Bitcoin Forum

the price has to start appreciating really soon, otherwise the massive number of holders will start losing patience, just to mention that in the worst case scenario 95% of all Bitcoins are just hoarded and you can confirm this by just looking to the daily volume across all exchanges and the daily transaction volume excluding the popular addresses,  most of the new users joined because of the quick get rich scheme, posts on this forum and reddit that attack any different opinion or any voice of reason and just talk about how rich you will be if you hold 10 BTC and how this will be after few months is just worrying... well I  can imagine if this wont happen this soon how this people will react...


the merchant adoption overpass the userbase adoption, each day we hear about new stores/companies adding Bitcoin which can be a good sign but only if the userbase is growing at the same or a bigger rate, my wife is doing her diploma about how Bitcoin as payment method would change economy here in Slovenia, in Q&A to a merchant who accepts Bitcoin  (https://www.gsracunalniki.com/)for more than a year he said that the only time clients pay with Bitcoin is around an ATH otherwise no one ask about paying with bitcoin, most of the bitcoiners use the coin as an investment or as a saving method believing that it would appreciate in value over time..... just a look to the thin orderbook of all exchanged combined would reflect the hoarding theory.

Bitcoin would be a good saving mechanism only if the adoption rate will be equal or more than the actual inflation rate (creation rate of coins) which is more than 10.5% a year. so choosing Bitcoin as saving method is as risky or maybe riskier than having fiat in your saving account.

Wow. Just because you decided to sell your coins and not have to work for 2 years, you feel the need to make threads attacking bitcoin so you feel better about your decision? Lulz

did you vote "go fuck your self" ? if you didn't go ahead and do if you feel that way :)

This is how I need to start responding to trolls also.

My answer to the poll: Man, you have lost it.

talking about the risks of hodling bitcoins, and then investing in ltc.

fail.

same goes for Litecoin, in fact investing in Litecoin is 10X riskier, it is insane but I follow the Risk/Reward rule, the riskier the investment can be the bigger the reward usually is.... see most of you are not objective , you are just a bunch of blind investors.

I voted 'We are all aware of the above nothing new.'

Bitcoin is very young and volatile, although promising and interesting it's of course still a very risky investment. Yes, riskier than having fiat in your saving account. But with this higher risk also comes a high reward possibility though, as those who invested early have found out. And it's still early today. Good luck getting any kind of reward from the risk of having fiat in your saving account.

The current inflation rate of Bitcoin is irrelevant knowing that the maximum amount of coins there will ever be is 21 million. It's also logical that merchant adoption rate outstrips user adoption rate for the moment, but don't underestimate the cleverness of merchants to persuade the people to buy with bitcoins if this is clearly in their own interest. I think eventually adoption rate is going to very quickly catch back up to merchant adoption rate as merchants find clever ways to convince the people Bitcoin is simply the best way to pay.

Sorry but I lold at this. Why do you think they decided to hodl? For short time selling? Your logic is flawed. Also, don't underestimate people, it's not like only retards are investing in btc.

Only people who do not believe in the future of bitcoin / cryptocurrencies will scare and sell, but I think that most of the btc holders don't see it that way.

Outstanding Post OP! Keep up the good work! I couldn´t have it done any better! Very subtle but also to the point!
Only retards think that the price couldn´t go to 0 at any given minute! Bitcoin is ultra high risk, and whoever is entering it now will most likely get little to no reward!

If you invest in Litecoin now you may be disappointed short term. Litecoin inflation is high, comparable with bitcoin's in 2011.
So far, due to lack of seller pressure and a pump, bitcoin has (temporarily?) recovered, but I doubt litecoin will do the same.
In 2011 bitcoin dropped from 32$ to 2$, now litecoin may drop from 48$ to 3$ - 4$ if it will experience capitulation.

Bitcoin is the merchant heaven, no charge back, lower fees, no need to risk securing personal documents or information (like doing with credit cards) and most importantly you can accept Bitcoin even if every bank ban you over a political issue or for varying beliefs (wikileaks) but it is still a nightmare for the end user, no protection from fraud (butterfly labs) the wallets are still not there for mass adoption (normal users, non tech savvy) and the only way your money will hold value (even with the 21 million cap) is the continuous mass adoption and the hoarding because the economy simply works as a pyramid scheme.   

So you think all the merchants will be ready to take bitcoin, but no customers will have them or use them? Hmm, let me think and feel ...

I don't, you think that, and I think otherwise, for that reason the merchant adoption is higher than the user adoption this is what I think, and the only way for the user adoption to boost up under these circumstances is the price going up... and really fast, remember that many users joined only because of the bubbles, 2 years ago well not 2 years only a year ago Bitcoin (and Litecoin) had no utility rather than speculative asset (technology), and only because of the price skyrocketing the media was so focused on this subject which brought many new users, now imagine the price going down, or not going down but just being slightly stable for a long time, many new comers will lose faith and even old adopters will start loosing faith, many Bitcoin core developers are posting about their worries at this point.


looking at the votes, I did put "go fuck your self" and "the OP is but hurt" for a reason, many users (35.7%) here has voted for these two options, these implies to them being emotional investors (tards), instead of having some valid argument against mine (a respective and non trollish one) they voted that way, it tells allot about the community.  
  

Ok, a slight misunderstanding. Personally, I think that the bitcoin symbol on all the webshops will make some customers curious, sepecially if they are not 100 % satisfied with their current method of payment.

Every economy and investment works as a pyramid scheme if you want to see it that way. And like I said Bitcoin is young, we need a few more years for the infrastructure to grow and make BTC more safe and easy to get and use. This is not an investment for the impatient and people with weak nerves. Hoarding is just a silly and meaningless term to frame something in a negative light, I don't fall for that crap.

The op has some valid points(that have been rehashed a million times already, but valid none the less)

Is it just me or have this type of postings increased rapidly in frequency lately?

(Now when did I see that before..?)

Go fuck your self and take all shouting bulls and bears along with you.

The Allmighty God Of Boredom unfolded the future to me:

http://image-upload.de/image/BZxZaN/bec146ed39.jpg

This is restrictive.

Hoarders just hold. They won t sell so easily. Shake out are made to take money for those who follow the get rich quick.

And you forgot that we are the just at the begining of the S curve of adoption. When i ask around me, less than 10% has already heard about bitcoin. Even less understand bitcoin. We are going mainstream. That s the only point to remember when you want to sell. I will sell mine only if adoption is reversing.

edit: i voted "we all know that already."

Get rich quick, but not that quick.

Such as?

I looked, couldn't find any.

what is your arguments against my points ? show me the invalidity please... maybe ask your "smart" monkey.

Money has multiple functions, one of them is hoarding (aka saving). Even if Bitcoin had zero merchants and served this hoarding function alone it would be valuable.

Because it is:
   - Decentralised
   - Non-inflationary
   - Easily stored and transferred
   - Anonymous (sort of)
   - you continue...

My patience is infinite. Bitcoin is huge, play the long game.

1- the decentralization is being destroyed a day after day by big mining pools and exchanges and wallet services and all kind of other centralized services.

2- in fact, Bitcoin is a high inflationary currency at this moment (for the next 100 year Bitcoin will be still inflationary), 25 BTC are mined in average of 10 minutes, well in fact it has been 7 minutes for some time now  (https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=)to be accurate, but lets pretend that is 10 min instead so: 150BTCan hour or 3600BTC a day or 1314000BTC a year, yes more than a million Bitcoin... this makes the inflation rate more than 10% a year.

3- not really easily stored, you need to be so careful when dealing or storing bitcoins, many thefts and hacks were going around the last 5 years (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83794.0), many exchanges and services failed because of this, sending looks simple but for a person who is not so tech savvy it looks so complicated a combination of capital/small letters and nembers as an address and change addresses and backups and.... add to that in order for the network to work(transactions being confirmed) miners are needed so there so much energy needed to spend (secure/confirm the validity) a bitcoin.

4- not anonymous, I would say it could offers some kind of privacy if you know how to use it, it sure offers insurance against identity theft but right now if you send me a transaction I could see the history of your transactions and maybe even how much funds you do carry around .... when the coinjoin will be implemented and it starts working as it should or maybe when a good mixer is used this would be a real private, but now it is not anonymous neither private to be honest.

5- what you do you want me to add here ?

There isn't much point in giving any kind of criticism towards bitcoin, when you are speaking to the bitcoin community. Nowadays, the loudest part of the community are mostly desperate grocery clerks and taxi drivers. Bitcoin gives them hope, that maybe, just maybe, they will make something of themselves, and maybe they will finally be someone who is rich and respected (they respect everyone who has money, so they think that everyone would respect them also).
This desperation, is the thing, that makes the majority of the community attack everyone, who question the bitcoin's success. Just look at the replies, most of the people aren't even trying to compose solid arguments against the OP. Most are throwing personal attacks, or they are repeating like parrots that these arguments have already proven false. When asked to repeat the proof, then you will get an answer in a form of "whatever.., I don't have time for you."

Anyway, when considering the quality of an currency, then you have to take two technical attributes into account. One is the ability to transfer value, and the other one is the ability to keep a stable and predictable unit value. This helps the economy because you can only take on long-term projects, when the currency that you rely on is stable. Long-term projects need proper planning and you can do that in a stable financial environment.
Bitcoin has shown that it can be effective in transferring value, but it still lacks the mechanism to build a stable and predictable unit price. The community myth is that larger adaptation brings stability. What happens is that bigger market cap. only lures in bigger predators who have better knowledge on how to work an unregulated market.

People who think that bitcoin will be used in the far future, are the same to me, as people who thought that Macintosh 128k will be used in the far future. It's just a beginning of a wave of open sourced currencies, that will be improved over the years, and that will be far-far more complex, then the current top of the line models are.

That is why I also support altcoins. Cryptocurrency is not about buying a unit of some brand of product and becoming rich by deflation. This is the same thinking as borrowing money and getting rich with interest. Both schemes on how to get rich without actually contributing anything and your riches will come at the expense of others.
The new world with the cryptocurrencies won't work like that. Information technology will be used to drive finance in a way that more people will get what they deserve. In the future, if you do something useful to others, then you will be rewarded more, and if you only leech upon others, then you will be rewarded less.
The Bitcoin fanboys are mostly fans of that old world, and they are not interested in the technology.. their interest is more into switching places with the current leeches. They dream that technology won't evolve in a organic manner and that bitcoin will be the end of line. This is the only way they see on how to get rich, so they could buy the respect of others like them.

great input  :)

For his heresy, Mervyn will be called a perma-bear from now on!  :D

The biggest problem I see on the short term is China. While outside China bitcoin has two economies
to support it (one bullish: Silk Road 2 and clones, and one slightly bearish, the normal merchants accepting bitcoin),
in China there is no real use for bitcoin, except maybe bribery (punishment for drug dealers in China is very harsh).
So the Chinese speculators, mostly bagholders IMO, react strongly to FUD / real bad news. Since the Chinese
exchanges have difficulties attracting new fiat, IMO they will act as a resistance above a price level, that could be ~800$.
And if the PBoC decides to worsen their stance on bitcoin, we could see some serious panic selling. During the last 2 months
there wasn't much new FUD from China, but this can change anytime, and only insiders will know in advance.
 

My main point was that "hoarding-only" currency has a right to exist.

As to the reasons to exist, your countering of these reasons is valid. However, what are the current alternatives for hoarders? Fiat and commodities, right? Both, imo, considerably worse than Bitcoin.

To clarify the strengths of Bitcoin in this context:
   - Decentralised as in "not controlled by a goverment"
   - Non-inflationary as in "supply increasing to a known finite number"
   - Easily stored and transferred in relation to commodities such as gold or land
   - Anonymous as in "hopefully in the near future" :)
   - you continue... err... maybe here I wanted you to add that Bitcoin is fun

Now, I fully agree with Mervin that better cryptocurrencies than Bitcoin will emerge or perhaps emerged already.

If thats not blatant trolling I don't know what is. Nobody could be THAT brain dead.

If it is merchant heaven, they should give discount if you pay in bitcoins.

For sure BitCoins will not be used for just anything fast. But for some things have huge advantages. And is way from fully used all of it.

For sure people will not go change euros into BTC, to go buy some stuff. Yes if will be cheaper. But if they will get pay in BTC, then yes they will.

If we hold long enough, at least we will have our reward in heaven.

Just like central banks hoard gold to increase its value, everyone knows that hoarding will increase the value of bitcoin, and if you hoard it for some years and spend it at a slow but steady pace, the spending won't affect the appreciation trend

OP is attention whoring here.

I had already responded in considerable details to his lack of grappling with his own financial situation and the silliness of his choice to sell half of his stash at this time.  Instead of going through some kind of meaningful reassessment of his past actions and to reconsider what he had already done, he seems to be trying to seek justification for his previous stupid-ass decision to sell half of his stash in order to live off of those proceeds for two years.

There is NO real poll answer that would adequately capture my sense of OP's behavior here, except the closest would probably be that he is spreading FUD.  However, a more appropriate response is that OP is either blind or dumb, and is failing to engage in an adequate self-assessment regarding his investment plan and strategies.

It does NOT seem to be worth the effort to engage too much in this thread or on this topic in this thread b/c OP has an inadequate understanding of his own situation to be of any real meaning or usefulness for the bitcoin investment considerations of others.

I would argue that in a conventional economy there is a difference between hoarding and saving.
Saving = Investment, ie savings are productively invested in the future of the economy
Hoarding = burying in the back garden (or location of choice) - this is a non-productive use of resources - and there are very few ways currently of productively investing BTC (I am not sure lending them on margin counts - and Havelock Investments and the like are not yet trusted by large sections of the community - with many valid reasons)

You are free to mess up the nomenclature of course, but:

Saving money is having the money in your possession for later use.

Investing is buying capital goods for your money with the intent to profit from it.

Lending is letting others use your savings to invest or consume while you don't need them, for a fee. This includes depositing your money in a bank.

Hoarding is a derogative word for saving. It can be used for saving money or for saving other things for the future, like food, fuel.

The purpose of having money at all is to consume, now or later.

you didn't argue a single statement of those I posted through the whole thread, but you came to tell me how dumb idiot I am... no one pointed here to me selling half of my Bitcoins except you....nice, it shows how pity and empty you are, and this shows who is the real idiot... answer to my posts with a reasonable and logical post and quit personal attacks...

What I find funny is that you caused a lot of fuss about rpietila 'showing off' and then you decide to post photos of your own 'nice' life.

You attacked rpietila personally and now you're talking about personal attacks.

Hypocrite x 2. Lulz

nice life ? are you serious? did I show castles and cigars and wine... I showed a fucking single bicycle on a mountain, if you don't play a sport to keep your self fit than it is your fucking miserable problem and not mine.

this show a ton load of money, do you see the millions ?... a father with his little son and wife going with a bicycle around, this implies to 2 things, even you are a stupid dumb or have no fucking life.

https://i.imgur.com/IfEDV1c.jpg

I agree, personal attacks suck. Some replies:

Yup, not as good as it was, but still infinitely better than the current global fiat curency system. Can I see secret payments/bribes going between investment banks, politicians and central bankers across the world on the blockchain? No. If the global financial system finally disappears into a debt black hole will I still have my bitcoins? Yes.

Yup, there is some inflation, but compare it to Japan, for example, which is doubling the number of yen in 12 monhts, it's pretty low. Also, the value is still very low compared to it's likely future stable value, so not a bad thing to hold on to in a diversified portfolio.

Money is too hard to store, especially if I leave a big pile in the street when it's windy. It's complicated to use/store if you don't understand computers, but these people are children who are having all power taken away from them. Ohh, computers are weird/hard, I don't want to used them. Oh, I dont have a job now, why did that happen? I don't like smart phones, they are too complicated. Oh, what's that? No job again. Oh bitcoin is too hard, I'll trust the banks who have already shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy. Oh, what's that? All my money's gone? Oh, it was never really there, that's right.

Not not anonymous, just not anonymous for people who can't be bothered to understand technology.

I do agree there is an ongoing risk of people selling out and dropping the value, but that periodically happens, it's called a bear market. We just had one. We'll have another one after the next bubble. It's OK, people can sell their coins to me cheap, I'll sell them back when they are expensive.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize money is the only thing one could brag about. Fact is you posted your photos of you cycling with the caption 'this is how I'll be spending the next two years of my life now that I've sold my coins.' That's showing off. Showing off freedom.

oh so now I am dumb and showing off because I will be free for the next couple of years...

sadly we base our investments on hope, it means taking a huge risk (which sometimes is fine when expecting a huge reward), your answer show the hope of community of these things getting resolved... well I do hope too, but if things goes wrong it will be a disappointment.

lots of early adopters made millions but in return they invested back in bitcoin related businesses, thats a reason to brag about. But no one likes speculators who only use Bitcoin as a tool to get rich and then brag about it; you could do alot of good things to let other people know about Bitcoin's utility, not about get rich quick schemes; maybe create/invest in bitcoin businesses. You instead come along and brag about being free and how smart you were to take advantage of Bitcoin. Well, good for you but not many will agree with your attitude, try something constructive, help Bitcoin grow further, give something back if you're really a bitcoin adopter not only a speculator.

Bitcoin investment is pyramid scheme, the only way for your Bitcoins to be worth more is to bring new people in... you know "help introduce more people to the magic of Bitcoin"... many early adopters and large holders are just a bunch of scumbags, from roger Ver to Mark to.... satoshi himself  they don't fucking care about you or me but only about their investment to be worth more....

Lol how can you say its a pyramid scheme, its totally the opposite, when new users adopt Bitcoin, we together all benefit in various ways, there is no one at the top of the tree, we all benefit because we can interact financially. I don't know how you have so many posts and miss the essence of Bitcoin, its not about bringing people in, they come in by themselves, I said you could help people understand Bitcoin utility in that they are well informed about the technology that it brings not about the get-rich schemes that you obviously took advantage of. People like you make me sick, but I'm not worrying too much because you'll soon sell the other half of your btc stash.

I see capitulation being ~$5-$7.

But yes I see LTC going down in the shorter term but then rebounding upwards near the end of the next Bitcoin rally.

It is indeed, if Bitcoin turns out to be useless as a payment network. Otherwise we would expect to see an S-curved adoption, just like similar technologies.

I am not against Bitcoin, but people like you need to be aware of what they are investing in, in fact, there is a top pyramid which his satoshi with a million BTC, and new users benefit of Bitcoin only if other users joins after them, and we get new adopters only when: a) they see the price appreciating (skyrocketing) so they jump in to profit and later start learning about bitcoin technical and economical stuff b) they are curious about the technology.

most users are the first kind because every bubble bring huge amount of users like you (and like me before) and yes I will make sure to sell my other half when it is time, because I am also sure that Bitcoin is just a start of a new era and it is not the era ( emotional people wouldn't understand this)

People like me know what Bitcoin is, and certainly not a pyramid scheme, there so one at the top of the tree, we all benefit by utilizing Bitcoin.

People like me don't treat Bitcoin as an investment, we are not speculators, we are adopters.

People like me give shit about btc price, it doesn't matter if it goes up or down, we will not sell our bitcoin based on fear, we use bitcoin daily for our internet purchases and as soon as more merchants starts to accept it locally we will use it more and more.

People like me are aware of the risk of investing huge amounts on bitcoin and its not something we advise. Actually I don't advise anyone to purchase bitcoin in order to get rich, I mostly donate to them in order for them to appreciate what a amazing piece of technology we have been given by Satoshi.

People like me don't brag when they make money because bitcoin price has appreciated. In fact people like me are hoping that bitcoin doesn't skyrocket so that we don't attract more people like you who only take advantage but give nothing in return.

Your use of a bubble as an argument for poeple adopting bitcoin is very poor because people fear bubble type schemes. If that would've been the premise for user adoption then Bitcoin would've been dead by now.

What kind of low life *** you are if you think this is a pyramid scheme and you still hold couple hundreds of btcs. Well thats another feature of bitcoin that no one is banned for using it, no matter how perverse they are.

to make money from fuck tards like you, blind fanatics that refuse to think... keep on, this is a good sign, your kind assures me that the next bubble will be some time soon.

I hope you lose your private keys :-) Fucking speculator. Sell already! Bitcoin is going down! SELL!

be careful about what you wish for...

I dare you to sell. Bitcoin is going no where, we're all lost, save yourself. My advice SELL!

Is it not, that any speculation/investment is a kind of a pyramid scheme? No matter in what you invest, you suppose that the supply compared to the demand will rise. So your investment is rising in value 'caused by deficiency. From this deficiency you'll find another speculator/investor that is willing to change your good against more of another good compared to your time of order.

The only difference to most investments compared to bitcoin, is that bitcoin has not only a relative value but also bitcoins (intrinsic) value is (more) abstract.

I still have many coins to go in the first place and I don't think Bitcoin is doomed (just not yet), but you.... I don't know where to start. Bitcoin fanatics trash any voice of reason,  you see only the colored great Bitcoin to the moon and most argument/discussion about how to fix or improve things get trashed and trolled... "Bitcoin is perfect we just need the price to go to  $ 100K" is this what you want me to say ?

edit: you are a troll is what I wanted to say.

mmitech, time to let the cat out of the bag. As a slovenian and even direct neighbor of Bitstamps place of business,  you have detailed insider information about the upoming insolvency of Bitstamp, which is why you sold your coins. You could at least share the roughly date when they plan to close the shop and save some poor souls therewith.

Thanks

Fonzie

you are pity troll....

Sad thing is he doesn't even have a couple of hundred BTC.

I must admit , OP has some legit points!



MMITECH posted the anatomy of a bubble, this made my day!  :D :D :D :D

Thanks for that.

What´s next? Rpietila postin the south sea bubble chart?  :D :D :D

So satoshi is a scumbag, huh. What about Leonardo da Vinci, or Beethoven?

OP sounds like a douche-bag.

you could vote for " go fuck your self" or " the OP is butt hurt" but you bitcoin fanatics are so bitchy when it comes to things that scares you....

The main reason that I came to this thread and commented here is b/c you and I seemed to be having a series of posts and discussions/debates in another thread and in one of the posts (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg7392143#msg7392143)  you referred me to this thread that you were making, which I presumed to be that you were explaining your investment plan, or something like that, but seems NOT

Here's another series from the thread too.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg7316589#msg7316589



Even though my language has seemed to become increasingly strong, b/c I have become increasingly irritated by the content of your posts, I have never really intended to personally attack you... or to call you dumb.. just to call your ideas dumb and lack of plan dumb and your seemingly lack of an ability to communicate dumb.  So, I apologize if you took any of my posts as personal attacks b/c they were NOT meant to be personal attacks.

NO DOUBT, I do stand by my previous statements, and to the extent that you are bringing up and/or framing some new or additional topic, at this point, I am NOT really interested in reading and/or attempting to understand the potentially fine details of any framing that you have b/c I have already come to realize that you seem to have a lot of real perverted thinking and logical connections that greatly are out of the range of anything that I consider to be valuable use of time to engage in such goofeyness.  I will glance through the remainder of this thread to see if there is any potential value or any way in which maybe my contribution may be helpful to others reading the thread... however, largely I believe that I have wasted enough of my time entertaining you various streams of consciousness to realize that they do NOT really seem to go anywhere that I find worth being.

I largely agree with you, Maok; however, on a personal level, I do NOT really expect that individuals have a responsibility to invest back into bitcoin before they have a right to bragg.  For me, I did harp a little bit about mmitech's bragging b/c he seems to be acting as if he is some kind of wise / guru in his foresight in when he invested, and then that he made a profit and that he is getting out before the ship goes does... some kinds of implications like that.  

Certainly, NONE of us really know exactly the direction of bitcoin and the future, so surely it may be possible that mmitech guesses correctly and gets it right and bitcoin tanks tomorrow and then he has gotten his money out before the BIG BITCOIN CRASH.  YET>>> personally, I believe that the odds are considerably against mmitech having had bet correctly and on top of that I have already explained that it makes hardly any sense to take out 2 years worth of spending with your bitcoin proceeds at this particular moment, when it seems more likely than NOT that BTC prices are on their way UP rather than DOWN.  In other words, in my thinking, NOT only is mmitech lacking in a plan, he is lacking in any kind of meaningful ability to communicate why his investment decision to remove half of his bitcoin investment would be a prudent choice at this point in time.
 

We can only hope that mmitech will sell the other half of his bitcoins and remove himself from this poor investment called bitcoin.  Then the rest of us can suffer.  Mmitech, could you just sell all of your bitcoins and remove yourself from BTC and from this forum.  Thank you.

I will make sure to enjoy my time, thankfully to my dumb decision, and you can bitch about it as much you want, this year has been a 180° change in my life (in various aspects) and thanks to Bitcoin, yeah and thanks to you as well for joining and making my investment worth more.


Some pictures from Today's Trip : http://www.sports-tracker.com/#/workout/mmitech/e0pk4sh2amjegqno

https://i.imgur.com/gwzVrxg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TCL1RmY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tn06uAK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PD6x1Kj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YHXch5s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/p0YyVXM.jpg


translation: eat a dick.

Very good points, Maok, and well said!!!   ;)

YES, Op... you are wonderful!!!!!     :o

ITT lots and lots of extremely skin thinned bulls in here. The rally so far not to your liking, gentlemen?

Anyway, ignoring all the bile being spread in this thread... enjoy your time off, mmitech. I agree what some have pointed out, that there would have probably been better times to sell than right now, from a purely economical perspective, but you don't need to justify your decision when and how much to sell one bit.

I don't need to justify my position, they turned this discussion about my personal decision... I pointed out that after I sold half of my stash my average cost now is $-400/Bitcoin so why would this be disappointing ? now even if bitcoin goes to zero I have nothing to lose, and thanks ;)

Is it so expensive to wander in the woods nowadays that you need an investment ? :-)

Your investment isn't worth more because new users joined, but because Bitcoin is FINITE(current users will value 1 btc more tomorrow than they do today) & miners PAID MUCH MORE for their mining equipment & electricity bills(so they won't sell their mined bitcoins for less than it would take to recover their invesment). You understand Bitcoin worse than a newbie. You're really pathetic.

Like I said, some of the reactions in here are actually really pretty disappointing in their aggressiveness, including a number of posters that I thought would be better than that.

That said, your OP is a bit of a red cape: you're telling a forum full of (by and large) holders that a) you sold a substantial part of your holdings, and b) that you did so because you believe price will most likely not continue to go up in the near future.

What I'm trying to say is, some amount of disagreement is to be expected. But, yeah, the aggressive, personal tone that developed pretty soon isn't your fault.

you need some time to understand the whole picture, but whatever....it is not expensive to go to the woods but it is expensive to quit your job to have time to spend with your family doing things you love anytime, well this is*priceless*.

you are still attacking me, you didn't provide a single valid argument against my arguments, another stupid post and you will go on my ignore list.

Do you concur with him that Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme ?

I have nothing against someone who knows how to make money & diversify his/her portfolio, but when someone talks nonsense its worth pointing that out to them.

of course it is, do your math and grow up.

I don't know what you call a valid argument but you're wrong thinking I'm here to change your mind, your mind is already set so at least I can show to others how wrong you are.

The term "pyramid scheme" is charged, and often equated with "Ponzi scheme".

At least as an investment, Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme (though not a Ponzi scheme), in the sense that the earlier you got in, the more your investment will be worth, and without new blood entering, your investment doesn't grow.

The big difference to the usual pyramid schemes though is that in our case, it is just the bootstrapping phase of a peer to peer currency/store of wealth. In other words: it has to be a pyramid scheme, because it needs to start from nothing, and aims to grow to capture a huge market.

Lets say an very early adopter has paid lots of money for his mining equipment and bills but has chosen not to sell any of his bitcoins. If tomorrow bitcoin price collapses he will have a worse faith than someone who joined a year later than him but sold his bitcoins. Therefore In order to call it a pyramid scheme those early adopters should
1. make a financial gain bigger than the adopters that joined after him
 and
2. have a GUARANTEED PROFIT from the fact that others joined later. In our early adopter case neither is true. This could be the case with many bitcoiners which haven't yet recovered their investment which they made into mining while others who traded on the exchanges but joined later than them made much more money.

Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme because
3. there's not a level of differentiation between joining dates of participants, only that you acquire more knowledge of the inner workings of Bitcoin.
also
4. you don't have to make a payment to join, you can merely offer your services in return for bitcoins and doesn't require you to buy or mine them, hence no initial payment is required for you to join. Overstock for example keeps 10% of bitcoins for their products. They haven't investment anything into bitcoin but still they can interact with some of the earliest adopters without Bitcoin making any distinctions between them.

Many times, Oda makes decent and reasonable points in his posts; however, this does NOT seem to be one of his reasonable posts. 

For some reason Oda feels it is necessary to support mmitech in his various posts on this topic, and it is possible that Oda has NOT either read the previous posts or does NOT understand the situation.

Personally, I do NOT think any of us give a flying fuck what mmitech does with his BTC investment or his investment choices.  Several postings in this thread, and in the other thread that mmitech was posting on this topic, mmitech has done a real inadequate job in communicating tone and content, and mmitech has been very confrontational in his approach to respond to other posts.  It seem like mmitech unable to control himself - his emotions, reactions and defensiveness, and it seem like, he is just a bad communicator.

Oda's suggestion that mmitech is NOT at fault in causing the situation seems to be misplaced.  To me it seems like either Oda does NOT understand the situation b/c he has NOT read the various relevant posts or has some kind of attachment to mmitech.

-well 4 years ago when they first wanted to valuate Bitcoin they took the mining cost average as an entry price, the demand was low so that was somehow fair, $1 was worth around 1300BTC but today the mining cost doesn't have so much to do with the Bitcoin valuation, it is supply and demand what controls the price today, lets say you bought an ASIC for $10K which would mine around 10BTC in its life time, the price of Bitcoin has to be more than $1000 for you to break even not to mention the costs of mining and the profit you wish to acquire, the statement above means that the price of Bitcoin has to be $1000 for you to break even and not should be, the price of Bitcoin will be where the demand meets the supply or what is the best bidder is willing to pay, to make it easy to understand: If I mined my coins 2 years ago, the mining cost for a bitcoin was less than $5, and if I dumped now I would ruin your investment and still make huge profit, this is one bad side of hoarding.


1- anyone joins before you will make more money than you and everyone will follow (pyramid scheme), for example if you joined in 2010 when Bitcoin was worth pennies and invested $1000 you would make more than someone who joined in 2012 and invested $1000 when the price was $10 and he himself would make more than someone who joined summer 2013 and invested $1000 when the price was at $100 which also would make more that someone who joined November 2013 and invested $1000 when the price was $1000..


2- only Miners who started mining last year in the ASIC era lost investments or didn't make ROI in terms of Bitcoin (except avalon Batch1 customers and ASIC manufacturers), I mined with graphics cards and made a decent profit, then I retired my miners mid last year. and not all adopters who joined last year lost money, I happen to know many people who joined from January-September 2013 that made good profits, only people who bought at more than $700 are losing now and have to wait for their investment to pay back. and for that to happen pray for a new wave of adopters to join ASAP.

3- of course there is a difference in joining date, look at 1 ( my initial investment was around 3000€) for the same investment today (in terms of Bitcoin cost) you wouldn't come close to what the same investment would make you if invested 2 years ago.

4- a merchant accepting Bitcoin as payment and holding the bitcoin is the same as a new user joining, you have to understand what is money and why money have value, so merchants are exchanging goods and services for Bitcoin which give Bitcoin a value against these goods and services. same goes for your Fiat, it holds value only when you exchange it for goods or services otherwise you hold just a peace of paper or a promise from your government that paper has a purchasing power, but we all know that merchants doesn't keep the Bitcoins and chose and cash out the payment received with payment processors for zero risk, they add Bitcoin only because of a new userbase which is worst for Bitcoin price especial now that the adoption is declining.



you are off-topic...again.

Or both.

Would be preferable if all sides could tone down a bit... I really don't see the reason for all the aggressiveness.


Anyway...

@maok

I understand your point about early investors also being the ultimate risk takers. However, that wasn't my point, to claim that there is a guaranteed profit. Neither is there one, btw, for the 2nd line of investors in a malicious pyramid scheme.

I'll try to paraphrase to clarify my point: the ultimate goal of Bitcoin as it is widely understood is reaching a capitalization that does not only represent the intrinsic value of the transaction network itself, but represents the global economic output (or a fraction thereof).

To get there, Bitcoin needs to successively reach global acceptance. Any speculative value in excess of the current usage + acceptance level will melt away should it ever become apparent that global acceptance isn't attainable. In that case, the earliest investors will quite likely sit on a healthy profit, while the latest investors might well face a substantial loss.

So far, no different from a stock, right? The difference is what I describe in the 2nd paragraph: stocks only measure the intrinsic value of the company they represent (plus hype, plus some industry wide multiplier perhaps). They don't require a growing user and investor base to hold a price (unless the price was vastly inflated by speculative mania). Bitcoin, from day one of trading, has been understood as a global peer to peer currency -- and its speculative value represented that. Should our little experiment ever fall short of our expectations for good, the price deflation would probably be so vast that at least the last 2 waves of investors would face a loss.

tl;dr Intensionally, you are right: Bitcoin isn't a pyramid. My claim is that extensionally, it is indistinguishable up to the point where it succeeds.

That is some silly nonsense, like the rest of your posts! So someone who would join now will "make" (whatever you understand by that) two times more than somebody who joined in November last year! The pyramid is upside down!

you just think it is upside down, I look at the long term of things and you look at the short ones...

I can't see how even extensionally we can call Bitcoin a pyramid scheme. Just because it needs a growing user base, doesn't mean that those late investors will have more to lose than the early ones. Lets say an investor bought 100 bitcoins last November at $1000, and I buy 100 bitcoins now at $500, who will have more to lose ? Me or the early investor ? The claim that once the user base grows so does the price is false, just take the last 6 months as an example. A pyramid scheme would clearly favour the early investor. Indeed if the price will rise so does the risk of the late investors but thats the nature of a deflationary monetary asset, just like gold, but unlike gold there's no one who sets the price each morning based on their subjective view.

Yes, it helps to move these communications in a productive direction if you delete the contents of my posts, then you do NOT need to respond b/c you have therefore unilaterally defined the direction of the conversation.  Congratulations on your abilities,  



NOT.    :D :o     


Edited above for clarification(s).

O.k... I should have put an "and/or" in there instead of an "or."



Sometimes these matters need to run their course, and the record should speak for itself regarding the tone.  To me, it seems that there is NOT too much more to say between mmitech and me, but surely topics (or posts) by either of us may cause additional responses by the other... at least there seems to be a potential for such.  I don't especially feel any continued need to pursue the subject or related subjects, but I cannot guarantee that some post may NOT prompt me to raise such subject or feel a need to respond.


 

I think I understand your point, but I'm not sure you understand mine: I am not claiming Bitcoin as an investment is a malicious pyramid a.k.a. a Ponzie. I am however pointing out that the user base/acceptance growth requirements placed on the market by the huge enthusiasm of the early adopters (i.e. us) and the extremely ambitious goals resemble that of a pyramid: we must grow at an exponential rate, or the experiment will probably fail. Good thing then that, so far, exponential growth in all the key metrics holds.<sup>(*)


(*)</sup> That's not an endorsement of extrapolation from linear regression over log price. I continue to believe that this is way too crude (and imprecise) to be considered a useful predictor of future price for any practical purposes (i.e. trading).

YES..... You are amazing mmitech... just keep up with your non-responses by merely referring back to earlier non-responses.

Seems as if you are having trouble really engaging with the topic... and really the whole point is being lost, anyhow with the passage of time.  Let's just check back in 6 months and see whether your decision to cash out half of your BTC was a good one.  I really doubt it, but fine, that is what you want to do. 

I suspect in the mean time, you are probably going to be making various trades though, in order to muddy the waters, and there is NOTHING wrong with engaging in ongoing monitoring of ones holdings and adjusting investment behaviors in order to respond to various changes in the market... (whether expected or NOT).

I understand and appreciate the effort you put upon the explanation and the simplification of things, but I think we are just wasting our time here, no matter what you will write they wont like it and they wont let it go except if you tell them " Bitcoin is great it is the innovation of this century and the price will be $100K soon"  the same like Roger Ver and Andreas antonopoulos and many others told them...

you are so butt hurt really, I will not waste my time with your nonsense...

I believe that expectations have a considerable amount of variance... and there is a difference between expectations and wishes...

Personally, I hope for growth that exceeds the average of my other investments (which is about 6% per year); however, I believe that BTC has a much higher potential (higher than 6% per year), and I could get as high as 10x per year if I am very lucky, but more likely the rate of growth will be much smaller than 10x, and the growth rate will probably taper off somewhat (even though the potential remains to gain considerably).  Yes, I could also lose 100% of my investment, and I am taking chances by investing in BTC. 

NONETHELESS, even though I have NOT placed on paper my calculations for the probabilities for all these various outcomes and weighed them (like what is the likelihood of -100% returns, -50%, 0%, 6%, 25%, 50%, 100%, 1000%, etc)  it seems to me that if I were to add up all the possible outcomes and the probabilities, then likely in the end I am expecting much greater than 6% per year returns, and accordingly, BTC remains a pretty decent investment for me.

Part of my point here is that I really doubt that it is fair to place every BTC investor into a box b/c each of us is making his/her own calculation concerning why we are into BTC and what risks we are taking and what are our expectations regarding returns... and accordingly, expectations can also differ from rhetoric regarding hopes of returns higher than expectations.

That is your choice regarding whether or NOT you choose to engage. 

I really have trouble understanding how you come to any conclusion regarding how or why I would be "butt hurt" about anything.  I tend to think that you are either lacking in vocabulary or possibly lacking in being able to hold more than one thought in your head at one time regarding potential motivations of others.  Accordingly,  probably, I should be more kind to you, except, your arrogance brings out a certain level of irritation in me which seems to cause me to be feel less sympathy for you and your situation and your motives and to be less kind towards you than what I would otherwise strive to be.

In the end, I hope you will be able to get some value out of our exchange and possibly be able to reflect upon various back and forths that we had, even though they may have been somewhat less than interactive.

you are now officially in my ignore list.... you are a pain in the ass, you think that you understand things but your head is totally empty.... don't respond to this because I wont see it and and I dont want to see it, you will remain in my ignore list.

For some reason you seem to have a mistaken impression that posts in public threads are soley for you.  If posts in public threads were intended to be soley for you, then probably it would be more effective to post them in your PM, but I did NOT post in your PM b/c I had NO desire or inclination to send any PM to you. 

Well in any event, NOW it appears that we will NOT be communicating any further (NOT that we were previously), so likely there will be NO need for a PM.

I am saddened by this development.   :'( 



NOT.....    :D

My LTC prediction from 2 months ago just got confirmed (below 4$). But I am afraid I wasn't bearish enough on LTC, it may drop below 3$.

I am waiting for that scenario as well, a flash crash to $1 wouldn't be that surprising.