Bitcoin Forum

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* Update 7 July 2014: PLEASE NOTE WE HAVE BEEN FUNDED. *
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655464.msg7713945#msg7713945

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Introduction
DataTank Mining is a crowd funded and professional effort to take efficiencies in Bitcoin mining to the next level, and to solve some of the fundamental challenges that miners face today. The aim is to provide capacity and managed mining services to the public, mining for Bitcoin and any of the other crypto currencies of importance. Our business plan is focused on capacity and efficiency, and a radical departure from Bitcoin mining of the past.

Technology
Hardware is deployed in immersion cooled container mining systems using 3M™ Novec™ Engineered Fluids without heatsinks, fans or other mechanical parts or cables. With integrated power, networking and everything else required for mining, systems are universal, reusable, and most importantly, faster online and less expensive to build and operate than other methods of deployment.

Tech Introduction Video
http://www.vimeo.com/datatank/mining

The Offering
We are offering units of capacity of DataTank container mining systems in order to raise funds. Two different types are available, allowing investors to either invest in both "capacity and mining hardware" (A), or in "capacity only" (B).

Please read our full prospectus for details.

http://www.datatank-mining.com/images/datatank-mining-ops-prospectus-350px.jpg (http://www.datatank-mining.com/files/DataTank_Mining_Ops_Prospectus.pdf)

(prospectus has been replaced with a shorter document: Introduction to DataTank Mining. Original prospectus archived for historical reasons here (http://www.datatank-mining.com/files/DataTank_Mining_Ops_Prospectus_v1.pdf))

Prospectus URL:
http://www.datatank-mining.com/files/DataTank_Mining_Ops_Prospectus.pdf

How to buy Shares/Units:
Units will be sold in 4 rounds on HavelockInvestments.com, discounts for early investors will be available (public offer date preliminary set to July 7).

Angel investors can also purchase units directly from DataTank Mining, please contact us via email. A minimum purchase amount of 100kW (10,000 units) applies for direct shares.

Dividend Payments
Profits will be paid weekly in form of dividends. First payments are expected when the initial hardware is deployed, 3-6 months after successful fund raising.

Reference DataTank Key Facts:

• $18/kW total operating cost per month
  (all in, including mining cluster electricity, cooling, full time staff, rent)
• 10 days or less to pay full infrastructure
  (heatsink miners will probably need longer than that to wait for FedEx and plugin their fans)
• 0 days to pay infrastructure on second deployment
• PUE <1.01 (less than 1% for cooling electricity)
• No heatsinks, no fans, no noise, no dust

Reference Case 2PH ASICMiner BE200 Hardware

• 2,400 DataTank Immersion Blades (80x AM BE 200/board)
• Integrated power, managed networking, servers
• <$820/T (<$0.82/G) total cluster with deployed DataTank system  on-site
• <$532/T (<$0.54/G) total cluster with power, servers, networking (no DataTank System)
• <$438/T (<$0.44/G) cluster only without power, servers, networking (no DataTank System)
• Hardware produced in-house by DataTank Mining
• Estimated chip price based on recent data, future price may be lower

Hardware and Currencies
Due to our past experience with ASICMiner, we are committed to using ASICMiner hardware for our own capacity, until we see a reason not to. DataTank systems are compatible with any hardware, including with chips from Spondoolies Tech, InnoSilicon, Hashra, HashFast, GridSeed, Cointerra, Butterfly Labs, Bitfury, Alcheminer, Avalon, ASICminer and more. Bitcoin, Scrypt, any other hardware, including GPU computers.
We are in direct contact with several of these manufacturers to get their hardware ready for immersion.

DataTank Design Guidelines for ASIC board manufacturers can be found here (PDF):
https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0ByWHHc0u_thNdzB3c2hvVzJkcTQ

Company & Founders
DataTank Mining Limited is a technology company founded by the Bitcoin cluster engineers at Allied Control. While headquartered in Hong Kong, the world's freest economy in the word for 20 years standing, the company focuses at overseas deployments, where electricity rates are low and renewable electricity (hydro, wind, geothermal) is available in abundant quantities. The team runs its own SMD and CNC production line and has produced immersion cooling systems and ASIC boards in large quantities. During years of engineering time, we have built a network of partners, resources and contacts in Asia, Europe and the USA. Our first larger scale immersion cooled cluster consisted of 6048 Xilinx®Spartan-6 FPGAs in 24 tanks and was built in early 2012 with the Bitcoin still below $5.

Some of our previous work:

YouTube: ASICMiner Bitcoin Cluster Hong Kong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavKweMrP4

Analysis of Large Scale Industrial Bitcoin Mining Operations
http://www.immersion-cooling.com/publications/Analysis_of_Large-Scale_Bitcoin_Mining_Operations.pdf

Why DataTank Immersion Cooling is cheaper than anything else for Bitcoin mining
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zQwlGoDfHgqlPFlLuUviKzkSUepWMTKcwGaNI_nqNjg/edit

Case Study Uptime Institute Symposium: Immersion-2 System
http://symposium.uptimeinstitute.com/images/stories/symposium2014/case-studies/3m-allied-control-immersion-cooling-case-study.pdf

Bitcoin 2-Phase Immersion Cooling & Implications for High Performance Computing
http://www.allied-control.com/publications/Electronics_Cooling_Bitcoin_2-Phase_Immersion_and_Implications_on_HPC.pdf

2-Phase Immersion Cooling Concept for Intel® Xeon Phi™ Coprocessor Cluster
http://www.allied-control.com/immersion-cooling/xeon-phi-immersion-cooling-concept

Value Proposition

• Cuts investment in half or doubles hashrate with identical investment
• Rapid deployment leads to significantly higher profits, ROI in weeks
• Infrastructure at unparalleled low prices, reusable systems with zero overhead
• Most efficient ASICs are purchased in time for deployment
• DataTank is the result of a multi-year effort of miners and ASIC manufacturers
• Safety, transparency and reliability of operation
• Public ownership of capacity

Main Revenue Sources for unit holders

• Maximize direct and indirect mining income for unit holders.
• Franchising or leasing spare capacity for profit share.
• ASIC co-location and hosting directly or with strategic partners.
• Introduction of spare capacity via bidding model.
• Digital marketplace, contracts, cloud mining.

Insurance (excerpt):

In case production cost of final mining hardware is lower than raised funds or there is a significant movement in Bitcoin price, the difference will be paid back in form of additional units or via dividend payments or both.
The company will publish financial statements and certified audits frequently to make calculation of operating expenses transparent.

DataTank Capacity Explained

The permanent measures of capacity at DataTank Mining are MW and kW. This is in contrast to MH/s, GH/s or PH/s or other measures of hashing power. These measures are important to calculate mining income at a certain period of time, but they change depending on network difficulty and currency being mined. What does not change over time is the available power, infrastructure and cooling capacity.

As an example, today 1kW of Bitcoin ASICs may produce 1.66TH. When new hardware (ie. 28nm) is released, the same 1kW of power may produce over 3TH by simply pulling out the old board and replacing it with the new one. Alternatively, it could be used to mine a different currency altogether (Scrypt).

Once in place, capacity will be used again and again, including its power supply, infrastructure, and anything else. Nothing, except the boards with chips, has to change.

Detailed information:
http://www.datatank-mining.com/capacity-explained/

Questions and Updates
Questions are welcome and will be addressed in this forum before the date of public offering.

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Update 19 Jun 2014:

Q: why would it take so long (3-6m) to deploy containers?
A: The goal is to deploy in the fastest time possible, but hardware and infrastructure deployments on a megawatt scale take time. It also has to be done internationally and safe without risks. Furthermore, it is not uncommon that manufacturers of electronic or infrastructure components take up to 12-16 weeks to deliver, or even longer on such a scale.
Furthmore, we have to be frank to investors. We have good people involved and hands-on experience building some of the large mines ourselves. We also have our own production facility in-house, within our very own rooms. We believe we are capable of making such an assessment.

Q: Is DataTank Mining the same as Allied Control
A: DataTank Mining is a spin-off of Allied Control and we are indeed the same people. The purpose is to focus 100% on mining infrastructure.

Q: When a better chip becomes available after DTMA starts operations, what is the procedure for swapping to the new chip and how would it be funded?
A: When hardware in DTMA capacity (hardware + capacity) stops being efficient, boards can be removed and DTMA effectively becomes the same as DMTB (capacity only).
DTMA or DTMB holders can chose to purchase (at internal cost) new hardware either by reinvesting paid dividends or raising new funds. Alternatively unit holders can send in their own hardware and get it deployed instead. We are working with hardware and ASIC manufactures (SHA and Scyrpt) to make hardware available.

Q: How would DataTank Mining's interests be aligned with shareholders'?
A: DataTank Mining's profit comes from deploying 20% of _identical_ hardware alongside the public capacity. Hence, we only earn money if we are successful. The 20% fee on operating cost is used to fund the day-to-day operation, including on-site staff providing various services such as ongoing hardware re-deployments, maintenance and security etc.
DataTank Mining and Allied Control builds and runs systems at-cost, there is no profit involved. In fact, running systems internally by ourselves also means that we can build them cheaper - we don't require bells and whistles on our own systems.

Q: What happens if the Bitcoin value goes down between IPO and deployment.
A: To minimize risks, the most sensible approach is to immediately exchange BTC for USD as infrastructure is paid in fiat money. For managing BTC/USD for actual hardware, a sensible approach will be followed to bridge the time between IPO and hardware acquisition.

Q: How will we individually as unit holders decide to reinvest (percentage) vs. no reinvestment?
A: As 100% of the income is paid out, it will be an individual decision to reinvest or not. DataTank Mining will not keep income as reserve for re-investment. 100% is paid out.

Q: With scrypt mining, will you establish a different type of shares or will it becomes a separate unit? Or will scrypt mining capacity be included in the DTMA/DTMB?
A: DTMA and DTMB holders can deploy new boards by either directly purchasing hardware from DataTank Mining (at cost) or third parties and mailing hardware in. New funds can be considered, this will be a community approach.

Q: Will ROI be measured in fiat or BTC?
A: It will be measured in the currency that is being mined. Initially BTC in the case of DTMA. DTMB will be up to the individual miners using the capacity. This may be subject to change over time in order to provide a practial solution (dividend distribution may be BTC while mining for other currencies etc).

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Progress Update 23 Jun 2014:

Here is a first progress update since the original announcement of DataTank Mining last week.

• The public sale of capacity units on HavelockInvestments.com has been pushed back (preliminary date Monday July 7, after the U.S. Marshall's  Service Bitcoin auction and the July 4 weekend). In the meantime, early investors may contact us by email.
   
• We are in discussion with a manufacturer to provide ASIC hardware in return for DataTank capacity. This is an unexpected turn of events, but it may prove to be a very important development with the potential to (a) reduce the need to finance chips and outlay required at the time of deployment, and (b) to speed up the production pipeline earlier than expected. We have agreed not to post details before a consensus is reached. How this affects existing and future DTMA holders will remain to be seen when we have results.
   
• We have also received inquires for exclusive partnerships from two different known parties in the mining space, and at least one of them is seriously considered at the moment.
   
Several questions have been raised in regards to the choice of locations. We would like to comment as follows:

• DataTank Mining is not fixed on a specific location (such as the USA) and can deploy in parallel if required, even internationally (minimum requirement for DataTank Mining systems is power feed and internet, deployment of containers can be indoors or outdoors).

• Next to pure electricity prices, consideration is given to other factors such as long term (and political) stability, unrestricted trade and access for staff and also local resources and talented personnel available.

• Average electricity price at DTM's first choice locations is below $0.03, while there are several more locations (including China) available with $0.03 to $0.05/kWh. We would like to hear opinions via email, especially in regards to US or China as locations of choice.

We also would like to remind everyone that DataTank Mining is NOT offering shares in the company, but units of capacity ("units") of DataTank container mining systems (ie. one unit represents 0.01 Kilowatt (kW). 100 units are one 1 kW block).

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Update 07 Jul 2014:

We are pleased to report several positive developments.

Offering on Havelock:

•   DataTank Mining has received enough funding via direct investments in the pre-offering phase to proceed with the business plan.

•   Offering of single DataTank Mining units on HavelockInvesetments.com has been cancelled for the time being. The internal platform (control panel) will be developed in parallel to the initial DataTank systems.

•   The prospectus will be updated in the near future to reflect latest information and further changes. Most significant changes are that DTMA units (capacity and mining hardware) won't be necessary in its current form. This is a step towards reducing investment risks and making DataTank Mining a more predictable venture. DTMA and investment in future hardware for future deployment has caused confusion that can be avoided (we are working with DTMA direct investors to convert units).

•   Direct investments into capacity units are always welcome by emailing to admin@datatank-mining.com. Please note that until the internal platform is available, a minimum purchase of 10,000 units (edit: 100kW).

•   We apologize for the dust to the community and to HavelockInvesetments.com, please bear with us to make this not only the most efficient mining venture, but also to raise the bar for safe mining investments. We plan to make this as predictable as possible for participants and partners.

Other Information:

•   Production for DataTank No. 1 has already commenced and AM BE200 hardware is the hardware of choice for initial deployment. We are currently evaluating if Scrypt hardware will be available in time for at least a partial deployment to use some spare capacity.

•   We keep working with ASIC manufactures for their current and future chips to make them available as immersion blades. We are also offering capacity in DataTank systems and prototyping runs to existing and new ASIC manufacturers to get their hardware immersion ready.

•   We will keep working on hardware support, deployment locations, and other partnerships while the initial DataTank container systems are built for deployment.

•   We would like to re-emphasize that DataTank systems and the operation expenses include everything required for mining, including electrical switchgear, transformers, power supplies, cooling, rents, 24/7 on-site support staff, iPhone control panel, and anything else that is needed for operation. There are _no_ other costs.

•   Reselling of ASIC hardware for air cooling users will be possible. Please note that immersion blades are based on a dual design for immersion and air cooling (1U form factor or tube-like) and we encourage manufacturers to follow our design guidelines.
https://www.googledrive.com/host/0ByWHHc0u_thNT293cTl6OXBVZms/AirCooling_01.pdf
https://github.com/blockerupter/AM_Tube/blob/master/complete_set.png
https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0ByWHHc0u_thNdzB3c2hvVzJkcTQ

•   If reselling for air-cooling is indeed in demand by Q4 2014 or Q1 2015, DTM will make available at-cost DIY reselling packages that consist of inexpensive cardboard boxes, thermal paste, heatsinks and fans, with a compartment for immersion blades. DTM will also offer shipping services at a transparent small fee to unit holders to liquidate their hardware (with or without air cooling kit).

Please also follow DataTank Mining on Twitter to receive updates:
http://www.twitter.com/DataTankMining

We also posted a couple of videos recently showing several chips in action and will keep posting progress reports and pictures frequently:
http://www.vimeo.com/datatank/

I approve of this message  ;D

I am working for DataTank Mining.

Hot item this. Anyone got access to a farm with a lot of pigs or cattle and an existing biodigestor? I am not joking.

Reserved

any room in that tank for my gourami? kidding. very interested.

Glad to see that this project will be run by allied control themselves and not one of their customers.

Few questions:


Is that including the cost of the asics?


Is this accurate? That translates to about $0.025/kwh which would be incredibly good.

hmmm hmmm hmmm ... so shareholders are buying shares=MWs, so it will be something like buying dedicated hashrate in a cloud mining operation like cex.io ? So no profit for shareholders from company sales ? Just from mining, so its just like 3-6months pre-order space for hosted cloud mining ? Am I seeing this right ?

I'll be in touch 100%. This could go very well in a new center of ours.

Watching.

As I see this:
DTMA shares - full containers are build, with hashing hardware, 100% net profit from mining as dividends, 3+ months after IPO
DTMB shares - only containers are build, rented to clients who provide hashing hardware, 20% net profit from mining to shareholders

No sales of containers, but hashing hardware can be replaced later, with some future reinvestment plan?

Yes, but only from your container(your pre-rented MW), right? With profit depreciation from day1

So its quite possible that they will be releasing "shares" in multiple batches, for less and for less and again for less ... until they reach zero-sum. Good for company, because they will have shitloads of orders, full hands of work, great demand for fluid, making huge profit all along the way with 0 risk. And shareholders in the end will stay with dick in hand and with containers full of hosted hashing power making barely any profit, if not in loss assuming that $26000 operating monthly cost. So its like participating in classic mining race with big guys. I was never a fan of cloud mining, the shares can simply only go down, because 1 MW will produce less and less BTC every day, I will pass.

From the prospectus:

Revenue forecast tables on page 15 in Prospectus are done as the mining starts.. yesterday (diff first month 12750M)?

10 containers, 2,400 DataTank Immersion Blades (80x AM BE 200/board) in 1 container = 940 000 $ order from ASICminer, minus costs, its aroud 1$/dividends/AM share from 1 container produced by DataMining  :-X

I guess they'll end up at about 0.5-2.0% of the network with a setup of 24PH/s

Interesting!!  I'd love it if friedcat could confirm/deny any statement/sentence in the OP... :)

Very interesting. If this is succesfull they might can become market leader if they start mass producing those things and me asicminer shares $$$$.

Not investing in this one already have a investment in black arrow and hope I can still make some profits before this starts running. I have been in enough rat races.

When this becomes mainstream I also hope the btc price to climb up big.

reserved

Following thread. Looking forward to this, and looking forward to there being validation of this operation.

Considering
Since it uses AM chips and pending a FC confirmation this is worth a serious consideration

Thanks to everyone for their enthusiasm! The DataTank team is glad to see this offering come to fruition after much careful thought and planning.


Yes, the cost of the ASICs are included in that calculation and the $18/kW is accurate as well. The significantly decreased operating and cooling costs are some of the main competitive advantages of the DataTank containers.



Unit purchasers are purchasing either ASIC Mining hardware + the DataTank capacity/infrastructure (DTMA) or solely the capacity/infrastructure (DTMB) on a per-container basis.

This way, investors can choose whether they would prefer to invest in both mining hardware and capacity or simply capacity/infrastructure to be rented to others.

DTMA holders will own both the mining hardware and the container (capacity), allowing them to determine the direction of the mining operation and the capacity. The most efficient hardware available at the time of deployment will be used.



DTMA unitholders will own the mining equipment, so they will determine whether or not to reinvest mining profits to purchase additional hardware. DTMB will seek to sign profitable agreements with mining partners, whether they be revenue share, straight lease, or some other revenue model.



This forecast is simply an example if DTMA were to deploy today. Completed containers will be outfitted with the most efficient mining hardware available at the time of deployment.



Patience, young Padawan  :)

Wow, I had no idea electricity could be that cheap.

So whaddaya'all think, a blue chip like NEOBEE, or not quite?

awesome :D
GG to you guys.
so hum what percentage will be the float for public shareholders? IPO price? ;D

edit: from prospectus


OMG OMG :D :D :D

So you've got a couple coins stashed away?
and
Why in heaven list on havelol? You know it's shady as hell.

I wish.


Capacity is also available via direct purchase.

Second the request for FC verification that DataTank is a current partner.

@ datatank-pr

I noticed you expect each 1.2mw container to house 2PH.

Does this mean that asics have been tested at 0.6w/gh?

I can confirm that this offer is legit.

Please do your due diligence w/ respect to the viability of the investment (which means run your own numbers).

Finally something interesting pops up

This is the first mining prospectus that I've seen with difficulty numbers that could actually make sense.

96,822 billion by the end of 2014 is very possible.

I'm am very interested in this.

I'm still skimming through, forgive me if this is obvious, but what is the valuation in BTC of the IPO?  I see DTMA are 0.028 BTC (listed as 'example' so subject to change) and if you have 60,000+ units you can be a board member.  That's like 1,680 BTC per board seat.  How many shares are there?

I second this.

They obviously already have a very solid business in place, or so their prospectus leads me to believe...so why create an offering in the first place? From what we've seen in the past, usually there's some monstrous amount of total shares (e.g. 111.6K "A" units out of 1,000,000 released to the public, giving them an instant value of BTC28,000). This is speculation of course, but I am a genuinely curious.

Minimum is 5 containers. It will probably be 120,000 shares per container so 600,000 shares or 16,800 btc.

That's a lot of cash.  $12 million? 

But in this crypto world it seems like we can raise that kind of money.

Minimum 5 containers.. I feel like an ass for always asking questions without reading anything, but we're raising money as a company to buy as many containers as possible, right?  So infinite shares available during funding rounds?

Seems interesting, but the last time I bought a bitcoin securities IPO with a "prospectus" this shiny things didn't work out so well for me:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82866.msg1691037#msg1691037

was answered:

lets be clear, They dont have a solid business in place. That's disingenuous.


They do however, possess technology and technical knowledge that is particularly unique; when coupled with a sound business plan could lead to having a solid business.

i'd like to know what the valuation is also, but more importantly, what datatank owns in their inventory pre-ipo is also particularly critical to me; let's see just how invested in this technology they really are and where exactly our IPO money will go towards

Thanks Jutarul I will need to do the numbers again but its good to know that it is confirmed
I did enjoy those videos though from their prospectus.

This seems awesome, but I would be so much more comfortable if the prospectus was less cavalier about securities laws, for the sake of the company and the founders.

I'm not saying they need to call in Simpson Thacher, but paying lip service to the basics would go a long way -- e.g. adding offering legends, subscription documents with accredited investor reps, etc.

Otherwise there will always be a layer of compliance risk, especially given the personal info on Page 8, that could have been avoided.

Having been in communication with these guys a bit I can say that they are definitely not NEO & BEE types. These guys definitely know what they are doing and they have proven that they can deliver since they have already done so. Unlike many offerings, their technical skills and abilities are pretty well proven.

The hard part will be execution and scaling the business. It's great to see experts bringing innovation to market that all miners will have access to. I am cautiously optimistic, and look forward to watching this come together.

I, too, await confirmation from FC - you'd figure something of this nature would have warranted a release with joint statements from DT and AM?

Jutarul posted above that he confirms the involvement (He's a board member of AM)

Very interesting!

Subscribed :)

Let's not confuse "technical ability" with "ability to successfully operate a business that is Bitcoin-profitable" or even "ability to not realise you have many millions of Dollars worth of Bitcoin in a 150kb file and could disappear without a trace".

I like where this offering is going, but the 1 page "business strategy" is worthless. Given how reliant this company is on paying backend costs in fiat, they would need to present a great deal of business acumen coupled with a really solid and detailed strategy to demonstrate a glimmer of hope that investing in this will be more profitable than just holding your Bitcoin over the same period. Additionally, don't confuse the possibility of them being fiat profitable with them being Bitcoin profitable - the chance of the former may be very high indeed, but just like very nearly every mining operation that has ever existed, the chance of the latter is slim to none.

There's also minimal information as to who the operators are and whether they have a credible and long-standing WoT presence (far from infallible, but at least a step in the right direction). Why is this important? Well, for one thing, shutting down a business is trivial, abandoning it doubly so. Being an identifiable and amicable person means nothing (see: Neo&Bee). Having a registered business means nothing (see: AMC/VMC and many others). Trust is a product of provable engagements over time, coupled with an ongoing demonstration of business acumen by the operator(s) (which could be done, for example, by said operator(s) being involved in discussions of other businesses, and by providing advice and/or criticism they demonstrate that they at least have the knowledge to do better). Thus far there is little evidence of either of that here.

I'm certainly not calling this a scam, but I am saying that the counterparty risk is massive and disproportional, and there is little evidence that this will make you more Bitcoin than you invest (although it may very well end up being fiat profitable).

Source? There are plenty of mining operations that made money. In fact it was pretty hard to not reach a positive ROI by now with most asics.


They have something better than WOT. Real names and real business experience. This is not some people with no history/reputation showing up asking for money.

And WOT is the most useless system ever. Do you honestly think it prevents any scams?

I'll turn that around and ask you to list 3 mining operations that were Bitcoin profitable. To simplify, you can just list the asset, what the IPO share price was, and what BTC dividends to date would have been for 1 BTC invested.


We had/have real names and real business experience for AMC/VMC (Kenneth Slaughter), for Neo&Bee (Danny Brewster), for BTCQuick (Jerrod Brunce), for Hashfast (Eduardo DeCastro), for BASIC mining (Eric Corlew). Heck, we even had KLYE's real name. Your belief that a real life identity or a lack of a criminal record means anything whatsoever is laughable at best.

The WoT does not prevent scams. It is qualitative, not quantitative. There are people I personally know and have established trust with who have a negative WoT rating (due to Sybil attacks). With something like a Bitcoin asset, the WoT provides a level of historicity wherein someone's relationships and dealings over time are detailed and available for inspection. Additionally, given the qualitative nature of the WoT, it allows me to see who in my Level 1 or Level 2 trust group the asset operator has had dealings and engagements with before. That opens it up for conversation, as I can talk to those people who I already trust (directly or indirectly) and find out about their dealings with the person. Red flags show up very quickly. Thus, the WoT is not too dissimilar to what LinkedIn is trying to do for business relationships, except that the rating system allows a level of detail that LinkedIn does not, and it is free to use and observe (where any vaguely useful use of LinkedIn requires a substantial monthly payment).

I understand that the concept of trust within a trustless system may be difficult to grasp if you have little technical knowledge of cryptography or have not spent sufficient time establishing and dealing with individuals and businesses in countries other than your own (which, unsurprisingly, requires a very WoT-like approach to figuring out whether a business and/or operator is legitimate and a known entity). I would suggest familiarising yourself with the former rather than the latter, and an excellent start is Practical Cryptography by Niels Ferguson and Bruce Schneier (ISBN: 978-0-471-22357-3).

Petamine, asicminer, 100th mine, and most people who bought bfl hardware, AM hardware, knc hardware, bitmain hardware, a1 clones, avalon hardware, bitfury hardware.



Yes trust is needed. The whole internet is a web of trust.

I'd love to know who in the bitcoin securities world has more trust than this team and Friedcat.

Jimmy, my boy, you clearly didn't read what I stated. I said you should "list 3 mining operations that were Bitcoin profitable. To simplify, you can just list the asset, what the IPO share price was, and what BTC dividends to date would have been for 1 BTC invested."

Buying mining hardware is NOT investing in an asset. Additionally, ASICminer is NOT a mining operation alone and is thus excluded from this list.

I look forward to your  report on what Petamine and 100th have paid in dividends to date for an initial 1 BTC investment in each.


Friedcat != this team, conflating the two is disingenuous.

I think you can do the research.

It's quite obvious that mining was profitable for the majority who partook in it. And most people pay ~$0.15/kwh compared to this offering at $0.025.


Yes but this team has been and will be working directly with AM. To say they are not trustworthy is to say FC is not trustworthy. They are also partners with 3m.

Heres some more web of trust: http://www.allied-control.com/about-us/partners

Interesting  :)

You argued that mining assets have been profitable, so the onus is on you to prove that. Again, the issue is not whether mining itself has been profitable, it is whether a mining asset has been profitable in a Bitcoin sense.


friedcat has not posted a GPG clearsigned message in this thread confirming his involvement, so that argument is fallacious. Additionally, "working directly with" a known entity is a nonsensical argument. Danny Brewster was "working directly with" Andreas Antonopoulos, that didn't make Danny trustworthy at all. If you are going to argue something you really should consider using fact instead of allusion, guesswork, and implication.

Honestly, Jimmy, your attempts at salvaging this conversation are just making more and more clear how little you understand about management, business, Bitcoin, and/or trustless systems. That is not an ad hominem attack, it is a statement of fact. I do not, unfortunately, have the time to continue a discussion with someone who not only lacks the grounding for it, but lacks the self-awareness and intelligence to realise such.

No it's on you to do the most basic research about mining. You never said a mining asset you said operation. Although both have been profitable in btc.



Ah I see your from the cult of bitcoin-assets correct?

Why would FC randomly start using those useless digital signatures?


Not even close. Andreas has no trust other than being a vocal advocate of bitcoin.

AM, 3m and allied control are real businesses ran by real people. Please let me know of someone in the bitcoin world with a better reputation than those 3.


Your inability to do the most basic research on bitcoin mining before adding your opinion is making is clear how full of shit you are.

And gpg/wot is a joke of a system which is perpetuated by scammers.

It's also a bit ironic someone with so many customer complaints is giving advice to a company which has received zero.

https://www.havelockinvestments.com/fund.php?symbol=PETA

(Initial) Public Offerings 2013-12-09 ฿0.05 Price/Unit
Current Value - ฿0.0690 Price/Unit
Sum of dividends -  ฿0.01262327 so far

I would say it has been profitable so far, isn't it?
In addition, I would say B.MINE, B.SHELL and KCIM are also being profitable

Thank you for your support and feedback.


ASICs have been tested at various efficiencies including ~0.6W/G. Better cooling also changes power consumption (some chips 33% less at 65C vs. 85C).

I would like to reiterate that the center point of the business plan is not to buy into chips and hardware designs too early. The money that hat buys 1GH today might buy 2GH in a few weeks. It also allows more time to develop and produce mature boards. One of our engineers will participate in the open source board design too. Alternatively, we may use a board design by somebody else if it proves to be more efficient.
At the long term, it may make sense to use totally different hardware or currencies altogether. DataTank Mining is not just about the first deployment, all that should count for investors is capacity and performance, not brand or type of chip.


We cannot release units of capacity for less than it costs to build, there is no profit in the build cost and we are passing through real expenses. In fact, we can build systems cheaper if we run them by ourselves, we don't require bells and whistles on our own systems, or glossy paint.

We earn by deploying 20% of identical capacity along public unit holders, and hence we will make sure that whatever we deploy is most profitable - our own income depends on it.


Our own team will build and operate the DataTank systems. We are also looking for external partners for later phases, depending how the market develops.

We are also in contact with some of the more successful mines to explore synergies for the future. A reliable operation needs reliable people and we are truly open when it comes to partnerships.

Quick off topic note here, but I figured I should address it:
KCIM has not been profitable, that's why we're closing. We don't have the resources to continually expand to meet our minimum hashing requirements.

As for B.MINE / B.SELL, those are derivatives and not tied to any actual hardware.

OK, I've only put those whose yield is higher than 100% according to Havelock, so I don't really understand what yield means.

Thanks for clarifying

We are approve of this message.

We have been in close partnership with allied-control from the last year.

Are you selling these containers?

Could I get one delivered to Europe for example?

Given that the container, immersion cooling, etc. are all based on existing technology within allied-control, and that two sites with low electricity costs and no legal problems have already been identified, why would it take so long (3-6m) to deploy containers?  Surely the deployment time can be shortened and have less variance?

DataTank Mining is NOT allied control, right?  Or is it the same?

Based on the forecast in pg 15 of the prospectus, deployment in 3 months would mean that DTMA will not reach ROI.  6m would be worse of course.  Has anyone done figures that are more promising?

Along that reasoning, a deployment in 3-6 months had better not use AM BE200 chips else it will not ROI.  Hopefully there will be a better chip by then.  Spongebobtech?  AM BE300 (4th gen)?

When a better chip becomes available after DTMA starts operations, what is the procedure for swapping to the new chip and how would it be funded?

How would DataTank Mining's interests be aligned with shareholders'?  As far as I can tell, once the container has been sold, DTM just makes a tiny cut of electricity bills, so your only incentive is to keep the container operating?

Sweet!  Can't wait for the next level... :)

Guise!  
I just made a INVENTION!
It totally patentid copywrited and tratemarked, so DO NOT STEAL!!1!

http://s15.postimg.org/6smyhj79n/steam.jpg
*U just wish U could brain like me 8)

Where is the "free trade zone with favorable climate and no import or export
restrictions" referred to in the prospectus?

1. so from the Prospectus you mention "minimized manufacturing time and prefabricated DataTank mining systems... deployment can be carried out in hours, instead of ays or weeks." But the mining won't start for 3-6 months? As far as chips go, have you already received the chips from AM (24 PH worth) and what was the power consumption per Gh
(you mentioned some could consume 33% less power than stated by manufacturers)?  In other words, have you already bought the chips while the BTC value is relatively high?

2. In the Prospectus theres no mention of bitcoin price going down between IPO and deployment. IF this happens, will each unit represent less kW? Will the 20% extra hash be deployed to help with ROI if the BTC value does go down? Will the fee's be decreased?

3. How will we individually as unit holders decide to reinvest (percentage) vs. no reinvestment? is this a shareholders vote with a majority needed to decide the reinvestment or will the DataTank give us to buy additional "units" with the mining dividend?

4. With scrypt mining, will you establish a different type of shares? When would you offer this, if it becomes a separate unit? or will scrypt mining capacity be included in the DTMA/DTMB?

5. Will ROI be measured in fiat or BTC ?

I like the idea of this project, but Petamine looked good too until there were delays.. and thats key point you've made in the prospectus. If you could please answer these questions that would be great.

Chips will be purchased when capacity is ready and the IPO is deemed successful. This means at significant lower prices with more efficient boards and chips. But of course we have current AM BE200 and other chips available for testing.


Infrastructure and hardware is purchased in fiat money. To minimize risks, the funds will be managed well and safety buffers have been built into pricing.

For infrastructure development, the most sensible approach is to immediately exchange BTC for USD, as as this investment needs to be made first and prices are relative fixed.

For managing BTC/USD for actual hardware, a sensible approach will be followed to bridge the short time between IPO and hardware acquisition.


As 100% of the income is paid out, it will be an individual decision if you reinvest at a later point when the market changes. DataTank Mining will NOT keep income as reserve for re-investment. 100% is paid out.


DTMA and DTMB holders can deploy new boards by either directly purchasing hardware from DataTank Mining (at cost) or third parties and mailing hardware in. New funds may only make sense if the hardware development is not yet completed or a certain scale needs to be reached to be economic. However, pre-orders in form of commitment (no-down payment) may be a more sensible option, assuming that DataTank mining is an attractive client to chip manufactures due to the scale involved. This will be a community approach.


It will be measured in the currency that is being mined. Initially BTC in the case of DTMA. DTMB will be up to the individual miners using the capacity.

Short answer:

The goal is to deploy in the fastest time possible, but hardware and infrastructure deployments on a megawatt scale take time. It also has to be done internationally and safe without risks. Furthermore, it is not uncommon that manufacturers of electronic or infrastructure components take up to 12-16 weeks to deliver, or even longer on such a scale.

We have good people involved and hands-on experience building some of the largest and most efficient mines ourselves and will do so again. We also have our own production facility literally in-house, within our very own rooms.

Long answer:

In the case of the ASIC chips the delivery time is a price issue, in the case of other important components it's a quantity and industry issue. Example, a few hundred or a few thousand buck regulators can be purchased  online, but for 100k+ back regulators Texas Instrument or any other company will take several months or do partial deliveries, even in China.

Insufficient time also leads to inefficient and unproven board designs. Board designers get it wrong all the time, not because they are bad engineers but because everyone wants the boards out the door ASAP. Ultimately this leads to higher cost, lost money and lost time.

We solve this problem by putting capacity in place first and foremost, and committing to hardware at the right price with the right performance in time for deployment.

Most mining businesses in the past focused on investing in mining hardware first, hosting and infrastructure cost afterwards was often accepted as collateral damage. At today's scale and economics (hosting and infrastructure cost exceeding HW cost), the focus needs to shift or ROI will be significantly affected. In addition to the arms race for the chips there is now an arms race for capacity as well.


That is absolutely correct. The solution is to put capacity in place first and then buy hardware when it is guaranteed to be efficient and can be brought online in the shortest possible time.

The reference data in the prospectus is based on today's known facts and prices including safety margin. It can be assumed that future hardware prices will be lower, but the business plan cannot be based on assumptions alone, hence today's prices/economics are used to represent the business model.

This is indeed a departure from the usual "buy hardware first and get rich quick" schemes which often overlook important issue such as hosting, logistics, manufacturing etc -  we firmly believe the long term approach in mining requires such a radical change in strategy.

We plan to be very profitable from the outset, but it's the next generation where it will make the biggest difference. Mining is to stay and our solution can be used again and again.

Secondary deployments literally take hours, with the complete structure being reused. This is true for DTMA investors (capacity + hardware) and DTMB investors who only invest in capacity.


When hardware in DTMA capacity (hardware + capacity) stops being efficient, it can be switched off and DTMA effectively becomes the same as DMTB (capacity only).

DataTank Mining is working with hardware and ASIC manufactures (SHA and Scyrpt) to make immersion blade hardware available. DTMA or DTMB holders can chose to purchase (at internal cost) new hardware at any time, either by reinvesting paid dividends or raising new funds. Alternatively unit holders can send in their own hardware and get it deployed instead.


The cost of operation and building of DataTank infrastructure is passed through, there is no profit involved.

DataTank Mining's profit comes from deploying 20% of _identical_ hardware alongside the public capacity. Hence, we only earn money if we are successful. The 20% fee on operating cost is used to fund the day-to-day operation, including on-site staff providing various services such as ongoing hardware re-deployments, maintenance and security.

My favorite part of the video: "Should a board ever have to leave the bath, it comes out dry".
Like holy shit, I would certainly hope so!   ::) 

It dries in matter of seconds and is clean, so yes it comes out dry.

Compared to oil immersion cooling were your hardware would come out oily and has to be cleaned with detergent. Not to mentioned the protective gear you would have to use.

my bad.  I thought that it was an extremely redundant statement because wet electronics = always bad.  i didn't understand the tech good enough to realize its actually a break-through advancement.. i had assumed there was some kind of barrier between the electronics and the water

^It's not water, it's 3M Novec magic juice.  Doesn't conduct electricity or mess with the electronic goodies.  Pricey stuff last time I checked, more than $300/gal in retail quantities.

No problem.
The Immersion Blades are immersed in a dielectric fluid, so no damage to electronics.

hehe, that's one way to call it I guess. Its actually sold by weight, but yes if you buy a small quantity, I am sure its pricey.
I Like your drawing btw, ;)

@DTM

Do you forsee potential issues with getting chips before three months?

BTW, cool name!

you guys fo shiz gonna need all the help you can git with this monster
give me a shout, i'll recruit some extra guys for the ole 'fiat bizniz but let's grab their btc cos btc' shilleroonio

i've opted not to go down the immersion cooled colo route. i like my miners at home and i can cool 'em just fine.
best luck with it though - it's a good thing for those who desire it.

FWIW, chips shouldn't be the problem. Friedcat can deliver them the same month you buy them. The bigger issue would be PCB fabrication to spec for the tank system. That is where hiccups can arise if they don't meet the specifications that DataTank wants out of their boards.

But they should already have that set up as far as i can tell from the video of the AM chips that they showed running. So that shouldn't be a problem right?

DTM/Allied has its own SMD line and have worked with Friedcat on board manufacturing before (ever wondered why the newer blades had the edge connectors on the PCB?)
Same will be done for future chips.

Thanks.  For clarity, does the IPO also fund your 20% deployment of identical hardware, or will you be coughing up 2 BTC of your own for every 10BTC invested?

DTMB holders can essentially convert to DTMA-equivalent with the at-cost purchase of mining hardware right?  ie, for 0.0165 BTC / unit at current prices. 

How will you handle DTMB holders who want different things?  Eg, some might want you to help negotiate to franchise their capacity.  Others might want to handle their own franchising, while yet others may want to self-mine.  Seems like it would be messy to communicate with individual shareholders going in different directions.  If the shares are not fungible, there will be more complications when trading shares and issuing dividends on havelock.

Looks very promising and sensible to me.

Looking forward to the IPO!

can we buy entire containers ready to plug in? :)

^Yes, but you need one of those 220 dryer outlets.  Got one?

Maybe I can take the diesel V8 and convert it to run on vegetable oil and then drive around the fast food joints and get the free grease all day for fuel..  MMmm..  How many alternators do I need to rig up for that?

+1 on that. how we will get in touch with you guys ? have you already a website designed to handle change requests for B stakeholders ? And for the A Team, can people choose where they are mining ? or are you creating a pool ?

electricity cost / mining revenue < 10% nowadays, why a person will rent the capacity by sacrificing 20% revenues?

I am trying to understand this.

Do you mean 'income' when you are saying revenue?

You are saying that net income after paying electricity cost is only 10%?
Wouldn't this depend on miner and electricity cost?

Electricity cost TerraMiner IV = $5.28 per day at 2.2kW at $0.10/kWh
Mining Income TerraMiner IV = $35.66 with 1.6TH

And where does the "sacrificing 20% revenues" come from?

yes


$5.28/$35.66 = 14.8% < 20%, sacrifice 5% still.

This is looking good, can't wait to get my hands on some DTMB shares :D

Does the IPO start at midnight in Havelock's timezone on the 24th? Can't find any mention of time.

That is correct. The 20% also function as safety buffer in case of price fluctuations.

DataTank: Sources and produces ASIC boards in-house without third parties involved for significantly more than 20% cheaper (relies on experience producing past ASIC boards and direct connections to designers/manufacturers). There are no profits involved through the complete chain and we are on-site for manufacturing, and on-site for deployment. Case in point. We produce hardware at today's prices for <$438/T (<$0.44/G). This compares to the price of other hardware available.

Traditional: Buys ASICs, components and PCB from third parties. Relies on manufacturing for third party. Needs to add mechanical components such as case, fans, heatsinks, screws, nuts, switches, cables.  Needs box and packaging. Needs logistics. Needs profit margin to make money. Needs to sell with customer support, billing, needs to cover NRE expenses. This total cost will be significantly more than 20% margin. In addition, when the end-user receives hardware, the costs continue. Power supplies, installation, deployment, overpriced data center rent, etc
These are some of the problems that DTM solves.

I am still not following. Nobody is charging 20% from your mining income and nobody is charging 5%.

Instead of the TerraMiner IV example (around 1.6TH) I should have used the real DTM numbers:

electricity cost for 1.66TH at DTM = $0.6/day ($18/month)
20% fee on the electricity cost for operating the cluster = $0.12/day


I certainly hope that 30 * $0.12 = $3.6/month is far away from 20% mining income on 1.66TH for a while.

If it isn't then even DTM's efficient system won't help (and certainly not paying MUCH MORE for a data center or home mining where you'd have to fork out the annual mining income or more just for the shipping cost).

DataTank Mining will have a control panel for unit holders to control their capacity.

In addition, there is a NOC (network operations center) staffed with engineers that will respond 24/7 to requests in addition to securing networks. This is part of the security protocol.

There are currently discussions with Havelocks and considerations for other (also open) exchanges to integrate an interface (API).

The easiest and solution already in place is moving units between the unit holder and DTM's account manually, but this introduces a lag due to manual interaction. We are confident that this can be automated, despite the the new twists that the systems introduces.


A pool and a digital market place is under consideration, with third parties that are established with a proven track record in this space.


Yes. But DTM can only offer additional benefits (digital market place, ie. additional income via selling hash rate to cloud miners or cloud operators) when miners are pointing at DTM systems, not at external pools.


That is correct, via control panel or manual interaction.


This is a matter of proper planning and implementation. The mining market will definitely not stand still, so this will result in a ongoing effort.  Control panel, on-site technician and network operators will be prepared to handle requests and keep track.

As I can read, Your container with power supplies without chips costs for You 0.38 $/GH (or 0.633 $/W with Your assumption of 2 PH per 1.2 MW container). In Your reports were instalations with as low as 167$/kW of capital costs.

1 share of DTMB is going to IPO with a price of $7.25 per 10w (0.0115 btc per share, page 9 in Prospectus) or $0.725 $/W (15% more than costs).

Worse thing with DTMA: You claimed "<$820/T (<$0.82/G) total cluster with deployed DataTank system on-site" of costs or 1.37 $/W. At the same time You are going to sell 1 DTMA share per 0.0280 btc or 1.76 $/W (29% more than costs)

You try to earn 15-29% on IPO, with a history of making some immersion cooling systems - it is fair. All clients funds are in Your hands, so You will be very liquid.

You are trying to sell 1 GH of mining power in low cost of electricity location in the end of 2014 with price of 0.62 $/GH (DTMA case, pure mining boards without container and without power supplies) when I can buy Antminer S2 or Rockminer hashing now for 1,5 $/GH. The difference will be mined in 2 months.

In DTMB case You are going to sell 1 kW in container per $725 in the end of 2014 and are going to rent them (if fully deployed) for $60 per month (with $18 of operational cost). It's 17 months to get invested money back. It is for long term investors considering the average period of 4-5 months in case of buying miners (which usually could work a year).

PLEASE, make things clear: (1) if we give You say until June, 30 the sum of $870 000 as You ask for 1 container, when it will be ready and (2) when ASICminer chips could start mining in container if we give You
$2 112 000 until June, 30 as You ask for one container fully deployed with chips?

PS. The faster You earn people 50% - the quicker they will give You 10x more money.

It's $0.46/W.


They are asking $6.80 per share not $7.25.. And it's 7% markup not 400%.



It costs them $1.36/W and they are asking $1.65/W.


They are not asking for nearly that much and they have successfully built immersion datacenters before.


They are not selling individual GH nor for that price. Each share represents about 17GH and costs about $17. Also there is no such thing as an antminer A2 and there is also no miner for less than $1/gh (or not that I am aware of). Also I am 99% sure you do not pay $0.025/kwh so there's that.


Look up allied control. Plenty of history.

Electricity cost in WA state for Datacenter use goes for 3-4ct/kWh, so I am quite confident that described rates can be achieved.

In any case, it is much lower than traditional hosting and is also more power efficient (cooling).

Thanks for your answers !!
I'm satisfied.

Edited my post, please edit Yours if quoted.

This is in the prospectus. It takes between 3-6 months for full deployment. The longer it takes the cheaper hardware per GH gets (OR you receive more efficient hardware, perhaps from spondoolies, or another GEN....)

As hardware will only be bought (produced) once the date for DataTank deployment should be fairly firm, the cost and efficiency can only be determined then.

However, for a best prediction of cost, DTMA holders are asked to pay a fee per kW now, which shouldn´t change as much as the price per GH over time, when more power efficient equipment becomes available.


As i hopefully described comprehensively, it is less relevant when the actual Tank will be ready, as the hardware prices at the time of deployment will be used for calculating the cost per GH.

I thought we were paying $/W and not $/GH? Can anyone confirm?

Previous posters are correct.

DataTank Mining is not selling or purchasing any hardware (as in hashrate, ASICS, etc) today, and prices are merely a representation/reference to make a business case. It is at the core of the business strategy _not_ to engage in such practice and bet on hardware. Hardware will be purchased in time for deployment, no earlier than that, at the price and performance that is best suitable to serve its purpose.

Hardware acquisition needs to happen at a certain point in time, no doubt. Because numbers cannot be pulled out of thin air, we are using today's known data for reference calculations. However, it can be safely assumed that the hardware will be cheaper (more competition) and that the same money can buy more hashrate (advancement of technology) in the future. Both cases are accounted for in the insurance sections: unit holders receive excess funds paid back via dividends or receive more capacity/higher hashrate in form of extra units if we are over-funded.

The reason why today's known hardware cost (large downwards trend) and production cost (very little change) are used, instead of guesstimating or making up numbers is because it's bad business practice to base a business plan on speculation.

Keep in mind that we run our own production line. We have produced ASIC hardware for third parties before, not only for immersion but also for heat sink users worldwide. Prior to that, early 2012, we have built and produced Spartan 6 based FPGA boards and there are surely a few forum users who could attest to that (info via PM if needed).

-- // --

Having said that, there will be a progress update within today, of which one particular point addresses exactly the risk of hardware acquisition. We have some good news in this regard but discussions are still ongoing.

At least interesting and legit.
 

Thank you for clarifying, looking forward to the news :)

I have a question:

Assuming one would have limited funds available (duh) at this moment in time, would it be possible to buy B shares (ie without asics) now and pay for the hardware in around 2 months?

This should allow for deployment of hardware within the same timeframe as "normal" A shares.

Would that be a possibility?

Progress Update 23 Jun 2014:

Here is a first progress update since the original announcement of DataTank Mining last week.

• The public sale of capacity units on HavelockInvestments.com has been pushed back (preliminary date Monday July 7, after the U.S. Marshall's  Service Bitcoin auction and the July 4 weekend). In the meantime, early investors may contact us by email.
   
• We are in discussion with a manufacturer to provide ASIC hardware in return for DataTank capacity. This is an unexpected turn of events, but it may prove to be a very important development with the potential to (a) reduce the need to finance chips and outlay required at the time of deployment, and (b) to speed up the production pipeline earlier than expected. We have agreed not to post details before a consensus is reached. How this affects existing and future DTMA holders will remain to be seen when we have results.
   
• We have also received inquires for exclusive partnerships from two different known parties in the mining space, and at least one of them is seriously considered at the moment.
   
Several questions have been raised in regards to the choice of locations. We would like to comment as follows:

• DataTank Mining is not fixed on a specific location (such as the USA) and can deploy in parallel if required, even internationally (minimum requirement for DataTank Mining systems is power feed and internet, deployment of containers can be indoors or outdoors).

• Next to pure electricity prices, consideration is given to other factors such as long term (and political) stability, unrestricted trade and access for staff and also local resources and talented personnel available.

• Average electricity price at DTM's first choice locations is below $0.03, while there are several more locations (including China) available with $0.03 to $0.05/kWh. We would like to hear opinions via email, especially in regards to US or China as locations of choice.

• If you are in Hong Kong for the Inside Bitcoins event, please come say hi on Wednesday June 25 11:00 to 11:45 am, when one of our very own is hosting a panel with mining professionals.
   
Crypto Currency Mining: A 360 Industry Perspective
http://www.mediabistro.com/insidebitcoins/hong-kong/agenda.asp
   
Panelists:

Guy Corem CEO, Spondoolies-Tech (SP10/SP30)
Rock Xie CEO, ROCKMINER/ASICMiner board member
Li Yingfei, Business Development Director, Bitmain Tech (AntMiner)
Mao Shi Xing COO, Yibite & Co-Founder, Discus Fish, f2pool
Marco Streng CEO and Co-Founder, Genesis-Mining.com
Alex Kampl VP of Engineering, Allied Control/DataTank (Moderator)

We also would like to remind everyone that DataTank Mining is NOT offering shares in the company, but units of capacity ("units") of DataTank container mining systems (ie. one unit represents 0.01 Kilowatt (kW). 100 units are one 1 kW block).

Here is a sneak peek at the future of mining (preview video):
http://www.vimeo.com/datatank/mining

Does this mean a move from ASICMiner chips to another manufacturer's?

That is what it sounds like.  Not good for AM holders

lol you fudmaster.

It could be: AM getting franchised mining capacity, AM producing boards, someone else producing boards with AM chips. This isn't clear at all.

could be AM franchising BOARD PRODUCER franchising DATATANK? ;D
as long as there is BE200 labelled on the thousands chips i'm good.

Last time I checked AM was a "manufacturer that provides ASIC hardware".

We're a bit worried about the "unexpected turn of events" line. AM has already been a long-term established partner of Allied Control and the initially planned partner/supplier for this operation. Now this sounds like the supplied may have changed.
Do you know more in order to wipe away those doubts?

What does this mean? Exclusive partnership for all mining, I.e. dtma?

It might mean diversifying their supply lanes so that their chips come from multiple manufacturers instead of just one of them.
The mining sphere does change now and then

DataTankMining said that he can build hardware today (most likely assuming AM BE200 chips) at < $0.44/G.  I guess that means that at their quantity levels the chips themselves should be significantly less than $0.40/G today.

I've opined this before: I'm doubtful that BE200 will be the chip deployed for DTMA.  Do you really think it will be the best chip on the market in quantity in 2-5 months time? I speculate that it was likely to be some other manufacturer, or perhaps BE300 if that were available.

But the exclusive partnerships and other tie-ups mix this up a bit.

So, the public IPO of both DTMA and DTMB units have been pushed back, right?  Or does "capacity units" refer to DTMB only?

Apologies for the confusion. AM is not at risk being the Bitcoin chip supplier of choice for this operation. Keep in mind there will also be a shift to Scrypt mining in the future, at least partially.

For DTM it's most important to deploy capacity in order to fully utilize the potential of fast deployment and efficient operations. Having manufacturer support is an important element and it is in the interest of ALL chip manufacturers for their customers (miners) to be successful and "come back for more".



Both is correct. The push back is mainly to avoid the risk of swings in the BTC price due to the U.S. Marashall's Service auction (unusually unstable BTC price during funding rounds may cause additional noise), and to allow sufficient time to consider the points made in yesterdays update. Less investment required for ASIC hardware is good news for stake holders and means lower funding requirement for DTMA.

The confusion should be over when concrete details can be posted, but definitely before any public offering.

Why is everyone so focused on AM on this thread?

While AM is a viable solution today, the tanks will be ready in 3-6 months.

DataTank will then decide which chip is most efficient to deploy within that timeframe, and it might be a completely different one, as nobody can tell what chip will be best by then.

Many AM shareholders are very interested in immersion cooled mining solutions. AM has already partnered up with Allied Control before and was already mining with immersion cooled systems. Also, when it became public that this project is supposed to use AM (gen 3) chips, it inherently became an important customer for AM (and thus, it's shareholders). If there indeed was a sudden shift from AM to another supplier, this would mean bad news for AM and its shareholders.

Do you see the BE200 chips being viable in 6 months for this?  I would think that by then they will be a bit dated since they have a pretty high watt to GH ratio.  I think the more chip options DTM has the better for them.

They're very cheap and available in a very large quantity. DTM will most likely have access to VERY cheap energy. That may make AM chips the better choice in this case. Also, AM is reliable and has worked with AC in the past.

I think we shouldn´t speculate about this, as it lies to far in the future.

Maybe AM will come up with their next chip design, available in 4 months, then we have a whole new set of parameters.
There are so many factors in this decision that we simply can´t predict which chip DataTank will use by the time of full deployment.


@DataTank
Looking forward to your announcement.

Please remember to also post updates to havelock investestments, as not everybody is watching this thread.

I second this.

Can you clarify the exact public sale date and time please? Is it 07/07/2014 at _EXACTLY_ 00:00 UTC/EST/PST?

One of the most serious assets that I have seen recently.
Translated into Chinese and posted:
【Havelock】一站式液冷矿场DataTank Mining初定于7月7日进行IPO (http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=19419&fromuid=4242)

This is from another thread (do not want to derail their thread). But they couldn't be more wrong I am afraid.


Ok, lets see.

DataTank = Cheaper. We can build a few for you if you want, and I can almost guarantee you will love them and thank us later ;)

- Price of DataTank =~$0.50/W = $500/kW.
- Ready to mine machine, including power, network, servers, liquid, everything required (brand name parts).
- Just add internet and a power feed from the grid
- Or even easier, let DataTank Mining run it for you and we charge $18/kW per month (+ a modest 20% managing fee)
- Reduces power consumption (lower leak currents, no fans, etc)
- Lower price is the whole point, why would we build it otherwise?

ASIC hardware side:

- ASIC hardware is now reduced to boards and ASIC chips.
- No more power supplies (ie. SP30 = 2x 1200W, $200-$300? so $100 to $150 per kW)
- No more enclosure ($50 less??)
- No more heat sinks + fans $25 less?)
- No more assembly etc (maybe $50 less?)
- No more heavy duty FedEx shipping charge (maybe $150 less? so $75/kW)
- $300 to $350 saved on each SP30 so far (and days or weeks assembly and purchasing time?)

For heat sink mining you still need a building, some CRACs or fans, and of course power:

- $100/kW cheap hosting (or more) = $600/half year
- Or build your own mine = ???? few hundred dollars per kW China style to few thousand dollars per kW Washington State style

- 19-Inch racks ($300-$500 in China?)
- Switchgear, power distribution, cables and power strips? (DataTank has fully automated remote PDU)
- How much space for 576 of your SP30? That's what fits in a DataTank.
- 144 racks at 10kW/rack, or 72 racks at 20kW per rack (and 2,500 CFM / 1,180 L/s of air flow per rack)
  (20 to 30 racks in shipping container, so a couple of shipping containers on the way from China just for your empty server racks, another $100 to $200 just for shipping)
- Roof, walls, building etc ?
- Fans, fans, fans. More fans. Even in Iceland. And dust.
- And so on.

There is no doubt in my mind. Heatsink miners will soon stay behind. And go deaf too ;)

Thanks for posting this!

As usual antirack is omitting the cost of:

- water tower
- water pump
- water circulation pipes
- fans in the water tower

His whole marketing campaign is aimed at illiterate/innumerate people, those who can be convinced that the law of thermodynamics can be somehow suspended after paying for an expensive patented 3M cooling fluid. The reality is obvious: you can't omit the heatsink, but it can be either local or remote.

Interestingly, they actually built some of their water-cooled setups so they must have the exact costs available, they just don't disclose them, hoping to snare some semi-literate or semi-numerate investors who'll buy into the "no more heatsinks nor fans" spiel.

well, the ''magic'' of two phase immersion cooling is that the change from liquid to vapor state consumes a lot of heat energy! That's thermodynamics, too.
So you need a lot less cooling equipment than with air cooling or normal water cooling.

Correct. It's not "heatsink vs no heatsink". A fair comparison is 5000 heatsinks/fans vs 1 giant heatsink/pump/fans. The end result is quite clear from the HK DC with a PUE of less than 1.01.

If 2112 did a bit of reading instead of calling everyone illiterate he would know that you only need a very small amount of novec fluid per KW. In fact as little as $2.5 per KW (200ml @ 4kw) or $2,500 per MW.

DataTank isn´t ommitting anything, as the neccesarry cooling equipment is included in the 0.6-0.7$/W cost of the whole setup.

Before calling anyone illiterrate, maybe first open your own eyes and try to understand the technologies at work here, afterwards everyone will be glad to answer any remaining questions.

Oviously the 3M Novec is only used for heat transfer, and doesn´t magically make it dissipate into "nothing", chillers on the top of the Containers are used to get rid of the heat.


However, due to the quicker heat transport away from the chips, you basically only need a giant fan on the chiller to get rid of excess heat, leading to a very good PUE.

You do realize that a facility already exists where asicminer has deployed 0.5MW of equipment?
Please, 2112, go ahead and tell them that their existing facility isn´t supposed to work and ask them, where they are hiding their giant chilling towers and water pumps  ::)

As stated before a huge amount of heat energy gets absorbed for changing phase (liquid to vapor/gas) of 3M Novec. That's the advantage to one phase watercooling.



http://www.splung.com/heat/images/latentheat/phasechange.png

Science, bitch!  :P

This phase-change occurs only in the "primary loop". I use "loop" somewhat inaccurately because it is a natural convective boiler-condenser setup, not a pumped loop. The Novec is condensed using a normal single-phase water loop with normal radiator and fans at the cold end. They work in series.

Novec immersion cooling is simply a replacement for lack of proper engineering of the mining boards. Bitcoin mining for sure doesn't require large flat boards. All the heat-dissipating components can be directly mounted onto the secondary cooling loop using larger quantity of smaller PCBs. This whole Novec tank is just a distraction here.
The phase change occurs only in Novec. Then in series with this works a regular single-phase water cooling system.

I'm getting flack for calling people semi-literate or semi-numerate. So what is the better word to describe a person like Lincoln6Echo who seems to have completely missed that the Allied Control cooling system is a series connection of two cooling systems? A mark? A dupe?

I blame this partially on him and partially on deceptive marketing from antirack, and partially on Allied Control being unclear in their marketing materials.

Edit: OK, lets use the word "confused". So we have confused prospecive investors confused be the confusing marketing materials from Allied Control with the confusion increased by antirack (personally) by omitting important necessary items in the cost projection.
 

OK, by why a sales represenative of Allied Controls can't state this clearly? Why suddenly independent people jump to the defense of Allied Control?

Again, my argument is not only about cost of the Novec fluid. It is about a sum of costs of Novec and the whole secondary loop.

Care to quote actual numbers for the cost of the secondary loop? Don't tell me "is included". Unbundle all the costs the same as antirack did unbundling costs of enclosures and small fans in the air-cooled system.

Immersion cooling is still in experimental phase, b/c it is not yet clear what secondary benefits can arise. That's the gamble investors take.

Secondary benefits include:
- rapid deployment
- less/no impact from ambient temperatures
- operating temperature may be adjustable
- higher clock rates may be possible (e.g. 10% increase reduces the capital cost requirements for hashing power, adding to the ROI of the DataTank)

However, to be fair investors need to determine for themselves whether spending bitcoins is worth the gamble. BTC strikes me as undervalued right now, which may confirm what Spondoolies is asserting. But then, by the same logic any investment into bitcoin mining is questionable at the moment, if you don't have access to equipment at cost.

Actually antirack was intentionally omitting the costs and dimensions of the secondary loop. Allied Control was helping him in their production and editing of the marketing video they did for the FPGA farm. For the Novec tanks they used wide-angle lens whereas for the water tower they used a brief telephoto shot.

I admit that I don't fully understand what is the relation between antirack and Allied Control. I'm primarily against antirack's deceptive marketing. To me he seems like small-time huckster who sold a quantity of small laboratory-size open-loop systems. By "open loop" I mean takes cold water from the faucet and dumps hot water into the drain. Those weren't the industrial-size facilities with different economies of scale. One can still operate "open loop" at the industrial scale if the Bitcoin mine is located near the waterfall or another source of a free cold water.

As to "where are they hiding chilling tower and water pumps"? In the plain sight, on the front of their prospectus. I see a three level pyramid. The fully enclosed "payload" containers are on the bottom. On top of it is a layer of semi-open containers, probably pumps and fans. Then on the top there is a third layer of open frame containers, probably the tops of the water towers. So you have two "overhead" containers per one "payload" container.

Do you have any better, more accurate data, to actually compare the three systems: (0) direct air cooling, (1) single-loop water cooling (2) two-loop series Novec+water cooling?

I mostly agree with you. I just wanted to emphasize that you didn't make it clear that you comparing direct air cooled system with two-stage Novec+water cooling system. Maybe some benefits of liquid cooling can be realized in a single-stage water cooling system?

Antirack,

I suppose Spondolies looked at Your previous report where You described 176 $/kW capital costs for datacenter and found it the best solution for one who wants to operate DC . They operate their DC just to promote 1 gen loudy miners, they have 18 cents/kw bills (I guess, from wiki on Israel tariff). All You can take from them - made them ready to produce miners ready for Your IC container at a lower price + bulk shipping of such a stuff to Your cheap electricity location after permits of customers . I have tens of sp 10 ready to go for such a trip :)

Also You should post something at Coindesk. Guess that $8 mln of dollars for maidsafe network came from there

OT: Seeing the Translation of Friedcat is soo funny. "Grilled Cat" "Cats have been roasted" "Bear cat oil-cooked"

I do not understand why you believe that I am omitting or hiding anything. Or why you believe that Allied Control or DataTank Mining does.

These parts are included the price stated ($0.50/W), included in the efficiencies stated, etc.

The system works as described and the cost is as described, with all parts included. It's a turnkey solution.

That is the value proposition of the system. It costs less than other solutions. Why is this so difficult to understand? Why do you need to look for hidden costs where there are none?

The cost is included. For _everything_, including the Novec fluid, the secondary loop, and everything else stated on the site, in the prospectus, etc. it also includes the site preparation (ie. power feed in place, transformers, etc). DataTank Mining prospectus: "full infrastructure cost, including site prep". There is nothing hidden. Also as stated in the prospectus.

I can understand why this all might sound confusing if you are not involved in building such infrastructure or running a facility, after this is all industrial stuff not buying and connecting some ATX power supplies from Newegg.

But I am not sure why you would think I am hiding that "fact" - rest assured it's not my intention.

About the Novec, the work around today is to build dense hardware, and I believe we are just on the right track ("1,000kW of mining hardware in a volume smaller than the bed of a pickup truck"). 3M is not the only company selling Post-It's, why would they remain the only company selling fluids? At this moment 3M seems to be the best, for various reasons. DataTank works with any other fluid too, they don't mind which magic juice you put in them.

Back to the coolers you believe I am omitting:

You can see the "machines" right here, so there is no questions that they will are required.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w_oQ0dv9aHY/U6ykvpZsIjI/AAAAAAAAgyw/FGRDp2j3BOY/s400/40FT_Container_06_08.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hbT30G-Sp4o/U6yjivyZAuI/AAAAAAAAgyI/VbvnC05ffOM/s400/dc-module.jpg

If you read the paper "Bitcoin, 2-Phase Immersion Cooling and the Implications for HPC" that was also published in Electronics Cooling, you can basically find a user guide how to build your own system.

I write "the custom tank condensers use enhanced tubes borrowed from the refrigeration industry. Each is fed facility water directly from a four module dry tower sized for Hong Kong’s hot and humid weather (Table 3)." And there is data.

http://www.allied-control.com/publications/Full_Version_Bitcoin_2-Phase_Immersion_Cooling_and_the_Implications_for_HPC.pdf

Here are some other links to show how it works, and of course a radiator is required.

http://www.allied-control.com/blog/immersion-2-tech-details-cooling-hundreds-of-kilowatt-with-1500-watt

(you'll see right there in above's blog post that the closed loop water system is a vital part, and how to design it, and again pictures of dry coolers too)

http://www.allied-control.com/images/easyblog_images/42/immersion-2/b2ap3_thumbnail_Dry-Cooler.jpg

http://www.allied-control.com/images/easyblog_images/42/immersion-2/b2ap3_thumbnail_500kWDryCooler2.jpg

Excerpt:


If you build your system at a source near free cooling (ie. a cold river), you could replace the dry cooler with a simple "garden hose" that runs up and down a few stretches in the river. This again is mentioned in the prospectus:


If you replace your 'dry tower' with a wet tower, you could make it even more efficient, because now you have evaporation a second time, but now you are evaporating a lot of water (Facebook uses liters of water per day per kW!) and how cares at this point if you save (arbitrary, to make a point) 99.75 or 99.43% of energy? And wet towers are a mess, you have to clean them a lot and hence you'll need two (redundancy) or switch off your mine for a half day once a moth.

If you click on the TECH link on the top of http://www.datatank-mining.com you will end up at most of these pictures and documents I am stating here.

https://drive.google.com/a/allied-control.com/folderview?id=0ByWHHc0u_thNMWtQeDNiT2duU0E&usp=drivesdk#grid


Physics are physics.

I am not hiding anything.

Why would I want to mislead anyone about these facts and why you are so hostile ??? Have you been working on a business plan that was interrupted by DTM (ie. the idea about the large scale water cooling system/cold plate with the smaller PCBs)?

If so, keep physics in mind:

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=0t-HrUf1aHEC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=100,000+W/m2-K.&source=bl&ots=tCOzLR5cVJ&sig=v-nA8-lRSBwZ4ZOAqwi3rGVdhsE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Pf8hUe2iNfCiiAePlYH4AQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Translation: 2-phase is more efficient. 2-phase is passive (= zero energy spent). Water cooling is less efficient. You need to spend a lot of energy to make it happen. That's why 2-phase cooling is employed, not only in DataTanks. For decades. But open bath is new. And Bitcoin densities ;)

There is no reason for bashing each others solution, they all have their place and even air cooling won't go away anytime soon IMHO. Go ahead build yours, only after we all build our large scale implementations we can tell which one will actually do a better job.

Either way, since you replied to the post about the Spondoolies Tech SP30, I am saying they should dump it all in liquid immersion cooling tanks and use passive 2-phase immersion cooling, and you are saying they should build smaller PCBs and mount it all on a giant heat sink. Both obviously saves them a lot of money.

I'd like to request to take this to a separate thread so we don't spam the DataTank Mining thread with technicalities. There are threads about 2-phase immersion cooling.

Bah!  Now THIS is the future!

http://www.epcoutsourcing.com/images/cooling%20tower.jpg

The standard radiators on top of _each_ DataTank system are sized for up to 1.7MW with 50C water in the loop and air temps of hot and humid Hong Kong. If you run this in Iceland or even Washington State the capacity goes up significantly (lower air temps). That should last for a while.

;D

Belatedly, but you finally admitted that "heathinks and fans are required":
While you've made numerous posts that they aren't required, last just couple of hours ago.
I really have hard time to understand your motivation, why you've spend so much time on this board to confuse prospective buyers/investors with word games. Don't tell me you aren't confusing, the most recent example of a confused reader is Lincoln6Echo.

You keep giving intentionally slanted numbers. When making comparison with SP30 you've used only the volume of "payload" 2TEU cointainer, whereas your whole installation requires somewhere around 6TEU or 9TEU of space for operation and 4TEU to 6TEU for shipping/storage. Why aren't you making that clear?

I'll let other prospects to do a more detailed analysis of your numbers, I just wanted to point another obvious omission: power supplies. Bitcoin mine is not a datacenter or supercomputer. It does not require buying and immersion cooling large quantity of modular precision power supplies that output +12V,+5,+3.3,-5,-12V. It will work with non-precision regulated ones, e.g. DC rectifying welders (note for home experimenters: defeat the "arc start" circuitry in them). Using high power DC supplies will also allow you to directly tap the utility power at the kilovolt voltages and skip the costs and loses in the intermediate step-down transformers (which once again antirack omitted, conveniently for him).

The side benefit of researching cheap single-DC-voltage power supplies will be that the interested reader will see the proper power electrical engineering at the megawatt scale and see the properly engineered cooling and isolation systems using liquids (water, oil) and gases (air, SF₆).

I simply give up. You are not a friend of this technology and you believe I am misleading people. I accept your point of view of course.

Can you please confirm or deny that a business plan with a giant heat sink (and apparently the invention of a complete new power distribution system) has been interrupted? In other words, do you believe what you are saying because you are fascinated by technology, or is it because you are trying to create your own efficient and competing solution to what DataTank is? The latter would explain a lot.

DC Power:

I am all for new solutions that are cheaper (evidently by the use of immersion), but I need to build mines with existing technology. Highly efficient 12V power supplies at less than $0.10/W are part of this. DataTank also doesn't mind using 48V or even 480VDC. Anything fits in them. But currently not too economical, without reinventing the wheel, but trust me when I say there are tests being down and there is progress in this direction ;)  Will it be ready in a few months for deployment? Probably not... there are also some ASIC/board manufacturers looking into this direction and a whole industry is trying to create more efficient DC power systems.

Space requirement:

1 container can hold the equivalent of 576 SP30. It has the foot print of exactly 1 container. With everything. I do honestly not understand what you are trying to say and why you think it would require the spac3e of 6-9 container units etc.

2112, How much money do you think it would cost to build a cheap as possible air cooled 1MW DC? (including the cost of the warehouse, heatsinks, fans, AC, psus, basically everything but the asics themselves)

He is promoting a giant water cooling system I believe, not air cooling. But I am sure he is also knows how to build cheap large scale air cooled facilities and is teaching Dave Carlson of MegaBigPower fame as we speak (just kidding).

We will soon know his costs when he is finished building his first MW!

Using Hammer or Rockerbox chips I assume, and kilovolt voltage DC power supplies.

You are free to think about me what you like. I know who I am, and that I'm not affiliated with any pro-Bitcoin or anti-Bitcoin organization.

On the other hand from you I get a strong Amway/Quixtar vibe. Except that in your case you are a 3M-captive sales-person or sales-engineer.

Until you started posting in various threads "3M Novec will let you get rid of heathsinks, fans, water, cables, etc..." I thought that Novec is a solvent. I've seen Novec name multiple times on the empty solvent containers, next to trichloroethylene, tetrachloroethylene, isopropyl alcohol, etc. in a nearby trash storage area for a medical facility. There were all kinds of generic names there, but two proprietary brands caught my eye: 3M Novec and Solvay Galden.

Before writing this post I did both Google and local search on this forum for Galden. This mention is going to be the first.

I've met many honest consulting engineers and honest investment advisors. All of them make a strong ethical point for doing a proper competitive analysis of the field before they give an advice. How come you as a "immersion cooling specialist" never mentioned a leading competitor to 3M? Because you are strongly encumbered by your affiliation. And this is a serious red flag, when you never mention potential competitors or risks. What else are you hiding in your marketing materials?

There are multiple problems with your question. It is seriously slanted.

1) DC - I believe you meant datacenter. When I write DC it always means "Direct Current" and I always spell out  the whole word datacenter.

To repeat myself from just previous page: Bitcoin mine is neither a datacenter nor a supercomputer. It is a mass quantity of unusual chips with very rare property: they are all about gazing at their own navel and thumb twiddling, they do not communicate with each other and barely communicate with the external environment.

2) AC - I believe you meant air conditioning. When I write AC it always means "Alternating Current" and I would always spell that out.

Again I repeat myself: air conditioning is not required. Bitcoin mine is basically a giant distributed semiconductor resistor, unusual with the requirement that the voltage it dissipates has to be less than 1V with somewhat specific tolerances. For such a resistor air conditioning is not required, there are many other ways to evacuate the waste heat of computation/thumb twiddling.

So I'm basically left with the following possibilities:

A) you are trying to troll me
B) you haven't read and understood what I wrote
C) you are trying to use a strawman argument

Which one of A,B,C applies here?

You understood both those abbreviations perfectly fine so I would say I am not misusing them. And a bitcoin mine is a datacenter. Not sure what is even debatable about that.. Regardless of the semantics you completely avoided the question.



Air conditioning is not required? So you know something that everyone with a datacenter in warm climates doesn't?



It seems like A and C perfectly apply to you. As for B, I believe you understood the question.

Again how much do you think it would cost to build a 1MW "bitcoin mine"? (excluding the asics)

OK, so you decided on sophomoric trolling.

However the last question is sensible (without the parenthetical qualifier).

Again how much do you think it would cost to build a 1MW "bitcoin mine"?

My answer will be to the general readers of this thread, not to jimmothy in particular.

That question is interesting. I assume that 1MW was just a shorthand for "industrial size" sold in 1MW increments. With this type of investment you can afford to hire the services of two engineers:

1) ASIC engineer with knowledge of mixed-signal and/or analog IC design including the IC packaging. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to understand that plastic QFNs and thousand pad BGAs aren't the proper solution. I've actually given this advice to friedcat long time ago, he replied and then quickly deleted his reply.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91173.msg1062969#msg1062969

2) chemical process engineer with knowledge of thermodynamics-intensive processes and basic understanding of electromagnetic field theory or electrical engineering. He'll help you design the proper heat exchange system while paying attention to the electrical power&signal requirements of the chips.

Just let the two of them work for couple of days/weeks and they will come with a truly competitive Bitcoin mining installation.

So basically you are saying immersion cooling is too expensive but you have no idea what it costs to build a 1MW farm?

)))

I guess You are discussing with HR director )

Personal accusations which are not very helpful.

I mentioned above in reply to one of your posts that DataTank works with any fluid. The web site also states from day one the following:


http://www.datatank-mining.com/faqs/wont-2-phase-immersion-cooling-cost-more/

Feel  free to compile a list with competing products, compare physical properties, cost, availability and all that. You will do me a big favor, as I will be able to compare that with our own findings and do some test boiling if we haven't done it yet. We've been doing this for a few years now, IRL you know ;)

I don´t think he was misleading anyone when stating "no more heatsinks and fans required" as he was obviously talking about the mining units themselves, not the whole solution.

I think you are nitpicking answers, taking them out of context and then adding some arbitrary rambling to it so somebody might think you have a valid point.

He got me a bit worried... Lol  :D

Antirack, to dispel all doubts can you categorically say all reasonably known costs have been included in your estimates?

Actually let me write a short summary:

Datatank advocates two-stage Novec+water cooling system that is two-phase immersive in its first stage. The successfully deployed pilot installations used either chips unsuitably packaged for high-power application (Xilinx Spartan) or used under-engineered ASIC chips&boards from a vendor who already admitted to not being able to hire suitable engineering talent. All Datatank systems already/will contain a full power water cooling system (either open-loop or closed-loop) that works as a second stage of their design. In my estimation a large scale dedicated Bitcoin miner will realize savings in both capex and opex by utilizing a single-stage liquid cooling system that is essentially equivalent to just a second stage of the Datatank system. Those savings are contingent on being able to hire suitable engineering talent with expertise in high-power and mixed-signal installations.

In my estimation the only way where investing in Datatank securities and/or equipment makes sense is when the Bitcoin mining is just a temporary stage in a long term strategy to compete in the compact/nomadic data center market currently served by e.g. SGI.

Yes, of course. All costs are included. Including every last screw and nut and a concrete slab for it to sit on. Contrary to 2112's belief, we are not beginners ;)

Thank you. That is good enough for me. 

All arguments about costs aside it's practically impossible to asses profitability because no one knows what the market will allow DataTank to get from miners in 3-6 months from now (DTMB). In case of DTMA it's even more complicated (e.g. boards deployment timing). Nevertheless thanks for 'business case' numbers.

Though in general mining environment is extremely challenging (if not outright hostile) DataTank solution could be the way to go.

Also as potential investors we should always remember about the impact of btc valuation at the time of investment. For example, today probably everyone should seriously consider denominating into fiat all investments (shares, units, mining hardware, contracts...) paid with btc.

I have not followed closely.

Antirack, what is your relationship with DataTankMining and Allied Control?

I've also asked a few times without getting a response. Different portions of the prospectus, forum conversations suggest that  Allied Control and DataTankMining are the same entity, separate entities, supplier-customer, share the same management team, etc. What actually are the relationships?

DataTank is a spinoff of Allied Control.

As to who exactly Antirack is, he can tell you himself ;)

I did not see your question, apologies.


The post number one in this thread says the following:


In post number two I personally said:


The prospectus says:


It is also explained in the FAQ on the web site, I spare you the copy and paste:

http://www.datatank-mining.com/faqs/partnership-with-allied-control/

DataTank Mining and Allied Control are different companies (legally). I work as VP of Engineering at Allied Control and I am a co-founder of DataTank Mining. I can use Allied Control's resources (SMD line etc) and have access to internal prices, since I have built these systems with my team. You'll also find my name (Alex) in the DTM prospectus, on the site (DTM + Allied Control), and in the company brochure (Allied Control). I have been working with Friedcat and his team since early 2013. Prior to that with FPGA developers. I have also published several articles about immersion and Bitcoin, and you can look me up on the company blog or LinkedIn.

You will find me in both of these pictures:
http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/ows_139701009277917.jpg
(where we presented the Ice-X with the Intel, SGI and 3M team)

https://twitter.com/SpondooliesTech/status/481736473197023232/photo/1
(with Asicminer (not in picture), Rockminer, Bitmaintech, Spondoolies Tech, Genesis-Mining and a few others)

I truly believe that immersing Bitcoin ASICs is a game changer. There will be chips and boards that are otherwise not possible using traditional cooling. it also changes the power profile, which means apart from having no fans that consume power, the ASIC chips, power supplies and DC circuits do a better and more efficient job, consuming less electricity. And some more.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thank you.

@antirack; @DTM:

Please remember to always post significant updates on your assets at havelock (in the updates section ;) )
Not everyone is reading bitcointalk threads.

Been skimming through this thread and trying to find some updates regarding the IPO in between the fighting and bickering. No luck.

Can anyone help me out and just give a quick status update? I thought the IPO was supposed to start June 24? Thanks in advance for any useful info :)

I believe the IPO has been pushed a couple weeks:




"How to buy Shares/Units:
Units will be sold in 4 rounds on HavelockInvestments.com, discounts for early investors will be available (public offer date preliminary set to July 7).

Angel investors can also purchase units directly from DataTank Mining, please contact us via email. A minimum purchase amount of 100kW (10,000 units) applies for direct shares."

The last progress update was here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655464.msg7469776#msg7469776

The public sale of capacity units on HavelockInvestments.com has been pushed back (preliminary date Monday July 7, after the U.S. Marshall's  Service Bitcoin auction and the July 4 weekend).

It is now also copied to the first post and will be done so in the future for consistency.

data tank's strongest feature is it's density. But what use is density if chips need to be replaced every 6 months? That kind of turnover is ridiculous and expensive. And when the prospective says that they need 3-6mo just for deployment, how exactly does 2PH scale relative to the likely 400+ PH of the entire network?

I have no doubt that these guys who engineered and created data tank are smart businessmen. I am positive that they will make money, but I am equally positive that investors won't unless something crazy happens like sha256 ASICs randomly stalling moore's law, and there is some abrupt plateau in chip performance @28-20nm process.

This technology is far too ahead of it's time. When network PH stabilizes or plateaus, this kind of technology will be insanely valuable. But I dont think (according to puppets measurements) we will likely see that anytime before the network hits 2,000 PH.

Then buy DTMB.

DataTank's strongest features are that (a) it costs less, (b) deploys faster, (c) can be reused, (d) reduces hardware to chips on boards, (e) allows a lot of room to grow (current condenser designs are close to 500kW per tank at 35C, they will do even better in cold Washington state).

Density is important, but only plays a secondary role. It also goes beyond the device level that you see on the surface (ie. smaller space required). At many places space is not a problem, but a 10 ft electrical cable costs 10 times less than a 100 ft cable to keep it simple and make an example = cost savings again.

More important for the job on hand is this in my opinion (_in addition_ to the cost savings on the infrastructure/cooling):

One single DataTank container is around 576 SP30 from Spondoolies Tech. I have done this example a few days ago already in a previous post.

576 2U enclosures cost a lot of money
576 power supplies cost money
17,280 (576x30) heatsinks cost money
4608 fans cost money
Etc

All that needs to be installed, quality controlled (several times), packaged and shipped from China to Israel to Washington State.

It needs to be packaged, shipped and quality controlled multiple times in fact (at the manufacturer, at Spondoolies when it comes in, at Spondoolies when it goes out).

So how many days does it take the Israeli factory to build, assemble and prep 576 (15 palettes? maybe more) of hardware? Quite a while. Building it in China and shipping to WA still no big difference, somebody has to assembly all that metal.

How much faster and cheaper can FedEx (we are in a rush in Bitcoin mining) deliver 1 palette with boards compared to 15 palettes? I wouldn't be surprised if the shipping cost alone could buy a new car (I will look into this). You also ship twice, once from China, then from Israel. Shipping cost is probably a double digit percentage on these systems, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than a quarter!

And how long does it take on the other side at the mine to unpack all that, get it ready for installation, and distribute it in 144 racks? (assuming you can install 4 in a rack, that's 10kW/rack)

144 racks from China, that need to come in in a few shipping containers, also cost $40k to $70k, depending on what quality you want (I assume he cheapest). How long to _assemble_ 144 racks? 1 person can probably assemble a few of them in a day. You'll need call a lot of friends if you want them up in a week.
 
If you run a complete TCO comparison (total cost of ownership), you will find out that you saved yourself a lot of money already at the beginning, and that you pay much less operating costs, and that you are online a lot earlier than otherwise.

In the case of DataTank, the deployment of these SP30/Rockerbox boards takes literally a single person a half day. And the moment the chips are soldered to the boards they can leave the factory towards the mine. And because of the efficient cooling, they will actually consume less electricity (reduced leak currents). That's not even related to the missing fans. As a result, you can either save on OpEx, or crank them more (higher hashrate). As Bitcoin miner you probably want the latter, especially with cheap electricity cost and no cooling overhead.

Of course some critics may say you could also reinvent the wheel, design the ASICS in a totally different way, higher some scientists and show the world (Bitcoiners and everyone else) how to do it. But that is what we have here and today, and I truly believe it's the future. We have been doing this for almost 3 years. We are doing it because it makes total sense. And it's not an idea, it exists.

-- // --

Of course the 3 months _initial_ build time is long, but the DataTank plan is long term. After that it only takes a few hours and everything is re-used. Again and again. And don't forget that after the initial phase, the production pipeline is setup and we can produce 1 or a hand full or even more per week.

In the western world, from the idea of deploying 1MW to actually doing it there is a difference of a few months and a lot of work. Case in point: lead time of a transformer is 8-12 weeks minimum, installation time will take another 1-2 weeks, commissioning by the power company another week. From start to finish a lot of money changes hands.

That's why cloud mining is so attractive nowadays to the small miner (I am not talking about the ripoff sites). You save all the trouble. But even the cloud mining companies still need to run their hardware somewhere, and these are the people hat actual deploy real hardware and make the experience I am point out above.

Re: build time. My understanding is that DTMA will purchase chips at the time it is ready to deploy? Is this correct?

Ridiculous.  No one who ever bought Ethernet patch cables, or guitar patch cords, or electrical extension cords would ever say that. With typical lengths (oh, Ethernet cables, 10ft/100ft), the price difference is not x10 but ~2.5.


...and are not necessary for a permanent mega-scale installation.  The (open) chassis housing multiple boards could well be integrated into custom racks.


Sure, but if you're suggesting that it's cheaper/more practical to have a few gigawatt monsters, those can exist for air/water cooled setups too.


Err...  Isn't that Novec stuff ~$350/gal?  How many gallons in a 40ft container?  And all that heat exchanger plumbing and cooling towers, etc, etc.?
Come on :)


Your containers don't need to be shipped, installed or quality controlled?


Again, not when you have a bulk order of 576 units to be installed at one location.  Each unit isn't packaged individually, in a colorful box with glossy instruction manuals and a few CDs of pr0nz gaems drivers whatever it is.  Bulk shipping is a thing, it's not rocket surgery.  Further, what you'll be shipping will be 100% standard, easily serviceable by semi-trained personnel.  Who would not have to put on scuba gear, power down the entire farm, and dive into boiling Novec to pull out one bad board :D


No frickin idea, depends on the factory.  You act like Israel is some third-world country.


Faster?  Usually not much.  FedEx doesn't hand-carry each box to its destination.  They have big trucks and big planes.  How much faster is it to deliver one letter instead of ten?

I mean sure, there are advantages, but what you get in the end is highly specialized gear that can't be resold without mods, two separate production lines (one for consumer gear and one for stripper boards for submerged use), and a slew of unforeseen complications that come with new technology.  Don't over-hype.

The cost difference between 1000ft of cable vs 10000 ft of cable is ~10 times. They are not buying individual 10 ft cables from best buy.


Custom racks. Sounds cheap and reusable.


I'd also like to know how much fluid per KW they are using.


There is no need to resell hardware because with 2x efficiency and $0.02/kwh they will be the last ones to dump their old hardware.

Who said anything about consumer gear?

And what do you mean "a slew of unforeseen complications"? You know they have been running an immersion DC for months right?

If he's talking about 10ft vs. 100ft, I can safely assume he is talking about cable with connectors on its ends, not bulk length.  At which point, the connectors and labor become a significant part of the cost.  The x2.5 number I gave is for shit cat5 10packs.


A hell of a lot cheaper than 40ft container full of Novec.  At $350/gal, my guess is approximately 50 times more expensive than the table wine you drink :D


Err... You know they've been running conventional data centers for decades, right?
And yeah, I'd like to be able to sell hardware if i wish to liquidate, or have a chance to unload it at a profit.

I know that sounds crass, but I just wanna use hardware, I don't feel like we need to get married.
But you...  I see you already got a stiffy for this handsome 40-footer full of unicorn peckersnot.  You marry it, just send me pix! :D

This is all included in the price.

Novec is not cheap, but it's not even close to $350/gal.

And again, we can use as little as 200cc per 4000W.

The value proposition of our solution is therefore that it is less expensive than what you would need to spend for heatsink and fan once 1MW of mining gear is deployed.

That's the whole point.

There are some very professional people that have built a facility in Prineville, Oregon. They have invented the Open Compute Project just for that. They essentially strip anything from their machines that doesn't contribute to efficiency, including the paint. They also don't use UPS and their facility is cooled with good old fans and water and nothing else.

Result:

28MW Facebook facility
One of the least expensive facilities today (100% free cooling)
$210 Millions spent
Thousands of new jobs created
Cost of $7500/kW (vs. $500 of DTM)
PUE 1.09 (vs. <1.01 of DTM)
Millions of gallons of water used every year (DTM wastes zero)

http://www.fbpuewue.com

Sure, Facebook is not Bitcoin mining, but how much more efficient than using fans at a relative cool place could it be? They have all their details publicly available, check their facilities in the Arctic Circle where it's even colder and you will be surprised.

This is not a hype. Passive 2-phase cooling will change the way hardware is cooled and the cloud is built. No matter with 3M or other fluids. Bitcoin is the incubator, just like it's taking chip design to new levels. I have published and article in Electronics Cooling just about this topic, and it made the cover page in March.

http://www.electronics-cooling.com/2014/02/bitcoin-2-phase-immersion-cooling-and-the-implications-for-high-performance-computing/

What makes it work is simple physics and recent changes in the way how chips are made (a lot happened since the 1970 when IBM looked at it first). We are just the first to create some noise, but that doesn't mean we have invented all this.

Bitcoin also takes this to an accelerated path: nobody could have imagined Bitcoiners being the first to make chips with hundreds and hundreds of watt, or being amongst the first to ship 20nm or 16nm devices to the end user, and yet the first 20nm chip comes from KNC.

Enough for today ;)

What is it you do for a living antirack?

*whole.  Pitch isn't half as pro with misspelinks,

I apologize, engrish is not my native language  ;D

^
Nor mine, but you understood the question, right?

He works for Allied Control / Data Tank Mining, as documented in this thread about one page ago. (are you that lazy?)

What is it you do for a living?

It seems like you hold the position that immersion cooling isn´t the way to go but you have no idea how much a regular high density datacenter costs?

From experience i know that an online argument is pretty much won when the only thing the other side complains about is their spelling....


The fact of the matter is, that high density datacenter space is expensive AND very limited, as there is a good amount of competition between potential buyers.

If the network keeps growing much more (and i don´t see a stopping point yet) a miner will find himself competing with the big companies for very limited high density hosting space.

It only seems smart to develop a high density DataTank, as you then essentially own your (ultra) high density hosting facility yourself and profit from lower OPcost and bulk electricity rates.
(Alongside many other things)

Antirack - can you confirm chip purchase timeline?

Yes that is correct.

Antirack is Alex Kampl, VP Engineering @ Allied Control & DataTank mining.

That's all folks :)

With so many fine offerings available on Havelock (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=666993.0), who has the time?


wat?  


Spelling is just the cherry on the cake.  "A cable x10 as long costs x10 as much" caught my attention, since that comes close to epitomising right-sounding but in reality dead-wrong selling points.  Reading further, I realized the rest of his points were equally valid.
I went on to point out the weakness of each one, punctually:


So yeah, there are a few things beyond spelling here.


If there is indeed demand for DataTank gear, mining farms/ ASIC manufacturers should be eager to buy into this.  Why fund this through an unlicenced Panamanian exchange by pitching the scheme to laymen?  

Re. what I do for a living:  If I was pitching my company, the question would be both reasonable and relevant.  I'm not, so it isn't.

U may now return to disruptive technologing.

*To proof 2 U I haz pioneerink recearch, sea patint bellow (YES!!  Turbine riggerd up to electricitys generator for cooling towerz and popcorn popping!):

I hope it was an ironic / comedic post which nobody expects to be taken seriously (thank you for the nice drawing though).

What are you claiming here, that AC/DTM doesn´t have any patents or that only patented structures are able to generate profit?
Last time I checked, you don´t need a patent for a structure to be profitable.

I don´t know why this is important but yes, 10* the cable length does in fact cost (near) 10* as much. You are not talking 1m and 10m here but 500* 10m-100m.
This was also only meant as an example for certain hardware costs, and never to be taken literally.


Are you seriously complaining that a company is trying to have the average miner get into immersion cooled mining?
It is a great solution to many problems that come with high density miner deployment. (as already frequently mentioned)

Usually people are more upset when the big companies develop technologies and keep them to themselves. Offering anyone the chance to profit who is willing to take the risk is a good idea in my opinion.


If you are upset that DTM is trying to raise funds (for a very likely profitable venture) you are entitled to that opinion, however nobody forces you to buy any shares.



To go through your points:

- cable example: see above. It was meant as an example for some hardware costs, but still stands on a large scale (if you really do want to take it literally)

- Enclosures for the sp30 are in fact needed, as they direct airflow and make the unit stackable / rack mountable.
  The custom rack solution you proposed would need a lot of NRE costs and most likely be more expensive than just fitting enclosures.

- PSU costs are included in the fixed costs of the container. They are regular server grade platinum PSUs with some small tweaks for immersion cooling.
  They power every hardware that goes in the DataTanks and are reusable with every new miner generation.

- The "40ft container" is just the big enclosure, the tanks are much smaller. A very small amount of fluid is needed per blade and the cost is included in the overall cost of 0.5-0.7$/W.

- Shipping costs are saved as miners are lighter, take up less volume etc., the container is shipped only once, but can be shipped to a better location if so preferred (try that with your datacenter ;) )

- DataTank gear needs less testing (during manufacturing) as there are less manufacturing steps (money saved here aswell!).
  There is no need to power down the whole farm for servicing (I don´t know how you have come up with that).
  There is also no need to put on any special protective gear (though putting on gloves shouldn´t set you back to many hours ;) )

- It obviously takes more time to completely manufacture finished miners than to just get PCB blades from the factory, ready to be deployed in the tanks. (It not only saves time but also labor = money)

- Havelock is by far the most professional Bitcoin exchange out there. They properly vet any new stocks and the companies behind them, so nobody simply runs off with your invested funds.
  Who is to say professional mining farms / manufacturers aren´t interested in this?
  As a fact, AM has a 0.5MW immersion cooled facility (using the same basic technology), and it was built by AC, the "parent company" of DTM.

It is my post.  As its author (and patint hodler), I assure you it is super srs. It is the future of Bitcoin mining, and I'm IPOing it on Havelock.


Not sure what you're talking about, but I'm talking about this:

My example uses these exact lengths, not "1m and 10m."  antirac's example uses 10ft and 100ft, not "10m-100m."  Please don't make any more sciences.


Not complaining.  Just stating the obvious--if there was industry demand for this product, why offer it to laymen through an unlicenced Panamanian exchange?


If you think DataTank Mining is doing this to share the wealth, I doubt anything further I could say would sway you. 

  ~Happy investing!

Re. your edit:


See reply above.


Compared to this Rube Goldberg contraption, the costs would be insignificant.  Further, to mount proprietary gear in these "Data Tanks" also requires NRE.  Unless you think that the installation is simply a question of backing up a dump truck full of PC boards to a 40-footer and tilting the bed.


So how is this different from "576 power supplies [that] cost money"?  How is this an example of savings?


If you're using the "it's included in teh cost" argument, then this entire discussion is irrelevant.  


The miners are lighter, but (the 40-footer + cooling tower + miners) ain't.  All that stuff doesn't ship itself.


When a board (blade) goes bad in the "DataTank," replacing it isn't as trivial as replacing an air/indirect water cooled board.  A whole cluster needs to be powered down and cooled before being serviced.


Unless you're suggesting that DataTank uses something similar to the LEM system IBM toyed with and discarded in the 70s (which antirack referenced), that's exactly what would need to happen unless the techs are wearing rebreathers :)


Judging by the vids, hundreds of boards are sitting in the same Novec tank.  This is a closed-loop system, with the vapors condensing and returning to the tank.  Opening that tank with the miners powered up and boiling Novec would do 2 things:  Vent the vapor into the environment (thus losing exorbitantly expensive Novec, if nothing else), and suffocating you (unless you think that Novec turns into air in vapor phase).


Etc., etc.

At the end of the day the only thing you need to know is this:

Immersion cooling is cheaper than building a high density facility to host your miners in.

Immersion cooling is more efficient than even a free-cooling facility.

Immersion cooling has cheaper operating costs, as less personnel is required, cheaper electricity can be sourced and efficiency is higher.


Additional savings from reusable power supplys, less cost per hardware (faster/cheaper manufacturing, no assembly required)

Warm fuzzy feeling because *bubbles* (this is not meant to add monetary value).

Your very own (part) of an ultra high-density hosting facility!

OK Collider, I'll take your word for it :D

http://s10.postimg.org/lx2cf5wg9/image.jpg

If you do not even know the cost of a 1.2MW brick and mortar facility, how can you even contest the value proposition?

Please share your inside knowledge of the alternative you are proposing to solve the high density miner deployment problem.

Lol Collider, a mining farm has little to do with data centers.  Think "chicken coop" :)

http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/bmiddle/62d41719jw1ehqmxt0q6cj20hs0dcad0.jpg

1st I said facility. This is not limited to a datacenter.

2nd Do you know the cost of the pictured facility? People usually choose to have their miners enclosed so nobody with sticky fingers gets to them. (And one miner magically turns into two overnight ;) )

3rd Assuming it is in China, power cost is between 12ct and 8ct/kWh (if you have the right connections)

Datatank can be deployed anywhere in the world with cheap (and clean) power. (starting at 2.5ct/kWh)

Datatank miners are cheaper.

Something to consider for the future:
Chinese power costs are highly subsidized by the government. It is unlikely that they will remain so "low" forever.

Ur sadly misinformed/confused about electrical prices in general...  US average electrical prices per KWh, in pennies:

http://s29.postimg.org/oo8sl1hmf/Capture.jpg
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/7?geo=g&agg=0,1&endsec=vg

http://s28.postimg.org/4iv2f05yl/Capture.jpg
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_3

The Moar You Know

It's pointless to reason with nlc.

I realize that.

@nlc
What exactly are you criticizing about my proposed electricity price?

Obviously you are not looking to get the "average industrial rate" but the cheapest.


Are you doubting that there is no place on earth with stable electricity at ~2.5ct /kWh ?

I'm responding to the tidbit below, and pointing out just the opposite:  that even the average US industrial power cost is quite low, substantially lower in some states, like Washington.


Building a Goldbergian contraption is unnecessary, as the pic of a mining farm shows.  antirack comparing DataTank's operational costs to data centers is comparing apples to oranges--IRL large-scale mining farms don't rent data center space.*  They are built in hangars (KNC) or cheap warehouses/corrugated steel sheds (pic above).  No AC, no humidity control, no filtered air that you pay for in DCs.
That's what DataTank should be compared to, not DCs.

---

*Unless you're talking about mining farms selling shares to rubes, like PETA.  But then cryptx gots *solar power* :D

Anyhow, I see you have quite a thing for DataTank Mining, sorry if I offended your waifu :-\

  ~Happy investing

I understand that this is entertainment for you, but it's absolutely not for us and we do take this serious. This is our full time job and we know a thing or two about hardware, technology, or deploying Bitcoin clusters. If you have no valuable contribution to make to this thread, please do not post. A polite request.

The people and companies you mention are personal contacts of ours, the mines you post are places we visited.

KNC's facility was built by The Node Pole in Sweden. The same company who built Facebook's data center in their neighborhood. They don't come cheap. KNC hired them after they did $75 million turnover within a half year of time.
KNC pays dozens and dozens of people to keep the fans running. That's a lot of salary in Sweden, on a monthly basis. Ask Sam Cole or read his press releases.
So much for cheap mines.

The picture in China is nice, but has little to do with today's hardware that pulls a lot of power per device (ie. 2500W SP30) - if HW is not stolen it breaks down.

Even in China there is a drive towards immersion, after all China is the pioneer. Give it a few months   ::)

20A@230V?
4600W?
If we're still talking Spondoolies SP30, that's 2500W, or 2100W less.  The other monster is TerraMiner IV@2100W, or 2600W less.
Why do you feel the need to exaggerate?
Also, what makes you feel that the gear running in DataTank will not require maintenance?  I assume that's what you mean by "...dozens and dozens of people to keep the fans running."

*Re. Chinese mine:  It IS today's hardware, "1000 machines(720G/machine using AM Gen 3 chip) on line in hashratio farm in China."

The fact that crumbs/notlambchop is just grasping at straws is making me more sure that this is a solid investment.

@Jimmothy:

What can I tell you?  Thus far, all of your investings have been disastrously bad.  No exceptions.
If you could just figure out how to do the exact opposite of everything that you do, you'd be filthy rich :)

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/299/9/c/fancy_pants_by_mattyhex-d5j0yhp.png

  ~Happy investing

https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0ByWHHc0u_thNdzB3c2hvVzJkcTQ
Have you read the design guideline document? The installation will be just plugging in mining hardware via edge connector (like a GPU card), which takes a few seconds at most. The same edge connector could be used for air-cooling as well, so that no NRE required. It is an attempt to introduce a similar standard like PCIe to the mining hardware industry with several key manufacturers very interested to participate. Compare that to installing fans and heatsinks with multiple screws, taking several minutes at least. It's like desperately holding on to installing a GPU via manufacturer-specific interface instead of via standardized PCIe. Setting up a few is no problem, setting up many thousands is a different story.

Rube Goldberg contraption are subject to context and perspective. You may see that as over-engineered if you don't compare correctly. But with multiple hardware generations, every time mining hardware manufacturers have to design a new case, new cooling infrastructure, cooling and performance tests, assembly and manufacturing of everything surrounding the boards, this sounds to me much more as over-engineered. Considering that air is inherently inefficient to transport heat away (insulator in every Starbucks double-walled plastic mug, double-paned windows, etc.), a lot of engineering has to be employed to make it work effectively.

Did you know that Tencent, Baidu and other big data centers in China have an army of technicians who do nothing else but exchanging broken fans? Did you know that Intel has reliability studies of electronics rusting away within a few months in India and China because of much higher sulfur content in the air/humidity/rain? I know for a fact that many Chinese mining operations need to exchange a lot of broken fans as well and have to deal with tons of heat issues - if not mining hardware, then network switches, PSUs, etc. Those open air chicken farm facilities will probably make it impossible to reuse most of the components like PSUs if they corrode away.

http://www.intelfreepress.com/news/corrosion-testing-procedures-adapt-to-rising-air-pollution/6763
http://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/index.ssf/2013/10/intel_finds_asian_pollution_ma.html

Sure, some of today's mining hardware at 40nm+ may just barely get away with so-called 'free cooling'. But that comes at the expense of spreading out in low density (e.g. huge 'chicken farm' / entire building vs 1 container). If everyone is moving towards 28nm and lower in not too distant future, then many will realize very quickly that physical limits of W/m²K heat transfer in air and single phase liquid can't be overcome. To cool down hotter mining hardware, it either requires relatively cool air (chiller in hot climate, or cold climate but then often paired with higher electricity/logistics/labor costs and taxes) and/or a LOT of air volume. I've heard of China installations having to be shut down in the summer and/or having to deal with sub-par performance because of temperature induced down-throttling. What a surprise, since it all still worked so nicely in the winter, as many have set up air flow only for that scenario... 2-phase immersion cooling has a much higher heat transfer, so that it doesn't require many pumps inside the tanks at all to transport heat away. Less moving parts = less maintenance.


If not having to replace PSUs, but being able to reuse them for many future hardware generations, you are not forced to buy new miners again with new PSUs.

But the much more important point is that if miners are selling you a finished case with PSUs, it will add on to lead time on their supply chain. Meaning that if a new mining chip has been developed, which looks really good on screen at the prevailing difficulty that time, it might only come into your hands and will be ready for mining several weeks or months later: How fast can boards be assembled into cases if they have to be supplied from elsewhere, shipping back to a logistics center after assembly, etc.? And as mentioned above on the NRE: Customizing previous cooling solution for the new mining board, testing it, starting to order fans/heatsinks/water cooling blocks in bulk with inevitable delivery time, before assembly can even start.

In comparison to immersion cooling, the mining board could be shipped out right away. That's technically not any kind of saving, but additional realized mining income. The chart in the prospectus explaining the effect of delayed deployment time and text describe that this crucial time difference of just 10 days or less getting online faster could already pay off the entire DTM container costs and still leave you a nice income on top, while others are still waiting for their hardware and still have to start setting up afterwards.


It's all in the prospectus: The containers will be set up first at a location chosen by DTM. Only shortly before completion of setup, mining hardware will be purchased at best efficiency and price at that point of time. So only mining hardware has to be shipped around. But if it's necessary to ship an entire case, then of course the costs are going to be higher. Some cloud miners have revealed that they have to resort to split up mining hardware into boards in one shipment and cases plus heatsinks, etc. in another shipment for custom duties reasons, because those are much higher on finished products than on components.

Hobby miners might not care if one or a few cases slip through customs. But if it's about an entire farm, the story looks completely different. And then again, we're not talking about one generation only (although those savings are already significant, despite shipping the container first time) - for every subsequent mining hardware generation, there are again much higher shipping costs. A 2U case is about the same volume as probably 5-8 mining boards, while already set up DataTank containers don't need to be shipped any more and will be ready for new generations.


See above about replacing time. Consider furthermore, that most cooling solutions are already at today's maximum. If the TDP is higher, then they will need a new solution. So it's very likely not just reusing the old cooling solution for new mining hardware. You can be pretty sure that a cooling solution for 40nm or even 28nm won't work for 20nm or 14nm. Who is deliberately shipping oversized heatsinks and fans with current generation of mining hardware? Even if it would work, do you really think that mining hardware designers already consider to have the same PCB mounting holes for heatsinks, fan connectors, etc. at the same place for the next generation?

With 2-phase immersion cooling all this doesn't matter, since the fluid automatically surrounds the new mining hardware, no matter which shape and format. If you extrapolate the 4kW simulation in 200cc fluid in 1L space to an entire server rack, you would be at a theoretical 3-4MW per rack - try imagining how many future mining generations that would be if today's air cooling capacity maxes out at maybe 35-45kW per rack with LOTS of effort. It's not only cheap for the first generation already, but the costs can be truly split over multiple hardware generations because of it's incredible excess thermal capacity.

And how do you know that it's needed to power down a whole cluster? A single slot of many inside a tank needs to be powered down, since the PSUs are connected to up to 8 boards within that slot. But even that may not be the end of the road yet.


Again, how do you know? Anitrack has posted a picture of invited press, 3M people and himself standing around an open, bubbling tank. Antirack is obviously still alive and posting... furthermore, it's on the company website that it's Allied Control's expertise to minimize fluid and vapor losses. Having a way to hot-swap is one of the technologies already developed.

Let me quote myself from another post:

It's also used as fire extinguishing agent in the Library of Congress and as well the military for extremely confined spaces with troops inside as a much healthier and better alternative due to its much lower no effects limits than other solutions - it is intended for fogging an entire room with people inside with high concentrations of Novec, not causing any suffocation:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MNovec/Home/News/PressReleases/?PC_Z7_RJH9U523007AE0IUQAESTF39O3000000_univid=1273685423873
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNSHsUWcplo

It's perfectly fine to have another opinion and I will always respect that. But spreading wrong claims based on no source at all is not really strengthening any position.

You do realize that is an average for the US, and not indiciative of every state in America, right? Where I live (Ohio), its 2.5 - 4.0c/KWh depending on your provider. 

Another example of lack of understanding of physics and intentionally confusing analysis. The secondary loop in Allied Control's system is single phase. Obviously this poster is neither semi-literate nor semi-numerate. As of now I see two possibilities:

1) dishonest analyst (a.k.a. shill)
2) honest analyst that confuses single-stage and two-stage liquid cooled systems with air-cooled systems.

Time will show, so I'll quote the whole message against possible future deletion or editing.

Nothing wrong with establishing a standard, but this flies in the face of "compatible with any hardware" claim.  It's compatible with any hardware that follows this standard, which (to my knowledge) is, at this point, just one model of one manufacturer.  Am I mistaken?

DataTank Mining also does not (to my knowledge) have much in the way of IP here, and no chance for patents.  There is nothing to stop copycats once the hard work of developing demand is done.  If large miner manufacturers are genuinely interested, I see no reason to need fundraising through an unlicensed Panamanian exchange.  None.  If large manufacturers are not interested, then investing in this will be no different from investing in all the other Havelock offerings--a sure way to lose money.


You are forgetting the very thing you seem to advocate--standard form factor.  There are hundreds of motherboards, using different Intel chips, but all could use the same CPU cooler.  Standard form factor has nothing to do with 2-phase immersion cooling, and nothing is stopping manufacturers from choosing one and adhering to it.  They are doing it as we speak--using commercially available CPU coolers.  Common as dirt and only a bit more expensive.  No need for custom engineering, and readily available at amazing prices.


Useful lifespan of mining hardware is less than a year.  If "high sulfur content" corrodes them in 2 years, nothing of value is lost.  Enterprise-grade fans have reasonably good MTBF.  It's also a technology that's been around a bit, and is dirt cheap and simple to repair/replace by unskilled help.  Unlike the DataTank solution.


The picture I posted is ASIVMINER's  Gen 3 chips.  Far from the edge of obsolescence.


Smaller node size doesn't mean higher W/m².  KNC is cooling their 20nm chippery with air.  


In US, we invented air conditioning, putting the whole 2-phase thing into a discrete box.  You'd be surprised how well it copes with those hot summer days.  In the winter, we use another paragon of Yankee ingenuity--the Off Switch.  


There's nothing preventing you from reusing standard power supplies.  If you want them to last forever, simply avoid those high-sulfur electronics-eating hot spots on this planet you've mentioned before.  Just like you would avoid building your mining farm 1000 leagues under the sea, or 500 miles away from the closest power pole.  It's common sense.


Wait, maybe that's why KNC, along with many other gear companies, don't include a PS?  Simple solutions to complex problems 8)


Are you saying that you can concoct a hypothetical in which a manufacturer fumbles every bit of planning, forgoes common sense, makes some idiotic decisions and winds up not getting me the product on time?  Sure, it's been done, even.  By going with DataTank, mining manufacturers would be locked into a single-source proprietary solution, on the other hand.  You mess up, and they can't just switch to another heatsink manufacturer--they're dead in the water.  Even US army doesn't single-source.


See above.  There are many ways for manufacturers to screw up.  Adding a single-source, unconventional cooling solution into the mix is unlikely to eliminate them.

End of Part the First

Part the Two

"Americans have spent a million dollars to develop a pen that works in zero gravity and nearly perfect vacuum.  The Russians used a pencil."


This is getting weird.  An aspiring mining farm will buy your container and have it set up before getting its mining gear?  What a wonderful way to be faqued twice if the ASIC manufacturer doesn't deliver on time--not only having to absorb financial losses from not getting the miners, but being proud owners of some pricey storage containers and a chunk of land to keep them on.


wat


If the market demands upgradability, I'm sure the manufactrers (who are not currently using standard CPU cooling solutions) will accommodate.
This would be simpler than incorporating your edge-connector into their design.  Again, why come up with complex solutions for simple problems?


To be honest, as much as I feel that Bitcoin is here forever and its price will keep climbing, it would be irresponsible and impractical for mining concerns to lock themselves into such a long-term commitment.  If costs aren't recouped and profits are not realized quickly, people lose interest.


Please reread my previous posts.


I'm not saying Novec is toxic.  As I understand it, it is fairly inert.  But so is neon.  Don't try breathing it--it's fairly pointless, you'll suffocate.  Opening a closed-loop container while inside of a 40-footer doesn't quite give you much air to dilute.  Hence you'll probably want a forced-air suit.


See above.

I don't think that's the case. They way I understand this DataTank Mining is purposefully set up in Panama so that investment in them doesn't create any mortgage, secured debenture, collateralized loan, etc type of relationship. In other words in case of DataTank Mining going bankrupt Allied Control takes back the possession of the equipment leased to DataTank Mining.

It is tried-an-tested method of diluting the liability, the international version of "HashFast,CA vs. HashFast,DE" that is right now playing in a neighboring subforum.

I'm afraid it might be you who lacks the understanding of physics. There is a very hard limit to the max heat density you can cool via heatsink/fans. Notice how heatsink on high powered chips are always much larger than the chips? With immersion cooling you only need a tiny amount of fluid covering the chip.


You are completely forgetting that they are not selling tanks. They are selling an investment opportunity for mining/hosting.


Please do find the price of the cheapest ~300+W heatsink and 100CFM fan. I think you will find that they are not nearly as cheap as you imagine.


It might be simple but it is not cheap and it is very time consuming. Try plugging in 4000 fans on to asics inside cases/racks. That would be ~40,000 screws at least.


No, that is exactly what it means. Surprised a self proclaimed expert on everything like yourself doesn't know this.


Air conditioning is the least efficient way to cool hardware. You are looking at 1.3-1.5 PUE minimum and I'm sure with a bit of research you can figure out why it's not comparable even though yes, they both involve a phase change.

@Jimmothy:  Please delete your posts, they contribute nothing.
And stop trying to science.  Your brain just sputters and fumes like Novec in a hot fryer, it's unseemly.

300w heatsink :D  Bro, download moar ram!

I'd ask you to do the same but ignoring you is much more effective.


Heatsinks transfer heat aka watts. Sorry you don't understand elementary school level science.

Another fine example of somebody with high-school education giving engineering advice. The limit on two-phase immersive/evaporative cooling is created by vapor bubbles that have significantly lower heat conductivity than the liquid phase. For Bitcoin mining this shouldn't be the case because the devices work in a steady state. It really matters only with devices working in the impulse modes, where the time between the power impulses is higher than the time to release the bubble from the surface and replace it with a fresh, colder liquid.

Here is a fun Google Images search:

http://www.google.com/imghp?q=vapotron

Vapotrons were designed for immersive/evaporative cooling with distilled/deionized water, and be capable to operate in the impulse modes of "Class C" analog power amplifiers. Note the carefully designed evaporation grooves. What you can't see is the special processing of the surface to produce many steam nucleation sites.

Again, this doesn't really matter for Bitcoin mining. But for a really high-power application you really would've designed bubbling groves (thick & shallow heatsinks, really) and care about producing many vapor nucleation sites on the surface. This means that mirror-smooth backs of silicon chips are actually rather inefficient for immersive-evaporative cooling.

I remember that there is a really nice high-school level demonstration of this effect. In a really smooth and clean glassware one can heat water in a microwave to more than the boiling point. Then you can induce explosive boiling by dropping a rusty metal pin into the super-heated liquid.

The good thing in Bitcoin mining is that the coarse black plastic IC packages naturally have a lot of nucleation sites.

Thanks for the info. But do you not admit that immersion cooling is capable of cooling much higher power densities than air cooling?

I didn't even know that was up for debate.

Bump. Would like an answer from the horse's mouth on chip purchase timing for DTMA.

That question was already answered. (And might also be in the prospectus).

DTM will purchase chips/harware in time for deployment.

Todays´ chip prices were used as a reference point only.

If more hardware can be deployed for the same price, you will get awarded additional units.

Sorry, you are not the horse  ;). I'm interested in knowing when they will actually buy the chips. If they have bought now then there will be no extra money for extra chips. "In time for deployment" is different to "at time of deployment". If they buy chips now but take two months to install and "test the chps", the ROI will be very different. This affects my decision on whether to invest in dtma or dtmb.

In time for deployment means early enough that finished miners will be ready when the tanks are ready.

If you want to test something with the chips, you obviously don´t buy a bulk amount of chips and have them laying around, you buy some chip samples.

You don't really think "testing" means testing?  ;)

I am not quite sure what you are implying.

You get some some chips and build your first blade designs.

If it works out fine you go for the bulk order at bulk prices, nobody buys a Ton of chips just to have them lying around and loosing value. (Well anyone but hashlast ;) )

One would hope this is what actually happens, and if this is confirmed by Antirack I'll be happy to invest.

I think that he is implying that "testing" will be "hashing for ourselves".

This is incorrect. You speculate information that is openly available on the site or in the prospectus.

- DataTank Mining is not setup in Panama
- DataTank Mining is a real company with real people, not a shelf company
- It is our location with production line, office, CNC machines, etc.
- The address of DataTank Mining is on the web site and in the prospectus, openly
- It is the same address we have used for years

We have also received visits from forum members before, including as early as 2012 or just last week. Including some of the hardware manufacturers, including AM, Spondoolies, etc

This is not a one man show or shelf company.

DataTank Mining does not lease systems from Allied Control.

http://www.datatank-mining.com/faqs/partnership-with-allied-control/

The agreement encompasses to purchase DataTank container mining units at production cost value for internal use at DataTank Mining.

And just to be clear, we have free access to all of Allied Control's resources including production line and so on.

You can contact us any time if you have any questions, also directly. I had previously sent you a PM.

It's a honest business plan with solid technology. It would be extremely nice if you stop to speculate or make wrong claims. Thank you.

We are working with a number of chip manufacturers and keep working on it. The purchase (= when money changes hands) happens when everything is in place for manufacturing of boards and deployment of hardware. This has many advantages.

After chips are purchased they will go straight to our SMD line and then into our immersion tanks and be online without delay. This process can be made transparent, in order to avoid speculation of mining for self-profit (the "testing" referred to in the other posts). However, there will be shipping involved to the final destination. With previous installations, we have literally produced boards in the morning and deployed them in the afternoon. QC testing is usually done in the production line and takes less than a minute per board (visual inspection and power up/probing with pogo pins in test fixtures + real functional test). The first time the boards start mining will be when they create revenue for the unit holders.

Some parts (PCBs etc) need to be ordered in advance (weeks) for larger quantities. At that time the choice of chip/manufacturer needs to be clear. We have a good solution for that.

Let me know if that helps.

Yes good info. Assuming manufacturing is ready to go, what is the estimated timeline from chip purchase to shipping to immersion tanks? Reasonable approximation is fine.

That is for pick and place, aswell as reflow soldering. (Which in moderate volume can obviously be done in one day.)

Larger PCB orders take weeks to do cheaply (the earlier you order your PCBs and the higher the amount, the cheaper per PCB).


If your PCB prototype works well, you finish it and go into mass PCB production.
This happens in parallel to the manufacturing of the containers, so that everything is ready once the containers are ready.

The actual miner production isn´t what takes the most time. Ordering of mass quantities of parts has to be done beforehand in order to avoid shortages.

Once again, i'm forced to educate the great unwashed >:(

When I was a little kid, I wondered why resistors weren't simply labeled in volts, so if i wanted to drop the voltage by 2V, all I'd have to do is use a 2V resistor.
I was playing with scraps of wire I stripped with my little teeth.  I was about five years old.
Somewhere, across the globe, Jimmothy was already discovering the thrills of huffing the colorful liquids found under the kitchen sink.

Asking for a 300W heatsink is the equivalent of asking for a 2V resistor, or "a pipe that flows 2 gallons of water per minute."
That's why CPU heatsinks are not rated in Watts.
That's why you need a bigger heatsink to keep your CPU @45 degrees Celsius in a room @30 degrees Celsius than you would need to keep it @50 degrees Celsius in a room @15 degrees Celsius.

I know I promised today would be spent learning about shapes and colors, but ur simply not ready :-\

Please spare this thread with offtopic discussions.

Go build your magic heatsink miners and stop spamming this thread.

Why do you insist on lecturing people about topics you know nothing about?


So what you're basically saying is that your technical knowledge of electricity has not increased since you were five?


No it's more like asking for a 300w resistor. Heatsinks dissipate heat in watts which is probably why they are all in fact rated in watts. But don't take my word for it: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power


Nice for you to acknowledge one of the drawbacks of air cooling. I'm also happy you are actually trying to have a debate instead of exclusively slinging shit and grade school insults as usual.

@Collider:
Lol, and let ignorance and confusion reign?  
It is mah noblesse oblige to enlighten the huddled masses, "The wretched refuse of your teeming shore," as someone once so eloquently put it.
How about you go instead?

@Jimmothy:  Stop being retarded.  Of course air cooling has drawbacks, air's thermal conductivity is very low compared to, oh, water and copper.  To counter that, it also happens to be outrageously cost-effective.

Finally (and this will no doubt be news to you), both water and immersion cooling are simply an intermediate stage of air cooling, since the final heat exchange is still done between cooling tower and air.

Now stop being a nuisance >:(

Welcome, you are the very first noble person on my ignore list.

This is why I asked how much you think a 300w heatsink would cost. I would guess ~$30 for the heatsink and $10 for the fan and another ~$10 for the case/rack.


Yes but unlike immersion cooling, most air cooled DCs are indoors and require inefficient heat pumps to cool/move the air. There are operations like zhaos which are practically outdoors but it still requires a few thousand inefficient fans/heatsinks vs 1 giant pump and a few giant fans/radiators.

Immersion cooling also does not require such a large temperature difference like air cooling does.

Re: 300wW cooler:  Again, this is meaningless.  You need to specify the chip (die size (surface area), package type/size, etc., etc.)  Bitfury chips, for instance, need no heatsink other than the PC board copper, and convection cooling is good enough (no fan) for low ambient temps.

Forget the TDP article, the heatsinks are rated in watts based on different givens:  Intel/AMD chip (so die size/spreader size is given), ~70 degrees average working temp, average workload, average ambient temp.  Had you been trying to cool a GPU chip instead of a CPU, the TDP Watt rating would be different.  Also, when you are pricing heatsinks and fans, don't go with the consumer pricing, go with wholesale quantity lots.  Because you can't buy a DataTank for just one board.
Hope this helps.

If it's 2-phase cooling that you like, it is cool--conventional heat pipe heatsinks use it.  

http://www.thermacore.com/images/Products_Apps//heat-pipe-cooling-diagram-callouts.jpg

Edit:  If you know basic electronics, check out THIS LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_resistance), and scroll down to "Analogies."  Seriously helpful, not trolling.

A prime example for many fake claims made here, which are not based on any facts and lack sources. "Thus it was a surprise to the industry when electronics in high sulfur industrial environments would fail rather quickly, some within 4 weeks of being put in service; replacement systems would do the same. Most failures would occur in 2-4 months." - my point with potentially not being able to reuse PSUs, switches, etc. is still valid, as well the risk on reliability of mining operations.
http://www.dfrsolutions.com/pdfs/2007_08_creep_corrosion_on_lead-free_pcb_in_high_sulfur_environments.pdf

As for not installing in high-sulfur areas: Well, what experience do you have with building mines? Have you ever created a weighted multi-factor comparison list? It's not only electricity costs and climate. There are local labor costs, logistics / customs duties for importing hardware produced in China for example, general tax situation, or even as simple as that you don't want to move to another city/state/country, etc. I'm not saying that China is an ideal location, but there are many factors at play when choosing a mining location. So when you posted an open air 'chicken farm' mining cluster in China as example for cheap mining facility, then I was merely pointing out the related drawbacks specifically on that example. Open air will inevitably reduce reliability due to dust, pollution, humidity, etc. Then again, setting up a real building will cost more. Why do you have to restrict yourself from potentially lucrative locations if there is a container solution which is globally usable? Oil-rich middle-eastern countries have very cheap electricity and often zero tax. But too bad - open air facilities wouldn't work there with electronics getting the occasional sand blasting with the next storm, next to 50C/122F ambient air temperatures in summer.


Yes, walking is cheaper than driving a car - but it depends on your specific application: It may be just not suitable for anything more than 50 miles and/or if you need to be anywhere faster than walking and/or transport stuff. Same with air cooling, water cooling, etc. The higher the density and TDP, the more air or water flow are required due to the previously mentioned limits on heat transfer per medium - it gets more difficult, more effort/energy/costs required. I even had to run computational fluid dynamics simulations using COMSOL on multiple heat sinks in series to see effects on pre-heated air from front rows of heatsinks on heatsinks at the back - such setups require much more air flow than small single row setups. Studies like these show how insane it gets if you approach 20kW per rack:

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/sade-5tnrk6/sade-5tnrk6_r7_en.pdf
"Remove 2,500 cfm (1,180 L/s) of hot exhaust air from the enclosure [...] For reference, carrying 2,500 cfm (1,180 L/s) in a 12” (30 cm) round duct requires an air velocity of 35 miles per hour (56 km/hr)." - that's like holding a dinner plate out of the window while driving, just imagine the energy wasted to establish that... Yes, there are big industrial fans. But we need to consider total cost of ownership, including CapEx AND OpEx - inevitably, you will need to provide a very high air flow and maybe even chilled air to cool down sufficiently - both requiring a lot of electricity. As jimmothy pointed out already, average PUEs (and OpEx) of air conditioned installations or even cheap fan installations are MUCH higher than 2-phase immersion cooling.

I have as well calculated the pressure drop losses for multiple closed loop water cooling systems myself using Darcy-Weisbach equations, incl. all pressure losses per every elbow, valve, reducer, etc. Just running water in a big pipe won't get you anywhere, due to lack of surface area to mount your chips on. So water blocks are needed as interface to isolate water from electronics at the same time (but introducing more thermal resistance as well). And to get down from big pipes, branching out into multiple smaller water blocks, will lead to big pressure losses. This again requires not only very high water flow, but as well much stronger pumps using much more electricity. It's not just theory, I could calculate it down to fractional kW for given water cooling system. Even the heat pipe you are referring to has its limitation due to multiple thermal resistances before the heat even reaches the working fluid. And again, the higher the TDP, the bigger those heatsinks with heat pipes (e.g. notebook vs. desktop CPU).

With 2-phase cooling you can easily transport a lot of heat away from the small chips even with extremely high TDP. THAT is the key difference and why W/m²K matters. The secondary stage with the water system (no one was hiding/omitting this) is then going big scale away from hardware with a lot more surface area to reject the heat using only single phase. If you refer to the often quoted 4kW simulator on the PCB size of only two postcards, then we are talking about 16 GPUs or high performing mining chips in 20nm or similar, each putting out 250W (simplified analogy). Try cooling this with heatsinks and air or single phase water cooling with water blocks requiring sufficient space to be mounted on - all introducing additional multiple thermal resistance layers (silicon to package to heatsink or water block to air or water). The amount of air (hurricane speeds?) or water flow required will be immense and/or the energy to cool down air/water will be as well higher.

On top of that, several manufacturers having employed water cooling blocks noticed that it's now actually the power components like buck regulators, etc. which contribute more and more heat with increasing currents required for the mining chips which still needs to be rejected (e.g. fans despite water cooling blocks). And there is no elegant way to mount a water block on those due to lack of sufficient co-planarity over different components' heights. With 2-phase immersion cooling, the fluid simply surrounds everything, even the side of the chip packing to cool it almost all around, no matter which shape. Again, multiple of the biggest mining hardware manufacturers are seriously considering immersion cooling. Why should they still do that if 2-phase immersion cooling doesn't make much sense according to you? So yes, maybe we should all simply sit back, relax and wait as 2112 mentioned: "Time will show".

Obviously will also depend on location of tanks etc.. But some kind of idea of timeline would be nice. Thanks.

Bro, what you're doing here is a prime example of fake claims.  The article you link to, titled CREEP CORROSION ON LEAD-FREE PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARDS IN HIGH
SULFUR ENVIRONMENTS, [unsurprisingly] describes corrosion in one type of lead-free solder and a new type of surface finish (ImAg).  The described corrosion took place INSIDE of a paper mill, a rubber factory and a pottery plant.

The "study data" was collected thusly:

http://s16.postimg.org/ts8vykep1/Capture.jpg

The study then goes on to suggest PCB revisions, alternate lead-free solder pastes, plating and coatings to minimize the condition.

---

TL;DR:  Everyone who fired up a soldering iron or stuck a PCB in a frying pan knows lead-free solder sucks ass.  Industrial electronics (of the type to fill your gigawatt mining containers) are not required to use PB-free solder.  Use normal solder, or don't build your mine inside of a rubber factory/pottery plant.  Problem solved.

NotLambchop:  Simple solutions to complex problems^TM

Please read again: The key argument of linking to this document were the very short time frames of corrosion observed in high sulfur environments. Those time frames were listed in the general Introduction, and NOT yet part of the tests performed and mentioned later. So your counter argument pointing out the test environments and indicating that those were the abnormal conditions doesn't apply. Here some more info on data centers (including banks, financial services companies, etc.) observing corrosion despite data center and server rooms - not industrial environments. Note how much corrosion increases if outside air is involved: http://www.wescorhvac.com/What%20is%20Creeping%20Around%20in%20Your%20Data%20Center.pdf

Furthermore, this study has been made by DELL with environments known in the USA, or maybe even only specifically Texas. Have you traveled like me for many dozens of times to China and know that about 75% of electricity in China is still produced by burning high-sulfur coal? Have you read the news with many Chinese cities completely covered in the worst possible smog you can imagine with visibility less than a house block and pointing out the extremely high sulfur content, next to other contaminants known to promote corrosion? Safe WHO levels of PM2.5 are at 25. China has seen levels of 1,000 with even the capital of Beijing at 755 and not just some heavy industry areas: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/10/21/2810581/air-pollution-shuts-chinese-city/

Another interesting quote: "High airflow appears to increase creep corrosion, as it is most severe in the direct path of air intake (likely due to more sulfur being made available for reaction)." - this in combination with quantification of sulphide levels (http://www.era.co.uk/case-studies/impact-of-gaseous-sulphides-on-electronic-reliability/), shows why especially big industrial fans blowing polluted air in China on mining hardware can't be good even for short periods. I have 6 more scientific studies open here with quantification of pollution levels promoting corrosion, incl. on other gases like sulfur oxides, nitrogen oxides, etc. produced while burning coal and other manufacturing exhausts. I have as well studies on dust and humidity - ask me by PM if you want any of those. Even if the concentration of contaminants might not be high, the high air flow required to cool mining hardware is simply multiplying it a LOT.

I can provide you as well one data center architect at Baidu, the former chief data center architect at Tencent and a current data center manager at Tencent to back up my claim on air filtering in data centers in China - and those are modern data centers, NOT in industrial factory environments. Again, the amount of polluted air being pushed through is humongous. That's why they have to employ elaborate air filtering for a closed building. Now translate that to open air mining facilities.


Yeah, right. I hope you do know that the entire European Union has banned lead in ALL electronic products since 1 July 2006 - industrial electronics included: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281311/

Especially China is very well aware that a lot of electronics trash is being shipped from all over the world (back) to China for 'recycling' by salvaging components, metals, etc. (or sometimes just dumping it on land fills). No matter whether really salvaging by reheating the solder or just being subject to rain in a land fill, lead can be set free into the air and ground water. Since they already can't export any lead-based electronics to Europe any more and a larger number of countries are adopting the same policy (less demand/revenue), the Chinese government is in discussion to reduce, if not ban lead in electronics as well.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Just to clarify: I don't say that you are subject to that, but without sources or where your experience comes from, there might be a correlation (feel free to prove otherwise). All what I have posted so far is based on working since the 90's in the IT field with hands-on data center experience, in one case just one reporting level away from the CEO of a multi-billion dollar listed global corporation with tens of thousands of employees, with CEO, SVP, VP, Senior Director references to prove. I have as well designed and built multiple air and open/closed loop water cooling systems for close to a decade. So I really do know what I'm talking about on air and water cooled systems and can provide a large HVAC contractor having built water cooling systems for high-rise hotels to confirm my experience.

I actually like simple solutions very much, since I'm a real certified Lean Six Sigma practitioner and have lead multi-million dollar offshoring projects to India and China to help the company save millions every year, but I know as well about reliability studies like corrosion and even more about overall cost efficiency, etc. since I've studied a related field in my MSc and used that at work. On top of that I have been involved in the design and construction of multiple large scale industrial crypto-currency mining clusters over years. I didn't see it as necessary to mention that from beginning and I don't care if 2112 calls me 'not even semi-literate', as long as he doesn't reveal his own experience to base his claims on.

There's still a lot I have to learn, but all I know is that my arguments are based on real actual academic and work experience in the field, plus reliable external sources. If you have ever written a thesis (MBA and MSc on my side), then you will know how critical referencing and backing up claims is. Unfortunately, I have seen mostly empty or unrelated claims from you so far and not either what experience you have to substantiate. I don't know you, and you could be highly intelligent and skilled. So if you want to continue discussing, please provide reliable external sources and personal experience. Otherwise it will be difficult to take your claims seriously. We should move it to another thread or PM as well, since this is going way OT and I could provide you with many research papers to contribute to the discussion, but which would be distracting in this IPO thread.

Stop trying to make sciences with your brain--it's absolutely disheartening to watch.  You link to articles describing corrosion in one particular lead-free solder, the use of which was necessitated by the ROHS directive.  Yes, early lead-free solder sucked ass, as I have pointed out before.  Let's move on to modern-day scenarios:

1.  Stop harping on China--it is not bound by the ROHS directive, since ...wait for it... it's not a part of EU.
Anything made for local consumption, afaik, could be made out of lead served on a bed of led shavings topped with a dab of fresh molten led.  With a side order of led salad.

2.  While we have decades of data on air-cooled electronics, making studies such as the one you cited possible, there is scant data on electronics existing for even a year in Novec 7000-series engineering fluid.  The data we have is from enthusiasts, such as overclock.net, and is rife with anecdotal evidence of failure, from failing electrolytic caps (impregnated by Novec 7000) to broken solder joints (due to Novec trapped behind chips boiling->expanding vapor physically lifting the chip).
These experimenters are few, since even today Novec is sold for ~$350 a gallon for a full gallon.  The $350 number was quoted to me just today by a forum member.

3.  To this day, exactly 0 cases of creeping corrosion have been reported by bitcoin miners.  Zero.  None.
Making it a safe bet that it's not a pressing concern.  Stop finding solutions to nonexistent problems.
ty

*Re. "If you have ever written a thesis (MBA and MSc on my side)":  R U 4realz? :D

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/lean-six-sigma-for-dummies-cheat-sheet.html

It's common sense, Jim, but not as we know it.

Reading this, I was thinking: the dark horse that wants to supply chips in exchange for hosting is Butterfly labs. That is the only way they can cool their 600W boards :P

Re the 300W heatsink thing:
Heatsinks are rated with their temperature rise per watt. So a "300W" heatsink would have a temperature rise of maybe 40°C/300W or 0.133°C/W. It is my understanding that getting numbers lower than 0.6°C/W can get expensive (for air cooling). Edit: probably using heat-pipes that use...state-change cooling.

@IPO Magic

Yes, where did I claim that China is bound by ROHS? But did you know that China has its own RoHS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_RoHS. Yes, they are not as strict yet, but that's what I've written already that the Chinese government is aware that they have to improve (unsatisfied people = more reason for uprising). Did you know that even California has implemented something similar to the EU RoHS - again, earlier pointing out that there is a clear development towards wider adoption of similar standards? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Electronic_Waste_Recycling_Act. More to follow: http://www.dura-flex.com/rohsfaq.html#concern. But again, that's OT.

Yes, anecdotal evidence. Spontaneous miracle healing from serious illness - a rare freak event, usually not possible to be reproduced reliably, if at all. So even if you were to provide any reliable source (which you didn't), it's exactly called 'anecdotal' because it's statistically not significant.

So everything new is bad? Should we stop all clinical trials for new ground-breaking medicine, because we don't have enough numbers/experience? I'm not saying that air or water cooling are bad in general - there are valid applications like laptops, desktop computers, etc. But my point was that the higher the density (like Bitcoin mining hardware development), the more it becomes difficult to implement air and water cooling cost-efficiently. Do you know the Novec price in bulk purchase? Do you know whether Allied Control has any special deals in place with 3M because of the official 3M Technology Partner status? So why would you assume that this is the standard price?

How long have specifically those open air mining farms been operating? Do you know anyone personally (as in met face to face) - and even if you did: Would they reveal to you such issues or rather proudly gloss over it on a forum? There are lots of Bitcoin miners who do NOT build such open air facilities and/or operate in areas with much better air - never claimed that creep corrosion would be an issue everywhere. Yes, I can't prove any incidence of creep corrosion for open air Bitcoin miners (yet) and didn't claim that - only that it's a risk, since I have no source for that (yet). But you will equally have no source to prove your claim of zero incidences, only that you haven't heard/read of anything (not a proof). And this now stands again multiple studies on creep corrosion with high air flow and with high sulfur air, observed by a broad range of electronics made by DELL, HP, Alcatel Lucent, etc. Which one carries more weight? I know personally large scale Chinese and other Bitcoin miners who are despite those open air chicken farm mining facilities still seriously considering 2-phase immersion cooling.

Well, do you really want to see my transcripts? Question back to you: Are you for real? I highly respect many people without any degree - it's 'just' academic and in my opinion real work life experience counts much more. But that comment was meant specifically for the various claims made here without any reliable source, essential to anyone who went to college or even high school when quoting references. The USA will outlaw Bitcoins in 2014 - this wrong claim as ridiculous as that may sound currently, is easily written, but without source impossible to prove.

@Railzand

Dunning Kruger effect - similar to watching the World Cup in Brazil, Superbowl, or whatever and then discrediting the intensive years of training of those players as layman on the couch: What is your experience to make a qualified comment on Lean Six Sigma? It's heavy on statistics, with analysis like ANOVA etc. and did you know that many are using Minitab to crunch data, e.g. for reliability studies? There's quite a bit more to it with GE and Motorola heavily relying on it to save millions of dollars. Further, quoting 'for dummies' is already one thing. But then even only the summary or similar of the book cover for selling, yet another. Try doing the same for a physics book and you will get as well a generic summary - oh yeah, all that is common sense when they write multiple bullet point content headers without going into the details.

In other words, DataTank *might* offer a solution to a problem which *might* exist?  Miners are too proud and bashful to talk about creeping corrosion?  You make it sound like erectile disfunction :D
Other than the ridiculous costs, it might introduce more problems than it solves, no?  


Let's explore some fun possible fails with Novec 7100 immersion fluid :)
Take the ubiquitous electrolytic cap, present in most miners and every power supply.  These little (or big, in case of power supplies) cans contain highly-corrosive electrolyte, and fail regularly enough that the failure is planned for by providing a vent/pressure release at the top (the stamped cross)...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Blown_up_electrolytic_capacitor.jpg/120px-Blown_up_electrolytic_capacitor.jpg

...and, in some cases, a thin membrane at the bottom.

http://s4.postimg.org/qseus5nwt/Capture.jpg

Sometimes, these caps fail catastrophically with a bang, filling the room with a distinct acrid smell.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Exploded_Electrolytic_Capacitor.jpg

More often, the "vents" function as planned, allowing the electrolyte to slowly seep out and quickly pointing the board-level tech to the failed part.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3309/3338684405_0f18f1e736.jpg

In air/water cooled gear, this is dealt with by removing the affected PCB, removing the blown cap, giving the PCB a nice bath, and replacing the capacitor.

What do we do if the same thing happens on a PCB basking in $300+/gal Novec, sharing its sauna with a hundred other PCBs?  Well, we first have to shut down everything, drain the contaminated liquid money Novec, repair the failed board, flush the tank and the remaining boards, and replace the liquid money Novec 7100.

~At this point, Lecturer makes a long, meaningful pause, fixing the audience with his hypnotic "Hows 'bout them apples, huh?" stare.  One could hear a pin drop.  Several do.
 The audience, visibly shaken, finally breaks into unabashed sobbing.~

*Stop the muppetry.  If the industry was interested in your 40-footer filled with unicorn tears, you wouldn't have to peddle it to rubes on Bitcointalk.

If this would be a significant problem, how do you think AM has managed to operate its facility until today?

Also, i think the much lower temperature in the liquid will probably help capacitators not to fail.

Using quality components should also help avoid most risks of component failure.


I haven´t seen any miner whos´rig didn´t work anymore due to such a failure.
Quite to the contrary, most miners seem to still work even if capacitors are broken off completely....

How did the thousands of data centers and hundreds of mines manage to operate without a single report of "creeping corrosion" until today?

Also ur ignore button's broke:

>:(

Re. your edits:  In other words, only gear that doesn't fail should be used in DataTanks?
Re. yet another edit:  Miners will work with a few filter caps missing, that's not the point.  They will stop working if exposed to corrosive electrolyte from failed caps.  Do you even electronics, bro?

+1. Thanks for supporting me on this. Yes, some boards are actually over-engineered (in a good way, because sometimes they need to rush out hardware to be first on the market and make sure it works fine). Look at the first generation ASICMiner Boards. The first ones had a lot of caps still on them and later several of those got removed and the board was still working.


Thanks for pointing this out - you're actually doing me a great favor. While I haven't searched for any reliability statistics, the very picture you've used out of Wiki mentions this as well: "Many of the capacitors had a life span specification (load life) of 2000 hours at 105 °C. With a lower average internal temperature of 45 °C on a printed circuit board and a ripple current within the data sheet specifications, these capacitors should have a life expectancy of about 18 years of continuous operation; a failure after 1.5 to 2 years is very premature."

Furthermore: http://www.electronicproducts.com/Passive_Components/Capacitors/Failure_modes_in_capacitors.aspx#.U7VeV_mSx8E
"Temperature is of great concern to any capacitor. On a circuit board, capacitors should not be mounted close to heat sources. This applies to most capacitors, but especially to aluminum. A radiation shield between the cap and the hot component prevents the hot component from accelerating failure mechanisms, which can be simply a shorter lifetime (or faster parameter drift), or the opening of the pressure relief vent in extreme cases. To avoid failures in high-temperature applications, the designer should use capacitors with lower losses, a larger size, or a higher temperature rating."

There are many more sources on that - PM me for more? Sure, temperature is not the only factor, but virtually every source points out heat as a key reason for the failures you've mentioned.

This means that with insufficient cooling like air and water in higher occurrence, the lifespan of capacitors is actually much shorter than 2-phase immersion cooling with more uniform cooling. You might be able to generate sufficient air flow for maybe the first row of mining shelves, but because of the already pre-heated air, the subsequent shelves might not be cooled sufficiently and exprience hot spots. Even for the first shelves you might have hot spots already (round fan, square shelves). The US Army Research Laboratory explains this in further detail and that 2-phase cooling provides uniform temperature, as well less thermal stress on components and PCB.

Water-cooling? Even worse since some omit fans completely for water cooling ASICs only - have you ever seen any water block cooling capacitors? As mentioned earlier, Bitcoin mining hardware manufacturers noticed that with increasing current, it's actually their power components which now emit a lot of heat. Even if caps may not radiate heat themselves that much, the radiating heat to adjacent components and via PCB would still cause higher temperatures. But with 2-phase immersion cooling, the temperature can be fixed to e.g. 49C or even 34C, depending on which liquid used. Excess energy is converted into vapor - similar like that you will never be able to grill a chicken and get crispy skin in boiling water since the water temperature will never exceed its boiling point.

Then on draining the liquid, etc. even if a cap should fail: How do you know that there are no constant cleaning mechanisms already included in the DataTank systems? Again, pure false conjecture without any sources.


90% of all women are pregnant - until it's revealed that the observation was made in the maternity ward. Check my earlier posts. I have referenced a scientific study on data centers with creeping corrosion as problem and have personal contacts at Baidu and Tencent who can back this up. Bring me a counter study on Chinese data centers, until then that's again a false claim without proof.

Well, did you know that the US military has been using 2-phase cooling for electronics for more than 50 years already? They are using it for high reliabilty cooling of mission-critical electronics in vehicles, aircrafts and ships. Some flourocarbons are still under strategic export control, because the US military wants to restrict the use of it, e.g. excluding countries like Iran. Their exact applications are slightly different to Allied Control's, but it's still 2-phase cooling of electronics. You will just not be able to read a lot about that in public. Again, this doesn't mean that it hasn't been researched and used extensively for many decades already. But yes, cost was definitely a major factor with low density hardware why it didn't take off for the commercial market before. This is different now with increasingly high density hardware, since the fluid costs broken down per board comes down a lot.

This is an excerpt of a study from the US Army Research Laboratory:

"At the same time, however, increasing power density directly exacerbates the task of managing waste heat while staying within acceptable temperature limits for these components; new generation electronic systems are producing multiple kilowatts of waste heat with projected future device level heat fluxes upwards of 1000 W/cm² [...]

However, new power-dense electronic systems are further increasing waste heat and presenting great challenges to the capabilities of conventional air and single-phase liquid cooling systems. Considering strictly air cooling, the effect of higher heat flux electronics is larger, heavier, costlier heat sinks and fans to compensate for insufficient convective performance. The effect is equally dramatic with single-phase liquid cooling, with higher heat fluxes requiring larger coolant flow rates to sufficiently cool the system devices [...]

A two-phase system has several potential advantages over a standard single-phase liquid cooling system. First, a fluid’s latent heat of vaporization has a fundamental limit that can be two orders of magnitude larger than the specific sensible heat of single-phase liquid cooling. Thus, the boiling effect provides the possibility of increased heat absorption per unit volume of fluid and higher heat acquisition effectiveness (i.e., the amount of heat absorbed by a unit of flow relative to its maximum theoretical capacity)." - pretty much exactly what I've claimed in earlier posts. Why would the US military choose 2-phase immersion cooling for high powered mission critical electronics over air and water cooling where utmost reliability is required?

I can already foresee that you will feverishly try to come up with something new and either incorrect or unrelated, only waiting for it to be dispelled again like the many other wrong points already. I admire your persistence - seriously, do you get paid for that? I hope so, because with every single won argument which I backed up with sources and dispelled one of yours, you are actually promoting immersion cooling more and strengthening it for other readers than doing it harm. This thread would probably already have moved to page 2 until the next update or occasional post, but now it's always among the Top 10 or so. Thanks.

Sixsigma - 3

Lambchop - 0

Well duh!  Oddly enough, this data is collected in respect to capacitors exposed to air, not Novec.  To be more explicit, it doesn't suggest that soaking capacitors in Novec or chilled donkey piss will extend MTBF.  With no published data re. electrolytic cap MTBF in Novec 7000-series fluids available, it's nonsensical to assume that a cap will live as long in cool Novec as it will in cool air, the environment for which it was designed.  For someone so fond of studies, you certainly have trouble interpreting them, and a lot to learn about controls :)


Does your DataTank system have the ability to filter out electrolytes from Novec?  Feel free to expand, but try to keep it terse...


The maker of extraordinary claims is the one who must provide collaborating evidence.  You have provided none.  Personal accounts, "I talked to a d00d who said an alien anal probed him," doesn't constitute such evidence.  Lrn to science pl0x.


Electronics specifically designed for such cooling.  The US army has also purchased multi-thousand dollar toilet seats, and experimented with using bats as vectors for dispersing incendiaries over Japan...

http://s30.postimg.org/6upu1ppgh/Capture.jpg

...We're a wealthy nation, with a military not entirely averse to lulzy eccentricities.  We can afford it 8)

http://nimg.sulekha.com/sports/original700/2008-8-8-11-37-56-6fbc88301f8a40fbbd62f499f64cf227-6fbc88301f8a40fbbd62f499f64cf227-2.jpg


Please try to be concise.  The shotgun approach you seem to favor is getting tiresome.
ty

The studies are very clear: Higher temperatures -> capacitors will fail faster. The Army Research Laboratory confirms 2-phase cooling does not lead to any hot spots like with air cooling: "Along with the other previously mentioned potential benefits of two-phase cooling, this can provide a uniform heat flux and temperature across the electronics", while the previous other quote mentioned heat shields etc. So argue against the high temperature correlation to failure rate at first, because that is pretty much a well-studied fact.

The US military has performed many long-term studies on 2-phase immersion cooling, but not all are public. More evidence below. One public study I know is a 3M engineer who has completely immersed a CRT TV in fluid and it was still working after 10 years. Not much of statistical significance. But the two mining clusters of Allied Control were running without ANY SINGLE of your mentioned capacitor issues. Literally in the hundred thousands of capacitors running non-stop (equally high number of observations).

Without any study on your side, you can simply not claim that MTBF is shorter. Your claim has as much merit as that if you buy a lottery ticket that you will definitely win the big jackpot. It may be within the theoretical range of possibilities, but since you simply make a wild claim and can't prove it, it's therefore again, a pure false conjecture.


You asked for it: Yes.


That's why I have provided a data center study which wasn't even limited to China, but showed creep corrosion even with banks, ISPs, etc. You failed to notice it for the third time or so. But I'm refraining like 2112 to call people illiterate - I just don't think that anyone deserves that. So it's maybe deliberately omitting/ignoring the earlier referenced study just to desperately try to win the argument? The personal accounts are only backup thrown in for free like candy at the reception desk.

But what you have not provided yet are any sources to dispel my claims. You just simply make a false and unfounded claim. Again, pure false conjecture.


Yes, and not every experiment is useful. But 2-phase cooling has been successfully implemented in UAV drones. Global Hawks are in service since 2005 and Predators since "early 1990s" already. Sounds a bit more than just an experiment to me. This shows as well that drones in service using 2-phase cooling have a much longer service record than you might have expected. Try arguing against that with your capacitor point.


You see, it's sometimes necessary to make a claim wholesome, back it up with reliable sources, etc. to make it strong. I'm not sure whether you read my posts completely, but it appears that you at least don't read the referenced sources carefully - otherwise you would not come again with creep corrosion data center and still not being able to provide any proof. You really like avoiding providing anything to substantiate your arguments, because you simply do not seem to have that - exactly that's the reason why I can knock out your unfounded/wrong claims so easily. This time was shorter, right? Thanks to you I had the opportunity to build my argumentation base already and can now more conveniently refer back to already written stuff. You are proud contributor to a 2-phase cooling FAQ dispelling myths, promoting the technology more with every single post.

ORLY?  Please elaborate on the process used, and the types of electrolytes it is capable of removing/neutralizing.  Here, feel free to be as expansive as you wish :)
ty

*Though do try to keep your reply focused.

I would really like to do that to show off, especially because we have worked very hard on our cleaning system and are kind of proud - but we are preparing to protect it. So until then, we can't reveal any details on that to the public yet (basic procedure). If you like, then I can provide you the contact to our law firm with the relevant US attorney to vouch for that personally.

You could as well make an offer and buy it. It's up to you then to publish it here if you are so keen on it. It won't be cheap though. Ask for any mining hardware manufacturer to give you their ASIC mask because you don't believe their performance claims - similar story. Building a small scale experimental 2-phase immersion cooling system is one thing. Building it commercially feasible for heavy duty industrial use is another - that's where the key expertise sits and why 3M is so keen on working with Allied Control, since systems they have worked on were more experimental or one-off only, without continuous operation for long time in large scale - the military has such applications, too.

So I assume that the non-reply to the US Army Research Laboratory study and the successful use in UAV drones, clearly stating the cooling superiority and mission-critical long-term reliability of 2-phase immersion cooling over air and water cooling in high density electronic applications (you claimed the contrary before), can be assumed as you having no counter-argument with sources any more, and therefore admitting to it as key benefit? Let me return the favor: Please keep your reply focused - A clear Yes or No, if No then prove it with sources. No distraction on this one.

Lol, "we have it, but can't tell you because secrit" :D  Try harder, this one's been pretty much played out here on Bitcointalk.

Re. US army:  phase change cooling works exceptionally well, it worked for thousands of years, it takes place every time you splash some water on a hot rock.  It worked surprisingly well in hit and miss engines of the early 1900s, which simply allowed the coolant (water) to boil away.  The physics are not in question here.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/36GGbpxxFqs/hqdefault.jpg

OTOH, extrapolating from this that common electrolytic capacitors would function reliably is pure nonsense.

The question is what is being cooled, and with what fluid.  US Army used purpose-designed components in vehicles which were to be torn down, tested and serviced at short, regular intervals--approximately the opposite of what is required of a Bitcoin mining farm.

Would somebody please make an executive summary of the current trolling (200-300 words)? Thanks.

Sure.  LeanSixSigma is trying to sell the rubes of this forum shares of a pricey 40-footer full of unicorn tears.
He claims that it will solve the fundamental problem faced by Bitcoin miners:  "creeping corrosion."  You do not know about this creeping corrosion because the miners are too proud to talk about it, but LeanSixSigma knows it's there, and it's super srs.

I don't think it solves a problem that is currently plaguing miners.  However, with ASIC development inevitably slowing as technological limitations begin being reached, corrosion could become an issue as mining equipment stays profitable for longer.  Exploring this angle couldn't be a bad thing, although I don't think we're there yet.  Thinking that development will continue to make miners useless every year forever would not be smart.

Thanks - so that's settled once and for all. NotLambchop acknowledges that 2-phase immersion cooling works exceptionally well.


Check with Northrop Grumman - there is a white paper confirming that 2-phase cooling promotes the use of "commercial grade electronics", specifically referring to tantalum and ceramic capacitors, where otherwise more durable components have to be used. And regardless of that - once again, you are conveniently omitting my other claim with hundreds of thousands of completely normal capacitors in long-term use in two large scale industrial, 2-phase immersion cooled Bitcoin mines. Not a single capacitor failed. Not an extrapolation, but actual real-world proof. This combined is still stronger than your wild and completely unfounded claim pulled out of thin air that capacitors have a lower MTBF under 2-phase cooling.


Not true. I have never claimed that it was the fundamental problem faced by Bitcoin miners in general. To me that's only a potential side effect when looking at the open air facilities - the key argument on more cost-efficient cooling has been already won above.

I have even posted that there are many other Bitcoin miners not facing that problem (proper building, better air, etc.), but that there is a risk of that occurring for open air facilities, next to other pollution, dust and humidity (which was again omitted), having potential effect on reliability. I have never ever claimed that I know for sure it's there and posted that for clarification earlier, but only that there could be the possibility/risk, supported by the supplied reliable studies on similar or even better scenarios (data centers and other buildings). So a logical reasoning would be that worse scenarios (complete open sides, exposed to nature, high air flow supplying with more contaminants), might have a bigger effect on reliability, and only what the consequences could be "IF" it happens. Again, falsely claiming things which I never wrote. Looks to me like grasping for straws because you're running out of arguments.


NotLambchop and others made various unfounded claims, trying to question the sense of 2-phase immersion cooling. But essentially all claims made so far are either apparent irrelevant diversions or just simply outright wrong claims. No reliable source has been provided so far from their side to support their arguments. I have on the other hand provided multiple scientific studies to back up my claims and those could still not be dispelled. Btw.: It's interesting that NotLambchop didn't care to deny when I "seriously" asked whether he gets paid for these posts - I would have jumped on it and denied clearly if it wasn't the case. If that was true then it might shed another light on the motivation/background of trolling here.

But what counts most to me is that NotLambchop eventually doesn't deny the findings of the US Army Research Laboratory on overall more reliable and cost-efficient cooling than air and water cooling for high powered electronics, and agreed that 2-phase cooling "works exceptionally well". It's the key and main argumentation line. Everything else are just less relevant branches/forks of side-arguments.

Lol, so what's your area of expertise, if you don't know that tantalum and ceramic caps are not electrolytic capacitors being discussed here?  Tantalum caps are much more expensive per mF, and ceramics are only good for pico range.  Learn to electronics.  
BTW, stop equating phase change cooling with Novec.  The mill engines I've mentioned are boiling plain old water.
Flaunting your ignorance may feel liberating, but it's absolutely painful to watch :-\

Correct. Solving longevity (>1-2 years) problems of equipment in the current environment is a bad allocation of time and investment capital. Competitive edge is realized in reliance (which includes sourcing electronic components) and deployment speed. And based on what DataTank mining is proposing that is a strong point about them.

The discussion about phase conversion based cooling is really a discussion about how to get the heat transported into the environment effectively. The current strategy to put equipment into a wind tunnel only scales so far... there is a point at which you get diminishing returns (av. air temp goes up, inc. air speed reduces conductance) - it would be interesting to know what the theoretical limits of air cooling are. With those limits one can get an estimate of the minimum real estate cost per kW hashing power.

That's exactly why I have posted: "regardless of that - once again, you are conveniently omitting my other claim with hundreds of thousands of completely normal capacitors in long-term use in two large scale industrial, 2-phase immersion cooled Bitcoin mines. Not a single capacitor failed. Not an extrapolation, but actual real-world proof." - it is the relevant argument here which you can still not counter.

I've posted my area of expertise already, but we know nothing from you except your experience as five year old fiddling with resistors and "playing with scraps of wire I stripped with my little teeth".


I was referring to the very same US Army Research Laboratory study and it actually analyzes single phase water cooled systems (water inlet temperatures): "Most silicon power electronics have a full-power operating temperature limit of about 125 °C [...] These high inlet temperatures limit the electronic device temperature increase to only 25–45 °C above inlet temperature, reducing electronic cooling potential and requiring exceptional cooling performance to dissipate high-heat-fluxes and prevent overheating." and goes on to compare with a superior 2-phase cooling system which "was implemented using HFE-7100 dielectric coolant fluid to safely dissipate 150-200W/cm2" - very comparable or even higher than most low nm crypto mining ASICs, incl. commercial GPUs for Scrypt. And that's by far not the limit yet.

So yes, they were using in that particular test single phase water cooled systems vs. Novec 7100 and found 2-phase cooling to be superior with significantly less pumped water in secondary stage (less cooling electricity = less costs) without letting the chips overheat. No conjecture, referenced proof.

It doesn't matter whether you claim that you only meant water 2-phase cooling is more effective and not Novec. It's the same physical principle generically for ALL 2-phase cooling systems and have already quoted that earlier out of the same report:



So let me get this straight: IPO Magic never posted anything about "mill engines" (= military engines), but NotLambchop did instead. I've checked every single post of IPO Magic in this thread to confirm. I've already thought about that possibility, but now we've got clear evidence: That means that the person behind IPO Magic and NotLambchop is one and the same and is deliberately using multiple handles to create the false illusion of multiple posters bringing up arguments against 2-phase cooling, one of which not denying to get paid for posting. That's just very low and unethical if one needs to resort to such tactics and can still not make any significant progress. At least to me, any kind of credibility of these two posters is pretty much confirmed to be down the drain with this (likely stating the obvious for other more credible posters who had the honor to be insulted by IPO Magic and NotLambchop).

What is it?


Is this a published study?  Title? ISBN? Link?


Lol, Google "mill engine" to  savor the full extent of your ignorance :D


Wait, you're saying NotLambchop is a sock?  But if Lambchop is a sock, how could NotLambchop also be a...  Ohhhh....  He probably thought he was so cunning with that "Not", but there's no fooling a clever feller like you!  No sir!

http://s27.postimg.org/tydsznokj/Capture.jpg

*I've been accused of being Mircea Popescu (Romanian exchange owner), Eduardo de Castro (HashFast), crumbs (of Active Mining fame), MikeMikeMike and Puppet (PETA), and countless other bogeymen.
If it helps you to think me any or all of the above, or that I'm being paid for my posts, I won't ruin it for you.  Makes you that much more amusing to deal with.
ty

What is the score now?

Yeah, he comes up with some arbitrary problems he seems to deem to hard to overcome and claims the guys haven´t thought the system through.

Obviously nobody is going to hand him the exact plans to build his own, so he is spamming the forum and flinging shit like an ape.

I hope he remembers his words when in 3-6 months everything is set up and working fine.

Having everything "set up and working fine" tells me nothing about improving MTBF, commercial viability (err... unless you consider selling unicorn dreams to ignorant bitcoiners "proof of viability"), or usefulness of this Goldbergian contraption (Rube Goldberg's machines did exactly what they were designed to do).
That said, I'm guessing nothing (other than a few burnt "investors") would come of this.

As far as me wanting to scope out DataTank's secret sauce?  What DataTank is doing has been done multiple times before, there's nothing mysterious about the basic process.  It hasn't been shelved because of insurmountable technical problems, but simply because cost/benefit makes no sense.

As far as complexity?  This is a functional phase-change cooling setup.  Not rocket surgery.  Shell out $350 for a gallon of unicorn tears, and have a blast! :D

https://i.imgur.com/TWZgMCK.jpg  http://s16.postimg.org/ir7ba63ud/Capture.jpg
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7216.msg7644407#msg7644407
(it is wikid fun)

As posted before already, we have built multiple profitable and large scale 2-phase immersion cooled Bitcoin mines and received various media coverage to prove it.


Look for my earlier post on why it didn't take off before: The fluid price as ratio over low density hardware was not so good in the past. But especially cryptocurrency mining hardware has changed that and it's still continuously increasing. Further, as pointed out earlier, the price for e.g. tens of thousands of pounds is different - another key advantage as 3M Technology Partner vs. others. As mentioned earlier, we have set up profitable mines = cost/benefit made sense.

Yes, the basic principle is simple and that's why we like it so much. But again, google for Dunning-Kruger effect: Go ahead and build one yourself without losing too much fluid. Or apply for a position as professional football player - the basic principle/rules are simple and it looks easy on TV, right?

Experimental and commercially viable systems are two different things. We have invested a lot of money into R&D and many tens of thousands of hours over years to get this far and have therefore an immense head start (like fluid loss prevention). 3M chose to work with us as official 3M Technology Partner for 2-phase immersion cooling technology, since we were able to build multiple commercially viable large scale commercial systems.

Having said that, we think it's good that there are more enthusiasts jumping on it and congratulated them already. smracer recognized the superior 2-phase cooling abilities, confirming what I've mentioned earlier. So at the same time you are actually making a point that there are more people believing in this technology. Thanks! And once again I appreciate that you give me the opportunity to provide any interested reader here with more info on why we think that we have a competitive advantage.

***

I try to keep this short, since it's OT - but I think it's beneficial to this thread enough to post it to address the troll problem here:

Guess I searched a bit around like jimmothy did, and found another alt account "Ask Ken About Love". That account together with IPO Magic and NotLambchop (and apparently a few others) troll almost exclusively threads in the securities group. You use multiple of those alt accounts within the same thread in alternation to apply the same false illusion of multiple persons having the same message. There are many other posters who got pissed off in very same fashion - so really good call on jimmothy to open a thread on that: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=677833.0

Will it help to discourage you from using those tactics? No idea, maybe not. But whenever you post something, we can point out this troll alert for newbies to this and other thread and the entire credibility of your post will be questioned, no matter what you write. It could be like some kind of DOS defense, where the effort to dispel your unfounded claims will be minimized for frequent and low effort repetition from our side.

Any updates since the last update of 23 Jun 2014?

The opportunity here is really interesting but what are some of potential projection on the returns?

VC's would expect a better than "average" return on this sort of investment.  Distinguished Innovator Lecture - Adam Grosser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q1a3UsFQ_U)

I know with mining it is a crap shoot of sorts given the price of BTC etc but the margins right now are small and returns for mining are very low even on a massive scale is that not correct?

----

OT - I think this troll and his alter egos are actually very good for this security offering.

1. It shows the professionalism of the team and further provides mountains of evidence to support the claims of Data Tank Mining.
2. It shows clearly that the design implications for chips and boards is increasing density and we are already seeing the limits of heat sinks.
3. It correctly questions the viability of air, oil or water blocks moving forward and exposes the weaknesses in the other systems.
4. It attacks the weakest point in the Data Tank Mining offering that cost to cost comparisons of DTM to Massive Chicken Coop (MCC) designs.
5. It is a comparison of apples to oranges, MCC to DTM, but we want to have an itemized line for line of these and a pretty spreadsheet of it.

What is your plan if Havelock disappears off the map? A fallback needs to be in place for this.

+1

It would be nice to know if shareholder records will be kept outside of havelock, as well as a backup plan for a catastrophic failure of the exchange.

He has exhausted every avenue now and DTM guys have skillful and without malice answered everything to my satisfaction. He and his posse of alts are on ignore. I am more keen on the what DTM thinks will be the returns for investors? Give we all know the margins for mining are slim even in massive farms is there realistically any potential return for basically being VC funders without the benefits of 'ownership'?

Not sure how much of Capacitor electrolyte it can filter, but the article entitled "Bitcoin 2-Phase Immersion Cooling and the Implications for High Performance Computing (http://www.electronics-cooling.com/2014/02/bitcoin-2-phase-immersion-cooling-and-the-implications-for-high-performance-computing/)" mentions Carbon Filters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_carbon). Apparently those are good for filtering a lot of organic compounds.

Edit: For ionic compounds, Silica Gel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_gel) should work. It would not target them directly, but rather pull the water out of solution. Presumably, the ionic compounds would then precipitate out.

Edit3: 3M's "Open Bath Immersion Cooling" video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivVoANqFBuY) mentions both the carbon filter and silica gel at about 31:35. They also explain how to avoid losing unicorn tears during venting or maintenance.

Not sure if you have the full context.  OP has made a claim that DataTank prevented "creeping corrosion," a problem that hasn't been publicly reported by a single bitcoin miner to date.  I pointed out that while possibly solving this problem, the Novec cooling solution could be introducing a few of its own, which have yet to come to light.  Electrolytic capacitor impregnation (Novec fluids are commonly used as solvents) and potential difficulties in dealing with both capacitor degradation and catastrophic failure were cited as an example.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655464.msg7637984#msg7637984

TL;DR:  There's plenty of high-tech VC money looking for ground, there is no need for legitimate corporation to peddle their gear to punters through unlicenced Panamanian exchanges.
Submersion cooling is as old as the hills.  Even the "DataTank" idea is unoriginal--Google "Green Revolution Container."

http://s30.postimg.org/iyyxwbwxd/Capture.jpg

This is my biggest concern as well, and I'm sure we are not the only ones in here. Looking back at the big mining farm investements that came up over the last couple of years, I think there isn't a single one that turned a profit for it's shareholders. So whilst this venture sounds really good on paper I remain sceptical about turning a profit or even getting ROI.

I am pretty sure that most big mining farms have in fact returned a profit for the investors.

See the very first big mining farm, the 500TH mine at megabigpower, it returned full bitcoin profit only half a year after the start of operations.

What you are basically saying is that bitcoin mining isn´t profitable?

What he is basically saying is Bitcoin mining is unprofitable for investors.  The "securities issuers" do just fine :)

Evidence.

That is what I want. Real numbers or projections based on data not just what Dave said off hand or conjecture... you can't rail against the troll and then turn around and do the same and throw out that big mines are profitable. Remember that was then and this is now. Different situation when Mega and others set up initial 6 to 12 months ago and now. Especially with a more competitive market out there than in 2013 or even April or May this year given what I saw at the HK Inside Bitcoin conference.

This where either as a VC you challenge them to produce the numbers and estimates or you as an investor go out and do the homework.

This is where I want to see if this group has done some numbers on this and give us their range or best estimate. Why should I bother putting in my BTC or $$$ given the high risks involved and no number presented. I am not going to compare what other mining fabricators have done to the community good or bad but you need to have some sort of projection. Has that been presented?

Are we the ones who are putting up the first coins to simply pay for the development of this tech while others reap the rewards in a second or third generation variant? This has been the unfortunate model in the past and since there is no "ownership" in the venture here just shares of the mining then it becomes less interesting on the face of it. So you need to be convinced with some sort of estimates or projections for buying watts (shares) in these dunk tanks.

I am confident these guys are on the level and are honest brokers but we need to have numbers to determine whether or not we should risk our money on this or just buy some BTC or another ALT that might be as risky with potentially a much greater return.

What can I expect for my say 1 unit of capacity?

That way I can compare it to other opportunities and make a calculated decision right?

---

My apologies if I have skimmed over these notes somewhere or if that has been stated here. Lot of wasted effort on the troll side to get to the crux of the matter. Is it worth buying 1 unit or 100 units of capacity? That is what investors want to gauge.

There is obviously no possible way to produce evidence for future earnings in bitcoin mining.

The only thing you could try and prove is that you have a price advantage in deploying and running your hardware, which should therefore allow you to profit more than other mine operators.

Where did I say PROVE?

I said give evidence.

You state they made a profit... ok where is the evidence? Anyhow this is all off topic and doesn't really matter to this security. My concern is this offering and how can one measure it? Are we not just better off buying cloud hashing? Buying say altcoins or BTC? I want to have a good reason to put money into this technology based on projections about this project not other projects. I am seriously interested in this security I believe the technology is the future of mining but is it too early or too low a return given the risk? Show me it is worth it and I will invest. I am asking the DTM guys for insight here not the fanbois or trolls.

----

This is for the DTM guys to answer if they can.

Question is what are the DTM projections should someone buy 10 units of capacity?

You prove something by giving evidence for your claim, therefore the two words can be used with equivalent meaning.

The DTM guys (aka antirack... etc.) have given numerous arguments why they believe this operation will succeed.

The basis of all these arguments can be found in the prospectus of the asset aswell as in the first page of this thread.

They can certainly not be expected to post the same numbers on every page of this thread, so please look through the thread yourself in order to come to your own conclusion.

Issuers are emailed shareholder lists multiple times each day.

Right. Units buyers will in fact collectively own income from DTM's product.
Current view of DTM insiders on potential profitability would be highly appreciated.

@DTM
Is everything on track for the IPO tomorrow?

Announcement in regards to the offering will be made tomorrow July 7th.

Bump: What is the chip purchase timeline?

what is the exact time? i.e. 9:00 am, July 7?

Noted looking out for an update sometime today then 7th on server time.

Update 07 Jul 2014:

We are pleased to report several positive developments.

Offering on Havelock:

•   DataTank Mining has received enough funding via direct investments in the pre-offering phase to proceed with the business plan.

•   Offering of single DataTank Mining units on HavelockInvesetments.com has been cancelled for the time being. The internal platform (control panel) will be developed in parallel to the initial DataTank systems.

•   The prospectus will be updated in the near future to reflect latest information and further changes. Most significant changes are that DTMA units (capacity and mining hardware) won't be necessary in its current form. This is a step towards reducing investment risks and making DataTank Mining a more predictable venture. DTMA and investment in future hardware for future deployment has caused confusion that can be avoided (we are working with DTMA direct investors to convert units).

•   Direct investments into capacity units are always welcome by emailing to admin@datatank-mining.com. Please note that until the internal platform is available, a minimum purchase of 10,000 units (edit: 100kW).

•   We apologize for the dust to the community and to HavelockInvesetments.com, please bear with us to make this not only the most efficient mining venture, but also to raise the bar for safe mining investments. We plan to make this as predictable as possible for participants and partners.

Other Information:

•   Production for DataTank No. 1 has already commenced and AM BE200 hardware is the hardware of choice for initial deployment. We are currently evaluating if Scrypt hardware will be available in time for at least a partial deployment to use some spare capacity.

•   We keep working with ASIC manufactures for their current and future chips to make them available as immersion blades. We are also offering capacity in DataTank systems and prototyping runs to existing and new ASIC manufacturers to get their hardware immersion ready.

•   We will keep working on hardware support, deployment locations, and other partnerships while the initial DataTank container systems are built for deployment.

•   We would like to re-emphasize that DataTank systems and the operation expenses include everything required for mining, including electrical switchgear, transformers, power supplies, cooling, rents, 24/7 on-site support staff, iPhone control panel, and anything else that is needed for operation. There are _no_ other costs.

•   Reselling of ASIC hardware for air cooling users will be possible. Please note that immersion blades are based on a dual design for immersion and air cooling (1U form factor or tube-like) and we encourage manufacturers to follow our design guidelines.
https://www.googledrive.com/host/0ByWHHc0u_thNT293cTl6OXBVZms/AirCooling_01.pdf
https://github.com/blockerupter/AM_Tube/blob/master/complete_set.png
https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0ByWHHc0u_thNdzB3c2hvVzJkcTQ

•   If reselling for air-cooling is indeed in demand by Q4 2014 or Q1 2015, DTM will make available at-cost DIY reselling packages that consist of inexpensive cardboard boxes, thermal paste, heatsinks and fans, with a compartment for immersion blades. DTM will also offer shipping services at a transparent small fee to unit holders to liquidate their hardware (with or without air cooling kit).

Please also follow DataTank Mining on Twitter to receive updates:
http://www.twitter.com/DataTankMining

We also posted a couple of videos recently showing several chips in action and will keep posting progress reports and pictures frequently:
http://www.vimeo.com/datatank/

So there is no chance now for small investors to get in on this?

On the contrary. Small investors can get in once the control panel is online and the first systems are being deployed.

In other words: the larger investors are paying for the small investors to get in with less risk.

It will take a while, but the wait will be shorter = more predictable investment. Everything else still applies.

Patience is all that is required. In the meantime you can watch it happen without the need to risk your Bitcoins on it.

This literally developed during the past few hours, so this is also very new to me.

Will there still be an IPO on havelock or will everything be done on your system?

Can you share with us how many containers were sold?

So DTM basically raised enough money during direct investment to cover for at least 5 whole shipping containers.

Do I understand this correctly?

Will capacity be available for sale once the management interface is online?
-yes, management interface will be available around time of deployment

Will those units then be built to order or are you producing more than originally sold?

Will the smallest unit of investment then be ~ 1/400th of a tank? (As I understand around 400 blades will fit into one tank)


I really hope that small investors will get the opportunity to buy capacity, as originally promoted by DTM.

This is obviously a long-term effort by DTM, and I hope the production goes well and we will see some finished units soon.


I for one was really hoping to get the chance of investing into this, lets hope capacity will be for sale in 3-6 months.

DataTank, antirack

Were You able to overclock sp10 and ae200 in Your fluid more than them with air cooling?

Is there anyone willing to collect the small investments to buy one tank capacity from DTM?

@tinyfox266:  Sure.  Send me your money.

@havelock:  Second thoughts? EDIT: Lol, gone :D

@horcoff:  A bit, but not as much as with Ed Trcie's Liquid Nitrogen Overclocking (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179747.0) :-\

@everyone else:  In keeping with the submersion cooling theme,

http://s28.postimg.org/sy2bpjpal/pool_s_closed.jpg
ty

How can i make sure that the money is used to buy the capacities of DTM? And how to declare the ownership of the capacities bought?

Thanks! 

He isn´t serious. He is trying to prove some point aka "this is a bad investment...blablabla...."

@,@

@tinyfox266:  I'm super serious.  Send me your money, will explain later.

@Collider: Y U B hatin'?

Also with less reward...

That's what I was thinking.   Let the big boys play......you guys sit on the bench.

it seems that you don't bullish on this business

^The failure is essential to my pass through.  If the business didn't "fail," I'd have to return your money + profit.  As it stands now, I can just...
http://s17.postimg.org/60vd33q67/vanishomer.gif
...and no hard feelings :)

I can't seem to find the price for 1 unit (or 10k for that matter).

Is that only available privately or are the costs known?

The costs are estimated in the prospectus, basically 0.01kW is *7$ for capacity only, and around 2.5*that for capacity plus miners.

1 tank aka the minimum amount for direct investment (~100kW) is therefore ~$70k for capacity alone.


BTW, why is one tank billed as being 100kW according to the statement
It should really be at least ~200kW per tank....

10,000 units are 100kW. Has been corrected in the update.

These thoughts are incorrect, as this phase is not producing income for anyone and you are not missing out.

1. There is no reward in this phase as no mining will happen. Current investors are considering this long-term, with the patience to accept this fact.

2. Investments in units are in DTMB only, no DTMA units have been sold/accepted and DTMA won't exist in the originally proposed form (please see update and wait for new prospectus).

3. After initial mining systems/containers are built, the production pipeline is established and multiple systems can be produced weekly (site will be made ready too).

4. During the run-up of initial deployment, hardware (in form of a replacement for DTMA) will be made available, to existing and new investors, including as small as 1 single unit.

This truly makes it more predictable for current and new investors in the future: When DTM scales up, more hardware will be ready, first systems/containers are either produced our en-route, first US site will be ready, our HK location will have hot tanks (vs. prototypes) available for tech demonstration, and so on.

We've had some inquiries by groups for direct investment into tanks, I'll check in the next few days if they are still looking for more members to join in or if they changed their mind.

Could I please get some clarification on what all this means for small buyers in terms or price / capacity?  ie; how much will a single DTMA unit now cost, what hashing capacity will it represent, and what will the OpEx costs be?

Another question is; what will we be 'buying'?  Will this be a purchase of mining gear, rental, shares representing earning capacity?  What kind of resale/onsale options will there be?

Also, I realise that this is very early days, and you may not be able to give me an answer at this point, but do you have any ideas on a ballpark timeframe for units to be ready for sale?  I assume it will now be quicker than the originally estimated 3-6 months?

Thanks.

Any chance of getting a reply to my question from someone officially representing DataTank Mining?

Apologies for the delayed reply.

While you can still take a look at the example DTMA Revenue Forecast and Profit Model on page 15 out of our Data Tank Mining Ops Prospectus for unit costs, hashing capacity and OpEx as general reference, we are currently only accepting investments of at least 10,000 units of DTMB or more. We have mentioned earlier that it would be better for unit buyers if we don't raise any money for mining hardware under DTMA units yet.

There will be another funding round later, specifically only for the mining hardware at the then best available efficiency and price, instead of committing to hardware now already and letting it lose on value with every difficulty increase and upcoming new hardware releases competing on price with older hardware. This would then essentially be like a DTMA unit if added on top of the DTMB.

Page 9 of our prospectus lines out what you are going to purchase. It is essentially purchasing capacity, which can be traded later as well:
http://www.datatank-mining.com/files/DataTank_Mining_Ops_Prospectus.pdf

If you are interested, then please use the contact information on our prospectus on page 16 for direct purchase of 10,000 untis of DTMB or more.

Thanks for the reply.  So the pricing per GHS in the prospectus is still valid?  I guess it depends on the exact pricing of the mining gear at the time of purchase tho?

Also, given the recent fully funded first stage, do you have any updated estimates as to when DTMA units will go on sale?

Yes, the figures in the prospectus are only an estimation. No one can accurately predict what the exact pricing and performance data of mining hardware will be even only several weeks down the road.

We might be able to accelerate. But to be on the safe side, it's better to still refer to the same time frames mentioned earlier.

Please keep in mind as well that we will not really offer DTMA units as one single option as per earlier definition in the prospectus. We are currently only offering DTMB for pure capacity, and then another funding round (e.g. DTMH for "H"ardware) only for mining hardware alone at a later time.

If someone buys only the mining hardware (e.g. DTMH) alone, then those mining hardware unit holders would obviously still have to pay DTMB unit holders the 20% mining revenue as their hosting fee as described in the prospectus - this is the main incentive of buying DTMB units.

However, with DTMB unit holders buying mining hardware (e.g. DTMH) on top, you could say that they pay themselves the 20% hosting fee and would therefore still end up in a similar high profit model as described for DTMA in the prospectus. Essentially, if you are interested in DMTA, the current path has to go through DTMB first. With any other path you might end up with less than the DTMA forecasts in the prospectus due to paying the 20% hosting fee.

It's been a month.  Any updates on this venture, and when it will be available to individuals?

They don't need individuals right now. They found some last minute investors.

Any news you guys would like to share
https://i.imgur.com/vdEsVZr.jpg

You realize that's a shop, right?  The rest of the containers are ordinary refrigerated 40-footers.

Each container is supposed to be 2PH/s, so only the obvious one is implied to be a datatank. Unless you think  most of the network is in that picture

Not sure what the pic is supposed to imply.  If the containers were actual 2PH/s units waiting to be shipped, they still would represent exactly 0PH/s, and 0% of the network.
They're clearly not hooked up, so not mining.
But I meant to say that the container on the crane is a shop.

It  indeed seems photoshoped. Anyway any updates @datatank?! Whats with all the fuss twitting a shopped image?

Why all those obviously photoshopped pictures?  ::)

well, at the time I posted, I thought it was funny, but probably it was the wine that made me think that. I liked the thought of an autonomous mining megafarm, roaming around outside territorial waters.

My picture isn't photoshopped, I found it on the internet. These are standard 40 ft. HC reefers. Like the ones in the tweet.

Haha

A - "What the fuck is that?"

B - "Thats the bitcoin network....."

That's at the container factory in China, where DataTank No. 1 was produced this summer.

https://drive.google.com/a/allied-control.com/folderview?id=0ByWHHc0u_thNMWRpd0QybHBCRzQ&usp=drivesdk&ddrp=1#

Nice, I didn't think it was shopped.

Still, the caption isn't quite right. You still need to plug this into cooling towers right?

Anyway, with the current environment (network hashrate/difficulty, btc price and ASIC options), do you still see profit in running more datatanks? Where are the retail options?

if I buy one of these how much is p&p and will it plug into usb 2.0?

The cooling unit is also a container. It ships separately but goes on top of the DataTank unit. There will be pictures of total systems on site sooner or later.

An interior shot would silence the doubters :)

yea, as close to the chip as possible ^^

These are exciting times for Bitcoin, I eagerly await more images

I am sure there will be plenty of inside and outside pictures when the time comes, until then the focus is building and bringing systems online one by one.

If you haven't seen this before, here's the video of the previous generation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZavKweMrP4

https://twitter.com/DataTankMining/status/543660891015610368
http://www.datatank-mining.com/immersion-cooled-500kw-single-rack-mining-platform/

care to comment?