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Title: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: DiamondCardz on April 20, 2014, 02:40:54 PM As in 2013, it seems the trend has continued - a massive influx of users, both new and old, has continued to hit the Lending section with more and more loans being asked for daily. Due to scams a "rule" has been created which, while not currently "enforced", is basically a minimum requirement to get a loan. Note that this isn't an official forum rule, it's just a rule that most lenders will follow.
The rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" means that in order to get a loan you must give collateral that is equal, or preferably higher to the amount you are being loaned. If you completely ignore this sticky and make a loan request with no collateral, without having massive trust on the forum, the chances of you getting negative trusted feedback and therefore having a Trade with Extreme Caution tag is almost 100%. In general the amount lenders will be looking for is collateral equal to 110%-120% of the amount you are being loaned. Why is this? Well, first, they want to discourage you from running off with the funds. Collateral also needs to be something that can easily be sold, which brings me to my second point - your $500 worth of ink isn't going to cut it as collateral. Normally lenders will want things such as Altcoins or precious metals, although things that can be sent electronically are preferred. A common question is why don't I just sell my collateral? Well the reasoning behind collateral is that you think it's going to appreciate in price or do not want to sell it, encouraging you to pay back the loan to have your collateral returned. However, you must also watch out for collateral scammers. These guys take your collateral and run, without sending you the loan. Avoid this by using escrow. This applies to lenders too - for your own sake, please follow this rule, both for your wallet and to discourage scammers from coming here. The below post is also part of this [EDU]. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Jan 26 2018----- Post by: Vod on April 20, 2014, 06:03:16 PM What is considered collateral?
Collateral is something that can easily be resold to cover the loan value plus interest should the loaner default on the loan. - The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Ethereum (also written as ETH). Coins must be moderately traded on multiple exchanges. - Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. - Small valuable items that can be shipped though the mail - i.e. gold, silver, iphones, etc. - Large items, such as a motorcycle or guitar can be used if you live close to the person giving you the loan. Try localbitcoins.com What is not considered collateral? - Merit. Bitcointalk Merit is not a commodity and is not meant to be traded. Asking or doing so may get you negative trust (Trade with Extreme Caution!) - Items they want to sell. They don't want it back, so they will default. It's scammy unethical behavior and will lead to negative trust. Check their recent posts! - Items not in hand. Don't trust a user that promises to give you something *when* they default! Tracking numbers only show something has been mailed - it could be an empty box. - Future income. You can prove you'll make xx coins in the next few days, but nothing forces you to send those coins to pay your debt. - Identification. So what if they can prove who they are. Are you going to spend more money and time taking them to court on untested legal grounds? You'll probably just walk away, like everyone does. ID is useless. - Games codes or similar. To verify the collateral you need to use the code, which destroys the collateral. Consider this a purchase, not a loan. (Post in Digital Goods instead) - Most new alt-coins or alt-coins that trade for satoshis are not good collateral as they can become worthless overnight. - Most pre-coins/tokens are worthless, or may take significant time to be worth anything. - Paypal should never be used - they are anti-bitcoin and will rule against you 100% of the time. Escrow can't even help, as paypal charge backs can come over six months later! - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) Examples: Steam When should you use Escrow? - Never send collateral directly to a low activity/post account offering you a loan, as they are likely to take your coins and disappear. (Collateral Scam) - Use only "Legendary Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the time they have spent here. - Do not use a third party escrow service unless hero members can vouch for it - it's too easy to create a website, do a few escrows then disappear with a big balance. Rinse and repeat. - A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0) When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. The new "Merit" system highlights thoughtful or useful posts, but gives no indication of trustworthiness. Ignore the sob stories that users post - it's just a scam to get your coins. If a person really is in such a situation, they can turn to family, friends or other social circles they frequent. They are just posting in our community because the payment is anonymous and irreversible. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: KWH on April 21, 2014, 12:51:47 AM Maybe add the accepted collateral requirements as well, have it all in one sticky.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: sonysasankan on April 21, 2014, 04:01:36 AM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit.
In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on April 21, 2014, 11:11:41 AM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) It is a sticky, yes. Now I wouldn't ban users who do that but I do support actually moderating the Lending section and putting criteria in place for a loan, and deleting clear scams (sympathy loan scams etc.) instantly. Posts that clearly ignore the criteria could also be deleted just as the Giveaway threads are. Of course until theymos sees the issue in the Lending forum, that's not gonna happen. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: Crypto.Conyo on April 21, 2014, 11:13:16 AM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) I agree. Even if it is not a forum rule, it could be a section rule. All requests for a loan without a collateral, should be closed. If a user insists with these kind of requests, must be banned. More than the 90% of the posts in this section is currently pure garbage. CC. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on April 21, 2014, 11:18:02 AM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) I agree. Even if it is not a forum rule, it could be a section rule. All requests for a loan without a collateral, should be closed. If a user insists with these kind of requests, must be banned. More than the 90% of the posts in this section is currently pure garbage. CC. No, not all, but I do agree there should be criteria put in place (information, etc.) rather than some of the 10 word loan requests we get which are basically spam. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: sonysasankan on April 21, 2014, 05:22:53 PM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) I agree. Even if it is not a forum rule, it could be a section rule. All requests for a loan without a collateral, should be closed. If a user insists with these kind of requests, must be banned. More than the 90% of the posts in this section is currently pure garbage. CC. Or maybe create split on the loans section. It could be like the Marketplace in bitcoins and the other marketplace inside the altcoin subsection. Only in this case the two would be residing in the same section. One where altcoins for collateral is compulsory. The other one can be non-alt coins and other electronic/physical goods for collateral or even without collateral. That would keep the first section full of genuine quality posts and the other one the shady place with scammers where you tread at your own risk and people who want to risk lending can still do so if they want to gamble for out of this world returns. Then there would be no excuse for posting a no-collateral post on an altcoin collateral only section. It can simply be moved to that section without deleting no? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on April 21, 2014, 05:34:17 PM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) I agree. Even if it is not a forum rule, it could be a section rule. All requests for a loan without a collateral, should be closed. If a user insists with these kind of requests, must be banned. More than the 90% of the posts in this section is currently pure garbage. CC. Or maybe create split on the loans section. It could be like the Marketplace in bitcoins and the other marketplace inside the altcoin subsection. Only in this case the two would be residing in the same section. One where altcoins for collateral is compulsory. The other one can be non-alt coins and other electronic/physical goods for collateral or even without collateral. That would keep the first section full of genuine quality posts and the other one the shady place with scammers where you tread at your own risk and people who want to risk lending can still do so if they want to gamble for out of this world returns. Then there would be no excuse for posting a no-collateral post on an altcoin collateral only section. It can simply be moved to that section without deleting no? Raise your suggestion in the Meta section. I do think that would work, but obviously I am not an admin and telling your ideas to me won't make anything happen. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: sonysasankan on April 22, 2014, 04:11:11 AM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) I agree. Even if it is not a forum rule, it could be a section rule. All requests for a loan without a collateral, should be closed. If a user insists with these kind of requests, must be banned. More than the 90% of the posts in this section is currently pure garbage. CC. Or maybe create split on the loans section. It could be like the Marketplace in bitcoins and the other marketplace inside the altcoin subsection. Only in this case the two would be residing in the same section. One where altcoins for collateral is compulsory. The other one can be non-alt coins and other electronic/physical goods for collateral or even without collateral. That would keep the first section full of genuine quality posts and the other one the shady place with scammers where you tread at your own risk and people who want to risk lending can still do so if they want to gamble for out of this world returns. Then there would be no excuse for posting a no-collateral post on an altcoin collateral only section. It can simply be moved to that section without deleting no? Raise your suggestion in the Meta section. I do think that would work, but obviously I am not an admin and telling your ideas to me won't make anything happen. What's a meta section? How Do I find out who's the mod for the lending section. Don't see any moderator titles in the section heading. I really don't understand the hierarchy system at Bitcointalk... I see some as "staff", then there's also "global moderators". Is each staff assigned a section of the forum to moderate or something? I'm not very old here in the forums and havent really ventured outside posting replies and PMs :D Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on April 22, 2014, 09:52:07 AM This needs to be a sticky and will avoid a lot of clutter here. The genuine loan seekers get lost in all this shit. In fact I would go one step further and ban the user who are all like "oh but I would never ever ever cheat some one cross my heart and its for the dying people of coinistan", etc. No collateral needs to be enforced just like the No giveaways rule and the "reserved" posting rule. I'm all for reducing nightmares :) I agree. Even if it is not a forum rule, it could be a section rule. All requests for a loan without a collateral, should be closed. If a user insists with these kind of requests, must be banned. More than the 90% of the posts in this section is currently pure garbage. CC. Or maybe create split on the loans section. It could be like the Marketplace in bitcoins and the other marketplace inside the altcoin subsection. Only in this case the two would be residing in the same section. One where altcoins for collateral is compulsory. The other one can be non-alt coins and other electronic/physical goods for collateral or even without collateral. That would keep the first section full of genuine quality posts and the other one the shady place with scammers where you tread at your own risk and people who want to risk lending can still do so if they want to gamble for out of this world returns. Then there would be no excuse for posting a no-collateral post on an altcoin collateral only section. It can simply be moved to that section without deleting no? Raise your suggestion in the Meta section. I do think that would work, but obviously I am not an admin and telling your ideas to me won't make anything happen. What's a meta section? How Do I find out who's the mod for the lending section. Don't see any moderator titles in the section heading. I really don't understand the hierarchy system at Bitcointalk... I see some as "staff", then there's also "global moderators". Is each staff assigned a section of the forum to moderate or something? I'm not very old here in the forums and havent really ventured outside posting replies and PMs :D That's correct. There aren't any mods for the Lending section right now as there are no rules that can be enforced here, and spam and all that is usually dealt with by the global moderators. Also, meta is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=24.0 Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: KWH on April 25, 2014, 12:25:55 AM What is considered collateral? - The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Litecoin (also written as LTC). - Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. - Small valuable items that can be shipped though the mail - i.e. gold, silver, iphones, etc. - Large items, such as a motorcycle or guitar can be used if you live close to the person giving you the loan. What is not considered collateral? - Items not in hand. Don't trust a user that promises to give you something *when* they default! Tracking numbers only show something has been mailed - it could be an empty box. - Most alt-coins that trade for satoshis are not good collateral as they can become worthless overnight. - Paypal should never be used - they are anti-bitcoin and will rule against you 100% of the time. - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) When should you use Escrow? - Never send collateral directly to a newbie offering you a loan, as they are likely to take your coins and disappear. - Use only "Hero Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the days they have spent here. - Do not use a third party escrow service unless hero members can vouch for it - it's too easy to create a website, do a few escrows then disappear with a big balance. Rinse and repeat. When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. Ignore the sob stories that users post - it's just a scam to get your coins. If a person really is in such a situation, they can turn to family, friends or other social circles they frequent. They are just posting in our community because the payment is anonymous and irreversible. Finally, do not encourage scammers to come here! Giving out loans to newbies with no collateral, or loans to people with "SCAMMER" under their name are likely to get you negative-repped by other users, like me. :) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on April 29, 2014, 08:58:47 PM For reference...BTC is not collateral for a BTC loan. That's like me saying "Here's $5 collateral, can I have that $100 loan now?" First, I might as well have just taken out a $95 loan, and secondly, if you're offering BTC as collateral you obviously have less than 100% collateral else you wouldn't be taking out the loan, meaning you're probably not going to find someone to loan to you.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: Rupture on April 30, 2014, 10:44:50 AM I do loans without collateral here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590231.0
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: KWH on April 30, 2014, 12:50:26 PM I do loans without collateral here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590231.0 Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: RyanMilligan1 on May 10, 2014, 11:48:05 AM What is considered collateral? - The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Litecoin (also written as LTC). - Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. - Small valuable items that can be shipped though the mail - i.e. gold, silver, iphones, etc. - Large items, such as a motorcycle or guitar can be used if you live close to the person giving you the loan. What is not considered collateral? - Items not in hand. Don't trust a user that promises to give you something *when* they default! Tracking numbers only show something has been mailed - it could be an empty box. - Future income. It's great that you can prove you'll make xx coins in the next few days, but nothing forces you to send those coins to pay your debt. - Identification. So what if they can prove who they are. Are you going to spend more money and time taking them to court on untested legal grounds? You'll probably just walk away, like everyone does. ID is useless. - Most alt-coins that trade for satoshis are not good collateral as they can become worthless overnight. - Paypal should never be used - they are anti-bitcoin and will rule against you 100% of the time. Escrow can't even help, as paypal charge backs can come 6 months later! - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) When should you use Escrow? - Never send collateral directly to a low activity/post account offering you a loan, as they are likely to take your coins and disappear. - Use only "Hero Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the days they have spent here. - Do not use a third party escrow service unless hero members can vouch for it - it's too easy to create a website, do a few escrows then disappear with a big balance. Rinse and repeat. When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. Ignore the sob stories that users post - it's just a scam to get your coins. If a person really is in such a situation, they can turn to family, friends or other social circles they frequent. They are just posting in our community because the payment is anonymous and irreversible. Finally, do not encourage scammers to come here! Giving out loans to newbies with no collateral, or loans to people with "SCAMMER" under their name are likely to get you negative-repped by other users, like me. :) Another for 'small valuable items' could be jewellery. I was just looking at watch collection and thinking that could cover over a 100K btc loan. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: CCU on June 02, 2014, 12:18:32 AM Thanks for the warning and the general knowledge.
I've come to invite those who like to share knowledge to consider teaching at CCU (Cryptocurrency University), we expect to be up and running by Fall of 2014. Here is a link to our request for instructors: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=632961.msg7061983#msg7061983 Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on June 07, 2014, 08:55:44 AM Note: You need to acknowledge this if you are taking a loan out - if you are a new member (Newbie, Jr. Member, perhaps even a Member), trying to take out a loan without collateral will almost always result in you receiving negative trust and being marked with a red "TWC" tag. Mods will not remove this and neither will Admins.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: Muhammed Zakir on June 28, 2014, 10:29:23 AM Note: You need to acknowledge this if you are taking a loan out - if you are a new member (Newbie, Jr. Member, perhaps even a Member), trying to take out a loan without collateral will almost always result in you receiving negative trust and being marked with a red "TWC" tag. Mods will not remove this and neither will Admins. What if that person have no collateral but can give the btc back as he promised? Kindly, Muhammed Zakhir Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: sonysasankan on June 28, 2014, 11:11:45 AM Note: You need to acknowledge this if you are taking a loan out - if you are a new member (Newbie, Jr. Member, perhaps even a Member), trying to take out a loan without collateral will almost always result in you receiving negative trust and being marked with a red "TWC" tag. Mods will not remove this and neither will Admins. What if that person have no collateral but can give the btc back as he promised? Kindly, Muhammed Zakhir Any scammer "can" give the BTC back. Collateral acts as an answer to "if he doesn't". Its to protect the lender, not prove the borrower's trustworthiness. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: renee25 on July 03, 2014, 03:45:05 PM namecoin now has an option for "scrow" you pay namecoins to an address and they give you the related .bit domain it's still in beta and running on command line, and as everybody know development is slow but someone surely will build something interesting here...
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: leevalle on August 04, 2014, 11:40:27 PM Coulda mobile wallet be an acceptable form of collateral?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: Muhammed Zakir on August 06, 2014, 05:56:30 PM Coulda mobile wallet be an acceptable form of collateral? Yes! but it is little difficult. You must have some coin it! ::) Kindly, MZ Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: leevalle on August 06, 2014, 08:16:25 PM Coulda mobile wallet be an acceptable form of collateral? Yes! but it is little difficult. You must have some coin it! ::) Kindly, MZ I mean mobile wallet like ISIS WALLET, which is tied to my bank and credit card. Its a form of NFC patment Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" Post by: DiamondCardz on August 27, 2014, 07:03:47 PM Bumping this as it might still stop a couple people from wasting their time trying to get a loan with no collateral. Obviously, scammers are scammers and they'll still attempt to scam, but this sticky will stop some people from wasting their time.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Bobblehead Pete on September 02, 2014, 04:29:19 AM Hmmmm... can anyone give an example of a perfect collateral if the one who wants to loan is in, for example, asia?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: slu2 on October 02, 2014, 07:34:39 AM Has anyone figured out how to correctly and safely offer up Real Estate deeds, or car titles, with a lien or something of that sort.
I have a 4 plex deed and all of my vehicles are paid for with title in hand. But how to accomplish a lien or something like that? I may have to try to find a lawyer that deals with Bitcoin, but so far I haven't found anyone who has a confident answer on this, including my own business lawyer. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: DaNksta on October 21, 2014, 12:32:01 AM If they had collateral they probably wouldn't need a loan =/ most would sell their stuff or use it as collaterall for a pawn shop loan
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Muhammed Zakir on October 21, 2014, 02:33:48 PM If they had collateral they probably wouldn't need a loan =/ most would sell their stuff or use it as collaterall for a pawn shop loan 2 different answers based on 1 answer? :o Some collateral are precious which we don't like to sell but you need money, so you can take a loan putting *it* as collateral. ::) ~~MZ~~ Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: slu2 on October 23, 2014, 04:47:24 AM I got a loan 2 days ago at BTCJam.com for nearly 4 BTC, no collateral.
It took two tries, but I finally got funded. I am seriously considering setting up a "title loan by bitcoin" company. This has to be fairly easy to put together. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: DiamondCardz on October 23, 2014, 04:09:32 PM I got a loan 2 days ago at BTCJam.com for nearly 4 BTC, no collateral. It took two tries, but I finally got funded. I am seriously considering setting up a "title loan by bitcoin" company. This has to be fairly easy to put together. Because BTCScam is a terrible site where gullible people go. The repayment rate is something like 75% I think. You lose a ridiculous amount of cash investing. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: slu2 on October 23, 2014, 07:31:47 PM I got a loan 2 days ago at BTCJam.com for nearly 4 BTC, no collateral. It took two tries, but I finally got funded. I am seriously considering setting up a "title loan by bitcoin" company. This has to be fairly easy to put together. Because BTCScam is a terrible site where gullible people go. The repayment rate is something like 75% I think. You lose a ridiculous amount of cash investing. I made a mistake investing the amount of 0.2 btc in two scammers. So I've lost 0.4 BTC in bad investments, but I have made all of the coin back and then some, so my losses have been covered by my gains. My loan will be paid back, so I will be another good example of BTCJam. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: abstream on December 01, 2014, 04:04:37 PM All this threads for lending makes me wonder - why would you lend bitcoin to forum members if there are exiting platforms/websites for lending(where borrowers have some credit score) - I am not posting the names since I am really interested in the answer and I am not here to spam or advertise...
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: abstream on January 15, 2015, 03:33:25 PM liquid altcoin?
Hmmmm... can anyone give an example of a perfect collateral if the one who wants to loan is in, for example, asia? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: btcminer021 on February 18, 2015, 10:57:19 PM Good sticky. Would be nice to see a list of Legendary members who facilitate escrow in order to strengthen the community.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: DiamondCardz on May 28, 2015, 05:13:32 AM I've been rather shocked by the fact people are getting back into the habit of requesting No Collateral loans, and I'd strongly encourage lenders to start enforcing this rule more closely again. Just because one No Collateral loan worked doesn't mean it's a good idea.
That said, I understand why the threads offering No Collateral loans came about - there's clearly a fairly attractive market there and you could make some nice coin from the interest. But should still not request No Collateral loans without high trust (i.e. my level, not trying to boast). Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: cryptodojo on May 28, 2015, 01:59:03 PM Great tidbit of info for Newbies to lending. Thanks for educating us ALL!
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: hunkey600 on May 30, 2015, 04:27:12 PM i was just thinking why give negative trust if someone has requested loan without collateral, i mean he has not done anything wrong yet....i mean if you think borrower is not trust worthy then simply avoid that person and don't give loans. I am just saying this maybe because of this someone innocent can suffer.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Muhammed Zakir on May 30, 2015, 04:37:18 PM i was just thinking why give negative trust if someone has requested loan without collateral, i mean he has not done anything wrong yet....i mean if you think borrower is not trust worthy then simply avoid that person and don't give loans. I am just saying this maybe because of this someone innocent can suffer. Are you telling to encourage people without any trust who is very probable alt of established users to ask for loans in a place where users even scammed for as little as $1(maybe less)? Leaving negative trust is to prevent scam. You can see most accounts will be inactive after receiving negative trust which shows those accounts were made solely to ask loan(s). Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: DiamondCardz on May 30, 2015, 04:53:07 PM i was just thinking why give negative trust if someone has requested loan without collateral, i mean he has not done anything wrong yet....i mean if you think borrower is not trust worthy then simply avoid that person and don't give loans. I am just saying this maybe because of this someone innocent can suffer. Because it prevents people from being scammed, simply. It's the best measure that can be taken to avoid endless scamming and in all fairness it's only applied where a scam is extremely obvious - no sane person goes on an anonymous online person and asks for a 2 BTC loan with no collateral or anything.Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: hunkey600 on May 30, 2015, 05:06:57 PM i was just thinking why give negative trust if someone has requested loan without collateral, i mean he has not done anything wrong yet....i mean if you think borrower is not trust worthy then simply avoid that person and don't give loans. I am just saying this maybe because of this someone innocent can suffer. Are you telling to encourage people without any trust who is very probable alt of established users to ask for loans in a place where users even scammed for as little as $1(maybe less)? Leaving negative trust is to prevent scam. You can see most accounts will be inactive after receiving negative trust which shows those accounts were made solely to ask loan(s). i am not encouraging any scam. just looking for any alternative. Maybe you guys are right Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: hunkey600 on May 30, 2015, 05:07:44 PM i was just thinking why give negative trust if someone has requested loan without collateral, i mean he has not done anything wrong yet....i mean if you think borrower is not trust worthy then simply avoid that person and don't give loans. I am just saying this maybe because of this someone innocent can suffer. Because it prevents people from being scammed, simply. It's the best measure that can be taken to avoid endless scamming and in all fairness it's only applied where a scam is extremely obvious - no sane person goes on an anonymous online person and asks for a 2 BTC loan with no collateral or anything.I was just looking if there is any alternative, maybe you guys are right. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Vod on September 15, 2015, 04:45:00 AM Second post updated to include the following escrow list:
- A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: phishead on October 14, 2015, 02:52:44 AM I'm curious as to if I would want to take a loan, how would I know at what % rate I would need to set, along with how long in duration? What if I have multiple things I could give in collateral so I could increase the incentive to get a loan? I know I'm a junior member with no trust, but if say I wanted to purchase something that's pretty expensive, and need some time to pay it back, but have the collateral items to make the incentive worth it (mostly physical goods with some altcoins), what would I need to do?
I'm not saying I really want or need a loan right now, but I'm rather curious.. Because there are a couple things in the market place I would want to buy right now ;D Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: whywefight on October 14, 2015, 12:51:51 PM I'm curious as to if I would want to take a loan, how would I know at what % rate I would need to set, along with how long in duration? What if I have multiple things I could give in collateral so I could increase the incentive to get a loan? I know I'm a junior member with no trust, but if say I wanted to purchase something that's pretty expensive, and need some time to pay it back, but have the collateral items to make the incentive worth it (mostly physical goods with some altcoins), what would I need to do? I'm not saying I really want or need a loan right now, but I'm rather curious.. Because there are a couple things in the market place I would want to buy right now ;D check the threads of people that are active atm. most of them have terms and explain them in detail. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Misiak4 on October 18, 2015, 07:06:40 PM Thank you for this post. Link to trusted escrows is quite helpfull for me because I want to start my own loan "business".
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Dec 31 2014----- Post by: aRegularNobody on October 20, 2015, 03:04:04 AM What is considered collateral? Collateral is something that can easily be resold to cover the loan value plus interest should the loaner default on the loan. - The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Litecoin (also written as LTC). Coins must be moderately traded on multiple exchanges. - Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. - Small valuable items that can be shipped though the mail - i.e. gold, silver, iphones, etc. - Large items, such as a motorcycle or guitar can be used if you live close to the person giving you the loan. Try localbitcoins.com (http://localbitcoins.com) What is not considered collateral? - Items not in hand. Don't trust a user that promises to give you something *when* they default! Tracking numbers only show something has been mailed - it could be an empty box. - Future income. You can prove you'll make xx coins in the next few days, but nothing forces you to send those coins to pay your debt. - Identification. So what if they can prove who they are. Are you going to spend more money and time taking them to court on untested legal grounds? You'll probably just walk away, like everyone does. ID is useless. - Games codes or similar. To verify the collateral you need to use the code, which destroys the collateral. Consider this a purchase, not a loan. (Post in Digital Goods (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=93.0) instead) - Most new alt-coins or alt-coins that trade for satoshis are not good collateral as they can become worthless overnight. - Paypal should never be used - they are anti-bitcoin and will rule against you 100% of the time. Escrow can't even help, as paypal charge backs can come over 6 months later! - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) Examples: Steam When should you use Escrow? - Never send collateral directly to a low activity/post account offering you a loan, as they are likely to take your coins and disappear. (Collateral Scam) - Use only "Hero Members" or "Legendary Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the time they have spent here. - Do not use a third party escrow service unless hero members can vouch for it - it's too easy to create a website, do a few escrows then disappear with a big balance. Rinse and repeat. - A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. Ignore the sob stories that users post - it's just a scam to get your coins. If a person really is in such a situation, they can turn to family, friends or other social circles they frequent. They are just posting in our community because the payment is anonymous and irreversible. This Guy is a piece of work..... Who are you? why do you determine what is and is not valid collateral? I guess writing something makes you the authority! half ass wanna be mod but is really nobody! Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Dec 31 2014----- Post by: DiamondCardz on October 24, 2015, 12:57:49 PM This Guy is a piece of work..... Who are you? why do you determine what is and is not valid collateral? I guess writing something makes you the authority! half ass wanna be mod but is really nobody! Someone is a little salty, man. His advice is fair. You could raise the same question to me for making this thread - it's just advice that is generally agreed upon by the community and has been refined via suggestions by the community. Want to make a suggestion? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Zeroxal on November 20, 2015, 09:50:21 PM I would like to add something regarding forum account as collateral. I got scammed and have a thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1256710.0
Would be nice to warn other lenders to ask for a signed message from a 3 month old unedited bitcoin address when getting a forum account as the collateral. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: erickimani on November 21, 2015, 10:17:13 AM that is a very good rule. I have noted it. thanks
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Vod on January 14, 2016, 01:32:22 AM Second post updated to include the following collateral:
What is not considered collateral? - Items they want to sell. They don't want it back, so they will default. It's scammy unethical behavior and will lead to negative trust. Check their recent posts! Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: dre1982 on January 21, 2016, 10:10:35 AM Is there a reason why newbies aren't allowed on this sub forum. Halve of all topics here are closed because it are newbies asking for loan. Just made this sub forum available for Member+ or so. Would make this whole sub forum a lot nicer.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: --Encrypted-- on January 21, 2016, 06:21:22 PM Is there a reason why newbies aren't allowed on this sub forum. Halve of all topics here are closed because it are newbies asking for loan. Just made this sub forum available for Member+ or so. Would make this whole sub forum a lot nicer. newbies are allowed here. it's just almost all of the newbies tend to ask a for loan without collateral. and about restricting newbies from this forum.. just read this topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1297180.0), which is just one of the many topics requesting the same thing. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: DarkStar1O9 on February 14, 2016, 01:48:30 PM I don't know if a .0001 loan bothers someone then they must be going through some sort of complex and/or slow method of converting over their bitcoin from their main currency. Amounts over .02 BTC I agree about being more cautious with.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: cornish_will on February 14, 2016, 04:15:19 PM Hi Long time Not here busy busy
I have one point im alwasy confused about collateral loans especially with alt coins is the fact if u wanted borrow 1Btc and had enough alt coins to cover colatteral then wouldnt you just sell the coins on an exchange? Just curious Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Quickseller on February 14, 2016, 04:55:41 PM Hi Long time Not here busy busy If you were to sell the altcoins then you will miss out on any potential price appreciation that would happen between when you take out the loan and when you repay the loan. You would also incur trading fees/costs both when you sell the altcoin and when you buy it back (and if your position is large enough you would incur some slippage in both directions). I have one point im alwasy confused about collateral loans especially with alt coins is the fact if u wanted borrow 1Btc and had enough alt coins to cover colatteral then wouldnt you just sell the coins on an exchange? Just curious Some people also like to borrow btc in order to buy even more altcoins (eg they are using leverage) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: MFahad on March 06, 2016, 10:33:21 AM Hi Long time Not here busy busy If you were to sell the altcoins then you will miss out on any potential price appreciation that would happen between when you take out the loan and when you repay the loan. You would also incur trading fees/costs both when you sell the altcoin and when you buy it back (and if your position is large enough you would incur some slippage in both directions). I have one point im alwasy confused about collateral loans especially with alt coins is the fact if u wanted borrow 1Btc and had enough alt coins to cover colatteral then wouldnt you just sell the coins on an exchange? Just curious Some people also like to borrow btc in order to buy even more altcoins (eg they are using leverage) Yes agree with you. they buy more ALT coins with bitcoins and then trade them for profit. this is how they tend to ge tmaximun profit. So they require more and more BTC Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: JeemFromBoston on April 11, 2016, 11:30:56 PM I have a perfect rating wkth over 100 trades on localbitcoins, as both seller and buyer.
Would this LBC account be valid as collateral? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: --Encrypted-- on April 11, 2016, 11:39:51 PM I have a perfect rating wkth over 100 trades on localbitcoins, as both seller and buyer. Would this LBC account be valid as collateral? no. Quote - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: BigBloke on April 23, 2016, 06:24:26 PM Thank you for this info I will put this to use if I ever decide to lend people money.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Egglaity on April 23, 2016, 06:25:16 PM I like how you give good examples of collateral in this. But thank you for the info :D
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Apper1990 on April 23, 2016, 06:27:00 PM I always see people using twitter accounts as collateral. I wonder how safe that is
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Sailse on April 23, 2016, 06:29:06 PM Can I use a gift card as collateral?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Thicitch on April 23, 2016, 06:29:37 PM Does a keyboard count as collateral?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: BlokeTodd on April 23, 2016, 11:05:19 PM Giftcards shouldnt be accepted as collateral
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Mailserver on April 24, 2016, 09:36:52 AM Thanks, interesting read.
Will take inboard what you said. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: btclight on May 05, 2016, 08:16:00 AM Hello
I have 180 days old limited paypal account which ready to cash out via bank account or credit card and already received email from paypal for allowed cash out funds I also called via phone to paypal and can ask paypal for transfer funds to another paypal account if required I have NOT any bank or card so can not cashout funds myself amount available in limited paypal account around 220 USD + can give all userid password, email password etc can give this as Collateral for get loan 100 USD + worth of btc loan? waiting for help thanks Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: morantis on June 06, 2016, 03:06:09 AM i have to say that some ways of collateral make no sense to me in terms of altcoins
I have seen on here and on sites that are just for lending, a collateral of say Doge for a Bitcoin loan. The person needs $1000 in Bitcoins and puts up $1100 in Doge to get the loan. Ok, i have never understood this method. If you have $1100 worth of Doge, just exchange it for the $1100 in Bitcoins or straight to FIAT if that is the need. And they do it like that, the amount of the loan, plus some. Then they pay interest on the loan, meanwhile they are sitting on the Doge. While prices rise and fall, the standard altcoins of Doge and LTC and BTC are going to be fairly strong for a while. Why hand someone your $1100 worth of Doge and not have access to it to pay interest on a loan of another top five altcoin. Just exchange the coins one for the other and save the money. In the end, if you pay the loan, you are right back at Doge, no Bitcoin and minus interest. Whatever the loan was for might have paid off. If you exchange the Doge, get the BTC and at the end, switch it back to Doge, same results. You have the Doge, no BTC and whatever profit your enterprise made or lost, but without paying the loan interest. It is a riddle to me. Putting up $800 worth of Doge to back a $1000 BTC loan, that makes some sense. You are locking down a 80% repayment no matter what and not risking your own full $1000, but a higher collateral amount, just in a different coin is ludicrous to me. Unless someone can explain it. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: --Encrypted-- on June 10, 2016, 02:25:57 PM Why hand someone your $1100 worth of Doge and not have access to it to pay interest on a loan of another top five altcoin. because people might believe that doge prices will go up before they get enough money to buy it back. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: cryptohustla on July 01, 2016, 02:32:19 PM Why hand someone your $1100 worth of Doge and not have access to it to pay interest on a loan of another top five altcoin. because people might believe that doge prices will go up before they get enough money to buy it back. i guess that explains it though i was also confused .. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: KingTylerVVS on July 08, 2016, 06:26:07 AM Thank you for these guidelines.
I know you mentioned domains, so can we offer our website as collateral? OR Artwork? 2 EXAMPLES IN ONE: http://www.d3fc.me/2016/07/PRICELESSHeirloomArtwork.html (http://www.d3fc.me/2016/07/PRICELESSHeirloomArtwork.html) (I am an artist and the developer of www.d3fc.me) I seek a loan but only from someone who can afford to lend around 5 grand for a period of a few years. I have a brilliant strategy that will generate bitcoin ad revenue and repayment is virtually guaranteed. Get this: facebook ads cost around $10 for 10 visitors. Bitcoin ads can attract bitcoin enthusiasts, 10 for 7¢. And bitcoin ads on my site pay almost as much. I can attract one visitor for 7¢ and have them visit over and over and over, for free if they enter an email. My site already had tons of advertisements set up in unobtrusive places. I am 100% ok with escrow, but I can't lose access to my site in the mean time, or I wont be able to update it and add content for visitors. Currently the website login is authenticated and well protected. How do I share access and relinquish control 100% if I default? I don't want to be thought of as a scammer and I mean all the best. I do want to be transparent. I already owe 1.3 bitcoins to bitcoin jam... Nowhere else though. (NOTE: it is tied to USD so if the price spikes I can pay back with my current .55 bitcoin savings) I would have paid it off a year ago except cloud mining sites are all ponzis and I lost a lot of coin back then. (Yes I was naive and should not have invested in cloud mining. Lesson learned.) I will be forced to continue working 60 hours a week at minimum wage, just to cover bills and then repay the loan, until I get a decent sized loan. NO SOB here, just facts. If I get a big loan the first thing I will do is pay back the 1.35 bitcoins I owe btcjam. Then finish my site with layers of content and email marketing funnels. For big projects that get millions in investments, the 1.3 bitcoins I owe priced at the current USD value is chump change. I think my project honestly deserves far more than I am asking. Anyways... Thanks again for this sticky - it is very informative. And thanks for any answers you can give me. Cheers! Long live Bitcoin! Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Dec 31 2014----- Post by: the_mixologist on November 27, 2016, 10:00:46 AM What is considered collateral? Collateral is something that can easily be resold to cover the loan value plus interest should the loaner default on the loan. - The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Litecoin (also written as LTC). Coins must be moderately traded on multiple exchanges. - Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. - Small valuable items that can be shipped though the mail - i.e. gold, silver, iphones, etc. - Large items, such as a motorcycle or guitar can be used if you live close to the person giving you the loan. Try localbitcoins.com (http://localbitcoins.com) What is not considered collateral? - Items they want to sell. They don't want it back, so they will default. It's scammy unethical behavior and will lead to negative trust. Check their recent posts! - Items not in hand. Don't trust a user that promises to give you something *when* they default! Tracking numbers only show something has been mailed - it could be an empty box. - Future income. You can prove you'll make xx coins in the next few days, but nothing forces you to send those coins to pay your debt. - Identification. So what if they can prove who they are. Are you going to spend more money and time taking them to court on untested legal grounds? You'll probably just walk away, like everyone does. ID is useless. - Games codes or similar. To verify the collateral you need to use the code, which destroys the collateral. Consider this a purchase, not a loan. (Post in Digital Goods (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=93.0) instead) - Most new alt-coins or alt-coins that trade for satoshis are not good collateral as they can become worthless overnight. - Paypal should never be used - they are anti-bitcoin and will rule against you 100% of the time. Escrow can't even help, as paypal charge backs can come over 6 months later! - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) Examples: Steam When should you use Escrow? - Never send collateral directly to a low activity/post account offering you a loan, as they are likely to take your coins and disappear. (Collateral Scam) - Use only "Hero Members" or "Legendary Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the time they have spent here. - Do not use a third party escrow service unless hero members can vouch for it - it's too easy to create a website, do a few escrows then disappear with a big balance. Rinse and repeat. - A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. Ignore the sob stories that users post - it's just a scam to get your coins. If a person really is in such a situation, they can turn to family, friends or other social circles they frequent. They are just posting in our community because the payment is anonymous and irreversible. Sry, so if I use the domain name as the collateral, how can we evaluate the price? Because i checked the different est domain name, also not the same price some are high, some are low? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: retampan on December 23, 2016, 07:30:55 AM I want to loan, i have collateral. But many people deny my loan request.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: szpalata on January 20, 2017, 11:22:03 AM I want to loan, i have collateral. But many people deny my loan request. . "Do you want to loan" or you want a loan? If you want a loan then you must basically have some reputation here, you can't have a newbie account with less than 20 post and expect to be trusted for a loan even if you have adequate collateral. It's understandable that people tend to behave this way because a lot of things happen on the Internet and everyone is looking out for his or her security. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: johnny1234 on January 21, 2017, 11:57:10 AM i am trying to understand this collateral business. i have noticed loans request on this site where the BTC account is used but how does that work if your a newbie? i have accounts with paxful and localbitcoin but they currently have zero balance. can they be used?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Vod on January 23, 2017, 08:27:23 AM i have accounts with paxful and localbitcoin but they currently have zero balance. can they be used? How much are you out if you don't get your free accounts back? ::) It's obvious you are just looking for a way to scam some free coins. I suggest you interact with the community before begging for money. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: krishnapramod on January 27, 2017, 02:41:30 PM Facebook, Twitter, Steam, Localbitcoins, Paxful, cloud mining accounts, gift cards, collateral cannot get better than this ;D
More than a couple of years ago I had asked a loan as a newbie and got painted in red by vod. I did not had any intention of scamming when I asked the loan at that time, but the point is decentralization brings too much anonymity with it, even it takes some time to build trust with an identifiable object, and just jumping into lending section and asking 1 BTC loan does not scale anywhere on the trust factor. Now I have repaid half a dozen loans on BCT, it took couple of years to build some trust in an anonymous environment, but still worth it :)...So newbies if you just have "accounts" as collateral do not bother posting a loan request and be a bait for sig spammers :) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: tanvirnsu5 on April 03, 2017, 01:17:12 AM Just to get clarify, does domain Name/webhosting will be accepted as collateral?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: mrcash02 on May 05, 2017, 07:00:41 PM What are people here most accepting as collateral?
I would like to try lending money, but I don't know if it will worth, as we can't accept accounts as collateral and alt coins (depending the altcoin) are too risky and I'm not sure if many people here will give alt coins as collateral, as was said above on an old post: i have to say that some ways of collateral make no sense to me in terms of altcoins I have seen on here and on sites that are just for lending, a collateral of say Doge for a Bitcoin loan. The person needs $1000 in Bitcoins and puts up $1100 in Doge to get the loan. Ok, i have never understood this method. If you have $1100 worth of Doge, just exchange it for the $1100 in Bitcoins or straight to FIAT if that is the need. Physical items are impossible to deal, as we are in very far away countries and mail services usually steal packages. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: PunkAngel on June 10, 2017, 05:05:08 PM I need to borrow a loan. If anyone is willing please contact me. I don't want much money, just a enough to buy some groceries please. I have a reddit account that I can use as collateral. I am not sure what else is exactly used for Collateral but I am willing to consider whatever options you suggest.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: aadje93 on June 10, 2017, 05:09:39 PM Not valid and wrong place to post your loan request please read teh first post if you not understand what is a valid collateral it's really not hard to read and underatand it :/
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: PPOC on June 13, 2017, 03:05:22 AM Looking for ideas on obtaining 75K USD loan from trusted reputable source to finance a commercial property investment for 3yrs. Have ETH and BTC for collateral but don't want to sell as I believe the run is no even close to the top of the hill. Willing to put up 150K worth of coins, I talked to 2 banks but they have no ideas on how to collateralize digital assets.
Any suggestions? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Refozzblaze on September 01, 2017, 08:19:06 AM Why Giftcards Cant Considered As zcollaterall
And How To Spot Items That They Want To Sale? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: elbimbo012 on September 10, 2017, 02:33:25 PM Very nice thread this help lender and borrower insure there hard earned btc is safe. But still the risk is very high. Its hard to find trusted person or company to be sure your collateral or btc you lend will be safe.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: OmegaStarScream on September 10, 2017, 02:45:33 PM Why Giftcards Cant Considered As zcollaterall And How To Spot Items That They Want To Sale? A collateral is supposed to be sold only when someone decide to not pay the loan back and not before (you can't know If the card is actually working). If someone gives you an Amazon gift card as collateral for example (assuming that it works), he could both not pay the loan back and also redeem the gift card so even when you try to sell it or use it, It would be too late. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Gutenhans on September 24, 2017, 01:07:39 PM @ PPOC
Maybe ripple bank parteners will facilitate Fiat loans with Crypto collateral in the near future Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: richan on October 29, 2017, 04:04:32 PM I think a full member account of bitcointalk can be used as a collateral if the amount requested does not exceed the account value.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: binting on October 31, 2017, 01:19:39 PM As in 2013, it seems the trend has continued - a massive influx of users, both new and old, has continued to hit the Lending section with more and more loans being asked for daily. Due to scams a "rule" has been created which, while not currently "enforced", is basically a minimum requirement to get a loan. Note that this isn't an official forum rule, it's just a rule that most lenders will follow. hi hello it's me binting i need to borrow money from lending to help my business grow.To help my family my children to there needs in school and there everyday life.The rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" means that in order to get a loan you must give collateral that is equal, or preferably higher to the amount you are being loaned. If you completely ignore this sticky and make a loan request with no collateral, without having massive trust on the forum, the chances of you getting negative trusted feedback and therefore having a Trade with Extreme Caution tag is almost 100%. In general the amount lenders will be looking for is collateral equal to 110%-120% of the amount you are being loaned. Why is this? Well, first, they want to discourage you from running off with the funds. Collateral also needs to be something that can easily be sold, which brings me to my second point - your $500 worth of ink isn't going to cut it as collateral. Normally lenders will want things such as Altcoins or precious metals, although things that can be sent electronically are preferred. A common question is why don't I just sell my collateral? Well the reasoning behind collateral is that you think it's going to appreciate in price or do not want to sell it, encouraging you to pay back the loan to have your collateral returned. However, you must also watch out for collateral scammers. These guys take your collateral and run, without sending you the loan. Avoid this by using escrow. This applies to lenders too - for your own sake, please follow this rule, both for your wallet and to discourage scammers from coming here. The below post is also part of this [EDU]. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Berny-B on November 08, 2017, 01:18:56 AM the approach https://lendoit.com/ is taking looks legit.
no collaterals, default market, interest auction... Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Dec 31 2014----- Post by: Collectorcoin on November 08, 2017, 08:31:03 PM What is considered collateral? Collateral is something that can easily be resold to cover the loan value plus interest should the loaner default on the loan. - The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Litecoin (also written as LTC). Coins must be moderately traded on multiple exchanges. - Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. - Small valuable items that can be shipped though the mail - i.e. gold, silver, iphones, etc. - Large items, such as a motorcycle or guitar can be used if you live close to the person giving you the loan. Try localbitcoins.com What is not considered collateral? - Items they want to sell. They don't want it back, so they will default. It's scammy unethical behavior and will lead to negative trust. Check their recent posts! - Items not in hand. Don't trust a user that promises to give you something *when* they default! Tracking numbers only show something has been mailed - it could be an empty box. - Future income. You can prove you'll make xx coins in the next few days, but nothing forces you to send those coins to pay your debt. - Identification. So what if they can prove who they are. Are you going to spend more money and time taking them to court on untested legal grounds? You'll probably just walk away, like everyone does. ID is useless. - Games codes or similar. To verify the collateral you need to use the code, which destroys the collateral. Consider this a purchase, not a loan. (Post in Digital Goods instead) - Most new alt-coins or alt-coins that trade for satoshis are not good collateral as they can become worthless overnight. - Paypal should never be used - they are anti-bitcoin and will rule against you 100% of the time. Escrow can't even help, as paypal charge backs can come over 6 months later! - Most valuable online accounts can easily be recovered by social engineering (the user contacting support to say they were hacked, and regain control of the account) Examples: Steam When should you use Escrow? - Never send collateral directly to a low activity/post account offering you a loan, as they are likely to take your coins and disappear. (Collateral Scam) - Use only "Hero Members" or "Legendary Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the time they have spent here. - Do not use a third party escrow service unless hero members can vouch for it - it's too easy to create a website, do a few escrows then disappear with a big balance. Rinse and repeat. - A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0) When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. Ignore the sob stories that users post - it's just a scam to get your coins. If a person really is in such a situation, they can turn to family, friends or other social circles they frequent. They are just posting in our community because the payment is anonymous and irreversible. This was extremely helpful and informative. Glad to see some Elder Members in the forum helping out. I wish more people would pay attention to this non-enforced Rules. I see a lot of people making initial requests for loans without any type of pay back plan or collateral. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: xayan123 on November 11, 2017, 12:17:47 PM Can i use my account of paypal or payoneer as collateral? Sorry about the noob question.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: OmegaStarScream on November 11, 2017, 12:47:58 PM Can i use my account of paypal or payoneer as collateral? Sorry about the noob question. You can't as both accounts can be retrieved back from PayPal/Payoneer If you claim that you got hacked and provide proof. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: zoomzoom on November 14, 2017, 01:19:28 PM Are other cryptos ever really that hard to trade into BTC that they would need to be used as collateral to get BTC, I never quite understood this?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: OmegaStarScream on November 14, 2017, 05:49:06 PM Are other cryptos ever really that hard to trade into BTC that they would need to be used as collateral to get BTC, I never quite understood this? It's not that that they are hard to sell. In fact, no one would accept something unavailable in exchanges as collateral. It's just that people who are holding this altcoin for example want to continue to hodl as it value may increase and in the same time, they want a loan in BTC. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: djorzgul on December 14, 2017, 10:51:04 PM So, how can that value be determined? Again, no plans to ask for a loan, just curious to understand things :) Ok, I just found this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1142314.0 With all the answers I need :) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Hannu on January 07, 2018, 08:01:30 AM Hey buddy,
100%-120% is terrible cost on money (me at least). Never can pay it back! Its good to be read first this article! Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: EmmaGene on January 13, 2018, 07:41:05 PM Thanks much. I think you saved me from some bad ju-ju!
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Fractalized on January 20, 2018, 02:30:47 AM Amen.
Thank you for taking care of the well-being of the community. Due diligence is always warranted. Sometimes some things should go without saying but we mortal beings now and then can get carried away, be it from greed or hope and need to be put back on the right track. Be rationnal and as always, use the help of the community wisely and cautiously and do your homeworks. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Dec 31 2014----- Post by: Vod on January 26, 2018, 07:13:30 AM I have made the following changes for the new merit system. Source here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=577765.msg6311902#msg6311902).
- The best collateral is another crypto-currency, such as Ethereum (also written as ETH). Coins must be moderately traded on multiple exchanges. What is not considered collateral? - Merit. Bitcointalk Merit is not a commodity and is not meant to be traded. Asking or doing so may get you negative trust (Trade with Extreme Caution!) - Most pre-coins/tokens are worthless, or may take significant time to be worth anything. When should you use Escrow? - Use only "Legendary Members" for escrow - they have a vested interest in the community with the time they have spent here. When considering the trustworthiness of a user, ignore "Posts" as there are schemes that pay a user per post. A person can make 1,000 useless posts in one day and contribute nothing to the community. Instead look at the "Activity" number - that gives you a more accurate tally of how involved the user is in the community. The new "Merit" system highlights thoughtful or useful posts, but gives no indication of trustworthiness. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: journeyman12 on February 03, 2018, 01:45:05 PM the approach https://lendoit.com/ is taking looks legit. no collaterals, default market, interest auction... Anyone has experience with this platform ? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Jan 26 2018----- Post by: EcuaMobi on February 19, 2018, 08:49:52 PM I've seen a lot of loans being asked offering domains as collateral. I'd like to add some comments and guidelines about this:
TLDR; Domains can be used as collateral if
- Some digital wares such as domain names can be considered as long as the user cannot recover it. I know you mentioned domains, so can we offer our website as collateral? OR Artwork? Sry, so if I use the domain name as the collateral, how can we evaluate the price? Because i checked the different est domain name, also not the same price some are high, some are low? Just to get clarify, does domain Name/webhosting will be accepted as collateral? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: KryptoTronic on March 17, 2018, 09:17:55 AM Ok, first off I learned from getting reamed a time or two at XDA-Developers years ago to search before you ask - and to inform oneself as much as possible in order to gain the Knowledge and become learned, and other groovy anectdotal givens and Confusciousy stuff blah blah to the point please Kryptotronic.... Ok.
Given the handcuffs have me behind the back and I'm search restricted (?Why that feature?) and I'll be honest and admit I'm easily distracted by links inside posts of threads searched - did I miss the page or two where vehicle titles were covered? I see the O.P. laying grounds regarding motorcycles and bigger items, but an actual running vehicle with a Kelly Blue Book value - is the lender (assuming he or she were to accept) in danger or compromised if the title is mailed to them and the automobile somehow secured. Hold on now eager beavers, bite your smartypants remarks and bear with me - it seems it could feasibly be worked out. On this note while I am here and asking - are handwritten and/or video acknowledgements of handing over ownership of accounts e.g. Hashflare.io accounts, provide any remediation for the lender to have proof of ownership? I'm sure that it happens, but for those who would play by the rules (deleted a real good one about crossing my heart right then.... Still too fresh in the forums though.) Its just not an asset in any way that can be procured by another legally? I like to sound intelligent and most of me is half the time.... Forgive the grandstanding, especially if I worded that weirdly.... Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: omonuyak on April 11, 2018, 04:58:21 PM This rule should be made one of the major rules on this section as this may help save some of us that may desire to invest into lending program and make more coins from the interest. Many people desire to put in fund into lending services but the fear of losing or been scam is the major problem some of us could not come in.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Jan 26 2018----- Post by: 2342q6tegw on June 17, 2018, 01:15:25 PM What is not considered collateral? - Future income. You can prove you'll make xx coins in the next few days, but nothing forces you to send those coins to pay your debt. Am I missing something here? Couldn't income be set up to a multisig account requirng an investor's signature and the borrowers' signature. No investor signature, no transfer. Also what about loans backed by shares/SAFEs/ convertible notes? Or would that go into securites? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: SFR10 on July 20, 2018, 02:28:43 PM I’m confused about escrows also. Can anybody explain how they work? An "escrow provider", acts as a middleman (intermediary).- Read the following relevant threads:
Choose someone from the following lists (except me): - Recommended bitcointalk escrow services (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2439910.0) - ⛓LIST⛓ BitcoinTalk's Escrow Providers: Ranking & Blacklist ☠ Avoid Scammers ☠ (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276897.0) Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Jan 26 2018----- Post by: Vod on April 05, 2019, 08:32:39 PM - A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0) Last update 2016, and controlled by a scammer! We need someone trustworthy to make a new list... Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" -----Updated Jan 26 2018----- Post by: OmegaStarScream on April 07, 2019, 08:58:41 AM - A list of trusted escrows can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0) Last update 2016, and controlled by a scammer! We need someone trustworthy to make a new list... A more updated list can be found here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276897.0) (September 2018) which in my opinion is well made and the OP hasn't done anything that proves he's untrustworthy. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: jbdee on May 24, 2019, 02:54:47 AM Why does FIAT is not included in the list of valid collaterals?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: bones261 on May 24, 2019, 03:33:31 AM Why does FIAT is not included in the list of valid collaterals? Because most (if not all) ways to transfer fiat electronically are reversible. I suppose that you can have someone meet up with you in real life and give you cash as collateral. (Mailing cash is definitely not advisable.) There are tokens, such as tether, which are pegged to fiat that I am sure people will accept as collateral, though. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: jbdee on May 24, 2019, 03:43:40 AM Is Western Union reversible?!
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: bones261 on May 24, 2019, 03:53:54 AM Is Western Union reversible?! I didn't think about that. No, once you pick up the cash, Western Union is not reversible. However, you will need to give the person you are lending your personal information, because to pick up the cash, you need an ID. If you have the funds transferred to a bank account, than it is reversible. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: jbdee on May 24, 2019, 04:03:19 AM If you're willing to give your identity, Western Union can be a good collateral as it's irreversible, maybe you should add it to the list?
And what about bank transfers? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: bones261 on May 24, 2019, 04:18:36 AM If you're willing to give your identity, Western Union can be a good collateral as it's irreversible, maybe you should add it to the list? And what about bank transfers? Bank transfers are reversible. Also, I am not certain if any trusted escrow on this forum is going to accept cash for safekeeping. Also, what is nice about most altcoins is that I can verify that my collateral funds are still in safekeeping and not being moved around. P.S. I'm not the OP, so I can't add anything to the list. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: bregecko on July 17, 2019, 01:22:36 AM Paypal is non- reversible if the ''Friends and Family'' feature is used.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: OmegaStarScream on July 17, 2019, 08:54:41 AM Paypal is non- reversible if the ''Friends and Family'' feature is used. It's safer, but still reversible depending on how the account was funded as one can always open a dispute via his credit card issuer and ask for a chargeback. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Stakeey on August 16, 2019, 01:12:35 AM Has anyone considered accepting pre-listed tokens as collatterall, if so what has been the success rate ?
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: OmegaStarScream on August 16, 2019, 12:11:15 PM Has anyone considered accepting pre-listed tokens as collatterall, if so what has been the success rate ? That should not be considered as valid collateral. No one is going to accept a coin/token that hasn't been around for some time and also listed in multiple decent exchanges. Hi there. New in here and would like to know what you think of crypto-backed loans. I have just finished my KYC with Bankera Loans product and it was smooth and offers great sizes of loans and low interest rate at 6%. Do you guys/girls know if I can get better terms elsewhere? If no, I will continue with them in the following few days and let you know of my experience for reference Take a look at Nexo.io. I suggest you do your own research though as I have not tried them before, but they do have a good online presence. Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Mr_Pickles on August 22, 2019, 09:19:52 AM You can get free loans for longest time now. Look up ModulTrade for instance.
Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Devawnm367 on January 07, 2021, 05:49:40 PM I have gotten probably 30+ no collateral loans over the past couple of years? So I cannot even ask for them from my regular lenders now without being red flagged? I am just asking because I take care of my mom on hospice we are broke as shit... I have ALWAYS paid my not collateral loans back! WITH INTEREST! Is this only enforced on certain users threads or if I posted to my regular lenders thread could one of you red flag me! Even though I can leave a list with links to EVERY NO COLLATERAL LOAN I HAVE GOTTEN? I only ask for 2 maybe $300. I am not out trying to borrow .5 or 1 BTC. I just borrow enough to get caught back up until I get my next paycheck? I do not work very much because when I leave the hospice nurses call Adult protective services on me! If I am to work I have to have a sitter at all times when i leave the house! If I ever borrow it is because I know I have money coming! I am not out to screw anyone over. My life already sucks I do not need karma to fuck it up even more lmao
Asking for a friend? Title: Re: [EDU] The Rule of "No Collateral, No Loan" - IGNORE AT YOUR OWN RISK! Post by: Vod on April 21, 2024, 12:39:13 AM This thread is a decade old today. :)
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