Bitcoin Forum

For all to think about it and to support the AT Team.

source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/so-where-does-at-go-from-now/msg58143/#msg58143

Reserved   ;D

NXT is a shitcoin. It's kind of laughable. I'm sure the developers know by now that their distributing the entire 1billion NXT that was issued out on Day 1, to under 75 people has doomed NXT from the start....

No matter what features NXT adds, it will always fail because of it's beginnings. Face it, only an extremely small majority of people control most of the NXT coins in existence and by the very small trading volume seen on NXT(even with it's decent sized marketcap), we can all see that those people are reluctant to sell their coins/ease the extreme unfairness present, making NXT one of the most "centralized" alt-coins ever made.

Time will tell.


After 3 months of development, Nxt's answer to Ethereum will be on public testnet very soon.


The date is published if you know where to look.

What are these ATs? Is this something like a direct debit or something like a trading bot?

Here it from the horses mouth here: http://www.nxtcommunity.org/nxt-podcast/whats-nxt-automated-transactions-explained


*Trustless* is the key word.


From http://ciyam.org/nxt/nxt_at.html, here are 3 examples.

****
Use Case #1: Lottery

Create a "lottery" program which will pay out its balance to a "winner" automatically once per week.

To purchase a "ticket" a Nxt user would send X NXT to the "lottery AT account" (where some of this amount may
be needed to pay for running the AT). The "ticket" itself would be the hashed result of the ticket owner's id
(i.e. account #) added with the block id that occurs 1440 blocks *after* the purchase block (as the id of the
block that far ahread is understood to be unpredictable, however, this needs thorough mathematical analysis).

Use Case #2: Dormant Funds Transfer

Create a program that if not notified before a certain period of time will transfer its funds to one specific
account. The notification mechanism will be via an AM transaction and the content of the AM (if not empty) is
a new address to payout to.

Use Case #3: Project Crowdfunding Agent

Create a program that will at a certain time check if it has a balance greater than or equal to a target that
was hard-coded into it. If the required balance level has been reached then all funds will be then sent to an
account hard-coded into it. If the required balance has not been met then each tx sender will be refunded the
amount they sent (tx fees may also need to be considered).
***

Will it offer every feature Ethereum promises?

Is there a public branch containing the AT code developed so far?

As well they seem to be increasingly breaking the law.  There's drugs and other illegal activity on the digital marketplace.   The asset exchange is bypassing the SEC.  NxT is now planning to bring in an illegal lottery and an illegal poker service.  The lead developer is hiding in a pseudo-Communist country called Belarus and even if he went full public he would never be prosecuted and if indicted wouldn't be expatriated to court in the United States.  If he does go to jail then it would be by the Belarusian authorities accusing him of laundering money or being involved with some kind of criminal activity.


 I think these are all barriers towards getting any recognition or investment from serious parties.  If you noticed on a lot of the crypto news websites - they refrain from mentioning NxT unless money gets stolen.



Not saying this as a good or a bad thing, rather apathetic about it.  NxT looks like it's aiming to be equivalent of a 4Chan Crypto currency and only time will tell if it will work.  

NxT used to be $90-$110 million at its' peak and I would be really surprised if it reclaims that former capitalization, more features or not.  NxT started to lose a lot of capitalization when the public became aware of its' distribution (alienation #1) and after the digital marketplace I noticed their capitalization actually went down (alienation #2.  Against predictions of it going up, probably because people didn't want to hold a coin that is used by drug dealers.  Could be comparable to how Bitcoin boomed after the Silkroad was shut down.).

Automated Transactions was an attempt to implement ideas similar to those discussed in early Ethereum discussions.

Ian Knowles (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/ian-knowles.html) and a Greek named Vasilis (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/vasilis.html) issued an asset called NxtAT that was somehow related to the production of these features.

NxtAT (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/nxtat.html) seems to have disappeared.  http://is.gd/mxGIU7

the current capitalization of NxtAT (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/nxtat.html) is roughly $486,000 USD.

the issuer account has, at the time of writing, a balance of 1,368,473.02 NXT.  https://nxtblocks.info/#section/accountId/NXT-RZ9H-H2XD-WTR3-B4WN2

I was the one who came out against Cointropolis (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/cointropolis.html).

At the time of my arrival and roughly a week or two into it, I really had no idea what was going on.  The moment I realized it was a ponzi scheme I posted here.  Then my problems started.

The entire incident involving jl777 transpired within a few weeks of meeting him.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but some people do still seem to be developing Automated Transactions (https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/600/).

AFAIK, Ethereum offers a Turing complete language to create smart contracts. Google tells me Ethereum says Ethereum has 0 features, it is a platform to build on.

In this respect, Nxt Automated Transactions is Ethereum. Nxt has a working product in alpha and not only slideshows. And Nxt is also a platform to build on by third party developers (see the famous work of JL777 for proof).



Additionally,


I) Ethereum will use it's own custom scripting language. When it is released, maybe a couple dozen people will be able to use it and create contracts in Ethereum. Nxt AT is written in low level language (machine code) and CIYAM himself says in the podcast above that it will take very little to convert to C initially and then other languages as they progress.

So within a few weeks of release, there is likely to be tens of thousands of existing programmer that already have the skills needed to write smart contracts in Nxt AT.  


ii) Ethereum always have to be Turing Complete with its transactions, it has all the bells and whistles in every transaction. This has a computational cost. Nxt AT just has Turing Complete transactions to be processed when it is necessary.

Think of Ethereum as the big RV, you can go camping and it has everything you need but popping into town to pick up a few things from the shops is laborious and cumbersome.

Think of Nxt as a fast sports car and Nxt AT as a trailer. Nxt sports car can be used for day to day transactions (popping to the shops), then you just hitch the Nxt At trailer onto Nxt when you need to for more complex turing complete transactions (like going camping).

Nxt AT is designed to be the best of both worlds.

I would give you a +1 if I could for doing your own research ;D

You might be interested in the machine code testing and results for Nxt AT: http://ciyam.org/nxt/

If you want more information on the innards, the best person to contact is btc2nxt at nxtforum.org. He is the one who most commonly gives updates in the thread you posted above.


Edit: Nevermind, I see you have already registered and asked questions

This project could be a BOOM for NXT.

Any date for the first "tests"?
Following closely!

15 Oct. It has been in private testing for a couple of months, it will be on public testnet on the 15th Oct.


https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg113168/#msg113168

15 Oct?
Sounds perfect!  ;D

Seems very similar to XCRs custom made blockchains. Can you explain the difference?

I think XCRs will see more developer use and support because of it's low cap high potential aswell as it hasn't dwelled into every bit of business and copied every idea out there in crypto there is, also can build what nxt build in it and vice versa. So I think both will find a nische in the market with XCR winning as it is the core function intended which will get most focus. Also not having a flawed initial distribution making new contributors/investors scared.

No harm meant in my post even though maybe it's phrased that way, good luck. Exciting

Any statements from Ian Knowles (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/ian-knowles.html) regarding this?

Give the money back thief!!!!

Thank you, that is extremely helpful.

You are welcome  ;D I have to say it is nice to have a civil discussion on BitcoinTrashTalk for a change.


You may also be interested in Smart Contracts by Come-from-Beyond >>> https://nxtforum.org/smart-contracts/express-your-wish-(smart-contracts)/

It's not Turing Complete but some devs argue that TC is OTT for most applications. This is a planned core-feature of Nxt but clashes with Nxt AT, which has created friction between the two projects.


Nxt also has a third implementation, "Community-checked Programmable Agreements" (catchy, yeah?  :D), previously named Semi-Automated Transactions >>> https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/semi-automated-transactions/

Again, not Turing complete but the argument in there covers why. Too technical for me but you might like it.



Why have so many of the same implementation? My understanding is that Smart Contracts was always a planned Nxt feature. Nxt AT was started by a third party dev, not knowing about Smart Contracts as it was unannounced at the time so there is overlap. Kushti is a part time core dev and his project is done as a third party dev. Third party devs can build what they like so if they see value in it, who are we to judge? Whatever happens, it is all still exciting



TL:DR Nxt has three implementations of Smart Contracts in development

i) Nxt AT (Turing Complete)
ii) Smart Contracts
iii) Community-checked Programmable Agreements (previously Semi-Automated Transactions)

Wow, awesome stuff, thanks again!

TC might be a bad idea, anyway.  Seems like any sufficiently powerful cryptocurrency may contain the seeds of its own destruction. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S47iWiKKvLA&feature=youtu.be#t=52m30s)

I think I know what you mean. There has been some thought to the problem of malicious scripts in Nxt AT and I understand the devs believe that they can contain the threat. I don't know what is discussed behind the scenes/devchat but publicly they plan to:

I) limit the access the Nxt AT Account to a subset of the NXT APIs and;
II) each cycle of the Nxt AT contract has a cost in Nxt so it can only run until the account runs out of money. It can't run forever and bloat the blockchain, an attacker would have to keep buying and sending Nxt to the malicious AT to keep it attacking.


Interestingly, L8rre argues here >>> https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/ats-with-fsm-based-dsl/msg30133/#msg30133

...that Turing Complete can't be Turing Complete as it can't calculate 1+Pi, it could only run forever and ever. Nxt AT above would be able to calculate this to as many decimal places as the Nxt in the account allowed. So is this really Turing Complete?  :D But I think Kushti clears up the definition later on down the thread (also note how Nxt forum tolerates clueless noobs like me, I learn a lot  ;D).

I realised there is another Turing Complete implementation in Nxt done by a third party developer.

It is for a specific subset of tasks and not meant to be as far reaching as Nxt AT AFAIK, I'll dig out the link...

 
This is epic. Could Nxt be the first ?

Watching. I would love to see a decentralized version of kickstarter  :)

Yes, I believe Nxt is the first to have a working product implemented (for historical accuracy, CIYAM is the inventor and made the first version of AT in C++ so that was first. Though I don't think it was ever 'in the wild' with public access. Nxt's implementation is in Java).

Look at the dates of the podcast, the OP and you'll see it has been in development for over 6 months. The testing from the last 3 months published in the link above. Soon it will be released for the public to play around with (and for more testing with people trying to break it  ;D).



The developers of Nxt AT are asking for bounties to implement AT in other coins so I imagine it will be similar to the Asset Exchange: Nxt will get the headstart but there will probably be others coming down the track*

The bonus of this is that you will be able to do "Atomic Cross Chain Transactions" between different coins that have AT implemented. This boils down to the AT acting as a trustless escrow, send your Nxt for another coin at a set price to the AT. If the other side doesn't send their side of the deal within x blocks, the AT will refund you. All decentralised and on two blockchains.

Or maybe the AT straddles both platforms with standing balances in both, so you would be trading directly with a algo driven robot who puts up the bids and asks  :o ;D I'm not sure of the implementation they have in mind.


I don't see why Smart Contracts or "Community Agreed..." couldn't do this use case (though don't quote me!) but Nxt AT contracts are Turing Complete. And Turing Complete contracts is what got people wetting their pants about in Ethereum.


 *(Nxt Asset Exchange trade amounts to $2.2 Million USD in the last 30 days at current low exchange rates, I'm not aware of another decentralised exchange comes close to that. Daily trade volume on the Asset Exchange is reasonably correlated and regularly exceeds that on Coinmarketcap, as it does today. Source: http://nxtreporting.com/assetcap.php)

The cost of attacking a coin generally depends on its market cap. For example, the more BTC is worth the more the block reward and transaction fees are worth, the more hash-power the network gets and the more expensive it becomes to acquire 51%. Similarly with PoS coins, the higher the market cap the more expensive buying 51% of stake is. So, if you want to build a feature on top of a block-chain, and you care about security, pick the one with the highest market cap. Last time I checked, Nxt's market cap was 60 times XCR's.

(I'm not getting at XCR especially. This argument gets used against Nxt, too. Some say everything should be built on top of Bitcoin because its market cap is so high.)

Has Ian Knowles actually made any statements lately regarding NxtAT (http://www.nxtscam.org/2014/10/nxtat.html)?

Is it still alive?

 :D :D :D
www.nxtscam.org

cute

Some time ago, Knowles said he's abandoning it due to disinterest from NXT core developers.  However, if you follow the link I gave above you'll see that NxtAT is still very much alive.  Presumably Knowles gave the funds to the developers who are continuing the project.  You might ask them for verification.

Ian has left NxtAt (hot off the press yesterday) presumably to implement AT in the first coin to meet the bounty. Vbecas and btc2nxt are developing NxtAT.


I don't usually acknowledge Bluemeanie but as he keeps intruding and adding nothing...


BM knows the state of AT, he follows nxtforum very closely. He is just trying to undermine it. He takes Nxt's positives and then tries to pillory them: Nxt itself > Jl777 > Supernet > Threatening Nxters with legal > Doxxing single mothers, trying to get them fired and now it looks like CIYAM is next.

I wouldn't recommend trying to enter a dialogue with him, he has a history of ignoring my posts and I haven't seen him answer a question yet. Or provide any evidence for anything he claims, working on the basis that "throw enough sh!t some of it will stick" rather than "this is my claim supported by evidence a, b, c...".

This is what he is trying to obfuscate > http://cointelegraph.com/news/112643/the-mystery-of-the-missing-1000000-nxt
BM acts as though it is an opinion piece but the blockchain doesn't lie and his promo messages are signed with his PGP signature. You can make up your own mind, everyone who has looked at the evidence is unanimous in their verdict.


Fortunately, this mud slinging tactic of his will only have an effect on those who don't do their own research. So you will be fine  ;D I haven't made it onto his 'enemies' list yet but it is only a matter of time. After all, I have publicly disagreed with him

Automated transactions for NXT could be huge!

I think it will be a slow burn to begin with but with it being implemented in other platforms, the user base could grow quickly.


I mentioned there was another Turing Complete implementation in Nxt:


https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/price-speculation/msg71681/#msg71681


Come-from-Beyond mentions that there is overlap between this and his Smart Contracts on the following page. This one would be hard to find if you didn't know it already existed, buried in a megathread.


So, Nxt's smart contract implementation:


i) Nxt AT (Turing Complete)
ii) Smart Contracts
iii) Community-checked Programmable Agreements (previously Semi-Automated Transactions)
iv) Nxt Tradebots (Turing Complete, previously named NxtCoinsCo)

Just to clarify a couple of points:

I returned all the NxtAT Asset units that had been sent to my account to the account that issued the Asset (which was never mine) as well as all my NXT (so in fact for the > 100 hours worth of work that I did I have kept only some BTC from private donators as I returned all the NXT that was *sent to me for my efforts helping both Vasilis and Adam*).

To be very clear - I no longer *do any work on the Nxt AT* implementation of AT (and I barely made more than about 3 BTC from the whole thing).

The current AT documentation can be found here: http://ciyam.org/at and you'll note I have been working on how to get AT to work with Bitcoin/Litecoin clones as well.

Please note that also *it was my invention* (and is coded in C++ *not* Java) and it has always been "open source".

I have strengthened my post in response to the "first implementation in Nxt?" above to make clear the credit you are due as being the inventor of AT.

I am personally grateful to you as one of my 'mentors' (willingly or not) that took me from crypto noob to not-so-crypto noob over the first 6 months or so at the start of the year. You always had time for my questioning, always dumbing down and rephrasing when needed  :D A lot of people are only just hearing "atomic cross chain transactions" but we have already been through a few rounds of description already for me to 'get it' (almost enough to put it in the glossary without fear of being wrong)  :D I am sad to see you go and hope in time there will be no lingering hard feelings between Nxt and your next projects.

Notice to interested Devs:


vbecas plans to release the code for NxtAT today for review.

He doesn't plan to run it on a testnet until the weekend, so that he can provide support for testers as he will be at home to deal with any error.


https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg117316/#msg117316

If you want to take part in the testnet, please go here >>> https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/msg117224/#msg117224

We are a go for NXT AT testnet launch tomorrow:


Follow the thread below:
https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/information-of-the-at-project/

Yes !! Great team !

There we go girls!!!!  :D

I regret to report a negative user experience; even allowing for the early phase of development.
 
After reading the posts here, I thought I'd give it spin. I read through the nxtforum posts, d/l'd the latest client, edited the conf file, fired up the testnet version and, well, ... that's about it really.

I was unable to find any instructions on how to obtain testnet NXT and, as all functionality is protected by a blanket 1NXT paywall, there's no way even to begin exploring the features, so I shut it down.

(The Java source has vanished, btw.)

Cheers

Graham

We are testing at the moment, but a few problems have been found and are being addressed as we speak.

If you want to see some info, just visit that link:

http://5.196.1.215:5876/test?requestTag=AT

If you want the code for running it just send me a pm to send you the link. If we have a lot of peers it would be more difficult to trace the "problems", so for now I keep it in just a few peers, for easier management.

Best Regards,

vbcs

Thanks for the link to the HTTP API, I found it clarified the context of what's on test. Thanks also for the kind offer of a link to the code, I can curb my curiosity until after you've shaken the bugs out and usefully re-address myself to the documentation.

Cheers

Graham

So far so good, ATs are live on the testnet and stable  :)

RE: Infinitie loops > ok