58:06 PM Quote So now you are judging who deserves to have money and who don't? Nice. Do you know that Bill Gates pretty much stole the DOS OS that started his path to riches? Just sayin' as far as I know Microsoft purchased 86-DOS, allegedly for $50,000 and the money Gates III borrowed from his father http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS ps-> I didn't know that Linux Kernel had used a "CLOSED SOURCE" source code management (SCM) BitKeeper for years .... anyway I believe that close source at 80's was the best way to remunerate software community ... ( not hardware builders only ) Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Ibian on April 18, 2014, 10:11:41 PM ... No, making money through usury is unethical. At least if we are going by typical biblical ethics, otherwise all we are left with is personal opinion. In which case, screw your ethics. The Bible has a much wider interpretation of "usury." Religious law, both Jewish and Christian, prohibits lending money with interest -- that's usury. Which pretty much precludes "making money by having money" (though there's nothing there about deflationary currencies, which could be seen as making the holder wealthier). Usury is usury. That is lending money and getting more money back with no further effort on your part. That says nothing about any other form of business. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: sporket on April 18, 2014, 10:56:18 PM ... No. Usury is usury. That is lending money and getting more money back with no further effort on your part. That says nothing about any other form of business. Why wold I lie? What is it that you've found in my post that you disagree with? Below is conveniently quoted from wikip's entry on USURY: Quote Jewish Bible[edit] (AKA Christian Old Testament) From Jewish Publication Society 1917 Tanakh.[32] Christian verses in parentheses. Exodus 22:24 (25)—If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest. Leviticus 25:36— Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Leviticus 25:37— Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase. Deuteronomy 23:20 (19)—Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest. Deuteronomy 23:21 (20)—Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou puttest thy hand unto, in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. Ezekiel 18:17—that hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, that hath not received interest nor increase, hath executed Mine ordinances, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. Psalm 15:5—He that putteth not out his money on interest, nor taketh a bribe against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. Christian Bible[edit] This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help us clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. (March 2011) Christ drives the Usurers out of the Temple, a woodcut by Lucas Cranach the Elder in Passionary of Christ and Antichrist.[33] The New Testament contains references to usury, notably in the Parable of the talents: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." —Matthew 25:27 "Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.." —Matthew 25:27 "…Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?" —Luke 19:22-23 Clarifying confusion or the lack of clarity: The above scriptures teach about putting your talents to work, not so much about business savvy or how to lend money ( please read the above passages in context for clarity ). The following scriptures teach about lending: "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." —Matthew 5:42 "And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." —Luke 6:34-35 "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” —Luke 6:38 Almost every religion takes a shit view of money. Money epitomizes things low and secular, Christ overturns the tables of the money changers and sellers of doves who set up shop in The Temple -- how's that for blunt imagery? I personally love money, don't get me wrong, but money is intrinsically evil, and those who have it can not be saintly by definition, or Christian-saintly at least. Christ tells a rich young man to give away all of his possessions to be more like Him. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Siegfried on April 19, 2014, 12:26:39 AM ... No. Usury is usury. That is lending money and getting more money back with no further effort on your part. That says nothing about any other form of business. Why wold I lie? What is it that you've found in my post that you disagree with? Below is conveniently quoted from wikip's entry on USURY: Quote Jewish Bible[edit] (AKA Christian Old Testament) From Jewish Publication Society 1917 Tanakh.[32] Christian verses in parentheses. Exodus 22:24 (25)—If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest. Leviticus 25:36— Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Leviticus 25:37— Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase. Deuteronomy 23:20 (19)—Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest. Deuteronomy 23:21 (20)—Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou puttest thy hand unto, in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. Ezekiel 18:17—that hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, that hath not received interest nor increase, hath executed Mine ordinances, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. Psalm 15:5—He that putteth not out his money on interest, nor taketh a bribe against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. Christian Bible[edit] This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help us clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. (March 2011) Christ drives the Usurers out of the Temple, a woodcut by Lucas Cranach the Elder in Passionary of Christ and Antichrist.[33] The New Testament contains references to usury, notably in the Parable of the talents: "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." —Matthew 25:27 "Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.." —Matthew 25:27 "…Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?" —Luke 19:22-23 Clarifying confusion or the lack of clarity: The above scriptures teach about putting your talents to work, not so much about business savvy or how to lend money ( please read the above passages in context for clarity ). The following scriptures teach about lending: "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." —Matthew 5:42 "And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." —Luke 6:34-35 "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” —Luke 6:38 Almost every religion takes a shit view of money. Money epitomizes things low and secular, Christ overturns the tables of the money changers and sellers of doves who set up shop in The Temple -- how's that for blunt imagery? I personally love money, don't get me wrong, but money is intrinsically evil, and those who have it can not be saintly by definition, or Christian-saintly at least. Christ tells a rich young man to give away all of his possessions to be more like Him. Why should a rational person get his morality from the Bible? Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: dogechode on April 19, 2014, 12:32:40 AM Yeah almost every religion takes a shit view of money yet most of the religious organizations are flush with cash. And for a long time (arguably still true in some places) one of the main functions of religion was to legitimize the government and/or rulers/monarchs/dictators/etc. Kind of funny how that works out.
Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: sporket on April 19, 2014, 01:22:32 AM ... Why should a rational person get his morality from the Bible? It's not "why should" but (at least in my corner of the world) ethics *are* Judeo-Christian. It doesn't particularly matter if ethical maxims were passed down from Heaven or if Heaven was imagined in concordance with our ethics, what we consider "good" and "moral" is pretty much Judeo-Christian (in most of the western world). Alluding to religious texts also makes a nice "shorthand" for morality. That way, you don't constantly have to add "i think" or "i feel" to every sentence you say. We even say "canon, gospel" when we mean immutable, something that can't be questioned. If you try to do without some meta-touchstone like religious texts, ethics become uselessly subjective. "Thou shalt not kill"? Why not? As I said, ethics are pretty meh. The Faithful don't need them, and atheists can bend them to suit their needs. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Pente on April 19, 2014, 03:29:40 AM This thread reminds me of something that I read when I was about 9 years old:
So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil? When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor – your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil? Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions – and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth. But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made – before it can be looted or mooched – made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced. To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss – the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery – that you must offer them values, not wounds – that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade – with reason, not force, as their final arbiter – it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability – and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil? But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality – the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind. Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil? Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth – the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil? Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money? Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money? Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money – and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it. Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it. Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another – their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun. But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich – will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt – and of his life, as he deserves. Then you will see the rise of the double standard – the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money – the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law – men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims – then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter. Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot. Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.' When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are. You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood – money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves – slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers – as industrialists. To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money – and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being – the self-made man – the American industrialist. If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose – because it contains all the others – the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money'. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity – to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality. Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide – as, I think, he will. Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns – or dollars. Take your choice – there is no other – and your time is running out. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Newfeeling on April 19, 2014, 03:48:18 AM ... No, making money through usury is unethical. At least if we are going by typical biblical ethics, otherwise all we are left with is personal opinion. In which case, screw your ethics. The Bible has a much wider interpretation of "usury." Religious law, both Jewish and Christian, prohibits lending money with interest -- that's usury. Which pretty much precludes "making money by having money" (though there's nothing there about deflationary currencies, which could be seen as making the holder wealthier). There's very interesting theological loopholes/acrobatics that allowed both Jews and Christians (and Muslims) to make money by lending money. For a Christian who can't lend money and charge interest (per Jesus' teachings), there's nothing preventing him/her from charging a preset commission/fee for lending money to someone and including the fee in the repayment or by doing something like this for example: You want a car but can't afford it. I have lots of money, enough money to buy the car you want in fact, but since charging interest rustles my lord's jimmies, I have no incentive or security in lending you money. To get around charging interest and still make it worth my while - here's what I do: I'll buy the car for say $5000, sell it to you for my asking price of $5500 (10% above what I bought it for), but since you don't have $5500, I conveniently have exactly $5500 for you to borrow from me which you agree to pay back. Wam bam, no interest, no usury per new testament definitions of usury. For a Jew on the other hand, (in addition to the one mentioned for Christians) there's a different loophole which resulted in a lot of awful stereotypes. Usury was forbidden in the old testament....as it applies to your brother, or your people, or in other words, other Jews...as stated here Deuteronomy 23:21 - it's perfectly okay to lend with interest as long as you're not doing it to another fellow Jew. I'm sure you can connect the dots as to what happened when Jewish communities were the only ones allowed to offer straightforward banking services to people who needed them but couldn't because their big dude in the sky said "Nah brah, sorry". Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: sporket on April 19, 2014, 10:45:02 AM @Newfeeling: In the secular sphere, laws could be circumvented with creative interpretations, like your car example.* The thing with Christianity (I'll stick with Christianity for convenience) is it's a religion of intent. What's behind the deed is more important than the deed itself. You'll agree that an omniscient God won't be stumped by your car example, though many "religious" people would like to think He would.
@Newfeeling: Ayn Rand is as moving and impressive as Christian Rock :-\ Also: ... I personally love money, don't get me wrong, but money is intrinsically evil, and those who have it can not be saintly by definition, or Christian-saintly at least. Christ tells a rich young man to give away all of his possessions to be more like Him. *Though not quite to the extent many here assume. IRL law, unlike its theoretical ideal, also looks at the intent, not the letter. They don't think it be like it is, but it do :D Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: XxionxX on April 19, 2014, 08:43:23 PM OP, all I am reading here is that you would feel guilty for making money when you add liquidity and trust into a market which desperately craves it.
If you don't understand why people buy gold, stocks, or land and hope they increase in value; Then you won't understand why people buy bitcoin and hope it gains value without guilt. Do you know how hard it is to hold onto $70k+ you never had and watch it plummet into the floor? I do, and it is heart attack inducing. I have doubled what I have invested in fiat and I am still holding the rest so it's not like i'm losing a dime. I have put my entire future on the line here, I have had far more than 10 years worth of savings in my hands at certain points and I did not sell. I NEED THAT MONEY, SO FUCKING BAD. There are days when I just want to sell out and walk away because I just want to keep my leg up in life. But I am not giving up on bitcoin, not just because I might be rich but because I believe in the change it will bring. For me bitcoin isn't about the money, it is about freedom and ideals. I will NEVER sell a portion of my stash, I would rather watch it go to $0. And if I have to deal with all of the shit I get from everyone calling me crazy and the roller coaster ride that is bitcoin, I want to get paid for it. I feel absolutely no shame. Don't you tell me I am doing nothing, bitcoin has given me hope to gtfo of my shitty job and be able to do all of the things I have dreamed of. inb4 so brave, such moon, & whatever Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: rebel24 on April 19, 2014, 08:50:10 PM ITT: OP doesn't understand economics or investing.
Some economic cliffnotes: Investing is a RISK. Money is a zero-sum game. It hurts EVERYONE to lose it, even the most wealthy people in the world. Thus, when an individual, or group takes a risk and invests, they are investing the money in hopes of gaining a larger pie of the total money pool (again, money is a zero-sum game). And here's a deep concept that many people never realize even to death-- ultimately, money and power is about responsibility. And money should flow to those who are responsible, and altruistic (thinking of others, their family, their extended family, the health of the world, animals, planet, everything they love) (And I'm not saying the leaders of the world are perfect, nobody is, but they do a decent job (no nukes have been fired off in the past 50 years) ((and finally- if you think you can do a better job, then there's motivation and drive for you to get money and power--- and to make it go full circle- thats why I invest in bitcoin and dogecoin(most of my holdings are dogecoin-- because with strong confidence I believe I can gain a larger part of the zero-sum amount of money in the world by investing in those) Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Newfeeling on April 19, 2014, 09:47:44 PM @Newfeeling: In the secular sphere, laws could be circumvented with creative interpretations, like your car example.* The thing with Christianity (I'll stick with Christianity for convenience) is it's a religion of intent. What's behind the deed is more important than the deed itself. You'll agree that an omniscient God won't be stumped by your car example, though many "religious" people would like to think He would. Sure, and an omniscient and omnibenevolent god would surely never leave such loopholes included in the first place right? People might get really confused and unintentionally do something wrong by doing things literally by the book - especially when he says we need to be careful and follow all of his rules in James 2:10 AND Deuteronomy 28:1-12. I mean god is such a swell guy that if he didn't like what I'm doing he would have said so - he even told me that in 1 John 2:18-29. On top of that, I have to recognize passages like Matthew 5:42 that say I need to let my fellow man borrow from me. I can't charge interest to secure my loan, but Psalms 37:21 gives me some hope because it says that you're wicked if you don't pay me back and that it's good to be generous in general! So if I lend you the money to get your car - you'll surely pay it back and be righteous enough to pay me back a little something extra as a sign of goodwill! Or better yet - I don't even have to get involved in the messy business of lending money to you and trying to work with very complicated rules, I can just buy the car and you can rent it from me and once you've made 11 payments of $500, I'll just go ahead and give you the car ;). In the end we'll both walk from this happier and in a better position than we started - me being up $500 and you being up a car! How can the lord be upset with us improving each other's lives simultaneously? Quote @Newfeeling: Ayn Rand is as moving and impressive as Christian Rock :-\ Which is to say - not very moving or impressive at all while at the same time being overrated and unoriginal. Quote Also: I'm confused as to why you think money is intrinsically evil. What makes that so? How it's used? How it's produced? ... I personally love money, don't get me wrong, but money is intrinsically evil, and those who have it can not be saintly by definition, or Christian-saintly at least. Christ tells a rich young man to give away all of his possessions to be more like Him. Quote *Though not quite to the extent many here assume. IRL law, unlike its theoretical ideal, also looks at the intent, not the letter. They don't think it be like it is, but it do :D What a relief, because that means all of these pyramid sch... I mean multi-level marketing businesses will get shut down by the government because they're totally violating the spirit of the law even though they follow the letter of the law!**sees that Amway has been in business since 1959 and had the FTC rule in 1979 that they're not doing anything illegal** Oh, nevermind.. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: bitcoinsrus on April 19, 2014, 09:48:54 PM OP, all I am reading here is that you would feel guilty for making money when you add liquidity and trust into a market which desperately craves it. If you don't understand why people buy gold, stocks, or land and hope they increase in value; Then you won't understand why people buy bitcoin and hope it gains value without guilt. Do you know how hard it is to hold onto $70k+ you never had and watch it plummet into the floor? I do, and it is heart attack inducing. I have doubled what I have invested in fiat and I am still holding the rest so it's not like i'm losing a dime. I have put my entire future on the line here, I have had far more than 10 years worth of savings in my hands at certain points and I did not sell. I NEED THAT MONEY, SO FUCKING BAD. There are days when I just want to sell out and walk away because I just want to keep my leg up in life. But I am not giving up on bitcoin, not just because I might be rich but because I believe in the change it will bring. For me bitcoin isn't about the money, it is about freedom and ideals. I will NEVER sell a portion of my stash, I would rather watch it go to $0. And if I have to deal with all of the shit I get from everyone calling me crazy and the roller coaster ride that is bitcoin, I want to get paid for it. I feel absolutely no shame. Don't you tell me I am doing nothing, bitcoin has given me hope to gtfo of my shitty job and be able to do all of the things I have dreamed of. inb4 so brave, such moon, & whatever wow man that was passionate +1 Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: bitebits on April 19, 2014, 10:40:07 PM OP, all I am reading here is that you would feel guilty for making money when you add liquidity and trust into a market which desperately craves it. If you don't understand why people buy gold, stocks, or land and hope they increase in value; Then you won't understand why people buy bitcoin and hope it gains value without guilt. Do you know how hard it is to hold onto $70k+ you never had and watch it plummet into the floor? I do, and it is heart attack inducing. I have doubled what I have invested in fiat and I am still holding the rest so it's not like i'm losing a dime. I have put my entire future on the line here, I have had far more than 10 years worth of savings in my hands at certain points and I did not sell. I NEED THAT MONEY, SO FUCKING BAD. There are days when I just want to sell out and walk away because I just want to keep my leg up in life. But I am not giving up on bitcoin, not just because I might be rich but because I believe in the change it will bring. For me bitcoin isn't about the money, it is about freedom and ideals. I will NEVER sell a portion of my stash, I would rather watch it go to $0. And if I have to deal with all of the shit I get from everyone calling me crazy and the roller coaster ride that is bitcoin, I want to get paid for it. I feel absolutely no shame. Don't you tell me I am doing nothing, bitcoin has given me hope to gtfo of my shitty job and be able to do all of the things I have dreamed of. inb4 so brave, such moon, & whatever wow man that was passionate +1 Indeed, great post! Thanks for sharing your roller coaster story :) @OP Why don't you just consider it as buying shares into a new disruptive technology you truly believe in? If it succeeds, by far not only the shareholders will benefit. For example, the 10-15% fee by Western Union is currently taken from the poorest people in the world. By investing in Bitcoin, a few are putting their fiat on the line, a whole lot more will potentially benefit from it's new cost saving technology and opportunities. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Peter R on April 19, 2014, 10:47:50 PM This thread reminds me of something that I read when I was about 9 years old: So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil? … I've always wanted to memorize Francisco's speech you quoted and recite it at some opportune time at a party. I think it would be quite entertaining. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Bit_Happy on April 19, 2014, 10:58:24 PM I don't really understand you folks.... Markets are driven by Greed and Fear, that fact is based on human nature. Talking about the weather (for example) has no chance of actually changing the weather; Discussing how "crazy we are" probably will not do much to change human nature. You might teach a couple people to "calm down", but the markets will still go nuts ASAP. :) Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Peter R on April 19, 2014, 11:18:29 PM I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase. If you have more and truly want less, then you could just donate the money you didn't want to a cause that you supported. Is this not preferable? Let's consider your next points below: Quote I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone. It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable. Less spending = less economic activity. Let's say you are correct that people would have more freedom (money) to purchase goods and yet would abstain from doing so. This seems sort of ideal as then we would be exploiting our natural resources at a slower rate, while still remaining satisfied with what we have. WIN. Quote People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable. Less work = less economic activity. Let's say you are correct that people would have more freedom (time) to pursue their own interests. I expect those with industrial ambitions to pursue them, while those with arts or music passions to make music and art, and those with an interest in lying on the beach to … lie on the beach. WIN. Quote People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast? Less investments = less economic activity. Let's say you are correct that people would have more freedom (control) to direct their wealth as they choose. Some would hoard it like you said, but others would look to direct it towards building their vision of a better tomorrow. If demand for money increases, so will interest rates and it will motivate "hoarders" to become "lenders." Seems like a good way to kill inefficient businesses while letting efficient businesses thrive. WIN. It seems that you are worried about people having more money, time and control over their lives. I find this puzzling. Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: moravian on April 20, 2014, 09:16:41 PM Those who have bitcoin would just be getting richer and richer without doing any real work.
But you can't just get rich out of thin air? All the others would be losers. And if a lot of people had bitcoin, they would decrease all their economic activities because the most profitable thing is simply hoarding. And this is not good, because without activity, economy collapses. We would get Great Depression 2.0. (or 3.0. if you count late 2000s recession as 2.0) Title: Re: Overwhelmed by emotions shown here Post by: Ryota on April 20, 2014, 10:45:44 PM Those who have bitcoin would just be getting richer and richer without doing any real work. But you can't just get rich out of thin air? All the others would be losers. Just like in the real life. That word is “rentier”, which means to live off rents. |