Bitcoin Forum

In our latest Squawkonomics interview, we asked Marc Faber about Bitcoin and its uses in developing markets across the world. One of the things he said: ""If someone tells me, Oh, in Cambodia or in India, only 10% of people have a bank account, then I would assume these people are not capable to transact in an encrypted currency""

Check out the full 4 minutes where Marc Faber talks Bitcoin IPOs in Cambodia, India, and more at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5YwtyDZ0jU

I believe he is completely wrong about this. Confused and uninformed. Experience in Africa with cell phone based payment systems has been massive success. Adoption to un-banked has been phenomenal and ubiquitous. Bitcoin based systems will be instantly superior in almost every way - including cost, cross-national application, value store, etc. Just need the tools - which are coming quickly.

Perhaps David Moskowitz of Coin Republic does have the right idea on this one. We did an interview with him right before we met with Marc, and you can clearly see that David and Marc are at opposing ends of this debate. You can check it out at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH68CWjN-lQ if you like.

Some Facts about Cambodia:
15 million people
18 million mobile subscribers
yes, 118% penetration! (multiple phones per user)

They can leapfrog the existing banking system.

David

Exactly. And much of the developing world (with billions and billions of un-banked) looks like that.   :)

I agree with you. I think bitcoin adoption may be slow there at first but it will soon pick up. The mobile banking market is massive there and bitcoin can further help.

This more than an economic issue, this is a moral one. Giving these people access to capital and a world market is simply the right thing to do.

most in the third world dont know about bitcoin yet
once they do they will start joining up

Bitcoin still have high dependency on the traditional bank system.

In this regard, he is right that people with no bank account will not see it as favorable alternative to local currency.

with bitcoin 100% in cambodia/india/africa can have a bank account!

My youngest wife in Kenya uses 3 cell phones. One receives calls for free, one makes phone calls for next to free, the other does text messages for basically free. She works in marketing doing cold sales calls and I know her boss helps pay for them.

When I was on the matatu (type of bus) into downtown Nairobi in the early morning, it was filled with young professionals. They were all playing with Androids and various tablets.

Most people don't realize how technology is leapfrogging in 3rd world countries. They are skipping the land lines. Phone and internet run off microtransactions. For instance, you can rent 3G Orange by the day. It is about 40 shillings ($.50) for about 3-6 MB/second download speed depending on the time of day. There are internet cafes everywhere for about $0.25 per hour.

Young professionals using these devices earn about $250 per month compared to typical salaries of less than $100 per month.

MPESA is already very popular in many African nations, but it is centralized, and governments keep raising the taxes on using it. I believe at some point this cause a huge shift to cryptocurrencies.

 

Exactly. This is the reality on the ground throughout the developing world. The infrastructure is not there yet for bitcoin, but it is on the way. And it will explode...unless it does not.  ;)

Bitcoin has a long way to go to ever be usable in Cambodia. It's not nearly user friendly enough and the risk of theft or loss is simply too high for the average person. It would take a full service company like Circle to build the infrastructure and support network required to enable adoption. The company would in effect have to operate like a bank initially, safeguarding people's funds until the market is mature enough to secure itself.

The developing world isn't ready for bitcoin not because it is unbanked. It just doesn't have enough technology widespread. Everyone has to have a computer to start with...

Actually I think the mobile phone penetration is sufficient. All these modern phones are effectively computers. A lot of these new phones are better than my laptop. I don't think that's an issue as much as the safety of using bitcoin. As well as the volatility.

Forget about the developing world. Even the vast majority of the people in the developed world won't be able to use bitcoins, unless they are made simpler, so that the non-tech savvy population will also be able to use them.

...

I am down here in Peru on a visit (and a little business) and hardly anyone has heard of Bitcoin.  Just one guy, who runs a money-changing store (dollars or euros to Peruvian Soles and back).  He was not the least bit interested in the whole BTC idea.

Not even a MoneyGram guy at a fancy mall here in Lima had heard of it.

It will take a while here in Peru.

***

I have heard from two people that BTC IS taking off in Argentina (because of gross financial mismanagement by their .gov).  So, maybe it will happen faster than I think now.

Thought most of the developed world are tech savy?

No, most people are definitely not tech savvy.

Even the most recalcitrant technophobes usually catch on. Who would have thought you would see 90 year olds talking on cell phones? There will also be companies that can make money by facilitating BTC use by people that aren't tech savvy. This is kind of a non issue.   

But the thing in this case is not whether they're tech savvy or not.
If they have no money to buy a computer or a smartphone, they can't know about technology.

A lot of third world places have cell service now. Cell towers are a lot less expensive to build than miles and miles of copper wire.

Yes, all this is true. But give it a couple of years, and this will all change. I believe much faster than most think.

But you seem to have missed the point. The point of the OP was that the developing nations were not ready for bitcoin. My view is they are absolutely ready, and will adopt rapidly (much faster than in the developed/banked world) as soon as bitcoin is ready. They don't have to get banked first, or even get ipads first. They have what they need and the desire. That's a very different story and potential use case for investment.

It is small now but it is already beginning..
https://www.bitpesa.co/

They also need it more than we do. Their governments are some of the worst offenders when it comes to manipulating currency. Given access to a world wide economic system would be huge for them

This.

Bitcoin could be a driver for smartphones.

...

Erdogan

Has iApple seen the light yet?  Last I heard, Apple was making it difficult to use BTC on their iPhones...

I may have to switch to an Android if Apple keeps this up...

They aren't ready for Bitcoin in all honesty. Let's face it, you look at 3rd world country and think, are they ready for a computer based crypto currency? Of course not. Bitcoin is designed and forever will be designed for the first world.

Need to have infrastructure in place as well as proper integration with the traditional banking service.

Maybe they changed something, I don't care, what I object to is that they can decide what apps go on to your device. That is not changed. As a private company, they can do what they like, but I do not have to be one of their customers either.

I agree with BitRider on this one.  Adoption will be slow to gain serious traction in some of these developing nations...but once it does...watch out!  Just imagine the developing nation crypto gold rush once the first of these nations has some degree of success embracing crypto's.  Can you say dominoe-effect?

The developing world only need the wealth to buy the phones. Everything is ready when they have it. The network providers know what to do, they can estimate the adoption rate, the public knows the usefulness of the phones and they know that they want them, and the production capacity for network equipment and terminals are ready.

In the west, it took 15 years to implement the automatic cell phone systems, in a developing country it may take only 2 years. It will be like an explosion, compared to the pioneer countries.

Agreed. They really have a need for it even more so than the west.

"Unbanked Developing World Not Ready for Bitcoin"

In a free market, it doesn't matter if "the world" is not ready.
What matter are the individuals ready to.
If they are, they can profit and increase their wealth at the expenses of the unready.

The developing world is adopting cellphones (even in Somalia, without a government to build the line and protect them).
The developing world is adopting the cellphone (and the smartphone) because hey have need it can satisfy (information).
The fishermen of Kerala had their income increased by 5-10% by adopting cellphones to know where to bring their fishes.

Woodworkers, carpenters, etc. increased their income with cellphones, because buyers can now find and call them with ease.

Everyone in Cambodia has cell phones already. The lack of phones is not the problem. The cell penetration there is actually over 100% from what someone mentioned on here a few days ago.

You also need a majority of people with 3G.
And the infrastructure to do that.
And not only cell phones, but smartphones.

He's wrong.

MPesa is a big hit in Kenya and similar countries.

More people have a cell phone with Internet than people have a bank account.

So bitcoin is more accesable than a bank account. All you need is a cellphone with Internet. And Internet is very important to people living in developing countries.

But is there a decent 3G coverage all around?
And every store has to have decent internet too.

This is where an innovation such as Vericoin with its newly-developed SMS wallet sending and receiving could be a fantastic facility for people in these nations. No need for 3G phones or Android/IOS tablets.

Dan Kaminsky, one of the most globally respected people in computing science has been assisting the lead developer, Patrick Nosker, in creating this system. Albeit with some regret from Patrick that he even mentioned Dan's name following the usual rampage of the great unwashed and unhinged cryptocurrency denizens demanding personal reassurances and no end of invasive interrogations.

3G coverage with 4G rolling out in major areas yeah.

Hopefully soon they can pay them with ease with a stable deflationary currency as well.

Bitcoin can and is being used on phones with SMS only. Coinbase enabled this several months ago and 37coins makes it possible as well.  I've played with 37coins sms bitcoin, and it works! No need for a smartphone.

Hopefully, there will soon be decentralized solutions as well.


David

Many of you guys need to travel more, or at least read more - and look at the adoption facts. You are not seeing reality clearly. The developing world is exploding with young people, almost every one of which has a phone (except in the poorest of the poor places) and even there the village shares 2 or 3 phones among the people.

Feature phones already have a +50% adoption rate in Africa.

And smart phones are becoming more ubiquitous than most imagine. Here, some exciting homework...

http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/07/cheap-devices-like-mozillas-25-smartphone-to-bring-more-of-developing-world-online/
http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/08/in-3-5-years-most-africans-will-have-smartphones/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/02/13/emerging-nations-catching-up-to-u-s-on-technology-adoption-especially-mobile-and-social-media-use/

This is not a future thing. It has already happened. And bitcoin does not even need smart phones. Just text, as other posters have mentioned and MPesa has proved. There are many brilliant and mission driven bitcoiners working hard on this at this moment. Tools are going to explode on the market next year and the following as the first round of VC money starts to see some early results. Problems to solve? Absolutely. Doable in a couple of years, absolutely.

My god, the remittance market alone is massive and currently takes huge percentages for moving money from the poorest to the poorest. That will change fast - as soon as there is a better option.

And as Ron has pointed out repeatedly, when people really need something it drives the use adoption even faster. And these folks need bitcoin bad - in dozens of use cases.