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Title: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Octavius on July 17, 2014, 12:28:22 AM I have a simple question.
Let's take an example: There 3 active clients on the network right now. - Wallet A holds 10 coins - Wallet B holds 10 coins - Wallet C holds 100 coins Wallet C sends 100 coins, who will validate transactions? Bitcoin miners help keep the Bitcoin network secure, but how secure are PoS coins? If Wallet A or B can validate transactions, that means PoS is vulnerable to important security flaws? Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: darkota on July 17, 2014, 03:49:35 AM No, they are not reliable. As you can see, Vericoin had to be rolled back because the attacker got 30% of all Vericoins.
Navajocoin, another PoS coin, was recently doublespent or Nothing at Staked attacked, twice, when Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Yakamoto on July 17, 2014, 03:53:25 AM No, they are not reliable. As you can see, Vericoin had to be rolled back because the attacker got 30% of all Vericoins. And this nicely sums up why most people prefer PoW over PoS. When stuff like this happens, it's bad. And it's not hard either. Most hacks are easier than they're choked up to be, all you need is good software or a lot of luck. Or good methods if spotting vulnerabilities.Navajocoin, another PoS coin, was recently doublespent or Nothing at Staked attacked, twice, when he gained over 50% of all Navajocoins. I cannot stand beside PoS coins, as they always seem to be the greatest scam ever. Until we either fix it or come up with a new Proof system, I can only support PoW. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: stealth923 on July 17, 2014, 04:41:07 AM proof is in the pudding. Dont care what any PoS shill says....its vulnerabilities are too big for mainstream.
I wont support Proof of stake anymore. If I was an exchange I would sure as hell stake the coins for more profit. Yes you can get a shitload of hardware to try and 51% PoW but good luck getting past pool operators who will restrict. Look at GHASH.io's latest statement, they will never breach 40% for bitcoin. http://www.coindesk.com/ghash-commits-40-hashrate-cap-bitcoin-mining-summit/ PoS = dead Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: El Dude on July 17, 2014, 06:34:11 AM Pos is a fail
Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: sillybear on July 17, 2014, 07:16:46 AM Yeah
No, they are not reliable. As you can see, Vericoin had to be rolled back because the attacker got 30% of all Vericoins. And this nicely sums up why most people prefer PoW over PoS. When stuff like this happens, it's bad. And it's not hard either. Most hacks are easier than they're choked up to be, all you need is good software or a lot of luck. Or good methods if spotting vulnerabilities.Navajocoin, another PoS coin, was recently doublespent or Nothing at Staked attacked, twice, when he gained over 50% of all Navajocoins. I cannot stand beside PoS coins, as they always seem to be the greatest scam ever. Until we either fix it or come up with a new Proof system, I can only support PoW. Yeah. PoW has no flaw and we should all trust mining pool. (esp eligius.st) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95401.0 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/o6qwx/lukejr_attacks_and_kills_coiledcoin_altcurrency/ http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3472/what-is-the-story-behind-the-attack-on-coiledcoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56675.msg678006#msg678006 Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 17, 2014, 07:35:40 AM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW.
Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 17, 2014, 09:23:22 AM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: henryjames1003 on July 17, 2014, 10:15:41 AM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. and how pos(One of the implementations) can deal with the situation in OP's thread? Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 17, 2014, 10:38:15 AM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. and how pos(One of the implementations) can deal with the situation in OP's thread? As i know the network forges blocks and results in a blockchain that is similar in function to how we use blockchains in PoW currencies now. If one person on the network did have over 50% of the coins then it would not be secure, in the same way that if one miner had over 50% of the network on a PoW coin they could mount an attack. In PoS people forge blocks with their stake and in PoW people mine blocks by finding the correct hash to mine the next block in the blockchain. Someone who has a better technical understanding about PoS than I can probably explain it better. I just follow along the debate as a layman and try to think about the practical applications. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 17, 2014, 10:55:17 AM I have a simple question. Wallet C sends 100 coins, who will validate transactions?Let's take an example: There 3 active clients on the network right now. - Wallet A holds 10 coins - Wallet B holds 10 coins - Wallet C holds 100 coins Wallet C sends 100 coins, who will validate transactions? Bitcoin miners help keep the Bitcoin network secure, but how secure are PoS coins? If Wallet A or B can validate transactions, that means PoS is vulnerable to important security flaws? straight answer from POS developer: - Wallet A and Wallet B have equal chance. - 50% if A and 50% if B Bitcoin miners help keep the Bitcoin network secure, but how secure are PoS coins? On-line coins secure network they are like mining machines. POS is secure as they holders are. More staking nodes you have then better for POS security. Size of wallets also has matter. NXT have diffident build than PPC family (note: PPC in not pure POS today like BC VRC XC ). How see networks of particular coins. More nodes better. https://i.imgur.com/oQQNQuY.jpg to add more secure and BIG nettwork(more coins) is the faster transactions you will have look: https://i.imgur.com/RCK36V2.jpg Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Lieji on July 17, 2014, 11:55:21 AM Yeah No, they are not reliable. As you can see, Vericoin had to be rolled back because the attacker got 30% of all Vericoins. And this nicely sums up why most people prefer PoW over PoS. When stuff like this happens, it's bad. And it's not hard either. Most hacks are easier than they're choked up to be, all you need is good software or a lot of luck. Or good methods if spotting vulnerabilities.Navajocoin, another PoS coin, was recently doublespent or Nothing at Staked attacked, twice, when he gained over 50% of all Navajocoins. I cannot stand beside PoS coins, as they always seem to be the greatest scam ever. Until we either fix it or come up with a new Proof system, I can only support PoW. Yeah. PoW has no flaw and we should all trust mining pool. (esp eligius.st) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95401.0 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/o6qwx/lukejr_attacks_and_kills_coiledcoin_altcurrency/ http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3472/what-is-the-story-behind-the-attack-on-coiledcoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56675.msg678006#msg678006 You registered a new bitcointalk account to make this post lol. ;) Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: BitJohn on July 17, 2014, 12:09:26 PM PoS coins are still the most secure the Vericoin attack says nothing about the security of these coins. In fact with only 30% of the coins still no reason to roll it back. So to answer the question yes Proof of Stake is a great concept.
Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 17, 2014, 12:20:35 PM Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable?
Summary: Yes but only strong POS networks. To be fair now days new POS coins are kept mostly in Bittrex lets say sometimes i see 50% of all in order book !!!! If 97% of coins are kept probably on exchange ( bittrex and POS new stars… ) when you will buy 2% of 1m coin for 400 sat…0,08BTC You can play god of their network… and 51% attack have 100% chance. People are just greed they produce coins which will never have security because of lack community to support it But same is with POW coin who have network hash rate 10mhs-300mhs scrypt… Same rules are here and there… just look: http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency/?sort=hashrate&dir=asc one KNC titan 300MHS can wipe 30+ networks… While to hit POS you need buy coins depends on coinmarketcap that can be easy or hard... Real POS coins like PPC(someday pure POS) BC FTC have secure POS networks today while some newer clones needs some time or they won't have never it security all depends on people how they secure network IN VRC situation is that they decided to put 30% of all in ONE place they risked a lot. Coins with high network weith and many nodes i wil consider as safe. http://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/nodes-ppc-bc-xc-ftc-nvc.html Important in POS are p2p networks exchanges, markets, smart contracts and people who will use them. When those solutions will be popular POS networks will be more secure and faster. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: darkota on July 17, 2014, 07:17:29 PM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Brilliantrocket on July 17, 2014, 07:23:41 PM PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money.
Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 17, 2014, 07:24:54 PM PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money. Here is one with miner mentality. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Brilliantrocket on July 17, 2014, 07:28:25 PM PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money. Here is one with miner mentality. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Brilliantrocket on July 17, 2014, 07:30:16 PM In particular
The other attacks you describe all derive from the fundamental reason I declared all non-proof-of-work systems to be insecure back in April. My logic was mathematically fundamental. The input entropy set is quite deterministic and well known and thus can be preimaged. For example, accumulating a lot of coin-days-destroyed and then targeting them in clever ways to subvert the security. The randomness (entropy) of each proof-of-work is fundamental and mathematical and it can not be preimaged. It can only be surely defeated with > 50% of the network hash rate. Note I recently offered what I believe to a solution to the selfish-mining attack (the one at hackingdistributed.com that claims 25 - 35% attack). I am skeptical that you can characterize all possible attack vectors of proof-of-stake in one coherent mathematical proof. Thus you will not know formally what the security is; instead a list of adhoc attacks and counter-measures. Nevertheless I am not bagging on Peercoin. Everyone should be free to decide for themselves which coin they prefer. Perhaps there are unknown attacks on Bitcoin as well, yet I am somewhat comforted by the clear math for security of proof-of-work. I will not say I will never be convinced to support a non-proof-of-work coin, I will correct myself if someone explains such a system convincingly. It is on my TODO list to study more Peercoin. Edit: Perhaps coin-days-destroyed in some attack vectors motivates not transacting for long periods of time. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 17, 2014, 07:43:00 PM .... A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit. ONCE AGAIN. Cheap coins who are in 90% kept on bittrex to sell on pump are valuable because none protect network! attacker can have 2% of all coins and make 51% attack... when coin don't use solution from POS2.0 is even more valuable to such attacks. In POS2.0 you cannot generate "more mining power being offline" only online coins can get coin age. so problem with "owning 50% of all coins temporarily" is minimal and much harder to exploit... Navajo is not protected because of no one is staking... Not using POS2.0 make it even more valuable to attack. Now look at similar POW coins if you rent mining ring 100Mhs you can attack 18coins with 51%... http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency?sort=hashrate&dir=asc Same situation like with POS shitcoins who no one protect... Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: darkota on July 17, 2014, 07:44:55 PM .... A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit. ONCE AGAIN. Cheap coins who are in 90% kept on bittrex to sell on pump are valuable because none protect network! attacker can have 2% of all coins and make 51% attack... when coin don't use solution from POS2.0 is even more valuable to such attacks. In POS2.0 you cannot generate "more mining power being offline" only online coins can get coin age. so problem with "owning 50% of all coins temporarily" is minimal and much harder to exploit... Navajo is not protected because of no one is staking... Not using POS2.0 make it even more valuable to attack. Now look at similar POW coins if you rent mining ring 100Mhs you can attack 18coins with 51%... http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency?sort=hashrate&dir=asc Same situation like with POS shitcoins who no one protect... Sir, you obviously don't get the point. The point is, with PoS, if you acquire 50% of all coins, you will ALWAYS be able to do a doublespend attack, whether you still have the 50% of coins or not. With PoW, you can only doublespend for the amount of time you are above 50% hashrate. Again, PoS=Piece of Shit. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 17, 2014, 07:46:33 PM My logic was mathematically fundamental. The input entropy set is quite deterministic and well known and thus can be preimaged. For example, accumulating a lot of coin-days-destroyed and then targeting them in clever ways to subvert the security. ... In POS2.0 you can not accumulating a lot of coin-days being offline. Only online coins can accumulate. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 17, 2014, 07:48:08 PM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit. That's like saying Bitcoin and all other PoW coins are a piece of shit because lukejr 50% attacked coiledcoin a while back. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: darkota on July 17, 2014, 07:56:06 PM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit. That's like saying Bitcoin and all other PoW coins are a piece of shit because lukejr 50% attacked coiledcoin a while back. In a way, but the difference is you can only doublespend on Bitcoin if you have 50% or above hashrate(even then its not 100% that youll succeed), with PoS, you can doublespend when you have 50% coins, and even when you dont have 50% of the coins anymore. So once you get 50%, you will always be able to doublespend, at any point in the future.. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 17, 2014, 08:12:08 PM .... In a way, but the difference is you can only doublespend on Bitcoin if you have 50% or above hashrate(even then its not 100% that youll succeed), with PoS, you can doublespend when you have 50% coins, and even when you dont have 50% of the coins anymore. So once you get 50%, you will always be able to doublespend, at any point in the future.. no man.... this not goes that way.... i was talking to POS dev if you have 2 addresses A = 50% B =50% they have equal chance to stake... who will win is random. dont forget coin age parameter... A adress have 50% of all coins... ( 50% mine block chance ) B adress have 25% of all coins... ( 25% staking chance ) day 1. A adress have 50% of all coins... ( 50% mine block chance ) adress A mine blok B adress have 25% of all coins... ( 25% staking chance ) + 1 coin age day 2. A adress have 50% of all coins... ( 50% mine block chance ) adress A mine blok + 1 coin age B adress have 25% of all coins... ( 50% staking chance coinage parameter kicks in and reset)... .... that staking chance is weight in POS this is not so simple if that would be like you are saying - none will ever stake with low amount of coins... I have one BC address with 100BC and it can stake once per week... Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Octavius on July 17, 2014, 08:12:59 PM More staking nodes you have then better for POS security. I see a big security issue here. - 1000 wallets holds a few coins and are installed on multiples computers or virtual machines and the biggest wallets are and will be not always online. That means these 1000 wallets will be able to validate/reject transactions as they want. In a POW coin like bitcoin, it is not the number that is important but the power of the computers. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 17, 2014, 08:16:42 PM There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. Yeah. Just because some coins have flaws that have been exploited does not mean that PoS as a whole can be dismissed. People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. A Nothing at Stake attack was done twice on Navajo, which is a PoS coin. That attacker, since he owned 50% of all navajocoins, can now doublespend, anytime he wants at any time in the future, just because he owned 50% of all coins temporarily....PoS=Piece of Shit. That's like saying Bitcoin and all other PoW coins are a piece of shit because lukejr 50% attacked coiledcoin a while back. In a way, but the difference is you can only doublespend on Bitcoin if you have 50% or above hashrate(even then its not 100% that youll succeed), with PoS, you can doublespend when you have 50% coins, and even when you dont have 50% of the coins anymore. So once you get 50%, you will always be able to doublespend, at any point in the future.. That's not accurate with regards to PoW. PoW is far, far less secure than you seem to think it is. See: http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/16/how-a-mining-monopoly-can-attack-bitcoin/ Specifically: 33-50% Selfish mining will yield profits above fair share even if Bitcoin is patched. Selfish miner need not be well-connected to the network to win; it can unilaterally earn more Bitcoins with selfish mining. No fix possible, ever. Double-spends against 6-confirmed transactions are feasible but not guaranteed to succeed. N-confirmations for large N will mitigate merchants' risk. >=50% Loss of decentralized trust narrative, inability to differentiate Bitcoin from competing technologies. Double-spends against 6-confirmed transactions are certain to succeed. Selected miner targeting: Pool can reject any selected block found by any competing miner. Selected transaction targeting: Pool can reject any selected transaction and keep it out of the blockchain. Selected address blocking: Pool can block Bitcoin flows in or out of selected addresses. Transaction Differentiation: Pool can deprioritize certain transactions and rely on other miners to mine them unless a (hefty) fee is attached. Fee Extortion: Pool can deny transactions from a particular address unless a (hefty) fee is attached to those transactions. Complete denial of service: Pool can ignore and orphan every single block found by competitors, thus stop all Bitcoin transactions. ____ So starting at 33% a miner can have a reasonable chance to double spend. And 50% is not just a chance at double spending. It's full blown control of the network on many levels as listed there. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 17, 2014, 08:30:37 PM More staking nodes you have then better for POS security. I see a big security issue here. - 1000 wallets holds a few coins and are installed on multiples computers or virtual machines and the biggest wallets are and will be not always online. That means these 1000 wallets will be able to validate/reject transactions as they want. In a POW coin like bitcoin, it is not the number that is important but the power of the computers. Minig power ( POW ) = Weight in POS ( weight = number of staking coins * coin age ) // coin age is number of days you wait till stake you get more days over time (in POS 2.0 coin age you get only being online offline coin age = 1 in POS1.0 you can get it offline and accumulate it) More staking nodes you have then better for POS security. Now more coins in different wallets better for network no mining concentration same like inPOW 100 small miners is better than 3 big miners. ( i was not to precesie in that before ) In POS big holders have to secure network elsewhere they will make insecure network - you hurt themself. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: sgi02 on July 17, 2014, 08:42:49 PM In POS2.0 you can not accumulating a lot of coin-days being offline. Only online coins can accumulate. At least with BC; I found it interesting that they were moving to SHA256 for POS 2.0 vs Scrypt. Not sure what the technical reasoning was behind this, but interesting none the less. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 18, 2014, 05:52:39 AM In POS2.0 you can not accumulating a lot of coin-days being offline. Only online coins can accumulate. At least with BC; I found it interesting that they were moving to SHA256 for POS 2.0 vs Scrypt. Not sure what the technical reasoning was behind this, but interesting none the less. D. Hash Function The original NovaCoin protocol called for the use of ”Scrypt” [5] as its Proof-Of-Work; also being used as the block hash. However there are some issues with that previous implementation. Using Scrypt offers no real advantage to Proof-Of-Stake; and is far slower than some alternatives. Since BlackCoin is no longer in PoW phase, the only major change would have to occur in the algorithm for determining the block hash. Therefore the block hash has been changed back to SHA256d. To reflect this the block version has been increased to version 7. PS: From my experience Blackhalo is using SHA256d so i speculate that scrypt have some limitations to use multi sing technology. ( 2 factor authentication in clients - in Halo addresses have 2 dimensions ) or is just slower. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: AliceWonder on July 18, 2014, 06:32:44 AM People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. Clearly? Seems it serves the interests of the wealthy over the poor (as to some PoW systems) but to state it is clearly superior, I assume you have some kind of mathematical proof? There were people who said the European brain was clearly superior to the African brain. When properly invested with science, that was clearly debunked. Statements like clearly need proof. Quote I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. I think you want to reduce excess, there are bigger sources of excess to worry about that most of you probably justify to yourselves. Quote Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. Yes, PoW is dominant yet there are several examples where PoS has resulted in serious issues. That's not a good argument to continue the PoS experiment. Quote It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. I think PoS is a buzz word, like cloud and many others. Buzz words are good for marketing, for the pump before the dump. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 18, 2014, 06:35:22 AM Yes, PoW is dominant yet there are several examples where PoS has resulted in serious issues. That's not a good argument to continue the PoS experiment. PoW coins have had a lot of serious issues too, but that doesn't stop people to continue the PoW experiments, so why stop with the PoS experiments, your statement sounds illogical :) Neither Bitcoin nor other PoW nor any PoS coins have entered mainstream yet, and if/when they do, people won't care what crypto to use as long as it's convenient (they won't be able to mine (in the case of PoW) any of it, buying already is/will be the only option for 99.9% of them), secure, has a lot of services on top. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Kellyjazz on July 18, 2014, 06:50:24 AM It is true that it's easier to attack PoS coin, but it's sorta impossible for new coin to use PoW,otherwise, those with ASIC miner will dominate the coin.
Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 18, 2014, 06:57:17 AM It is true that it's easier to attack PoS coin, but it's sorta impossible for new coin to use PoW,otherwise, those with ASIC miner will dominate the coin. There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. It's not impossible for new coins to use PoW, especially if they run on an algo that ASICs haven't been invented for yet, or something like Myriadcoin with 5 independant algos. Myriadcoin is not susceptible to 51% attack, but you never hear much about it. Why? Because most posts here are from miners, who don't give a flying fuck about the future of a coin, all they care about is profits from mining. They can't fairly and accurately assess fundamentals and advantages of a coin and don't even try to. They cry scam to everything that doesn't let them mine and dump for a profit. And naturally PoS coins don't let them mine and dump, hence they cry foul as soon as they see the word 'PoS' in a sentence.Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: sillybear on July 18, 2014, 07:11:34 AM It is true that it's easier to attack PoS coin, but it's sorta impossible for new coin to use PoW,otherwise, those with ASIC miner will dominate the coin. There are different implementations of PoS, some are vulnerable, some are more secure than PoW. It's not impossible for new coins to use PoW, especially if they run on an algo that ASICs haven't been invented for yet, or something like Myriadcoin with 5 independant algos. Myriadcoin is not susceptible to 51% attack, but you never hear much about it. Why? Because most posts here are from miners, who don't give a flying fuck about the future of a coin, all they care about is profits from mining. They can't fairly and accurately assess fundamentals and advantages of a coin and don't even try to. They cry scam to everything that doesn't let them mine and dump for a profit. And naturally PoS coins don't let them mine and dump, hence they cry foul as soon as they see the word 'PoS' in a sentence.If the Algo is support by ASIC, the coin will be dominated by ASIC. If it is supported by GPU, it would be dominated by big GPU farm If it is a CPU coin, you are invite botnets. If it is PoS, miners don't like it and big holder has advantage Yes, PoW is dominant yet there are several examples where PoS has resulted in serious issues. That's not a good argument to continue the PoS experiment. PoW has its vulnerabilities too. And cryptocurrency as a whole has lots of serious problems too (eg inputs.io, mtgox). Are you going to say since there are so much issues in crypto currency, we should stop "experiment" or using cryptocurrencies all together? Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 18, 2014, 07:13:09 AM If the Algo is support by ASIC, the coin will be dominated by ASIC. If it is supported by GPU, it would be dominated by big GPU farm If it is a CPU coin, you are invite botnets. If it is PoS, miners don't like it and big holder has advantage Yes, so basically you'll have to try very hard to invent a new coin to see a happy miner, looks like they don't like anything these days, haha Fortunately, the purpose of a coin is not to make miners happy. If someone invents a coin with the purpose to make miners happy, the coin will eventually be a failure. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Amph on July 18, 2014, 07:25:15 AM you can rely on hash limit, to take out big gpu farm and asic, new generation of coins should do hash limit, as a mandatory feature
Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 18, 2014, 07:43:45 AM you can rely on hash limit, to take out big gpu farm and asic, new generation of coins should do hash limit, as a mandatory feature All feature can be abused unfortunately...VPNs, Proxiex, VirtualMashines... there won't be a perfect world in crypto. ... They cry scam to everything that doesn't let them mine and dump for a profit. +1And naturally PoS coins don't let them mine and dump, hence they cry foul as soon as they see the word 'PoS' in a sentence. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Amph on July 18, 2014, 07:46:14 AM you can rely on hash limit, to take out big gpu farm and asic, new generation of coins should do hash limit, as a mandatory feature All feature can be abused unfortunately...VPNs, Proxiex, VirtualMashines... there won't be a perfect world in crypto. ... They cry scam to everything that doesn't let them mine and dump for a profit. +1And naturally PoS coins don't let them mine and dump, hence they cry foul as soon as they see the word 'PoS' in a sentence. you can ban suspicious account Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 18, 2014, 07:46:42 AM People should be working together to push PoS technology forward as it's clearly superior to PoW. Clearly? Seems it serves the interests of the wealthy over the poor (as to some PoW systems) but to state it is clearly superior, I assume you have some kind of mathematical proof? There were people who said the European brain was clearly superior to the African brain. When properly invested with science, that was clearly debunked. Statements like clearly need proof. Quote I find it hard to believe that someone could justify the excess of PoW if and when a PoS alternative exists. Other than making an argument for PoW purely out of self interest of course. I think you want to reduce excess, there are bigger sources of excess to worry about that most of you probably justify to yourselves. Quote Right now PoW is dominant. And there are some PoS currencies like NXT that are progressing well and appear to have a good chance of solidifying their place as the first secure decentralised PoS currency. Time will tell how it plays out, but it's looking good for PoS thus far I think. Yes, PoW is dominant yet there are several examples where PoS has resulted in serious issues. That's not a good argument to continue the PoS experiment. Quote It's possible that PoS isn't feasible but so far even for 'Nothing at Stake' attacks, V. Buterin and Come-From-Beyond seemed to agree that there was a theoretical solution. And that seems to be the main issue right now against PoS. I think PoS is a buzz word, like cloud and many others. Buzz words are good for marketing, for the pump before the dump. I think it's self evident that all else being equal a PoS system that uses a fraction of the energy that a PoW system does is superior. Is all else equal yet? No it's not, which is why we should be progressing towards a state where PoS is tested and demonstrably secure. If it's not possible then that will be shown over time. At this point it's looking very good for PoS. If some of the best minds in the cryptocurrency arena are debating the issue and coming up with issues that seem to have apparent solutions then it appears that progress is being made. If someone told you ten years ago that they were working on a trustless decentralised digital currency you might have thought it was too good to be true or just buzz words as you say. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: AliceWonder on July 18, 2014, 09:16:33 AM If it is a CPU coin, you are invite botnets. I believe botnets are only an issue if your coin is valuable enough as they aren't cheap to run, which probably means a 51% isn't obtainable by a botnet as cpu coins with lots of value would tend to have a lot of users who mine. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: AliceWonder on July 18, 2014, 09:18:53 AM Quote I think it's self evident that all else being equal a PoS system that uses a fraction of the energy that a PoW system does is superior. Yes, a PoS system will use less energy, but that doesn't make it superior. 3g cell towers use less energy than 4g cell towers. Which kind of cell service do you prefer? Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 18, 2014, 09:23:02 AM Yes, a PoS system will use less energy, but that doesn't make it superior. 3g cell towers use less energy than 4g cell towers. Which kind of cell service do you prefer? If 3g can do all the same 4g can do and even much more and use less energy, which would you prefer? Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: newuser01 on July 18, 2014, 10:11:20 AM PoS is garbage. The only reason for its existence is to separate fools from their money. QFT Yes, a PoS system will use less energy, but that doesn't make it superior. 3g cell towers use less energy than 4g cell towers. Which kind of cell service do you prefer? If 3g can do all the same 4g can do and even much more and use less energy, which would you prefer? they can't and don't, your argument is invalid. (fyi 4g wouldn't exist if that was the case) Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 18, 2014, 10:18:06 AM Yes, a PoS system will use less energy, but that doesn't make it superior. 3g cell towers use less energy than 4g cell towers. Which kind of cell service do you prefer? If 3g can do all the same 4g can do and even much more and use less energy, which would you prefer? Pow coins just waste power for nothing whole job which they do have no real sense. In POW higher power consumption doesn't mean that BTC is 1000x faster than it was 4years ago... but it consume 10000x more power that energy is wasted !... Now POW vs POW is more like 100W lamp vs 10W LED light and same amount of LUX in output in POS tablet = big GPU/Asic farm in POW where is future ? BOTH devices can do SAME job... ...in what direction world is going is obvious. Here ? POW https://i.imgur.com/xvE6YHS.jpg Or: POS http://mytabletguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/tablet-vs-Smartphone1.jpg Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: devphp on July 18, 2014, 10:24:23 AM If 3g can do all the same 4g can do and even much more and use less energy, which would you prefer? they can't and don't, your argument is invalid. (fyi 4g wouldn't exist if that was the case) 3g and 4g were figurative here: 3g = gen 2.0 poS coins 4g = legacy PoW coins. gen 2.0 PoS coins can and do more than legacy PoW coins, and use less energy too. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 18, 2014, 11:35:41 AM If 3g can do all the same 4g can do and even much more and use less energy, which would you prefer? they can't and don't, your argument is invalid. (fyi 4g wouldn't exist if that was the case) 3g and 4g were figurative here: 3g = gen 2.0 poS coins 4g = legacy PoW coins. gen 2.0 PoS coins can and do more than legacy PoW coins, and use less energy too. Yes. And remember the root statement of this train of thought was my "all else being equal" when considering PoS and PoW. And by that we're talking about a hypothetical future scenario(which I think is likely) where PoS has gone through the motions and is proven to be a secure and viable system like PoW is already. It seems that PoS is very close to being there. Just a little bit more time and full implementation of hypothetical solutions to the problems that people debate about today and we're almost there. Then we'll need some time to let it get thoroughly tested and then the cryptocurrency community can move on from PoW. Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: XbladeX on July 18, 2014, 11:42:20 AM .... gen 2.0 PoS coins can and do more than legacy PoW coins, and use less energy too. To be fair any of those feature can be done for POW coin too difference is that in POW coin developers don't have so much motivation to hard work because miners can dump on them... and devaluate their work while POS developers are building their kingdoms with vision in head. POS coins usually like to make shock features which leads to PUMP but that feature in reality can be ported between any other POW / POS coin on existing protocol. DRK and anon is great example of feature race... On blockchain you can make many magic tweaks also assent exchange p2p smart contracts ext... gen 2.0 POS in real as "features" doesn't matter so much in that case need fast protocol, low energy cost and low resource requirements and good security those are challenges ! not pump features who no one in real use... Title: Re: Are PoS coins secure and reliable? Post by: Este Nuno on July 18, 2014, 11:53:24 AM .... gen 2.0 PoS coins can and do more than legacy PoW coins, and use less energy too. To be fair any of those feature can be done for POW coin too difference is that in POW coin developers don't have so much motivation to hard work because miners can dump on them... and devaluate their work while POS developers are building their kingdoms with vision in head. POS coins usually like to make shock features which leads to PUMP but that feature in reality can be ported between any other POW / POS coin on existing protocol. DRK and anon is great example of feature race... On blockchain you can make many magic tweaks also assent exchange p2p smart contracts ext... gen 2.0 POS in real as "features" doesn't matter so much in that case need fast protocol, low energy cost and low resource requirements and good security those are challenges ! not pump features who no one in real use... I do agree that features and the core of the protocol are entirely separate things. But not all features are worthless necesarrily. We'll see over time what features real people will use and which are just for show. But yes, I agree with you that: "fast protocol, low energy cost and low resource requirements and good security" Are the most important things. |
