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H/t Aljazeera
More...http://www.infowars.com/death-toll-climbs-as-israel-bombards-gaza/ (http://www.infowars.com/death-toll-climbs-as-israel-bombards-gaza/)

I feel bad about every victim of crime, but i hate the most when there are kids included in those stats: "has climbed to at least 84, including a number of children". Thats just sick.

I hope Israel kills the Hamas and Jihad terrorists without harming civilians,but obviously thats not going to happen as every war takes innocent lives.

Israel PM Says Gaza Offensive to Intensify as Rockets Fly
More...http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-09/israel-aims-to-crush-hamas-military-as-cities-under-fire.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-09/israel-aims-to-crush-hamas-military-as-cities-under-fire.html)

What it shows is just how little both sides really care about peace when they constantly talk about it on television.

Don't talk bullshit, it really isn't all that hard to not shoot at someone.

peace for the palestinians is bending over and letting israel do whatever it wants with you.. while the U.S. holds their hands.

Report: Hamas Stunned By Israel’s Ass-Kicking, Expected Limited Response To Rocket Fire…





Despite fiery statements issued by Hamas spokesmen over the past 48 hours, it was obvious Tuesday night that the Islamist movement was searching for ways to rid itself of the current escalation.

Hamas feels that it has been forced into a confrontation with Israel – one that it did not want at this stage because of its increased isolation and financial crisis.

The massive Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip over the past 24 hours have surprised Hamas and other Palestinian groups. Hamas apparently expected a limited response to the recent rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns. But as the IDF intensified its strikes against Hamas targets – including the homes of some of its top commanders – it became clear to the movement’s leaders that Israel means business.

On Tuesday night, Hamas spokesmen were sending distress signals to various parties. The organization is concerned that if the IDF operation continues for another few days, the movement will pay a very heavy price – one that could even bring about an end to Hamas’s rule over the Gaza Strip.

Hamas accused Israel of “crossing all the redlines” by bombing the homes of its military commanders. This shows that Hamas did not expect Israel to take such a drastic move. Less than 24 hours after the beginning of the IDF offensive, Hamas talked about the need to return to the truce that was reached with Israel in 2012.

On Tuesday night, Hamas and other Palestinian groups appealed to Egypt and Arab countries to intervene to stop the IDF operation. Given Hamas’s bad relations with the Egyptian authorities, it’s unlikely that President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi would rush to save the movement that is openly aligned with his enemy, the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Hamass-distress-signals-362015

It is about a lot more than the holocaust. No one should be "touching" anyone else in that manner. When you launch rockets into cities you have to kind of expect a response.

Can you imagine living in such an area where this bombardment is a regular thing? Not just living but growing up where this is considered normal just be a complete nightmare for the non-combatants that call these places home.

Yes! It is hard to imagine, growing up under such conditions (http://www.newstalkflorida.com/israel-says-hamas-firing-rockets-every-ten-minutes/)

So, who is the aggressor?

The US media has lapped up the government narrative. Extremely one-sided.
Significant suffering on both sides that needs to be acknowledged.

The US media is confused in this case.  It's owned by the Jewish counsel, but it has leaned towards supporting everything Muslim in the last 5 years.  Guess the people up top will put their thumbs down.

I doubt Israel is targeting civilians on purpose. Unfortunately, especially with airstrikes, there WILL be collateral damage. How about the Palestinians quit firing rockets at Israel. As long as they're doing that, I can't blame Israel for retaliating. If they stopped and Israel continued, then I would have a problem with that. This whole area is ready to explode, unfortunately. If those rockets don't stop, I'd bet that Israel launches a ground invasion. That would be truly tragic and many innocents will die then as well.

I just think its insane that anyone would commit jihad suicide and seriously think 72 "virgins" await them in heaven. And think about the perspective of the virgins, is that their heaven??? Talk about a fairy tale!

Here is a joke for you :
A Muslim dies and goes to "heaven." An "angel" approaches the Muslim and says behind this door are your 72 virgins, enjoy. Excited, the Muslim rushes to open the door and sees 72 ugly, fat MEN! The Muslim runs out to complain to the Angel, hey where are my virgins?! The Angel says, they are virgins, and by the way, you're in Hell!!!

This article sounds like what Israel is doing is a bad thing. If this were any other country who was fighting back against the rockets that have been launched at them for over a week now. We would be cheering them on. But because it's Israel this is a bad thing? Maybe I'm reading this wrong. But that is what it sounds like to me

Well the people in South-East Ukraine / Novorossia had to learn to imagine it really fast...

Seems that Jews in Israel and Jews in the office in Kiev use the same tactics.

9 killed while watching World Cup as Israeli missile hits Gaza beach café (VIDEO, PHOTOS)
http://rt.com/news/171908-gaza-killed-world-cup/

How long has the killing been going on?

Isn't it surprising they never run out of people to kill?

... And the fact that those 72 virgins may not all be females... Or even humans... Just sayin'...

Western media have trouble with geography - again.

ABC airs Gaza bombing devastation images - says it's in Israel
http://rt.com/news/172080-gaza-israel-bombing-abc/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/11/israel-air-strikes-gaza-foreign-criticism-netanyahu


The UN's top human rights official has called for an investigation into Israeli air strikes on Gaza, on the grounds that the targeting of Palestinian homes – resulting in a high death toll among civilians, particularly children – could violate international law. The warning from Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, came on the fourth day of Israel's bombing of the Gaza Strip and a rocket barrage of Israel by Islamic militants.

However, the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, said his government would not be deflected by criticism from abroad, refusing to rule out a ground offensive and vowing there would be more air strikes. So far more than 100 Palestinians have been killed, mostly civilians, including at least 23 children. More than 670 have been injured. There have as yet been no Israeli fatalities.

Pillay said her office had received "deeply disturbing reports that many of the civilian casualties, including children, occurred as a result of strikes on homes" in Gaza. "Such reports raise serious doubt about whether the Israeli strikes have been in accordance with international humanitarian law and international human rights law."

Pillay added that the "indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza" could also constitute a breach.

"Every alleged breach of international law must be promptly, independently, thoroughly and effectively investigated, with a view to ensuring justice and reparations for the victims," she said.

Netanyahu shrugged off foreign criticism and said the Israeli bombing would continue unabated. "No international pressure will prevent us from acting with all power," he said, claiming to have had "good conversations" with several world leaders in recent days, including Barack Obama and European heads of government. He claimed Israeli planes and drones had attacked more than 1,000 targets in Gaza so far this week, adding, "there are still more to go". The Israeli prime minister said Israel had already struck Gaza with twice the force used during the last offensive of its kind in 2012, and he would not rule out following the air campaign with an incursion by ground troops. "We are weighing all possibilities and preparing for all possibilities," he said.

Israeli forces have been warning of imminent air strikes with the use of mobile phone texts and warning shots on the roofs of targeted buildings, but children are believed to constitute such a high proportion of the dead partly because they are often the most afraid to leave their homes while their neighbourhoods are being bombed. When Pillay visited Gaza and Israel in 2011 in the wake of a similar exchange of fire, she said that both Hamas and the Israeli government should be held liable for war crimes and that Israeli forces had committed crimes against humanity.

"Israel, Hamas, and Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have been down this road before, and it has led only to death, destruction, distrust and a painful prolongation of the conflict," Pillay said on Friday. UN officials said the current air strikes would have to be investigated further before a judgment on potential war crimes could be made.

Israel was reported to have been hit by 809 rockets and 61 mortars from Gaza this week. While nobody has been killed, according to local media reports, nine Israeli civilians have so far been hurt in the scramble to take cover after air-raid sirens. Jens Laerke, spokesman of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), told journalists: "More than 340 housing units in Gaza have been severely damaged or completely destroyed. As a result, more than 2,000 people have been displaced.

"Our aid workers on the ground report that people in Gaza are gripped by fear, the streets are empty and the shops are closed."

Oh, didn't you hear? Those were Palestinian suicide homes ramming themselves into peaceful Israeli bulldozers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3by9FoEFB8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3by9FoEFB8)). :P

Now, seriously, when I hear people defending Israel's every move in all this, I can't help but wonder what they would do if they were in the Palestinian's place. I mean, driven out of your homes; having your people's land and water supplies constantly stolen from you; the economy purposefully kept on the brink of collapse, just slightly above a humanitarian crisis, by the occupying power; and being beaten or killed if you look at the nearest Israeli soldier the wrong way. Doesn't sound like a fun place to me.

Not that any of this justifies attacking civilians in retaliation, but I think many people here completely fail at putting themselves in others' shoes.

Death to liars and deceivers.

Death to these 'palestinians' and their criminal ways that wrap the truth while clearly ignoring their own faults that dwarfs the mistake of israel.

Hard to receive what you try to dish out eh?

You made your bed when you stole. Crawl back to jordan or syria or lebanon and leave the jews to their place on earth. Let me squat in your house for a change. I might use your women while I'm at it :)

Why is it that nobody gives a damn about palestinian lives lost?
Life is life surely
Hope things cool off soon, what's going on is scary

"When you have to carry you own daughter to a hospital in a pool of blood, you are in Gaza."

That statement is now scarily applicable to Novorossia as well.

Israel-Palestine is really just a non-ending shithole of hate and retaliation killings for decades. Both sides are guilty, and both need to let it go and work out their territorial disputes through compromise.

Don't forget Israel phone call Palestinian before fire. Hamas said Israel call random people and they will not fire...
Hamas fire rocket from civil building with family so Israel fire back one them, it's a war crime...
Sometimes Hamas even lock building door to be sure civilian will be killed...

Ahh I really disagree in the way Jews handle this.
They have one of the most advanced anti air systems, while Hamas has some poor rockets.
Therefore, the Palestinians can't harm the Jews.
For every launched rocket, the Jews will launch their aircraft and bombard the Palestinians.
That is unfair. The Jews need to stop that shit. They are killing little kids. PERIOD

hamas do whatever they can to help it happen...

The palistines are keeping their army mixed in with civilians forcing collateral damage when Israel tries to defend itself.

for the UN Gaza still an Egyptian territory, so hamas is not an army but a terrorist militia...

If you mean the 100.000 that were apparently told to leave their homes in Gaza, perhaps a prelude to another ground invasion, you're missing a couple of things there. The vast majority of those living there are already refugees; they are already displaced. Also, there are no shelters in Gaza, and Egypt will almost certainly not let them leave; there is nowhere else for them to go. It makes for nice propaganda to say that, but it serves no practical purpose.

Also, again contrary to this idea that Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has put out a statement saying that "the targeting and destruction of residential properties in Gaza is the main cause of civilian casualties". And notice, Israel is targeting the homes of people suspected of being involved in attacks. Again I stress, these are suspects that they are killing; maybe they're guilty, maybe they're innocent, but they die either way, sometimes along with their whole family in the process. And then there are other attacks like the one on Tuesday in which an Israeli missile hit a busy intersection near the main market, or the attack on a cafe by the beach in which people were watching the world cup, which killed I don't know how many civilians needlessly. And this to say nothing of the day to day lives of Palestinians, when the cameras aren't there.

These are war crimes. And so is intentionally keeping the economy of the occupied territories on the brink of collapse, or if you will, according to Israeli officials themselves, just slightly above a humanitarian crisis.

Do us both a favor before you answer; see this video (it's 8 minutes long): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX6XWwnago (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX6XWwnago). My sentiments mirror his: I'm not saying these things because I don't like Israel or some such; I'm saying it because I see that this can't possibly end well for either side, and would really like to not see that happen.

Regardless of how you define hamas they are still mixing their "fighters" and weapons in with the civilian population.

They are good at asymmetric war, more Israel kill civilian cause of them more world will have sympathy for them, and sadly it work, this thread prove it.

And you guys are just avoiding the issues; the main problem here isn't where Hamas has it's forces (not saying I like it), as I've just gave examples of, Israel doesn't care either way and is more than capable of attacking civilians on its own, not to mention the conditions it forces on the occupied territories.

If you're serious about this, address my previous comment:

Yes, i will answer it if i find the time, i come here to distract me i don't feel any obligation to answer your post...

First, you say that Israel kill people "suspected" of being terrorist, but how do you want to make a trial for them ? you support ground operation ?

That's fine of course, but remember that if you're answering without taking those things into consideration, it's hard to take you seriously.


The two options that are implicit there aren't the only possible alternatives: it isn't only either kill them, guilty or not, along with anyone nearby; or invade the territories, causing even more deaths, so that you can capture them and determine their guilt. That's a fallacy.

These attacks don't happen without there being a context to them, an underlying set of problems; so address those problems first and perhaps there will be a way to reach a peaceful settlement. As I said in previous posts, the way I see it, the best alternative would be to stop expanding settlements immediately; retreat from the occupied territories as much as possible; stop the blockade of the occupied territories to avoid an humanitarian crisis; stop these largely one sided military offensives; and return to the negotiating table.

After a peaceful settlement has been reached you can hunt for the criminals in either side to your heart's content.

that's a fairy tail, they will disappear. If you don't want judge them just tell it...

Perhaps it is a fairy tale, perhaps it isn't. And on the Palestinians' side, they would also complain that there is no way that the Israeli leadership is going to be held accountable for their crimes. But what you have to ask yourself is, what alternatives are there? Killing more civilians by bombing houses of suspects, or killing a whole lot more civilians in a ground invasion? This is insane; it will never end.

I purpose Hamas stop maximize the number of civilian victims. You really trust the Hamas try to avoid Palestinian victims ?

I've never said that Hamas tries to avoid Palestinian victims, but rather that this isn't the main issue here. As I've just posted, these attacks don't happen in a vacuum; there are underlying causes to them which need to be addressed if you want peace: namely the occupation and the terrible conditions in which the people there are being kept (by Israeli officials' own words, just slightly above a humanitarian crisis).

Plus, the argument you're making there is that it's fundamentally right for Israel to kill suspects and their families; whether or not Hamas helps increase the number of victims, that's the reasoning there. Well, the UN has the following to say about this, which I had previously posted (in the post you've refused to answer):

That was not my point, i try to show your double-standard. Hamas can do whatever crime they want cause they "defend" the Palestinian, even kill random Israeli and Palestinian, and when tsahal try to protect Israeli they must do whatever they can to protect Palestinian too.

-Is Hamas representative of the politic Palestinian want ? what give them the right to act in the name of Palestinian ? In my TV i see a Palestinian mother crying and saying "Hamas must stop fire Israel now cause they fire back", is she used by some jews conspiracy ? Is she wrong ?

-If Hamas really defend Palestinian, why they try to maximize Palestinian victims ? Maybe they are just a brunch of terrorist funded by Arab country to keep pressure on Israel ? Why Arab country don't want negotiate fairly with Israel and ask always for something they are sure they will not get to fail the negotiation ?

-Is tsahal the regular Israeli army and their job is to defend Israeli citizen ? If it's really a war why they should find a way to judge people who don't abdicate rather than kill them ? In a war you don't kill your enemy ?

-Why the "father" of Palestinian to not grant full right to the Palestinian who live on their soil for generation ? Why they do not authorize gaza people to come rather than stay under bomb ? Maybe they don't give a fuck about Palestinian ?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Hamas' actions here; as I've told you in the other thread, there is plenty of wrongdoing on every side.

But if you want to eventually find an end to this conflict, you have to look at the broader picture, and evaluating both sides here as being on equal footing is unrealistic. Israel is a far more powerful state and the occupying power here; it has far more choices at its disposal than the Palestinians. Even when it comes to the use of force, it's completely disproportionate; just look at the number of casualties on either side for example - and that not considering the victims in day to day life in the occupied territories. Basically, Palestinians don't pose an existential threat to Israel; but Israel poses an existential threat to Palestinians: for the nth time, Israel is purposefully keeping the Palestinians' situation just slightly above the level of humanitarian disaster (by their own words). This is why I'm criticizing Israel's actions; because they can actually do something to stop this conflict. On the other hand, what do you expect the Palestinians to do exactly? What can they do if they're already barely surviving day to day? The best some of them can do is launch rockets and hope to actually hit something; it's that pathetic.


As I wrote just in the previous post, Israel doesn't need Hamas to make it look bad, when it comes to killing civilians: "[...] again contrary to this idea that Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has put out a statement saying that 'the targeting and destruction of residential properties in Gaza is the main cause of civilian casualties'. [...]". Also, as I said in the discussion we had in the other thread, there is no other country that doesn't want peace except Israel and the US; practically every other country considers the 1967 borders as a fair starting point for the peace talks. Israel is the occupying country here, in violation of international law.


This isn't a war, it's a slaughter; the distribution of forces is almost completely one-sided. Also, I guess I haven't stressed this enough: they aren't killing enemy combatants; they're killing people they suspect of being combatants, along with everyone nearby, which more often than not translates into family members dying as well.

Further, you continue to ignore that there are other possibilities to dealing with this, other than killing people. Remove the circumstances that give rise to the violence, namely, the occupation and the horrible conditions forced on the territories, and you'll be a lot closer to a peaceful settlement. Remember, Israel is the occupying power here.

1.I don't see Palestinian firing rocket, i see terrorist firing rocket. That's the problem, who represent the Palestinian ? Is the UN representative of Palestinian ? Is the Arab league ? Do you really think Maliki, Krichner, al-Thani or Abe give a fuck about what happen or just defend there own interest ? Why do they ask for something Israel won't accept ? You really think China will cancel his Israeli technology deal for Palestinian ? Is the Hamas representative

I'm sure Palestinian would prefer peace now with actual border rather than 10 more year of war for few square kilometer of land. But we don't know, the people who "represent" Palestinian never put a foot in Gaza or west bank... Why do you insist so much for this land, you really think it's so important for the average Palestinian ? And why we never speak about civil right of Palestinian in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon ?

2.See one. I'm sure you would prefer thousand more death than give more land to Israeli, as i said other country don't give a fuck and just want bore USA... Every anti-Zionist i talked with was far more jews hater than concerned by humanitarian problem... I'm sorry for this appeal to motive but i must ask you, the 1967 border seem so important even if you know it won't happen. More you wait more Israel will go forward, wouldn't be smarter to have peace with actual border ?

3.It's an asymmetric war. And you forget the legit army are Egyptian army and Jordan army. Hamas is not an army but a brunch of terrorist in a territory where the legit government decided to let anarchy... Why do Egypt and Jordan don't protect the Palestinian ?

I think that Hamas is trying to maximize civilian victims in order to make Israel look bad to the rest of the world. They have always targeted civilians and have no intention of ever having any kind of peace.

This all started from the kidnapping right? I remember the outrage it sparked within the Jewish community here at the home front of the east coast.

Yes.

Blood for gas: Why Bibi is punishing Gaza
http://rt.com/op-edge/172524-bibi-punishing-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/



And here is where manslaughter in Ukraine and murders in Palestine connect:

BS, near of every neighbor of Israel has gas, why would they mad if Gaza have ?

And Gaza still a part of Egypt, why Egypt army don't come in Gaza, secure the zone (this include obviously fighting Hamas...) then have the gas ?

There's an estimated 1.4 trillion cubic feet ($4 billion worth) of natural gas off the coast of Gaza, which is why the crazy zionists are determined to wipe out the Palestinians living there.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

"Israel's defence minister has confirmed that military plans to 'uproot Hamas' are about dominating Gaza's gas reserves"

You are a fucking hypocrite, from your article:

"Mark Turner, founder of the Research Journalism Initiative, reported that the siege of Gaza and ensuing military pressure was designed to "eliminate" Hamas as "a viable political entity in Gaza" to generate a "political climate" conducive to a gas deal. This involved rehabilitating the defeated Fatah as the dominant political player in the West Bank, and "leveraging political tensions between the two parties, arming forces loyal to Abbas and the selective resumption of financial aid."

 ::)

Does Hamas mean Palestinian ?

And in comment:

"Nonsense. With the recent discoveries located in Israel's territorial waters, Israel's natural gas reserves are estimated to be in excess of 30 trillion cubic feet. Developed responsibly, they should satisfy internal demands for energy for decades to come. Israel has reached an agreement with Cyprus which has delineated their maritime boundaries. Lebanon made some claims to Israel's discoveries but later retracted them because they knew they couldn't win them. Israel and Syria do not share a maritime boundary so not sure why you would bring this into the discussion. If anything, it will be Syria and Lebanon locked into a dispute over their respective maritime boundaries. If Egypt can sell gas to Israel after having fought several wars with them - I don't see why the Palestinians can't either.

I'm all for Palestinians developing their resources on their lands (and waters) once a respectable peace is achieved. But note though that the 1.4 trillion cubic feet of nat gas off of Gaza is a very small reserve that will be depleted very quickly."

Then why did Israel evacuated its military and settlements from Gaza in 2005?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians,they would have already done that. But,they didnt,and the Palestinian population is only growing.

Yes, and maybe they want to escape Gaza and go to Egypt (do not forget it's their country...) but their "father" do not give them the right...

No idea mate, Israel's got enough nukes the turn the whole Middle East into glass.

If there is some big hole in your logic maybe it's because your logic is flawed ?

Right; the "Israel has no negotiating partner to solve this conflict" line. Well, it would be easier to answer this question if there could actually be democratic elections without external interference in Palestine. In the closest thing to a free democratic election the Palestinians were given the chance to run, in 2006, Hamas won despite having many of its members imprisoned, or refused the right to campaign. And then, it turns out that the whole US and Israeli (mainly) training, arming and readying the opposition (Fatah) for a coup, doesn't do much for democracy either. But, long story short, Hamas have so far been the representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza, while the Palestinian Authority have been the representatives of the Palestinian people in the West Bank - with recent events however, the new unity government is the true representative.

Still, what does representation, or lack thereof, have to do with the need for Israel to comply with international law and provide Palestinians with basic human rights? And if you want to stop seeing terrorists firing rockets, it's easy (I've said this before): stop forcing Palestinians to live in horrible, sub-human conditions, and the support for extremist tactics will disappear.



Is Israel above international law? Also, why do they ask for a peace settlement that seems fair to practically everyone except the US and Israel - is that what you're asking?

Also, see the following point:



Actually, it might surprise you to know that no, from what I've gathered so far, land isn't the main issue to Palestinians; it's their basic human rights, also known as, not being treated like animals. And there is an assumption in your post that Israel wants peace: well, with the continued expansion of settlements (even during peace talks, effectively sabotaging them), demolition of Palestinian homes, building of permanent checkpoints well inside occupied territories, appropriation of farmland and water resources vital for the survival of the Palestinian population, interference with internal Palestinian politics, and the separation and isolation of Gaza and the West Bank, I see no reason to believe Israel is interested in peace in the form of a two state solution. It seems to me to be more interested in keeping the illusion of a peace process, while continually stalling its progress, and pushing for additional settlements and land grabs.

Further, even if both parties would agree to such an arrangement, with current land divisions it could lead to a nonviable Palestinian state, perhaps like the Bantustans in South African Apartheid - in other words, a deeply impoverished population, with limited access to basic resources, heavily dependent on the outside, rife with corruption and a source of "guest workers" (read, pretty much slaves). Of course, if you're paying attention, this is already close to what the conditions Israel is imposing on the occupied territories resemble (except the part of the slaves I guess; last I checked, they use Chinese "slaves" now, not Palestinians "slaves" anymore). And in the end, I don't see how this would weaken extremist positions among Palestinians, since their living conditions wouldn't really improve - a continuation of the conflict would be the most likely outcome. For this to work, it would have to form two viable states; not necessarily along the 1967 borders, mind you, but certainly with that starting point, which in a sense is already a previous Palestinian concession, I should add.

Now, assuming Israel could actually respect Palestinian rights, a one state solution could be a possibility; Israel takes complete control over the whole territory and the Palestinian population is fully integrated into the society. Unfortunately, Israel is unwilling to take this path, claiming it conflicts with the "Jewish nature" of their state - so much for democratic principles.



Right, the antisemitic card now - I was wondering when that would come up. I shouldn't really have to say this, but for the record, I couldn't care less if you're a Jew, Arab, Martian or whatever; what Israel is doing is wrong, and I'm calling you and others here out for defending it, without bothering to try and understand the situation first. And then, there you go again, dismissing the position of practically every other country without understanding it or even looking into it, for the simple fact that it doesn't conform to your views. This isn't a logical stance, and there is no massive international conspiracy against Israel either - Israel is digging that hole as we "speak", the longer it violates the rights of Palestinians.

See the previous point, as to why the current borders are not a likely scenario, if not for violating international law, at least for posing a threat to the survival of an eventual autonomous Palestinian state - even if Israel would accept it, which is unlikely in my view, as expressed above.



It isn't China that will cancel anything - it's Israel under pressure from the US. Do you really think the US would let either weapons sales it didn't approve of to go through, or control over the Middle East to erode further? Don't kid yourself: the US is only interested in Israel as long as it does as it's told; if it refuses, at the very least, Israel would be immediately placed under sanctions and the US' support in the region would shift to another more willing client state, to help enforce its will in the region. And this is another reason why it's so important that Israel settles its differences with its neighbors as soon as possible, if it has any intentions of ever being truly independent in the future, instead of a glorified American military base.



Is the way Israel treats the Palestinian population in the occupied territories linked to how other countries treat them? This is again a fallacy - but alright, I'll indulge you.

The conditions of Palestinian refugees in other countries vary considerably. In Jordan at least, they have mostly been assimilated into the society and most given citizenship, though there are still Palestinian refugee camps which seem to be mostly slums at the moment. However, there is still discrimination against Palestinians there. In other countries the situation is worse, in my view largely because of the refusal of authorities to give the possibility of citizenship to the refugees; so they are under very poor social and economic conditions, no doubt, and mostly limited to refugee camps.

Unfortunately, this doesn't even begin to compare to how bad the situation in the occupied territories is. Perhaps it didn't register with you on the many other times I mentioned it, but I'll repeat it here nonetheless (I mean, at some point you might actually read about it and look into this): Israel's policy towards the occupied territories has been to keep the Palestinian population at a level as consistent as possible with an humanitarian crisis, without pushing it over the edge completely. The documents containing Israeli officials asserting this intention are now public thanks to Wikileaks, so it should be fairly common knowledge.

Among many other things, this translates to the majority of the population subsisting at poverty level, often with no more than one daily meal; malnutrition and anemia are common, in some cases leading to stunted growth in children. Access to healthcare is also poor in many cases. Then in Gaza, there is open sewage and contaminated water thanks to Israeli attacks on infrastructure, and the population is effectively forced to rely almost exclusively on foreign aid so they don't starve.

And then, there is actual violence. When you're not killed in a military operation for being a suspected Hamas supporter or the family member of one or unlucky to be near enough to one, you're still subject to more or less arbitrary beatings by security forces, sometimes murder, imprisonment (many of whom children), sometimes under administrative detention, which means they can make up any reason whatsoever to keep you in jail, and even torture.
 


Both Egypt and Jordan renounced any claim to the territories in favor of the formation of an autonomous Palestinian government. Well, it turns out Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinians, so like it or not, it appears they are the legitimate government - with recent events, if the new unity government survives, it in turn will be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. As to why Egypt and Jordan don't protect the Palestinians, it might be relevant to point out that Egypt, for example, receives over 20 billion dollars every year from the US and would most likely want to continue receiving it - in short, mostly economic and political reasons. As I said, there is plenty of blame to throw around; but it's still Israel doing the most harm here.

And again, call the conflict by whatever definition makes you feel better about it, but at the end of the day, it's a slaughter in which suspects and their families are being killed by Israel as an occupying power, and the rest are kept at a bare minimum level of survival.