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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yIL7Qds5EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyCVz37KcCk

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The US, EU and Israel needs to think twice before supporting these goons and supplying them with arms and ammunition. The regular Ukrainian soldiers are refusing to fight the civilians, while it is the Right Sector militants who are usually put on the front line.

The thing so sick and twisted it becomes humorous is that exiled Jewish oligarchs are the ones funding these Nazis.

I don't think they necessarily are supplying them, from what I've heard on the news and stuff they apparently just steal the stockpiles for themselves and if there are neo-nazi's in the military they could easily smuggle them out of the army bases. Granted, I wouldn't put it past our leaders to do such a thing because they're going back to the cold war mentality of "As long as they aren't communist we'll support them".

Some things never change. These nazis seem to really think they are doing the right thing.


The US is doing business. The EU politicians only have self interest. I dont know about Israel

Right Sector already comprises a large part of the front line troops supporting Kiev in the Eastern Ukraine. They are operating without any centralized command and are using the Ukrainian army vehicles and weapons. It is just a matter of time before they turns up against the Kiev government (can happen if someone opposed to them is elected as the president).

If you don't quote a credible source for those allegations, no one believe them.
There is reliable information of some extreme right wing parties on Ukraine, but I would like to see good evidence that they have strong armed groups, autonomous from the State, fighting on the separatist parts of the territory. Those pictures can be from some morons gathering on weekends and harassing some ethnic Russian neighbors.

People like Igor Kolomoysky are not religious Jews. They are mostly non-religious, and use their Jewish ancestry for lobbying in the United States and Israel. They wouldn't mind allying with the Neo-Nazis, as long as their business interests are guaranteed.

You have no info about integration of Neo Nazi in Ukrainian armed forces?
https://www.facebook.com/teroboronaDonbass

Habad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Habad is based in New York, with a strong presence in the Western World. Their ultimate aim is to unite the World Jewry. Not only Kolomoyskyi, but also other Jewish oligarchs such as Gennadiy Kernes are members of the Habad.

 иyдeйcкoe peлигиoзнoe движeниe (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B4)

There are neo-nazis in every armed forces of the world, including russians. People have the right to have their own believes, as long as they don't act on them, besides doing the roman salutation for the picture. The point is if they are strong enough to operate on their own against ethnic organized russian groups.
Every moron has a facebook page where he pretends to be more than he is, after buying some thousand likes on Five.

You need learn more about "Svoboda" in Government of Victory.

About facebook - there is ufficial page of Бaтaльoн "Дoнбacc".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9vM5QoAErE

Trading

You have no idea what are you talking about. Ukrainian nazis, ancestors and "heroes" of Svoboda party, are the ones who have killed more than 350000 of polish people without using any weapons. Their weapons were sickles, hoes and saws. The "wrong" people were simply sawn using the joiner and agricultural tools.

Before them nobody in the history did anything like that. And now these monsters are in power again. ::)

I know very well the Volyn massacres, but 70 years passed. Lets not judge an all people for what some of their parents did.
Didn't the russians kill millions of their own citizens during the stalinism, like more or less all our peoples did also in the past? If we go this way, no debate can occur.
And clearly the ukranian government isn't dominated by fascists. One of the small parties seems to be right wing, but the extremists of the right sector are not represented in the government. If you want to make the case for a fascist ukranian government, show evidence.

Come on, it seems you are explaining on a very understandable way massacres of minorities.
Stories rarely are clean and cut, but lets avoid to explain or justify things that should ashame us all as human beings.

Are You seriously have no idea about ethnic representation in Soviet Government?

A quick recruiting video, if people are unsure of who the RightSector really is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP4Drl6KBdc

You have to forget about political correctness, it's the only way to save your life from remake of the Volyn massacre. We have to judge them for this. It doesn't matter how many thousands of years passed, because they're promoting these monsters as their heroes, they're doing it right now.

Firstly, the most of the government positions were obtained by ukrainians, jews, georgians and others. Russians was a minority in Stalin government., the most of the government positions were handled by ukrainians, jews, georgians and others. Russians was a minority in Stalin government.

And actually it's a complicated question. Unlike what the most of western history textbooks say, Stalin wasn't a counterpart of Hitler or Shukhveych. Of course, he acted tough and committed crimes. But as opposed to burning Jews and Volyn massacre, he had a serious reasons to do that.

The main reasons:

• He had to prevent another coup d'état. Despite the Lenin's death, ideas of permanent world revolution by Trotsky and Bukharin still had a great support in the party. Stalin had to to something with it, because these members of party lived for the sake of the revolution and were ready to do everything for the the revolution. Country wouldn't survive after another revolution, so these cleanings were necessary.
• I don't think that Hitler's goals in the east were a secret. Stalin certainly had the opportunity to read Mein Kampf, so it was very clear that war was inevitable. At that time the country had an agrarian economy, which was more than 50 years behind in the development. While Germany, UK and US have completed the industrialization a long time ago. It was urgently required to catch up on this gap, otherwise there was a risk to lose the war and then live under occupation.

Unfortunately, in such circumstances, there was a great opportunity to realize the personal ambitions and vendettas, what some of the leaders, including Stalin himself, have done. And as the result, Stalin was the perfect scapegoat for Khrushchev, Yezhov, Beria and other members of the government. In fact a crimes, which Khrushchev has committed, was one of the reasons for the transfer of Crimea to Ukraine. It was a some kind of bribe to get forgiveness for what he had done.

There is no difference between Right Sector and Svoboda party, these parties have identical structure, ideology and set of "heroes". The Svoboda party isn't simply another right-wing party, they're open fascists and it's a fact. This could be proven by quting their rhetoric or EU parliamentary resolution 2012/2889.


A key members of the new "government" are members of Svoboda party. Do you really need any other evidence? Lol, then you have to wake up.  :)

Yarosh: Right Sector to guard voting stations in eastern Ukraine during elections

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yarosh-right-sector-to-guard-voting-stations-in-eastern-ukraine-during-elections-349016.html

lol.. what more do we need? The Neo-Nazis will ensure that all the votes will be cast for their candidate.

It's the same in the US military.  While no documented study has been done, I'm going with the assumption that gangmembers and Neo-Nazi make for better soldiers than teenagers looking for tuition telief / uneducated youth who went with the military because it pays more than a McJoB.

Neo-Nazi are quite spread across the globe, US included. You can even find Neo-Nazis in Africa  :)

In war, people die.

Before your post, a user posted some considerations explaining/justifying the Volyn massacre. I wrote that he was justifying the massacre of minorities. He deleted his post.
I wasn't expecting that you, Balthazar, an old member of the forum, would do the same about the crimes of Stalin. I wonder if you shouldn't review your post. Sometimes we get carry on by an argument and write something that we really didn't want. I'm not even going to go with you to that debate, even if it's a period of History that interest me. I'm not Russian or Ukrainian and, as a human being and citizen of the world, I'm ashamed of both those crimes.
But see as you clean the blame from the russian people, even if it was the central Government supported by the same russian people (that carry those criminal orders of a Georgian, ok, but that is a detail) the responsible from those crimes. It's like saying the Germans that obeyed all the criminal orders had no responsibility, because Hitler was an Austrian. But you have no problem to blame all the Ukrainians for crimes committed by armed groups not coordinated by any Ukrainian government (that didn't exist) during a time of nazi occupation.
Present Ukrainians and Russians are as responsible as me or any other human from what their parents did. Blame is not transferable to our sons.

I called the Svoboda a right wing party, I accept they are extremists, but I wouldn't put them in the same place of the right sector. Anyway, they got about 10% votes on the last elections. But you are passing judgement on the other 90% of the Ukrainian because of the views of this minority.
The Svododa has 5 elements on the Ukrainian Government that has 21 members, that is hardly a majority: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government#Changes_to_composition
You didn't presented any evidence that the Ukrainian Government is fascist. But, of course, the Ukrainian are crazy for having a party like that in their Government.

If you read this post carefully then you'll understand that it's not a justification, it's simply a description of things which some people are stubbornly refusing to notice. If you think that I'm biased then you need to know that a half of my ancestors died because of these repressions.

You said he had "serious reasons" and his measures were necessary, but well I'm going to take your word on that. But, have no doubts, everyone that reads you will think like me.
Necessary measures? He saw plots everywhere. Prepare for war with Germany? He decapitated the red army on 1937-1938. And contrary to the usual histories, the decimation didn't stop there. Many officers that had experience on the spanish civil war and the war with Japan of 1938-1939 were also removed. He was warned by many people. Sorge gave him the actually date of the German attack. He didn't believe anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bLcPzo6i8E

Trading

<sarcasm>It seems that you know Stalin better than Stalin himself.</sarcasm>  ;D

I would like to see where I have said something like this. I'm waiting for my quote or your apologies, you choose.

Nobody cares about their share neither in the government nor in the parliament. The important thing is that is actually being done by the government. Now they're putting pressure against journalists, presidential candidates and opposition parties.

I'm rolling on the floor because of laughing, who cares about elections or share?  :D They are in the "government" and parliament now, that's enough. It's not a democracy, if you forgot about that.

Share is irrelevant, because lesser number of seats could be easily compensated using physical violence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKMVFtPsFI

right in the parliament.

One MP is able to cast five votes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pDn0KMaFNE

Presidential candidates could be beaten right beside the building of TV station:

http://www.belvpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/65_tn-300x225.jpg

Opposition parties could be removed from the parliament:

http://rian.com.ua/analytics/20140506/347378670.html

You can use any term whatever you like, but it's a fascism. NSDAP did the same in 1933.

I've said what I said. You'll be surprised, but I don't care how and who would think while reading this message. I'm not a presidential candidate, and we are not participants of the TV show. And you are wrong when saying something like this:

Let me guess, you're not very good at playing chess? :) You shouldn't think so narrowly when it comes to managing a state. What makes you think that he didn't believe the received information? Of course he believed, but he couldn't do anything.

• If USSR would have made the first move, then Hitler would have an ideological advantage. This is very important. Then he would be able to sign an agreement on mutual assistance with US or anybody else and this would strengthen his positions.
• If the troops would be deployed near the border, this would be interpreted as preparation for the invasion, giving the same ideological advantage.

You will be surprised, but we see the same situation right now. Obama along with his puppets would like very much to see, how Russia occupies Ukraine. They are continuously put the blame on Putin for invasion to east regions, troops near the border, etc. They're are using fake evidences, old photos as the "proofs" and attacking own troops in the friedly fire.

Similar things were seen on the western soviet borders in 1940-1941:

http://podvig.gpk.gov.by/article/history_border_services/border_on_the_eve_of_war/

So the best option is simply ignore all provocations, don't do anything and wait for the first move. Just like Putin does right now.

Of course he did all these things.

Yes, his forced industrialization has led to famine, from which many people have died.
Yes, a lot of stupid things with the elimination of personnel was done. Such as Vavilov, for example.
Yes, a lot of people were suffered from the repressions because of false denunciations.

So what? On the contrary we see:

Without industrialization USSR would be incapable to fight with anyone, occupation of the entire european part of territory would require less than few weeks.
Without personnel cleanings a new revolution would have occurred.

As they say about managers "method is irrelevant, but the result is important". Are you disagree? Or, maybe, you would prefer to see an occupation of entire european part of USSR territory in the 40s? In the latter case I am sorry, but this is not an acceptable option.

Read what I wrote and your answer. I think I did had all the right to think you were talking about all the Ukrainian, that allowed people like that to be members of their Government.
But your correction makes your sentence more acceptable.

Unless you think the ministers of that party punch the others in the face until they comply with their wishes, they are in minority in the Government and hence in most cases the Government doesn't adopt their policy. Therefore, the Government is not a fascist one, at most he has some fascists elements. And the Parliament was democratically elected. Probably, the previous Ukrainian elections were much more democratic than the ones in present Russia. I admit the future elections are going to be problematic, as the Russian referendums on the east were.

I'm not going to roll here all the atrocities of Stalin that had nothing to do with forced industrialization. I wrote I wouldn't go into this debate. Anyway, you are justifying at least these atrocities connected with forced industrialization.

And, no, most of the specialists think Stalin didn't believe those reports. Even if the history that Khrushchev writes in his memoirs about Stalin being away in depression after the German attack is a lie (told him by Beria, he says), many witnesses (including Zhukov) writing about the issue said he was completely surprised. If Soviet Union was expecting an imminent attack it would be much better prepared, if not near the boarders to avoid a provocation, at least with defenses away from them.

Actually, there are many writers, including several specialists, mainly Russians (V. Suvorov, M. Meltiukhov, V. Nevezhin, V. Danilov and A. Solzhenitsyn) but also Germans (J. Hoffmann, W. Strauss, F. Becker) and Austrians (H. Magenheimer, E. Topitsch) that argue that Stalin was indeed preparing its own offensive against Germany, some claiming it would occur also on 1941, under a presented plan from Zhukov, quoting original soviet documents.
He could done much more than he did, short of a preemptive attack that would be a disaster, as Zhukov later admitted, since his plan had flaws.

Well, the debate was fun, even if it could be more without the sarcasm. Thank you.

LOL
This "Government" is founded not by elections.

Yes, but all governments are in power because people don't overthrown them. In the end, all power rests on consent, at least from the army that keeps obeying. The allies censured the German people for not revolting against the Nazis. Anyway, that was a rhetorical justification.
But I end here my participation in this debate.

Worse than what the Nazis did in WW2. Patients and staff hiding in basements after hospital being shelled by the Ukrainian army in Slavyansk.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BocHcigCQAEo00A.jpg:large

Andrea Rocchelli, Italian reporter killed in Sloviansk.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bobbuw_CMAICSP6.jpg

Listen what is written on truck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESSLLmy4nbg

Italian journalist Andrea Ronchelli believed to have been killed in Ukraine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/italian-journalist-andrea-ronchelli-believed-killed-ukraine

http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/27/66/40/00/andrea-rocchelli.si.jpg

they already did, didn't you check the new government composition and relation to neo nazi groups? Sadly the real loser here is Ukrain and Ukrainian population, while Russia and the west are only fighting for their geopolitical and economical interest.

I second this, most of the people do not have direct benefit. For example, if you own a house in the ukraine.. whats the market price value now?

Probably the same.  Houses in every country remain on market for years, even decades, until they find some sucker to buy it off them.  Eastern Europe is full of terrible homes that are listed for $500K+, like it's a joke.  ;D

Local people pay different price.

Most likely the estate agency trying to find sucker abroad.

Maybe in Bulgaria or Serbia but there's no "pay different price" in most of Eastern Europe.  The real estate bubbles are rather extreme in those countries since no one is building enough new homes - and the lack of building is more a reaction to a lack of consumer purchasing power, what's the point of becoming a builder and building homes if the locals can't afford to buy?  

Many people in Eastern Europe still make less than $10K/year and there isn't cheap credit like in the west, so I don't see this changing anytime soon, there's a lack of incentive for builders to construct.  Therefore an artificial shortage of home will result in existing inventory being overvalued due to scarcity.

That is the problem. For example, farmland in Ukraine costs just around 1/20th of that in the United Kingdom. Right now, there are limits on the purchases of agricultural land by the foreigners. Once Ukraine joins the EU, those restrictions will be lifted and 90% of the Ukrainian farmland will end up with large corporations such as Monsanto.

Ukraine doesn't need Monsanto or any capital - they already have billionaires with more capital than they know what to do with it.

  Lifting foreign ownership is largely just going to result in land speculators who won't do anything with the land, they'll just introduce scarcity and make it painful for China and the Arabs who want to lease Ukrainian land for food production (foreign investors who want to create jobs for local Ukrainians, unlike the speculators).

I'm familiar with this in my locale - a lot of the best farming land has been untouched for decades as it's all owned by speculating foreign Germans who aren't doing anything with the land, which largely has resulted in negative consequences in employment and food costs due to scarcity of land.

None of the local billionaires are interested in agriculture or farmland. The agricultural industry in Ukraine is still devoid of large enterprises. The farmland is mostly owned by individual farmers or collectives. They will find it hard to compete with the EU giants, and will be forced to sell their land and move to some other profession.

this is the case in a lot of countries, prices for forgners that are presented by international agents are way over priced, while sometime they are in neighbouhoods that are built for that purpose sometimes it's a trap, local prices are much lower

Armed Ukrainian neo Nazi groups that fought against Assad in Syria joining ranks of  Right Sector. At least 300 so far.

http://vz.ru//society/2014/5/29/689162.html

According to the Supreme Mufti of Syria, Ahmad Badreddine some 100,000 foreign mercenaries are fighting in Syria (from 83 different nations). Some 350 Ukrainians are among them.

https://www.facebook.com/TsarovOleg/posts/1451785495032852?stream_ref=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx0vinsjb3M

Donbass: Ukrainian army firing on civilians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8w9K_7D-Gc

And Right Sector Italy branch attacking protesters in Milan!

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930311000233
http://vz.ru/news/2014/6/1/689425.html

It's well known that right sector and other nationalist para-military groups provided for security in Kiev since almost all the cops were fired because of connections to the previously government (see an old news on it: http://www.friatider.se/swede-patrols-ukraines-streets-with-right-wing-paramilitaries). That says much about abuses from the new Government.

And there are para-military units connected to the right-sector in eastern Ukraine, with some links with the Ukrainian army. The fact that the Svoboda controlled the ministry of defense until 25 March could explain that. But on the 25 its minister was replaced by a general with no political links to this party. And it seems the right-sector has taken no party in the hostilities with rebels, but mostly harassed civilians, as said by rebels (http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/06/02/right-sector-looting-attacking-citizens-eastern-ukraine-donbass-battalion-commander.html).

Since the candidates of Svoboda and the right sector had less than 2% in the recent presidential elections, it's amazing that Ukraine keep the first in the Government with all the political cost this has.

Just yesterday, leader of the Right Sector, Dmitro Yarosh claimed that he has recruited 23 mercenaries from Kiev, to take part in the fight against the Donetsk People's Army. They are taking an active part in the fighting, as well as looting and harassing the residents of Donbass.

The information that the right sector hasn't take part in the hostilities is presented by a commander of the rebels, not by the Ukrainian government.

And this conclusion seems to be typical of a band of amateurs, that like to show off for the pictures, but don't have what it takes to do the real fight.

They are amateurs. Most of them without much of military training. But remember that it didn't prevented them from going to Chechenya during the unrest there and taking part in the beheading of Russian soldiers.

http://nvua.net/ukraine/ZHizn-v-usloviyah-ATO-Fotoreportazh-iz-lagerey-ukrainskih-sil-v-Donbasse-3909.html

This latest tragedy with the Malaysian aircraft looks like a conspiracy designed to drag Russia into the war. No investigation has been conducted yet everyone already assigned the blame to Russia somehow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPg-5fuzd7U

+1

Also, they have black boxes and after one week, USA demanded secrecy and all parties had to agree, that they will tell what happend only in case that all will share the same opinion... that means, researches from other countries have no right to disagree with American opinion.