Bitcoin Forum

With the US deficit not shrinking any time soon, China looks like its going to becoming one of the world's most important economies. How big is bitcoin in China?

The volume pie chart on Bitcoincharts doesnt show CNY, but given that the country has heaps of rich folk now... this cant be right!?

With China having roots in communism and the state wanting to control everything, bitcoin in theory (being both anonymous and decentralized) would be very valuable to them.

Zhoutong just made Chinese the second language of choice on Bitcoinica

www.bitcoinica.com/trading

    简体中文

select language

I hope that Zhou Xiaochuan, the head of the People's Bank of China, takes note

How big is Bitcoin's presence in China?

I'd imagine atm bigger in Honk Kong province but look see:

http://www.blockchain.info/nodes-globe?series=48hrs

edit: & as Honk Kong is most likely where Zhoutong will shortly incorporate Bitcoinica we may see a big growth of interest there when it's officially registered as a Ltd. Co./Inc.

Is there a Chinese forum for bitcoins?

a search is your friend there, plenty of Ruskie one's if that's any help & just curious if you're Chinese what are you doing with those dreaded 4's in your user name? perhaps you're not or it's some cryptic that I haven't goxed as yet..

443 is HTTPS port.

hmmm, all geek to me dood, but 5 & 8 would be much more auspicious as it also would be for the BTC $ price too  ;)

edit: thanks btw notme for the enlightenment on that, I see you have atm Posts: 1483

one of my favorite numbers is: 143 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=143)

Theres a chinese subforum here but its small.

Might be tough information to get... the great firewall of china coming into affect?

Maybe Zhoutong can shed some light on it.

The volume of Chinese Bitcoin exchange(www.btcchina.com) in the past 30 days is 6452.13 BTCs.

Thats one exchange, what other major exchanges are there that serve the chinese/asian market?

Not big, because of the regulations.

Think about the Chinese GreatFireWall...

Of course that dreaded wall is a concern but at least so far I have not seen any blocking of the ports nor of the main websites (perhaps this is just because it is too small to be on the radar yet).

No one could tell the exact contribution to trading volumes in other exchanges. But I briefly
know quite a few serious miners in China. They use either btcchina or mtgox.

In reality, the Chinese government is insanely afraid of the circulation of non-fiat currencies. Fundraising and financial companies in China are also highly regulated. An enterpreneur had just been sentenced to death just because she promised a high interest rate to her loaners(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Ying). This is why services like Bitcoinica wouldn't exist in China for at least a while.

Chinese people don't particularly dread 4's. They just don't like to have them in celebrations very much. (I'm a Chinese and I live in China.)

Note that Hong Kong is not a province. It's a Special Administrative Region that uses the British-style common law and has a local government of which Beijing only has a limited control. A lot of things that are perfectly fine in Hong Kong are serious crimes in the rest parts of China.

Indeed. But I could imagine the furious react of the government when they identify Bitcoin as a threat. They would demonize it in TVs and newspapers most of which are owned by the state. They would randomly centesimate some people for their use of Bitcoin. They would also ban the ports.

But the good part, is that I don't think the Chinese government is capable of launching a 51% attack. At least the probability is very low. They are too inefficient to do such a thing. If the hardware cost of 51% attack is X dollars. They would waste at least 100*X dollars on constructing beautiful buildings for new government employees, organizing banquets for bureaucrats, and bribing a bunch of economists and scientists to justify their deeds in the media.

From the link, it looks like she did more than promise high interest... Half the money was missing by the time they arrested her.  The death penalty is a bit steep, but she was guilty (and plead as such) of more than offering good interest rates.

Not Big.

... but thats the beauty of bitcoin, aren't those the exact same reasons why it would flourish? With all the government regulation, bitcoin's anonymity would benefit its users.

How much is the CNY regulated? Maybe bitcoin isnt popular there as the CNY is so unregulated that theres no reason to have an anonymous payment system. Although, I'm sure some would still be interested in mining.

Without a doubt "cash is king" in PRC (you see people going in and out of the banks with hundreds of thousands of RMB in bags daily) and the amount of tax paid by most is very little (if any at all). They also have anonymous shopping center "smart cards" which are often traded and can sometimes contain tens of thousands of RMB per card.

Understand that also the cost of banking (in terms of fees) is virtually zero and the cost of making internet purchases on taobao is completely fee free (with the ability to send back or get refunds) so for the vast majority there is really nothing to be gained from Bitcoin apart from perhaps escaping inflation.

I do think that Bitcoin mining is something some internet savvy Chinese would be doing as it is quite likely that they may have access to "free electricity". :)

I'm sorry the best English material I could provide is the wiki page. This link plays "neutral" by mixing the Chinese government's opinion into it. There are tons of articles and evidences in Chinese to argue for her innocence.

Most of people in China, including her loaners, don't believe she's guilty. The state machine's conclusion, that she had no ability to pay back in the future, from the fact that half the money was missing, was arbitrary. And more importantly, the whole dispute was a topic of civil law. She should by no means have been considered as a criminal anyway.

The amount of tax paid by companies is very high, including the Enterprise Income Tax (as high as 25%), and the VAT (normally 17%). The personal income tax (progressive, the maximum cap is 45%) is also pre-paid before one gets her salary. There are surely many places where people could benefit from Bitcoin.

The cost of banking is also not zero, and invoked quite a lot of complaints in the last several years. If your account is opened in city A and you want to withdraw cash in city B, you might probably pay fees (in my experience, around 0.5%). The transaction fee between different banks is also non-neglectable.

Large multinationals might pay a lot of tax but most small businesses do not (ever been asked "xu yao fa piao ma?").

It is very common for an employee's salary to be officially listed as 3,500 RMB per month (no tax due on that) and then to receive an annual (or sometimes monthly) bonus in the form of either cash or stored value cards (which are anonymous for values at least up to 100,000 RMB).

Also bear in mind the very vast majority of Chinese do not work for companies at all (they work in the farms and get paid cash in hand).

Moving cash between banks can be a pain so in fact for large amounts the RMB is often physically transferred but also if you are able to find a branch of one cities local bank in another city the transfer is often free (and btw the 0.5% applies only up to a max of 50 RMB so for very large amounts it can effectively almost nothing).

I'm not saying there is no use for Bitcoin in PRC but quite a few of the commonly listed "use cases" that are very applicable to westerners (such as credit card or Paypal fees) are just not applicable in China.

Evading tax by faking vouchers is not without risk. The local government may randomly punish some of them to frighten the rest.

I mostly agree with you though, especially for your last paragraph. BTW how many years have you been in China? It is very uncommon for a westerner to know so many details that are more or less "underground".  ;D

True but for sure it is still very common (the stored value card business is still going strong I believe).


Have been here over 5 years now and my wife is Chinese. :)

5 years is indeed a long time. It's even enough for you to learn to understand most of the online Chinese materials. :)

In the short term, I think, geeks and speculators would be the first ones who are attracted to Bitcoin in China, just like any other places of the world.

Very true - also I wouldn't be surprised at all if computers at some "wang ba's" (internet cafe/bars that are popular for gaming) are mining like crazy when not being used by customers (or perhaps even used by customers to do so).

I could confirm this. Some of the miners I know are owners of internet bars. The rest of miners fall into these three categories.

1. Employees of government offices, who have access to free computers and free electricity.
2. Former professional wireless password crackers re-using their existing GPUs.
3. Serious miners (>10G) paying for their own electricity, most of which entered mining in the last June.

Thank you for the clarification.

As you're both in China, I'll leave it to you to promote Bitcoin there :) !!

I think the precondition of this post is wrong, China can only be the fake big economy in this world, and the gov can ban bitcoin with only a few words, there are no liberty and humen rights.

I was speaking to a young guy in china who just spent 1 month in jail - for having a completely non-political text chat with someone in Tibet.
I tend to believe it - from my chats with this Chinese guy - he's pretty apathetic about politics. (though perhaps one 'has' to appear disinterested in politics there to stay out of trouble??)

The person he was chatting to happened to be a member of some group the government doesn't like.

The government just needs to lock a few people up like that for a 'short' time - with no recourse, no appeal - and the message gets out about what not to do.
With consequences like that for ordinary Chinese - who would risk running a bitcoin program if the government tells them not to?  Very few I'd guess.

Keep in mind this could be a story from any force-imposed tax regime in the world.  The psychology is the same.  As long as we give guns and uniforms to a few people and let them decide to lock us up and take our possessions for no reason, they will eventually do so.  Sadly there are far more political prisoners in the USA, for example. 

As usual, professional miners will move some operations into china due to lower manufacturing cost of FPGA miners, but not the mining operation, since if their police try to ban the BTC related traffic on internet, that will be done quickly

Goole's results of regional interest for the search term Bitcoin

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=bitcoin&date=today%2012-m&cmpt=q

Search volume index - see world map

China:            25
Viet Nam:       15
Japan:            6
Taiwan:          0
Thailand:        0
South Korea:   0

China shows the most interest of the Asian countries
I was surprised that S. Korea didn't register more interest being all high tech & stuff

No interest from any Arabic countries as yet - PetroBitcoins  :P

Argentina: 19 the highest from South America - they've just slapped on a bunch of monetary restrictions for their Peso

I thought Google left or was booted from China  ???

South Korea has a lot of gamers, lots of gfx cards to exploit there I'd imagine :)

Indeed they left but when they did they had redirected searches to google.com.hk (although it often doesn't work or doesn't work very well).

I think that baidu.com would be the main search engine used by Chinese nowadays.

China is only an industrial super power because they keep their currency fixed. I have heard that the PRC is starting to see some inflation, although i do not have hard facts. But i do know, the moment they stop fixing the the RMB, the industrial base will not be able to be sustained.

I have no idea how regular PRC citizens think of their government as of now, but it could be possible that some citizens could see what they are doing and use bitcoin as protection against inflation. Although gold would be better suited for this, but i have no idea what the laws on gold are in PRC.

Indeed inflation is a big concern in China and especially for very low income earners who have to spend nearly all of their earnings on food and housing.

Gold can be bought from banks and is I think being viewed by many as an inflation hedge (at least those that can afford to buy some).

Regular PRC citizens think their government as a necessary evil that is more evil than necessary. Many people buy gold or silver, but more people like investing in houses. Precious metal is allowed in China, but the policy in China is very volatile, no one can tell what the government will do in 5 or 10 years. Ordinary families with low or moderate income suffer from this uncertainty.

Perhaps by "fixed"  you mean importing USD inflation and creating money from nothing as fast as helicopter Ben?
Anyway, there are a few other factors that are involved, no matter what you might mean by industrial super power. 


Ya think?   
Take a look at real estate prices, real wages, or any other commodity over the last 20 years to get a feel for how much RMB is being printed.
All double digit annual inflation.  Another index that shows monetary inflation is unadjusted GDP.   

Inflation is rough there.  From May 2011 to December 2011 the inflation on basic foods was up 5-10% in the same markets.

I would like to thank you guys for all the wonderful (or informative, however you like to phrase it) information about the modern day PRC.

Isn't the interest rate also high out there?

Central Banks are stealing people's treasure all over the world,
especially in China.

Koreans tend to not access non-Korean sites. They have their own domestic facebook type systems, search engines etc, so unless something has a significant Korean language presence the aren't likely to notice it.

I do think they'd like it. Retail Forex trading isn't accessible from here. Korean citizens aren't allowed into casinos and things like that. Access to that kind of thing via BTC would be right up their alley.

Unfortunately there isn't an easy way to get KRW into BTC and vice versa. Banking regs are still quite strict here as a result of the currency crisis in the late 90s, so the likelihood of an exchange getting off the ground here is quite low. Which is a shame because they have non-revocable (as far as I'm aware based on what the bank websites tell me when I make transfers), domestic, interbank transfers that are essentially free.

The actual interest rate is indeed very high. But you'll have to know the right place to invest first.

The interest rate in banks are highly regulated to a very low level. The returns of bonds do not match CPI either.

The stock market in China is basically a scam of Chinese government to cheat out people's money to save and foster the corrupting and inefficient state owned enterprises. It's the heaven of manipulators and speculators, especially those who has relationship with government officers, but the last place any serious investors will look at.

The interest rate of private loans, as a reaction, is very high. But it's not without risk. Any interest rate higher than 400% of the nominal interest rate of banks, is not protected by the law of PR China.

You could also invest in houses and precious metal. Or you can directly invest into some business without stock exchanges. But none of them are as safe as doing so in western countries, due to the unpredictable future move of the non-constitutional PRC government.

A lot of people can't get loans anyway though.  They borrow from family.  I don't see many people getting loans as the housing market is slowing down in China.  In Guangzhou they have cut some prices by 75%.

In Jiangsu and Zhejiang, a vast number of small and medium sized manufacture companies, which contribute to a considerable portion of the whole economy, rely on loans to live and thrive. They usually get private loans, because banks usually aren't willing to let them borrow.

That's quite an exaggeration. They prevent their currency from appreciating by printing more of it, this makes Chinese goods cheaper to foreigners and subsidizes exports. However, it simultaneously limits imports and stifles growth in other ways. If "fixing a currency" was all it took to become an industrial super power, we'd see lots more industrial super powers.



They're not "starting" to see it - they are the ones causing it and it's not a new phenomenon. As mentioned above, the way they keep their currency debased is by inflating it, so of course there is inflation :)

The moment they stop fixing the RMB, it'll appreciate, the average Chinese person will suddenly have vastly higher purchasing power, and their economy will change/evolve to cater to the new dynamics. Their industrial base may strengthen after such an incident, as domestic demand may outpace the fall in foreign demand. Too many factors to make conclusive statements like that. Economies are dynamic creatures.

Unfortunately they do not have that right either.
source:http://www.asianlii.org/cn/legis/cen/laws/rotcogas425/ (http://www.asianlii.org/cn/legis/cen/laws/rotcogas425/)

that article is horrific, totally draconian - I wonder if it's enforced as written, I was under the impression that the PRC gov was encouraging their peep's personal private purchase of PMs atm, gold especially, and that it was State purchaser of all PRC gold mining production for it's own coffers (a hell of a lot of world % produced) plus importing too for CB bullion reserves purchases

but if it is so repressive re gold, ie no more than about an ounce can be taken out by anyone, then Bitcoins will serve a need there by those who wish to not be bound by said controls & so may flourish for that, whether banned at a latter date or not

Eurofag here, was a small time miner (+/- 4Ghash/s), but quit.
I'm flying to Beijing in few weeks for few months to write my master's thesis on civil liberties on the Web in China. A section shall have crypto-currency as subject, focusing on Bitcoin.

In a previous post was mentionned the fact that western uses are not present in China. Vastly used, cash provides same anonymity as Bitcoin does. What could be the main reasons Chinese would use Bitcoin ?

What'd be the threshold for the PRC Government to intervene on the Bitcoin subject ?



p.s. as poor student, also looking to make extra $$, any tips on getting advantages on my travel ? (import goods ? btc wallet on usb ?!  ;) )

Chinese would use Bitcoin as an investment opportunity, they would also use it to pay for some internet services that are illegal in China.

The Bitcoin subject is far too negligible for the PRC Government. Running exchanges might violate the current laws, but the Bitcoin network as a whole will not be an attacking target of the government in at least several years.

answer to your p.s.: I could give you some general advice. Cameras, pads, and laptops are considerably more expensive in China, because of the tariff and VAT. You could take some of them and sell. Perfume, cosmetics and jewelry are also profitable. Finding enough buyers is not easy though. On the other hand, pirate books, DVDs and software are everywhere in China and they are nearly free. You could carry some back to your country if you are not morally against it and ready to take the risk when passing the customs. I suggest you to enter China via Shanghai or Beijing. The probability of getting your luggage checked in southern China cities is much higher.

Ogrr could wind up serving as a niche market to introduce Korea to Bitcoin.  We're all aware of the extent to which Koreans love Blizzard games. Reports are that that the new real-money auction house feature of Diablo III will not be available in Korea, due to concerns that it resembles gambling. This will encourage players to continue privately trading virtual items.  The Korean-language subforum (한국어) already shows significantly more activity than any other language subforum: https://ogrr.com/forum.php?f=45

They should lead the bitcoin market in my opinion, the gaming culture there means there will be no shortage of powerful graphics cards to mine with.

Sometimes when I fly to China I take a bag full of ipads, gucci purses, ect.  That pays for my flight itself.

Many normal Chinese people play with the stock market.  I tell some that what they do is too risky but they do it anyway.  It is basically gambling, but if they knew they could do the same thing with bitcoins....

like Bitlotto where 99% of the funds bet are returned as a jackpot prize to the winner, last one was > 100 coins

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34007.0;all

You mean those Hong Kong people. They're crazy about the forex and stock market.

No Chinese.  I have been in small villages outside of Qingdao and people are on their computer screaming as the price goes up or down.

Yikes, seems that globalization has really done its part there.

362 at the moment..
http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/countryHosts.html

Note that is was 2500 in week 39 of last year.

Servers outside of China might have a difficult time getting a full picture of the network in those scripts, I'd be interested in seeing some kind of network analysis from within China as they would be behind the firewall then.

Following the article on Reuters, I'm curious. How did Zhoutong hear about bitcoin and start following it if the following for it is so small in China? To follow a global trend that is small in your own country requires a great ability to see things from an outside perspective.

Isn't/wasn't he a 17 year old Singapore student?

BitVPS has multiple Chinese clients who all pay with Bitcoin.

I'm not sure what this means in grand scheme of things. Being a specialized service provider accepting Bitcoin; it would stand to reason that there's more than a few people in China who like/know about Bitcoin.

I read somewhere that he's from China and only is/was studying in Singapore.

Aha - be interesting to know if he'd heard about it before he started studying there then.