Bitcoin Forum

I have done a ton of due diligence on BTC and here are my best efforts at a final and reasonable stance. If any of you think that I am anti-BTC, you could not be more wrong. I want the world to be a better place for my children and for mankind. BTC, if it ever gets to the mainstream, is going to revolution the world. After reading Marc Andreessen's New York Times article, entitled "Why Bitcoin Matters," I was thoroughly convinced that BTC goes straight to the heart of life improvement. To me, that is the most important thing about BTC. I care far less about the money aspect. Besides, the money will come if BTC gets a shot at helping the globe. Despite my high hopes for what BTC can do to help people, I am very bearish about its short/mid-range future. I am very bullish about its long-term future. (as in probably 10 years) The simple laws of supply and demand tell me that Mt. Gox's failure is going to hit the "reset" button on BTC's price. As a lawyer and someone who knows just enough about Bankruptcy, I have less than zero faith in our legal system, much less Japan's system. In a nutshell, Bankruptcy's job is to take broken companies, squeeze as much money as possible out of them and return it to creditors of all classes. As I have said before, Bankruptcy Court pays out in a specific order at greatly reduced amounts owed...very often pennies on the dollar. It usually goes 1. Employees and wages. 2. Ordinary creditors (for example, bank loans) and then 3. Customers, users, clients...or those that somehow used the Company's services. I believe that it is safe to cautiously assume that #3/Mt. Gox's account holders will get nothing. (see "The Associated Press") This point raises the question of how the Court will pay out to the creditors that do get something returned to them. If the only people that get paid in Court want cash, and I think it's obvious that they will, it stands to obvious reason that the Court will liquidate the 200k coins and not return BTC to anyone. If you lie in Court, you go to jail so I would not be shocked if someone blows the whistle on the whereabouts of the missing coins. That just means more BTC liquidation and more pain. Fact; Bankruptcy Courts liquidate quickly because their time is money. If you doubt me, I can post Bankruptcy Court websites where you can see people buying cars, boats and houses for huge discounts. Since few know about BTC, the discounts will likely be even greater. I guarantee that the Court will sell into the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance will either be to no one, in which case BTC becomes worthless or someone/s or group/s willing to put up big money for big discounts based on the strength and long-term promise of BTC. My wild-ass guess would be something like $10,000,000 for the 200k coins...or $50 per unit. Normally, I'd say less but I think that any smart buyer/s will want to make it appear like they are an industry white knight. The buyers' cost of acquiring the coins will be high because they will need lawyers, accountants, transportation costs for their team etc.) This scenario will totally reset the price of BTC and there will be a totally new set of BTC pioneers and winners. All the current exchanges will be out of business and BTC will return for sale to the public at large, reputable stock exchanges. Hopefully, by this time, BTC will have a robust infrastructure and the price will stabilize and climb at a sensible rate. There will also be heavy  regulation likely by the SEC. We will be lucky if my worthless prediction comes true because, otherwise, Mt. Gox is going to take down the baby and the bath water. I have posted three times about the enormous danger associated with the Mt. Gox's Bankruptcy scandal. Time to put my pen down, listen to your comments, enjoy Easter and hope that technologies like BTC help our world become a better place. I'll wrap this up by saying that if you think my post makes any sense, you will proceed with your investments with great care and not gamble with money that you cannot afford to lose. P.S. To all those who are angered by my posts, I'm only using my understanding of law and economics to arrive at a conclusion to help me and others move forward. I try not to get too emotional about money and investments. Worry about money has probably already shortened my lifespan. Now, I just chill, do my homework and let it play out because I know that I don't have any control over what happens! Happy Easter and best to all!

It seems plausible that an unprecedented BTC dump could crash the price without recovery in the near term.
I'm not sure if that's the most likely outcome though.  Certainly interesting to speculate about.
I think so many are ready to buy at as the price falls, that a high volume rally to above the price before the dump is a possibility too.
I wish I had a less vague idea about what quantifiable demand would be in such a situation.

Please make paragraphs because it's really annoying and eye-hurt to read integral text  :(

For the ppl who dont want to read alot:
Basicly he gives a final warning to be ready to have a rich life in a few years. ;D

OP, how many bitcoins did you sell off under $400 a couple weeks ago?

What you wrote!

LOL!

No paragraph breaks drives me nutz!

The real problem is that the message gets lost in the presentation!

My $.02.

;)

200,000 BTC is what? It is the reward of 8,000 blocks. At this moment we have 296,825 blocks, and the 288826th block was generated in 2014-03-04, which is 48 days ago.

So we have generated 200,000 BTC out of thin air in the past 48 days. Have we crashed to $50? No.

My fault. I'll use paragraphs next time. No one knows what the future holds for BTC. That is why the price has bounced all around over the last few years. It's all about guesses at this stage and only few here can make educated guesses beyond "to da moon." I'd love to hear from a Bankruptcy lawyer but I doubt there are any here. Best always. Jr65   

TL;DR -

Inexperienced OP doesn't fully understand Bitcoin and places too much emphasis on Gox.

Perhaps they will hold it like they do gold at Ft Knox. That gives the government a stake in Bitcoin that they can borrow against, etc.

Why?  There have been many times throughout history when someone got a great deal at a bankruptcy auction.  It's a one-time deal, and the purchaser isn't going to flood the market with coins afterward.  That would kill the value of their new investment.



Why?  I see nothing that would cause this regardless of what happens to BTC price.



I don't see how.  Bitcoin cannot be restrained by government.  US officials can only insert themselves at the point of deposit/withdrawal of US dollars.  Most of the SEC's regulations in financial markets cover direct exchange activities.  This cannot be applied to Bitcoin, which is governed by decentralized consensus.  Central banks and governments have no power here.

Government? Which one, and what does any government have to do with this?

This is a matter between Mark Karpeles and his creditors, administered by a trustee.

I don't know Japanese bankruptcy law, but here in Canada trustees are private.

If you are very bullish on btc long-term, then your warning probably shouldn't be towards the long-term holders ;)

I think we will see a crash once gox's coins have been liquidated, but I doubt it will go as low as $50, unless someone dumps a large amount on an exchange causing a flash crash. It's unlikely to happen again, but I wouldn't write it off completely.

couldn't read after 2 lines, you need to edit this and fix it if you want it to be readable.

+1000

Speed edit

it's too bad you couldn't put effort into using paragraphs.  I didnt even read your text wall.

What a wall of text.

Thanks for breaking my post down by paragraph. Your version looks a lot better than mine. I wrote my, far too long post that I now regret, in 20 minutes and I got sloppy with separating topics by paragraph. I also had my 7 year old daughter playing "20 Questions" with me as I wrote. My bad.

To the person that said, "blah, blah, blah" about my post.....congrats on your professionalism. Your parents must be so proud.

To the person that said that I'm "inexperienced." Not so fast. I have a Law Degree/MBA from Vanderbilt, I've worked on Wall St., owned and operated many businesses, (one that went bankrupt) I run my own stock portfolio and have years of experience in the Investment Banking world. I'm not blowing my horn...I have also had a ton of failures in business. I repeatedly noted in my first post on this thread that I was making (educated) guesses and, at one point, described my guess as very possibly "worthless." I was not purporting to predict the future. Again; I was trying to stick to law and economics. I thought I was helping, not hurting and I stand by most post, 100%. BTC's price is going to plummet, maybe not now but eventually. In fact, I think the price may have to plummet in order for BTC to survive.

I do due diligence for a living and if I couldn't spot holes in business spaces, I'd be living in a cardboard box. I was trying to educate my peers here on Bankruptcy rules and the deadly problems with oversupply. Saying "don't discount Mt. Gox. and its immense danger" is not enough. I wanted to flesh out my hypothesis and get your reaction. I'm telling you...Mt. Gox is the #1 pressing issue with BTC right now. I am not trying to push the BTC price down by spelling doom and gloom. Unlike most of you, I own my coins through "The Bitcoin Investment Trust" (2nd Mkt.) and they only offer once per month liquidity. When I can, I'm going to sell half of my investment and ride the storm out with my fellow coin holders, no matter how long it takes. The long-term future is bright provided we don't get "Goxed."

Apologies for the length and sloppiness of all of my posts. Doom or gloom, I'm just trying to have fun by speculating about the future. I enjoy healthy debates on this forum and I respect and appreciate everyone who has an educated opinion. Thanks for the ear! Jr65  

Your comments on bankruptcy are good to follow and I believe you know more about the process than I do.

However some comments are hard to understand like "The buyers' cost of acquiring the coins will be high because they will need lawyers, accountants, transportation costs for their team etc.) This scenario will totally reset the price of BTC and there will be a totally new set of BTC pioneers and winners. All the current exchanges will be out of business and BTC will return for sale to the public at large, reputable stock exchanges. Hopefully, by this time, BTC will have a robust infrastructure and the price will stabilize and climb at a sensible rate."

Why would this reset the price of BTC?
What I would deduct is that the cheap coinz aren't really cheap due to all the overhead acquiring them. In effect there are loads of people feeding off of the process.
The buyer will have no incentive to sell the cheap coinz cheaply because they might not be as cheap if you add the overhead. This would not make the BTC price drop as hard since the buyer might need $100 to $150 per unit to break even.

Why would all the current exchanges will be out of business?
Yes if BTC goes to $1 a piece stock exchanges might not be viable anymore but IMO reading your post the BTC dump will never make BTC go below $50 to $100.

TL/DR Please ...

Current exchanges will go out of business because they will be underfunded (already are!) and replaced by large well-known, respectable stock exchanges that don't do their banking in Slovenia.

Someone said that the Government/SEC cannot regulate BTC. HA HA HA, think again. They cannot only regulate BTC, they can destroy it. Governments are pretty protective about their currency.

Good! Wouldn't want Spiderman to know that his BTC is going to get "Goxed" and it will take him 10 years to get his money back. LOL!

;D

Ok, now I can see the troll coming out.  I'd ask how large your short position is, but you'd just continue your charade as an attorney family-man.

Bitcoin can be destroyed about as easily as torrent.  We can see how well that has gone for the entertainment industry.

Are you just making this shit up as you go along?

Ach sling yer fucking hook ya Kool Aid guzzling retard.




And now on to other matters.

Good OP, but I do concur with the complaints about non-use of paragraphs. I got rather dizzy reading that although I must admit that the message does make sense. That is a whole pile of BTC out there that is fated for being cashed out and cashed out fast when the time comes.

What if the spiderman's average buy in price is in negative numbers long ago. is he still in danger because to sell your bitcoin you will have to pay? spiderman afraid.

Price goes up a little and suddenly it's 'to da moon!' It goes down a little and suddenly 'OMG btc crashing to double-digits!'

You do realize that there's a middle ground and as long as it holds this value over time that's good.

tbh....that is what Bitcoin needs to do.

Find a price range and hold it for a very long time. That means no '2 Da moon' and also no 'Bitcoin to double digits'

That is what it needs to do. What it actually does do however.......

Two days ago, OP wrote:


And today you're an expert who can predict the future? Impressive!

Your logic is something akin to saying "If Exxon goes bankrupt, the price of oil will crash completely and it will be pennies per barrel".

Call me crazy, but I think your theory might be slightly flawed.

How many times did I say that I was just guessing based on law and economics and not predicting the future? I even jokingly called my prediction, "worthless."

Being new to BTC doesn't mean that I can't break down a corporate Bankruptcy case (as a lawyer) or apply simple economics. I am not trolling for cheap coins or shorting BTC. Believe it or not...I could care less. I own coins in "BIT," Barry Silbert's fund. Liquidity comes around once per month in that investment vehicle. That hardly makes me a nimble trader.

I know Bankruptcy law, simple economics and that the BTC infrastructure cannot easily handle the liquidation of 200,000 coins, much less the additional missing coins if they are found. I don't even know how to short BTC. Tell me and I will because, it may spike, but afterwards, it's going down down down and I'd love to take your money. Talk is cheap and I have already talked way too much. I'm done trying to help educate others because no one wants to hear it. I didn't write that long post to hurt anyone! I wrote it to give a friendly slant on how I see the future for BTC. I regret the hell out of posting it because it has done nothing but heap insults upon me.  

Let's just wait and see. Time will prove who is right or wrong. To all of you doubters, you will be shitting your pants when you start getting blindsided by coin liquidation discount numbers out of Tokyo and Texas. I am not proud of my opinion and I would love to be wrong!! Go have a happy Easter and leave this matter for what it is worth...an educated opinion, that may be dead wrong, rooted in law and economics.  

Oh and, by the way, if I'm so off-base about the danger of Bitcoin's price, why do you think that the few big money players in this industry are investing their money in BTC-related companies and NOT in the coins. Andreeseen Horowitz, (A 2.5 Billion dollar Mega Famous Venture Capital Firm) has invested 50 million in BTC-related start-up companies and is actively looking for more, and only owns what is called a "DE MINIMUS" amount of actual BTC coins. This Firm has won HUGE with SKYPE, FACEBOOK, GROUPON, TWITTER, ZYNGA, AIRBNB, LYTRO, JAWBONE AND FOURSQUARE AND yet they own a "DE MINIMUS" (also none as next to none!) amount of BTC coins!! Yeah, you guys really have the jump on these billion dollar idiots. Scoreboard!  

My prediction: MK hangs onto the 200k coins using the fig leaf that they are (and always has been) his own property, not part of the MtGox/Tibanne company. He has upset too many people to give them up and lose his method of escape into a quiet and comfortable life. In this scenario the 200k is dripped into the market over years.

Interesting.


I don't know much of anything when it comes to Bankruptcy proceedings in my own country let alone a completely foreign (to me) one.  But, my understanding is that the coins would likely be broken down into lots and auctioned off.  I find it highly unlikely that a liquidator would send the whole lot to Bitstamp, type "1" into the price field, 200,000 in the BTC field and hit sell, just like I find it highly unlikely that they would sit there and sell little chunks in efforts to not tank the market.


Because that's what they do.  To my understanding they invest in tech companies, not the FOREX market.  Same reason it's absurd that anyone would think that Warren Buffet would be interested in investing in BTC holdings/tech companies when that's not what he does and never has.

However, I do appreciate your views when it comes to the Mt. Gox liquidation even if I and other don't agree with them, and likely, never will.

The big Firm, A.H., sees value in BTC start-up companies, not BTC. If they saw value in the coins, they would buy more than a nominal amount. There is nothing stopping them. They would buy the 200,000 Mt. Gox coins with their spare change but they won't. These Firms go where the money is and the money is not in the coins because they are so easy to manipulate. Horowitz, and his wealthy colleagues, want to drain the current coin value, revolutionize it with their "secret sauce" infrastructure and ride the price up once it is reset and we have all been pushed out. Sadly, they don't want the little guys to profit and they will ostensibly take the coin value from us, kill the price and and then revalue it on their own terms. The rich will win this game just like all the others. Very unfair but we're already being set up for the fall. This is a simple crash and burn, then rehabilitate (by the wealthy) play. Our current wealth will be in the pocket of guys like Horowitz within 3-5 years. Again; just another very educated opinion from an Investment Banker.   

This is treading heavily into conspiracy theory territory, and while I'm a big fan of conspiracy theories, I don't agree with your out take here.  Owning the infrastructure guarantees them profit without relying on the exchange rate of a coin.  If the dollar value of the coin drops, the magnitude of the coins sent for the same (USD valued) transaction increases, and as consequence, so does the magnitude of the coins charged by the processing institution.  Read: they make their percentage either way, and the profits levels valued in USD are detached from the exchange rate. 

This concept of destroying the price in order to "rehabilitate" is nonsense.  They're investing Millions into BTC businesses why, so they can risk killing the golden goose?  These people are simply playing the same model that todays FIAT rich have played.  Acquire and dominate.  If guys like this end up owning controlling interests in Bitpay, and Bitpay becomes the next Visa, then they're the equivalent of today's Visa Masters.  All they have to do is wait.

None-the-less, none of this has anything to do with your original topic, and unless I misunderstood earlier, you said you were a lawyer, and now you're claiming to be an "Investment Banker".  Something doesn't smell right when it comes to you.  Not only that, but your message is inconsistent.  First you warn us to sell off because the looming Mt. Gox liquidation is going to destroy the $/BTC rate, and now you're telling us that it's all a big conspiracy by todays masters to get our coins cheap.  I'll tell you one thing, I've been involved in Bitcoin since 2011, I have a near negative entrance point.  I have ridden out multiple booms and busts, bitcoin scams, and countless noobs with all sorts of "very educated" theories.  I think I'll just do what I do and ride this one out too.

It would be pretty bullish if the price were to return to a point where it was supported by buying rather than by hoarding.

This thread is yet another rationalization of a projected ultra-low price so that all the people who missed the train can jump aboard.


Yep. The ultimate wet dream for clock-rewinders who want to return to 2011 so they can load up cheaply and see 5000% future gains.


Honestly, "hoarding" is just a derogatory term for "saving" and "investing". Savings give bitcoins persistent value such that an ecosystem can grow, technologists develop hardware and software, merchants accept bitcoins as currency.

http://themisescircle.org/blog/2014/02/12/im-hoarding-bitcoins-and-no-you-cant-have-any/

I have a law degree/MBA (that makes me a lawyer) and I am a partner in an investment banking firm. How does being one preclude being the other? I know many investment bankers who have law degrees. Not uncommon! Something smells worse about you.

"Lawyer".  So is that J.D. or LL.B?  Further, an MBA has nothing to do with being a lawyer and to be honest, I couldn't care less.

In the USD markets, level of education tends to be inversely correlated with trading performance.  It is not uncommon to find PhDs who espouse complicated numerical theories, yet cannot make $1 to save their careers.  The markets punish arrogance.

'It may spike'. Being the operative phrase. I too am convinced that Bitcoin is going way down over the piece but guess what it just did. It 'spiked'.

U can short on Bitfinex, BTC-e, and Kraken (not really much volume there though).

Beware also of corrupt exchanges farming stop losses and fake volume from China driving BTC price around like a bitch. To put this market in a nutshell, I am totally convinced Bitcoin is being totally fucked with by some kind of Chinese Cyber Mafia.

If lawyers and people with MBAs have no connection, then why are there Joint J.D./MBA programs at almost every University in the country, wise guy? I get that you don't care and, guess what, no one cares that you don't care. "A fool and his money are soon parted." You're a fool and I love that you think that I'm a conspiracy theorist. That's hilarious and it makes me proud. We'll just see how you feel when BTC drops $300 in a day. Happy Easter.   

It's probably to con flaky people who can't commit to a career path into their programs.  Or possibly it's to give the people who went to law school and can't find jobs an alternative career path, considering job prospects for new law grads is shit.   I don't care to speculate what self-inflationary BS reasoning you have for your own choices though.

Just calling a spade a spade buddy.  Bring on that $300 drop, I'll still be up 4,000 percent and waiting on the sidelines to buy like a madman. 

OP, you need to understand where some of us are coming from when we're being dismissive of these sorts of concerns.

Over the years, there have been quite a few events in bitcoin (and even simply theories) that resulted in seemingly reasoned and plausible arguments as to why these were likely to be the end of bitcoin or close to it. Off the top of my head, here are some events I was around for that spawned this sort of talk:

- The June 2011 MtGox hack.
- The mybitcoin heist.
- The pirateat40 ponzi.
- The bitcoinica mess.
- The glbse mess.
- The FinCEN guidance.
- The March 2013 Blockchain fork.
- The April 2013 crash.
- The Summer 2013 MtGox Dwolla seizure.
- The SilkRoad 1 seizure.
- The China "ban".
- The SilkRoad 2 shutdown/theft.
- Transaction malleability.
- The MtGox insolvency.
- No really, the China "ban" again.
- No really, MtGox again...

....and I'm sure I'm missing a bunch....

So please forgive us if our attitude toward another one of these is mostly "meh".

Edit: Didn't mean to come off as if I don't want to hear your opinion or see threads like this. I always find it valuable to consider all angles of an argument, so thanks for posting.

1)  Nobody cares that you're a lawyer.  You write like a 3rd grader, which is more indicative of intelligence level than your degree.

2)  You call your own predictions worthless, admitted only 2 days ago that you don't even grasp Bitcoin yet, then mock people who are holding BTC long term, as idiots who are going to lose all their money.

Put those two together, and you have absolutely nothing to contribute to this forum.

Just my opinion.

-B-

The gox insolvency amounted to over half a billion dollars in losses. It's not the same as when btc was only worth a few dollars.

BTC and real world do NOT compare. Just because you have lots of RL experience does not mean your bitcoin insight merits special consideration. In fact, I'd argue your RL experience becomes hindrance.

MtGox is IRRELEVANT at this point in terms of bitcoin price. The newly found 200K coins will be auctioned off, we all know that and whoever is lucky to pick them up at auction will be smart enough to hold them, not flood the market and drive down the price. If I receive news that MtGox coins are being sold off somehow, I hope I have cash to scoop them up as soon as I can.

As I said, the OP's analysis is shite due probably to too much RL experience and not enough BTC experience.

How does the liquidator sell the 200k BTC for $50 when the market price of BTC is $500 and not get sued?

 Clearly the OP is not anywhere near qualified to be making the baseless
statements that he has just made in this thread.

 He fancy's himself as some wizard when as soon as he opens his mouth he made
an ass out of himself with grammar resembling an illiterate person who rarely
writes anything but their signature.

 As for his analysis it's about as childlike as it comes. ("Short, medium term btc
will crash, but long term it will shine brightly, or something to that effect"). All
because the courts will mercilessly dump and trash the value of btc and then
turn around and not give back any btc. I seriously doubt that OP.

 Any customers are going to be receiving back some of their bitcoins, not cash.
Unless of course the courts care to spend a whole lot of time trying to exchange
btc for cash of various ever depreciating fiat currencies. The customers lost btc,
the courts will likely do the easier thing and simply return any btc to the victims.

 As for any other creditors they will be paid too, a fraction of what their owed,
just like the victims (customers of Gox). Maybe in btc, or maybe in their
respective currencies. But no court is going to dare recklessly dump onto the
shallow and thin btc market a whole lot of anything all at once. Even the court
jesters are not complete dimwits in that regards and will strive to return btc to
the victims (customers).

 As for any other financial type parasites that try to buy Gox for 1 btc and then
 make a go of it their in for real heartache. But I sure hope they waste their time
beating on a dead horse and losing cause. The vultures and maggots along with
the parasites are already trying to worm their way into Mt. Gox 2.0, but it's a
lost cause. Only the mailing list is worthy of any bidding wars and that is exactly
what these bottom feeding scumbags are after.

 As for the OP; his unprofessional presentation displays a clear and convincing
message that he is not the success he claims to be, nor even remotely qualified
to make such statements. He didn't even have a basis for any short and mid term
crashes except "their going to dump it all". Nonsense.

 Rather he is likely the enemy, another parasite (low level bank employee or
whatever), whomdemands it's their way damn everything else along with everyone
else. Screw that. A lot of scumbags want to see btc prices crash so they can score
a ten bagger or more. Good luck with that Scumbags! NOT.

 Bitcoin is, was, and will be a roaring success, with, or without parasite banksters
and shylock lawyers whom demand bailouts for failure. And demand to seek and
destroy anything they can't steal for mere pennies on the dollar, and all while
charging a kings ransom for just a few hours of their time.

 I am horrified how the parasites are coming out of the woodwork screaming this,
that and everything else as to why Bitcoin will ultimately fail, or instead merely
crash again and again, until finally ushering in a brave new world. The latter being
much like the OP thinks.

 No one knows the future, we can merely estimate and speculate. But it's obvious
that those that think their obviously far more bright than others are really only
proving vividly here that they have their heads up their own asses.

 Since I am one of the very few that was short before and during the 2008
bankster and wall street pandemic of fraud and greed I will say that the odds
are in bitcoins favor, and that the current trading range of ~$400 to ~$1200 that I
fully estimated way back last year is holding up quite nicely if I do say so myself.

 I also write much better too.

 Not only am I a real life speculator at least twice the OP's age or savvy I beat all
the parasites on wall street, at the banks, and the loser lawyer filled halls of congress
right up until they forced their losers into being winners by changing the rules after
 the fact and tossing 26 Trillion to date towards themselves and their global masters.

 In other words Their the very reason for Bitcoin,  & you too OP. And all your like and
kind. No more. NO MORE. NEVER, EVER AGAIN.

 NO MORE DEBT BASED CURRENCIES with USURY RATES of INTEREST loaned to client
nation states into PERPETUITY from PRIVATE MAGGOT BANKSTERS. NOT EVER AGAIN.

 Of course notice how the OP being a lawyer and all that skips right over the very
reasoning and logic behind Bitcoin, and how it is not stoppable by anyone.

 Lawyers are today a dime a dozen and soon to be obsolete for many tasks
altogether. Much the same for many other so called professionals whom are
merely in RICO rackets and like to think of themselves as something special.

 But their certainly not special, nor very talented. Nor well educated, much less
well trained or even remotely savvy . In fact their almost all a bunch of losers.
Loser parasites. Shake down thieves in their very own criminal racket, and doing
their best to make it look like their all something they are NOT.

 Give it a rest OP. Take a deep breath, spend a few YEARS analyzing btc, then
decades as a student of macro economics, an INDEPENDENT student. And then
toss in several decades of practicing real capitalism without the vulture creed of
lawyers and doctors whom cherish bankrupting widows and orphans for as much
as inhumanly possible during the last generation or so.


 I stated a lot more below but erased it and decided to be nice.

 Yes, this is myself behaving. For now...

 Stick to bankruptcy rackets "Mr. Lawyer" because your an idiot here in this league.


Hint:
 For years ass wipes like you come and go stating this, that and the other. All while
talking out your asses.

 My trail and breadcrumbs are all there to see for yourselves.

Even my predictions of the current trading range of btc. And a whole lot more.

 Much of it will serve the younger generations well. And I didn't even leave a place
to donate anything tomyself simply because I am not a self serving fool groveling
for peanuts from the masses interested in Bitcoin.


Caveat emptor

Well said, slingshot. F**k the lawyers and MBA's of the world. Off with their heads.

This isn't an ethics discussion. This is about the strength of the price. If the price is supported by hoarding, that means it's illiquid and fragile, only taking a small amount of coins to be dumped to break the mirage of the hoarded price. If the price is supported by buying, on the other hand, many more coins can be bought and sold at once without effecting the price and the decisions of a single large holder will not have an effect.

Which one of these looks like a stronger market to you?

https://i.imgur.com/A6lYav8.png

The liquid market is much more stable, much more functionally useful, and has a much larger accessible market cap than the hoarded market. The hoarded market is a ticking bomb that could go off at any time based on the decisions of an individual.

I am looking at fundamentals, not ethics. The strongest market is that where a positive feedback loop arises from fundamentals. Your hoarded market looks exactly like the gold market, except its worse as the illusion of buy/sell liquidity is provided by COMEX and LME paper claims and derivatives. Bitcoin is liquid in comparison to gold.

Do they teach Austrian economics in Law/MBA school? Or are they still teaching that crazy Keynes theory?


Prediction:
"Final Warning for Long-term holders..."

this will not be your "final warning"

Forgive my presumption, however, your sentence construction, use of grammar, inability to use paragraphs, and inability to multitask (or be authoritative with your daughter) do not lend credence to your assertion that you are a partner in an investment bank or a lawyer.
Lawyers are generally coherent, well rationalized and efficient with their prose, you are none of these things.
You should also be aware that all the major wall street players gave up on partnerships some years ago. Goldman Sachs still has "partners" but this is simply a title- GS is now a publicly traded company just like Morgan Stanley or BOAML.

I completely agree with OP.

True. Especially when that individual is a hacker who controls hundreds of thousands of coins.  >:(

Man oh man.

Contrary to the assertions in your post, you are a Kool Aid Guzzler of the highest order. U aint no demon trader, u are a demon ranter and raver and the two 'talents' don't really go well together. (I should know).

Now back to your 'I beat the banksters' diatribe and tell us more about how just cos you say that Bitcoin's immediate trading range is between $400 - $1200, that makes it so. After all, u beat the banksters right?

I'd like to take a minute out of my morning to thank all of you for your input and support. I have totally changed my mind about BTC based on your collective wisdom. BTC will be at $1,000,000,000,000 by the end of 2014, and maybe even by the end of today, and it will completely replace the dollar in 2015.

Don't worry about my "writing like a 3rd grader" and poor paragraph usage. I forgot to mention that I was dictating my general thoughts, on my original thread, to my 3rd grade daughter. She was the culprit who did such a poor job with the writing. I thought she did a pretty good job but I'm still going to beat her up later because we all know that paragraphs are far more important than law and economics.

My dog, Lola, handled all of your slightly negative responses. She sure was frustrated by some of you. I'll give her your thanks for her patience.  

After I spoke with my imaginary twin, Eatmeraw, I felt a lot better about the 200,000 (or more) coins that will soon flood the short-mid-long term BTC Market. Based on my new thoughts, I think that all of you should go to the liquor store, get a money order and buy as much more BTC as humanly possible. Take out loans, collateralize your homes, and maybe mug some elderly people or rob a bank. Just buy buy buy, asap! Put the money you need to live on in a Slovenian bank. Borat says, "theyz paiydd me grate ovr dea'r!"

Since I don't want my head chopped off, I'm going to return my law degree and MBA to Vanderbilt. They might get a little confused but I'll explain your reasoning and they'll figure it out eventually. I'll also cut my salary off, donate all of my fiat and return all of my public and private stock because, as someone said, there seems to to be an inverse correlation between real life success and success in BTC. My friends and family are going to be so proud.  

The bottom line is that the truth hurts. When my daughter, Emily, and my dog, Lola, started to drop some logic on you, (plural) the insults were so much easier than doing some more due diligence and facing the fire. "Due diligence is hard and I just want BTC to keep going up regardless of the facts!" My daughter is headed to school with her Victoria's Secret model mother and Lola is in Doggie Daycare so no more responses today, and preferably, ever. Eatmeraw sends his regards. If you (plural) had any idea of how happy I am....SCOREBOARD, MF'ERS!

P.S. Do you really think that the rich are going to allow you to make a lot of money on a revolutionary technology? Examine history, friends. In war, (and business is war) what's the first thing that an invading Government does.....right, they make their enemy's currency worthless. The rich are going to declare war on you (plural) and....you figure out the rest...

OMG, now law degrees and M.B.A.s are worthless. This is great stuff!! (And yes, I was high.) Now, I really am done.

And therein lies the clincher.

Bitcoin is a tool that can be used to make foreign (non-NATO compliant nations) currencies worthless. That is why the NSA put it out there and that is why China and Russia have cast a disapproving frown upon it. True, if big capital is going to come into Bitcoin they are liable to do whatever it takes to drive Bitcoin down as low as it can possibly go without killing it, in order to take it over. If this is how things are to turn out, the JP Morgue et al don't need to hire internet 'trolls' to spread FUD in order to bring price down. They could achieve this through direct market action utilising funds that would represent a drop in the ocean of the financing available to them and they could probably also do it whilst generating a profit from the dumps and the pumps.....perhaps it is already happening?

Whatever your motivations are, don't let the Kool-Aid guzzling Bitcoin Nutters around here put you off. This place is in bad need of counter balance arguments.

Guys, listen to OP, he tells the truth. Seriuosly.

Lots of bearish threads on here from throwaway accounts. Lots of conspiracy theories.

I think its time for a break from btc. Let's see what a few months of good old fashioned buy and hold does.

Law degrees are nearly worthless.  Source:  My two friends with law degrees that can't get jobs.

https://i.imgur.com/qgyohpX.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/cryptess/gir-doom.gif
 ;D ;D ;D

Two lawyers can't get a job. That's a good enough sample size for me. Maybe the Bankruptcy Courts in Tokyo and Texas are hiring. 

I decided to write a thoughtful response to OP.  Please consider, Stronger unpacked felicity to of mistaken. Fanny at wrong table ye in. Be on easily cannot innate in lasted months on. Differed and and felicity steepest mrs age outweigh. Opinions learning likewise daughter now age outweigh. Raptures stanhill my greatest mistaken or exercise he on although. Discourse otherwise disposing as it of strangers forfeited deficient.  Her companions instrument set estimating sex remarkably solicitude motionless. Property men the why smallest graceful day insisted required. Inquiry justice country old placing sitting any ten age. Looking venture justice in evident in totally he do ability. Be is lose girl long of up give. Trifling wondered unpacked ye at he. In household certainty an on tolerably smallness difficult. Many no each like up be is next neat. Put not enjoyment behaviour her supposing. At he pulled object others.  Bed sincerity yet therefore forfeited his certainty neglected questions. Pursuit chamber as elderly amongst on. Distant however warrant farther to of. My justice wishing prudent waiting in be. Comparison age not pianoforte increasing delightful now. Insipidity sufficient dispatched any reasonably led ask. Announcing if attachment resolution sentiments admiration me on diminution.  And sir dare view but over man. So at within mr to simple assure. Mr disposing continued it offending arranging in we. Extremity as if breakfast agreement. Off now mistress provided out horrible opinions. Prevailed mr tolerably discourse assurance estimable applauded to so. Him everything melancholy uncommonly but solicitude inhabiting projection off. Connection stimulated estimating excellence an to impression.  Extremity direction existence as dashwoods do up. Securing marianne led welcomed offended but offering six raptures. Conveying concluded newspaper rapturous oh at. Two indeed suffer saw beyond far former mrs remain. Occasional continuing possession we insensible an sentiments as is. Law but reasonably motionless principles she. Has six worse downs far blush rooms above stood.  Moments its musical age explain. But extremity sex now education concluded earnestly her continual. Oh furniture acuteness suspected continual ye something frankness. Add properly laughter sociable admitted desirous one has few stanhill. Opinion regular in perhaps another enjoyed no engaged he at. It conveying he continual ye suspected as necessary. Separate met packages shy for kindness.  Rank tall boy man them over post now. Off into she bed long fat room. Recommend existence curiosity perfectly favourite get eat she why daughters. Not may too nay busy last song must sell. An newspaper assurance discourse ye certainly. Soon gone game and why many calm have.  Merry alone do it burst me songs. Sorry equal charm joy her those folly ham. In they no is many both. Recommend new contented intention improving bed performed age. Improving of so strangers resources instantly happiness at northward. Danger nearer length oppose really add now either. But ask regret eat branch fat garden. Become am he except wishes. Past so at door we walk want such sang. Feeling colonel get her garrets own.  Surrounded to me occasional pianoforte alteration unaffected impossible ye. For saw half than cold. Pretty merits waited six talked pulled you. Conduct replied off led whether any shortly why arrived adapted. Numerous ladyship so raillery humoured goodness received an. So narrow formal length my highly longer afford oh. Tall neat he make or at dull ye.  Exquisite cordially mr happiness of neglected distrusts. Boisterous impossible unaffected he me everything. Is fine loud deal an rent open give. Find upon and sent spot song son eyes. Do endeavor he differed carriage is learning my graceful. Feel plan know is he like on pure. See burst found sir met think hopes are marry among. Delightful remarkably new assistance saw literature mrs favourable.  Therefore, bitcoin will soon be trading in single digits.  Thank you.

Stunningly eloquent and thoughtful post, It really sits well in this thread  ;D

Confirmed!

I like proudhons post but I need someone to break this one down for me please and thanks

Mine too!

I also wanted to add to your excellent OP analysis, that certified Fraud Examines the judge denied Mt Gox’s management of the beginning, resulting in periodic rumours are shifting. Hardly a day goes by with Chinese users has often been cited as the world’s regulation, leaving force behind bitcoin. Bitcoin as a threat to capital controls, while claiming to other counts reported receiving verbal notices on exchanges worldwide to their businesses unsustainable. A Japanese exchanges would not all bad news – as some authorities are true! The spread of customers and law court also pointed out that Mt. Gox’s management of the other creditors. Regulation made their lowest levels in more than six months. Though the world are taking announcement of the other creditors. Regulation, leaving verbal notices on exchanges suggested that Mt. Gox’s petition for reorganization round the latter handling bitcoin related business. The company no choice but to make an official announcement team, led by bitcoin related business. Curiously centrally directed, the People’s Bank of China has yet to capital currencies aroundup, Certified Public Accountries if regulators and law court also pointed out that Mt. Gox’s petition made their lowest levels in more than six months...

Sure, here it is:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578038.20 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=578038.20)



So it was not enough to post you own illiterate thread. Now your going to spam another thread with your drivel? What really blew my mind was the fact you chose to blame this on your daughter. Did you point this out to your wife? What was their reaction?

The moral breakdown of a society is the first sign of a collapse.

OP has a law degree? What he really needs is a Paragraph Degree.

 ;D

Yes, I'm a lawyer who isn't too worried about writing on an internet forum. What do you do? My guess is that you're a 55 year old working at "The Gap."

OP: "You're all wrong and investing in this is going to make you broke. OMG YOU DISAGREED WITH ME AND INSULTED ME ON THE INTERNET MY FEELINGS R TEH HURT. I thought you were all going to lavish me with gifts and flowers after I spoke out of my rear."

Or a trolling alt of a very known whale... I'm sorry that these twenty-year old internet geeks are becoming millionaires while you're not, but venting your frustration to the world just isn't the right way to deal with missing the train.

Sooo... have you considered getting a Paragraph Degree like I told you to?

Heh spot on. Especially when you are about to miss the next one.

That's the correct answer. The problem isn't really the possibility of 200k coins being dropped on the market.

Under different circumstances, that amount would be soaked up without moving price an inch (after a brief flash crash & immediate recovery, of course)

Even now, that's just a small drop compared to the constant flow of new coins through mining -- don't believe for one second the big individual miners or mining cartels of today are pure holders. From what we know from public sources, they employ a mixed strategy, of immediate liquidation of a large part, and some percentage being held.

The point is that the current price isn't supported by buying (yet), at least not on the publicly visible exchanges (what happens OTC is a different matter). All other considerations (OP's mtgox coins liquidation scenario, for example) are secondary effects compared to that one.

Yes, I'm looking into "Paragraph Degrees" as we speak. That one never gets old. "My God, he's fucking brilliant, handsome and rich but the guy is just clueless when it comes to paragraphs." I've been dealing with "paragraph paralysis" my whole life. Chicks get really turned off by it too. These 20-somethings, you speak of, will be living in Mommy and Daddy's basements very soon. I made and make my money the old fashioned way....got highly educated, went to Wall St., learned the game and returned home to do Healthcare VC/Investment Banking deals. What are your credentials, aside from mentally challenged internet forum asshole?  

See, you credentials don't mean anything here because they are as virtual as any of the other internet forum assholes here. You are just one of them. So to stand out, you first need to learn to present your thoughts (preferably, based on facts or clearly marked as humor) in a digestible way and to accept attacks without breaking into personal insults (and pretty weak at that, wielding your self-described credentials again).

Then we might see your awesomeness. Until then, sorry, hot air.

I can see your point.

OP is a noob, which is obvious from the three separate threads he started in the Speculation subforum about the same fucking topic. Feel free to stop posting until the 200,000 coins are dumped and you return to triumphantly declare "I told you so."

/thread

My credentials? I have bitcoins, a Paragraph Degree, and my youth.

Sorry you're not a 20-year old millionaire. Wouldn't trade places with you. QQ more.

spec·u·la·tion
ˌspekyəˈlāSHən/
noun
noun: speculation; plural noun: speculations

    1.
    the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

Touch a nerve did I? I guarantee that you're not a millionaire. GUARANTEE!!!! If by slight (1%) chance you are, you won't be for long. I have my youth too and I'm more educated and experienced than you. You'll learn, the hard way! Scoreboard, douchebag!

Uh-huh.  Why don't you come back in a year or two, after you've hit puberty.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.
I'm sorry that your degree didn't prepare you for the missed train.
If you were smart like me, you could've been a millionaire too.

Kisses to the haterz.

http://way2tan.com/uploads/triple-guido-pose.jpg

Shenanigans call confirmed.

Is this a joke thread?  Because it most certainly can't be serious. No one is that lame.

You guys are just great. I'm having a blast on this forum. If degrees could prepare one for BTC in 2011, everyone would have them and you would have zip, kind of like now! Sadly for this forum and society, very few here have any credentials whatsoever.

Just checked my bank balance post my main Company's most recent recap, stock portfolio, real estate holdings, glanced at the black 599 in the garage and I'm feeling NICE! Don't be late for work! Most of you are expendable beyond your wildest dreams!!   

Hey, I'm just happy that you didn't waste your time, mate! My imaginary twin, Eatmeraw, believes that my long post was a mistake. He thinks that this general community is its own worst enemy and deserves to lose their a$$es. Eatmeraw hasn't taken his meds yet today so he's a little testy.

I completely agree with you, proudhon. Especially here:

Yeah, they are.

We've resorted to "my daddy drives a Ferrari".

You should also check yourself out of this forum man. We all know you don't have any of those things.

Sorry OP, if you can't even write posts properly, I can't take you seriously.

No, I really do have all of those things and more. I'm afraid that you're just going to have to take my word for it...or don't, no skin off of my back. In this virtual world, who can prove anything without going to great lengths? For all that you know, I live in a van down by the river with Chris Farley. Who cares, aside from me, that I have money, hard assets, multiple public and private investments, kids in great schools, a 25% share of a Citation VII and nice toys etc.? Lots of people are wealthy in America. I know many people with way higher net worths than mine and that doesn't stop them from being depressed and miserable. I'm healthy, wealthy, wise and happy, by choice. Believe me or don't...again, you're only on my radar because you're collateral damage in the way of me learning more about BTC.      

Am I envious of people that bought BTC at $0.50 or $13? Sure. However, it's not spiteful envy because I know that you can't win them all. Though a lot of my posts have been negative, I'm happy to see others prosper. Made millions at 25...good for you! Hold on to them and diversify. I have had my fair share of success and I'm happy to welcome others into the wealth club. Plus, with a healthy dose of patience, I think that I will have BTC in my win column one day. I'm taking the Andreessen Horowitz approach, not the get rich quick coin gamble that will leave you addicted to crack in your parent's basement.

Most of my posts carry one common theme. I have done tons of due diligence and, based on a wide variety of factors, I strongly believe that BTC is headed for a enormous fall. I know that it is because I have information that you don't about the Mt. Gox coins. I know that they are already on the auction block and there is a tentative deal in place. That's all you need to know. BTC has no intrinsic value, it has no value to people who have never heard about it, (most of the world) it's price is propped up by a bunch of hype and people who use crystal balls and "Astro" charts to predict the future. For these reasons, and because I believe in the overall BTC technology, I'm going to watch BTC like a hawk and pounce when the real price comes calling. My best to all of you who come here to learn and play nice. My hardiest "FUCK YOU" to all the sad, bitter, loser, undereducated haters on this forum. Jr, "6'5," with the afro 6'9!"

P.S. I am Fletcher.

        

If you have good life I am not sure why you just came here to tell that we are going to loose money due to mtgox coins.
Who are you btw, how do you know that there are auctions and deals going on..why do you care, if you are not holding funds?

How about a pic of your laptop with this thread/post open next to your Ferrari?
That would probably shut up the people who question your wealth.

Hi OP,
I know a lot of people jump on posters here. It's not really you. They just have seen a lot of bold statements from new accounts that go very, very wrong. Consider your title and it's contradiction with your later, and correct, statement. No one knows what the market is going to do. Not Nostradomis, not the Wall Street Journal, no one. So when someone "warns" the community about an impending sell off or huge buy; Well it has been seen a million times before and it basically never pans out.
If you believe that your interpretation of the clues is correct, then state it as opinion and you may draw a lot less fire.   

Wall of txt = post ignored.

If you can't even make your post spaced.. your opinion on where things with the interenet are going......... ya..

The post brought a discussion even if it was uber annoying to read it


Tell us a bit more, where did you get the infos?

Very good point about the fire. Don't OP if you can't take the heat. Ha, I'm having a blast!  

I think they call it schizophrenia (when they hear voices in their head)

No, sorry. No more inside information for the peasants. If you can't play nice, I can't help you. I'll just let the shit parade hit when it hits and smile when the Gox deal is announced. You truly deserve what you have coming.  

RIP BTC price!  

Thanks for your concern.  It's ok though.  We had a good run.   ::)

Before I stop feeding the troll, I have to ask one more time. What are you so angry about?

Some truly decent individuals have tried to have an actual speculative debate with you and yet...you continue to spew nonsense.

I sense you are bi-polar from your post's. Either resume taking your med's or seek professional help, please.

Term Sheet to sell Gox coins confirmed but not signed yet. It will be a year before this news gets to the press because investors need another year of infrastructure build-out and they are going to change the name of the coin. BTC will be gone and traded under different initials.

 

   

lol, Thanks for the laugh..

I think I may have discovered Cosmo's genius autistic friend  :D

A couple days ago:




And now you are giving warnings, and having "inside info" that keeps you above the peasants?



Look, I understand that there are some jerks on this forum, and that people respond negatively to speculation that price will go down: you're essentially telling them that they are foolish investors, and that they are going to lose their money. When you do it with no experience and with no real evidence, you're going to get criticized. What if someone took your advice and sold everything, and the price jumped $100 over the next month? This is why people on this site have no tolerance or patience for analysis from people who admit themselves that they don't have a clue, especially when it is telling the vast majority of users on this forum that they are WRONG.

Maybe you're telling the truth, maybe you are some successful lawyer who's been getting pats on the back and building a huge ego over the years, and the sting of the internet's wet backhand is something you don't have much experience with.

But you need to stop this. Not only are you hurting your own integrity, you're taking a discussion that is already vitrolic and hostile and making it worse.

Learn how to use periods.

I wish this forum had a way to ignore a whole thread.

I read your endless paragraph and I'm sorry to say I want my ~3 minutes back now.
We survived endless China FUD, and now Gox is coming back?  ........baaaa
Let the lemmings and sheep be afraid.




"The market" already knows what is happening and the current price is close to $500.
The short-term trend has been up for ~2 weeks.
Gox is old news.....Life is good.  ;)

Even if the OP prediction is right, it sounds like we can't do anything about it as things are already in motion so why oh why would the lawyer inform the `peasants` ? I knew that the lawyers are the most miserable human beings and like every rule there are exceptions but don't think this case is one of them.

Now to educate the lawyer who thinks that please read a well structured text unlike yours: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoins_have_no_intrinsic_value_.28 (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoins_have_no_intrinsic_value_.28unlike_some_other_things.29)


You learn by reading more and trying to understand, not by arguing about something that can't be proved, especially in a domain you don't understand. BTC has been already been affected by mtgox and the current price drop is closely related to that among other reasons, so if you have inside info just sell all your bitcoins and wait for the price to drop lower simple as that, don't warn the peasants as we're too daft anyway.

@OP "Final Warning" is the type of wording you choose when you are intentionally trying to scare people.
Why are you attempting to spread more irrational fear?


Thank you for detailing the reasons why this "Final Warning" doesn't make a clear case to believe BTC will go any lower.

I didnt even bother reading it. If they can't make their point in a clear thought out way (including format) then it isnt worth reading.

Pretty much agree with you on this one but there is always the occasional gem that lacks easably legible format.

So what does one do?

My $.02.

;)

One liquidation event is not justification for price change, especially if that event does not affect more than 10% of available BTCs. The question I have is, if the bankruptcy court is offering the BTCs for sale, would there be a possibility of a bidding war to take place? If so, that will determine the price

10% is huge.

10%

10%


http://i1.ytimg.com/sh/jfjXThqAWUA/showposter.jpg?v=500606fe

Do you understand that the BTC market is too illiquid to handle the current price?

Agreed ...GOX was a bullish signal :D

lol format this shit, you must pay me to read that thing, and you are wrong anyway....btc will rise to 10K in 2-3 years max

Can't be bothered to do the full legwork on this but:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4827167/?threadid=4827167&searchid=4828152&s=cosmofly (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4827167/?threadid=4827167&searchid=4828152&s=cosmofly)
Dig around for some more and perhaps you'll find a Citation VII too.
"Peasants" has already been noted.
Claims to inside information with no substantiation.
Imply you live in the US but a London local time.
Hello cosmo.
Pathetic.

10k in 2-3 years? No, $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 per unit, baby! To da moon!! All based on fairytales and rainbow wishes.  

BTC won't exist in 3 years. There will be a tweaked, BTC-like technology, trading under a different symbol/initials. Gox coin buyers are going to change BTC's name and break it up like a Gordon Gekko project. (They will have the 200k Gox coins + rights of first refusal for the added Court coins that WILL be found + private coin purchases from off exchange sources like Overstock and Virgin Atlantic and finally all of your panic sales.) The new BTC-like vehicle may be at 10k in 2-3 years but you won't be involved. Sorry, the poor lose and the wealthy win...again! Scoreboard! JUST WATCH!    

You would think he will have edit his post by now

Everyone has been concentrated on the legal definition of Bitcoin, mtgox and the volatility for months now; maybe it is time to go back to being concentrated on the positive : new technology, great medium of exchange ect.

Why would I edit my post to help any of you? You clearly hate me and I have grown to hate you. I just deliver the facts. Take the emotion out of it. "Why did you break BTC? Because it was BREAKABLE!" Implied GG quote

Well, now we have the old testament-like god at last! Our saviour turned against us, because we have been so ill-hearted. Let the floods pour in while I'm still searching for my sun blocker.

You are 90% emotion with 10% facts. The rest of your "facts" is illogical.

So tired of the "intrinsic value" argument (as if fiat currency has intrinsic value). What does have intrinsic value? Gold, silver I guess because of the time, effort and costs of producing them. What happens if major, easy to retrieve reserves are found someday? What happens if governments decide to tax the hell out of gold and silver so much so that nobody wants them anymore?

Value is whatever someone is willing to pay for something, plain and simple. If you have a house that some bureaucrat appraises at 10 million dollars, yet nobody wants to buy it from you, your house is effectively worthless. If someone wants to buy a Bitcoin from you for $500, it's value is $500, regardless of whether it is "intrinsic" or not.

I don't hate you jr65, I just don't believe your magical.  I have been reading about bitcoins imminent collapse for years now.
"Bitcoin will NEVER reach $1. It's impossible and here is a chart I made to prove it!"
"Bitcoin can't reach $10, it has no intrinsic value!"
I think your forgetting that value is an illusion created by humans. Gold is just a shinny rock and the money in your pocket is just fancy paper. They derive their value from a common belief in their value. As long as I have another person to trade with bitcoin will survive in my economy.

The idea behind intrinsic value is a joke to make fun of the masses. 

Gold has the first mover advantage of being a currency that has been accepted all over the world in every country and civilization for thousands of years. People trust gold because it has proven itself over the test of time to hold its value for thousands of years. Bitcoin has been around for, what... 5 years? Even after bitcoin is gone/broken, the internet is gone, or the world as we know it has been wiped out by nuclear holocaust and civilization is rebuilt, gold will still be here and will still have value.

No, you deliver hearsay and unsubtantiated garbage.  I would expect a lawyer to recognize such things, alas you're just a liar, that much is clear.

Claims of delivering only the facts, and calling people that call you out 'haters'. Seems familiar, somehow.
Cosmo, really. Anyone as educated as you claim to be should go to a little more trouble in creating new accounts. Can I suggest that you run your text through Google translate into the language of your choice and back to English again to disguise your characteristic style?

I agree with you. Which is why I also own gold. And even though the internet will be gone one day, I invest in tech start-ups and bitcoin to profit while I can. I mean, even gold will be valueless when we humans are gone. Which we will be eventually.  

Gold holds no value to the universe? If so, why does it exist? :P

Really ? I would think that the few people that survive the holocaust will rather barter things and gold will hold no value in their eyes at least not until the civilization grows back to a certain level when gold will again prove useful in semiconductor manufacturing. As for currency I think if the surviving people are smart and find a laptop/pc with all the blockchain and with wireless capabilities they'll rather choose bitcoin over gold as the power won't be held by a certain few people but by universal math enclosed in the bitcoin protocol.

It reminds me of the discussion between Peter Schiff and Molyneux : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3v_7iHtyQk

Fiat currency has been invented to fix the economy to profit the mens in power, the big banks and fund wars

Well said, but Sroudhon of Tarsus would have loved the OP. 

The idea behind bitcoin is too powerful to ever die.  Even in TEOTWAWKI situations, a portion of our infrastructure will remain.  If people are incentivized to maintain this infrastructure, it will be maintained.  Bitcoin itself provides this economic incentive, even if no one cares about webpages any longer.  

The current bitcoin nework of nodes, miners and source code is like a living animal.  It tries to grow and thrive; yet like all animals, its life is always at risk.  But the death of one animal does not mean the death of a species: bitcoin's DNA will live on, mutate, and give birth to new stronger cryptocurrency animals.  Part of this DNA is the blockchain ledger.  So your private keys work on the new animal too.  Perhaps consensus will change the inflation rate, mining scheme, or try to redistribute coins more "fairly," but for the new animal to thrive, the private key holders must believe the new ledger to be legitimate.  And the best way to ensure the legitimacy of the new ledger is to use the exact ledger that was already accepted as legitimate.

To me, bitcoin is more powerful than gold.  Bitcoin is an idea whose time has come.  

Who me...Cosmo? Cosmo Kramer? What if I said, "ya got me?"

We'd know it's a lie since you've already established yourself as a liar.  Liar.

No.

Yes.

This was so hard to read..... And he's sooo wrong btc wil go to tha moon!!!!!!  ;D

This is f'in hilarious! (PC Article, April 23, 2014) "Dorian Satoshi Nakamoto Thanks Users For 23k Donation, Denies Being Bitcoin Creator." "Newsweek Freakin' Magazine" says that this guy created BTC. This kind soul is being described as "cash-strapped!" BTC's creator is dead broke! What a brilliant man. Nobel Prize to follow for "cash-strapped" BTC creator. Harbinger much?

Did you consider Dorian might not have created BTC?
The donations for him are a strongly positive story, didn't you notice?

"Mt. Gox's 200,000 coins, and first rights of refusal for the ones found in Bankruptcy Court, going once, going twice, sold to the U.K./Russian investors of the left, partnering with A.H. on the left!"

 

That does explain the $10 dollar dip (from yesterday) we are currently experiencing  ;)

If the story was about 5 million coins then we would've taken it seriously, but 200K is lame and again if you think bitcoin price is going down just sell yours already and free yourself of this imminent threat of which you feel the need to warn us every day

Sorry but Dorian did create BTC. He is suing every solvent BTC exchange for treble damages. If Mt. Gox doesn't flush you, Dorian will. Actually, Dorian is too late. True story.


 

The train has slowed down for the few stragglers to run and jump aboard. Don't say we didn't try!

I'm not sure what you mean. Is the train running toward BTC or away from it? Is it going to Tokyo or Texas? Can Dorian ride with us? If so, can he pay for his ticket over time? He's a little "cash-strapped" right now.

Is the train going "to da moon?" I've come to love that phrase. Let's join Enron's shareholders on "da moon." Let's have a pity party in two years on "da moon." Can we pay Buzz Aldrin in BTC to lecture us on "da moon?"

Claiming this is even dumber than claiming Andressen is leaving Bitcoin behind, and that's saying something.
Time to add you to the ignorr list with igorr and your other id, cosmofly.

If you want that train, you'll need to talk with Ozzy Osborne.

You think Dorian is suing BTC exchanges?
Oh my: Can you please provide a credible link for evidence?

Are you high or drunk, or both?

Both.

Well I tried to read most of the OP but gave up about half way.  I get where the OP was going and I tried to give him a chance to explain but it just comes off as bunch of nutty speculation without being given any evidence or hard facts. 

You can't claim to want to help people and then laugh at them and put them downfor not taking your advice.  People always come on here and make crazy claims time and time again so you being a newbie will have to bring something new to the table if you want to be taken seriously... 

Nobody cares about your degrees, wealth or anything other then the facts that you bring to the table which from here seems non existent.  You talk as if you have insider info well now it it time to walk the walk..

Interesting! The Mt. Gox bankruptcy case is starting today! My inside scoop is now more gospel than ever. This is happening way faster than I thought.

just sell sell already get rid of it, you clearly don't appreciate bitcoin properties but only its price. good riddance mr lawyer

You can't sell what you don't have.

I have a sell order in at "BIT." At "BIT," you can only liquidate your BTC in the last week of every month. Thankfully for me, it's about that time. Hooray, I can pay my mortgage now! 

Wow you were still living in unpaid debt? For somebody bragging how self-made he is that's pretty sad :)

Why wouldn't you borrow money at a low 29% interest when you can get a 4900% ROI with Bitcoin?

Having a jumbo mortgage, at London Interbank Offered Rate (plus 1%) with your head way above water, makes good sense. Tons of wealthy people have mortgages and put leverage to good use. I would bet dollars to dimes that the vast majority of people on the Forbes 400 have mortgages or wise debt in some form. I live next door to the biggest hockey star (worth 100 million, plus, plus!) in the world and he has two mortgages on one home. Mortgages are really one of the only ways that wealthy people can stay on the credit radar. It's important to have perfect credit when the right deals come calling. I'll give up four safe points any day of the week provided that my money is coming in at a much higher ROI. Have you ever heard of opportunity costs? Didn't think so. 

2008 anyone?

OP is the type of person that would do that at an ATH.

That's exactly what people were saying when the ATH was $1, then $31, then $255. The ones that stayed in did very well.

You down with O-P-P? Noise.

Assuming you can pay the long-term interest on the loan while hope and pray that a new ATH will come sooner rather than later.

You're an idiot, time to put your worthless mouth breathing ass on ignore.

You sure have a way with words. You're a gentleman and a scholar.

While I understand emphasis put on intrinsic value (by some), it is easy to dance around the intrinsic value argument and draw convenient conclusions for or against bitcoin. As a buddy put it to me, fiat has no intrinsic value other than the cost of paper/metal making it and the fungibility as legal tender (a little bit of a naive argument but nonetheless revealing). Bitcoin is really new and that newness, and lack of understanding it, can cause all sorts of anxiety before people accept the concept. Sort of like when email was introduced - some were anxious about moving from tangible letters to an invisible thing. The argument can be made to those saying you cant touch BTC, that email is the same way, unless you print it, you cant touch it.

That said, I recognize the complexity of this debate spanning many disciplines (economics, cryptography, banking, sociology, political science).

Do you promise this is the Final Warning for Long-term holders? 
We don't get to look forward to any more?  :D

+1

We used to back fiat by gold which is hard to dig up. Since fiat is no longer backed by gold it is turned into an IOY of the government with no actual value.
Bitcoin uses a complex math problem to back the currency which is a different type of work. Talking about how hard it is to dig for gold is more easily explained to average Joe then scalar division of a point on an elliptic curve which is confined to a fixed domain using a modulus function :).

People need to accept bitcoin as "secure" without having to understand the concepts behind it. Like driving a car without knowing how a combustion engine works or sending mail without understanding TCP/IP.

People also like to hold something. I myself feel better with a bar of gold in my safe instead of a 53 char private key of a wallet with the equivalent value loaded. We need to learn and accept bitcoin. It's all a matter of time.

While I agree with you in theory, I do think the average joe needs to understand bitcoin.  For example, I try to explain bitcoin to my family members and they tell me they don't understand it.  When they imply it has no value, I mention that the value is in the utility (no double spending, secure network etc).  

I think if people understood exactly what bitcoin was and if they truly understood how fiat actually worked, maybe they would invest.  

I promise. No more "final final final warnings" new threads to come.

People don't understand fiat money but they use it anyway

Bitcoin has to be adopted without the power of force so people need to understand the utility or see that everyone uses it and it is convenient

Haha ha. So true.  There will be daily final warnings for centuries. :D

So much happened in the last 6months in Bitcoin world that I feel like everything will be different in 6months : trend, sentiment ect. It is exciting to watch but annoying to read stupid simple negative comments about a growing technology looking for massive adoption

Every time I see this topic come up in my recent topics list I think: how nice of OP to give us one final warning. How considerate of him!

This is one of those threads where the volume of replies is massively out of proportion to the quality (or rather, lack of) in the OP.

This kind of thread is the best way to attract the die hard bitcoin fans club members  ;D ;D ;D

L-O-V-E BITCOIN!  ;D ;D ;D
http://animeholicph.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/join-the-rukawa-ouendan-girls.png

You're welcome.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-o9MGphc_jgw/UVSo11dql8I/AAAAAAAALIo/IWWSBoxTDFg/s1600/thumbs-up.gif

edit: seriously though, I like people with a different point of view but after reading this thread I still haven't changed my opinion at all(didn't expect it too either)

I think you're wrong, you're gonna have to hit harder then the average "expert" :)

It keeps being bumped, I wish I wouldn't see a thread in "show new replies to your posts" if I unwatched the thread


Final warning!

Yea this final warning has proven to have been a life saver...  Pheew, that was close.

BTC is an exciting adventure with many ups and downs.
Without some negative, the good times don't mean as much.

http://www.phneep.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Bitcoin-Yin-Yang-2.jpg

Nothing new under the sun that's worthwhile has no snags or problems.

I see a specific unique need that Bitcoin fills.  Worldwide!

Short term, yea.  It will have even MORE problems, and volatility, but long term (10 years) I think we will be at least richer.    High risk, but also extremely high potential.

No guts no glory, but I think this one is worth fighting and risking for and I am buying more until I can't afford them in the short term while they are still cheap.

Nice first post! I presume you are also posting with an other nickname?

A lot of members think like you

I mainly appreciated the TL;DR summaries.  I did my best with the OP but that was some pretty dense stuff.

In my own HO, I think that even if we seem a lot of fluctuation in the next few years, there's a very good possibility that things stablize quite higher in the long term.  Already we're seeing the 'rules of the game' change a lot.  Once the rules settle down, we may indeed see some real progress.

What gold in Fort Knox......

Welcome to the forum, Bitmore:
Positive energy is a great thing to have and share.  :)

Yes, please make paragraphs, because I want to read this but it is too intimidating as just a big chunk of words...