Bitcoin Forum

Following up on the conversations on Iran and Bitcoin.
 
 A girlfriend and I are hoping to move together to Europe from Argentina. I'm from Europe.

She has savings in a bank account here which is well in excess of what the tax authorities allow her to convert. This is also devaluing at about 25% a year.

Typically what people here do to avoid this is:

- take cash to a neighbouring country and exchange it there
- buy things like property and even cars

However, the first is not a good option because there is a limit of $10,000 and also carrying and storing this is a risk too.

How do we get this cash out of the country?

At first I thought I could sell her something in a different currency outside the country via a webcart checkout and credit card.
Add item "Being a great boyfriend for a year" and x5.
 But the problem with this is that the transaction will be routed through the central bank of Argentina and they convert and reconvert the currency - double conversion costs. This would be in addition to a ~4% Google Checkout fee. The other problem is that the transaction is logged to her account. If I go unverified with Paypal, Moneybookers or Google Checkout then I can have some anonimity but I've heard so many horror stories of unverfied accounts on these services. Is this worry justified? It shouldn't be a problem for someone who isn't intending to visit Argentina.

The next one I thought of was just to buy a load of gold here. But then we're coming into Europe with a stash of gold and that looks dodgy as heck.

Chile is close, which was where tradehill was based... shame.

The second way of spending the cash on something could be an idea but I can't think of many things that are liquid (easy to sell) this way. It's not enough for a house but is enough for a car...

Ideas?
Regards marrying if you must bring it up... It's a complicated one. Aside from the emotional side of that, for me there's an element of marrying into a country and I don't want be associated with Argentina in that sense as this has knock-on effects. Worldwide taxation is just one example.

You can buy bitcoins with local currency and take them out of the country.

Gosh, if only there were some kind of digital currency that you could buy that wouldn't be subjected to all those conversion fees, and that could be transferred to someone in Europe nearly instantly.  That would be neat.

Or that you could easily store on a USB stick. Sigh. If only there was such a thing.

This thread is hilarious.

Is there no way to buy Bitcoins with her money?  You mention Tradehill, which makes me think you've already thought about the Bitcoin route, which makes me think that there aren't any exchanges currently accepting whatever currency Argentinians use.

Hilarious is that you cannot read the whole thread properly, see my post on #2.

yep, seems rather obvious, find a miner in Argentina or a nearby country that has costs in the local currency & is happy to exchange BTC for it, preferably on an ongoing basis until all your GF's stash of Pesos has been liberated, I'd be interested to hear how you get on with that & as I expect there's a demand for this, how much over the current Mt.Gox exchange rate you will have to pay

plus if I ever visit Argentina which is quite possible as I have free accommodations there from contacts, then I would look in to the demand for BTC & perhaps fund my local living/ traveling around costs by exchanging for Pesos

alternatively if you have the facilities & moderate electricity costs there then to start mining yourself until the above has been achieved, failing both those then I would buy 1 or 2 (more if you plan to visit regularly) high end collectable numismatic or philately items say which would be much more anonymous when traveling or sending than a couple of kilos of gold - perhaps a classic make high end antique piece of jewelery that she could just wear or second hand premium watch each from reputable dealers once you've researched the resale values where ever you plan to sell - there's a bunch of really good quality prestige antiques in Argentina from when it was one of the wealthiest countries in the world (if not the wealthiest - certainly was in the Americas) just a few generations ago - a lot of these now being sold off cheap due to ongoing total universal corruption there fucking everything up economy wise

I already read the whole thread before posting.  You didn't make mention of any exchanges that currently accept whatever currency is used in Argentina.  Saying "You can buy bitcoins with local currency" doesn't explain how or where this might take place.  For all I know, you could have been referring to just finding someone else in the country who uses Bitcoins and is looking to buy more than $10,000 worth of them.

also see this thread re buying BTC with Brazilian Reais

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=26608.0;topicseen

looks like there's about a 5% mark up at a quick glance

edit, scanning the rest of the thread - fee is now 9% also see last post where it can be done in person in Rio I believe

Pull the cash out slowly, so as not to alert the authorities that you are emptying the account. Convert the cash into US$ traveler's cheques at your local American Express office. Have traveler's cheques mailed to you in Europe via FedEx, insured for full value as "valuable documents". Rinse and repeat.

Or convert the entire account into a US$ denominated account. Use this account to buy btc on any of the exchanges. Leave, and convert them back into Euros once in Europe.

that's way easier & LG has deep respect here for his insight, I'd totally go with those options, I just asked the Argentinian friend who's place I'm looking after how he or the peeps he knew would go about it & he couldn't come up with any useful methods - "it's really complicated" etc... (he is an artist though who left decades ago), but he did emphasize that you'd be best doing this soonest as it looks like they're fast headed to yet another economic devastation due to the ongoing completely endemic corruption there

Perhaps you can find a counterparty to a trade through:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Argentina

thanks for the ideas. We have a potential exchange partner now in argentina at 4%.

Other options included gold and sending from uruguay($60), both of these cheaper and she'll trust this more. Personally i don't trust the rate that much too.

Now the problem is the other end. If i accept a payment i could be taxed at 20%. I can't see a place selling gold for bitcoin in europe. Unverified accounts such as paypal,skrill etc have a tendancy to be closed randomly and aren't fsa covered should the company go bust or make a mistake.
Another way could be buying mining equipment but she won't understand that and she'll put it down as one of my madcap ideas. We don't have anywhere to plug it in anyway.
 
The other one of course is keep the funds here and investing. This could be a good idea But then it's a matter of finding land cheap enough.

The old Soviet Union route was converting all your money to diamonds. You can just buy a whole bunch of diamond rings, bracelets, or whatever. Downside is you'll sell them for likely quite a bit less than what you bought them for. In Soviet Russia, some even resorted to stuffing the diamonds into baby watermelons, letting the melons heal and grow up, and then just smuggling a whole bunch of REALLY expensive watermelons.

• Find a local bitcoin exchanger (preferably) that will do exchanges person to person. I know there are some in Buenos Aires. Take the cash to them and buy coins. They will be a fee of course.
• Leave your coins in cold storage. Preferably a paper wallet you generated offline.
• MOVE out of Argentinanistan (as a friend of mine from there calls it, no offense intended :) )
• Once you arrive to your destination, exchange your coins back to fiat. Exchange only what you need, save the rest in BTC.

Side note about Argentina: I have many dear friends from there. It is an absolute shame what has become of that country, once a world power.

Maybe next month I can help you. It would be great to visit Argentina too!

If I were to move to Buenos Aires for a while, what kind of markup can I get for selling BTC for living expenses? 

If you want to exchange for bitcoins try to exchange them back to fiat as soon as possible because (don't keep the BTC for more than a week), as you probably know, until quite recently 25% was how much BTC's value could change in a day, not a year like with your Argentinian pesos.

Just go for a gangsta gold chain to pass a couple of kilos across any customs.

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZtXDvoormWP-jfQJc3gQXEX7eXcYd-jsa42d8j082uNpkgdzE_Q

Just avoid this:
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdCQoNd7rqWswbZSyLIQy6swe0aVL3A6J2dcfIUBcZDmMbBdzc

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/84794--black-market-emerges-in-argentina-as-government-imposes-currency-controls (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/84794--black-market-emerges-in-argentina-as-government-imposes-currency-controls)

Looks like 23% markup according to this article.  I wonder if bitcoins could get a similar rate.  I get my wages paid into a foreign bank account so I could just transfer it onto Intersango, buy bitcoins, and sell them for a markup.  Seems like bitcoins should be worth even more than USD because its easier to take them across borders.

Not sure how well this would work: Buy mining equipment, set it up as a company on GLBSE and sell (all / most of) the shares for bitcoin. You'd need someone to take over drifting the rig once you leave, obviously. Maybe there are already operators there you could team up with.

I think residential electricity is subsidized and very cheap in Argentina, so mining could be profitable.  The problem is the import tax on electronics.  It would be prohibitively expensive to import the mining rigs.

The first South American exchange opens:

http://www.thebitcointrader.com/2012/06/bitcoin-exchange-opens-in-colombia.html

Well, I'ld bet Jered of Tradehill (Chile) might disagree about that being first.  And Mercado Bitcoin too:
 - http://www.mercadobitcoin.com.br

But from the sounds of it this Colombian exchange might come in handy for exchanging at the border too.


 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86276.msg948813#msg948813
 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-07/chavez-losing-out-to-benjamin-as-venezuela-seek-dollar.html

http://www.go4funding.com/First-Bitcoin-Exchange-in-Colombia/P30674.html  I found this the other day while researching something else. I wonder why they dont utilise glbse ?

Ah sorry my mistake, I'd assumed that Tradehill though based in Chile didn't actually do local Peso exchanges but I may be wrong about that & mercardobitcoin.com.br looks excellent - I'd missed that one

Yup, though the BTC/CLP spread was pretty big, especially with the volatility.

 - http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/thCLP#igWeeklyzczsg2011-06-01zeg2012-02-15ztgSzm1g10zm2g25

They also listed BTC/PEN (Peruvian nuevo sol) but never started trading it, apparently.

I see that btc-direct.fr says they will be offering to Mexico as one of the countries they sell bitcoins to (via their SMS-based carrier billing network).  I know that is North America, but since it the closest alternate method to the north I thought I'ld mention it.

I'm waiting to hear of someone opening an exchange or somehow facilitating people selling bitcoins in Mexico for MXN, especially as it's now so easy to buy them with USD in the States

Mexico, one of the best documented examples of migration and remittances, received remittance inflows of almost 24 Billion US$ in 2007

Other big markets from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance

Today’s African Diaspora consists of approximately 20 to 30 million adults, who send about USD 40 billion annually to their families and local communities back home.

India received 55 Billion US$ in 2010 & China 51 Billion US$ in 2010.

Now that Bitcoin Nordic accepts payments using CashU, which in turn accepts UKash vouchers for adding funds, bitcoins can now be purchased in quite a few more countries:

in the Latin American region:

 - Argentina
 - Mexico
 - Bolivia
 - Brazil
 - Colombia
 - Equador
 - Uraguay

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/UKash#Central_and_South_America
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Nordic
 - http://www.BitcoinNordic.com